Newbie 1656 : Game Over

[LoHa]

/c

[LoHa]

VOTE: SilverWolf

No wild beasts allowed in this town.

[LoHa]

LoHa is short for Long Halloween. Pronounce it however you like but GM's approach makes supersense.

Sakura how reliably can you tell GM's alignment with that tell (she called a vote good but voted somewhere else)? Since it's the only serious vote I was inclined to sheep it until she responded to it. Now I'm lost and don't know how to interpret her reaction. Any arguments on that?

[LoHa]

I am a veteran.

[LoHa]

Osu, TL, and Epic

[LoHa]

Enough votes, half(alive playerslist)+1.

@Sakura: I'm Batman (want to distance myself from my meta on other sites; I do know you and a bunch of other people who migrated here, however I won't base my reads on meta, ever.

@GM Do you still want those questions answered? If so: A serious vote means when there's an underlying tell to base it on.

Such a vote is sheepalicious

Where?

[LoHa]

Ether, what made you jump into a game for change?

[LoHa]

Sakura, supplying a comprehensible reason to vote sticks out. As scum you'd be more careful to avoid such contrast, wouldn't you (care to wifom-dance with me)?

[LoHa]

Nah, the hi was for OceanWind.

I just...don't get what LoHa's trying to do. He has experience, apparently--it kind of bothered me that he was so terse about coming out with it, which is Page 2 logic but was still a part of my initial vote. (Also I already knew at that point that it wasn't very likely to be anyone else, for various reasons that mostly don't say anything about how townish they actually are.)

His 27 didn't really strike me either way. (Now that I'm typing this I keep wanting to talk about how weird it is that he was

asking permission

to vote goodmorning, when I don't see how he'd read her jokey reaction as a town tell if he thought she was scummy before then. And maybe that's true and maybe it isn't, but either way I know I'm saying it from a perspective of being sick of us spinning our wheels and really wanting to find somebody scummy already.)

I don't like his showing after I voted, either. People were exchanging reads by then, and he just dropped in and asked me about my return. He doesn't know me and doesn't strike me as someone who asks things just to socialize, and I don't see the point. Continuing to talk about Sakura's Page 1 vote didn't impress me either.

Asking permission, ey? I don't do that simply because I don't have a superior in this world, i.e. I have no individual, or group of individuals to ask permission from. I was curious how the other people interpreted the response. I suggest you take care not to misrepresent, it might paint me scummy and you don't want that if you're town.

I asked you the question because I was curious, and maybe to open you up a bit and see what you're voting me for. You should realize that if it takes you quite a bit to articulate it it can't be that good.

@Sakura I like to wifom exclusively on day1. Reformulating: Would you say that in your scumgames you'd risk sticking out by providing good reasons to vote when nobody else is?

[LoHa]

Nah, the hi was for OceanWind.

I just...don't get what LoHa's trying to do. He has experience, apparently--it kind of bothered me that he was so terse about coming out with it, which is Page 2 logic but was still a part of my initial vote. (Also I already knew at that point that it wasn't very likely to be anyone else, for various reasons that mostly don't say anything about how townish they actually are.)

His 27 didn't really strike me either way. (Now that I'm typing this I keep wanting to talk about how weird it is that he was asking permission to vote goodmorning, when I don't see how he'd read her jokey reaction as a town tell if he thought she was scummy before then. And maybe that's true and maybe it isn't, but either way I know I'm saying it from a perspective of being sick of us spinning our wheels and really wanting to find somebody scummy already.)

I don't like his showing after I voted, either. People were exchanging reads by then, and he just dropped in and asked me about my return. He doesn't know me and doesn't strike me as someone who asks things just to socialize, and I don't see the point. Continuing to talk about Sakura's Page 1 vote didn't impress me either.

1) Eh, even if he's a veteran, i wouldn't be surprised by someone to play like this if they come from osu!, the only good players there either rarely play and are also from here (pie, gif) or dont play at all (Rantai).
2) This however is a good point
3) This is another good point, considering he knows me but doesnt want to use meta why's he interacting with me mostly, if he was trying to use my meta, it makes sense, but this is just weird.

Then again without knowing who he is i can only say that i've never seen many good players there, so i dont know, but this kind of reasoning is enough to drop him back to null or even lean scum as of right now.

So what exactly strikes you as bad/scummy play again?

@BM I answered your 3 questions in the post you quoted. There is no question in 85 and I have nothing to add to my previous statements on this issue. So I'll just repeat what I've said about Sakura's argument being comprehensible, it's a sheepalicious one; your reaction to it, idk, nor does anyone else apparently. Moving on.

[LoHa]

In general I just think he isn't scumhunting at all, doesn't really have the kind of curiosity I'd expect from town and the questions he does ask feel artificial, and he doesn't lordj's/Mightymandarin's style of newbishness to protect him.

This sounds like a standard random reason to back up a shady vote on someone, straight from the scum survival manual. I'm voting SilverWolf, but you don't see me exaggerating or misrepresenting anything about her like you seem to be keen on doing with me.

To all the PR fishers, I said Ether doesn't want to misrepresent me if she's town because I'm town, nothing more nothing less.

[LoHa]

I

[LoHa]

Am

[LoHa]

Curious

[LoHa]

Mhhkey?!

[LoHa]

[LoHa]

I'm voting SilverWolf, but you don't see me exaggerating or misrepresenting anything about her like you seem to be keen on doing with me.

Yeah, neither pushing him or trying to get more votes there.

It's a random vote. I will migrate to a serious one and do all that when I feel like it, thank you very much.

[LoHa]

Lol, that did sound scummy. I mean when someone does something scummy and I register it as such. Saying things that aren't true or painting something scummy that isn't is not scumhunting and it makes it difficult to defend against as town.

[LoHa]

You still haven't explained why you asked a question that had already been answered.

Which one was that, a.k.a. Where?

[LoHa]

Are you still voting me because I'm voting SW? Kind of silly don't you think?

[LoHa]

You still haven't explained why you asked a question that had already been answered.

Which one was that, a.k.a. Where?

Why did you ask Sakura for her opinion after she'd already given it?

I don't recall having done this, I asked for everyone's (including Sakura's) opinion on your response to her vote and argument. Furthermore SilverWolf is seemingly agreeing with you that I lack prowess in answering questions; I say this question has a false premise, and I am left with either answering it in an improvisational manner to uphold the illusion of both of our competence (which I won't do because it would be untruthful), or address the problem for what it is (incompetence to ask a valid question on your part), regardless of how momentum-stalling it might be perceived as.

1. Whichever country Gotham City is in. I will allocate roughly 2 x 30 minutes of reading and 30-50 minutes to compile posts each day.
2. Scum in newbie games, other than that town. Because I like posting a lot in newbie games as it gives me the feeling of helping out newbies by showing them a talkative scum player, who does the whole spectrum of manipulation from subtleties to fakeclaims. Other than that being a townie has a noble feel to it, at least the way I like to play.

VOTE: GM

SW I hope my vote wasn't too overbearing on your psyche, but I mustn't be discouraged to keep it where I think it belongs. I hope I didn't let you influence me.

[LoHa]

GM is scum. This is me trying to get more votes on her.

@Moosy I suppose I could've offered more constructive content than I have been doing, for the sake of being more approachable but that question, wrugh! Find it in your heart to ask me something else please.

[LoHa]

Can we lynch LoHa. The man is bad. He thinks Sakura’s posts on goodmorning were “good” and “sheepalicious” and goes on to start a WIFOM conversation off of them. But Sakura was just misrepresenting what goodmorning had said like the others. What’s even stranger is that Sakura was actually one of the later people to misrepresent goodmorning’s posts so I don’t know why LoHa specifically pointed out Sakura.

The point behind my question was to see whether he really thought that Sakura on goodmorning was “good” as everything he had posted would have been based off of a misrepresentation, making any posts he made filler and BS. To which he just deflected my question.

You said this before you asked the question, if I was scum I would've compromised my play and answered accordingly to appease you, in an attempt to get you off my case. That's the last wifom from me, since it doesn't seem to sit well with anybody.

PS: if you don't know why Sakura stood out just then, you can't be helped. She gave the only sheepable argument att. I'm enjoying all the clumsy attempts to paint me scummy but I'm also sad that it won't stop. I like my day1 casual and respectfully distant.

Ether, are you going to be this neurotic about me being scum all game long? I think it's pretty clear who your nr.1 scumspect is without you reformulating it each and every time. What do you think that does anyway. How do you find scum? Finding someone you do n't seem to resonate with and neurotically, exaggeratingly deathtunnel that person seems suboptimal to me, at least on day1.

[LoHa]

Then in this case, LoHa's RQS was terrible. For some reason he picked out one of the later people to misinterpret goodmorning's posts, said it was somehow good

You don't seem to know that you're talking about Sakura's page 1 posts.

@lordj what about my play seems peculiar to you?

@Ether I'm watching a movie about surfing and skatebowrding. ME! On MY TV via MY flashdrive. I downloaded it, I had to convert the sound from DTS to dolby digital andnthe cut it in two because fat only supports filesizes of 4 gb tops. And now I'm reading about you not wanting to hear more about ME and I'm like.. Pff yeah right. I made that sound with MY mouth. Childish? Not even 10% compared to you.

[LoHa]

If his RQS will lead somewhere then we will know later in the game, I'm mostly thinking is towny of him because he wants information, while it's possible that scum him would ask the same questions, It's whether he does anything with them later on that will tell.

This is a terrible reason for a townread considering this................

Thing is i haven't read Ocean's posts in detail because everytime i start reading his quote wall my eyes start glazing around and my mind starts slipping away, hence my previous post about me wanting him to just make a concise case instead of just quoting things if he has one.

How can you townread someone you've barely read?

Good post, if a bit too debate.org for my taste, still.

[LoHa]

Got to admit, that last post makes me embarrassed not to be voting him.

He's given up, SilverWolf.

Your hysterical and inflated reads and behavior aren't throwing me off my game as much as you'd like to imagine.

[LoHa]

You said this before you asked the question, if I was scum I would've compromised my play and answered accordingly to appease you, in an attempt to get you off my case.

Dat Self-meta

Meta has no business here. Player A wants to get Player X off his back so he answers his redundant question as if it was a good one and gives Player X a good feeling about himself, thus conditioning him to give back good feelings in the form of townreads, i.e. scum, because town doesn't want inflated townreads, town would rather have unadulterated feedback about his and other people's play because town wants to figure out the game and other townies can help him if they stay objective.

Player B wants to get Player X off his back as well, if only because Player X is causing an unnecessary distraction, but B won't sugercoat the awfulness of the question and expects further to be rewarded with the same amount of candidness. In fact he's probing the playerlist to see who is capable of this trait so he can get to work on day2 and find some scum, now with a fairly decent psychological profile on each of the players at his aid. Sacrificing day1 sympathy, the appearance of being oh so interested and invested in the game has to make way for the tactic and discipline to gain instruments of scumdetection for player B, who is town, to assure a win for his team.

Ether, are you going to be this neurotic about me being scum all game long? I think it's pretty clear who your nr.1 scumspect is without you reformulating it each and every time. What do you think that does anyway. How do you find scum? Finding someone you do n't seem to resonate with and neurotically, exaggeratingly deathtunnel that person seems suboptimal to me, at least on day1.

Uhh, i don't think Ether's tunneling. She's giving opinion on other players, not just focusing on you.[/quote]

So if someone is exaggerating reads and being hysterical about their vote, ignoring other players in the process then that's tunneling; but if she does talk about other stuff too that's fine?

[LoHa]

It's also why I said we should be really careful when considering him later on into the game.

You plan to be in this game long enough to be careful later on into the game, that's a scummy perspective.

So far my scumreads are GM, this guy and maybe Sakura.

[LoHa]

Doing an iso of GM to see how I can make it clear to you guys that she's scum. Hang on.

[LoHa]

still mixed feelings about LoHa. Like, 159 is terrible, but 169 is the kind of thing town would say, like "i am so very town everyone should be able to see it and if they can't they're scum!"

This shows that she is able to play the game, but for some reason we're not seeing more of it

[LoHa]

Goodmorning I am totally readable by this point if it helps. Probably. My last scum game was in 2009, so, you know.

I'm going to pretend you didn't say that!

AhA! Why would town have to pretend anything. But seriously, why?

[LoHa]

Hm. Why the associatives before flips?

I would like this if it hadn't been said already. What's the point in repeating what someone else said?

[LoHa]

You may want to back that up with reasons and logic, or else it's no different than those dudes on the History Channel asserting that aliens built all the ancient pyramids and shit - nobody will pay attention.

That's exactly what they want.

[LoHa]

The way she was trying to sort me. It's not something she couldn't do as Scum, but I feel pretty comfortable calling her Town for it atm

Squeezing out a townread from pure wifom. That's borderline artistic.

[LoHa]

Hm. Why the associatives before flips?

I would like this if it hadn't been said already. What's the point in repeating what someone else said?

Apparently she said it so nvm this. Although from my point of view nothing changed, I don't consider the GM from an earlier past the same as the GM from the past that wrote the same thing as earlier-past GM, because of the change in composition of molecules and all that. For me this point still stands although I can understand why others might disagree so nvm.

[LoHa]

But the explanation is right thereeee

Unless you can convince me that your nonchalance regarding argumentation for reads is true my vote stands. I for one don't think it's healthy for town to accept 'gut' and the like as valid reasoning so I don't think you're town atm.

[LoHa]

Some things are easy to change, some things aren't.

Like what?

[LoHa]

Then in this case, LoHa's RQS was terrible. For some reason he picked out one of the later people to misinterpret goodmorning's posts, said it was somehow good, and went on to create a WIFOM based conversation out of it. WIFOM is something that is easily made up so I don't even see why a conversation should revolve around it and his conversation was based off of a misunderstanding in the first place. So no, his RQS should not be interpreted as townie in any way whatsoever. The fact that he tries to continue with it even after learning that the premise of his questioning was false is not something I like either.

You should realize by now that this is a misunderstanding on your part. So, what is your vote on me based on?

[LoHa]

Could you put your reads in list form so they're easier to find?

Not at this point. Many more people look scummy than there are mafia in the game which means I'm definitely reading some townies incorrectly as mafia.

Cheeky thing for mafia to say. If I'd know you personally I could tell your alignment using this exclusively.

[LoHa]

Then if Sakura flipped town, how would Ether talk herself out of that?

Well i already know i'd flip town soooo...

Tell you what, i'll even self vote if you guys unanimously lynch Ether tomorrow ^_^

Looks artificial. Sakura - Mandarin scumteam? Nah, couldn't be. Or could it? Cheeky thing to say if I was scum. If you'd know me personally you could tell... Hmm deja-vu.

[LoHa]

Sakura likes votes on her so why not keep it interesting for her.

VOTE: Sakura

[LoHa]

Sakura likes votes on her so why not keep it interesting for her.

VOTE: Sakura

Look at that opportunism.

You don't think sheeping Ether is a good idea?

[LoHa]

I thought she was

[LoHa]

Nice

[LoHa]

But since she wasn't, what cognitive construct does your opportunism argument stem from?

[LoHa]

But since she wasn't, what cognitive construct does your opportunism argument stem from?

Easy, you voted me because "I like votes on me" while you thought Ether was still voting me (If she was that would've put me at L-1)

As it stands me and lordj are the only ones voting you, and you can't use the sheeping thing because you didn't know about it at that time (att), so all you have to back it up is a hilarious "I like votes on me" - line abuse? Day 1 lynch ahoy!

[LoHa]

I didn't say I was sheeping Ether, btw. I asked you.

[LoHa]

Sakura, why are you voting me?

[LoHa]

Oh?
So now you're using semantics to hide your argument?

What argument?

[LoHa]

And explain like I'm 5, why am I supposedly opportunistic?

[LoHa]

For jumping on a wagon when ppl start to get suspicious of me. (Although technically, the suspicion was leaving, but since apparently you missed Ether's unvote, from your side, it wasn't)

That's true, then again I only saw lordj was voting you upon a closer look after. To fling a word like opportunism into the ring seems kind of reckless to me so I thought you'd have something you cared to share about my play, and the buzzword was only a stage-setter. I guess not. In which case your vote is not only directed at town but you're also incapable of providing a good reason, not to mention that reason seemingly trumps all the other reasons you can come up with for others to be scum. If you are town I am disappointed with your play. So, I not only think you're scum but I hope you're scum too.

[LoHa]

And I didn't say you were scum for enjoying the game more when votes are on you, wtf ether?

[LoHa]

The reasons why I'm scumreading you is because you said I was self-metaing when I was bringing objective arguments for my townieness, and you were taking Ether's side when she was obnoxiously bullying me. Also I didn't like your reaction to me questioning you on your arguments for voting, so there's that and some other stuff like this right here, with the "scum for liking votes on me" shenanigans.

[LoHa]

Sakura likes votes on her so why not keep it interesting for her.

VOTE: Sakura

So you were lying here then?

Paraphrase the lie.

[LoHa]

Also ..

Oh?
So now you're using semantics to hide your argument?

What argument?

[LoHa]

Paraphrase the lie.

You vote me and the reasoning in your post is because I like votes on me.
You said that you never said you voted me for liking votes on me...

So you're either lying on one post or the other, pick one.

How bout I voted you for reasons I didn't care to share just then, and added a remark which I thought was kind of cute and I could use to up my theatrics and the fun I'm having with this game.

[LoHa]

The reasons why I'm scumreading you is because you said I was self-metaing when I was bringing objective arguments for my townieness, and you were taking Ether's side when she was obnoxiously bullying me. Also I didn't like your reaction to me questioning you on your arguments for voting, so there's that and some other stuff like this right here, with the "scum for liking votes on me" shenanigans.

If this was true you'd have voted me like 15 pages ago.

That's not a bad argument, I did have better things to do like investigate GM but not bad, so why can't you find someone better to vote for better reasons. It must be because you don't want to.

[LoHa]

So I take it this:

I say you're voting me for opportunism, this is your reply:

You don't think sheeping Ether is a good idea?

This implies that you're Sheeping Ether, yet you backpedal on your reasoning using semantics here:

I didn't say I was sheeping Ether, btw. I asked you.

is a response to this..

Also ..

Oh?
So now you're using semantics to hide your argument?

What argument?

I still don't see you clarifying a supposed argument I'm hiding so yeah. Also, as you should know by now I wasn't sheeping Ether, I might have insinuated it to further my investigation, I see you're making a big deal of it and I interpret it as scummy.

How bout I voted you for reasons I didn't care to share just then, and added a remark which I thought was kind of cute and I could use to up my theatrics and the fun I'm having with this game.

... What...

So you vote me for "hidden reasons" and then you complain that i see your post as opportunist because you didn't show those "hidden reasons" as i didn't know they existed?

What does this logic even come from omg

Again you are timetraveling. You may not invoke stuff that happened after you called me an opportunist to justify calling me an opportunist. Logic 1 o 1

[LoHa]

VOTE: vote loha the last few posts by her is just off starting to almost contradict everything she says not shure if its from the added pressure or because shes jut putting whatever out there and cant keep everything straight of wht shes saying

Read the thread and don't call me a she.

[LoHa]

Seriously that's like the most scummiest thing you've said ever

"OH I ACTUALLY HAD REASONS I JUST DIDN'T SHARE THEM"

Yeah No, i want to see you deader than dead now.

Myeah, no. I don't see why that's supposedly scummy. Elaborate.

[LoHa]

I still don't see you clarifying a supposed argument I'm hiding so yeah. Also, as you should know by now I wasn't sheeping Ether, I might have insinuated it to further my investigation, I see you're making a big deal of it and I interpret it as scummy.

^
Scum Posting.
You are separating from your own argument by using semantics and now you keep saying that im making shit up, yeah, this isn't town.

What argument? If she can't name the argument, means she's painting and there's nothing for me to defend against even though she makes it look like there is. Why would town make it look like she's on the offensive if not to save her own skin, which is self-preservation and not exactly alignment indicative if it weren't for her own tell, according to which town is more carefree => has no reason to make a paint job look like a real offensive, well she does so.. Scum.

Again you are timetraveling. You may not invoke stuff that happened after you called me an opportunist to justify calling me an opportunist. Logic 1 o 1

What the fricken fuck.
Are you serious with this?
I called you opportunist because you voted me with Zero reasoning other than me liking being voted as soon as pressure was getting onto me, now you're trying to say you weren't despite me bringing up that you missed stuff, so from your PoV i was being suspected and now you're are reasoning that you actually didn't miss it but it was your intention all along.

She called me opportunist for voting her as the second on her wagon after Ether unvoted. I ask her why and that's where the shitstorm begins, because she can't explain why without using stuff that happened after.. if this is not representative of scummy behavior there is no such thing. Town would immediately back down and admit having done this, without necessarily compromising her read, just admitting she was wrong to avoid painting.

yeah, no. I don't see why that's supposedly scummy. Elaborate.

You didnt out reasons and got called out on it, your response after a lot of arguing is "OH I ACTUALLY HAD HIDDEN REASONS" and not correct them, so apparently im supposed to be a mind reader and know you had reasons and so i shouldn't have called you out on opportunism?

She didn't call me out on not having reasons, she called me out on opportunism which I don't buy she didn't know the definition of.

Now she can't answer why keeping reasons hidden is scummy, which was predictable because it's not. Town is responsible only for finding scum and if keeping reasons hidden for the sake of reaction testing is serving that purpose. I now have considerably more info on Sakura than I would've if I would've just thrown it at her at a time were nobody cared what I was saying.

[LoHa]

I am 1-shot Bulletproff, a.k.a. Town Veteran (Standard Liquid Mafia Role on teamliquid.net)

My arguments and behavior have been extremely town and coherent, if you lynch me it's your own inadequacy, not mine. I am available for any and all discussion regarding supposed scumminess of anything I've done this game, and I'm confident I can argue my points objectively and logically. I am not responsible for your emotional or otherwise irrational assessment of the situation, but I can help you see the light if you care to make the first stem to disambiguate and make a case against me or something.

As for reads, it's pretty hard to distinguish alignments in this game, and my playstyle is most efficient if I live through day 1, because I mostly just probe for intelligence and the capability for objectivity and logic .. get to know people so to speak.

[LoHa]

I'm not even sure about Sakura, but objectively no town should act like her or Ether but it might be a noob playstyle, regardless of experience.

[LoHa]

The main obstacle for me living through this day is swarm stupidity. Someone throws in an exaggeration and it gets repeated, without cross-referencing the validity of the claim in the first place, which is understandable because why would you invest so much time in a game of mafia, there's no prize and therefore no penalty for overeagerness; and the victors or the loud people are free to distort merit as they see fit post-game.

@Ether Why would you ever attack someone's posting style? You mentioned 'thesaurus' twice, said it was to act smart. I say I like to feel smart when I articulate what I want to say using the semantic instruments that serve that purpose superlatively. Even if you are scum there are certain ethics involved that shouldn't be crossed but if you're town you're utterly incompetent. Because now the popularity of a supposed 'arguing semantics' got popular and I lack the prowess to even consider to lower myself to that level and entertain its existence but I guess I have to put in extra effort and compensate for swarm stupidity.

[LoHa]

In case you were wonder; Yes, 29 was a crumb.

[LoHa]

...
Crumb your PR, always, in a manner as to be able to explain it persuasively but encoded sufficiently for scum not to make sense of it without the explanation; unless you're a moron and can't pull this off.

I don't, sorry. It was a long time ago, like 2008 or so. The forums there require "archive access," which is an additional paid feature, to look at things that far back.

I call bullshit on this. Url pls.

[LoHa]

LoHa if you really are n00bKing though, you should say so for real. Because then I can give an accurate read on you.

I feel crippled by a lot of stuff that has been said, all irrelevant for this game, including this. Correct me if I'm wrong but am I not conftown in light of the lack of a counter claim? Please direct your efforts towards finding scum if you are on my team.

[LoHa]

I played on Something Awful Forums - in Traditional Games

http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumd ... orumid=234

I don't have links to the threads themselves in which I played, because, like I said, you have to pay for archives access.

10 bucks to register, that's badass. Ok I believe it. Please post more

[LoHa]

Daytalk is a thing yes, but thing is that we have no way of knowing what scum could be doing with it, in-thread associations are better than going "Oh it's not being coached so if he's scum, scum is another newbie" for all we know whoever their partner is would've told them to act dumb to clear connections, for all it's worth, it's a lot of conjecture, and frankly i think trying to scumhunt based on who's being coached is not a good idea.

I like the idea but I don't think Ether is the right person for the job. Maybe GM should try, she has been worse then worthless this game and is an easy vote atm. Predictable scum behavior for you to vote her.

[LoHa]

Is that also part of your experimental scum-emulating playstyle?

[LoHa]

Oh right, you're already voting me, lol.

I know, It's beginning to bore me as well. Any idea why nobody is sheeping me?

[LoHa]

Oh right, you're already voting me, lol.

I know, It's beginning to bore me as well. Any idea why nobody is sheeping me?

Because I'm town.

Is that so?

[LoHa]

@Sakura Well. But I mean.. not even a newb townie or opportunist scum, cmon.

The probtownie, soon to be conftownie pushes a lynch on a townie, supposedly, and nobody cares to jump on it early, to look better once the mislynch, supposedly, concludes? I find that hard to believe.

[LoHa]

To answer the question, my read change on SilverWolf was based around the fact that I read through her ISO and with an associative read with LoHa. While we're discussing LoHa, SW's doing her best to bring the lynch onto others such as lordj210 and goodmorning and diverting from LoHa. I also barely see any interaction between her and LoHa and the only point where she remotely considers him as a lynch is when she asks me for a case on him but then doesn't ask for a follow up which is in and of itself strange since she's pursuing my scum read on her doggedly. It's also strange since LoHa's been a big wagon and discussion point but SW doesn't really talk about him but mostly about others. You would think that she would say something about him at some point but there's really nothing. Her post about LoHa "going to claim" is really weird like she knew he was going to do it beforehand (scum chat) and right now she's still pushing hard off of him while trying to create wagons on other people.

Can you see something scummy in SW aside from associating her with me or assuming I'm town. Because that's the more productive approach, don't mind me telling you.

[LoHa]

I still think LoHa has done absolutely nothing and terrible things

I keep hearing this and yet nobody volunteers to even name those things let alone make a case, hence it must be swarm stupidity creeping again.

[LoHa]

To answer the question, my read change on SilverWolf was based around the fact that I read through her ISO and with an associative read with LoHa. While we're discussing LoHa, SW's doing her best to bring the lynch onto others such as lordj210 and goodmorning and diverting from LoHa. I also barely see any interaction between her and LoHa and the only point where she remotely considers him as a lynch is when she asks me for a case on him but then doesn't ask for a follow up which is in and of itself strange since she's pursuing my scum read on her doggedly. It's also strange since LoHa's been a big wagon and discussion point but SW doesn't really talk about him but mostly about others. You would think that she would say something about him at some point but there's really nothing. Her post about LoHa "going to claim" is really weird like she knew he was going to do it beforehand (scum chat) and right now she's still pushing hard off of him while trying to create wagons on other people.

Can you see something scummy in SW aside from associating her with me or assuming I'm town. Because that's the more productive approach, don't mind me telling you.

unnecessary waffliness and some other things that OceanWind pointed out. mmm...

Myeah, what the other guy said, mhhkeay. If you can't articulate it it means you're painting.

[LoHa]

If you've done nothing then there's nothing to point out.

Dastardly clever of you.

I bet I'm twirling my exaggeratedly long moustache in your imagination right now, but that's just bad. What do you think of my push on Sakura besides the fact that it doesn't exist and are you still rumaging on a meta read on her?

[LoHa]

ruminating

[LoHa]

This game has gone from boring to interesting to flat out frustrating, i guess it's my fault for reverting to my old playstyle, but im kinda tired here of yelling to high heaven that GM is scum while having a pseudoconftown keep yelling that im scum...

[LoHa]

256 (LoHa) - Can you be more specific about who that is suspecting you is town and who is mafia? I don't get much from general statements like you saying that you are enjoying the clumsy attempts to paint you as mafia. Which of them are clumsy town and which of them are mafia?

That doesn't matter at this point. It's important not to forget what and when/where they've done it. For instance Sakura asking me why enjoying votes on oneself is scummy, and Ether bobbing in like 'Yyeeiiah' is downright incompetence if it's coming from town because I've never said that nor did I make it seem like it's the reason for my vote. I will eventually have to do the math and decide if Ether is scummy or incompetent, for now I've decided on Sakura because she demonstrated that she has the capability to play pro town when she called out GM on day1 and ended RVS, so I'm holding her to a higher standard than Ether, which enabled me to decide faster.

[LoHa]

on page 1

[LoHa]

Page 11

319 (LoHa) - What's your read on Ether? One thing that throws me off from your posts is that you look like you are discrediting attacks on you rather than make alignment conclusions. Are "hysterical and inflated reads" more likely town or mafia?

I've seen it both ways and I was sad when it turned out to be town, as it's really dragging the stwndard and worth of a mafia game down when town can't discipline themselves not to mess up the game, let alone find scum and win it.

The answer is: it's inexcusable for town; but the reality is it depends on personality, psyche, values and to be able to make sense of it you need flips or to know that person in RL. Meta is too unstable imo.

[LoHa]

UNVOTE:

I'm ready to compromise. My vote joins whoever argues his case best.

[LoHa]

pedit: Why do we have to do it for you?

I give up on pushing Sakura. I've said everything I find scummy about her, by now someone would've noticed them and joined me if they intended to sheep. If you can't inspire then you are left judging others' prowess at inspiring.

Competition where the best argument wins is healthy at this stage, or at least good for me to assess who is interested in providing good reasons against who, to get a better vantage point for reads later on and form my town block

[LoHa]

So far we've got SW saying GM's townreads lack reasons / her sudden scumread on SW is scummy due to her not frankly saying SW is scum and making no effort to investigate thoroughly.

[LoHa]

A NL on D1 is really bad for town.

So much this.

Indeed. Everyone do hurry and articulate or paraphrase (if already posted) your best argument for your scumread's scumminess so that I may sheep the victor and we may begin the compromize-stage.

[LoHa]

I don't know

what

to do about it. I reached out to goodmorning, she hasn't budged from a lynch she can't get and somehow managed to dig herself deeper in the process, I'd counterwagon if I had a clue what a viable counterwagon would even be, feel like I barely have any common ground with anyone here to work with them let alone four of them, I don't even know.

Like I said, I'm not interested in answering every single wall of text question you come up with. You can repeat what you want if you want it, but waiting over 36 hours between posts after you did your big catchup doesn't really convince me that you care all that much. (Also, I didn't actually read them that thoroughly, not gonna lie. I was kind of expecting you to actually talk to people once you finished, I thought the catchup was more showing your work before you'd get to the fun part.)

Prod MoosyDoosy, please.

I'll take that as he's scummy because he doesn't care about the game, judging by his catchup-posting style which isn't fun for town; meaning scum is likely to postpone or abstain from getting to the fun-for-town part alltogether.

[LoHa]

I mean Sakura flipping out earlier than that. The exchange that got SilverWolf to unvote her (404) also made me realize that it was probably wrong. I think I was figuring out on my own, but that push helped.

Scum don't usually play according to their town meta because it would give away their motive-driven behavior in the form of incoherence or logical fallacy.

The correct procedure once you identified that town meta is to ask yourself if there were sacrifices involved in emulating it like lack of good reasons to vote, contributing in forcing me to claim, misrepresenting me and my motives (among others making strawmen which you, were a fan of) and now going with the easy mislynch on GM even though she might be a day1-lazy town and starts being an asset from day2 onward.

@GM Are you a day-lazy person as town and should Sakura know that?

[LoHa]

VOTE: Goodmorning

I haven't heard any arguments against lordj.

L-1 too.

[LoHa]

@Mod: Hello. Thank you for stepping in.

IF there's a jailkeeper, IMO I think it would be best if they told us who they jailed IF they were jailing someone who they think was scum. We can discuss this but this confirms LoHa as legitimate and means whoever they jailed is most likely scum due to being jailed. If you protected someone I'm less sure.

I agree. We should play to our strengths with two PR innocent children (I'm most likely still bulletproof), and try to perfect win this.

[LoHa]

Meh, whatever.

I'm hard claiming Town Jailkeeper. I completely forgot my role tbh and didn't use it lol. Which makes no sense considering there was no night kill. This either means Mafia gave up and didn't kill or they targeted LoHa.

If that is the case the last mafia is probably lordj or Mandaring. They seem to be the only ones noobish enough to do such a thing.

[LoHa]

There's no point worrying about LoHa. If he's scum, then the setup is gaoler/goon/goon. If the scum do have a roleblocker, then MoosyDoosy's skills are useless, because it can block him anyway. So MoosyDoosy should block LoHa every night from here on out, since there's no point blocking anyone else.

Lol

[LoHa]

LoHa can be shot if he's town. If he's town, then the scum have a roleblocker, so they've got free reign to shoot whoever they want. All this does is clear LoHa, or turn the game nightless if he's scum. Still the best we can do!

I can't imagine that you're serious about regardless of alignment.

We can catch scum with the jk during the night. Why would he jail me?!

[LoHa]

i am curious Loha you are 1 shot bulletproof moosey is JK and did not use his action there was no night kill so did skum use the kill testing out to see if LoHa was telling the truth about being BP or did they somehow after the whole time miss the deadline OR is LoHa smart and pulling a fast one on us and is the 2nd skum??

If I was scum I would've hammered you. I wouldn't have crumbed or would've crumbed all the PR roles in the game so i can fakeclaim later, definitely not before any other claim AND I would've killed someone, preferably a PR who is not bulletproof.

[LoHa]

If I was scum I would've hammered you.

nvm this "scumslip". I'm conftown.

[LoHa]

@Mod: If the jk jails the roleblocker and rb blocks the jk, can the rb still shoot?

I doubt it.

[LoHa]

Lol

Ether, who is scum and why?

[LoHa]

@Ether How did you like the game so far?

[LoHa]

@Ether How did you like the game so far?

Eh, it's filled with annoying jumps between "everyone is terrible especially me" and "well I suck but this still is in the bag!" and "wtf nothing makes sense" and "well, hell, everything else makes less sense, let's do this." Could be worse, though! Not having to care about you or feel guilty that I'm putting off MoosyDoosy anymore is kind of nice, and goodmorning being scum means I don't have to be mad at her.

Also, I think we are going to win? With luck I won't even have to fight for my life first.

Why?

I was just thinking about what I can deduce from the fact that you're talkative. I believe GM can be too. If I were to paint a profile that fits the scenario of you being scum with GM in my head, I'd imagine your PT correspondence with the IC isn't limited to the standard "play as if you were town" advice, no. I see you two concocting even before the beginning.

I used the fact that you said you probably coordinated with GM more than her scumpartner in the PT, to check the scenario for realism. It makes sense for you to say that if you two decided to have a bunch of interaction even before the game started, in order to discourage people from thinking it's likely that you're scum together.

Which makes this:

I think OceanWind's failure to get into quicker more interactive discussions with other players is a bad side-effect of that "make a huge post once a day" approach. That's another reason I wish he'd switch to smaller more frequent posts, yeah.

a proactive attempt to pave the way for holding the frequent-interaction style to a higher regard, thus further fighting suspicion that you could be scum with GM.

FOS

: Ether.

[LoHa]

Then I suggest you bring some quality, alignment-indicative and unexaggerated reads to the table.

It's the best way for town to bounce off the lynch spectrum and scum to fumble.

[LoHa]

Testing something.

Original Roll String: 1d5

1 5-Sided Dice: (4) = 4

[LoHa]

Testing something.

Original Roll String: 1d5

1 5-Sided Dice: (5) = 5

[LoHa]

Nice

[LoHa]

The fact that he hasn't voted throughout the entire game, no scumreads, it's like he's a jester.

I don't know why scum would play like that and I certainly don't understand why town VT would either, past-games tramae notwithstanding.

[LoHa]

Ok you voted mighty and sort of called ether, sakura and SW scummy. Any update on that?

[LoHa]

Prodge.

I'm ok with a mandarin lynch.

[LoHa]

goodmorning

- 2 - Sakura Hana, SilverWolf

LoHa

- 2 - lordj210,

goodmorning

SilverWolf - 1 -

LoHa

stepperman - 1 -

coolkyledude

Not Voting: stepperman,

Mightymandarin

, Ether

goodmorning

- 2 - Sakura Hana, SilverWolf

LoHa

- 2 - lordj210,

goodmorning

SilverWolf - 1 -

LoHa

stepperman - 1 -

coolkyledude

Not Voting: stepperman,

Mightymandarin

, Ether

LoHa

- 3 - lordj210,

goodmorning

, Ether

goodmorning

- 1 - SilverWolf
SilverWolf - 1 -

LoHa

stepperman - 1 -

coolkyledude

Not Voting: stepperman,

Mightymandarin

, Sakura Hana

goodmorning

- 2 - SilverWolf,

coolkyledude

LoHa

- 2 -

goodmorning

, Ether
SilverWolf - 1 -

LoHa

No Lynch - 1 - lordj210

Not Voting: OceanWind,

Mightymandarin

, Sakura Hana



Ether - 2 - OceanWind, lordj210

LoHa

- 2 -

goodmorning

, Sakura Hana

goodmorning

- 1 -

coolkyledude

SilverWolf - 1 -

LoHa

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, SilverWolf, Ether

LoHa

- 3 -

goodmorning

, Sakura Hana,

MoosyDoosy

Ether - 1 - lordj210

goodmorning

- 1 -

LoHa

OceanWind - 1 - SilverWolf
SilverWolf - 1 - OceanWind

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, Ether

LoHa

- 3 -

goodmorning

, Sakura Hana,

MoosyDoosy

Ether - 1 - lordj210

goodmorning

- 1 -

LoHa

OceanWind - 1 - SilverWolf
SilverWolf - 1 - OceanWind

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, Ether

LoHa

- 3 -

goodmorning

, Sakura Hana,

MoosyDoosy

Ether - 1 - lordj210

goodmorning

- 1 -

LoHa

SilverWolf - 1 - OceanWind

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, Ether, SilverWolf

goodmorning

- 2 -

LoHa

, Sakura Hana

LoHa

- 2 -

goodmorning

,

MoosyDoosy

Ether - 1 - lordj210
Sakura Hana - 1 - Ether
SilverWolf - 1 - OceanWind

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, SilverWolf

LoHa

- 3 -

goodmorning

,

MoosyDoosy

, Sakura Hana
Sakura Hana - 2 - lordj210,

LoHa

goodmorning

- 1 - SilverWolf
SilverWolf - 1 - OceanWind

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, Ether


L-1

LoHa

- 4 -

goodmorning

, Sakura Hana, lordj210,

MoosyDoosy

goodmorning

- 1 - SilverWolf
Sakura Hana - 1 -

LoHa

SilverWolf - 1 - OceanWind

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, Ether

LoHa

- 3 -

goodmorning

, lordj210,

MoosyDoosy

lordj210 - 1 - SilverWolf

MoosyDoosy

- 1 - Sakura Hana
Sakura Hana - 1 -

LoHa

SilverWolf - 1 - OceanWind

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, Ether

LoHa

- 2 -

MoosyDoosy

,

goodmorning

goodmorning

- 1 - Sakura Hana

MoosyDoosy

- 1 - SilverWolf
OceanWind - 1 - Ether
Sakura Hana - 1 -

LoHa

SilverWolf - 1 - OceanWind

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, lordj210

goodmorning

- 3 - Sakura Hana, OceanWind, SilverWolf

LoHa

- 2 -

MoosyDoosy

,

goodmorning

OceanWind - 1 - Ether

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, lordj210,

LoHa

L-1

goodmorning

- 4 - Sakura Hana, OceanWind, SilverWolf, lordj210

LoHa

- 2 - MoosyDoosy,

goodmorning

OceanWind - 1 - Ether

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

,

LoHa

L-1

goodmorning

- 4 - Sakura Hana, OceanWind, lordj210,

LoHa

lordj210 - 3 - Ether,

goodmorning

,

MoosyDoosy

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

, SilverWolf



L-1

goodmorning

- 4 - Sakura Hana, OceanWind, lordj210,

LoHa

L-1 lordj210 - 4 - Ether,

goodmorning

,

MoosyDoosy

, SilverWolf

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

goodmorning

- 5 - Sakura Hana, OceanWind, lordj210,

LoHa

, SilverWolf
lordj210 - 3 - Ether,

goodmorning

,

MoosyDoosy

Not Voting:

Mightymandarin

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Mightymandarin

(1):

MoosyDoosy

lordj210 (1): OceanWind

Not Voting (6):

Mightymandarin

, lordj210, Sakura Hana, SilverWolf, Ether,

LoHa

lordj210 (3): OceanWind, Ether, SilverWolf

Mightymandarin

(2):

MoosyDoosy

, lordj210
Ether (1): Sakura Hana

Not Voting (2):

Mightymandarin

,

LoHa

Mightymandarin

(3):

MoosyDoosy

, lordj210, Sakura Hana
lordj210 (3): OceanWind, Ether, SilverWolf

Not Voting (2):

Mightymandarin

,

LoHa

Mightymandarin

(5):

MoosyDoosy

, lordj210, Sakura Hana, SilverWolf, Ether
lordj210 (1): OceanWind
Ether (1):

Mightymandarin

[LoHa]

VOTE: lordj

It tells me let's vote lordj.

Everyone else seems to be trying to he useful in one way or another.

If scum is Sakura we probably lost. If it's Silver or Ocean then it's up to Silver and Ocean to duke it out. If it's Ether we win tomorrow and if it's lordj we win today.

When I said the best argument will win my vote I don't think GM thought I was kidding. I believe she would have been capable and interested to fabricate a sufficiently sound argument on her counterwagon if it wouldn't have been on her pr scumbuddy.

[LoHa]

Regardless, the elegant thing to do would be to go around and recap by putting the spotlight on each potentially scum player and treat them as probscum. I mean spend a day or two, at least 2-3 posts each to tunnel said player, then switch on to the next.

I'll be doing this starting from the top of the playerslist tomorrow. For giggles, I'll fabricate stuff on me today.

HoS: LoHa

Uhmm LoHa ... you. .. ah.

I got nothing

[LoHa]

As your beloved conftown PR mayor, I commence the tunnel-session of

OceanWind

. I invite everyone to play along, especially OW (defend yourself to the best of your abilities, don't say stuff like I already answered this if you haven't in the timeframe starting this moment).

Make-believe rules:

You (every one except OceanWind) are a cheater and have acquired the knowledge of OceanWind's alignment being scum.
Now, you're not in it for the thrill of finding scum anymore, you're in it for the bragging rights of having strongarmed said scum's lynch with supposedly hawk-eye observation, masterful deductive skills and beautifully persuasive arguments, leading to an ace-attorney-like conclusion-climax. Nobody will ever suspect that you were already in hindsight-mode.

HoS: OceanWind

This makes things a bit harder. I thought the game was in the bag but someone's playing well as scum.

Lol

UNVOTE: MoosyDoosy
VOTE: Lordj

My townread here is the weakest. Everyone who were voting Lordj is a townread, claimed JK, or was the counterwagon and there were also a lot of people willing to switch either way (SilverWolf, Sakura). GoodMorning and Lordj crossvoting isn't out of the question and scum-scum wagons are good for scum to get them out of a sticky situation if both are caught.

Everyone's a townread, well isn't that cute. This is scum not wanting to step on any toes.

VOTE: MoosyDossy

Can't see anyone else being scum really for various reasons. LoHa is conftown. SilverWolf's and Sakura Hana's play towards the end would be difficult to fake. I'm townreading MightyMandarin independent of GoodMorning. I can't see Ether as a logical GoodMorning partner. She looks bad and says all the wrong things to the point I almost believe she wouldn't have said them if she was scum. Lordj is one I want to read over before lynching as he's the only person who I'm not townreading for his play but I think two scumwagons are unlikely.

Happens to vote for the PR claiming nothing but PoE, despite proving he is invested in the game with them catch-up posts and whatnot.

Happens to vote for the guy he lined up, claiming he has to read him, after the claim, again with nothing but PoE. Looks like he lied about wanting to read.

He says Mighty Mandarin is a townread, so why did we lynch MM instead of lordj yesterday? If a real townie would've had a townread on him I would've expected a vehement defense. I don't recall that having happened.

The bus

Why did GM unvote and then revote me? Because she decided she wants to be bussed. Coincidentally?? this is when you step out of your cryogenic lurking state. You knew I was town but didn't want to have to defend me nor have to participate in the mislynch and after I claimed you were still probing whether I'll go after GM or just forget about it in my tunnel frenzy.

If you've done nothing then there's nothing to point out.

Dastardly clever of you.

I bet I'm twirling my exaggeratedly long moustache in your imagination right now, but that's just bad. What do you think of my push on Sakura besides the fact that it doesn't exist and are you still rumaging on a meta read on her?

ruminating

Her apoptosis is sealed so you start hacking at her and then aggressively go after her using stuff that has been said either by me or Sakura in 642, 674 and 680

Sweettalking SW because she looks like an endgame candidate:

387 (SilverWolf) - It seemed to me at first that SilverWolf was maneuvering around GoodMorning but by this point, I see it more as GoodMorning maneuvering around SilverWolf with SilverWolf as the aggressor and GoodMorning trying to fend her off.

Not sweettalking Ether because she doesn't.

I'm on to you

[LoHa]

Because we tunnel OC now, and then lordj later. Join.

[LoHa]

Yep.

Haven't you ever dreamed of tunneling OC? Now is your chance to make it a reality.

#tunnelOC

[LoHa]

Fine.

Someone hammer then.

[LoHa]

Or do whatever you want for that matter.

[LoHa]

That's a rather disadvantageous handicap when playing as scum and town imo.

[LoHa]

That attitude I mean. Sometimes the scummyness comes to light when you randomly tunnela someone, one just have to abstain from exaggerating and painting because even pro town can't defend against that.

[LoHa]

That attitude I mean. Sometimes the scummyness comes to light when you randomly tunnela someone, one just have to abstain from exaggerating and painting because even pro town can't defend against that.

I don't tunnel people unless I really believe they are scum. A tunnel doesn't work unless the person being tunneled actually thinks you are for real scumreading them, not playing a game.

Townies play scummier than scum most of the time, it's when you interrogate them you realize they were only compromising, to make their scumhunting more efficient; while scum don't really have an excuse for being scummy or it's a fishy one.

And I doubt you can't fabricate a tunnel on a townie as scum, so although the way how they tunnel might be indicative of alignment it's more about how they defend tunnels that warrants this tactic.

If town agrees to policy tunnel every potentially scummy player in the game, for the sake of amassing every potentially scummy move everyone has ever made for the sake of recap then that's the optimal play if town runs out of ideas and there are 14 day deadlines.

Let's not talk about this any further in this thread. I'd be glad to elaborate on the concept of joint circle policy tunneling in 'Mafia Discussion' once this game is finished.

[LoHa]

As your beloved conftown PR mayor, I commence the tunnel-session of

lordj

. I invite everyone to play along, especially lordj (defend yourself to the best of your abilities, don't say stuff like I already answered this if you haven't in the timeframe starting this moment).

Make-believe rules:

You (every one except lordj) are a cheater and have acquired the knowledge of OceanWind's alignment being scum.
Now, you're not in it for the thrill of finding scum anymore, you're in it for the bragging rights of having strongarmed said scum's lynch with supposedly hawk-eye observation, masterful deductive skills and beautifully persuasive arguments, leading to an ace-attorney-like conclusion-climax. Nobody will ever suspect that you were already in hindsight-mode.

HoS: lordj

Seriously, what is going on with that grammar. skum, canadite?
(to be continued)

[LoHa]

EBWOP:

the knowledge of lordj's alignment being scum.

[LoHa]

@LoHa how many times have i said my spelling sucks this game...

You're trying hard to keep up the level of suck tho. Probably because you crumbed a claim in the post where you go on and on about the 'joke vote stage' and now you feel you have to act impaired so nobody notices: joke -> just kidding -> jk -> jailkeeper.

Gotcha

[LoHa]

Well played, Ocean. Haven't read lylo but that looks like a lot of effort.

gg, thanks to mods, I hope NS is ok.

[LoHa]

oh