Newbie 1320 -- Game Over

[Remembrance]

It's late so I need to be careful with my posting. I tend to post stupid stuff.

Your evaluation of my style is pretty accurate, and I could make a list of the the slight deviations between Zephyr and Hawk.

The fact that you're returning to the beginning makes me question whether the sorrow and unsurity is actually genuine.

I was in the midst of transition. Even after I put in all that posting effort, I removed my vote after you responded with a valid defense. That's the first time I've done that without the person claiming (with the exception of the hiccup early day 1). Small steps people.

Do I always change my reads? Hell yeah. Everything you say or do (or anyone says and does) is going to make me rethink my read on them. I want to make sure we're lynching scum.

You never asked a single question of Catlord. So I guess, you don't always give people a chance.

Look at how, in #892, his post is specifically directed at Ree. He isn't directing his post at the town. He's directing it at Ree. What? Why?

Uh, because he asked a question? I should have quoted him. I was responding to Ree's "What if I flip town?" question.

Please tell me what you meant by your "second best guess." Who is your "first best" and why are you settling for second?

I meant it's looking bad for Ree, and was implying I would kill him if he did not give a legitimate defense. Second best is Insanity.

Rob from now on I'm going to ask you, before you suspect me again. To read posts #527 and #529. It's evidence, don't ignore the evidence. If you want to suspect me debunk the evidence. Thank you.

[Rob14]

Uh...what? How is #527 and #529 at all related to anything?

Also, I ask questions for two reasons. First, I ask them for clarification. Second, I ask them to back someone into a corner. I needed to do neither with Cat. I didn't have anything I needed clarified and I didn't really spot anything that I could question in order to back Cat into a corner. I presented my case on Cat, and he had a chance to respond to that. The fact that I didn't make up useless filler questions in order to pad my "question count" is irrelevant.

[ProHawk]

Cool. care to go into specifics though? Possible teams even?

Not yet, your wagon just lost one. I will get to it when you're lynched.

[ProHawk]

I'm going to explain why I'm pulling this 1vs 1 tactic. In my recently completed game where I played scum, it was essentially pulled on me. It was the hardest tactic for me to counter and it lead to me losing the game.

I just finished reading this game. Well, at least starting where you were getting the heat on. Who started the 1v1 against you? Mares? I didn't get the feeling that it was 1v1... more like 3v1. Also, I would argue that what lead to you losing the game was you not wanting to hammer your scum-buddy.

[Mr_Ree]

Dude, you are going to die tonight unless we lynch scum. It's not me. You may as well give your reads now since you are now one of the few confirmed townies and today is probably the last chance you are going to have if you are so insistent on my lynch.

I'm going to post my cases soon enough and you can analyze the crap out of them and make your mind up on me from that. If you choose to lynch me, so be it. I'm really not going to be upset. What you do have to do is get everything you can possibly say in today to help town.

[ProHawk]

We have lots of time Mr. Ree. Nice try at fear-mongering though. Please address my questions.

[Remembrance]

Uh...what? How is #527 and #529 at all related to anything?

The reason these posts are relevant is because I would have known that I would not receive the number of power roles of the town for this game, if I were scum. Since the message would have contained/not contained them. Is it really that difficult to understand? Insanity got it, his refutation was that I might not have "read" my message.

[Remembrance]

Oh, Insanity has not posted for 2 days. I guess I can ask for a prod now?

Humbly requesting that Insanity change his avatar, I liked his old one more. And that he be prodded with a cattle prod.

[MrZepher]

Where oh where has my sanity gone...

[Rob14]

Uh...what? How is #527 and #529 at all related to anything?

The reason these posts are relevant is because I would have known that I would not receive the number of power roles of the town for this game, if I were scum. Since the message would have contained/not contained them. Is it really that difficult to understand? Insanity got it, his refutation was that I might not have "read" my message.

What caused you to remember and refer to those posts, 350+ posts back?

[Remembrance]

Because after Hawk, I realized that I can completely misinterpret a person's actions. In retrospect it was obvious that he got defensive of Zephyr because he jailed him. Therefore, the past is important to understanding the context of any game. Each post matters,and that question is ridiculously good evidence, but only if people bother to remember and understand it.

[Remembrance]

Except for the I.C.'s opening post*

[Rob14]

Yes, but why those posts specifically? Let me explain where my question's coming from. Often, scum will pull off something like that to make them look like idiotTown. For example, in my own newbie game, I faked an accidental soft-claim of townie. It wound up more-or-less winning me the game because in 3 person LyLo, the deciding voter didn't believe I would have done that move as a newbie, especially in combination with killing off my only scum read in the last night for WIFOM purposes.

Now, the fact that you used your own posts that were 350+ posts old, posts which no one would probably remember unless they purposefully posted them or were ISOing themselves (both actions that town is extremely unlikely to do), makes me think that you purposefully posted that similar to how I purposefully posted an "accidental soft-claim" in my own newbie game. I just don't see how town-you would recall those posts AND make the connection that they could make you look like town.

Vote Remembrance

[Remembrance]

I love you Rob, my first vote against me in Mafia! Aww yeah baby!

[Rob14]

Except for the I.C.'s opening post*

And why not? You still haven't explained this adequately. Everything anyone says in a game thread is able to be analyzed. Again, I'm NOT criticizing Ree for the fact that he welcomed you all to the game. I'm criticizing him for one sentence where he basically says "you guys are so good at the game that I'm not going to treat this like a newbie game" with no reasoning or super high quality posting so far at that point to back that up. I think that was an attempt to buddy up to the newbies.

[Rob14]

I love you Rob, my first vote against me in Mafia! Aww yeah baby!

And nice evasion of my points.

[Remembrance]

What points? You did the same dumb thing I told you not to. Project unto others. You're flat out wrong.

[Rob14]

What points? You did the same dumb thing I told you not to. Project unto others. You're flat out wrong.

So what made you remember those posts?

Also, that wasn't projecting. Offering an anecdote (i.e. I did this in a scum game) shows that scum could indeed do this. It is not at all uncommon to do it either, I just offered up one example of many. It's called a gambit. This particular gambit is relatively low-risk and (on the off chance that people notice it themselves) high-reward. It's the type of thing I wouldn't be surprised that a newbie performed.

[Remembrance]

Anecdotes? HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA...^25

[Rob14]

Again, dodging the question I asked and the points I raised. You picked out one word that I used that you don't like and criticized it instead of addressing my entire post.

Introducing...THE STRAW MAN!

[Remembrance]

Did you read my post? You weren't going to dig up the evidence so I did. You're lazy Rob13. And your case isn't worthy of a response.

[Remembrance]

Also, that isn't a straw man, you used an anecdote. That's the entirety of your case. An. Anecdote. I've been told about anecdotes a lot. A lot about anecdotes. You hear them in commercials "I lost weight in just 2 days." Try this new drink and "you'll build muscle in no time." During a hot summer's day I was robbed!" don't go out during a hot summer's day. That's the level of your argument against me, a thing you did once, as a gambit.

[Rob14]

Let me break this down for you. Here are the facts of my pressure on you. I wouldn't really call it a case.

"Newbies perform gambits." --> This is an indisputable fact.
"Town is unlikely to remember two insignificant posts" --> This is very likely to be true.
"Town is significantly less likely than scum to ISO themselves and look at their own posts" --> Indisputable fact.
"Scum wants to look like town." --> Indisputable fact.
"Scum has significant motivation to FAKE having less information than scum would actually have, because it makes them look town." --> Valid conclusion based on the above fact.
"Therefore, scum is more likely than town to pull two posts that make them look like they have less info than scum out of nowhere without the posts being brought up by someone else, BECAUSE town is unlikely to remember/look for the posts and scum has motivation to." --> Valid conclusion based on all the above points.

The anecdote was not the entire case. It just supported the fact that newbies perform gambits.

Yeah, you dug up evidence. You dug up evidence FROM YOUR OWN POSTS. As such I have no reason to believe it because you easily could have done that to look town as scum. Your argument of "I can't be scum because scum wouldn't post this: '-snip-'" is WIFOM. If that's your argument, then I pose the following question: "Why wouldn't scum do EXACTLY that if it makes them look town?"

The posts occurred 350 posts ago and scum are more likely to recall their own posting and stuff than town. They would be especially likely to recall something they purposefully inserted into the game. The fact that you remembered to point back to them is suspect when they haven't been brought up in the last 350 posts.

That's my case. Try refuting it without a straw man.

[Remembrance]

1. Need evidence.
2. Town are the investigators, they have just as much need to remember posts as Scum do.
3. I...Isoed myself to find the post number, unless you think I'm supposed to remember which # my post was, which would be a contradiction of point 2.
4. Too-town argument.
5. The razor, you know the one.
6. False conclusion based off weak premises, some of which you have used to debunk your argument against me.

I didn't even have to try that hard to refute this ROB13.

[Remembrance]

6. * "False conclusion, based off weak premises, some of which you used to debunk my argument against you."