Newbie 1562: Muses and Fates GAME OVER

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1.4

This sketch contains the necessary elements to identify Urania: A writing implement and a globe. Some of her other common accoutrements are missing. The presentation is a little unusual.

Urania was the youngest of the nine Muses.

2birds1stone

(3): TheBreeze, RayFrost, Count Dooku

Count Dooku

(1): 2birds1stone

TheBreeze

(1): VictorDeAngelo

Not Voting

(3): deathfisaro, Tammy, firebound12

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: December 29, Midnight Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2014-12-28 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[Dani]

...
There is also his behavior disconnect across posts 18 and 20.

What are the behavior disconnects there?

It's just looked like he provided the information the questions were asking for, then fifteen minutes later added that they sounded like anti-town questions to him. It didn't seem internally consistent to me at the. Of course, given his relatively small amount of doubt at the questions and the fifteen minute interval between answering them and doubting them, he might have just not realized until after the fact, or he didn't think it was

that

suspicious.

I

didn't see the questions as suspicious at all until the SE's voiced their concerns. I would say that this,

He played in an anti-town manner with full knowledge that his play was anti-town.

is not necessarily true. Basing a scumread on him off of that event would be grasping at straws.
However, that doesn't mean I don't suspect him anymore. My problem is I don't know why he was cautious about stating his suspicions. I am not sure if he is still inexperienced to the point of not trusting his own conclusions, or if he is cautious simply because he's scum and anxious to not stand out. Post 73 makes me suspect him further, since he is most certainly saying that he's certain about 2b1s, without saying why. There's also the fact that a large chunk of his posts are content-less and inconsequential, explain very little, and feel passive rather than active. If this style of play is similar to how he played in his first game (as mafia), then I'd be almost completely certain of his being scum. That said,
VOTE: Count Dooku

[TheBreeze]

I believe I have a question that needs answering but I'll get to that right after I get this off of my chest:

Also, dooku, if you were told that 2b1s is actually town (mod confirmed information, let's say), where would you place your vote and why?

Well, I don't know.

We are only on page 3. Most of the players didn't do anything alignment indicative.

How do you not know? You voted for me on page 1 (post 24) because you did not like my RQS and had some sort of scum-read on me.

Well, if I think about it, I don't like the first RQS question either.
That is a) useless or b) role hunting.

This is not a

strong

scum-read, but for now:VOTE: The Breeze
And I am waiting for some IC posts. What's up Tammy?

I interrupt this as you having a slight scum-read on me and that contradicts your response to RayFrost's question. Why did you not tell him that you would hypothetically vote for ME when I supposedly did something alignment indicative.

Dani, what is your take on my post here which was directed at Dooku?

If this style of play is similar to how he played in his first game (as mafia), then I'd be almost completely certain of his being scum. That said,
VOTE: Count Dooku

Can you provide a link to his first Mafia game? Also why did you cast a vote against him before presenting a comparison between his 2 games?

[RayFrost]

[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6361738]Here is the first dooku game[/url

On phone, can't post replies for the moment.

[TheBreeze]

Link doesn't work

[RayFrost]

Newbie 1551, modded by micc

[fferyllt]

Dani is v/la due to site access issues. Probably for 2-3 days.

[VictorDeAngelo]

It's kind of sad though that we are only a day into the first day phrase and I'm already in L-1. It's pretty sketchy that you knew I already had 2 votes against me but decided to bandwagon ontop of that before I even had an oppurtunity do anything @Dooku and Victor

Yeah I missed this, mostly because I was too inept to even vote the right person.

Guys I really think we should keep track of the vote count and declare L-1s.
I read Breeze's questions and didn't like them (not just the questions themselves but the order of questions), so I thought I'd put pressure by voting him. Then while I was re-reading page 1, vote count 1.2 was posted and I avoided hammering by a few minutes (part of it would have been my fault for not keeping count myself and relying on other players and mod to do it for others). So I'm saying we should start doing it.

TheBreeze

is at

L-1

, please declare intent to hammer and hear his defense first.

edit: became

L-2

while writing this message.

When Dooku unvoted did you consider voting Breeze to keep up pressure?

Yeah I'm keeping a voting pattern record and 12 is interesting. 2b1s made it feel like an RVS but if you take the context out it is an OMGUS. And at the same time he brings up hypocopping. The focus of that post is not very clear.
Also I don't like people voting vaguely. RVS, making a reasoned case against, and OMGUS should not be mixed or vague. He can lead a mislynch and later when accused defend self by claiming that it was just an RVS or OMGUS (whichever he chooses) and other players pushed the wagon. I think it's for our benefit to state potential appeal to such right now so there is little merit to actually use it in the future.

Common practice is rvs, and I believe the vote was rvs here. Note that rvs here does not necessarily mean random but mostly refers to any early non serious vote. Players frequently find jokey reasons for their rvs (for example voting someone for something that happened in a previous game).

I like Breeze's 51 so,

UNVOTE:

How would the semantics not matter? --- "I disagree with the

theory

behind these questions" is very different from "This ONE SPECIFIC QUESTION seems to come from a SCUM MOTIVATED MINDSET"

Arguing that the difference between the two doesn't matter is strange to me. Just bizarre.

The questions can't come from a scum-motivated mindset unless RQS is inherently anti-town, given that he picked in part on the "useless questions" reason.

This is just incorrect logic. Not liking 2birds here.

I am just getting the feeling that you are buddying up with him. You voted with him and now you are defending him.

Oh, really? You think that a player with that much eperience like Ray would buddy with his scummate? Really? Well I am not scum, and I think Ray isn't scum either.

I don't think Breeze was saying that he was buddying you because you were scum together, I think he was saying that you were town he was trying to get on side. Though it's interesting your mind went there.

Here we go! I am content with maintaining my random vote until I change it, which might be fairly soon depending on how the conversation with Dooku goes. I have mixed feelings about 2b1s. I dislike his open display of negativity/sarcasm (however you want to look at his personality), but that's not enough for me to get a good read on him concerning his alignment. I would have to analyze his posts some more

You seem to claiming a null read here. Why leave your vote on the 2birds wagon when you don't have a clear scumread on him?

Dooku answered questions that he outright stated to be anti-town.

He played in an anti-town manner with full knowledge that his play was anti-town.

This isn't rocket science.

Even if we weren't talking about a newbie slot, your really overstating what happened here and I'm concerned that on page 4 you haven't developed any reads beyond what happened page 1.

Meh, you were able to produce a t/s list when asked. Perhaps I spoke too soon. Hmmmmm.

I'm getting the feeling RayFrost and Breeze are town. I'm seeing some scum in 2birds at this junction, but he has a fair few votes and right now, I'm most concerned with the player who seems to be flying under the radar.

VOTE: Firebound

@Firebound

- I think your scummiest player in the game. Do you disagree? If so who is scummier and why?

[RayFrost]

If you could lay out why you think firebound is the scummiest player in the game, I could see myself finding some reason to put stock behind your vote and not thinking that it's scummy that you're avoiding the current wagon while calling it a good choice as if you want to distance yourself from a potential lynch if it happens without you but keep the option of flipping over if you see a good opportunity.

[Count Dooku]

I believe I have a question that needs answering but I'll get to that right after I get this off of my chest:

Also, dooku, if you were told that 2b1s is actually town (mod confirmed information, let's say), where would you place your vote and why?

Well, I don't know.

We are only on page 3. Most of the players didn't do anything alignment indicative.

How do you not know? You voted for me on page 1 (post 24) because you did not like my RQS and had some sort of scum-read on me.

Well, if I think about it, I don't like the first RQS question either.
That is a) useless or b) role hunting.

This is not a

strong

scum-read, but for now:VOTE: The Breeze
And I am waiting for some IC posts. What's up Tammy?

I interrupt this as you having a slight scum-read on me and that contradicts your response to RayFrost's question. Why did you not tell him that you would hypothetically vote for ME when I supposedly did something alignment indicative.

Oh, man...really? Are you serious?
Please read the thread again.
(Help: 64 is the key)

[Count Dooku]

False. See post 20, I stated there, that I don't like his questions. Funny to see, that you even try to lie to say something that you found scummy. The sad thing, that nobody noticed your lie up to now.
VOTE: 2birds1stone for now.

That's even worse, though.

You answered them with full knowledge of the fact that they're bad. This means you intentionally shitted up the thread by replying to them.

To be honest, I... don't see any reason not to lynch you after outright admitting that you always felt they were bad questions but answered anyway. I almost want to call it a scumclaim.

It was flat black and white "THIS SINGLE QUESTION THAT IS QUOTED ABOVE THIS COMMENT SEEMS SCUMMY TO ME"

Well, if I think about it, I don't like the first RQS question either.
That is a) useless or b) role hunting.

The word "useless" is everything here. He has said that the question (and by extension, other questions) are useless (in addition to the first question being potential rolefishing). To believe questions useless having answered them is not consistent play for town.

Nice misrep.
I never said all of them is useless/bad. If you look at my answers a little bit closer, you will see, that I didn't give normal answers to useless/bad questions (1. and 4.)

[Count Dooku]

Dooku answered questions that he outright stated to be anti-town.

He played in an anti-town manner with full knowledge that his play was anti-town.

This isn't rocket science.

Again, I deliberately didn't answer the 1st and the 4th "normally"...

[Count Dooku]

It's just looked like he provided the information the questions were asking for, then fifteen minutes later added that they sounded like anti-town questions to him.

See 110 and 111

Post 73 makes me suspect him further, since he is most certainly saying that he's certain about 2b1s, without saying why.

Jeez... This is ridiculous. He a) want to lynch me, because I put Breeze at L-1 on accident and/or b) Because I answered the questions that I found anti town. And this is false. (110 and 11 again). Plus see the beginning of 62.

There's also the fact that a large chunk of his posts are content-less and inconsequential, explain very little, and feel passive rather than active.

Big lie. I may or may not the one, who posts the most content, but still I am above average. For exmple, I am pretty sure, I gave more content than you.

Dani is v/la due to site access issues. Probably for 2-3 days.

I hate it. He placed a vote on me without a valid reason, and he won't come back within the next 2-3 days...

[Count Dooku]

and 11 again

EBWOP 111

[TheBreeze]

Reading through Newbie 1551 right now. I will feel more confident about my vote switch to Dooku, if I find something useful in there to compare to this game.

Oh, man...really? Are you serious?
Please read the thread again.
(Help: 64 is the key)

I did. So you are saying that because of my post, you dropped any suspicion you had on me?

[firebound12]

I'm getting the feeling RayFrost and Breeze are town. I'm seeing some scum in 2birds at this junction, but he has a fair few votes and right now, I'm most concerned with the player who seems to be flying under the radar.

VOTE: Firebound

@Firebound

- I think your scummiest player in the game. Do you disagree? If so who is scummier and why?

Like I said before, my ability to lie is abysmal and my ability to read between the lines is worse. I didn't post that much because I don't think I can contribute anything to my fellow town, especially since:

Ugh, don't make me actually read posts and form opinions.
Firebound is fluffposting a lot and it annoys me. Once we have a few scum lynches under our belt, I wouldn't mind her for PL.

apparently whatever contribution I give is fluffposting, even though I try my best (I'm not used to this kind of discussion, again my apologies).

Victor, you only voted for me because I'm the one flying under the radar, so I do respect your choice. On the other hand, I do not like the way 2b1s talks about me since he's attacking my personality more than what I post (imo, and I'm also very sensitive). I have a FoS on him but it's not enough to place a vote yet.

Since I don't contribute much to the discussion I'd rather not vote unless I'm super certain that someone is scum.

[Tammy]

I'm still reading and man it's tougher to follow what everyone says.

Of course the other side of the story would be it was a trap. Given how often random hammers take place in newbie games it could be as easy as setting up a trap and just hoping and waiting.
But Dooku in 31 unvoted

4 minutes

after TheBreeze's post. If it was a trap, Dooku could have pretended to be offline and keep hoping that someone will bite it. His posting hours indicate that if he didn't unvote immediately, he'd be safe to keep the trap for 18~20 more hours with zero suspicion (ISO him and notice the posting times) but he didn't.
The conclusion I derive from this action aligns with my initial feeling that Dooku simply made a mistake. So I withdraw my vote from Dooku. It was an RVS but with 2b1s making a case on Dooku for reasons opposite of mine I can't stay there.

You do have a point here with the timing. If dooku was scum he wouldnt take off his vote that early.

since we're out of RVS, I think it's safe for me to take off my first vote.

UNVOTE:

Why wouldn't he take his vote off that early?

[Tammy]

I believe I have a question that needs answering but I'll get to that right after I get this off of my chest:

Also, dooku, if you were told that 2b1s is actually town (mod confirmed information, let's say), where would you place your vote and why?

Well, I don't know.

We are only on page 3. Most of the players didn't do anything alignment indicative.

How do you not know? You voted for me on page 1 (post 24) because you did not like my RQS and had some sort of scum-read on me.

Well, if I think about it, I don't like the first RQS question either.
That is a) useless or b) role hunting.

This is not a

strong

scum-read, but for now:VOTE: The Breeze
And I am waiting for some IC posts. What's up Tammy?

I interrupt this as you having a slight scum-read on me and that contradicts your response to RayFrost's question. Why did you not tell him that you would hypothetically vote for ME when I supposedly did something alignment indicative.

This is a really good point, and I'm embarrassed at how long it took me to understand it (my brain probably won't start functioning properly for another couple days). I thought dooku's response in Post 109 was a bit odd tonally. Post 64 wasn't necessarily clear that her answer negated his earlier scum read. If he'd have said he didn't really suspect breeze in his response, it would have also been clear.

[Tammy]

@Death
Could you answer Tammy's question?

I assume the question is:

What was it about the order of the questions you didn't like?

Regarding

1.) There are some interesting roles here. Which one did you want to get?
2.) What kind of onsite and/or offsite experience do you have with this game?
3.) Do you have a survivalist mindset when playing this type of game? If so, has that hurt your game in the past?
4.) On a scale of 1 to 10, how well can you lie? Why did you select that number?
5.) How often have you checked this thread in the past 14+ hours? Why did you decide not post anything else?

It didn't occur to me until firebound12 in 34 answered vigilante to the 1st question.
If you answer a role that's not in the Matrix6, obviously you have more experience than many of us (because the only roles I played offline with my friends were Cop and Doctor even in a large game like 14 players we'd only have 1 Cop and 1 Doc, and new players very likely will be limited to Matrix6). So it's logical to ask for mafia experience first, at least to me if I were to come up with a list of RQs.

So the impression I got was the 1st question was intended for role-fishing. But if you ask a single question about everyone's desired role that looks suspicious so he needed extra questions. 2nd question is a null question regarding mafia experience. And 3rd and 4th questions, combined with the 1st question feels like "now slip your role to me, and also tell me how likely you'll claim it under pressure, oh on top of that tell me how easy it would be to attack you for falseclaiming." And ends with the 5th question which is again, not alignment indicative.
Just like how good dessert ends a meal with good impressions, I feel like the 5th question ends RQs with a null vibe. But alternation of role fishing and null questions feel strategically placed. Maybe I'm thinking too hard but I recently watched the Liar Games (I remember someone here liked it too, don't remember who =P) and people can be manipulative in so many ways.

Overall, I'm sensing a "victim hunting" vibe to it more than scum hunting value. Do I find it scummy enough to vote Breeze? Probably not now because my eyes are on 2b1s at the moment. But these RQs are in the back of my mind.

The board is moving faster than I thought and I lack the concentration to read everything at the moment, but I'm busy whole day tomorrow. It's a dilemma. Maybe I'll check again at night.

Yep, that's what I was wondering. I like this response. I wasn't expecting something this in depth.

[Tammy]

I don't know where I'm walling. My real walls in all my other games are offended that these rather short posts are considered walls. >_>

I guess the walls are why 2b1s missed my questions, but he answered them elsewhere, so I got it.

I'm not sure where he considers fire bound to be fluff posting, and hate the thing about him being a pl. this is a learning environment where people are getting accustomed to the game. I'm not sure what that says about his alignment, meh.

Ray frost has a point about breeze not liking 2b1s due to his personality rather than his posts, but I'm kinda liking her approach and liked her question to dooku.

I have some thoughts on a couple other things but am waiting to see how a couple things play out.

[RayFrost]

While you're here, tammy, would you be so kind as to put a vote down?

Or is that one of your thoughts that you're waiting to put out there while the "couple things" play out?

[Tammy]

Yeah, I'm one of those annoying stingy with my vote people. I'll vote soon enough.

[RayFrost]

Just checking.

[firebound12]

I'm still reading and man it's tougher to follow what everyone says.

Of course the other side of the story would be it was a trap. Given how often random hammers take place in newbie games it could be as easy as setting up a trap and just hoping and waiting.
But Dooku in 31 unvoted

4 minutes

after TheBreeze's post. If it was a trap, Dooku could have pretended to be offline and keep hoping that someone will bite it. His posting hours indicate that if he didn't unvote immediately, he'd be safe to keep the trap for 18~20 more hours with zero suspicion (ISO him and notice the posting times) but he didn't.
The conclusion I derive from this action aligns with my initial feeling that Dooku simply made a mistake. So I withdraw my vote from Dooku. It was an RVS but with 2b1s making a case on Dooku for reasons opposite of mine I can't stay there.

You do have a point here with the timing. If dooku was scum he wouldnt take off his vote that early.

since we're out of RVS, I think it's safe for me to take off my first vote.

UNVOTE:

Why wouldn't he take his vote off that early?

On phone, can't cut paragraph

Because dooku could have been counting on someone accidently hammering thebreeze early on.

[2birds1stone]

I'm not sure where he considers fire bound to be fluff posting, and hate the thing about him being a pl. this is a learning environment where people are getting accustomed to the game. I'm not sure what that says about his alignment, meh.

Sorry, I guess I can endeavour to be less vitriolic.

Ugh, I don't know how to say this nicely. I look at firebound's iso from before I made the fluffposting comment and see RQS, Hey that might have been OMGUS but I'm keeping my random vote anyway, and unvote. This... I guess it's not alignment-indicative, but it's not really content. There's no visible attempt to ascertain player motivations, there are no committed accusations, it's very, well... actually, what the hell, let's say it's scum.

If Dooku became mod-confirmed, firebrand would be my vote.