Newbie 1656 : Game Over

[SilverWolf]

OceanWind-Can I have the link to your offsite games?

[SilverWolf]

I didn't realize lordj had completed games. May I see?

Disclaimer: I will probably never read them. Fortunately I'm like the third player to bring up meta publicly, so maybe someone else will!

In theory I believe in meta! In practice I don't really have the attention span to sit through games I wasn't in, and even if I did, my scumdar probably still wouldn't pick up on any scum that wasn't a direct and current threat to my own wellbeing. Since I have played exactly one game since anyone else here was even on the site, I'm out of luck.
But

still

.

i played games on another site replaced into one game here but was replaced out when i had to leave for i think 8 days for honeymoon or 4 days for miitary i cant remember off top of my head now

I know about the on-site one! I also know that it's ongoing, and I'm more looking for examples of your town game.

Ether, You spend a lot of time this game asking for and looking for meta. But you also mention in these posts that you don't think you'll take the time to read games and don't feel like you'd be able to scum hunt based on meta like this.

So why is it so important for you to get OceanWind's games?

---------------------------------

To both of you, I promise not to drag this out. I'm just ISOing GM, Ether, OW and if I have any questions, I'll ask.

Also, read through that blitz game-at least the parts that were relevant and OW did vote for one of his buddies twice but both times moved to town wagons which tells me he doesn't really like to buss his buddies to a lynch.

[SilverWolf]

It really sucks that every single person in this game knows the answer right now but me. :/ Like, I'm sure the whole dead thread knows it by now. Whichever one of you is scum has knows all along and whichever one of you is town now knows.

I am going to go through the game and see if ANYTHING at all jumps out to me to push things one way or another and also since I read OW's scumgames (I would LOVE town meta but w/e) I will look more closely at Ether's as well.

Then I'm just going to decide. I see very good reasons for OceanWind to be town here. I mean ALL his posts are town motivated and advancing a town wincon. If he did that as scum and wins because of it, then I guess he deserves it because it's a huge gambit for scum on D1 in newbies and that doesn't make sense.

Big points for Ether are the fact that she is very, very open and transparent in her though processes and if feels genuine. I don't get the feeling she's trying to manipulate me or lie and her style of writing looks town to me. If she wins her and is scum, then I guess her scum game has improved a lot and she deserves it as well.

I'd be bummed if I picked wrong but whoever is scum here is playing really, really well BUT I think after reading some more, I'm leaning toward going for motive. Ether says she's not good at scum. Well, maybe she made a mistake in trying so hard to save her buddy. Or maybe, she truly believed GM was a PR. I'm gonna keep that in mind around the lynch there and see if her actions make sense from that standpoint or not. That might be key here.

Anyhow, I'll try to get through my reading as quickly as I can and like I said, any questions and I'll ask.

[SilverWolf]

I have absolutely no meaningful opinions on goodmorning, which is weird because most of what I do have is from things that revolve around her in some way.

I have no real feelings as yet about Ether and Silver, or the mans.

OK so both of these quotes are GM and Ether not having opinions on each other which is totally fine at this point in the game.

my studious "kick the READ GOODMORNING can down the road you don't have to care about this yet don't worry" campaign is still going strong, sooo.

Let us continue this "I'll do it later" quest as comrades!

OK, So here they pledge not to read each other yet which I actually find kind of strange.

I think I Townish read Ether now.

A townread on Ether here.

I think you (talking to GM) (and lordj) are probably town, by the way.

Now look Ether is townreading GM.

This is scummy. Town would never say things like this, even if thinking them.

Actually, I think every time I've seen that, it was from town. I can give links--I can think of at least four examples just off the top of my head, one of which was me.

My 16 year old self was such a mess.

This quote is town though because a scum motive would of been to let me continue with this but instead she was helping both myself and lordj here so I'm just noting this for now.
-------------------------------------------------

Also, GM's scum meta suggests she doesn't bus, at least in newbie's much as scum. In 1644 she said she didn't understand her partner, briefly suggested he may be scum while hard pushing a townie and saying they were for sure scum, then later saying she wasn't interested in a wagon on her buddy which suggests she has no problem defending and townreading her buddies as scum.

Her behavior toward Ether this game so far at least is to townread her. Her behavior so far regarding OW is to welcome him but not say too much-like her response to his first wall was to say it didn't strike her one way or the other-this is going from memory, I haven't gotten to that part in the game yet, when I do I'll quote it.

OK, I'll get back to this more later. I have to take my daughter to school and do other things for a bit.

[SilverWolf]

Ha, That's what I get for selectively ISOing 3 people. OK, guess I'll stop with that and read the whole thing.

But you are right-You were not talking about GM so that pretty much invalidates that point I was making which is good. I can discard it.

[SilverWolf]

I did look at 771 a bit and I'm torn. Ether certainly is capable of making genuine looking posts like she is in this game as scum. The beginning of that game she was very strong and looked pretty townie. She slacked off quite a bit though mid game and when she came under suspicion, she pretty much disappeared and did one post that looked like AtE and that's it. Here she's a lot more engaged than that game.

[SilverWolf]

OK, looking at a town game of Ether's-the one she linked where she made it to lylo and I'm also torn there as well. She was very active and engaged like she is in this game which makes me lean town on her here. She also asked for meta a lot like she is here that I didn't see her do in her scum game. She was pretty obvtown-actively questioning people, making cases, being aggressive. She isn't quite as aggressive here or asking as many questions of people but her ISO in this game looks a lot more like her town meta than her scum meta.

If I went by meta and posting rates and post content and how genuine someone is-I'd go with Ether is town here and Ocean just decided to bus.

If I went by meta (Ocean not being willing to bus his partners to a lynch like he did here) and MOTIVE (which is huge to me) I'd say Ocean is town here because he clearly went after GM and intended to lynch her and never wavered from that. He unvoted me after re-reading and realizing I was town. He helped direct me back onto GM when I was wavering which he has zero motivation to do as scum and in doing so, helped me look a lot better than I would of in lordj was flipped and then GM was lynched later. Almost all of Ocean's posting in this game is town motivated. This is HUGE with me and makes me want to think he's town out of the two of them. I wish I had town meta but otherwise that's my only reservation.

So, like I said, I'm gonna read through the game one more time and see if ANY little thing sticks out at me that I should be concerned about or makes me lean towards one of you or the other and like I said, if I have a question, I'll ask.

After that, I'm just gonna make a judgement call and hope I'm right.

[SilverWolf]

Ugh............You guys are making this extremely difficult for me. After lynching GM D1, I really don't want to be the one to lose the game if I pick wrong.

The stress.....................it's real!!

I know people say it's just a game but damn it, I'm a super competitive mafia player and I hate losing and I especially hate if I'm the one to make it happen like that one game where I quick voted town in lylo and lost the damn game for town-a game that had been going for months and was soooooo hard fought and I was so upset with myself.

It would be less traumatic here but I don't want to lose this game for town.

Still have to read the game though. I promise not to drag things out.

Ocean-is there a reason you don't want to link your offsite games?

[SilverWolf]

Ugh, Every time I open up this game, I cringe.

[SilverWolf]

In general I just think he isn't scumhunting at all, doesn't really have the kind of curiosity I'd expect from town and the questions he does ask feel artificial, and he doesn't lordj's/Mightymandarin's style of newbishness to protect him.

This sounds like a standard random reason to back up a shady vote on someone, straight from the scum survival manual. I'm voting SilverWolf, but you don't see me exaggerating or misrepresenting anything about her like you seem to be keen on doing with me.

To all the PR fishers, I said Ether doesn't want to misrepresent me if she's town because I'm town, nothing more nothing less.

Taking note of the fact that Ether pushed LoHa here and LoHa called her out for misrepping him which I agree with because I didn't really see anything overly scummy about LoHa yet in the game. Sorry guys, I'm gonna be annoying with this stuff until I get through the game.

Bear with me, this helps me make sure that I've done everything in my power to make the right decision and then I will be satisfied if I'm right (obviously) or even if I'm wrong.

[SilverWolf]

Gross, I hated 181 by Ocean. That was the reason I voted him when I did. 227 by OceanWind is annoying and scummy. None of those points against me have any validity whatsoever.

189 is pretty town from Ether. So is 190. Also, lots of prodding people and wanting people to post. Def townread for me at this point in the game above Ocean.

232 Is actually interesting and worth discussing. First, because GM said she didn't have an opinion on Ocean one way or the other which she should of by then because everyone else did and then GM points out the "townslip" by Ocean of not knowing there was daychat. If these two were scum together both of these things look like GM/Ocean partnership.

pedit: Good post Ether, I'm leaning OceanWind over you now but I still have to get through the game for my own well being.

[SilverWolf]

248 by Ether is pretty town. is too although not as much. She's not taking sides in my argument with Ocean but saying we both are town but still pushing LoHa which is fine because she's developing reads and pushing her scumreads.

I don't agree with [post]292 though. Weird.

326 by OceanWind is meh, don't like. 328 is good though. Sakura would of been an easy target for scum at this point in the game and Ocean townreads her instead. Hence, my unvote on Ocean here.

And here's where I start getting suspicious of GM so let's see how Ether and Ocean respond to that. 346 is interesting if Ether is scum with GM. 352[/post} GM kind of defends Ether just a touch. Both of these things could indicate a GM/Ether partnership. Scumreading your partner with someone else and pushing the townie is a valid strategy and one I've done before as scum in newbies.

Well, well, well. Both myself and Sakura vote for GM and look what happens. Ether expresses suspicion on GM, Sakura tries to get her to vote GM with us and she says she's rather not vote. I'm not going to link the posts at this point, we all know they are there. This is pretty damning for Ether tbh.

[post]383 is spot on correct if Ether is scum with GM and is a really good catch by Sakura. Yeah, Ether's looking worse and worse to me now. 385 and 386 are equally as damning. 390 is super damning. Holy cow, I'm glad I'm re-reading the thread!!

393 from Sakura is dead on also. 395, 396, 397 are also incredibly bad for Ether!!

401 Hell yeah!! *cheering Sakura on here* 419 and 420 also-yeah

[psot]424[/post]-actually not sure a buddy would say that about another buddy

OK, Now we get to the LoHa claim which I'll continue on next post.

[SilverWolf]

Holy shit, I'm gonna fix all those quotes-What a mess, LOL!!

[SilverWolf]

248 by Ether is pretty town. 254 is too although not as much. She's not taking sides in my argument with Ocean but saying we both are town but still pushing LoHa which is fine because she's developing reads and pushing her scumreads.

I don't agree with 292 though. Weird.

326 by OceanWind is meh, don't like. 328 is good though. Sakura would of been an easy target for scum at this point in the game and Ocean townreads her instead. Hence, my unvote on Ocean here.

And here's where I start getting suspicious of GM so let's see how Ether and Ocean respond to that. 346 is interesting if Ether is scum with GM. 352 GM kind of defends Ether just a touch. Both of these things could indicate a GM/Ether partnership. Scumreading your partner with someone else and pushing the townie is a valid strategy and one I've done before as scum in newbies.

Well, well, well. Both myself and Sakura vote for GM and look what happens. Ether expresses suspicion on GM, Sakura tries to get her to vote GM with us and she says she's rather not vote. I'm not going to link the posts at this point, we all know they are there. This is pretty damning for Ether tbh.

383 is spot on correct if Ether is scum with GM and is a really good catch by Sakura. Yeah, Ether's looking worse and worse to me now. 385 and 386 are equally as damning. 390 is super damning. Holy cow, I'm glad I'm re-reading the thread!!

393 from Sakura is dead on also. 395, 396, 397 are also incredibly bad for Ether!!

401 Hell yeah!! *cheering Sakura on here* 419 and 420 also-yeah

424-actually not sure a buddy would say that about another buddy

OK, Now we get to the LoHa claim which I'll continue on next post.

EBWOP

[SilverWolf]

I don't like 525 and the whole keep trying to lynch LoHa despite being a claimed PR that Ether, GM, and Moosy continued on with. This bugs me a lot. Scum would benefit from a LoHa lynch. Town would wait on it and look elsewhere for the time being. I know Moosy flipped town but still..................

It sucks that during this whole time, OceanWind was not around due to computer issues. It makes reading him that much harder.

Finally, getting to Ocean's catch up and I like 636 that looks like he's trying to solve the game honestly, and transparently and look townier than his scum posting in other games.

642 is good too. 644 seems odd for an interaction between two partners. 647 same.

648 is a good post by Ocean again.

657 Here GM interjects to defend OceanWind which is a hint they could be buddies. I think GM would defend her buddy if needed. 658 seems a little testy if they were buddies.

662 is o.k. but later Ocean says he's ok with a MightyMandarin lynch so I'm going to see if I can find a progression on that read that makes sense when I get to it

667 GM defending Ocean again.

Ether's push on Ocean is interesting if Ocean turns out to be scum-she was right here. Sakura expressed dislike of Ocean here as well.

674 I don't know why scum would change their read on me and GM here to make their partner look worse-would not make sense as scum play.

I like 679 and 680 a lot for town because he pushes both GM and Ether here pretty good and if Ether is scum with GM-he is onto them both.

681 I have a hell of a time seeing coming from a GM partner-GM only had Sakura voting her at this time and there was absolutely no reason to bus when there were scummier people under suspicion plus he unvoted me and called me his strongest townread which means he is honestly figuring me out as a townie would

Like really, those last 3 posts make me want to vote for Ether today for sure. But I'll keep reading.

687 is where Ether starts defending GM based on thinking she's a PR. I can sort of see it but not sure.

706 is a great one for OceanWind town and GM/Ether scum.

708 I'm having trouble seeing coming from a partner because she could bug the shit out of GM for this in the mafia PT so idk here.

It's interesting that 724 is Ocean starting to get suspicious of Ether.

730 throws the whole Ether thinking GM is a PR out the window because it is very clear she thinks Moosy is a PR here with her post-so this is significant to me and never would of been caught if I did not read through.

Now we get to everyone's reaction around the GM lynch which needs a new post.

[SilverWolf]

OK, I look like shit throughout this whole thing, good lord I'm surprised you guys didn't mislynch me for this alone, damn.

Sakura and Ocean and myself are voting GM. Ether had already started the lordj cw at this point. GM votes for lordj and Moosy follows and then I follow. LoHa votes GM here.

739 is HUGE for OceanWind being town. Probably the strongest post in the entire game in favor of OceanWind town. However, how easy would it be for him to state intent to hammer on lordj here as scum when he's been pushing GM all along? I think that would be hard to pull off so it's possible he stuck with GM as a bus and because he couldn't move, therefore needs the towncred to stay where he is since there is still a strong likelihood of a GM lynch here.

Ether is interfering here and trying to get me to meta lordj and at this point she no longer has any reason to think GM is a PR because GM would of claimed.

Ether does express a little doubt on GM 780 but it's not strong enough for her to try to lynch GM herself though. That's all on me here for some reason.

793 is a town post from Ocean.

795 could easily be from you think GM was a PR

D1 is done, the rest will be much quicker I think.

[SilverWolf]

Not sure why Ether would make 805 is she earlier thought Moosy was a PR.

820 why would Ether incriminate herself like this? This seems town.

[psot]821[/post] not only brings up that point on Ether also but looks town to me as well.

Can you guys just both stop looking so damn town cuz it's pissing me off. LOL

852 could go either way on being an honest thing or an after the lynch story she came up with

855 doesn't make sense, if you thought she was a PR or scum then you would of voted her when it became obvious she wasn't a PR-I don't believe this post at all

OK, I'm at the point where Sakura votes Ether and LoHa FoS's Ether.

909-good point

910 and 911 912 are very noteworthy for Sakura suspecting Ether. Honestly, I wish Sakura was here instead of me. I think she'd figure this out before I would. I'm sure that's why she's dead.

916 and 918 good points by Sakura.

919 and 920-very interesting indeed.

921 and 922 also interesting

925 good point as well 926 and 927 not sure if I believe or not, maybe?

[psot]933[/post] maybe ok? but Mighty just incriminated himself to change the course of the game so meh................

937 from Ocean is something I have a hard time seeing scum do, he would of jumped on Ether most likely as an easy target right here

944 I don't really get by Sakura? I'll have to re-read it when my brain is working better

946 is good 947-not understanding why she unvoted Ether here but she's town anyway so.................

969 is some pretty good points by a flipped townie against Ether. Noteable

Mightly Mandarin is lynched and 1007 is something I need to look at later when I have more time

Oh wait, I don't have to. OceanWind makes a series of excellent posts here expressing genuine looking doubt on the MightMandarin lynch and good reasoning for it too 1013 is significant because Ocean's reasons for changing his mind are very townie where Ether wanting to hammer anyway is scummy af.

1014-Noteable!!

[psot]1027[/post] probably means something too in regards to Ocean

OK, There ends D2.

[SilverWolf]

OK, I screwed up a couple post links above but I don't want to fix them and you can easily see what posts I mean.

[SilverWolf]

1047 I like.

1072 is interesting

Don't really have much else to say on D3. Looks like Ocean was right that he just forgot he didn't vote lordj, then all that stuff with me hammering lordj, then we NL'd and got into today.

[SilverWolf]

1127 sounds reasonable and fair

1128 also is reasonable and fair

Damn you two-stop both looking so damn town, I mean really!!

I understand Ether's concern over my hammer and I understand Ocean's L-1 vote on lordj and both make sense, ugh.................

1139 why would you be doing your damnest to try to find any way you can to find me town if you are scum? I don't think you would

1148 is pretty good

1150 also

1151 is super town IMO

The back and forth over the scum PT postings I can kind of see Ocean being genuinely frustrated/angry. Ether also selectively quoted out of one of my scum PT's as well so I get that.

Also, offsite game stuff, I'm torn. I think it would help a lot with my read on Ocean but I can also understand the privacy angle and I get that because I got mad the first time someone from my homesite posted a link to a game from me and my username here from that site. I came here with a different user ID to start over in a way but it doesn't matter now because so many are here from that site and that link has been shown so many times and so many know the history including the fact it's in my GTKAS as well. But I GET the privacy angle. Still would love the links but it is what it is.

1167 I have a hard time seeing coming from scum tbh, why would scum challenge someone to vote them in lylo? If two people crossvote in lylo, it confirms one of them as scum if no one hammers and it confirms the other as town if they don't hammer-not the best move for scum as they'd want to hold the hammer in lylo

1177 is a really good case for Ocean town.

1202 is very genuine and looks townish to me

1208 is fairly convincing as well

1217 seems genuine

OK, done going through up to recent comments.

[SilverWolf]

I'm leaning toward voting Ether I think. A lot of her posts look very genuine and town and emotional which looks town but I have to go with motive. I see very little, if any, scum motivation in anything Ocean has done this game where there is quite a bit in Ether's behavior.

Mala isn't on until the evening so I'm going to take some time to clear my head and re-read what I wrote today just to make sure.

But that's what I'm leaning towards right now. I can decide for sure later.

[SilverWolf]

Although all of Ether's defenses today make sense....................................

Ugh, I hate this game.

[SilverWolf]

If I look at activity, effort, and overall play, Ether looks pretty town here. She looks a lot better than her scum game although she wasn't as bad there as she makes it out to be.

OceanWind just didn't do anything scum motivated like at all in this game. He looks different than his scum games. Although this is his first newbie game and IMO, it's easier to play scum in a newbie game than other games and easier to win.

I would trade places with Sakura in a heartbeat. This is the hardest lylo decision I've ever had. Whichever one of you is scum, is really, really playing well. Whichever one of you is town is as well because you both look town.

Sakura kill would benefit Ether more because she suspected Ether. When we were talking about if LoHa was shot, OW didn't say much where Ether did. I read that the wiki has an old tell that scum are more likely to discuss the nightkill but I don't believe that as I always discuss it as town and rarely, if ever, as scum unless I'm asked. OW said nothing.

I don't know, just let me think about this and come back to it after I clear my head.

[SilverWolf]

I believe you checked me out because you made some comments about my scumgames that led me to believe that. I'd rather get it via PM than here though and I realize it has to be post game.

I am the most indecisive townie ever, sorry guys, I don't want to draw it out for anyone but still..........................................leaning towards voting Ether, I think, but not sure because bussing does happen. It happened in 1619. I was clearing someone as town for bussing the RBr D1 and I just couldn't believe he did that but he did and he was scum and got all the way to lylo and almost won on that alone plus he was a scum cw to his scum buddy and I thought it was a town cw to scum which is one reason I voted lordj because I knew that could happen-both scum get a wagon on D1.

[SilverWolf]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=11050

Yep, I'm just putting the link here for reference.

[SilverWolf]

Well, Here's one that looks like your town posts here. I do admit with only 28 posts there isn't much to go by.

Sometimes, I don't like myself very much. I woke up much less enthusiastic about my Yosvote than I was when I placed it, finding myself under suspicion that I...didn't really disagree with, and put off addressing it. (On Thursday, I

was

doing a programming cram, but that's Thursday.) This is a recovery mode post; I won't really feel comfortable until I'm interacting again.

Izzy's 250 bugs me, putting both me and Yosarian in her top three. The second part of her case on me is bullshit--I do not need her opinion to bandwagon people, thank you very much. I didn't get what Patrick saw in it at the time, either. (Epilogue: Incognito is stealing my lines.)

The "look at Xdaamno's posts [up to 253]" method: Canary town. That's it. There's a reason I asked Xdaamno and Izzy. I'm assuming from the fact that Xdaamno's keeping his Patvote here without any update on his view of him that he is not in fact particularly suspicious of anyone else at this point. (Xdaamno has this pattern of getting into theory arguments without commenting on his reads of players. Urgh.)

I don't get Camn's 261 case on me at all. I pushed Incognito on a point you agreed with. It was proven incorrect. I got off. I started interrogating/voting other people. What exactly is the issue here?

Kort's 265 is also beyond my comprehension wheeeeeee belated easy self-defense I could have done last week. I am all for directing suspicions.

For all I say about Izzy, Charter's 305 push on her feels

weird.

Ether's inactivity is less supicious. I haven;t seen her in scumchat for a few days, and she hasn't been posting. I'm willing to let that slide.

To be fair, I'm rarely in ScumChat anyway anymore, and this is my only game. I'm around. I'm almost certainly more likely to lurk as scum. I should totally be posting here more.

OGML, that is too many quotes don't do that again.

There.

Yosarian's claim still bugs me. I don't think OGML's insinuations are necessarily valid, but I won't get into that. What I

like

about his play is self-defense and Caffhate, and I do not have the confident meta on him he attributed to me. (Recently, I said I did, but I had a good taste in my mouth from catching a specific townish slip in 728. See 720 for details.) I'll

unvote

, which is shorthand for meh I'll put this off.

I'm WIFOMing myself over the Charter/Izzy interactions, and I want someone to explain Xdaamno's meta to me. (I'm not going to skim his other games myself right now. It's a schoolnight.

Was

a schoolnight.)

So hey, Korts. I just toiled through seven pages. What's up?

[SilverWolf]

It was mostly the way you came out of the gate that game going after someone right away and pushing scumhunting that made you look town. You asked good questions and made good observations. It was only middle/late game that you kind of disappeared and then freaked out under pressure.

You were never in any real lynch threat here but you most definitely have handled this game much differently. Hard to say what to make of that though.

[SilverWolf]

So do you think I made up all the things I went through on the goodmorning wagon? Do you think I tried to get him to post those links out of pure spite? Do you think I can play one crappy scumgame in 2009 and then blossom into a mature adult or whatever the fuck OceanWind is on, and suddenly transform into a terrifyingly genuine-sounding monster with no scum experience in between?

Probably not but I can't find anything incriminating in OceanWind's ISO. Everything he did is town motivated.

[SilverWolf]

Oh I look like shit this game. I actually did a fair number of scummy things. I usually do as town. I was fully expecting to have to fight with one of you and have the other be the deciding vote. I was quite surprised when you both went for each other instead of me.

As scum, like in 1642, I can get myself townread without too much trouble. In that game, no one could find anything incriminating on me at all. Not even my partner who wanted to vote me. It's actually a scumtell of mine to be super townie in the beginning of a game. Later in the game I do better as town.

So I'm thinking of that, and I'm thinking that OceanWind is townie in this game and thinking he's capable of looking town as scum.

And yeah, you are putting up a much, much stronger fight than I expected anyone too and the reason I haven't voted for you is because of your play here at the end because you are very, very convincing.

[SilverWolf]

Alright, I think I'm gonna vote for Ether.

Does anyone have anything else to add before I do this?

I can wait until tomorrow. I'm gonna maybe look at everything I dug up today after getting a good night's sleep and if I still feel this way tomorrow then that's what I'll do.

Sorry for being so indecisive but this game is more important than some because we got scum on D1 and I really don't want to lose if for town in lylo after that.

[SilverWolf]

If this were fake, if I've been lying all along and still showing you a better Day 5 than he is,

I could have saved her

. If I were scum, I had a line to her in the PT, we could have made something work.

Or at least managed not to make me look like a goddamn idiot.

This is a very good point.

[SilverWolf]

I've been bussed as scum and I've bussed a buddy as scum. Being on the receiving end of it and the one doing it I can say, without a doubt that it almost always happens when the person is going down anyway and looking bad and the partner needs the towncred. Bussing under that scenario has become so common that now experienced town players will look at the end of wagons on scum lynches of doomed scum players and look for their partner there.

So I guess I need to look at the GM lynch and decide if GM was going down anyway. There's no way they would sweep with me in the game or with Sakura in the game because we both have experience with GM. For some reason that I do not understand, GM gave up and decided to die quietly. She didn't fight it. She didn't fakeclaim. The only time I have laid down and not fought as scum was when I knew I was gonna die anyway and I didn't want to incriminate my partner with associative tells or give reads that would incriminate my partner or make others look better so I'd just shut down and basically give up. So why did GM give up? Did she feel she was doomed and didn't want to say anything to hurt her partner or did she decide that she was being bussed and decided to let it happen to help her partner win?

Also, regarding your questions Ether, I think your reasons for asking for the links were fine and I think Ocean's reasons for not providing them are fine. I simply do not know if you are capable of this type of game as scum for sure based on one game from your past and no experience with you personally as town or scum. I just don't have an answer to that because I just do not know what you are capable of. You are very, very genuine and persuasive and convincing. I mean, there is a reason I'm having such a hard time here.

The decision should be easier for me and it's simply not and that's because of you more than it's because of Ocean. Ocean's case is pretty clear cut. Ether's is more complex. She is very real to me and that's not easy to fake as scum. I've only managed to do what she's doing here as scum one time in 180 because I had all these long, stream of consciousness type posts that people were townreading me for. Who knows why I could do that there when I usually can't as scum very easily. But it was possible and it certainly is possible for Ether as well. It's not like she's some newb who doesn't know how to play. But regarding emotions and being genuine Ether beats Ocean in that department by a mile and then some.

[SilverWolf]

goodmorning - 5 - Sakura Hana, OceanWind, lordj210, LoHa, SilverWolf
lordj210 - 3 - Ether, goodmorning, MoosyDoosy

Not Voting: Mightymandarin

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

I'm analyzing this wagon tomorrow. I'm going to do my damnest to figure out what in the world was going on with GM.

Right now, I need sleep though.

[SilverWolf]

Elaborate on "fine." If I were scum, I've been pressuring him to give up links that would crush my argument that he bussed. If I were scum, I've been hurting my ability to win out of sheer spite.

Do you think I'm lying about my belief I'm this bad as scum, or that this came as a surprise? I can link to probably dozens of times I've called my scumplay terrible. In a huge way, knowing that I couldn't be mislynched shaped my playstyle.

I think your reasons for asking for the links were fine/valid. I think his reasons for wanting his privacy are fine/valid. It's not helpful for me to try to find his town meta but I am o.k. with wanting privacy.

I don't think you are lying about your belief in your ability to play scum prior to this game. I think you were able to do it in this game and I can only speculate as to why.

[SilverWolf]

OK-I think your reasons for wanting those links are to look for his meta so you can prove whether or not he likes to bus as scum which is valid.

I don't think you are doing it out of spite.

I don't think his reasons for wanting privacy are bad. I wanted that when I first came here until that was blown out of the water by a couple people from my old site and now it is all out in the open.

But I totally get that need for privacy. I have no alts but I'm considering it because it would be nice to play without everyone already knowing so much about me and my playstyle-just to see what I can do.

[SilverWolf]

Yes. I'm letting it go. I'm letting him keep his damn games private, because it's not his fault he drew a scum PM here, and because I can't convince you to threaten him into it even if it means winning. I get it. But that doesn't change the fact that he's lying about what's in them.

So why the fuck would I have kept going on about it as scum, if you don't think it was spite? Because if the content of those games contradicts what I've been saying, then he could flatten my case at any time if he had to, and

I'd know that

.

Because if it can be shown he likes to bus as scum, then I vote him and you win.

I've made 230 posts in this game so far. The first 200 posts contain one derivative of the word "fuck." The last 30 contain 6.

This is the problem with being an amateur statistician. You start noticing. You start counting.

I'm just...watching myself break down here, punching myself in the face repeatedly for towncred. If I can't convince you here, then I don't think I ever could have stopped him, not after that Day 1. Even if I'd figured it out, I can't see a world where attacking him wouldn't have just destroyed what little credibility I had left.

This isn't a giving up post. I'm not sure what the point of it was, really.

I feel terrible. It sucks so bad to be the deciding vote in lylo. Because both of you could very easily be town here but I don't see much of a world where Ocean can be scum and I can see a world where you can be.

I'm still having a hell of a time hitting that vote button though. I will. I know I will. I just don't know how to do it yet.

[SilverWolf]

If it can be shown he likes to bus as scum, then you vote him and

you

win. If I were scum, I wouldn't have any reason to think he was lying. I pressured him for those links before I ever voted him, because I was trying to figure out his alignment too.

This is a really good point.

I hate this game.

[SilverWolf]

I re-looked over the GM lynch and I really want to know what she was thinking. I think with any of us as a partner, we would of told her to fakeclaim a PR. With the BP out, I would of suggested jailkeeper most likely. It would of looked bad that she was so sure the BP wasn't possible as JK which is one reason that might have been discarded. Why did she give up? If I thought it was some gambit to be bused, I'd say OceanWind in her partner but OceanWind started voting for her when only Sakura was at the time and GM was not in much danger then. If Ether was her partner and the plan was to pretend she thought GM was a PR, then GM should of claimed a PR.

Sakura's words about the only time she's seen someone not believe an uncc'd PR claim was from scum, rings true from what I recall as well. But Moosy didn't believe it either which I still don't get since she was the JK but w/e. I do know a town mindset would of been like I thought of it and Sakura thought of it. Wait to see if there's a cc and if he's scum, it would become apparent later most likely. To try to kill him immediately after his claim, when it would hurt town a lot if he was telling the truth, is more likely to come from scum or possibly a newbie like Moosy I guess.

[SilverWolf]

SilverWolf, I'll say this about my playstyle though - I'm not a very emotional player regardless of my alignment and tend to be fairly stoic in general. While playing mafia, I prefer a logic-based game as either alignment. I've seen players have genuine emotions as both alignments and with scum, it's most often not things that they are faking but things that they genuinely feel. Have you never been annoyed at a push on you as scum and been driven to attack and fight it off?

Yes, You are talking to a person who can be emotional as both alignments and I have gotten frustrated/upset/angry as both town and scum usually when wagoned. And yeah, it's always genuine from me. I have a friend that always says, wagon SW to see if she's town. Well, wagon me when I'm scum and I'll still get pissed and fight back. I AtE as both alignments. Emotions are the worst way to try to read me. It's not alignment indicative at all for me.

I believe both town and scum can AtE and I don't consider that as much of a scumtell as others do. Determining the difference between scum AtE and town AtE is the key and I'm having a hard time telling the difference with Ether here.

[SilverWolf]

OK, I think we've said all we have to say and it just comes down to me casting a vote. This isn't easy. I had my vote all set and wasn't able to post it over and over again. I think it's just my indecisive and second guessing myself nature and the fact that it would suck to lose after lynching scum D1. But the fact of the matter is, I can't see much of any reason to vote for OceanWind. Yes, I guess he could of bussed but the way he went after goodmoring so early before she was under any danger undercuts all that. Plus a lot of his play is protown in regards to pushing the GM lynch through when it could of easily gone to lordj, plus the way he unvoted me and called me his strongest townread, he didn't go after me in lylo for the hammer, he helped me look more town with the GM lynch, he called myself and Sakura obvtown for our behavior around the GM lynch and correctly said that my behavior around GM D1 is not scum-scum. So this offsets the only thing I can fault him for which is possible bussing but again, I didn't see that in his scum games. Not like this. He's not matching his scum meta in that regard.

Ether has been very genuine and shown emotion that looks very real plus I do believe she took the time to go through my meta. She's active and engaged in the game far more than her scum meta shows. Her lylo play has shown a lot of passion as well and I have no doubt she's trying her damnet to win and is getting frustrated. Where I falter with her is the fact that she pushed an uncc'd PR as scum which doesn't make sense coming from town along with the other scum in the game, she started a lordj cw, and tried to divert the lynch off GM, she also started going after Sakura right around the time GM was under fire by Sakura and myself. And Sakura made several great points against Ether earlier in the game as well that I highlighted in my catch up.

So for this reason my intent now is to vote for Ether. I have thought about it, re-read the game, given it some time, let both Ether and OW speak, said all I need to say, and I don't see the point of drawing this out any further. It's stressful for me and most likely for Ether and OW as well.

If I'm right, then Ether played one hell of a scumgame regardless. She broke her old scum meta, looked really town, and came super close to winning with her partner dead D1. If I'm wrong, then I'm sorry to Ether especially but also the rest of town and OceanWind played an unbelievable scumgame then and deserves the win.

But this is the best I can do with what I have and the decision I have to go with. It would stink to lose but whoever is scum here played a hell of a game. It would be wonderful to win but even then, whoever is scum played one hell of a game.

Anyway, I'm rambling because I don't want to vote. Someone has to help me press that vote button.

[SilverWolf]

Thanks LOL.

OK, OK, enough putting this off. It's really time.

VOTE: Ether

[SilverWolf]

ima be pissed if SW aint the last skum

......................................annoying as hell to read after all this, thanks a lot lordj.

[SilverWolf]

Three days and SilverWolf is making LYLO hard. If I had taken Sakura Hana along, I'd have won by now I think.

: (

[SilverWolf]

I think I would of lynched MightyMandarin and lordj no matter what because the last scum was playing well and I didn't know who it was and I didn't want them around at lylo if they were town. I'm finally over the lylo loss-I hate being the deciding vote at lylo and losing after all that work and lynching scum D1. But it happened and it happened not because Ether played bad-Ether was the reason lylo was so tough for me because she was so damn townie it made things hard. It happened because Ocean played so well.

The other time I lost it for town at lylo was a similar situation. It was nightless and the scum all bussed and lynched each other. Especially the last one. So I just assumed he was town and I was wrong about the other player I was calling town all game.

I am just really glad I rarely ever make it to lylo as town and that I made this lylo a challenge for Ocean at least. But quite honestly I'm o.k. losing this game to Ocean because he played incredibly well and really deserves it.

It just took a couple days for me to be able to post this so I could pout a bit.

[SilverWolf]

Also, I haven't said this yet but thanks mala for modding!!

[SilverWolf]

If I had a cc, I'd be all over it but I don't. I wish I did as that would be exciting and fun!! Almost as fun as the last time I was cop in a game and came out with a guilty on someone everyone was townreading. That was a blast

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<3