Newbie 1596: Exotic Birds (Game Over)

[Wanderer-nl]

Hello all, lets start this off.

VOTE: saad
Because your name is shortest.

[Wanderer-nl]

saad's reason to vote looked a little too fabricated to me. Definitely on the scum-side of null for me. But I am considering the fact that he's new and that the first random vote fell on him, which could have scared him a little, so I'm very curious to read more from him. So my vote stays for now.

BBT wants to get out of RVS, that looks very townie to me.

Skold isn't in a rush to get out of RVS, and at this stage this doesn't really alarm me. Not much more content to work with. Still null.

About plotinus: let me say right now we just finished a game together (I'm not a big believer in meta myself but if anyone is curious, here it is: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=61104)
@lotinus: I don't really understand what you mean with town voting block. Didn't want to ask before you got an answer, but that is still not making it too clear to me. And I also can't find it at the wiki.

Everyone else still reads null to me, so I hope they start posting (more) soon.

[Wanderer-nl]

That puts saad at L-1

[Wanderer-nl]

unvote

[Wanderer-nl]

Not that my read has changed but I'd hate to see day 1 end this quickly.

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: saad

Back at L-1 again.

Claim.

[Wanderer-nl]

And no quickhammer.
I have a bad experience and will want to lynch a quickhammer very much the next day.

[Wanderer-nl]

i was looking forward to this game too

now can someone unvote me so we can discuss, i don't want to sign up for another game and risk flipping scum.

I don't like this, feels like an AtE.

I think saad's reads list could have been made by both town or scum.
@saad: why are you townreading BBT?

[Wanderer-nl]

i was looking forward to this game too

now can someone unvote me so we can discuss, i don't want to sign up for another game and risk flipping scum.

I don't like this, feels like an AtE.

I think saad's reads list could have been made by both town or scum.
@saad: why are you townreading BBT?

Probably because they're scumbuddies.

How do you even explain BBT pushing this bandwagon before anyone actually scumread saad? (Remember, my vote was made in random and later stayed there not-so-random)
I doubted my gut too much last game, I'm not going to make the mistake of doing that again.

[Wanderer-nl]

unvote

[Wanderer-nl]

Because my gut told me to.

This whole situation is starting to feel awkward and I feel the best move I can make right now is to unvote saad. We've accomplished our goal. I'm still feeling uneasy about saad, but I'd like to get back to that later.

[Wanderer-nl]

saad's reason to vote looked a little too fabricated to me. Definitely on the scum-side of null for me. But I am considering the fact that he's new and that the first random vote fell on him, which could have scared him a little, so I'm very curious to read more from him. So my vote stays for now.

BBT wants to get out of RVS, that looks very townie to me.

Skold isn't in a rush to get out of RVS, and at this stage this doesn't really alarm me. Not much more content to work with. Still null.

About plotinus: let me say right now we just finished a game together (I'm not a big believer in meta myself but if anyone is curious, here it is: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=61104)
@lotinus: I don't really understand what you mean with town voting block. Didn't want to ask before you got an answer, but that is still not making it too clear to me. And I also can't find it at the wiki.

Everyone else still reads null to me, so I hope they start posting (more) soon.

This is town.

From an IC pov it's nice to read this.
Otherwise this feels really odd to me.

[Wanderer-nl]

Skold, what do you think of all this? I know it's the first reallife day of the game still but some of us are already starting to form early opinions. What do you think of BBT's pushes on saad and now mofo? What do you think of the way saad and mofo have been behaving?

Anyway, I'm ready to use my vote too to see how he reacts to some pressure, since he's closer to the bottom of my reads list. though I do think it would be suicidal to do this to everybody one at a time leading to a massclaim on day 1.

VOTE: Mofonugen

pedit: hi skold! You can answer tomorrow, it's ok.

That was the hammer. Great.

[Wanderer-nl]

BBT why did you not state L-1?
plotinus why no count?

[Wanderer-nl]

Too late. Nothing can be done anymore. We are in twilight.

[Wanderer-nl]

plotinus what happened to not voting someone right before going away/to bed?
BBT should definitely be looked at, saad and plotinus too.

[Wanderer-nl]

He also had 2 votes from RVS still on him.

Pedit: BBT never stated L-1

[Wanderer-nl]

My fucking gods. I go to bed and wake up with a new, dead, wagon. Who hammered/initiated the wagon? I'm feeling that they're the scum.

Why were you going to vote for mofo?
You stated intent to hammer saad, do you believe his claim? What do you think about the bandwagon falling apart?

[Wanderer-nl]

The first two votes on mofo were RVS votes from argos and singer, which is why I forgot about them. If we don't count those, then saad started it, Blue, who is confirmed town, jumped on to pressure mofo but didn't say it was L-1 (possible they miscounted too), and then I hammered by mistake.

Why do you think BBT was killed?

[Wanderer-nl]

The first two votes on mofo were RVS votes from argos and singer, which is why I forgot about them. If we don't count those, then saad started it, Blue, who is confirmed town, jumped on to pressure mofo but didn't say it was L-1 (possible they miscounted too), and then I hammered by mistake.

Why do you think BBT was killed?

I'm not sure, because either of us would have been decent choices for a mislynch today, and possibly one of us today the other of us tomorrow: BBT for not saying mofo was at L-1 and me for derphammering, but it seems like BBT was an experienced player with an aggressive playstyle who was doing a lot of scumhunting and they may have feared BBT would be onto them soon enough. If our IC is innocent I'd expect to lose her next, because I expect her to be the next best scumhunter and one of our best hopes of a town win.

At the end of the day, I was a little suspicious of BBT because they seemed so sure that saad was scum, and I thought that only scum could be sure of anything on page 1, but I was wrong. My derphammer really hurt all of us: town didn't have enough time to get to know each other, town power roles didn't have enough time to figure out who would be good targets for their night actions, and the only good side is that mafia barely had a chance to get to do any power role hunting and landed on a vanilla townie, but that doesn't make up for it.

What do you think?

Now that you know BBT was genuine, how do you feel about saad?
I think BBT could have been setup as a misslynch, but maybe we're dealing with newbscum that are afraid to take that risk.
I think Skold and saad are 2 players to be watched.

[Wanderer-nl]

It will depend on how they behave today. I think it can be hard to distinguish between newbie and scummy -- to use examples from our last game, ducks who seemed (to me) scum but was newbie and mainez who seemed newbie but was scum, but it's worth keeping an eye on them.

people only wanna play as town, if i replace i'd likely get a scum slot from a guy who lurked because he flipped scum.

So what I'm reading from this is that Saad doesn't want to be mafia, he wants to be town, and

that if he were mafia he would lurk until he was replaced.

I disagree with his premise about what other people want to play, but do think that he believes it. Him not lurking is not evidence either way (because he could have been lying), but if he does start lurking after this I'll be more suspicious of him.

I think if we're dealing with two newbie scum, then it's 2 of [skold, saad, argos] (mostly by process of elimination on "newbie" and "scum"). We've only seen 9 posts from Skold so far, and only a few of substance. We've seen even less of Argos (just 2 posts). It is entirely possible they were sleeping or at work like singer during the entire 7 hour day, so complete null read on them.

House said something last game -- even though he was scum I think he was telling the truth about this part -- about a good way to distinguish IC town from IC scum, so I think we can fairly confidently wait and see what will happen with singer and how she plays this week. If singer is town then I do think we're dealing with 2 newbie scum. If singer is not town it is entirely too early to be guessing who her buddy is but probably one of the candidates for newbie scum.

Anyway, I'd trust your instincts about who to watch.

who even is our remaining SE? *checks* oh, Skold. But he's only been on the site for a couple months so he might still feel like a newer player? I looked over his completed games very briefly and I didn't find a completed scum game, so if he is scum then i'll count him in the newbie category.

About the bolded part: Where did saad say that?

I feel you make a rather one-sided conclusion. It makes me feel the same as what you did with Mainez: you believed her so much about afk due to school that you wouldn't really consider her as scum until you no longer could get around it, while not lying about being afk is not allignment-indicative (since you brought it up I am going back to it) Instead of scumtunnelling, you are towntunnelling.
Maybe saad wants us to think he'd lurk/replace out if he rolled scum. I'm leaning that way at least for now.

About trusting my instincts, just want to make clear I'm interpreting right: do you mean you agree with my instincts or are you telling me to trust them?

[Wanderer-nl]

ffs i was trying to protect him.

VOTE: Plotinus

also this is why RVS is stupid.

Excuse me?

[Wanderer-nl]

@saad: how do you mean you tried to protect BBT?

[Wanderer-nl]

So what's with the vote on plotinus?

[Wanderer-nl]

(partial quote)

I feel you make a rather one-sided conclusion. It makes me feel the same as what you did with Mainez: you believed her so much about afk due to school that you wouldn't really consider her as scum until you no longer could get around it, while not lying about being afk is not allignment-indicative (since you brought it up I am going back to it) Instead of scumtunnelling, you are towntunnelling.
Maybe saad wants us to think he'd lurk/replace out if he rolled scum. I'm leaning that way at least for now.

@plotinus: it's not my place to tell you how to play this game. I did want to bring this to your attention but now that I'm reading it again I feel like I'm being condescending. I can be paranoid about things and I don't want to 'infect' others (in this case you) with that.

[Wanderer-nl]

Skold, what do you think of all this? I know it's the first reallife day of the game still but some of us are already starting to form early opinions. What do you think of BBT's pushes on saad and now mofo? What do you think of the way saad and mofo have been behaving?

Anyway, I'm ready to use my vote too to see how he reacts to some pressure, since he's closer to the bottom of my reads list. though I do think it would be suicidal to do this to everybody one at a time leading to a massclaim on day 1.

VOTE: Mofonugen

pedit: hi skold! You can answer tomorrow, it's ok.

Why did you think mofo needed pressure?
In 179 you say you thought BBT was suspicious for being so sure about saad but your play hardly shows you did d1. You also blindly followed him voting for mofo.

[Wanderer-nl]

@plotinus: I asked you why

you

thought mofo needed pressure. What I get from your 183 is an explanation on how you thought (and think) about BBT, that's not what I asked.
What was it that made you feel comfortable to sheep BBT's pressure-vote on mofo?

@Argos: Hi, nice to see you! Yeah so day 1 happened pretty quickly and I can understand you don't have any real reads so far.
Reading back, do you see any reason for mofo being under pressure like that?

I had expected singer, wyvernite and skold in by now as well but sadly they're still shimmering in absence (it's a dutch saying)

[Wanderer-nl]

So 125 did nothing for you?

Day 1 wasn't because of early voting, it was because of carelessness. TWO people voted without checking/counting votes first. Shit happens, no need to apologize more, but don't blame early voting for it.

[Wanderer-nl]

You can send him a pm if you think you can't ask in thread.

[Wanderer-nl]

At the time, I thought BBT's point was better, 125 didn't convince me but it should have. Looking at it again, this quote from mofo jumps out at me: "I was planning to call you out no matter who you jumped to." it seemed like he was saying that he'd be suspicious of BBT no matter what.


Yes, it was carelessness, and that's separate from early voting. The earliness is why my feelings about everyone were still weak, in hindsight perhaps too weak to justify voting at all.

I guess I figured (sheeping BBT) that we'd get him up to L-1 and he'd squirm like saad did and then we'd be able to compare them with each other.

Skold, how are you doing? Who are you townreading at the moment?

The problem is what exactly did we get from saad squirming? A vanilla townie claim? I may be missing some theory point but the idea of cornering everyone one by one and threatening them with a lynch if they don't claim good for town at all as I think it's more likely for a power role to reveal themselves under pressure than scum just going "ok I'm scum."

"I don't find the idea of cornering everyone one by one and threatening them with a lynch good for town at all" sorry, kind of confusing the way I wrote it at first.

There was literally only a little over an hour between saad's claim and plotinus' unexpected hammer on mofo. There never was time to get something decent out of saad.

[Wanderer-nl]

(...)

Actually, I don't believe him at all. He claimed villager. It clearly states in the setup and the sample role PM's that the role is called Vanilla Townie.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

(...)

Could you elaborate on why you chose to add this quote to your post?

[Wanderer-nl]

Yes, but why move on to pressuring mofo so quickly when we hadn't gotten much out of saad? I suppose it's a moot point now, because that sudden shift in 'pressure' came from one of the only confirmed townies thus far (BBT).

Rereading that part of the thread, it sort of makes sense. There was high activity so things got worked out quickly. saad thought BBT was tunnelling too much and BBT agreed and later unvoted.

It would be a ballsy play to call anyone else like that. As far as your alignment, I am inclined to believe saad that you are town.

You're inclined to believe someone you're scum-reading?

What?

He was still questioning saad at the time too.

Then this

It would be a ballsy play to call anyone else like that. As far as your alignment, I am inclined to believe saad that you are town.

You're inclined to believe someone you're scum-reading?

What?

I guess believe is the wrong word. I agree with him (in thinking that you're town).

I'm also amazed by the activity level.

after which BBT voted mofo.

I really dislike BBT and plotinus didn't check votecount, there wasn't enough to read mofo yet. I don't think agreeing with a read that was made by (possible) scum is necessarily exclusive to other (possible) scum.

[Wanderer-nl]

That ^ was actually the awkwardness I was referring to when I unvoted saad.

[Wanderer-nl]

PEdit (yes in front) wow this post turned out big. It's my stance right now and would like everybody to respond (agree/disagree+reason)

Hey BBT. Been a very short while

short while is an oxymoron and an oxymoron is a contradiction between two words (the word oxymoron in itself is an oxymoron; with oxy meaning dull in latin and moron meaning sharp). only the scum contradict because THEY are the ones lying.

VOTE: Skold

Other way around, and greek, not latin

reason still stands, blame my source.

This thing is making me think saad and Skold aren't scumbuddies. saad seems very newb to me and I don't think he'd bus as scum.
Maybe saad and plotinus are scumbuddies. saad was overly defensive with my random vote, and also when plotinus was voted.

This sounds coach-y

I'm glad you didn't claim a powerrole. Way too early in the game for that.

And the only interaction they have is first when plotinus corrects saad with the oxymoron stuff, and later when she suggests to saad to replace into games. I think that's odd because saad was at L-1 at some point and to me it feels Plotinus was avoiding that bandwagon, and very happy to join on mofo. Her explanation on finding BBT suspicious to joining the bw to disliking his tactic after BBT flips town seems a little convenient to me.


Defending saad:

Actually, I don't believe him at all. He claimed villager. It clearly states in the setup and the sample role PM's that the role is called Vanilla Townie.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

Not a plays-the-game-on-some-other-site-too slip?

He may well do.

I find it more likely that he would use the terminology given in his role PM though.

fair enough.

re:94 I think it can be a good tactic for scumbuddies to fight each other early on and then make up. that logic would make more sense of saad was also scumreading BBT though, especially since he's doing OMGUS for everyone else.

To me this looks like Plotinus disagrees with BBT but is letting it slide. Plotinus is entertaining the idea of BBT and saad as scumbuddies but seems to come to the conclusion that saad sn't bussing BBT so that theory makes little sense. (That's my interpretation of her words)

Plotinus basically saying she doesn't suspect saad right now but might later:

It will depend on how they behave today. I think it can be hard to distinguish between newbie and scummy -- to use examples from our last game, ducks who seemed (to me) scum but was newbie and mainez who seemed newbie but was scum, but it's worth keeping an eye on them.

people only wanna play as town, if i replace i'd likely get a scum slot from a guy who lurked because he flipped scum.

So what I'm reading from this is that Saad doesn't want to be mafia, he wants to be town, and that if he were mafia he would lurk until he was replaced. I disagree with his premise about what other people want to play, but do think that he believes it. Him not lurking is not evidence either way (because he could have been lying), but if he does start lurking after this I'll be more suspicious of him.

I think if we're dealing with two newbie scum, then it's 2 of [skold, saad, argos] (mostly by process of elimination on "newbie" and "scum"). We've only seen 9 posts from Skold so far, and only a few of substance. We've seen even less of Argos (just 2 posts). It is entirely possible they were sleeping or at work like singer during the entire 7 hour day, so complete null read on them.

House said something last game -- even though he was scum I think he was telling the truth about this part -- about a good way to distinguish IC town from IC scum, so I think we can fairly confidently wait and see what will happen with singer and how she plays this week. If singer is town then I do think we're dealing with 2 newbie scum. If singer is not town it is entirely too early to be guessing who her buddy is but probably one of the candidates for newbie scum.

Anyway, I'd trust your instincts about who to watch.

who even is our remaining SE? *checks* oh, Skold. But he's only been on the site for a couple months so he might still feel like a newer player? I looked over his completed games very briefly and I didn't find a completed scum game, so if he is scum then i'll count him in the newbie category.

[Wanderer-nl]

Trying to prolong RVS ^^.

Scummy.

I have no bloody clue if this is serious. But it shouldn't be. Can't we wait until a couple more people have joined? Jesus I have to have OPINIONS already? Fucking OPINIONS? What is the world coming to?

You have to have them now, Skold. Shoot.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Plotinus: how are you going to decide between saad and Skold?

[Wanderer-nl]

That feels like a rather passive way of scumhunting. What if they don't post?

[Wanderer-nl]

Dammit where is everybody else? How am I going to get reads if nobody is responding to what is being written?

[Wanderer-nl]

*Nobody but Plotinus.

[Wanderer-nl]

Why do you think singer is scum?

[Wanderer-nl]

Spoiler: quoting a big post

@Saad Townlean is weaker than townread. I don't have a list of towntells memorised and most of them can be faked anyway. I just have some early game positive feelings towards Argos for now.

@singer: Thanks for the explanation. I think I will avoid pressure votes until I have some idea of what I'm trying to accomplish with them, then.

About the "best scumhunter" thing: BBT was very enthusiastically scumhunting on Day 1. You weren't because you were at work and the day was cut short. However, as IC, and as a person with a green name, as someone who has been here for 4.5 years, we can guess that you know something about this game, that you have learned something about how to read people, that you know when to trust your feelings and when not to, that you've seen newbie scum in many different games and you have some idea of what to look for. Of course this is all conjecture because we haven't seen it in action, but it's an educated guess. As IC, your advice is more likely to help us pull off a town victory.

I'm not saying we should all sheep you because we do need to learn to think for ourselves (or I need to learn anyway), but I do think that if I were scum and if I didn't have any leads on powerroles, if nobody was mod confirmed town, and there was nobody I wanted to policy lynch for being annoying, then I would go after the best scumhunters, the IC, and leave alive whoever looked the most confused. I've given it some thought (especially the policy lynch part), but I keep drawing town-aligned roles so I can't actually test my thoughts.

So that's why I think both that you are more likely than the rest of us to be night killed and why I think you weren't killed night 1.

Plotinus has several posts like these that are very eager-sounding and transparent. Scum don't like giving away information that could condemn them, so they're not as willing to be as forthcoming with information. I know this isn't always the case, since in one of my more recent Newbie games, I was fooled by someone who posted a lot, but I realized in retrospect he was trying to cover up his potential mistakes by talking in circles. I don't feel this is the case for Plotinus.

PEdit (yes in front) wow this post turned out big. It's my stance right now and would like everybody to respond (agree/disagree+reason)

Spoiler:

Hey BBT. Been a very short while

short while is an oxymoron and an oxymoron is a contradiction between two words (the word oxymoron in itself is an oxymoron; with oxy meaning dull in latin and moron meaning sharp). only the scum contradict because THEY are the ones lying.

VOTE: Skold

Other way around, and greek, not latin

reason still stands, blame my source.

This thing is making me think saad and Skold aren't scumbuddies. saad seems very newb to me and I don't think he'd bus as scum.
Maybe saad and plotinus are scumbuddies. saad was overly defensive with my random vote, and also when plotinus was voted.

I would be inclined to agree if it wasn't an RVS vote or he gave any seriously reasoning for voting for skold. I think it means nothing, and if anything, if either one of them flips scum, I'd be more suspicious of the other

specifically

because of this RVS vote. As newer players, your attention is drawn to familiarity, and scum buddies are familiar.

Saad, I will ask you this; why did you not RVS in your first post?

rvs is shit, my vote was a serious vote.

[Wanderer-nl]

@mod: prod Skold please?

[Wanderer-nl]

Why is nobody talking about saad's vote and unvote on Plotinus earlier today?

[Wanderer-nl]

@mod: please replace Skold asap. I'm with singer on this, we now have a useless slot and I don't like the uncertainty of whether and/or when Skold may come back.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wyvernite: your postlinks link wrong. You can just use [ post ] <postnumber in this thread> [ /post] I think postID's are only necessary when linking to a post in/from another thread.

[Wanderer-nl]

Why is nobody talking about saad's vote and unvote on Plotinus earlier today?

[Wanderer-nl]

[partial quote removed]

Wanderer: I feel like he's had a few useful posts, but also had a lot of posts where its just quotes, with a sentence or two from him, which I don't like. Null read on him for now.

Would you rather I linked to posts instead of quoting them?
I feel like you are reading me over my poststyle and not so much the content in my posts. It's my playstyle to be thorough, so I add quotes to make it easier for all of you to read where I'm coming from. I also tend to not make too long posts (quotes not included) because a big wall of text gets hard to read, and I know I have a hard time reading through posts that have a lot of words but don't really say much at all.
Do you have any questions for me that could get your read off the null-line?

[Wanderer-nl]

Now that Wyvernite has posted I feel comfortable sharing my reads too.

Argos:

townish-null, didn't need to be pressured into posting reads/thoughts so I like that. But not enough content to make a good read on. Would like Argos to comment more on current discussions. Also doesn't seem to suspect saad too much but hasn't given any other strong scumreads.

Plotinus:

scummish-null. No real scumtells yet but again she avoids voting saad by putting her vote on Skold and then leaving it there even though she knows he's V/LA. Voteparking much?

Wyvernite:

townish, mainly because of 121. As scum he could have just let the terminolgy-thing slide. And he was already voting saad so it's also not reluctancy to vote either. I just realized I have a question, will ask at the bottom of this post.

saad:

scummy, he doesn't respond to questions, he leaves statements but doesn't explain anything about it. I think saad is a good vote for today. I'm not voting yet because I don't want the day to end yet.

Skold:

no content yet, lurkynull. Hopefully he gets replaced soon. I won't vote him, except to prevent a no-lynch. I want to hear from this slot first.

singersigner:

null, because there isn't really much content. Right now I think if saad flips scum, I'll have a more towny feeling with singer, but if saad flips town I'd get a more scummy feeling. I'm not sure but singer could be hiding behind IC-status to appear helpful and active.

@Wyvernite: you said you liked singer's post 228 and that it screams town. The first half was questioning my thoughts on Plotinus, the second half singer seems to agree with what I wrote. Then you end up voting Plotinus yourself. I don't really get how you dislike my posts, but like singer's quotepost of my quotepost. I think I was also pretty clear in what/how I was thinking, but I know I tend to sometimes skip points because they look so obvious to me, but then for someone else it looks like a gap of information that is needed to follow my thoughts. So do you have any questions regarding my post 211? Or any of my other posts? And how does singer look town with a post like 228, while you think I don't look as good with my posts?

[Wanderer-nl]

Plotinus:

scummish-null. No real scumtells yet but again she avoids voting saad by putting her vote on Skold and then leaving it there even though she knows he's V/LA. Voteparking much?

Plotinus voted saad while I was writing this so no more avoiding.

@Plotinus: If you can't see why saad is doing what he does, then what makes you think he's scum enough to vote?

[Wanderer-nl]

Yeah okay, I really don't like saad avoiding to explain his scumread on singer either.

[Wanderer-nl]

saad's reason to vote looked a little too fabricated to me. Definitely on the scum-side of null for me. But I am considering the fact that he's new and that the first random vote fell on him, which could have scared him a little, so I'm very curious to read more from him. So my vote stays for now.

BBT wants to get out of RVS, that looks very townie to me.

Skold isn't in a rush to get out of RVS, and at this stage this doesn't really alarm me. Not much more content to work with. Still null.

About plotinus: let me say right now we just finished a game together (I'm not a big believer in meta myself but if anyone is curious, here it is: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=61104)
@lotinus: I don't really understand what you mean with town voting block. Didn't want to ask before you got an answer, but that is still not making it too clear to me. And I also can't find it at the wiki.

Everyone else still reads null to me, so I hope they start posting (more) soon.

not townie at all lol. seems like thats an excuse for an early tr to me.

So I've looked back to this and what I think this meant is that saad was critisizing my 'town'read on BBT.

Spoiler: quote

not townie at all lol. seems like thats an excuse for an early tr to me.

Saad had seemed null up until this post. It could be nerves, as wanderer I believe pointed out, due to him being first vote. This however seems to be scummy. He doesn't really provide an argument/defense of his own, and instead just tries to deflect suspicion onto BBT for pointing a finger, which isn't really anything to get overly wound-up about. I feel like he's subtly trying to start a BW on BBT. All of this is theory ofc, it's a bit too early in the game to be incredibly sure of ones' reads/accusations.

you are misinterpreting what i am saying.

saad wasn't looking to put suspicion on BBT, but on me.

saad, it would be nice if you could explain yourself some more instead of having us figure out by ourselves what you are trying to say.

[Wanderer-nl]

BBT seemed to pick up on that though, don't really understand why he went for mofo instead...

[Wanderer-nl]

Does it make you feel different about saad at all?

[Wanderer-nl]

I mean: how do you feel about 40 now that you see it in a different light, and does that change anything to the big picture of what saad is protraying?

[Wanderer-nl]

I feel like I'm being too cryptic so lets just share my thoughts right now. Then everyone can say whether they agree with me or not.
saad pointing out the 'excuse for an eary tr' looks towny to me, and I felt BBT parked his thoughts about this while figuring saad out some more and then got distracted by mofo. Then the day ended prematurely and BBT died so he never got a chance to follow up on this. And that's too bad because it could have provided more discussion and maybe even stronger reads.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Plotinus: maybe you are the one who's right. I'm going to check saad's iso later since it's dinnertime here as well. I hope in the meantime there are some others that can give some thoughts/opinions.

[Wanderer-nl]

So I read through saad's ISO and I'm just getting so frustrated by his anti-town play. But I don't think of him as scum as strongly as I did before. And that really sucks because that is really not going to pressure him into doing more. So if anyone could change my mind again by actually responding to the stuff Plotinus and I were discussing earlier, that would be superawesome.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wanderer, your last line in 249 reads kinda scummy to me, I don't think you should TRY to be doing anything to get me to read you town, unless you're mafia. This is very scummy to me, but to answer your question about why I like singer's post but not yours, is the content in post 211 that are your own thoughts, I find to be lacking. You have 5, quotes, which all average out to be fairly large, but don't have that much content following up on the quotes. I think using quotes in posts to back up your own reads is good play, but I'd like there to be more of your thoughts than other peoples quotes in your own posts. well..... If i'm really thinking about it, as long as you bold or otherwise narrow the focus of the quotes, so that it's more readable I don't care how much you quote, as long as you have your own content/thoughts to back them up.

Most of your posts are questions, and while questions can be useful, I feel like at this point its a bit much. It can be seen as leading town, and when you aren't confirmed, it's a rather scummy play. I'd like more of your own thoughts, and less questions about everyone else's.

I question people. That's how I scumhunt. If you want to know what I think about something and I haven't said anything yet, just ask me. Don't go waiting around until I (or anyone) posts something for you to analyze.

[Wanderer-nl]

Now that Wyvernite has posted I feel comfortable sharing my reads too.

I meant to address this in my post I made to you, but I skipped over it. Don't ever EVER, feel uncomfortable sharing your reads. Don't wait for someone else to post their thoughts. It could be the key that someone else needs to unlock a scum pattern someone has, or anything else really. I can't find a scenario in my head where posting your reads is a BAD thing.

I wanted your reads for my read on you. If you want me to play in a certain way, send me the manual.

[Wanderer-nl]

By the way, singer I want your reads too.
And saad, an update of your reads please.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'd rather talk about Plotinus suddenly sheeping BBT with mofo but not saad, instead of it actually being a hammer.
I believe it's an accidental hammer, I don't believe Plotinus' explanation of thinking BBT is scum, then sheeping, then back to disliking again. It makes less sense than forgetting 2 RVS-votes on someone. Because mofo even didn't realize he was on L-1, I think it's likely enough BBT probably had no idea, and Plotinus just assumed BBT would count.
Although, I must add, with our previous game where bv310 misscounted and thought he was lynched when it was still L-1, it might be a little harder to believe you wouldn't count yourself.

[Wanderer-nl]

The only player currently pressured is saad and he's not doing anything.
I am willing to lynch him today just for being this anti-town.

VOTE: saad
DO SOMETHING
And this is not for a claim because you already claimed. This is for all the questions you ignored and all the things you didn't say.

This is L-1. State intent to hammer!

[Wanderer-nl]

Usually when everybody agrees on a lynch this fast, it means we're lynching town. However, with how saad is behaving this game I wouldn't see it past scum to be happily lynching the useless partner.

[Wanderer-nl]

@singer: because I think scum would do more to stop the bandwagon on a scumbuddy. But with a scumbuddy that doesn't seem to care about the game? Yeah I'd consider bussing if I were scum.
And with Argos now expressing willingness to lynch saad, either someone is bussing (if saad is scum) or we are lynching town.

BBT on saad: 58

I'm getting the feeling you're not paying very much attention, are you not interested?

[Wanderer-nl]

UNVOTE:

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't really like how Plotinus keeps sheeping votes. Day 1 BBT on mofo, and later said he was about to vote for saad when that bandwagon turned. Makes me wonder, why isn't Plotinus voting for her own scumreads? Today she has already followed singer twice, Skold first and then saad.
Argos and Skold should really post more content, and I'd also still like reads from singer.

Lets not get too relaxed while waiting for a replacement for saad and keep hunting. Nothing we can do about that slot now anyway.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Plotinus: My reads are in 251.
Agreeing isn't a bad thing. Your explanation of wanting to vote for saad eventually at the moment the wagon turned to mofo, so you voted mofo instead just bothers me. How you thought BBT was scum for pursuing an early claim out of saad, but then hopping onto mofo while you were actually about to vote saad, and then disliking BBT's play again bothers me. The fact that you were *sheeping* singer today just supports this.
Oh and you don't have to change your vote, you could also just unvote.

[Wanderer-nl]

You know, I did like 312.

I'm afraid we have come to the point where the saad/Swagrid/lights-slot is so messed up that we are best off lynching it. I don't want this to happen and I hope Lights is able to work with it. Looking at her joindate, this is her first game on the site, I hope it's not too rough.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wyvernite: How am I inconsistent?

[Wanderer-nl]

I've read through saad's iso and I don't really see saad OMGUS'ing much. He throws out suspicions/accusations, but didn't explain them. That made him look scummy, and his over-all play was anti-town.
Then I read through Reubus' iso. Checked why he wanted to vote Argos. He didn't pay enough attention to the post-times and messed up. I have a townlean on Argos so my initial reaction was that Reubus' reason was bogus. But then this happened:
Argos was hesitant towards a saad-replacement 302 because they wouldn't be able to answer the questions that saad left unanswered. Then in 326 Argos is more than willing to hear from the new replacement because they might be able to shed some light on the situation.
What changed?

I don't think singer has contributed a lot so far. Yes, she's seemed helpful, but that was mostly her being IC. She hasn't said anything about Argos and Wyvernite yet, says they haven't done enough yet to give singer a confident read. Everybody else still alive has been able to provide some sort of reads on the 2 of those, so I don't really know how an experienced singer would not have anything at all to say about them.

[Wanderer-nl]

Hey Skold where are your reads?

[Wanderer-nl]

I'll get back to you on that in the morning. DCL is probably scum, I'm thinking SingerSinger is town.
@Wyvernite can you explain the Wanderer scum read for me? I've never personally liked minor inconsistencies as a scumread.

Yeah so you said that a lot so far.
Post your reads.

[Wanderer-nl]

Shit I'm drunk.

[Wanderer-nl]

[quote="In post 347, Skold"]I'll get back to you on that in the morning. DCL is probably scum, I'm thinking SingerSinger is town. You keep saying you will post your reads. I might be drunk but I don't suffer from dementia.

[Wanderer-nl]

EBWOP

I'll get back to you on that in the morning.

DCL is probably scum, I'm thinking SingerSinger is town. You keep saying you will post your reads. I might be drunk but I don't suffer from dementia.

[Wanderer-nl]

I might be temporarily suffering from dementia

[Wanderer-nl]

I'll get back to you on that in the morning.

DCL is probably scum, I'm thinking SingerSinger is town. You keep saying you will post your reads. I might be drunk but I don't suffer from dementia.

[Wanderer-nl]

Yeah I'm drunk...... This is really bad.

What I meant was:

I'll get back to you on that in the morning. DCL is probably scum, I'm thinking SingerSinger is town.
@Wyvernite can you explain the Wanderer scum read for me? I've never personally liked minor inconsistencies as a scumread.

Where are your reads, Skold?!?

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't have dementia!

[Wanderer-nl]

I tried typing some stuff but my coordination is just way off and just being able to type this is amazing me and I'm going to bed now while listening to some early Muse songs and come back later and weigh in and hope deep-city-lights posted more too.

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: deep-city-lights
I'm sorry but if you were town you would have at least posted some content from what you've gotten so far.
You seem to drag this out as long as you can. It stops now.

Yeah I didn't go to bed yet. It's 6.40 am here and am being picked up at noon so considering not sleeping at all..

[Wanderer-nl]

L-1 I think
Will post bigger but will check first

[Wanderer-nl]

L-2.
Just wanted to make sure.

[Wanderer-nl]

dcl: how much experience do you have with mafia-related games?

[Wanderer-nl]

By the way, with all the people townleaning/townreading me, wyvernite can hardly be scum.

[Wanderer-nl]

(Reminder that after this, assuming Jailkeeper doesn't target correctly because that's unlikely, town will die in night too, and then it'll be 3 town and 2 scum. When it gets to that point ,

do not vote right away

. If any member of town votes another town player, both scum can vote that player really quickly to hammer and win.)

So are you the roleblocker or is your buddy?

[Wanderer-nl]

(Reminder that after this, assuming Jailkeeper doesn't target correctly because that's unlikely, town will die in night too, and then it'll be 3 town and 2 scum. When it gets to that point ,

do not vote right away

. If any member of town votes another town player, both scum can vote that player really quickly to hammer and win.)

So are you the roleblocker or is your buddy?

Why would I mention the possibility of tracker on that topic? It can't stop a kill.

That's true. To me it looks like you weren't questioning that there is a JK, so seemed to know the setup.
I don't know if I believe you, but I initially voted to get you talking. And that you are doing, and regardless of your allignment I do really appreciate the effort you are putting in. I'm going to unvote you again for now and hear you out.
UNVOTE:

[Wanderer-nl]

@dcl: no, not really lurking. Your first posts consisted mostly of you telling us you were going to give us reads but not right now. I wanted you to start posting reads. And that you did and are doing.

(I'm about to go out and probably not going to check this thread while I'm gone.)

[Wanderer-nl]

So I just realized that with the rate dcl is reading and posting, she's not going to be done before nightfall.

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't like dcl's scumread on Argos at all.

[Wanderer-nl]

I really dislike dcl basing her reads on RVS-votes. Plotinus is scum for seeming contrived with her RVS but Wyvernite is definitely town the way he posted and saad looks more town than Plotinus?
I find it hard to believe scum would do so much work after replacing in such a slot, but maybe dcl was trying to rattle our heads by adding some elaborate scumread on someone.

singer: what do you think about Plotinus scumreading Wyvernite and dcl (and me as well) townreading Wyvernite? Have you been able to form your own opinion on Wyvernite yet? And maybe Argos too?

[Wanderer-nl]

My top 2 choices for lynch today are Skold or dcl.
Skold because he won't give reads, insinuates he's busy with exams (but doesn't actually say he is, just that it's the exam season 375)
dcl because while I think scum would be unlikely to post so elaborately, I can see a smart scum trying to get town to doubt everything and that's exactly how I feel with/about dcl posts right now.

Writing this I think dcl would be the better choice.

[Wanderer-nl]

Skold because he won't give reads

Screw you. I gave my reads.

I take offense in this.
You're an SE. You know damn well that a list with town or scum and no other explanation whatsoever does not count as giving reads.

[Wanderer-nl]

Are you trying to get an OMGUS-vote out of me?

[Wanderer-nl]

I want to lynch you less and less Skold. It looks like you're out to get a PL. Stop it and PLAY THIS FUCKING GAME ALREADY!

[Wanderer-nl]

If two of dcl, Skold, Plotinus and singer are scum, than there is a hell of a lot of bussing going on!

[Wanderer-nl]

then*

[Wanderer-nl]

Eh, you don't need to apologize to me. I just don't like flirting with the rules.

@Wanderer I thought I was reading your ISO for a second. You know fine well that my reads I posted are mainly gut. [b[I don't, can't, and shouldn't expect you to understand or draw from my gut reads.[/b] DCL is scum, I want her lynched. Those are my opinions. And Jesus Christ I said I'd take a day off. No need to flip out.

It would be very helpful if you could make me (and the rest of us) understand though.
But you know what, I give up on you. If you refuse to explain your reads, if you refuse to even point at the slightest bit of evidence that supports your gut, so be it. I don't know how to activate you. I will just avoid playing with you from now on.

[Wanderer-nl]

Eh, you don't need to apologize to me. I just don't like flirting with the rules.

@Wanderer I thought I was reading your ISO for a second. You know fine well that my reads I posted are mainly gut.

I don't, can't, and shouldn't expect you to understand or draw from my gut reads.

DCL is scum, I want her lynched. Those are my opinions. And Jesus Christ I said I'd take a day off. No need to flip out.

It would be very helpful if you could make me (and the rest of us) understand though.
But you know what, I give up on you. If you refuse to explain your reads, if you refuse to even point at the slightest bit of evidence that supports your gut, so be it. I don't know how to activate you. I will just avoid playing with you from now on.

EBWOP (fixed tags)

[Wanderer-nl]

Skold is town. Regardless of whatever day scum wants to get my mislynch that, do not lynch Skold today or tomorrow. His reads and reasons suck. But he's real town and not faking being town.

The only thing I will say to Wanderer right now is that if the only reason you're lynching me right now is because you think I "could be" scum - honey, you're barely going to win any games that way.

I know I've said I hate a lot of things about mafia, but here's one more: people who lynch people for the mere chance of being scum, even if they're reading their posts as town without that slice of paranoia. That's how you get your most accurate or strong-willed town lynched, and considering how strong my top townreads and scumreads are now compared to how I've felt about my wishy-washy reads in recent games, I do think that I'm very likely accurate right now.

And if this is why I'm being lynched by some of my townreads right now, then of course I'm going to fight against that. I still have strong suspicions that a scum-singer wants to save my lynch for LYLO, but I would not at all be displeased if she or Plotinus had their scum flip today rather than in the endgame win I'm expecting from scum at this rate.

At the very least I want to read more and try to lock Argos into either a good townread or stronger scumread than Singer. Once I have that I should have a much better, less doubtful check at the scumteam.

First of all, I'm not lynching you. But if you want to convince me on Plotinus, you're going to have to do a better job than accusing him of a 'scummy entrance' and posts from 2 pages out of a current 18 pages of game.
I also don't see Plotinus and singer being the scumteam because Plotinus has followed singer's lynches a lot and scum wouldn't want to be linked that way.

@Plotinus: We have 4 days left, which isn't a lot. We should be starting to vote soon anyway. I don't want to waste time reading people's choices on days, I want people to give their say on who to lynch.
Also, Wyvernite has said, and is consistent, that he's not around on weekends. I'm curious what Wyvernite has to say when he gets back.
When I said dcl is likely not going to finish all her reads before nightfall, she agreed and seemed to give up. She said to lynch her if we wanted to now. Now we can't lynch her? And she also stopped making reads, she's just commenting on the lynch on herself, and a little Skold. What bothers me is that saad thought Plotinus was scum, swagrid did not but voted Argos, dcl went back to Plotinus. Can we maybe talk about that?

[Wanderer-nl]

Fine then. Ignore discussion and just pick someone to vote.

[Wanderer-nl]

About Wyvernite: I can't find it either. Now I can't remember who wrote it or where I even read someone write it so in order to not acciendtally talk about ongoing games, I'd like to disregard this. And also think it's time to call Wyvernite out for an opinion.

I agree with a lynch on dcl because this day mostly revolved around that slot and at this point to me it would feel like we wasted this entire day if we didn't see dcl flip.
I am really curious what dcl thinks about Wyvernite voting for me, though.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Argos: who do you want to lynch to get us to day 3? Other than your RVS vote, you haven't voted this game so far. Not saying you should have, but it stands out a little because everybody else did vote.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wyvernite: why do you think I'm scum? If it's based only on that inconsistency you mentioned, could you explain to me what you exactly see as me being inconsistent? I think it's weird that you call the 2 players that actually have a townread/lean on you scum. Do you think you don't look town and should be scumread?

[Wanderer-nl]

Also, Wyvernite, there are 4 days left so we need to get to a lynch so you doing work to post reads is all very nice but tell us why you'd rather have your vote on me while you still suspect dcl too and the majority of players have stated they want to lynch dcl during this day.

[Wanderer-nl]

Again...

Skold is town. Regardless of whatever day scum wants to get my mislynch that, do not lynch Skold today or tomorrow. His reads and reasons suck. But he's real town and not faking being town.

The only thing I will say to Wanderer right now is that if the only reason you're lynching me right now is because you think I "could be" scum - honey, you're barely going to win any games that way.

I know I've said I hate a lot of things about mafia, but here's one more: people who lynch people for the mere chance of being scum, even if they're reading their posts as town without that slice of paranoia. That's how you get your most accurate or strong-willed town lynched, and considering how strong my top townreads and scumreads are now compared to how I've felt about my wishy-washy reads in recent games, I do think that I'm very likely accurate right now.

And if this is why I'm being lynched by some of my townreads right now, then of course I'm going to fight against that. I still have strong suspicions that a scum-singer wants to save my lynch for LYLO, but I would not at all be displeased if she or Plotinus had their scum flip today rather than in the endgame win I'm expecting from scum at this rate.

At the very least I want to read more and try to lock Argos into either a good townread or stronger scumread than Singer. Once I have that I should have a much better, less doubtful check at the scumteam.

First of all, I'm not lynching you. But if you want to convince me on Plotinus, you're going to have to do a better job than accusing him of a 'scummy entrance' and posts from 2 pages out of a current 18 pages of game.
I also don't see Plotinus and singer being the scumteam because Plotinus has followed singer's lynches a lot and scum wouldn't want to be linked that way.

@Plotinus: We have 4 days left, which isn't a lot. We should be starting to vote soon anyway. I don't want to waste time reading people's choices on days, I want people to give their say on who to lynch.
Also, Wyvernite has said, and is consistent, that he's not around on weekends. I'm curious what Wyvernite has to say when he gets back.
When I said dcl is likely not going to finish all her reads before nightfall, she agreed and seemed to give up. She said to lynch her if we wanted to now. Now we can't lynch her? And she also stopped making reads, she's just commenting on the lynch on herself, and a little Skold. What bothers me is that saad thought Plotinus was scum, swagrid did not but voted Argos, dcl went back to Plotinus. Can we maybe talk about that?

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh and ignore the Wyvernite-comment in that^ (442

[Wanderer-nl]

singer: how do you feel about saad voting Plotinus, swagrid just about defending Plotinus, and then dcl voting Plotinus again?

[Wanderer-nl]

I think it's way too late to start talking about another lynchtarget. I still stand by what I said earlier in 442

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm stating intent to hammer.

[Wanderer-nl]

Seriously? 477 is all you gotta say right now?

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: dcl
There. that was the hammer.

[Wanderer-nl]

I highly doubt both scum being on 1 bandwagon.
VOTE: Wyvernite

[Wanderer-nl]

unvote

Lylo

[Wanderer-nl]

Should still get my message accross though.

[Wanderer-nl]

I also think it's maybe a little weird for Wyvernite to not place the hammer while he was scumreading dcl. He was (is?) also scumreading me so why would he trust me to hammer? Maybe he was waiting for singer, maybe he wanted to get his reads in first, but I highly doubt both since it was already pretty clear dcl would be the lynch and while Wyvernite was voting somewhere else, he was never against the bandwagon.

[Wanderer-nl]

I do hope the others get in soon.

[Wanderer-nl]

Skold, since you've got the most experience here, how often do scum teams assign the nightkill to their least suspicious member? As often as they can, right?

This I don't get.

[Wanderer-nl]

Skold, since you've got the most experience here, how often do scum teams assign the nightkill to their least suspicious member? As often as they can, right?

This I don't get.

The least suspicious person on the team is the least likely to be tracked (or jailkept) so they're a better choice for the person to do the night killing. It might be too much to assume this is how they make that choice everytime, but maybe they make that choice most of the time.

If we can determine who the least suspicious person in each of the possible teams is, we can do some process of elimination, not of a person but of a team. I asked skold because he's seen more games than I have, but I could go visit the private threads from completed games and see how often the decision is made that way.

How? I honestly can't follow your thought process here.

[Wanderer-nl]

I also think it's maybe a little weird for Wyvernite to not place the hammer while he was scumreading dcl. He was (is?) also scumreading me so why would he trust me to hammer? Maybe he was waiting for singer, maybe he wanted to get his reads in first, but I highly doubt both since it was already pretty clear dcl would be the lynch and while Wyvernite was voting somewhere else, he was never against the bandwagon.

Skold and Argos, how do you guys feel about this?
456 is where Wyvernite was scumreading me and dcl.
244 is where he posts his reads.
Also, Wyvernite's solo-look might be because he has a rather inactive scumbuddy (one of you 2)

[Wanderer-nl]

@Plotinus, ok I see where you're getting at I think. I'm okay with waiting for Argos and Wyvernite.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Skold, no look who I'm addressing the post to. You and Argos.

[Wanderer-nl]

Looking at Wyvernite's 39, then his posting throughout this game, and then singer's 449, I believe singer was actually on to something..

[Wanderer-nl]

@Skold: I don't really like how you haven't answered my question yet. Can you tell us your thoughts on Wyvernite?

@Argos: Who would be your first choice to vote for right now?And why?

[Wanderer-nl]

This feels like a repeat with dcl guys.
If Wyvernite is scum, then why isn't his buddy making a case on someone else? Or at least be more critical of the things said so far?

[Wanderer-nl]

I want everyone to consider everyone. We can't get it wrong today. Nobody is clear no matter how town they look, goes for me as much as you guys.

@Plotinus: do you have a theory on why singer was the NK?

[Wanderer-nl]

@Plotinus: Gotcha.

Who would be up for an Argos-lynch today?
(Will explain after everyone has answered)

[Wanderer-nl]

Well then,
Skold and Argos are the scumteam.

Nobody vote before Wyvernite gets in!

[Wanderer-nl]

Good to have you back, Cephrir

Wyvernite still hasn't logged in.
Skold has logged in and posted somewhere else.
Argos hasn't been here since a little after 523.

Getting more and more confident it's Skold and Argos.

[Wanderer-nl]

Yup.

[Wanderer-nl]

This is fucking frustrating. One flaked and the other 2 are barely putting in thoughts. How is this playing a game?

[Wanderer-nl]

@mod: Argos hasn't been on site for over 48 hours. Prod please.
I also hope you find replacement for Wyvernite quickly.
If Argos doesn't respond to prod and needs replacement as well, could you give us an extension if we should need one?

[Wanderer-nl]

If it was a Plotinus/Wanderer scumteam, Wyvernite would already have been lynched.

[Wanderer-nl]

Skold, Plotinus, Argos, Wanderer-nl all voted in the last death lynch of a VT.
My thought process would lead me to think two out of the four of them are mafia.

On this basis deep-city-lights and singersigner are town.

That is the most solid read I can take as a replacement player

That puts you down as town too even though you don't say it. And this *read* as you want to call it, you could have gotten from the last 2 updates. Come on, even Skold is doing better.

[Wanderer-nl]

@millar: 1. It does, because your slot was also not on the bw.
2. Which is only 1 update instead of 2.
3. Nevermind. You're doing good, please continue.

@Argos: Yeah I don't think any scum would be that obvious in lylo, but you and Skold were about ready to vote for Wyvernite as well, all it would have taken 1 vote from town.

[Wanderer-nl]

I should rectify, Argos seemed a bit hesitant in voting for Wyvernite. Skold was willing to vote.

[Wanderer-nl]

Skold, Plotinus, Argos, Wanderer-nl all voted in the last death lynch of a VT.
My thought process would lead me to think two out of the four of them are mafia.

On this basis deep-city-lights and singersigner are town.

That is the most solid read I can take as a replacement player

He(?) scum read all other 4 people and town read two town flips. Congratulations, can we start playing now? Do you know who's alive and dead? Perhaps address the points made against Wyvernite in his stead?

Skold, it makes no sense for having millar answer anything asked of Wyvernite. He doesn't know what/how Wyvernite was thinking. Also, I already responded to that post. How do you feel about millar's response to that?
You (Skold) look a little over-defensive right now, that's concerning. I've also looked at completed games and I know you can do better than what you've done this game.

We are not lynching until millar finishes his reads.

[Wanderer-nl]

Millar dude UN-freaking-VOTE
We don't have to unvote read the rules!

[Wanderer-nl]

Plotinus, claim.

[Wanderer-nl]

And I know because you've been crumbing.
This should be visible in our iso's.

Don't give your results.

[Wanderer-nl]

Dammit.

[Wanderer-nl]

I could vote millar, not liking his premature vote because he said no voting when he went to bed.

[Wanderer-nl]

Argos, please comment.

[Wanderer-nl]

I could vote millar, not liking his premature vote because he said no voting when he went to bed.

Based on my read. Read up.

I did:

2am here. will finish my reads tomorrow. implore no hammers, or rather temporary unvotes even before i make my reads

Why can you vote but not us?

[Wanderer-nl]

Then we are in disagreement on Plotinus and Argos. I'd like to wait for Argos before making a final decision.
Millar, how do you feel about the crumbs that Plotinus left?
I don't like you voted before finishing your reads, but you unvoted and fixed tags so that does look good on you.
IF (big fat-ass if) Plotinus is scum, she's been playing me (and the rest of us) since her very first post in the game. I think Plotinus wouldn't dare doing that if she were actual scum though because other players' flips will out her eventually. The first crumb I noticed was when she said she was glad saad didn't claim PR.
Argos has been looking pretty town to me troughout the game, but when I look closer I don't see him scumhunting so much as making town-appearing comments. No real original thoughts, and it took him very long to hop on the saad/reubus/dcl wagon while most of town were thinking the slot was scum. Maybe he knew how the slot would flip and was afraid to vote too soon because that would look bad in hindsight. Arrgos only had his RVS vote day 1 (which doesn't mean much since the day lasted so short) and day 2 he had 1 vote, on dcl, when the day was about to end (I think we had 2 or 3 reallife days left)

[Wanderer-nl]

Skold and Argos should still get a chance to respond to Plotinus' claim before we proceed to voting.

[Wanderer-nl]

Rofl

[Wanderer-nl]

Yeah what you said, Millar, it's quite ironic that's coming from Skold.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Skold:

Eh, you don't need to apologize to me. I just don't like flirting with the rules.

@Wanderer I thought I was reading your ISO for a second. You know fine well that my reads I posted are mainly gut. [b[I don't, can't, and shouldn't expect you to understand or draw from my gut reads.[/b] DCL is scum, I want her lynched. Those are my opinions. And Jesus Christ I said I'd take a day off. No need to flip out.

It would be very helpful if you could make me (and the rest of us) understand though.
But you know what, I give up on you. If you refuse to explain your reads, if you refuse to even point at the slightest bit of evidence that supports your gut, so be it. I don't know how to activate you. I will just avoid playing with you from now on.

[Wanderer-nl]

Argos just posted. Obviously he isn't going to CC or he would have done it already, along with a vote on Plotinus.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'd like to go for Argos first.
What do you guys think?

[Wanderer-nl]

So who would be Skold's scumbuddy then?

[Wanderer-nl]

Then it's millar and Argos.

[Wanderer-nl]

No it's not.
You have a townread on me, Plotinus is now conf-town with lack of counterclaim, so for you the most obvious choice would be a Skold/Argos scumteam. You either changed your opinion of me, or you're scum trying to get town lynched.

[Wanderer-nl]

Nobody vote yet.

Who else agrees on a millar/Argos scumteam?

[Wanderer-nl]

Millar, we're going to solve this today so if you really are town you should make your case now.
Plotinus, what do you think?
Skold, how about you?
Argos?

And it would be really nice if it could be more than 1 sentence.


I really didn't like how Argos didn't respond to Plotinus' claim or millar's posts. All he did was ask if we thought Skold was scummy now. I don't see town acting that way in lylo after a claim was made. Seems like he already gave up.
I don't like how millar won't make a case now but leave it for the next lylo-day, when we're down another townie. I really think we should resolve this today.
Skold was always a scumread to me because of his lack of contribution.

Argos wanted to vote Skold earlier today and looked more hesitant towards Wyvernite(millar), Argos said by PoE it would be Skold and Wyvernite(millar) but doesn't see Skold bussing his buddy so soon.
Skold wanted to join the lynch on Wyvernite(millar) earlier, and he could see Argos as scum by PoE. Somehow I missed his 541. I think Skold is part of town.
Millar wants to vote Skold and wants to hold back naming a scumbuddy.

VOTE: millar[/unvote]

[Wanderer-nl]

Oops

VOTE: millar

[Wanderer-nl]

And Argos tomorrow.

[Wanderer-nl]

Millar, we're going to solve this today so if you really are town you should make your case now.
Plotinus, what do you think?
Skold, how about you?
Argos?

And it would be really nice if it could be more than 1 sentence.

I really didn't like how Argos didn't respond to Plotinus' claim or millar's posts. All he did was ask if we thought Skold was scummy now. I don't see town acting that way in lylo after a claim was made. Seems like he already gave up.

I don't like how millar won't make a case now but leave it for the next lylo-day, when we're down another townie. I really think we should resolve this today.
Skold was always a scumread to me because of his lack of contribution.

Argos wanted to vote Skold earlier today and looked more hesitant towards Wyvernite(millar), Argos said by PoE it would be Skold and Wyvernite(millar) but doesn't see Skold bussing his buddy so soon.
Skold wanted to join the lynch on Wyvernite(millar) earlier, and he could see Argos as scum by PoE. Somehow I missed his 541. I think Skold is part of town.
Millar wants to vote Skold and wants to hold back naming a scumbuddy.

VOTE: millar[/unvote]

[Wanderer-nl]

It still is more likely for scum to flake than for town, we've had this discussion already. The reason scum is not coming with a case themselves only proves the absence of discussion between them during the night, which confirms Wyvernite as scum. Maybe Wyvernite planned it this way so he'd look conf-town.
I still want to lynch millar unless he decides today between Argos and me. He cannot leave that until tomorrow when we're down 1 town and 1 scum and we can't go on association anymore.

[Wanderer-nl]

Also, Wyvern voting me and having suspicion of me but not engaging in questioning, or responding to any of my other posts means he was likely trtying to set me up as mislynch today.
I first thought he was town for thinking outside the bandwagons, but I'm now considering it a null-tell because if he did plan on flaking before nightfall to look town, it doesn't matter what he voted in the end. He was never going to jusftify it. Now this is a lot of speculation, make of it what you will, but I think it's pretty obvious I'm town and it has been for a while.

[Wanderer-nl]

Also, all game I've been wondering if Argos was a PR, until Plotinus confirmed she was crumbing. Argos did look twown just precisely enough to not get lynched and not get NK'ed. Which is what both PR and scum do usually. I don't want to out PR's so I kept quiet, didn't want to force a claim because of speculation.. Maybe I'm just too afraid to lose a PR, because if I had said something earlier then day 2 might have been different. Maybe a more experienced player can comment after the game?

PEdit: Well that^ and for me I wasn't sure of the crumbs until you posted your thoughts in NK's. Scum wouldn't want town to have that much insight imo so that sort of confirmed you for me.

[Wanderer-nl]

I blame Wyv too, totally uncool to leave your team, whether it's town or scum, like that.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh didn't see the new page there.
Yeah that cop-smiley confused me for a while but it didn't take me very long to figure out it was not a softclaim. Wyvernite really pushed on that 'misinterpretation' as if he was trying to figure out if saad was actually softclaiming. I brought this up day 2 but focused on the real misinterpretation. I'm way too hesitant to speculate about PR's..

PEdit: @millar: I was speaking in generalities. I'm still convinced you're scum.

[Wanderer-nl]

I was really sure but ok.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Mod

Thanks for modding!
And thanks all for playing.

[Wanderer-nl]

I would like some feedback to my play please, I've completed enough games to SE in newbies but not sure if I'm ready yet.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Plotinus: yeah I think that will be fun.

[Wanderer-nl]

Thanks for the feedback! (:

[Wanderer-nl]

I actually did see that post by Skold and I was so sure of Plotinus tracker that a CC by Argos would have confirmed a Skold/Argos team actually. Not even caring confirmed Argos for me and millar not willing to dig deeper but move on to voting made me believe he was the other scum. Looking back there are some comments from Argos that look soft-defending on Skold.

[Wanderer-nl]

Argos, you said some pretty towny things and I really didn't suspect you until Plotinus convinced me she was the last PR. Also, no hard feelings. I've played scum before, I secretly enjoy it very much but I know it's tough.

I once played a standard 9-player game (2 werewolves, 1 town doc, one town seer (rolecop) and 5 VT) and my scumpartner gave up pretty early. Which helped me look genuinely annoyed with him actually. I ended up in lylo with 2 townies and in a quotewar I was able to win the game. I was exhausted after that but it felt so damn good.