Mewbie 1538: GIANTS LOST

[VictorDeAngelo]

/comfirmed

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: Riabi

For taking the first post

[VictorDeAngelo]

Some early SE advice; when voting try to use the vote tags or bold your votes. This makes life easier for mods and other players. Simply type:

Code: Select all

[vote]Thesp[/vote]

to get

VOTE: Thesp

or

Code: Select all

[b]Vote: Thesp[/b]

to get

Vote: Thesp

although fair warning - some mods may not accept the second method of voting. Mala can clarify whether she minds or not.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Vonflare

- How was Konata's vote any more arbitrary than anyone else?

@Jester

- is there a reason you didn't vote Vonflare in 24?

@Sky_Paladin

- Lol, I didn't intend to, UNVOTE: (fyi there are tags for them too, but I'll see if peeps can discover them for themselves )

@Vonflare

- How many players are familiar with the phrase OMGUS. If not look it up in the wiki, and then look at the end of 26 for a good example of it.

VOTE: Vonflare

[VictorDeAngelo]

It seems this game is under way.

Hello, everybody! I'm your friendly Inexperience-Challenged Player here. I'm happy to help explain anything you don't understand or might have questions about. I'm glad to have you aboard! I also appreciate the verbosity from several players already. (And I

especially

appreciate use of the vote tags - I'd love to see that as a site-wide mandatory standard, so I'm glad to see it being discussed here.) Now to find the scum.

Many games open with what's understood as a Random Voting Stage. Some people argue this is good or necessary for the game. I'm decidedly less interested in it, as my history may indicate. Instead, I vastly prefer to open by asking everyone a few questions that help me get a better sense of who they are as players. So, if you would, can you answer these two questions for me?

1. How much experience do you have playing Mafia/Werewolf, either in person or online?
2. How good are you at lying?

Thanks!

Even if you don't like rvs, why didn't you comment on the stuff that come out of the rvs phase and instead

1. I'm one of the SEs and have been on the site since my startdate and must have somewhere between several and a dozen games under my belt now.
2. I wouldn't know, I have never told a lie.

Now I have a question for those of you that are voting for me, or have a scum read on me:
What exactly is your argument against me?

I gave reason in the same post. Why are you so concerned about a "case" against you this early on?

This looks like a hop onto an easy wagon, or an attempt to start a wagon.

VOTE: skypaladin

In fact,

your

vote looks like a hop on an easy wagon.

For now I think Sky_Paladin's vote was a genuine newb-town play. I doubt a newb-scum (which tend to be overly cautious) would start a bandwagon openly like that.

Why do you think Sky would be an easy wagon?

I'm not yet ready to vote his way, I'm not sure he's deserving of a wagon just yet, but, he's my only real read right now and he's a lean-scum for sure.

What is your read on me? What about the others?

If Vonflare is scum, this post deserves more scrutiny later on.

FoS The Jester

for multiple points in 44.

Raibi and Stavrogin are looking town. Everyone else needs to posting more.

Anyway, fish supper time.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Why do you think Sky would be an easy wagon?

I meant it as easy in vonflare's mind at the time. He obviously felt like Sky did a big mistake and wanted to turn it around on him.

Without being a mindreader how

FoS The Jester

for multiple points in 44.

What points exactly and why?

Ok, let's expand:

Unlike some people in this game,

I don't really put much weight on the reasons people use for RVS

RVS is already over.

1

I typically use how folks react to the votes as my initial reads, and

there hasn't been much reaction from many folks just yet.

You're calling my and Viktor's votes no reaction?

What's your opinion on Sky_Paladin's vote on vonflare?
What's your opinion on my and ViktorDeAngelo's votes on vonflare?
Which one of our three do you find the most town and why?

2

2. I'm not answering this, it's a silly question.

Why? Do you have something to hide? Are you afraid we're gonna lynch you the second you admit you're a good liar?

3

You contradict yourself by commenting on the metagame and then admitting that you have no experience.

Thesp asked us about our experience

playing

mafia and I answered accordingly. However, while waiting in the queue I've studied the wiki and multiple other game threads and this combined with my gut is what I base my judgements on.

4

What you're doing now is a classical OMGUS play:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... d_You_Suck

You're scummy like hell.

1

This just seemed like a cheap shot. A small point in the scheme of things really.

2

I hated this question, too aware with trying to see how townie your appearing, which tends to be a good scumtell.

3

This seemed too aggressive, similar to the first point, it feels as though your looking for something to attack, rather than hunting scum naturally.

4

The sentence just feels overexplained, right down to the unneeded wiki link.

I'm not yet ready to vote his way, I'm not sure he's deserving of a wagon just yet, but, he's my only real read right now and he's a lean-scum for sure.

What is your read on me? What about the others?

If Vonflare is scum, this post deserves more scrutiny later on.

Why is that?

It feels as though Jester is looking to deflect attention away from Vonflare.

Out of interest why do you sense that Von and Jester can't be buddies together?

I'm not going to answer Thesp's questions 1 and 2 because they will become self evident and answerable after the game has ended.

And I'll just link that with this

Short pop in - Thesp, I really appreciated you going to the effort to link all those games. Therefore, I'll bow to your superior experience and go with the flow.

1 - I've played around sixty to seventy games between MegaTokyo and Shrine Maiden and one at Serene's Forest. I've hosted about...8 or 9 games I think.
2 - I'm known as an untrustworthy scum bastard amongst MegaTokyo, but I've yet to make that reputation at Shrine Maiden. I wonder how it will go here.

I couldn't see any real townie reason to dodge the questions initially and the flip flop feels like scum eager to please when they sense danger.

I like Konata's 90. Consequently I am a little confused by Thesp's vote in 99.

Also Thesp, can you explain what you mean by policy here (101)?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Hypoclaiming could work for jk as well. However the other roles aren't as necessary.

One alternative option which prs might want to look into is crumbing (which you can read about here). The trick is not to be too obvious or the scum could notice and nk. Results can crumbed as well at the start of day, then if the cop dies players might be able to look back.

If a pr gets a useful result (cop guilty or tracker tracks a kill) then they should out it the next day, along with a fullclaim. Only crumb results which do not point to scum.

However if people prefer to go down the hypoclaiming route I would support that too.

[VictorDeAngelo]

The flame avatar obviously confuses people.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm confused Riabi, do you think Jester is scum?

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE: Vonflare
VOTE: Riabi

[VictorDeAngelo]

Just a quick one before I do a bigger read and post;

I noticed Thesp and VictorDeAngelo both vote shifted without explanation. Although Thesp at least appears to have something up his sleeve, I'd like an explanation eventually, and also something from Victor as well.

Mainly, it's for the fact he has kept his vote on The_Jester all this time but is now trying to say he doesn't find him as scummy as Vonflare.

Also victor why the no-explaination vote? You could at least write a little about how you agree with my or Thesps case against him, bit you just leave the naked vote. Why?

You didn't seem to have a problem with it until Sky brought the issue up. Why did you need another player to bring up before it concerned you?

UNVOTE: Riabi

That escalated quickly. Same reason as unvoting before - no accidental hammers.

FoS Sky_Paladin

You were the one who put at L-1, even after noting the votes on him. This feels engineered to try and look townie.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Just a quick one.

You were the one who put at L-1, even after noting the votes on him. This feels engineered to try and look townie.

I voted about ten minutes before the tally appeared, and immediately unvoted. I didn't realise there were already three votes on him.

I didn't 'note the votes' as you say, what are you referring to here?

Yeah you did. You straight up quoted both mine and Thesp's vote and commented on them in 158. At the same time you voted you said:

VOTE: Riabi for my own points + points raised by Thesp and Vorflare.

So you at least read Vonflare's post. The question is, if your so concerned about the size of the wagon why didn't you check the number of votes on Riabi before voting.

Victor just caught something interesting. Sky paladin PUT Riabi at L-1, and then subsequently unvoted because "it escalated. Too quickly" and to "prevent accidental hammers". This, as anyone can see, makes absolutely no sense. Explain please.

'That escalated quickly' is a common idiom in Western Society, I think it started from an Anchorman quote. It just means something trivial suddenly became major.

Seriously, you thought that the issue here was Von was sitting around thinking " 'That escalated quickly' is a quirky saying. I don't fully understand what he's saying so it must be scummy". The issue he has is clearly the same I have. You claim to not like how quickly it has escalated but you voted after seeing three people get on the Riabi wagon and then after you put him at L-1 you're suddenly worried about the pace. That's crap.

That said I'm pretty happy with a Riabi lynch at the moment, but I was happy with a Vorflare lynch yesterday, let's see what tomorrow brings.

Out of interest, what are your current feelings on Vonflare?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I like Konata's 90

1

. Consequently I am a little confused by Thesp's vote in 99.

Why/Explain? Both points.

I can't remember specifically what I liked now. But given how I liked the post Thesp thought was scummy it should be obvious why I didn't like his shift in vote.

Also can you explain my question towards you that you missed/avoided in 90?

It's good to follow up on this, but the Raibi points are somewhat moot now. Strav his been fairly consistent in questioning/scumhunting and has appeared to be analyses the game (at least as far as you can for the first few pages) which is a good early indicator someone is town.


180 - Pretty weak that Riabi has nothing better to do at this point that bring hypoclaiming again. Smells like scum defeatism.

Victor I noted Thesp and vonflares points, not their votes. And in any case one plus one plus one is three, not four. Hence my surprise that Riabi was on four votes with mine.

Not buying this, even if you want us to believe that you missed Vonflares vote in his post, you clearly noted two votes and I don't believe that someone concerned with wagons moving too quickly would see a quick succession of votes and throw theirs in the mix.

Bottom line, there is very very little information that scum are trying to figure out in this game. Hypoclaiming just makes that job easier. I don't see why a townie would suggest it. I just don't

Just as was thinking Sky Paladin this makes me think he might be town. This does not read like one buddy distancing from another.

This is categorically untrue. I've never said I won't share my reasons. I've said I won't share my notes, those are not the same things.

Yes they are. Reasons. Notes. Either way, you are withholding information, which is NOT in the interest of the town.

Bullshit. They are not the same thing. My notes ramble and wander. They inform my reasonings, and those I share with town.

---

Very disappointed that Jester seems to have stopped posting. Yes, I realize that sometimes RL gets in the way, but, the timing is suspicious.

@Thesp... migranes suck. Get some rest. When you do, I'm curious if you have any thoughts about vonflare's misrep of me?

@Lapsa, it's also incredibly suspicious how little you've posted. Can we hear some real substance from you please?

tl;dr - "These guys are all way scummier than I am, you guys should totally think of lynching them instead"

The only reason not to follow through with a Riabi lynch at this point is I want to hear Lapsa before the day ends.

[VictorDeAngelo]

180 - Pretty weak that Riabi has nothing better to do at this point that bring hypoclaiming again. Smells like scum defeatism.

I wasn't bringing it up. I was responding to Konata's post just three posts prior to mine.

Konato's post brought a number of points. Why did you only respond to the hypoclaiming part?

tl;dr - "These guys are all way scummier than I am, you guys should totally think of lynching them instead"

Either that, or, an attempt to actually discuss other things. Since the focus seems to be on lynching me, and knowing full well that I'm not scum, I feel like town has a much better chance if we aren't tunneled into talking about just one subject.

People have been discussing other things than just lynching you FTR. If your not scum, then your flip will correct us, and people will look elsewhere. Your post just looks like an attempt to deflect onto a number of other people to simply save yourself. If you were town, you'd only be trying to push your scumreads, rather than trying to cast a wide net to save yourself.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Riabi, do you have any scumreads outside of the three mentioned in 196?

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: lapsa

You are annoying.

More later.

Do you have any better reasons for this vote other "annoyance"?

Any thoughts on the NK choice? What are thoughts on the Riabi wagon now he's flipped town?

[VictorDeAngelo]

I got my prod and I am alive. Will catch up today. Promise.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'll vote scummy play over bad play any day.

Lapsa is 'bad' but he's not scum.

Riabi making up stuff about secret notes is I'm not sure what play, but iirc I wanted to lynch him for a couple other things before that made me see red.

It's 1:30, going to sleep. Re-reading Vonflare and Jester when I get up. Jester went MIA for a big chunk of day 1 so I want to see some content from him.

What makes you think Lapsa is not scum?

unwillingness to share notes is a trait of power role

which makes for a great scum target

Riabi fooled you there

Riabi actually claimed vanilla kitten before Sky hammered.

My vote will stay unchanged for the rest of the day

VOTE: Sky_Paladin

Why so certain Sky is scum? If you have a result why not share?

Any thoughts on the NK choice? What are thoughts on the Riabi wagon now he's flipped town?

Stav was a weird choice. He wasn't voting at the end of the day, but he seemed to have a scumread on jester.

I think raibi's wagon was valid. He was acting very scummy. Put apparently that's exactly what he was doing: acting.

Let me put this another way; do you think there were scum actively pushing the Riabi wagon? Or do you think everyone on it was town?

Ok Thesp has asked the same thing I did already. +townpoints for Thesp though.

And I do not understand what Lapsa is doing now.

Here's an example of Victor making a case or asking questions or debating with people, whatever you want to call it.
Victor's 107

I call that a post. I don't see what's scummy with it in the slightest.

However, when he votes Riabi, it's without an explanation and preceded only by a question about Riabi's intent re: Jester.

Do you think the question and Riabi's answer might have something to do with it (Big hint: it does).

When I questioned him on the reason for his vote in 153, he responded with 'Mainly, it's for the fact he has kept his vote on The_Jester all this time but is now trying to say he doesn't find him as scummy as Vonflare' which is quite a weak case compared to what he had on Vonflare.

I don't recall having any sort of strong case against Vonflare at the time. And clearly I wouldn't have shifted my vote if I didn't find Riabi scummier at that time.

If you are voting somebody who you think is scummy, and another person also happens to be voting that person, I think it's counter-intuitive to suddenly scum read the person voting along side you.

Not particularly. Even if Riabi was also voting Vonflare (which he wasn't despite the fact he said Vonflare was scummiest) it still doesn't mean a read can't shift. Just townreads can become scumreads, so can scumreads become townreads.

I FoS Victor in 163 and in his 164 where he explains his vote, he counter-FoS's me.

Well you can claim the timing was suspicious, but I stand by my reasons. I don't think I was the only one who found your vote/unvote scummy either.

I feel that he only suddenly 'suspects' me because I am on to his scum game. Vonflare hops on it in 165.

Victor continues to make a big deal of it in 170

and even asks "How do you feel about Vonflare?" Vonflare then hops off quite quickly.

Most of this is just sort recapping, but I take issue with the bolded. You responded and tried to explain away your actions earlier the page, and I told you I didn't believe your reasoning.

And lastly this -
Victor 199 "Just as was thinking Sky Paladin this makes me think he might be town. This does not read like one buddy distancing from another. " what does this mean?

Exactly what I said; Riabi's comments about hyperclaiming did not fit with you two being scum together as it would have been a weird time for him to put pressure on his scumbuddy.

FOS paladin just in case.

What does FOS even stand for?

Why FoS someone if your not sure what it means?

"]
I've been town reading VictorDeAngelo, but I'll re-read and ponder based on Sky_Paladin's case.

Did you do this?

So you're claiming cop? And, if so, are you claiming a guilty on sky?

Any counterclaims?

This post also seems odd, why ask for counterclaims when you haven't even established if he's claiming cop?

I'm just going to skip over Lapsa for now, because my head is hurting and reading his posts is just making it worse.

From the outset, Lapsa has been deliberately obtuse, condescending, and fairly obnoxious. He's been doing it in a way that's not constructive, and invariably makes the game all about him. I don't think this is good for the game, and I think it's highly anti-town.

But I don't agree with his personality being anti-town. It's not alignment indicative, it's just asshole indicative.

Anti-town behaviour is what it sounds but player on ms can often use it to describe town players who are not acting town. As such if someone says someone is antitown it does not automatically mean their scum (thought obvious anti-town behaviour can come from scum )

There's a possibility he's scum, and just as importantly, allowing this nonsense allows scum to hide amongst it. I feel we can get decent reads in conversing with the vast majority of players in this game.

Yes, he has been posting alot. Even though half of the stuff of he posts is irrelevant to the game, he still is bringing something to the table. For your conversing point, just because he's talking so much, it doesn't mean others can't post. Your calling his stuff nonsense, other than the obvious irrelevant bible quotes and stuff like that, is there anything he has done game wise that seems nonsensical? (His attack, reads, etc)

I agree that a fair amount of posting is on task, but it would make my life easier if he posted less bible quotes and other distracting stuff because it's hard to tune out sometimes. If Lapsa is town he should be aiming to make easier for his fellow townies rather than harder.

Lapsa should also stop revoting Sky as it's going to make hard to work just how big his wagon is. Everyone's got the message - Sky is your only vote today.

I have another case for you all, since nobody wants to comment about the Victor case.

I think Thesp is scum.

Really? A minute ago I was scum with Vonflare. Now your going to abandon that case just cause no one jumped on the wagon?

I'm going to need a lie down before I do anymore. Try not to hammer anyone til I get back.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Wow, it has been like five days. Sorry guys too much in the real world to face mafia. I have read up to Sky making a case on Thesp, and then I remember feeling dizzy and wanted to lie down. So you should all blame Sky for making me feel dizzy and wanting lie down.
Right?
No.
Well fine, I'll just read this and try and catch up then.
But there are plenty of things I'd rather be doing with a fine looking Saturday just so you all know.
Lemme get a coffee and I'll sit down with this game.

[VictorDeAngelo]

296 - OK so the Thesp case, still can't really see why Sky shifts focus here if he's town unless he 's worried about Thesp's focus on Lapsa which doesn't make sense at all. And then there's this part:

This comment: "Somewhat connected to #2, if Sky_Paladin turns out to be mafia, I look really bad (and understandably so). After all, I've previously expressed somewhat-townish leanings on Sky_Paladin, and here I'm pretty strongly going after his most vocal attacker. Such is mafia." Is not a valid reason to avoid voting a player because the motivation is "I don't want to be seen as scummy if it goes bad" when it should be "I think player xyz is scum." It is also setting up that the idea that

the reverse is true

, so that if I die, a town!Sky strongly indicates town!Thesp.
Actually, I think Thesp would not look really bad if I flipped mafia just because he is attacking Lapsa, and it would be easy for him to justify his vote after the fact. If I flipped town, though, it would be very easy for him to push the next day's mislynch on Lapsa. If Lapsa's tunneling paid off, I'd flip green, and it would be very easy for Thesp to strengthen his case on Lapsa for a third mislynch in the next day phase.

This just reads all kinda wrong. Thesp admits to townreading Sky and going after his attacker. While it's true that scum could do that for towncred - I don't get how Sky goes to the extreme of claiming Thesp has tied the two of them together the way he claims. Then comes the last paragraph where he talks about how bad Thesp looks if he flips mafia. If Thesp was scum he'd know who is scumbuddy is. I half wonder if this is designed to act as WIFOM after a Sky lynch - which would make sense if Sky is concerned that Lapsa has a guilty on him.

298 - Anytime someone says something like this:

If I was a scum, I'd first want to kill of the experienced players first, so it's easier to misdirect town. I would have expected one of these guys to die -

VictorDeAngelo (SE)
vonflare (SE)
Thesp (IC)

I always hear alarm bells. And then this:

I would have expected Victor to die as the next best choice tbh. The fact that he didn't, and that I made a case on him, is kind of an interesting coincidence ^__~

You were suspecting me yesterday right? So why would you omit your suspicions from the thinking around the nightkill. Do you not think that scum would have believed that you would case at the start of day?
Also despite the question being about why Stav was killed your only comment on why Stav's was nk was to say it was probably random. Did you reread Stav before saying that?

Back to reading Lapsa, and back to being confused by Lapsa. There's plenty of times where he seems to agree or find towniness in Sky's posting - "great analysis",
"afterwards reading your analysis, i can't disagree to it",
"it's good that you don't understand",
"mentioning of power role was a bluff to catch you slip

i think you didn't"

in fact rereading this post, it seems that almost everything that isn't reasking a question is actually positive about Sky. And then he turns around and basically says his mind could be changed but the vote won't. Lapsa is either scum or really bad town AFICT.

Teen Girl Squad catchup looks good and I would be voting Sky along with her at this point.

What the fuck, Sky. We said no to hypoclaiming a now this. I don't see what your trying to achieve here. And you don't need to crumb is hypoclaiming.
I can't fathom whether Sky is really the cop or just trying something audacious. But I find myself rereading the same post five times and getting nowhere which is pissing me off.

321 - Vonflare goes from saying Sky has a strong case on Thesp in the start of post to voting Sky by the end of it. Seems as though he skipped over a ton of thread as well and only really saw the hypoclaim.

@VictorDeAngelo:

why did you switch vote on post 140?

This feels like a question half the game has asked me now. Here's an answer for you.

"Really? A minute ago I was scum with Vonflare. Now your going to abandon that case just cause no one jumped on the wagon?"

One minute lol. There was like half a week where nobody except Lapsa. I had two free days and nothing else to do but read the thread over and over and over and over. Game is about improving the quality of your reads/case. My case on Thesp is better than my case on you iMO so yes, I will abandon what I have if it looks wrong or if something better comes up. I think you have some bad/scummy things and there is some interactions with Vonflare. THere's better case on T hesp/Vonflare though, I read TGS after my Thesp case and nodding my head yes that seems likely. But...fact is interaction reads are useless without a flip. IOt was great of Vonflare to show his hand this early so my recommendation is, lynch on Vonflare, then we can play 'who is his best friend' after. If he flips green then Im gonna be pissed.

OK, my lengthy absenses toDay are pretty bad, I'm the first to put my hands up to that.

If Vonflare were lynched today and flips town what would your Thesp read be afterwards?

I strongly disagree with the case on me by Sky_Paladin. I suppose that's unsurprising, though.

That's one heck of a handwave there Thesp. What's your current read on Sky_Paladin?

Riabi actually claimed vanilla kitten before Sky hammered.

and? see 302

I've read it. I don't get what your getting at though.

Why so certain Sky is scum? If you have a result why not share?

should i teach you to read?

You should, I keep seeing these squiggles on my computer screen and I've almost if they mean something.

Anyway, would you mind answering the question. Because if not I might ask it again and then start throwing bible quotes at you.

345 - Konata should come out of the shadows more. I like this sort of posting, but I would also like to see her take a stance and really produce a case as well.

Lapsa, I'll precede this by saying that this is a big waste of time for both of us because neither of us are trying to prove the other is scummy; we're in effect misdirecting town. I'm only answering because you threatened to hammer and I'm kind of over a barrel here. I would much rather analyse the hell out of players that are scummy.

You don't think the guy who's voted you like a hundred times today is trying to prove your scum?

according to your thought train - i'm semi faking investigative role and gonna drop it after Sky gets lynched

here's some clarity for you - I do

NOT

have a power role, I'm vanilla townie

Super happy with my vote, then.

Thesp, why do you think that a town player claims vanilla townie at this point in the game?

I think I'll stop at 354 but I will try and get back later with another post tonight.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Time escaped I'll try to post again tomorrow if people can wait.

[VictorDeAngelo]

It seems I was mostly caught up. The main question I have right now is why the rush to lynch Vonflare.

Sky - Are you literally saying that anyone you don't have a hypothetical cop result on is possibly scum?

And seriously I can't stand the whole I might be this or I might be that off Sky. If you have a claim that contradicts cop then claim it.

Lapsa - Do

NOT

create confusion with votes. If your attempting to put a fakevote in it's more likely to blow in people's faces. As a general rule of thumb, if a mod thinks it's a vote, it will count as a vote.

In fact with all this confusion I really feel worried about this Vonflare wagon. We have an unCCed Doc, can someone explain the rush to lynch to me?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Anyway, would you mind answering the question. Because if not I might ask it again and then start throwing bible quotes at you.

do it

I don't know any bible quotes. How about you just answer the questions.

Lapsa is either scum or really bad town AFICT.

teach me, master

Without knowing your alignment I can't. But someone will probably give you some pointers postgame.

[VictorDeAngelo]

But he hasn't claimed that, he's thrown that out there with other the cop hypoclaim to create confusion. Which is why I'm worried. If Vonflare is the Doc, then Sky is basically counterclaiming without committing to a dichotomy.

[VictorDeAngelo]

In fact if Sky was BP he would fullclaim here. Scum couldn't kill him tonight, and he would be able to secure a scum lynch. This sort of maybe claim doesn't really make any sense.

[VictorDeAngelo]

here's some clarity for you - I do

NOT

have a power role, I'm vanilla townie

I'm auto-hating you three for this power role bullshit (vonflare, Thesp, Victor)

So you just want to ignore the experienced players and do random anti-town stuff for no reason. I'll warn you know, people will get pissed off with it once you leave the newbie forum.

Lapsa - Do NOT create confusion with votes. If your attempting to put a fakevote in it's more likely to blow in people's faces. As a general rule of thumb, if a mod thinks it's a vote, it will count as a vote.

you are confusing confusion with clarity

Just kill me now.

I don't know any bible quotes. How about you just answer the questions.

I might. after you learn and quote a bible quote

@VictorDeAngelo, is vonflare in your team?
@vonflare, is VictorDeAngelo in your team?[/quote]

Funny, everytime someone ignores one of your questions you've got really pissy with them. It's disappointing your not going to practice what you preach.

it gives less options to fake claim because of setup

that opens possibilities for scum hunt

you are lying by stating it makes no sense

and that's why I'm going to hate you for a long time

Sky's alignment isn't even important on this

Not one statement you've made here can be justified.

[VictorDeAngelo]

So you just want to ignore the experienced players and do random anti-town stuff for no reason. I'll warn you know, people will get pissed off with it once you leave the newbie forum.

please do, lame loser. that only leaves you more vulnerable

i don't give a shit about your experience

all my "random anti-town stuff" has precise reason

You can be all childish about it but that's solid SE advice. People will be annoyed by it. I understand that different people have different styles but you need to grow up a little if you can't take the simplest piece of constructive criticism.

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Vonflare, if your claim is true, then you know there's a straight 50% chance that my hypoclaim of Cop is a real claim.

One reason I hypoclaimed cop

might

be because I am actually a bulletproof vest carrier, and I knew there was therefore no cop to counter claim me, and I was hoping to absorb the night hit.

It's impossible for a doc and a bulletproof vest to exist in this setup.

I am not actually claiming bulletproof vest, in the same way I am not actually claiming cop.

But Vonflare

did

claim doc, so we need to evaluate if the claim is reasonable.

If it's not reasonable, the obvious solution is that Vonflare is scum.

But I'm sure Vonflare has a reasonable explanation.

idea is already explained - it's a simple fork

Yes, I understand that which you would clearly able to see if you reread my posts. The point is that Sky

doesn't

claim BP. He simply suggests he might be to make it look like there's a counterclaim out there. The simple fact is that right now Vonflare is the only claimed PR and if he was lying there would more than likely be a straight counterclaim.

that is the reason i nagged you about reading - you omit a lot of stuff that's already there. and now i'm sure that's on purpose

I've caught up and read the whole game at this point, which again should be clear from my posting.

i even tested that out just now:

@VictorDeAngelo, is vonflare in your team?
@vonflare, is VictorDeAngelo in your team?
Funny, everytime someone ignores one of your questions you've got really pissy with them. It's disappointing your not going to practice what you preach.

That appears to be a quote about the fact you've avoided responding the question I asked. Was my writing it a test. I'm completely lost.

it's good that you don't understand

@Sky_Paladin do an excercise - make an analysis. find and restate reasons on why i wrote 251 and 259 and comment on them. i have expressed them clearly

it might seem silly at first, but the thing i want is to ensure that we are exactly on same page

you do know what i meant with those questions:

that pointless question about teams is there only to disrupt possible scum co-op

i mentioned that

you might be cooperating with vonflare

and yet you completely avoided touching game material hoping that no one will catch up to that

Your seriously going to accuse me of avoiding game material? When you still won't answer some basic questions.

or believing that attacking directly to my obnoxious, bad mouth-taste leaving persona will be more useful

To be honest, I was hoping against hope that there was a side of you that wouldn't leave a bad taste in my mouth.

easiest 'Get out of jail free'

Was this meant to be related to the above? or the below? or the bible?

Also

Sorry guys will post tomorrow morning

In fact if Sky was BP he would fullclaim here. Scum couldn't kill him tonight, and he would be able to secure a scum lynch. This sort of maybe claim doesn't really make any sense.

Also this is exactly right.

I guess if I don't quote this and write something here I'll get accused of not reading, or avoiding touching game material. I assume there's a point to this and or do you just love that quote feature?

And seriously I can't stand the whole I might be this or I might be that off Sky. If you have a claim that contradicts cop then claim it.

But he hasn't claimed that, he's thrown that out there with other the cop hypoclaim to create confusion. Which is why I'm worried.
If Vonflare is the Doc, then Sky is basically counterclaiming without committing to a dichotomy.

point is - you do understand very well what this is all about and yet you call it non-sense

It is nonsense. My understanding of it has no actual impact on that fact.

In fact if Sky was BP he would fullclaim here. Scum couldn't kill him tonight, and he would be able to secure a scum lynch. This sort of maybe claim doesn't really make any sense.

IT IS

more benefical for Sky

IF

he's cop or bp

that opens up possibility for Sky to catch vonflare lying

let's put apart Sky's alignment, let's put apart Sky himself - imagine he is not even in the game

idea would

still remain completely valid

and i do believe that you understand that very well, are unable to counter play properly through pure argumentation and just try to build Sky + Lapsa vagon

I'm having a hard trying to decipher this. It might because it's past 10 here. I don't know what part of what I said was unclear. If Vonflare is town - Sky has created enough confusion to get him lynched without any sort of counterclaim. If Vonflare is scum - then he's already lied about being Doc and Sky wouldn't need create possibilities to catch him at this point. I don't know where imaging Sky not being in the game gets us. The idea wasn't valid in the first place for the reasons I already said. I don't know if your trying to accuse me of chain lynching in the last line or something. Makes as much sense as the rest I guess.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Yes, I understand that which you would clearly able to see if you reread my posts.

@VictorDeAngelo then why are you calling that nonsense?

Because it is nonsense.

The point is that Sky

doesn't

claim BP. He simply suggests he might be to make it look like there's a counterclaim out there.
The simple fact is that right now Vonflare is the only claimed PR and if he was lying there would more than likely be a straight counterclaim.

#312 Sky's hypo claim
#370 vonflare's claim

you cannot counterclaim what has not been claimed yet

You must surely know that isn't what I was referring to.

I've caught up and read the whole game at this point, which again should be clear from my posting.

it's clear that you ignore things that are uncomfortable to you

You seem to be assuming that if I don't respond every last thing you say I am ignoring you. Don't be offended. If I responded to everything everyone said the game would wall to wall wallpost.

That appears to be a quote about the fact you've avoided responding the question I asked. Was my writing it a test. I'm completely lost.

you miss the point. test was to see your willingness to discuss game material

i already asked same exact question to Thesp and Sky and mentioned reason for doing so

and you failed this simple test by ignoring huge and obvious hint about my suspicions about your coop with vonflare

you aren't lost, you are lying

So let me try and get this straight. You asked the question about me and Vonflare as a test to see if I linked you back to your questions earlier? Does anyone ever do that?

You are seriously going to accuse me of avoiding game material? When you still won't answer some basic questions.

i am, Mr Semi-Experienced. wake up

this one is the only question i haven't answered to you yet:

In post 330, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
Why so certain Sky is scum? If you have a result why not share?

i dislike his hammer a lot. but he has earned my trust through discussion

post #351 convinced me

i don't share the result because i got nothing to share. read it all up - i'm a vanilla townie

i did not answer your question for same reason - to see your willingness to understand me. there is none

See that wasn't hard.

your turn

If there's anything unanswered feel free to ask it again, but I think I've covered everything.

easiest 'Get out of jail free'

Was this meant to be related to the above? or the below? or the bible?

this is related to the game. easiest way to solve things is by painting opponent dumb brute force

How so?

I guess if I don't quote this and write something here I'll get accused of not reading, or avoiding touching game material.
I assume there's a point to this and or do you just love that quote feature?

spell it, noob:

i mentioned that you might be cooperating with vonflare and yet you completely avoided touching game material hoping that no one will catch up to that

I try and cooperate when necessary but I can be antagonistic when needed.

It is nonsense. My understanding of it has no actual impact on that fact.

I'm having a hard trying to decipher this. It might because it's past 10 here. I don't know what part of what I said was unclear. If Vonflare is town - Sky has created enough confusion to get him lynched without any sort of counterclaim. If Vonflare is scum - then he's already lied about being Doc and Sky wouldn't need create possibilities to catch him at this point. I don't know where imaging Sky not being in the game gets us. The idea wasn't valid in the first place for the reasons I already said. I don't know if your trying to accuse me of chain lynching in the last line or something. Makes as much sense as the rest I guess.

only if you ignore the fact that it's not about vonflare anymore - all this hypoclaiming thing is about picking out you

So if it's not about Sky and not about Vonflare then I really don't get the relevence of what your saying. You can try rewriting it in a way that makes sense or I'm just adding it to thinks I am ignoring.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I strongly disagree with the case on me by Sky_Paladin. I suppose that's unsurprising, though.

That's one heck of a handwave there Thesp. What's your current read on Sky_Paladin?

Probably town.

Why didn't you address the case against you in any detail?

according to your thought train - i'm semi faking investigative role and gonna drop it after Sky gets lynched

here's some clarity for you - I do

NOT

have a power role, I'm vanilla townie

Super happy with my vote, then.

Thesp, why do you think that a town player claims vanilla townie at this point in the game?

In this case, to see how I react (especially based on my stated issues with him).

That should have been why do you think that a

scum

player claims vanilla townie at this point in the game?

I should proof read my posts more often.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Because it is nonsense.

That tells me that scum believe this is a column B game

@VictorDeAngelo is figuring out game setup nonsense?

No, no, no cut this crap. You know full well that wasn't what I was referring. Stop trying to twist my quotes by changing the context.

You must surely know that isn't what I was referring to.

enlighten me. teach me, master

because i surely don't

until then - it looks to me as if vonflare just made up fake claim reactively

No, people can reading my posts will clearly be able see what I was saying, and whatever I post here will no doubt be placed next to some other random quote from the game to make look scummy.

You seem to be assuming that if I don't respond every last thing you say I am ignoring you. Don't be offended. If I responded to everything everyone said the game would wall to wall wallpost.

your assumption is wrong

Yep, another response designed to clear up nothing.

So let me try and get this straight. You asked the question about me and Vonflare as a test to see if I linked you back to your questions earlier? Does anyone ever do that?

i just did. second time in this game

@VictorDeAngelo isn't that worth mentioning?

No. The question is dumb and I've seen people do it lots. Your simply the first who seems to think it's some sort of clever memory test to see if I bothered jotting down in my notes "Lapsa asks silly question" just so if you ask me the same question I can say "Look he asked me the same thing he asked so and so in post whatever, look how townie I am noticing that".

If there's anything unanswered feel free to ask it again, but I think I've covered everything.

@VictorDeAngelo are you scum?

No

How so?

that opens up possibility to steer town against me. either i will be ignored or lynched

Sorry I don't get this, let pull up all those quotes you cut to see that helps it make sense.

easiest 'Get out of jail free'

Was this meant to be related to the above? or the below? or the bible?

this is related to the game. easiest way to solve things is by painting opponent dumb brute force

How so?

that opens up possibility to steer town against me. either i will be ignored or lynched

Nope, still don't understand.

I try and cooperate when necessary but I can be antagonistic when needed.

so you can lie. be ashamed to brag about that

That's not what I said.

So if it's not about Sky and not about Vonflare then I really don't get the relevence of what your saying. You can try rewriting it in a way that makes sense or I'm just adding it to thinks I am ignoring.

act a fool. that's all you got left[/quote]

Obviously it wasn't important then.

[VictorDeAngelo]

No, no, no cut this crap. You know full well that wasn't what I was referring. Stop trying to twist my quotes by changing the context.

an ambigiuously answered or unanswered question:

@VictorDeAngelo is figuring out game setup nonsense?

No.

help clearing this misunderstanding:

@VictorDeAngelo why are you sure that i know full well what you are referring to? (hint: i do not)

It's based on the assumption your reading my posts and have some modicum of intelligence. Feel free to correct me if either of these assumptions are wrong.

@VictorDeAngelo how it is possible to twist a quote by changing context? (hint: it is not)

Simply, let's take a quote. i.e.

Town players should be lynched

This is nonsense

Edit it down to remove the context.

This is nonsense

Find a different quote to put it next to:

Let's lynch scummy players

This is nonsense

And voila. Fraud worthy of Andrew Wakefield.

No, people can reading my posts will clearly be able see what I was saying, and whatever I post here will no doubt be placed next to some other random quote from the game to make look scummy.

pardon me, but your england really looks like purposefully crafted to look like being written by nigerian scammer

Sigh, another dodge.

@VictorDeAngelo is that a lame try to mock me?

if so - grow up already

Nope and your hardly in a position to accuse anyone of being childish.

You seem to be assuming that if I don't respond every last thing you say I am ignoring you. Don't be offended. If I responded to everything everyone said the game would wall to wall wallpost.

your assumption is wrong

Yep, another response designed to clear up nothing.

if you know better about myself, then you have no reason to assume or clear up anything

Forget it.

@VictorDeAngelo isn't that worth mentioning?

No.

I disagree you on this

Good for you.

also - an unanswered question:

@VictorDeAngelo, is vonflare in your team?

Depends on if he flips town.

Nope, still don't understand.

acting fool

Assume I'm not "acting fool". Why don't you rephrase?

[VictorDeAngelo]

OK, we're all checked in. And we haven't had the final role out themselves which is often a sign that we shouldn't massclaim. Willing to hold off for now.

I'm pretty much willing to lynch Lapsa right now after all his misrepping towards me yesterday but I want to reread Vonflare interactions first....

Spoiler: This ended up longer than I thought

24 - Jester was suspicious of Vonflare early on it but held off voting. "Please answer my question." seems really off when the question is in the same post. Did he worry Vonflare might not answer because their buddies?

25 - Sky_Paladin was the first to put on Vonflare Day 1, quicker than I would expect a player to vote a scumbuddy.

26 - Vonflare responds to both players - votes Sky which is also not likely from one scumbuddy to another.

30 - Thesp ignores the wagon on Vonflare and asks simple rqs questions.

32 - Vonflare seemed worried about wagon.

33 - Jester votes Vonflare - not an unreasonable bus position but he also dismissed the vote on Sky which would also been a reasonable counterwagon.

35 - I find it odd that after Riabi admits to having a lean scum read on Vonflare, Jester appears to want to move him in other directions.

38 - Vonflare shifts to Jester. Unlikely to move onto a scumbuddy here if there was a town alternative.

42 - Thesp approves of the pressure on Vonflare without adding a vote.

50 - Jester pressures Vonflare more and asks for reads.

61 - "Jester and I can't both be scum unless we are hardcore bussing." I find myself thinking the same thing but I also hate it when scum put something like this out there.

69 - Jester accusing Vonflare of putting words in his mouth.

70 - Vonflare fencesat hard on his reads. But between the way he tries to deflect his voters onto Jester is surely proof enough these guys aren't aligned.

73 - Thesp is still holding off going after either Vonflare or Jester.

The tone of the interactions between Thesp and Vonflare at the top of page 4 does kinda read buddy-buddy.

88 - Sky keeps his vote on Vonflare and makes a good point regarding Vonflare's townread on Stav.

99 - Thesp's vote on Konata is away from both wagons. The odd thing is that scum would probably want to move to Jester if they wanted a counterwagon. But his reasons for voting Konata were pretty bad and he does defend Vonflare's 23.

119 - Thesp still happy with his vote on Konata.

123 - Vonflare's response to "just to get past this and back to lynching Konata." is strangely dismissive. Could Vonflare have been trying to persuade his scumbuddy that he needed to be bussing him here or pushing the only viable counterwagon at the time.

135 - Thesp FoS Riabi, leaving his vote on Konata. Vonflare had just cased Riabi but Thesp was waiting.

138 - Thesp shifts his vote here after my questions and Riabi's answer.

143 - Lapsa replaces in.

155 - Not sure why Sky returns to the start of day here, but this post is actually quite defensive of Vonflare while going after me, Riabi and Jester.

158 - Sky's second half of post and nothing going against Vonflare at all but plenty of comments on other players.

165 - Vonflare does barn my question about the vote shift on Sky though.

176 - Ah, now he says he's satisfied with Sky's response.

181 - Sky says his read on Vonflare has improved.

191 - Thesp wants more votes on Riabi.

194 - Sky does call out Vonflare for his "Can we just lynch Raibi?".

198 - Sky defending Vonflare again.

And that's about it for Day 1.

Day 2.

232 - Vonflare literally votes Lapsa out the gate for being annoying. Lapsa subsequently ignores it and tunnels on Sky for the first few posts. Seems disjointed if these two were buddies and had planned the start of day.

269 - Sky mentions Vonflare being scum but he ties the case heavily to me being scum.

270 - FoS in response. No way does Vonflare not know what's he saying despite his claims of not knowing what FoS means.

279 - Vonflare asks Lapsa if he's claiming cop?

280 - Weird response from Lapsa. If these two were scumbuddies I would imagine they'd come into Day 2 with just a little attempt at co-ordination.

301 - TGS first post says she is most suspicious of Vonflare and Thesp.

305 - Not much more on Vonflare from TGS - most of it is just noting the times Sky defends Vonflare in the second half of Day 2. TGS votes Sky.

307 - TGS question Vonflare.

308 - Sky thinks the scumteam is Thesp/Vonflare at this point. Still voting for Thesp over Vonflare though.

321 - Vonflare links Sky's case to Thesp and describes it as strong yet doesn't vote Thesp - instead he votes Sky. This would be putting Sky at L-1 at this point.

324 - Sky responds by voting Vonflare. The question is, could a Sky/Vonflare scumteam mutually bus here. It's a possibility if Sky was looking like the Day 2 lynch (particularly after it had been pointed out how Sky defended Vonflare).

327 - This does suggest Sky thinks he's down so it could be a last gasp attempt to distance. The only thing is, it doesn't really feel like it. I can't attribute that to anything more than the style right now. Hmmm.

337 - TGS doesn't like Vonflare's vote.

348 - Lapsa's observation here is also unlikely to be scum on scum.

352 - Thesp ties me to Vonflare here. He sticks with Lapsa but leaves the door open for a Vonflare lynch.

359 - TGs votes Vonflare. Second vote on his wagon.

367 - Thesp shifts onto Vonflare, putting him at L-1. Vonflare wasn't in a huge amount of danger, but without anyone jumping on the Lapsa wagon was there a good alternative.

371 - Quick unvote after the Doc claim. "Not sure I believe the claim, but I don't think he's the lynch today."

373 - This whole post feels kinda coachy from Sky.

377 - This question is pretty good though.

380 - Actually we should get a Sky claim today if nothing else because there's only a couple of reasons I can think of with regards to all the hypoclaiming stuff.

383 - Thesp advoactes holding off a Vonflare lynch for the day but says he would vote him if it were lylo.

407 - Then Sky unvotes.

412 - This vote probably means Lapsa is town. Vonflare is getting desperate at this point since it seems his claim won't save him.

419 - Thesp is now ready to lynch Vonflare as well.

424 - Vonflare names Sky and Lapsa as scumreads. But at this point it would have been clear the jig is up.

468 - Lol, Sky directing night actions. Since Vonflare flipped scum it's particularly telling that he asks the cop and tracker to target players who are not him.

484 - A last ditch attempt to avoid a Vonflare lynch?

OK,

TGS is almost certainly town. The interactions with Vonflare make little to no sense otherwise.
Lapsa is the next most likely town based on his interactions with Vonflare. I still feel uncomfortable clearing him based on his misrepping me at the end of yesterday though. That said in terms of finding Von's buddy he is little to suggest these two were working together.
That leaves two. I'm torn on Thesp and Sky. Thesp would be the more reasonable choice for buddy. Sky is slightly more erratic, one post he seems protective, then in the next there's something that just says actually maybe their not. Part of me wants a Sky claim cause that might clear something up, but I need to take some time to think about this.

I'll potentially be quite busy over the weekend/Monday so I might not be around til Tuesday.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Lapsa just townslipped hard

PEdit: He did it twice!

[VictorDeAngelo]

Responding to my prod (my bad for not vlaing properly).

I'll read up later.

[VictorDeAngelo]

vote me, hard slipper

Lapsa, do you know what I meant when I said townslip?

From the outset, Lapsa has been deliberately obtuse, condescending, and fairly obnoxious. He's been doing it in a way that's not constructive, and invariably makes the game all about him. I don't think this is good for the game, and I think it's highly anti-town.

We don't lynch village idiots because they are village idiots. If we complain to the mod they can intervene. You are the IC. You know this. Suggesting that we, in game, self-moderate a player when we had a night kill analysis and a wagon analysis to do

as the first order of actions

is extremely anti-town.

This may be a difference in meta but in general good mods intervene as little as possible. I would

not

expect a mod to intervene just because a player is not neccessary playing protown, only if something they do goes explictly against rules. On ms it's a town's job to deal with idiots. I have been in plenty of games with town players acting antitown and pushed their lynches particularly early in the game.

I realised after half an hour of trying to fathom all the PR stuff that really this game is actually really simply for me. I think it's either Sky or Thesp. I'm not sure which but I can easily see either as the last scum.

@TGS - There probably wasn't a vote from me Day 2. I was absent with real life stuff. But let's be frank, when was the last time you saw an unCCed Doc get lynched with no counterclaim on the table? I didn't understand nor like Sky's attempt to create confusion over whether or not he was counterclaiming Vonflare - in fact I still don't. Vanilla townies don't CC docs, subtly or otherwise. The only thing that has held me back from placing the vote is the fact that this is a newbie game, and in newbie games you need to sometimes be patient with different playstyles.

I will try to stick around tonight to talk if people are around.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Am I wrong in saying that even if this wasn't a newbie game, hypoclaiming is really against this site's meta? I can't say I've seen a lot of people do it here.

I don't know. I happened to read a couple of games that were being hosted when I joined up, and one of them was going through a hypoclaim, so I thought "Oh, I wonder if we should do that too?".

This is the first game I've encountered hypoclaiming. I think it goes without saying that I'm not a fan.

This may be a difference in meta but in general good mods intervene as little as possible.

I was under the impression that if the players complained to the moderator, a troublesome player could be replaced. Not that I want to do so at this point; I saw Vonflare/Thesp's push early day 2 as opportunistic. It's too convenient. It would have been just as easy to say "Oh those Bible quotes are clearly some kind of code, he must be communicating with his scum buddy since they can't chat during the day time" etc etc. If you were serious about force replacing a trouble player, I'm sure it's possible to do so without lynching them because the player base doesn't like them/playstyle.

Not really, Mala would have needed a good reason to remove any player. If the bible quotes were a problem then the likeliest thing is that Lapsa would politely but firmly PMed to ask him to stop. Technically speaking I don't believe prearranged codes are even forbidden between scum as long as it doesn't violate encrypted text (e.g. scum could have a codeword to use when they want their team to bus them).
Difficult players are a part of game. Lapsa is far from the first player I've encountered whose frustrating to play with, but I can't recall a time on this site when a player was forced removed or modkilled for simply being difficult.
I also somewhat disagree that it is scum's best interest to remove antitown players. In fact if Lapsa was town faking a guilty on another town, would a Thesp/Vonflare scumteam have any motivation to want to kill him off and expose the lie?

I realised after half an hour of trying to fathom all the PR stuff that really this game is actually really simply for me. I think it's either Sky or Thesp. I'm not sure which but I can easily see either as the last scum.

The PR stuff is relevant because if we decide to claim today (instead of in LYLO) we can get at least one and probably two extra bonus confirmed towns. The night 1 result is not conclusive because with two scum, the town PR is not guaranteed to get a satisfactory result even if they targeted scum. EG a tracker who tracked the goon who didn't make a hit = no result. Jailer who jailed roleblocker = no noticeable effect.

So if hypothetically Lapsa is the tracker, and he checked you (Victor) last night, then scum must be between Thesp/Sky/ and, no matter how implausible it seems, TGS. OTOH if the tracker checked me (which is also plausible) I'd be confirmed town instead.

That is why we need to discuss if we want to go that way. I presume the tracker/jailer has left crumbs so that if we guess wrong today, and the town pr is killed at night, we can work it out in LYLO.

Agreed but the tracker/jailer would know this, and would have decided to claim by now if there was a relevent result. That should be a clear indication that they do not have relevent information and we should drop this sort of discussion.

I didn't understand nor like Sky's attempt to create confusion over whether or not he was counterclaiming Vonflare - in fact I still don't. Vanilla townies don't CC docs, subtly or otherwise.

You are referring to the bulletproof hypo, yes?
The reason I did this was so I could post the game cell, which until then had not been mentioned at all. "Let me remind you of the game state."
It was a subtle message to the real roled towns that if they can counterclaim Vonflare, then they could do so without having to publicly counterclaim it.
At least one (Konata) got the message and voted, and was killed because he knew I was town, yes?
I did not counterclaim Vonflare. Konata, and maybe one of Thesp or TGS did, too.
Or maybe I'm the jailer and I did CC Vonflare but wanted to make it seem like I wasn't really sure to throw scum off the scent.

But Konata didn't seem to counterclaim at all - no one did. It's arguable that Konata should have done so.

But let's be frank, when was the last time you saw an unCCed Doc get lynched with no counterclaim on the table?

As discussed just before. Vonflare was CC'd. You just didn't see it.

No I didn't. Show me where.

Follow your instincts and ISO the players. Look for the scum motivated posts. Nothing has changed this game from what you know before. Check for consistency and ask questions. If you don't like something, ask why you don't like it. You don't like my hypoclaim stuff. Isn't the reason because you don't understand it? Was it a bad thing for town or a good thing for town? Who are the players who are good for town? Why? Who are the players who are bad for town? Why?

I understand the theory of hypoclaiming but I still don't see any benefit which is why I am unsure why you continually persevered even after people said not to in Day 1. The jury is still out on whether it will end up being good or bad. I don't think it has had any real benefits AFAICT. All I've seen so far is a lot of speculation relating to night actions, none of which is really productive. The question is whether this is coming from a overzealous townie looking to try to solve the game with a novel approach or scum looking to create extra WIFOM and information to make the game harder to solve.

Thesp's 566 is actually making a lot of sense. If we're moving towards the end of the day I know where I want my vote now.

VOTE: Sky_Palidin

PEdit: Lol. Well maybe it won't matter.

TGS are you sold on hammering Thesp?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Hmm. Well, I'm still hesitant but

I'm willing to hammer Thesp at this point so here's my intent-to-hammer post i guess.

Actually since you used the word hesitant I probably could answer my own question.

I'll try to read things better in the future.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I am a Vanilla Townie.

Since there is an intent to hammer, every player should claim whether or not they have any role-related information that is favorable for me.

(I imagine this will be short, given that it's unlikely the three players voting or willing to vote for me have such information.)

I do not have a result that clears you.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'm the tracker, I can bigpost later but TGS is the last scum. Sky you need to look back over my reactions to a claim yesterday and how I reacted to Vonflare Day 2. I'll try to post sometime later this morning.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Victor, who did you track on the previous nights and why?

Night 1 - Sky_Paladin. I thought you were scum Day 1 over the way you voted then unvoted. (It's also how I knew your cop hypoclaim was bullshit on Day 2)
Night 2 - Konata (now do you see what I was getting at in 575). With Vonflare being scum I had to reasses my reads and Konata's vote looked most like a bus vote. The big paragraph where he discussed theory and then said "Unless my thought process for this is flawed somehow, Vonflare is town? But for some reason to me it just seems crazy to clear him as town with this one post right? Please comment guys." looked like an attempt to clear his body. That coupled with the timing of his vote made me want to track him. You would have been my second choice but once Vonflare flipped red I thought you must have been the bullet proof.
Night 3 - Sky_Paladin. I needed one good result and I thought TGS would be the NK given how universally townread she was and you would either be scum, or kept around as the last mislynch by Lapsa.

Why did you vote for me when I said I knew who the tracker was and was town-clearing you?

You said the tracker probably tracked me last night. I knew that wasn't true but didn't want to say as much because it would have been as good as a claim if I told you that it was impossible.

Anyway my reasons were what I said. I had TGS down as town. You have done plenty of things I have found scummy and at the end of the day I was more sure of you being scum than Thesp. Townclearing a player doesn't make someone town (especially when their reasoning is wrong).

I really wish I could put together a good case against TGS right now, but honestly she was my strongest townread until a couple hours ago so I have nothing except the knowledge that she must be scum.

VOTE: TGS

Sky, you need to look over the relevent ISOs (Jester/TGS/me and Vonflare) and ask questions. Your right in saying we should take our time.

Looking over TGS post you should note that 560 came

after

Lapsa townslipped and both me and Thesp had commented, and you had mentioned that you thought Lapsa was probably confirmed town in 532. The obvtown is just scum trying townreading a player after the other townies have come to the conclusion.

You should also look over my play day 2 relating to the claims. It doesn't clear me but it should make more sense why I didn't want a claimed doc dead now you know my role. I can answer questions if you have them.

[VictorDeAngelo]

At the moment I'm leaning more likely TGS is town because she claimed first. It would have been harder for scum to claim first because they don't know for sure which one of the remaining town is roled. However I did claim vanilla so this point is considerably weaker than if I had fake claimed tracker (which I considered to do and was in the middle of a post when TGS hammered) so.

You claimed vt yesterday, Lapsa flipped vt. It's simple PoE to work out who the tracker was.

I think that Victor's checking of Konata night 2 is really bad so I want to hear more about that. A lot more to come I think.

There's not much to tell. I tracked Konata. Konata did not target anyone. Think about it though, if I (or anyone else for that matter) had tracked a different target why not claim yesterday. It would have taken a target out of consideration for the day.

Do me a favour Sky, look over Konata's interactions without the knowledge Konata is town. She waited until the wagon had formed on Vonflare before voting him day 1. Again day 2 she didn't step in until it looked like a wagon was forming that she had to part of. The main post though was 366, it looked coachy, defensive yet noncommital - which led to think I had a buddy. I was wrong but realistically which target would have been better. I had to rassess my reads with little time and a ton of other work to manage outside the game and Konata's ISO was the one that stood out most as being aligned with Vonflare.

Most of his D2 posting implies that he believes vonflare's claim and find Sky_Paladin scummier, but even with the wagon on Sky that formed D2, he never voted for him.

And honestly, I can't help but read all of his Lapsa interactions (which are most of Victor's interactions) as a deliberate distraction from vonflare's impending lynch.

Like, I dunno if I'd call him my #1 scum candidate, but I don't get the lack of suspicion.

Like I said, I tracked Lapsa to see who was pushing a mislynch on him if he was town. That's why Victor's interactions with him D2 pinged my scumdar, because I knew for sure that Lapsa was town.

@Sky

- you want to some proof then ask yourself this? Why would a tracker be choosing to track his townreads over their scumreads. If TGS was tracker then wouldn't she have tracked one of her scumreads.

Like come onnn look at those tracks, he deliberately tracked someone that was NKed on Night 2 so he wouldn't have to be held responsible for his Day 3 actions.

That's because I didn't know Konata would be NKed. That one pretty much came as a shock to everyone.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Sky

- you want to some proof then ask yourself this? Why would a tracker be choosing to track his townreads over their scumreads. If TGS was tracker then wouldn't she have tracked one of her scumreads.

Uhh no. I never said I was town reading Lapsa on Day 2. The most favorable thing I said about him was this:

-Honestly, I don't mind Lapsa's play. I don't necessarily agree with him on everything he's said so far, and it's obnoxious at points, but I appreciate that his posts are concise and clear in a game that's had a lot of quote pyramids and walls so far. And yeah, weird play=/=scummy.

My read on him was null, I wasn't convinced one way or the other.

You said your main reason was that you thought that Lapsa would be a viable mislynch with the always possible side dish of maybe catching scum in the act. That does imply a townread does it not?

During Day 2 I asked him questions and made notes about his behavior to help me decide, which I totally stopped doing Day 3, after I knew he was innocent.

-Lapsa says he has a townread on everyone else on the Riabi wagon, which is something to keep in mind.

Yeah not a fan of vonflare's vote, either, but I dunno about putting someone at L-1 just yet. Interesting that Lapsa unvoted for that reason as well, though, since he seemed very sure of his vote.

@Lapsa, is there anything specific Sky_Paladin said that makes you trust him?

As far as not claiming earlier, I figured it was worth the risk to catch confirmed scum. If I got NKed, I figured it would be easy enough to tell from my posts that Lapsa was cleared. Maybe that was a risky strategy, but it paid off, because I'm not sure I would have suspected Victor if I hadn't got an innocent on Sky.

Actually you didn't really note or question much early on but the first question you asked was to Lapsa coincidentally enough. Essentially you held back, kept your options open and when it became clear that no one else was interested in a Lapsa lynch you started dropping the odd comment about how he was town.

What I'm trying to say re:Victor "tracking" Konata:

I've put Victor in a corner and it's easiest for him to pretend he tracked Konata because she was NKed. This way he doesn't need to be responsible for their D3 interactions because she was, you know, dead.

You didn't put me in any such corner. If I was scum I would have know the setup on the start of Day 3, since Konata flipped BP and I would have known whether there was a roleblocker on my team or not.

In fact, nothing about Victor's play suggests he was actually suspicious of Konata at all, so it doesn't make sense that he'd track her. Ctrl+F-ing Konata's name in Victor's ISO doesn't give very many results, but in a few of them he looks to actually be defending her:

I like Konata's 90

1

. Consequently I am a little confused by Thesp's vote in 99.

Why/Explain? Both points.

I can't remember specifically what I liked now. But given how I liked the post Thesp thought was scummy it should be obvious why I didn't like his shift in vote.

345 - Konata should come out of the shadows more. I like this sort of posting, but I would also like to see her take a stance and really produce a case as well.

So Victor, if you were so suspicious of Konata, why didn't you ever say so? Or better yet, vote for her?

Nice try but you should think before you attack. I didn't start looking for interactions between Vonflare and others until

after

Vonflare flipped scum. I wasn't concerned with hunting out Vonflare's buddy while he was a claimed PR and likely. Instead I was more worried about who was trying to get the Doc mislynched. Konata didn't raise alarm bells until I reread over the night.

[VictorDeAngelo]

You said your main reason was that you thought that Lapsa would be a viable mislynch with the always possible side dish of maybe catching scum in the act. That does imply a townread does it not?

I also said his play was confusing and I wanted to be certain of his alignment. So yeah, null.

So your claiming not to have had a scumread going into night 2?

You didn't put me in any such corner. If I was scum I would have know the setup on the start of Day 3, since Konata flipped BP and I would have known whether there was a roleblocker on my team or not.

Oh yeah, I didn't realize that. So I guess it was just a matter of deciding which one of me, Lapsa or Sky was the Tracker, then. Maybe I should've waited for you to fakeclaim and push a lynch on Sky

Except there was no decision. You saw Lapsa flip vt. You knew Sky had claimed vt. It was trivial to deduce I was the tracker at point.

Nice try but you should think before you attack. I didn't start looking for interactions between Vonflare and others until

after

Vonflare flipped scum. I wasn't concerned with hunting out Vonflare's buddy while he was a claimed PR and likely. Instead I was more worried about who was trying to get the Doc mislynched. Konata didn't raise alarm bells until I reread over the night.

Konata was voting for vonflare for all of D1 (she put him at L-1 on page 4 and never moved her vote) and D2 (she was the second vote on his wagon and stayed there). During D2 she pushed Sky to hammer vonflare and pushed me to keep my vote on him. I'm still not seeing how tracking her is a thing you would do if you weren't lying (which you are)[/quote]

So did I, so did your predecessor. Scumbuddies vote each other. But Konata didn't push Vonflare out the gate on either days but waited for when it looked like Vonflare was taking pressure. That tends to be how buddies vote for each other. I'm obviously not going to say anything to make you give up but I hope Sky at least read the post I thought I saw as defending Vonflare.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I think Victors empty vote in 140 is very bad. It's also why I saw Thesp as scum. It stands out a little bit because Vonflare then picks it up and asks why Victor switched his vote. Then we have the small exchange of 164/165 where those two gave me some trouble for putting Riabi at L-1 and then unvoting. Meanwhile, Jester is still voting Vonflare (and had been doing so while Vonflare was at L-1 for quite some time).

Sky you need to go and read some games. That vote is in no way scummy. I did the same thing when I caught Mac in Plants vrs Zombies mafia (go look it up in the theme park section). Even you have to see that now Thesp has flipped town. I can't really explain it any better than I have already.

As for giving you trouble all I can do is apologise. What you did what was scummy. I called you out on it. What else was I supposed to do?

In 170, Victor inexplicably asks for my feelings about Vonflare.

It's called scumhunting. I don't know what more I can say.

End of day 1.
In 236, Vonflare says that Stav was 'a weird choice' which I will later pick apart as a suspicious statement. He implies Jester is scum because of it, which doesn't really make sense if they are scum buddies, because there would be a credible attempt to pin the night kill choice on Jester.

Let's consider the possibility that Jester disappears night 1. Vonflare would have lost all faith in his partner at this point and be looking to bus. If both scum players were inexperienced (and judging from their play I would say that neither Jester nor Vonflare knew what they doing) then there certainly a tendency to bus too early and overdistance. I don't if that exactly what happened but it certainly plausible.

I feel strongly that TGS's 305 would not have ended with a vote on me if she was scum. I picked out Victor, Thesp and Vonflare - if she was bussing, then this is the time to ride that bus.

That makes no sense. Look at the pressure on Vonflare at that point in the game. It was nonexistant. Good scum don't bus their buddies for kicks. Jester might have done that but that's probably because he didn't know what he was doing. TGS is clearly an accomplished player. Good enough to know when to go after a buddy and when to find an easy target.

However, TGS pulls out a pretty solid nugget in 342 which covers what Victor already suggested but in no uncertain terms. TGS eventually votes for Vonflare in 359 for this point, whereas Victor never gets around to it. TGS revotes Vonflare when she could also have easily have voted me; tracker could exist with doc but not cop. She may have believed the BPV though, especially with her 'it looks like a counterclaim'. In any case, scum!TGS certainly did not have to tip the scales over to Vonflare at this point. There was no blatant attempt to ride the wagon for town credit. I don't think it was a bus and she wasn't forced to vote for Vonflare; there was no hard counterclaim on the table.

Again I can only speculate that TGS thought Vonflare was going down at this stage. I can't explain it better than that.

Conversely, Victor's 436 doesn't really come from a town sitting on a counter claim. 'I can't fathom whether Sky is really the cop or just trying something audacious' 'The main question I have right now is why the rush to lynch Vonflare' 'And seriously I can't stand the whole I might be this or I might be that off Sky. If you have a claim that contradicts cop then claim it'

Check the table again Sky, tracker

doesn't

counterclaim Doc. The fact that doc exists in the same setup as tracker is why I didn't want to lynch a unCCed Doc. As for you - I have spent most this game scumreading you because of all this claim stuff.

Vic then spends the rest of the phase arguing with Lapsa and doesn't address Vonflare/Sky at all. Since this is the main issue on the table, his refusal to engage the main issue (and even to vote either way) is damning. At the very least, tracker could vote Sky knowing that my claim is fake. Scum, at this stage in the game, couldn't do it.

So now we roll around to day 3, where Victor has allegedly checked me night 1, and Konata night 2 (who died), and TGS has got a town clear on Lapsa.

TGS soft-votes for mass claim, Vic soft votes for no mass claim.
TGS and Victor mutually town clear each other and ask for a claim from me, boo.
TGS as the only player to spend any effort outside of Thesp vs Sky in 549 is probably the clear town pick at this point.

I literally read the whole game in 515 looking for interactions while TGS was still sitting back waiting to see which way the wind blew.

Roll around to day 4.
I like TGS's claim because she:
1 - Said who she checked on previous nights and

backed it up with some posts that reflected her stance

and
2 - Claimed first.
I claimed vanilla, but there was no way to know for sure my claim was legit, after the crap I pulled day 2.

Victor, on the other hand
1 - Didn't say who he checked previously, and critically, didn't say who he checked night 3, only 'TGS is scum'.
2 - When he eventually gave his actions, he picked me twice and Konata once. Those are

terrible

choices. Picking me on night 1 is legit. Picking Konata night 2 is terrible, not only because he died, but because there was no real reason to suspect Konata at this stage. Picking me night 3 again was awful, getting a town clear running into LYLO was more critical. EG
With Lapsa, Sky, TGS and Victor, with TGS assumed town, it's likely scum would want to hit TGS as 'obv town'. (The fact that she is still alive is the main reason I'd consider her as scum tbh). From Vic's perspective, scum had to be Lapsa or Sky. But he's already checked Sky and got 50% chance of town. So he should have checked Lapsa.

I'm on UK time. I literally checked the thread while waiting for my morning coffee and saw that TGS has posted during the night and then had to get on with my morning stuff. I didn't have time for a detailed post but you seemed to be convinced by the fact that TGS got in first.
The track on you was a good choice because you were scummy. I can't change what has already happened. You just have accept that you play has not been particularly townie this game.
Night 2 - I had no way of knowing Konata would die. And I have said already why I suspected Konata. I had the lenght of a night to look over the threads and reassess after the Vonflare died. I have shown why I thought Konata made the most sense for his buddy. I don't have anything more to offer.
Also go back and read why I tracked you. If I had tracked Lapsa and he died then would my result matter here. No. In fact I would almost certainly mislynched you and this game would be lost. If your gonna give me shit for the correct tracking choice (even TGS is claiming to have made the same choice here) then again there's probably nothing more I can say to convince you.

Ultimately I think TGS has had a better town game than Victor at this stage.

I don't really know what to say at this point. TGS had me fooled too. Just please to take the time to look at what I am saying and try not to base this decision based on the fact that I obviously play differently to you and that I have not been townreading for most of this game.

Night kill analysis - Konata was certainly hit because of likely to be holding a power role. When Thesp flipped town, I figured it was one of Vic or TGS and expected to get nightkilled. I said that Vic was my scum read after Thesp, so scum!Vic probably should have hit me, except Lapsa was plausibly the tracker and would have been very difficult to deal with in LYLO.
TGS had to consider that Lapsa would never vote me but Victor already had. And in a LYLO with scum!TGS, Lapsa and Victor, Lapsa would probably vote Vic as well. So Lapsa had to die in either scenario.

It made sense for TGS to track me and get no result. She also risked being wrong if she was scum and auto-losing (If I was the tracker, Vic and I would countervote).
Finally, she was town read by just about everybody in the game, and there's no clear indication of her bussing for town cred - she hopped off the wagon and plausibly could have voted to save Vonflare at a couple of spots.

You seem to be confbiasing here. You can see why scum!Vic would kill you where as TGS doesn't need to. Whereas you find me tracking you scummy whereas you say it makes sense for TGS to do it. I can't really do anything if your thinking contradicts itself.

To be honest I think you've made your mind up already and I don't have much to add. If you want to win this game then at least take the time I follow up on what I asked you too. If not you should just vote me and end this. I can answer anymore questions you have.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Vic, you thought I was scummy because of the way day 2 unfolded, and then you tracked Konata, apparently because you thought he was somehow more scummy.

However, this doesn't reflect your day 3 play where you picked me as more scummy than Thesp when the wagon on Vonflare had TGS/Konata/Thesp/Sky. You and Lapsa were the only ones who didn't vote. It would have made sense for you to track Lapsa (because he is crazy), or myself (because you were scumreading me and allegedly had a counterclaim on me), or even TGS because of the possibility of bussing from day 1 to day 2.

I guess I don't understand how you go from scum reading me day 2, then scum reading me day 3 enough to vote me when I'd claimed vanilla town, yet not track me night 2. If you're the tracker, you really dropped the ball here because you left no crumbs and your posts aren't conclusive. You say often that "I need to go back and read xyz" but this is appeal to emotion. I've read the game many times and the conclusion I have is that your actions as alleged tracker don't make sense. YOU need to explain to me how they do.

Up until the end of the day 2 I thought it was more likely that Vonflare was the Doctor and you were scum trying to push a mislynch. But when Vonflare flipped scum I had to go and reread the Day. Going into the night I looked over the play and decided you were the bullet proof townie after all and you were trying to draw the night kill and then went over the other players. Out of my other options Konata was the one I perceived as likeliest to be working with Von. Don't blame me for getting confused over all the hypoclaim stuff. Konata may look like a bad or convenient choice in hindsight, but I didn't have that the time I was rushing to pick a target. With you claiming BP I didn't really question whether anyone else was the BP until the next Day when I discovered you were lying.

When it came to Day 3 I knew you weren't the BP or the tracker and I was back at square one. What else was I meant to turn to but behaviour analysis? I cleared Lapsa due to his interactions and slips. I wrongly TGS because she came across townie (to TGS credit she townier than the other players in the game). That left you and Thesp. I went over the full thought process yesterday. Thesp responses to you made me think he was more likely town. Your actions really don't make sense from a town standpoint so I voted you.

Oh and "go back and read" is not an appeal to emotion. I'm telling to look at the actual posts in question to help you decide. I am trying to explain my thought process to you and show you what I saw. Your seeing things as scummy when their not. I can't really offer more insight into my thought process then explaining what I saw and trying to explain what I did.

[VictorDeAngelo]

In 330, Victor's first real post after my hypoclaim, Victor doesn't crumb that he has any issues with my claim at this stage. If I missed it, please highlight it.

You hypoclaimed in 312 and the post in question dealt with 296.

Conversely, TGS in 341 actually asks about they hypoclaim without challenging it, as well as arguing against me. She also pointed out (slightly earlier) that she was unhappy with Vonflare's vote against me. In 355, TGS continues to ask me the purpose of hypoclaiming, "Sky_Paladin, what does hypoclaiming do to prevent people lynching you?". She continues to show suspicion in 359 which appears justified, and then votes Vonflare.

Sky take off the tunnel vision and think about your saying. You have all the pieces but seem to refuse to put in place.

1. The hypoclaim wasn't a full claim. TGS is fishing for more information.
2. AFICT 337 is basically coaching. Remember TGS and Vonflare haven't had any time at night to talk so TGS would have to use the thread to send any messages. I think TGS was trying to tell her scumbuddy to get off the cop wagon.

Then I hypo bullet proof vest and TGS in 391 states I'm counter claiming and one of Sky/Vonflare is scum. Which is correct and plausible from the position of tracker, who knows a BPV or a doc is in the game, but not both. She then votes Vonflare because he seems scummier. Scum TGS could easily have voted for me because I keep changing my story or many other reasons, to have saved her buddy. At this point I have to say TGS story is consistent and plausible. Victor has been absent and he appears near the end of day 2.

A BP claim counters doc. Scum know that as well. The setup is open. And I was absent. It's hard for me to gauge how obvious it would have been that Vonflare was going down but I'm guessing TGS has enough experience to have sensed it. I can't see any other explanation.

In 436, Victor only addresses the hypoclaim here:

What the fuck, Sky. We said no to hypoclaiming a now this. I don't see what your trying to achieve here. And you don't need to crumb is hypoclaiming.
I can't fathom whether Sky is really the cop or just trying something audacious. But I find myself rereading the same post five times and getting nowhere which is pissing me off.

That doesn't really indicate either way if Victor believes it or not, and the second line really suggests strongly to me, Vic has no idea if the claim is legit, and the tracker would know it's not. I also hypo'd that I targeted Lapsa on night 1 with it, so if Vic was really the tracker, he should have come out with "I know Sky is lying" at this point or some kind of indication that he knew something was up.

And therein lies the problem with hypoclaiming the way you did. I call you out for not targetting Lapsa and I not only expose myself as the tracker but you could just claim BP as scum and push a Vonflare mislynch (which would guarentee my death the next night). Alternatively you could have claimed vt and said that all the hypoclaiming was just you trying to create extra confusion.

There's a small back-and-forth between Vic and TGS in 441, key points;
Vic, "And seriously I can't stand the whole I might be this or I might be that off Sky. If you have a claim that contradicts cop then claim it. "
TGS, "Well Sky_Paladin also mentioned maybe being BP, which is weird and confusing but also possibly a counterclaim since BP and Doc can't be in the same setup together."
Vic, "But he hasn't claimed that, he's thrown that out there with other the cop hypoclaim to create confusion. Which is why I'm worried. If Vonflare is the Doc, then Sky is basically counterclaiming without committing to a dichotomy. In fact if Sky was BP he would fullclaim here. Scum couldn't kill him tonight, and he would be able to secure a scum lynch. This sort of maybe claim doesn't really make any sense."
TGS, "Yeah, and they're both pretty low-risk claims to make as scum. If Sky_Paladin's claim was made as a scum move to deliberately cause confusion, it would make me suspicious of Lapsa, as well."

Which is because I still believed there a good chance Vonflare was the doc and you were trying to get him mislynched. Scum would not want to fullclaim bp here because it would lead to their lynch tomorrow when Von flipped town. The most logical move was that a BP would simply full claim (Konata probably should have), and that you would have done if actually BP. With that last quote, I can see TGS trying to stir suspicion here without pushing in case you are a PR (TGS wouldn't know one way or another).

If I consider this from the perspective of one is scum and the other is tracker...it's clear that Vic's main concern is that I am soft counterclaiming Lapsa at this stage. The 'create confusion' point and why worry? Vic made a big deal on day 3 about Vonflare being an uncounterclaimed doc however at no point did he really indicate that he knew my hypo was fake.

Yes because it was intentionally unclear in your part. I could counter a genuine cop claim easily. However I had a player claiming two roles - one of which was plausible - without committing to anything. There was little to nothing I could do.

Lastly, Victor went afk for a big chunk of time in the middle of day 2. In 314, Victor says he 'got his prod'. However, I didn't see any mention by the moderator of Vic being prodded, meanwhile we got a play-by-play of the replacement of The Jester.

Victor, did you lie about being prodded?

Yes I was fucking ill. If you don't believe I was then ask the moderator.

Actually yeah at this point I would say if Victor was really a tracker who knew I didn't target Lapsa night 1, he should have believed Vonflare's doc claim and spilled the beans or at least voted me for it.

So I think Victor's story is fake. This is my intent to hammer. I'll be back in a few hours to see what else Victor has to say.

And I did believe Vonflare's claim. I have said as much. I'm pretty sure I said as much at the time. You even noted I was the one person pushing away from the wagon. Wouldn't I have just bussed at that point if I was really Vonflare's scumbuddy?

And I can't counter a hypoclaim because it's not a real claim, particulary when you could turn around and say "oh sorry, I'm actually the bp after all". You need to look critically at what the tracker would have done in that situation. I can't explain my play better than this is what I did and this is why.

[VictorDeAngelo]

VictorDeAngelo was sacked for the loss of 5!

He was a

Mafia Cat.

He had his team punt the ball 10 times in one game!

The victory of the Kittens has won!

Sky_Paladin,

Vanilla Kitten

has threw a victory touchdown to Teen Girl Squad,

Kitten Tracker

for the win!

But I thought punting was good strategy.

Von buddy I did what I could. Sorry for not being around Day 2 for large portions (real life and all that). I still think the town was wrong in lynching you.

Congrats to the town in this game for winning. I can't say it wasn't well deserved. Even if I had won it would have been a little unfair after the Konata kill fell in my favour. Konata. you played well and I think you were incredible unlucky with how that turned out. TGS I couldn't have wished for worse person to have to get lynched in lylo. There was literally next to nothing in your ISO I could exploit and basically were the most obvtown in the game. I think you played extremely well. Riabi should probably get some credit for having the scumteam sussed by the end of Day 1 and he should take positives from that. As should Strav for being the night 1 kill as vt.

Finally a huge thank you to Mala and FFey for modding.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Aw jeez thanks Victor :3 Honestly my confidence was pretty shaken up when you started arguing with me, I'd been wondering a lot myself whether tracking Lapsa was the right move (for reals Lapsa, I wasn't all that bothered by your play but even I gotta say it was pretty annoying and unhelpful) so when you started on that track I got kind of freaked. I was wondering if I should've played scummier on purpose to avoid the night kill, but I guess that doesn't matter much now.

Funnily enough, I'm half wondering whether I should have claimed a Lapsa track instead of Konata night 2.

Either way, considering how Jester got run up day 1 you were right not to play too scummy. I came close to killing you night 2 (thought to be fair you and Konata were the only too choices) and night 3 (actually I very nearly went no kill for night 3 but I was afraid I might just push this game towards happily ever after and that's no fun for anyone) but never quite pulled the trigger.