Newbie 1728: Training Your Dragon Mafia [Game Over]

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Post Post #6 (isolation #0) » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:09 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Hi gais, I'm one of the SE's for this game. hiplop is the IC (Inexperience Challenged) which means he can't lie about game theory/mechanics and stuff, but feel free to ask any of us SE's about such issues if you want too (be careful, we CAN lie though).

In the spirit of old school mafia, I'd love to do some... wait for it.... wait for it....

RQS! (Random Questioning Stage)

I know, SE's you probably hate me and are probably going to call me out on doing useless bullshit, but I think it's a good way to start the game and to get a baseline for how we expect to play this game.

Questions:
1) When/how often do you expect to post?
2) Is low activity a scumtell? Is high activity a towntell?
3) Lynch "all" liars or no?
4) Is too scummy to be scum a fallacy, or not?
5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?

-----

1) I'll likely be posting relatively actively (maybe 1-3 times a day on average), but as for walls, I don't think I'll post a lot of those on here especially since I am in quite a few other games and modding some.

2) To some degree, I think that scum has an intrinsic motivation to not post/create apathy and deny the town information. The more you post, the more you might expose yourself. That said, scum also might have an intrinsic motivation to assert themselves and drive town towards mislynching another townie. So I think activity can be AI (alignment indicative), depending on the intent of the posts, but this is a tricky and often controversial question. I think activity is more AI when it comes to newbies, but the more experience one gets, the less AI activity is imo.

3) This was a common question often posed on MS, at least in the older days. I think town should do everything in their power to not lie, since a townie can play this game without lying, while scum can't. It's the one leverage town has over scum. The moment a townie lies, it adds a lot of confusion and can also give scum a crutch to lie. There are some very rare cases where it's okay to lie (like in weird setups where you claim a different role than your own to throw off the night kill), but for the purposes of this newbie game, I highly encourage everyone townie NOT to lie, even when claiming power roles. So lynch all liars? Maybe a little extreme, but if we see someone lying in this game, we should fight tooth and nail to figure out why they lied, and at the very least reward them a massive load of scumpoints for doing so.

4) To some degree, but I think it's important to distinguish something. Remember that the goal of scum is to a) survive (or get partner to survive) and b) get other townies lynched. A lot of scum will try towntell a lot, since they are extremely concerned with their image. So I think there are cases where "too scummy to be scum" cannot be dismissed as a fallacy, for example when there is no scum motivation to do a lot of scummy things. If someone is lurking out, weirdly casting votes, etc., it doesn't necessarily mean that they're scum. They're doing some "scummy things", but sometimes stuff like this is indicative that the player is not concerned with their images. That being said, there are some times where this is a fallacy, for example if scum lays a hammer down on a townie very aggressively (generally, when scum does something that clearly benefits their alignment). In this case, using the "too scummy to be scum" logic is fallacious since getting that townie lynched clearly benefitted scum.

5) You can look in my old games for some meta and stuff. I'm pretty different across games tbh, and even within games. It kind of depends on how I feel. My last completed game was Newbie 1717, where I won (pretty luckily) as scum. Any completed game before that was more than 2 years ago, since I took a 2 year hiatus from this site, so take anything you see there with a grain of salt. What you might find is that sometimes I am generally fairly aggressive as town, am generally pretty good at townhunting (and therefore getting scum by PoE), and I am rarely concerned with my image (but don't take it from me, take it for yourself! And make sure to skim through at least two games each of my town and scum games before you make a hasty conclusion). I honestly am not a fan of playing scum (if I could, I would avoid playing it), and sometimes that reflects in my game. I try to emulate my aggressive town playstyle as scum, but posting for me feels very unnatural and forced when I am scum. Sometimes it works out okay, like in my most recent game, but sometimes it doesn't quite work out so well.

------

I recommend that everyone answers these questions (you don't have to write as much as me), or if you don't want to, explain why you don't like these questions. I won't be offended if you choose the latter, since I know how much people have gravitated away from RQS (but I wanted to bring it back ;) ).

Anyway,

VOTE: hiplop

Hi hiplop!! Nostalgia at its finest.

This is my second game with hiplop, ever. The first game I was with hiplop in was actually my very first game on this site, more than 4 years ago: Newbie 1222. He was also the IC in that game, and I was mostly a Village Idiot burden to the town (but, to be fair, my reads were nearly spot on besides the D1 mislynch lol). So if any of you newbies are concerned about this game, at least take solace in knowing that definitely you won't be as bad as I was in my first game :P. Hiplop I hope I've improved since then lol :D
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Post Post #17 (isolation #1) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:19 am

Post by innocentvillager »

hiplop wrote:I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.
I'm liking my current vote.

Guys if hiplop puts an inordinate amount of effort into this game, you know what to do.
In post 7, reso wrote:4) While I like to employ the Too Townie Fallacy, I don't think I've ever seen the Too Scummy Fallacy used as well to the same extent. While it might be particularly truer for new players, in regular play, scummy players just usually just actual scum.
I would agree with hiplop below:
hiplop wrote: 4) Is too scummy to be scum a fallacy, or not?
I actually think its sort of an accurate thing *sometimes*. Often the "scummmiest" looking person is just sort of awkward/trying to find their spot in the game!
Very rarely does a D1 lynch hit scum (less than probability would dictate, at least, since the D1 lynch definitely has a less than 22% success rate), and I think it is for this reason.

Well, we are not here to debate theory, lol, to each their own.
PhantomCobalt wrote:1. Those aren't random questions.

2. Why are you so defensive from the start?
1. Meh, sure it's not necessarily "random" in the most literal sense of the word per say, but I would still say they're useful questions that fit under RQS. If you want to call it QS instead of RQS, that's fine by me :P

Another reason I like doing "RQS/QS" is because we can get a baseline for how people play. For example, an RQS that I brought up actually kinda caught my scum buddy (derp) in the end.

2. ???
hiplop wrote:1) Have anyone of you played any off-site games?
2)How about on-site games? If so; How Many?
3) How would you describe yourself as an individual?
4) What do you think you will be remembered for this game?
6) Favourite pizza topping?
7) Favourite Movie?
8) Favourite Song/band/music genre?
1) Epicmafia I used to be pretty active in (1000+ games), but honestly MS is just so much more analytical and interesting, while EM has lately just devolved into quick hunches and rude AtE
2) I mostly play in Newbies and Opens because I like knowing the setup, so I've played I think 20-25 of those maybe?
3) Fairly introverted, however I am generally pretty nice (I can kinda be a dick on this site though since this is a game about arguing, but I promise not to personally attack anyone, I think that is ALWAYS uncalled for no matter what). Kinda quirky sometimes. If you're nice to me I'll definitely be nice to you, and if you're mean to me... well, I'll still try to be nice but no promises :P
4) No idea, I'm remembered for something pretty different each game.
5) Where is question 5? More scum points for hiplop.
6) Titties! Lol jk, probably bacon.
7) Inception
8) I'm a trashy pop/hip-hop kind of guy.
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Post Post #37 (isolation #2) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:36 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 21, PhantomCobalt wrote:
In post 6, innocentvillager wrote: I know, SE's you probably hate me and are
probably going to call me out on doing useless bullshit
, but I think it's a good way to start the game and to get a baseline for how we expect to play this game.
Umm yeah because I always receive mixed reviews to RQS. It's not like this is the first time I've proposed and RQS/gotten flack for doing so, it happens almost every game I propose one in; I'm not oblivious to its criticisms.

But especially because hiplop is here I really wanted to do one this time.

You're free to not answer the questions, idc.

I like these questions because it provides a baseline to how we think about reads. We can get our ideas about theory out there at the beginning of the game, and then use those as reference tells for how we read each other later in the day. IMO it's not just "noise", but I guess debateable. Of course responses to my questions are NAI now, but it might not be later as we see how people develop their reads.

And plus, it's the beginning of the day, everything is basically null anyway.

Again, I gave a real example of how we got another scumtell on someone in a previous game, if you want to see.
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Post Post #38 (isolation #3) » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:48 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Minor TR on mav and very minor one on RyanK.

Very minor SR on Rusty and Phantom.
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Post Post #53 (isolation #4) » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:18 am

Post by innocentvillager »

Can those without avatars please consider getting one?


It makes it much easier to differentiate between your posting, IMO. Honestly an avatar of anything will be awesome. Thanks!
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Post Post #54 (isolation #5) » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:18 am

Post by innocentvillager »

Experienced players can second me on this too.
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Post Post #55 (isolation #6) » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:19 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 46, PhantomCobalt wrote:
In post 45, RyanK wrote:Well, you aren't over reacting, so he has already see that you could handle pressure quite well.
Experienced players never over react to RVS wagons, because they know they are 99% not going to be lynched.
True, unless it's L-1 in a Newbie game lmao. I'm pretty sure this has happened before, where someone got to L-1 and a newbtown hammered on accident.
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Post Post #60 (isolation #7) » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:33 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 57, Maverick1102 wrote:Because honestly, I strongly feel this is fluff and distraction. Same from IV.
Like I said, I've used this type of stance on common tells to catch people in scumtells/self-contradictions before. If everyone answers these questions, scum can no longer bullshit scumtells that aren't in accordance from what they said at the beginning of the game. It confines everyone to a framework.

Like if you said lurking is NAI but then attacked the lowest poster, I'd be pretty suspicious. Stuff like this happens. That would imply scum is not being sincere in their scumhunting.
Maverick1102 wrote:IV, people can change their own meta if they're aware of it (as hiplop is). I would never teach newbies to follow that kind of information and I think your vote is there for either misplaced reasons or I haven't fully understood them.

Could you clarify? Is your vote based on Hiplop's self-meta?
Dude my was a joke, lmao. I don't actually have a read on hiplop.

I am more than aware that people can change their meta, intentionally or not.
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Post Post #62 (isolation #8) » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:50 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 61, Maverick1102 wrote:Have you no stronger reads for voting yet?
not really
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Post Post #68 (isolation #9) » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:30 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 64, reso wrote:To me, this part feels incredibly weird. You could be actually using an actual example, OR you slipped and told us that IV has a powerful role in this game, and the only way you could possibly know that is if you knew what IV is before the start of the game. It's also worth noting that IV has noted you as having a very minor TR in Post 38, despite not having had contributed anything gamewise prior to said Post 38.
Lmfao, yep you caught the scumteam already, gg.

He was replying to my comment, I don't see why him using me as an example is so sketchy. If he had said anyone else's name, then YEAH that's weird as shit.

Why does it matter that I have a very minor TR on Ryan?
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Post Post #70 (isolation #10) » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:51 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 69, reso wrote:How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?
Just got a general feeling that was trying to engage with the game, and honestly I gave a townpoint or a half for him when he switched votes soon after his first post, which showed some fearlessness.
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Post Post #71 (isolation #11) » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:52 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

V/LA until Friday
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Post Post #87 (isolation #12) » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:17 am

Post by innocentvillager »

This wagon on me is weird. That is all I have to say for now.
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Post Post #106 (isolation #13) » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:18 am

Post by innocentvillager »

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

Policy lynching PhantomCobalt for putting me at L-1 without declaring. You should know better. This is not fucking Rusty's fault, it is 90% yours.
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Post Post #107 (isolation #14) » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:19 am

Post by innocentvillager »

Unless I see incontrovertible evidence Phantom isn't scum or Rusty is scum, I'm not moving my vote for the rest of the day. There was no town fucking motivation behind that vote.
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Post Post #110 (isolation #15) » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:24 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 109, PhantomCobalt wrote:
In post 107, innocentvillager wrote:Unless I see incontrovertible evidence Phantom isn't scum or Rusty is scum, I'm not moving my vote for the rest of the day. There was no town fucking motivation behind that vote.
If you're saying no town motivation, you're calling it scummy. How is it a PL then?
It was extremely anti town which makes it a PL
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Post Post #111 (isolation #16) » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:25 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 108, PhantomCobalt wrote:
In post 106, innocentvillager wrote:VOTE: PhantomCobalt

Policy lynching PhantomCobalt for putting me at L-1 without declaring. You should know better. This is not fucking Rusty's fault, it is 90% yours.
i thought you were L-2 when I voted you
Ya before you voted me
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Post Post #113 (isolation #17) » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:27 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 112, PhantomCobalt wrote:And to prove that I didn't know, why did I unvote IV after the Rusty vote? Cuz I thought it was L-1 and I didnt want anyone to QH
I was almost going to retract my scumread on you for that until you brought it up yourself
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Post Post #114 (isolation #18) » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:31 am

Post by innocentvillager »

Explain how you thought it was L-2. What did you miss?? Also did you include Rusty's vote when you said it was L-2 (after you invited)?
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Post Post #161 (isolation #19) » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:32 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 116, hiplop wrote:I agree somewhat with the conclusion. He should have called it, especially being an SE. However, this raged seems a bit fake to me.
hiplop, you're seriously telling me you wouldn't be pissed if you almost got quickhammered due to an SE and a newbies' ignorance?
In post 116, hiplop wrote:Strong questioning. Reso feels very, very town for me right now.
I don't see it at all, in fact the fact that he thinks he's got the scumteam pinned from maybe one or two RVS interactions is laughable at best scummy at worst.

RyanK is probably town. I'm getting weird scumvibes from hiplop.

Also can we please stop with the quote pyramids it's terrible thanks
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Post Post #162 (isolation #20) » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:35 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 118, hiplop wrote:Both are bad and have no place in the newbie queue
WRT the policy lynch suggestion on Cobalt I meant PL very loosely, I don't mean policy lynch even though I think he's town, I meant a "Policy Lynch" as in he did something super antitown which in and of itself is scummy as well. Maybe the terminology was confusing you guys, I hate policy lynches against people who are almost certainly town but are intentionally acting antitown.
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Post Post #164 (isolation #21) » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:20 am

Post by innocentvillager »

Mav, how do you feel about my L-1 wagon and how reso/Phantom/Rusty/maybe others reacted to it?
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Post Post #184 (isolation #22) » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:32 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

reso wrote:
In post 161, innocentvillager wrote:I don't see it at all, in fact the fact that he thinks he's got the scumteam pinned from maybe one or two RVS interactions is laughable at best scummy at worst.
If you think my questions range from laughable to scummy, I would think it would be easy to dispute/discuss any, if not all, of my questions to you. But you instead chose to ignore them.
Wtf I never said anything about your questions?? I'm saying that your case on me/RyanK is based off of one or two RVS interactions, and you are just speculatively confbiasing off of that now whenever you see new evidence.

LIke this is literally your case:
In post 64, reso wrote:
In post 44, RyanK wrote:
In post 6, innocentvillager wrote:...
3) Lynch "all" liars or no?
....
Maybe not,
for example, innocentvillager drew a very powerful role.
He should lie about it and do whatever he needs to so he won't be a night-kill targer. This creates a WIFOM, though, and he may get killed.
To me, this part feels incredibly weird. You could be actually using an actual example, OR you slipped and told us that IV has a powerful role in this game, and the only way you could possibly know that is if you knew what IV is before the start of the game. It's also worth noting that IV has noted you as having a very minor TR in Post 38, despite not having had contributed anything gamewise prior to said Post 38.

If RyanK and IV are both mafia, then who would I like to see out first......

UNVOTE: DistructiveNick
VOTE: innocentvillager, just purely on the fact that I feel like the Too Townie Fallacy is going to hit me harder from IV than RyanK.
FoS: RyanK
Which is laughable at best and scummy at worst.
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Post Post #189 (isolation #23) » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:49 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

No longer townreading RyanK. Later posts are uncomfortably accusatory and weirdly OMGUSy
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Post Post #194 (isolation #24) » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:00 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 149, RyanK wrote:There is no
clear
evidence I'm a scum.
Random note while ISOing, I the usage of the word "clear" gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Why say "clear" at all? Imagine replacing that word with the synonym "definitive" or something similar—scummy. There is a weird implication that you are claiming scum here. It's like when obvious criminals shout, "Lol there's no hard evidence against me!" instead of just "There's no evidence against me!"
RyanK wrote:
In post 189, innocentvillager wrote:No longer townreading RyanK. Later posts are uncomfortably accusatory and weirdly OMGUSy
Was trying to get you to say that, innocentvillager. At least now I know you aren't town reading me for no good reason.
What is this referring to? Did you ever question my townread on you? I think I gave reasons for townreading you, even if they were tenuous.
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Post Post #196 (isolation #25) » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:08 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Fuck I'm getting towny vibes from that post.

I don't know what to think about you anymore.
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Post Post #300 (isolation #26) » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:03 am

Post by innocentvillager »

Mav is making me feel uncomfortable with his tunneling, but not sure if its confbias (whether right or wrong) or scum baiting a mislynch.
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Post Post #310 (isolation #27) » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:02 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Sorry I know i just V/LA'd but I did still post some so:
V/LA until Monday


Need to sort some RL shit.
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Post Post #359 (isolation #28) » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:14 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Fuck I have a lot to read for tomorrow...
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Post Post #392 (isolation #29) » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:42 am

Post by innocentvillager »

will get to this today sorry.
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Post Post #492 (isolation #30) » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:17 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Hi guys, really sorry I haven't checked in yet/posted real content. I promise content tomorrow, or I definitely replace out. It might not be comprehensive bc I have a lot of RL stress, but I'll at least read through the thread and formulate some reads and you guys can ask me if you want me to look at more specific stuff.
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Post Post #584 (isolation #31) » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:43 am

Post by innocentvillager »

I should've been paying more attention to this game. I wasn't actually THAT confident on Cobalt but I kept my vote there anyway. Meh. I need to start putting some effort into this.
In post 583, Maverick1102 wrote:This table from Ryan is garbage in my opinion.
Instead of just unhelpfully complaining about how a newbie is trying to scumhunt, why don't you actually explain why it's bad?
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Post Post #619 (isolation #32) » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:44 am

Post by innocentvillager »

Apologies, but I will be V/LA until Monday afternoon. I've been ignoring RL duties/exam week but I'll try to still post maybe once or twice at least.
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Post Post #717 (isolation #33) » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:45 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Tomorrow. I promise to get to this tomorrow. And will maybe do some stuff tonight.
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Post Post #718 (isolation #34) » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:46 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 716, Maverick1102 wrote:Only Scum!Hiplop could know IV's alignment and 'clear' him.
Are you forgetting something lol
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Post Post #720 (isolation #35) » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:19 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 719, Maverick1102 wrote:Are you his partner?
Are you expecting a useful answer to your question?
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Post Post #730 (isolation #36) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:56 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Hey friends! I am here, and reading up on the thread.

I tried PbPa recently in other games, no way am I going to try that for 30 pages.

I'll probably just give reads, maybe quote a couple of things I think are noteworthy, but I'm mostly focused on reading up so I can actually engage with players this game.
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Post Post #731 (isolation #37) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:47 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 420, reso wrote:I have nullreads for Vaxkiller, hiplop, and innocentvillager. I don't think that activity (or a lack of) is very AI. There's really not much the contributions of Vaxkiller and hiplop to talk about.

While IV does have more to talk about, it really doesn't feel like much more. He's ignored the majority of my questions regarding what I thought of my link of RyanK between himself. I still think his Post #70/Iso #10 is weird. He has more coming up, so I can for that to come out.
In post 436, Maverick1102 wrote:Would rather see you flip scum and potentially find out which setup we're playing in to be honest.
Hey, sorry, was doing other stuff but eventually got back to this

I am all caught up in terms of reading, but am getting tired AF so I may or may not have skimmed past some of the walls especially D2.

Scum is in: {Vax, Mav, Vedith}

Everyone else is obvtown.

Ask me questions you have.
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Post Post #732 (isolation #38) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:53 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Ignore quotes, sorry.

I think I was very minorly townreading RyanK at the very beginning because:

1) Tonal/general willingness to engage with this game is townie. He even told everyone when he was going to go offline. I instantly got the feeling that he was going to be an active poster, and I was right.

2) On his moving the wagon vote. I could tell RyanK was probably pretty new at mafia, and especially since he didn't have games on this site, he wouldn't know anything about RVS or how serious the votes are. Yet, I got no sense of typical newbscum fear/tempered posting. From a glance it looked bold, confident, genuine.

I may be letting later posts of RyanK cloud how I was actually feeling like 2+ weeks ago, but I just had a feeling that slot could be town.
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Post Post #734 (isolation #39) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:58 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

I'm conflicted on Mav since his play is similar to 1722 where he was town and we deathtunneled each other and eventually ended up ccing each other as the diagonal PR.

But maybe Mav is trying to emulate town meta with his deathtunneling here.

@Mav, do you have any scumgames you can link me?

@Everyone
I want to deeply apologize for promising content multiple times and each time not following through. My reason was due to RL exam week stuff (paid off though, snagged an A in my biochem class!), and me being in more games than I could handle, so I prioritizing posting in games where I was reasonably caught up. As this game drifted further and further along, I became increasingly apathetic about trying to catch up with this game, so I kind of avoided it while posting in other games. Still, it is not an excuse for constantly breaking promises, and it is something I normally do not do but I did multiple times this game. Again, my apologies for kind of stalling out the game and my slot.

Now that I am caught up, however, I imagine I will be more active on this thread.

VOTE: Vaxkiller

I have a lot more investigating to do (I haven't really ISO'd anyone yet), but for now I'm liking Vax for scum. Mav and Vedith I will need to sort later.

If have questions (which I'm sure you guys have), ask away and I will respond tomorrow.
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Post Post #735 (isolation #40) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:01 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 733, Vedith wrote:@IV - So to confirm, you are sayign that HipLop is town, correct?
Yeah.

There were definitely multiple points in the thread where I would be thinking something and hiplop just came in and posted exact same thoughts. Like e.g. stuff on how Vaxkiller looked super gut scummy but he couldn't put a finger to it thing.

There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.

You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.
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Post Post #736 (isolation #41) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:06 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Yeah Vax is pinging my gut scumdar so hard.
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Post Post #737 (isolation #42) » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:07 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 729, Vaxkiller wrote:I really thought innocent villager, but that seems WAY to obvious, but then maybe its just WIFOM.....
Like does this quote for one just not sound terrible and extremely forced
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Post Post #749 (isolation #43) » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:43 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Spoiler: reso 738
In post 738, reso wrote:
In post 735, innocentvillager wrote:You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.
Here is his complete statement:
In post 14, hiplop wrote:5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
Hmmm... I try to shake things up. Especially once your meta becomes known being able to adapt both is super important. I think I've played too many games for their to a concrete answer to either of these? I tend to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.
You're right in that he has stated that he 'tends to put a little more effort in' (you over-exaggerated it; why choose to over-exaggerate than simply tell it as it is? At the moment, I perceive this as an indirect AoE). But before that statement, he's also said he tends to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I would have loved to see this 'aggressive'-ness, but instead we get what you have described him as, 'very lazy-experienced'. I agree that he doesn't give a fuck about this game. He's being anti-game, and want him to get his act in order. I want to see his Beast-mode.


Hiplop definitely prefers the mafia alignment, and he said he would put more effort in.

Look at Newbie 1704, for example. He was V/LA many times during that game, but he still managed to post a LOT even while in that game.

His tone is also completely different. I don't see any lackadaisical-town vibes from it, hiplop always looked like he has some sort of agenda in that game. Here, honestly I see no agenda for hiplop, and that combined with the fact that he tries more/is better at/likes mafia-alignment, are all strong clues that he's town here. I suggest you all at least skim hiplop's ISO that game if you are voting for him and see if that changes your mind, I'll admit this is a bit less concrete than a lot of townreads.
In post 740, Maverick1102 wrote:I have no scumgames yet on-site IV, much as I'd want one. I don't put faith in Metanalysis anyway as you ought to know so I'd rather your reads on me were based on just this game, to remove the WIFOM element.
I am aware that meta means jackshit sometimes, but I think it definitely can be useful. For example, if I TR or SR someone for anything, if I have some time and I'm really curious about the read, I will look for scum/town games to see if I get the same read I am getting here. If, for example, I scumreading someone for something when I see they've done it in another game where he flipped town for that, that speaks volumes about that player, so clearly my SR for that can't be trusted. The same is true vice-versa. For you, it would've been particularly nice for you to have a scumgame on here, so I can tonal-read you and see if you're just as tunnelly as scum as you were here and another game I knew you were town in. If you were also tunnelly like this in your scumgame/gave me a similar vibe to 1722 or something, I would know not to townread you for doing stuff like this.

So while yes, looking at stuff in a vacuum is generally a good way to read stuff, meta can help me get a bigger picture of what you are at least CAPABLE of as both alignments.

It's a shame you don't have a scumgame here yet (or maybe this is your first? :D ).
In post 741, Vedith wrote:
In post 735, innocentvillager wrote:There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.
So is there town motivation for the way he is playing?
Looks like bored townie who didn't really feel like catching up, kind of like me.

After all of the pages that were literally with ridiculous math/semantic arguments, it's not hard to imagine the genuine apathy that arises.

Spoiler: Response to RyanK 742
In post 742, RyanK wrote:This is my full case against innocentvillager.
In post 735, innocentvillager wrote:...
There were definitely multiple points in the thread where I would be thinking something and hiplop just came in and posted exact same thoughts. Like e.g. stuff on how Vaxkiller looked super gut scummy but he couldn't put a finger to it thing.
...
Since you agree with hiplop that Vaxkiller is scummy, please state why.

I told you I couldn't really put a finger on it, much like hiplop earlier. That one post I just quoted is an example of some of the gut scummy things he says. When someone ends something with "Then again, maybe it is just all wifom OMINOUS DOT DOT DOT" it looks like they're just outing reads to say stuff without actually scumhunting and it looks insincere.

You're right on that I have to do more analysis on Vax though. So far, it's been PoE, gut, hiplop's agreement that he's scum, and tonal tells like this.
In post 735, innocentvillager wrote:...
There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.
...
How did you know that?

Because I don't see any scum-motivation? I've explained why I don't think scum!hiplop is nearly as plausible as town!hiplop.
In post 735, innocentvillager wrote:...
You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.
If you understand hiplop's reads, please explain each one of them. I don't understand why he reads Maverick1102, reso, innocentvillager as town and need some understanding.

I can kinda understand mav as confbiased townie but without a scumgame I'm not going to bank on that as a towntell so Mav is more of a null for me, but I feel hiplop on the reasoning since I am gut-inclined to townread him for looking confbiased and not ML-motivated.

I know I'm town, but also his TR on me is... well... let's just leave it at I know I'm town :D

reso's thought process is sooooo transparent and it's obvious, like you, that he's trying to find scum and is just honestly not approaching this like a newbscum would at all. Some specific posts really set my towndar off, but I'm not going to try and find those unless you reallllly want me to.

Now, normally I might try some weird gambit where I scumread one of you as a fake-out to save you from the NK, but at this point, three of you are pretty strong TRs and I highly doubt we will lose this game.

In post 738, reso wrote:...
Here is his complete statement:
In post 14, hiplop wrote:5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
Hmmm... I try to shake things up. Especially once your meta becomes known being able to adapt both is super important. I think I've played too many games for their to a concrete answer to either of these? I tend to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.
...
What is the purpose of taking hiplop's words out of context?
I don't think I did?

In post 747, Vaxkiller wrote:
In post 739, reso wrote:I honestly don't care if his 'Beast-mode' rips me a new asshole open. In this game of learning, tough love is always good love. I. WANT. TO SEE. THIS. BEAST-MODE.
Yeah, I would like to see that too. I think we were starting to see a little of it, but, too little to late. I'm sure it might be hard for some people to separate RL and the game, but I think those of us who are left are all adults, right?

@innocentvillager Why is hiplop obvtown? I'm pretty sure you and him are the only people who think that.
He's not as obvtown as RyanK and reso, but I'm still pretty confident in him being town. Plus, the fact that his wagon is basically unopposed is pretty sketchy. If anyone thinks that implies a me-hiplop scumteam... well... LOL go ahead and be bad :lol: .
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Post Post #825 (isolation #44) » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:49 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Hey sorry prodge, am busyt his weekend will post monday.
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Post Post #847 (isolation #45) » Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:55 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Fuck

hiplop is town dude

I'm pretty sure you hammered wrong
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Post Post #848 (isolation #46) » Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:57 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

RyanK's "case" on me from what I've seen doesn't make any sense. Ryan, feel free to quote it tomorrow for me.

I'm really disappointed hiplop was killed over Vax, but to be fair, I wasn't super active and pushing the Vax lynch so I'm partially responsible for this.

One of Vax/Vedith is scum, and I wanted to figure out who it was today by testing Vax flip, but we probably won't be getting that luxury tomorrow in lylo.

hiplop please flip scum by some miracle
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Post Post #870 (isolation #47) » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:37 am

Post by innocentvillager »

RYANK SERIOUS UNVOTE THIS IS LYLO SO SCUM CAN QUICKHAMMER

NO ONE SHOULD BE VOTING
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Post Post #871 (isolation #48) » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:40 am

Post by innocentvillager »

I don't even know what the fuck to think. This is annoying as shit. My reads were so off this game.

Vas is town because of Mav. Which means somehow I was wrong on either RYANK or reso??? I really think Vedith has to be scum here. But I don't even know, since I had reso and RYANK at hard town. Fuck

Anyway EVERONE VOTING NEEDS TO UNCOTE now before scum can QUICKHAMMER.
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Post Post #872 (isolation #49) » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:40 am

Post by innocentvillager »

Oh wait

I'm an idiot

It's not LYLO

Lmfao I am so sorry guys
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Post Post #873 (isolation #50) » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:41 am

Post by innocentvillager »

Fuck me I need a break from this game
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Post Post #879 (isolation #51) » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:40 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

I still like Vedith for scum then, since I really think reso and RyanK are town.

The only reason I see Mav dying is if scum was sure Mav was PR of some sort. Perhaps his strong hinting that Vax was town based on a terrible town case and suspicion to hiplop's PR softing was enough for scum to kill mav.

Vax is almost certainly town bc of proportionality Mav's townread doesn't make sense for that one thing.

VOTE: Vedith

That's L-1

A HAMMER IS A SCUMCLAIM UNLESS VEDITH FLIPS MAF. DO NOT HAMMER UNLESS YOU ARE SCUM. Let's give Vedith a chance to get in here first.
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Post Post #888 (isolation #52) » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:06 am

Post by innocentvillager »

RyanK wrote:EBWOP: innocentvillager, why did you have a scumread on Vaxkiller?
You've asked me this before dude
In post 749, innocentvillager wrote:I told you I couldn't really put a finger on it, much like hiplop earlier. That one post I just quoted is an example of some of the gut scummy things he says. When someone ends something with "Then again, maybe it is just all wifom OMINOUS DOT DOT DOT" it looks like they're just outing reads to say stuff without actually scumhunting and it looks insincere.

You're right on that I have to do more analysis on Vax though. So far, it's been PoE, gut, hiplop's agreement that he's scum, and tonal tells like this.
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Post Post #889 (isolation #53) » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:08 am

Post by innocentvillager »

RyanK I know you have good intentions but please don't post extra votecounts especially when Xalxe has just posted one. It creates clutter in the thread.

Of course, it's perfectly fine if Xalxe has not posted in a while and a lot of votes have gone by.
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Post Post #890 (isolation #54) » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:08 am

Post by innocentvillager »

*Firebringer not Xalxe lol
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Post Post #908 (isolation #55) » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:45 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Everyone else is obvtown. Vedith is therefore scum.

Rusty was definitely leaning scum too with that terrible hammer.

Vedith and I were both on the hiplop wagon, scum bussing hiplop at that point is not optimal honestly with super town people.

There is a very small chance that like Vax or RyanK is scum, but I highly doubt it.

It's very simple. Lynch me and Vedith and win.
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Post Post #935 (isolation #56) » Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:41 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 909, RyanK wrote:Please explain why you have a townread on reso and a scum read on Vedith. It's going to be really useful.
Reso's thought process is super transparent and it's clear he's genuinely trying to solve the game, like you

Also that hammer on hiplop over Vax basically confirms him as town (otherwise it's a great scumplay, but very unlikely).

Vedith is scum by PoE since everyone else is clearly town.
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Post Post #936 (isolation #57) » Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:44 am

Post by innocentvillager »

I mentioned other points for Vedith earlier, like how on Day 2, scum is very very likely on the Vax wagon over the hiplop wagon, esp when both are at L-1. Those people were me, Vedith, and hiplop. Scum is in here.

Rusty's terrible hammer in the beginning was almost a newbscum claim but not quite. Seemed like trolling newbscum.
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Post Post #937 (isolation #58) » Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:45 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 911, Vedith wrote:
In post 908, innocentvillager wrote:It's very simple. Lynch me and Vedith and win.
If you're town, you know for a fact this is a terrible comment.

If I'm lynched today and then you are tomorrow and you're town, then do we put the lose purely down to this thought process?

Even if either of us are the lynch tomorrow, it should be no way the certain lynch and all people alive need to be considered.
No one is confirmed unless 1 - Mod confirms it 2 - They have died and flipped
Lol now you're just desperate to avoid getting lynched. You know that once this goes through, you're screwed.

And if RyanK or reso is the last scum we were never winning this anyway, and if Vax is scum we'll blame Mav postgame.

REgardless, it's clear you and I are the lynches no matter what perspective you look at it from. It's just a matter of order.
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Post Post #961 (isolation #59) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:04 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 952, Vedith wrote:Also, to point out, IV into hiding again. :up:
I guess ignoring the game gets you town cred these days. :giggle:
You're right, I am ignoring the game. I have no reason to care about towncred at this point. I have limited time and this game is definitely not a concern for me. If you're not scum, we lose, plain and simple. There is no way that Vax, RyanK or reso are getting lynched short of a scumclaim. Only scum would try to weasel their way out of the situation the two of us are in out of desperation.
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Post Post #963 (isolation #60) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:10 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

contradiction how
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Post Post #964 (isolation #61) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:12 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

If you flip town somehow, we're screwed. I wouldn't have any fucking clue who the remaining scum is because I have reso, RyanK, and Vax all at HARD TOWN. I would have no idea what to do, and scum and the remaining town would just vote me off. Nothing I would be able to do to prevent it. Why put time into this game if the outcome is decided?
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Post Post #966 (isolation #62) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:17 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 965, Vedith wrote:IV just claimed scum giving up.
Good one
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Post Post #994 (isolation #63) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:54 am

Post by innocentvillager »

I don't understand why Vedith is trying so hard or trying to paint me as scum if he himself basically admits that I'm right (that me and him are the two getting lynched) LOL.
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Post Post #1001 (isolation #64) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:15 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

La la la la

La la la la

Heyeyey

Gooooodbye

La la la la
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Post Post #1005 (isolation #65) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:47 pm

Post by innocentvillager »

Nah Goodbye to Vedith because he just sounds so desperate and reachy LOL
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Post Post #1036 (isolation #66) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:02 am

Post by innocentvillager »

Lmfao wtf Mav you troll
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Post Post #1037 (isolation #67) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:06 am

Post by innocentvillager »

In post 719, Maverick1102 wrote:Are you his partner?
lol
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Post Post #1038 (isolation #68) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:08 am

Post by innocentvillager »

I have to apologize to tone on this one for being so wrong on hiplop. Tbh one of the biggest reasons I townread him was because I didn't think hiplop was this bad as scum LOL (no offense, hiplop)

It's just like his ISO individually was so null and reactionary that it didn't actually look like he cared so I took that as a queue that he wasn't playing his favorite alignment

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