Amnesiac Mafia: The Movie! That's a Wrap!

[Thestatusquo]

Starting during the basketball playoffs is

VOTE: klick

He knows why.

[Thestatusquo]

Also if I vote you I'm flirting with you.

[Thestatusquo]

There'll be time for us later Titus.

[Thestatusquo]

Also I'm at my friend's place watching basketball so i won't be here very much today so don't spam too much k?

[Thestatusquo]

Black i know you're an addict why haven't you posted yet

[Thestatusquo]

My favorite

newbie.

[Thestatusquo]

That's just fb.

[Thestatusquo]

Btw I am gonna say GiF is my first townlean here, for no reason in particular except vibe.

Pocketed

VOTE: Titus

[Thestatusquo]

As a team, we like Dunn's avatar. I like the red. Xofelf just likes it.

*watches players*

Hi can you explain why you thought it was pocketing

[Thestatusquo]

Can I? Yes.

Will I? Nope.

Ok but like I need you to.

[Thestatusquo]

Specifically if you could get into the part where you assume the alignment of the player who you are saying is pocketed that would be great.

[Thestatusquo]

Specifically if you could get into the part where you assume the alignment of the player who you are saying is pocketed that would be great.

I am so town.

Wait you're saying that you're there one pocketed? That's not how i read that post at all lol.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm incredibly skeptical of people who try to steer conversations towards mech this early.

[Thestatusquo]

I like FBs attempted reach out even if i think his conclusion is stupid.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm willing to believe Titus meant it the way she's saying. I can see that.

[Thestatusquo]

I also found Dunns interaction with fb kind of uncharitable.

[Thestatusquo]

Dunnstral is asking questions and means business, like that. Dragon entered sounding kind of aggressive? Not sure what to make of that yet.

I'm kinda curious about this. I felt like Dunnstal entered a little aggressive. Did you not see it that way?

This seems like kind of a busy work question.

[Thestatusquo]

Someone help me. Alisae is yelling at me

You're on your own mate.

[Thestatusquo]

I will say I don't love the attempt from firebringer to bring his teammate directly into the game like this.

I think it a) is a good way of making yourself seem town without any actual town behavior or actions (i.e. look how much my teammate is scum hunting and paying attention) and b) gives a layer of abstraction between your thoughts and your actions which can be useful to hide behind.

I'm used to the way team mafia warps mafia in this way and I've seen this as a tactic before.

Alisae could actually be invested in reading to find scum or fb could be making it up. Just want to throw that out there.

[Thestatusquo]

This seems like kind of a busy work question.

Just because you don't see value in the question doesn't mean there isn't any

I see value in the question but I don't think I see it in the way you asked it. Obviously Feysal does not agree because they said so in the very post you're quoting so I am not sure what useful information you actually are trying to provoke, unless you're trying to get them to change their mind in which case its a pretty half assed attempt at that as well.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea, who, besides me, is town?

No answer yet.

[Thestatusquo]

I've gotten both town pings and scum pings from fb, but that's normal.

[Thestatusquo]

I see value in the question but I don't think I see it in the way you asked it. Obviously Feysal does not agree because they said so in the very post you're quoting so I am not sure what useful information you actually are trying to provoke, unless you're trying to get them to change their mind in which case its a pretty half assed attempt at that as well.

I wanted them to look into the behaviors and tell me why one is aggressive and the other isn't. Can you let things progress?

You're free to progress things any way you want to, just like I am free to point out what I think is off.

I thought your question was off. And I think this post trying to tell me to not post my thoughts about you is also off.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea, would scum firebringer read you as town or scum right now.

Probably scumread. I think scumbringer would enjoy the theatre and memes of pushing me and would know that I'm not prone to scum read someone for pushing me.

But you're unpredictable.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not sure I've ever actually played as town against scum!you though and if I have I certainly don't remember it.

[Thestatusquo]

I continue to think that mech conversation right now is a waste of time. If we do end up mass claiming there's no reason to do it right now and theres even less reason to make it a topic of conversation instead of trying to find scum.

[Thestatusquo]

I think I've given plenty of thoughts and don't have anything I would describe as reads yet.

[Thestatusquo]

since when are you so obsessed with reads in the early game? Isn't your thing that the early game mainly only matters for analyzing wagons later?

[Thestatusquo]

I think fb would be playing this game differently as scum, but also I like REALLY don't like the ali stuff.

[Thestatusquo]

There's something black hasn't asked me yet which I expected her to and that makes me suspicious of her and its a big part of why I've been giving her a hard time.

[Thestatusquo]

I'd also warn you (@titus) not to underestimate her. Black isn't your typical newbie. At the risk of inflating her ego she's really quite good.

[Thestatusquo]

Before team mafia started we had a conversation where I said I thought I would be pretty good at reading you since I've modded or played in most of your on site games.

I said at the time I would tell you if we shared a PT.

But I expected you to bring it up because if you're town you'd want to get town read. If you're scum though you'd have a really good reason to not ask me about my meta thoughts on you.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean while its true that maybe expecting you to explicitly ask "please tell me about your meta thoughts on me" isn't exactly 100% fair, I would say that it was fair to expect you to be somewhat curious about what my read of you would be, and you've felt pretty fundamentally uncurious about that to me, and also kind of fundamentally uncurious about my alignment as well in our interactions so far.

[Thestatusquo]

Dunn have you played with FB before?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm kind of surprised Dunn is having this reaction to FB if they've played together before. FB lives for the troll. Showing he's annoying you only makes him grow even stronger.

[Thestatusquo]

BlueSnakelet Mafia; my thoughts are in post 75
Pink ball Town; I like that they are going after Dragoneater early in post 56 as I find them a little weird at this point too, I like that their few posts recently are taking stances instead of continuing to banter.
Black Town; I like how they are questioning/pushing things

What things is black actually questioning and pushing in a non-generic way?

[Thestatusquo]

I want to vote fb for spoilering like 3 paragraphs.

[Thestatusquo]

titus will you give some thoughts of your own. I'm not loving this neutral thread interrogator role you seem to be trying to position yourself into.

[Thestatusquo]

titus will you give some thoughts of your own. I'm not loving this neutral thread interrogator role you seem to be trying to position yourself into.

When the time is right. I'm awaiting Black here specifically.

I will tell you know that I had concerns about you first but waffling. Fire is obvtown btw.

This claim will only offend him.

[Thestatusquo]

Dunn why are you completely and utterly ignoring me?

[Thestatusquo]

titus will you give some thoughts of your own. I'm not loving this neutral thread interrogator role you seem to be trying to position yourself into.

When the time is right. I'm awaiting Black here specifically.

I will tell you know that I had concerns about you first but waffling. Fire is obvtown btw.

This claim will only offend him.

Him being Fire? Well I can only work with him so much. I don't care what others think of me but I can't fake reads that well as town, even to obscure. I'm a shitty mason (that's not a claim).

this is...a weird response.

I was just saying fb always gets mad at me when I town read him.

[Thestatusquo]

What do you think the purpose behind blacks questioning is?

Do you think its likely to be helpful to discovering the alignment of people she's questioning?

You say she is trying to "push things in a town direction" but that's a platitude. How is she doing that? I'm asking you to be concrete. Do you think she's displayed actual curiosity about the alignments of the people she is asking questions of and interacting with?

[Thestatusquo]

I didnt think basically saying "stop questioning me" and insinuating that somehow me asking questions of them was stopping them from "letting things happen" or whatever was town at all so I'm having a hard time seeing that one.

[Thestatusquo]

Can you explain why this question was such a case?

[Thestatusquo]

I think we've been out of RVS since approximately page 3.

[Thestatusquo]

Titus is fence sitting really hard this game. She is capable of playing this worthlessly as town, but not with a team she has to look out for and with other players she respects.

This is me/Firebringer town and Titus faking reads on both to position herself where she needs to be. She is going out of her way to be middle of the road.

Thestatusquo is almost a scumread because he is asking Titus all these questions and trying to get answers when personality wise he should just be voting her right now to force an answer.

I like your line of thinking here and honestly I find it fascinating that neither Titus nor Shea have addressed me despite both telling me before the start of Team Mafia that they were excited to play with me

I think I still TR Shea but that's probably because I disproportionately view effort as town

First of all how is it a good point when I AM in fact voting titus and have been almost literally the whole game. LLD's whole point is based on a false premise which makes me wonder if she's in fact reading this game at all. This is why I am incredibly dubious of "my tm says this my tm says that"

Second of all what have you done or said so far that you feel I should have been itching to address? I posted yesterday before you had done anything and I have posted like one inconsequential thing today.

[Thestatusquo]

Voting titus is literally like the first thing I did in the interaction. I find it incredibly hard to believe LLD missed that.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok Drixx.

You want engagement.

You Brick and Dunn is my current theory.

(look shea I did it!)

I'm so proud of you

[Thestatusquo]

Well as I said I missed your post.
Anyway I am not feeling like defending myself today since I am apparently THAT townie (I think I've had 4 people calling me town so far) so I will have to decline the offer to go into defense mode.

Seriously though, if you read my completed games, I basically almost always get a wagon formed on me during RVS (I'm what they call limbait), but this game I got people townreading me instead. So I was quite shocked.

the next step is to think critically about WHY that is.

If you don't feel like you're doing anything that townie and people are calling you townie, one would think you'd be interested into delving into those town reads to try to read the players professing a town read on you, but I don't really see that step in the thought process happening here.

[Thestatusquo]

If you're town scum know you're town, after all, right? So wouldn't a too easy town read be a place you would want to start looking?

[Thestatusquo]

I think dragon gets run up as town a lot and is annoyed by that generally, at least thats my perception from being pretty involved in the newbies queues over the last few months.

[Thestatusquo]

I think dragon gets run up as town a lot and is annoyed by that generally, at least thats my perception from being pretty involved in the newbies queues over the last few months.

Do you usually do this? Answering questions directed to others? I’m not criticizing I’m genuinely curious

Think so yes, when I feel like I have context that is helpful.

[Thestatusquo]

I think titus is town.

[Thestatusquo]

I will continue voting her just to annoy her when she does VCA later.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea, would scum firebringer read you as town or scum right now.

Probably scumread. I think scumbringer would enjoy the theatre and memes of pushing me and would know that I'm not prone to scum read someone for pushing me.

But you're unpredictable.

FB did you have a follow up to this question? Was I right? Do I get a prize?

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: TheStatusquo

LETS GET THIS GAME GOING INTO HYPER DRIVE
COME ON IN SHEA I GOT SNACKS FOR YOU

Is this just you trying to get me to scum read you? Are you doing that this game? It's an interesting play after me saying I thought scum you would choo choo.

@black It's hard to explain why I town read titus without being kind of rude but ehhhh the last few times I've seen titus as scum she basically hasn't really done anything at all and I guess I've come to think of her scum game as really lurky and do nothing and the level of engagement and active sorting I've seen so far this game is extremely far beyond what I've ever seen from her as scum. So like it kind of feels out of range. This could be dangerous because its team mafia and everyone is a little bit try hard but its good enough to town bin for now and reevaluate later.

[Thestatusquo]

I've played like 3ish games in a row with Titus where she has been scum and in this game I'm getting a zeal from her that I haven't felt in other games. I think she's engaged her town solving brain in a way that she wasn't quite there for in the last few games I've been in with her.

It could be Team Mafia making her tryhard even if she's scum but I'm enjoying her content so far regardless and am fine to boost what she's currently doing for the thread.

Yep.

[Thestatusquo]

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

You think this is distinct from their town game? I've never played with FA at all I don't think and I understand the general point you're making but I think I'm missing why this isn't also what their town game would look like?

[Thestatusquo]

I feel you
I do have vibe reads tho

you could maybe try sharing them.

[Thestatusquo]

Bruh it's page 19

[Thestatusquo]

This doesn't feel like a town anxiety ig.

Like i feel like a town mindset would be it's early so I'll just throw what i think out there and if it's underformed or not explained well that's fine.

It feels like a scum mindset to worry about whether ones reads are good enough or justified well enough.

Do you have examples of other games where you didn't post reads because you didn't really have time to explain them?

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: pink ball

I'll just add a little motivation then.

[Thestatusquo]

Std wya?

[Thestatusquo]

This doesn't feel like a town anxiety ig.

Like i feel like a town mindset would be it's early so I'll just throw what i think out there and if it's underformed or not explained well that's fine.

It feels like a scum mindset to worry about whether ones reads are good enough or justified well enough.

Do you have examples of other games where you didn't post reads because you didn't really have time to explain them?

I can attest to having the described scum mindset often as town fwiw
It comes more from a place of feeling like I'll be ignored if I don't present my most pressing thoughts appropriately/just trying to find the most effective time and means of saying what I want to say

Do you think you have this mindset early game because it doesn't really jive with what I've seen you doing in this game so far? Like I see you just throwing out thoughts like "x is town!" as you go as a way of being present and to me that is what I expect town to be doing in the extreme early game.

[Thestatusquo]

Ugh god I really don't like dragon's response there

vote: Dragon

Not to reiterate the things that Shea just said, but I do agree with him on this. You never once questioned four people calling you town seemingly with no good reason. And then calling yourself limbait, ehhhhhhh

Just feels like a way to preliminary poo-poo a wagon on you

Read my completed games - I've been called limbait several times on D1, different games.

Other people calling you limbait is not mutually exclusive to you using that as an excuse for your actions / an attempt to minimize any votes against you.

And for that matter, only after being repeatedly called out for it have you finally decided to analyze the people who were calling you town at an extremely early point in the game.

I kinda liked that reaction from dragon tbh. It felt idk pretty genuine to like see my post not as an attack but rather as a suggestion and start down the path of looking through klicks posts.

[Thestatusquo]

Spoiler: Game from #466 to #476

I feel you
I do have vibe reads tho

I feel you
I do have vibe reads tho

you could maybe try sharing them.

If I share them with how little time I've got to post it would be the same as not sharing them at all. It would look like a readlist rather than my actual thoughts.

Bruh it's page 19

So?

Game started 30 hours ago. I was away of home without my computer. Arrived today at noon, daddy Pink Ball responsabilities until the baby went to sleep, my wife arrived from BsAs so hubby Pink Ball responsabilities and now I'm doing a presentation for work tomorrow.

So do you want a readlist or my actual thoughts? I can give you the former, the latter will have to wait.

This doesn't feel like a town anxiety ig.

Like i feel like a town mindset would be it's early so I'll just throw what i think out there and if it's underformed or not explained well that's fine.

It feels like a scum mindset to worry about whether ones reads are good enough or justified well enough.

Do you have examples of other games where you didn't post reads because you didn't really have time to explain them?

Bruh

I have examples of games where I actually want to be active and have time to be part of the game. Throwing a readlist is not part of that

VOTE: pink ball

I'll just add a little motivation then.

Std wya?

I strongly dislike Thestatusquo's throughout this whole interaction. It felt like he wanted to leave this interaction with a scumread from the start. @Thestatusquo, are you usually this impatient as town?

END

VOTE: THE STATUS QUO!

In the early game yes. I'm going to poke and attack and shake the tree and see what falls out.

In this case I didn't like what fell out. Contrast that with dragon who I felt I had a very similar interaction with and in fact did like what fell out.

Or titus.

[Thestatusquo]

at the risk of getting too far into the weeds theory wise I see day one in a game of mafia as mainly a struggle against noise.

We are incredibly unlikely to actually lim scum on day 1. The reason for this is day 1s are filled with a large amount of noise. They're what I would call a low information state both because we don't have any associates to go off of but also because people are more random and tend to post noise, especially at the early stages of the game.

I therefore see my role at the beginning of the game to be to try to transition away from noise and get people posting signal as quickly as possible. I try to accomplish this by attacking small things as much as possible and then those small things become bigger things which force people to take stances and say what they think. So I would say it is generally an accurate description of my town game that I am extremely aggressive in the early game attempting to force interaction and stances and decrease the overall noise in the thread this way. Of course I know this about myself and so I am therefore trying to replicate this approach as scum as well, but your job is to figure out whether I'm genuine or not in what I'm doing and I think the way to do that is to look at the conclusions I'm coming to, which is why I brought up dragon and titus.

A corollary to that is that one of the things I look for in the early game is players who I think are trying to hide in the noise and not contributing to increasing the games signal. Pink Ball's posts are exactly that "I have some reads but I can't show them to you yet" is noise. It doesn't provide any useful information. It does not help me read pink ball either individually or as a component of a team. I am attacking that and seeing what it leads to. If pink ball ends up showing a thought process and contributing to the signal, I will likely move on. If pink ball doesn't and provides lackluster analysis or continues to just hand wave contributing to the thread I will probably keep my fangs out.

I wrote an article roughly 10 million years ago about this that you can read if you want. It's incredibly cringe since I was like 20 or something like that.

viewtopic.php?t=13710

[Thestatusquo]

So why did you not like him stating he hated not ranging mafia if you think it's truthful?

Firebringer is known for his trolling. When I saw that, my thought was pretty much "Ugh, is he actually scum and trolling us right now?" I did not actually know he liked playing as scum, only that he was capable of being bold when he was.

I did go back for another look, and on second reading it does not seem like taunting the town. Saying he did not get the role he wanted was more an offhand remark while talking about his role play, and he did not come out and say he was unhappy about not being scum until Dunnstral confronted him about it.

Do you usually mech spec and try to break setups right at start of games?

Just to be clear, you're asking me to provide meta on myself? One of the first lessons I learned on this site is that self-meta is fraught with peril. I have never lied about it, but have still gotten in trouble for it, because meta is often a matter of opinion and subjective.

With that out of the way, the short answer is I don't know. I have done something like that before, maybe at the start or later in game, but I don't remember all my games and I can't say how common it is. I also don't think it is worth delving deep into years old meta, so I'm just going to point you to three posts in three games as three alignments which I think are relevant, and give you a little context. Make of that what you will.

Spoiler: Self meta, aka rambling about the good old days

Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den #2515
I was a serial killer with a special win condition. Early in the game I had spoken of the need to organize the town, because I think everyone had damaging abilities, and I expected it to become a town-on-town bloodbath. It got so bad that third parties outnumbered the town. This was the post where I claimed, and offered to remove myself from the game by name-claiming, using a punishing game mechanic to my benefit. Ultimately I lived, because everyone left except the town had achieved their win conditions, and the mod did not want to drag it out.

Mini 1406: Sherlock Mafia #348
I started this by trying to bait people to talk about flavor, hoping to spot townslips. It was a major blunder. Later I figured out that we were actually playing assassin in the palace rather than regular mafia. I was a guard who did not know the identity of the king, and even some guards who were informed had not realized what the setup was. That remained my only achievement in game, though we did win.

Machina Mafia #150
I played this as an alt, and was scum. In this game power roles were divided in two pieces, with sensors and emitters needing receivers to target them. There was discussion about how we should play this, and I participated in that, offering my suggestions and calling out bad logic. I got executed, but ultimately Lady Lambdadelta carried the scum team to victory.

Like I can't be the only one who thinks that doesn't look like a genuine thought process. Why would they start mech specing assuming scum doesn't have fake claim and setup is breakable as town?

You want to know? I'll tell you why.

At Dawn, members of the town will receive their Amnesiac Role. There are a number of roles in rotation that will be randomly distributed each Dawn Phase. That means that even dead players will be assigned Amnesiac Roles at Dawn. (Though they will not be PMed, since they are dead) The Mafia Team will be assigned Amnesiac Roles in the same random manner, though the roles will not be granted to them.

In this game, scum do not have fake claims. They get real roles assigned to them from the same pool as town every morning. It says here that the roles are not granted to them though, and that left it ambiguous in my mind whether they would even be told what they were. I could just about imagine a game where scum would need to keep track of which roles town had claimed during previous days, maybe even making up a fake claim and pretending it had been assigned to a dead player on the days they did not claim it themselves. Getting ahead of that might have been beneficial, but as already stated, it does not work.

Firebringer spent all of the last game we played together trying to get me to scum read him and telling me that he won the game if I scum read him.

He was town. I think trolling in NAI for firebringer. He's definitely capable of doing it as scum though.

[Thestatusquo]

FAs takes all feel...uh. Bad. Extremely bad.

If someone who is sus of dragoneater could tell me why they think the interaction with me was more likely to come from scum I'd appreciate it. FA and Kuribo both expressed this view I think.

[Thestatusquo]

Reads. Solid positions, like the last few times I have asked.

Why are my reads not good enough? If it's because the positions aren't solid enough then you're going to have to deal with it because I'm rarely going to be confident enough in my reads to take solid stances in the first 24 hours of a game. If it's because you don't agree with the reads then we can discuss why and figure out where the disconnect is

Here are my most solid positions even though I wouldn't trust myself standing on these:

Dunn is probably my top TR. Originally I was a little skeptical of his entrance but I think his responses to pressure have been really good
Fey was also someone I was unsure about early because the way they danced around the massclaim and the slight overreaction to FB voting for Dunn. However I think Fey vs. FB looks a little TvT looking back over it and I lean town on them
Which means I also lean town on FB
I think Dragon has been pretty townie too. Add my name to the list
I liked FA's entrance and her thoughts felt like they were coming from a genuine solvey place, however I started to doubt that after reading some of what Klick put down about her. Klick has a couple of good points about why he thinks FA is scummy here even if they aren't very strong. Like they seem like things that would make Klick sus of FA but not necessarily things that could get others onboard. FA's whole reaction to the Klick push was to discredit it and then jump on Dragon for following it and I feel like this could be interpreted as her going for an easier target
I lean town with Klick. I think his posting always gives me town vibes though so I'm cautious here
I'm not sure how I feel about Shea or Titus
I need to read over kuribo, GiF, and Drixx because I can't recall anything off the top of my head about these slots
I think Pink Ball and Blue are the two players that are the scummiest to me atm. These are weak reads but I don't like what I've seen from them so far

Gun to your head is me v blue snakelet svs tvs or tvt

[Thestatusquo]

Gun to your head is me v blue snakelet svs tvs or tvt

Is it bad that I can see all 3? I'd probably go tvs if someone had a gun to my head

No I'm unsure if the attack is genuine or not which is why I asked.

I'm not usually the guy scum goes after in the early game so that actually makes me tend to want to town read pushes on me early. But I don't know anything about blue from a meta sense and more importantly I don't know if they know anything about me.

[Thestatusquo]

Every minute PB does not come in and say reads we stray further and further from god by the way.

STD completely MIA also.

[Thestatusquo]

I dont believe in VLA. Except for my own.

[Thestatusquo]

I think my spiciest scum read is feysal.

They say a lot of words that don't mean a lot.

[Thestatusquo]

most likely tvs. Could see svs but I don't think FB is likely to be scum.

[Thestatusquo]

I am feeling better about you with this real timing too.

[Thestatusquo]

I am feeling better about you with this real timing too.

Why? I don't feel like I'm doing anything different

You seem more curious.

[Thestatusquo]

Maybe teaching you to post gifs was a mistake.

[Thestatusquo]

It's a big part of my town read of titus that it felt like she was picking up similar vibes from your posting as I was which was that you seemed to just be here and posting and not actually trying to discover my alignment while we were talking.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think Pink is nearly as scummy as he was in the game we played together a few weeks back, which is really saying something because PB was a third party that game and I let the rest of the town talk me out of pushing him day 1.

This game is weird, Mala and I both feel there's this bizarre vibe in this game where it seems like people are sidestepping me like some of y'all just don't want the smoke and hassle of arguing with me on day 1. This isn't necessarily directed at anyone in particular, more of a "general feel" of the game.

In this game, scum do not have fake claims. They get real roles assigned to them from the same pool as town every morning. It says here that the roles are not granted to them though, and that left it ambiguous in my mind whether they would even be told what they were. I could just about imagine a game where scum would need to keep track of which roles town had claimed during previous days, maybe even making up a fake claim and pretending it had been assigned to a dead player on the days they did not claim it themselves. Getting ahead of that might have been beneficial, but as already stated, it does not work.

Right, so one thing to keep in mind is that if you, say, get a neighbor role with someone else and you both actually get the role, then you're essentially masons because you're confirmed town to one another.

I asked you a direct question about dragon that you haven't responded to.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think Pink is nearly as scummy as he was in the game we played together a few weeks back, which is really saying something because PB was a third party that game and I let the rest of the town talk me out of pushing him day 1.

This game is weird, Mala and I both feel there's this bizarre vibe in this game where it seems like people are sidestepping me like some of y'all just don't want the smoke and hassle of arguing with me on day 1. This isn't necessarily directed at anyone in particular, more of a "general feel" of the game.

In this game, scum do not have fake claims. They get real roles assigned to them from the same pool as town every morning. It says here that the roles are not granted to them though, and that left it ambiguous in my mind whether they would even be told what they were. I could just about imagine a game where scum would need to keep track of which roles town had claimed during previous days, maybe even making up a fake claim and pretending it had been assigned to a dead player on the days they did not claim it themselves. Getting ahead of that might have been beneficial, but as already stated, it does not work.

Right, so one thing to keep in mind is that if you, say, get a neighbor role with someone else and you both actually get the role, then you're essentially masons because you're confirmed town to one another.

I asked you a direct question about dragon that you haven't responded to.

I must have missed it, give me a sec and I'll find it

I mean I also followed up about your post about dragon directly after disagreeing with you and you ignored that too.

To be its weird for you to characterize people as playing around you (and this is now the second time you've done this) when I'm directly trying to engage with you and you keep missing it.

[Thestatusquo]

FAs takes all feel...uh. Bad. Extremely bad.

If someone who is sus of dragoneater could tell me why they think the interaction with me was more likely to come from scum I'd appreciate it. FA and Kuribo both expressed this view I think.

Oh, here it is.

More like to come from scum than town is kind of a loaded way of saying it. I'd say that my gut tells me in this case it's worth pursuing whether it does come from scum or town. It's a jumping off point.

PEdit: I'm not ignoring you, dude, there are a lot of posts, I missed one, relax

Ugh god I really don't like dragon's response there

vote: Dragon

Not to reiterate the things that Shea just said, but I do agree with him on this. You never once questioned four people calling you town seemingly with no good reason. And then calling yourself limbait, ehhhhhhh

Just feels like a way to preliminary poo-poo a wagon on you

Read my completed games - I've been called limbait several times on D1, different games.

Other people calling you limbait is not mutually exclusive to you using that as an excuse for your actions / an attempt to minimize any votes against you.

And for that matter, only after being repeatedly called out for it have you finally decided to analyze the people who were calling you town at an extremely early point in the game.

I kinda liked that reaction from dragon tbh. It felt idk pretty genuine to like see my post not as an attack but rather as a suggestion and start down the path of looking through klicks posts.

This one too. I'm interested in poking your dragon read because you seem to be reacting to things exactly opposite of me.

[Thestatusquo]

And the first post, the one where you "directly disagreed," the one that I quoted, I just didn't see it as something that needed responding to. Like, you and I don't see it the same way and that's fine. I saw your post more as you explaining your mindset in the matter.

Right but you disagree that it felt like a genuine reaction? If so why?

[Thestatusquo]

*do you

[Thestatusquo]

This one too. I'm interested in poking your dragon read because you seem to be reacting to things exactly opposite of me.

As I said, at the time I didn't see it as something you wanted a response to, I just figured you were throwing in your two cents. You do that a lot. And I don't say that as a criticism, you've mentioned yourself in this game that it's part of your style to comment on the goingson around you. I think that's fine that you do that. But you do have to understand that when you have dozens and dozens of posts, yes, there will be instances where people just figure you're offering commentary / putting your view on the record rather than asking for further input. What I'm saying is that if you do have direct questions, I'm not the brightest guy, it helps to be direct.

My scumread on Dragon isn't super strong. I even have a stronger scumread that, like I mention, just isn't worth pushing today. Interacting with Dragon for what I saw as "oh shit, yeah, I should have questioned why people called me town on page 2 instead of just bragging about it" is as good a jump-in point as any for me. Because that's ultimately how I saw his action in that. It was a retcon. An attempt to fix an oversight. Perhaps from inexperienced scum, perhaps from town who didn't realize that it can be indicative of buddying. My job here is to figure out which, and coming at Dragon for it is the best way I know how to do that.

I think its a reasonable approach to my slot but I think its a weird view to hold while simultaneously saying people arent engaging with you.

What kind of engagement do you expect that you havent been getting?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm still interested in your answer to the question did dragons reaction to my pressure not feel genuine to you? Like there's a lot of ways to react to 'you don't seem interested in interrogating the easy town reads on you.'

Saying 'Oh, I didn't even think of that!' and then doing it seems like...incredibly on the nose if you're scum, no?

[Thestatusquo]

if you want to scream at me I won't report you.

Just for old times sakes.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm still interested in your answer to the question did dragons reaction to my pressure not feel genuine to you? Like there's a lot of ways to react to 'you don't seem interested in interrogating the easy town reads on you.'

Saying 'Oh, I didn't even think of that!' and then doing it seems like...incredibly on the nose if you're scum, no?

As I said, it's a jumping off point: ie, I'm still trying to figure out if his reaction to your pressure felt genuine to me.

To someone like you or I who wouldn't do that and have a lot of experience over, fifteen years on the site? Yes, it would be incredibly on the nose. For Dragon, who has significantly less experience? Inexperienced scum do things all the time that you or I wouldn't do.

I think my whole point is it doesnt seem like something inexperienced scum would do.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think my soul would be good for ass wiping tbh. It's too worn and tattered.

[Thestatusquo]

alright time to wagon feysal lets go.

VOTE: Feysal

[Thestatusquo]

truuuu

[Thestatusquo]

Your answer feels sort of evasive to me though and I don't understand why you would be evasive about this?

[Thestatusquo]

I feel better about Shea even though i still think he is trying to pocket Black though. Which maybe isn't whats happening and he is just legit trying to sort. It feels like some sort of pocket attempt but when i read what he is doing it looks like sorting in my brain. Gut tells me one thing brain says another.

I'm trying to pocket black irl.

[Thestatusquo]

FYI alisae did not like the TSQ/PB exchange expilicity on the TSQ side.

missing from this is any reason why.

[Thestatusquo]

Ali scum reading something I do makes me more likely to think I'm right about it tbh.

[Thestatusquo]

Wait 15 players.
ugh. Now i have to think about if theres a traitor or fourth.
Alisae said this was multiball at some point but i don't see that mentioned anywhere.

is this one of your trolls?

[Thestatusquo]

I feel like if any other player just randomly started talking about multiball for no reason whatsoever in the middle of day one I would just vote them immediately.

[Thestatusquo]

Not really, no.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm really not reading any of this shit about multiball

Unless and until I see a flipped scum with a team name and a different color, I'm assuming it's one scum team

different team name and color from what, exactly?

[Thestatusquo]

I just thought the wording implied knowledge of the first name/color.

I don't really believe in slips and i can see your thought process for why you would put it that way though.

[Thestatusquo]

I had a few things I wanted to say but today has been a terrible day and I'm not in the mood.

oog I hope you're ok and if I can do anything to help let me know.

Sorry your day was bad.

[Thestatusquo]

black stop pocketing me.

[Thestatusquo]

PB I feel like you still haven't actually given much in the way of reads despite being generally *around*

[Thestatusquo]

No one seems to want to join me on my glorious quest to murder feysal so I guess I'll join the FA wagon.

VOTE: FA

[Thestatusquo]

I didnt push, just voted and waited to see who would jump on.

No one did.

[Thestatusquo]

I think feysal is scummy but I don't have a good understanding of why I think that yet.

[Thestatusquo]

I am scumreading Feysal and i didn't even see that.
THat looks like an RVS push for a wagon.

Get better scrub

this is unkind sir.

[Thestatusquo]

hell yeah VOTE: Feysal

[Thestatusquo]

might want to get more present day.

[Thestatusquo]

Why would you not join the wagon on feysal then instead of splitting votes by jumping on dragon?

[Thestatusquo]

I have talked about dragon millions of times already. Perhaps try reading my posts?

Also I'm starting to get to the point where i need more from klick. I know there was vla and then a bad day but the result of that is that we've gotten very little.

[Thestatusquo]

Going through Feysal ISO

I would argue Dragon didn't seem to care about RVS much either. I feel like both of their entrances could be considered "aggressive with a disregard for RVS" so I just wanted to see why Dunnstral got the pass.

It was a difference in tone. Dunnstral was asking questions, but Dragon seemed angry at Firebringer for the act and voted them for it.

What is the difference of tone? This seems like a buzz word to talk about nothing while sounding like you actually have reasoning.

Here is the posts Dragon made on the subject

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

Monocole man suddenly draws a gun, aiming it at the cowboy.
"Drop the act!" he calls out to him. "Or else, drop dead."

(Fire please take the hint and stop this madness)

What exactly this tonally angry about these posts? Maybe I could see you picking up on the language being a bit overwrought with "dare I say" and "stop this madness" but angry? Nah. This feels like you're trying to make an ex post facto distinction that isn't there to artificially explain why you didn't pick up on two things being similar.

To piggyback off of FBs post there's no sorting here either. I don't get the impression you're trying to read dragoneater at all here OR dunn for that matter, I get the impression you made a comment about someone being scummy because it looks like thread engagement and then had to try to justify later, but missing from all of your commentary on dragon and dunn is an actual thought process about motivation. Even if I buy your premise that dragon was angry (which I don't, I don't buy that the things are tonally different and if anything it goes in the opposite direction) why is this scum?

Dragon entered sounding kind of aggressive?

Elaborate red one.

I've seen Dragon's town games, and got the impression that he was more relaxed in them. I would have expected him to join in on the joke for a laugh, not to tell Firebringer to knock it off. There is a sort of nervousness I get from his play, and I wonder why that is.

So now we get some sort of explanation for why this is scum dragon and not town dragon but we've changed how we're describing him. Now he's not angry, he's nervous. We would have expected him to join in on the joke. Never mind the goal post shifting but [citation needed].

Can you provide me with examples of dragon "joining in on the joke for a laugh" instead of finding it scummy?

More to the point this read is now extremely stale. A whole ton of stuff has happened since then and you're still on something dragoneater did on like the first post of the game. If you actually had a sincere scum read on him why have you not commented on the stuff hes posted and done since? Has it changed your read? Is it still tonally angry? Is it tonally nervous? You seem to have taken roughly 2 stances this game which you haven't updated since saturday despite like 20 pages. Everything else in this ISO is either noise or defending yourself. And I know you're catching up but I haven't seen any evidence of any sort of progression in any of the posts where you're doing so. You still seem caught up on things that happened 20 pages ago and are ignoring anything that has happened since except for discussion of those things.

[Thestatusquo]

I think I figured out why I'm scum reading Feysal and its because everything they say reads disingenuous to me. I have a hard time feeling like they believe any of it.

[Thestatusquo]

I have repeatedly explained my dragoneater read and you have refused to engage with it.

[Thestatusquo]

p24
like pink ball and kuribo
don't like shea

Not personally I hope. I thought we were buds.

[Thestatusquo]

In other news I don't like Blacks shift off of titus at all.

It seems like an excuse to get off something that was going nowhere after putting a bunch of effort into constructing a reason to scum read them.

Like if there was conviction there in the first place I would have expected more of an effort to convince people instead of just dropping a case and then quietly backing off when nothing has really changed in the game state.

[Thestatusquo]

I also feel like black has been avoiding me and not commenting on me at all which reads to me like she knows I was a little suspicious of her and is worried that if she makes me notice her it will turn into a full on scum read.

[Thestatusquo]

Black is her.

[Thestatusquo]

What progression? What changed?

[Thestatusquo]

Does titus being sick mean she can't be scum? Her posts and actions that you cased are still there and she hasn't done much since.

Drixx also hasn't done much since either, but you seem to think they're linked? How so?

[Thestatusquo]

Does titus being sick mean she can't be scum? Her posts and actions that you cased are still there and she hasn't done much since.

Drixx also hasn't done much since either, but you seem to think they're linked? How so?

Nah, you're definitely not reading my posts. Lol

I've been thinking about my Titus read a lot since I posted it yesterday. She hasn't even responded yet and I'm already doubting it

The way Drixx responded to my case makes me feel way worse about it. The OMGUS/delusions of grandeur felt like a forced read to show Titus "see? look, we're not scum together"

and I get the vibe that Drixx's 372 had nervous energy behind it which would explain him wanting to gain townie points from Titus by discrediting my case

Then we have 828 and this just feels like a pocketing attempt

I still want to hear from Titus regarding her motivations after the conclusion of her interrogating me but I'm less confident in her alignment than I was yesterday

I missed this but reading it now I don't really understand it and I still don't really understand why it changes anything for you? Why are drixx and titus unaligned?

[Thestatusquo]

867 is exactly the post I was referring to. Your claim that thinking drixx might be scum makes titus less likely to be scum makes so sense to me so can you explain it to me like I'm 5?

[Thestatusquo]

Can I get your thoughts on feysal and dragoneater? @black

[Thestatusquo]

Don't use inferior themes.

[Thestatusquo]

list is ordered

Firebringer
Black
Kuribo

DragonEater70
Klick
GuyInFreezer

Titus
Pink Ball
Dunnstral

Feysal
BlueSnakelet

Thestatusquo
Drixx
Frozen Angel

VOTE: Frozen Angel

Can I get some whys?

Specifically I'd like the why on black and I'd like the why you think me and feysal are scum v scum

[Thestatusquo]

That's pretty annoying.

[Thestatusquo]

What do you think of STDs catch-up

[Thestatusquo]

I'd also like your thoughts on my larger post on feysal.

[Thestatusquo]

re: std finding me suspicious I guess I would say of course I am not out of my scum range, but I very rarely am.

I'd like more thoughts on what things he thinks I am trying to accomplish game state wise that he thinks have scum motivation because that's the correct approach to solving me. Just hearing "I don't like your posts" or whatever is extremely frustrating.

[Thestatusquo]

Its also frustrating to me because outside of black and me I agree with like almost the entirety of the rest of your reads so I'd prefer to work with you rather than spend the rest of the game fighting with you.

[Thestatusquo]

I will eat my cat if this is scum titus tbh.

[Thestatusquo]

My questions serve to put things in place in my mind and I process the answers and consider your alignment. I scum lean you and nothing in your answers changed my mind. I don't need to follow up on that because I'm happy with where my vote is at.

I also think my reasoning is pretty clear from the questions I asked you. They were pretty loaded.

[Thestatusquo]

I explained my understanding of titus' scum game and this is not it.

I see we've moved on to you trying to shade me as it becomes more clear to you that you can't avoid the scum read.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't feel like you're trying to solve the game. I feel like you're focusing in neat little spots and ignoring wide swaths of the game in order to do it. I feel like you're playing a reactionary game where you pick spots where it feels safe for you to jump in and interact and not taking sides on important parts of the discussion.

I think your titus case felt fake. I think that your progression and follow up was bad. I think there was no real conviction behind it in the first place which is incongruous with how you presented it at the time. I get the impression that if other people had jumped on you would have kept voting it. I think your vote on drixx could be distancing because it doesn't feel super well explained to me. I don't like how you used it to jump off titus because it feels convenient. Your original attack on titus felt like omgus to begin with.

I feel like you've only commented on important parts of the game when I've pressed you (i.e. dragon vs. feysal i.e. all of firebringers ISO. I.e. pink ball) and in those spots your answers have been fence sitty and non-committal.

[Thestatusquo]

More importantly I feel like this isn't your town game. When I've seen you play town you are quick to offer opinions and thoughts about almost everything going on and when I've observed you playing scum you have a tendency to sit back and let the game happen and you tend to be much more non-committal.

I think what I'm describing in the first paragraph matches what I expect of scum you much more than town you in the like 4-5 games I've seen.

[Thestatusquo]

I scum lean you and nothing in your answers changed my mind. I don't need to follow up on that because I'm happy with where my vote is at.

See, I'm not buying this. You missed a crucial post explaining my progression from Titus to Drixx, so when you asked about it and I explained my progression, why would you then not go "ok Black's progression makes a little more sense now." Instead you are claiming that the huge post you missed did nothing to change your mind?

I fundamentally don't think that post makes sense dude.

[Thestatusquo]

go read some of her scum games.

[Thestatusquo]

More importantly I feel like this isn't your town game.

When I've seen you play town you are quick to offer opinions and thoughts about almost everything going on and when I've observed you playing scum you have a tendency to sit back and let the game happen

and you tend to be much more non-committal.

I have no idea how you can interpret me this game as "sitting back and letting the game happen" when I

have

I've offered opinions and thoughts on almost about everything. This read doesn't make sense at all

I gave 3 examples where I think you have been completely ignoring important parts of the game.

@pink ball yes it was at you.

[Thestatusquo]

Like how is it a good faith response to say "I haven't been ignoring things!" while ignoring the things I literally listed that you have been almost completely silent on?

[Thestatusquo]

Eh fuck it VOTE: Black that's not a real response.

[Thestatusquo]

All you said about pink ball was "shea seems like he's being unfair but I'm sus of pink ball" and then you haven't commented on him since.

[Thestatusquo]

I've pressed you multiple times on dragon vs feysal because it seems like a very critical keystone read to me in this game and almost every time you've basically been like "oh I don't know."

[Thestatusquo]

You were ignoring me until I started attacking you again.

At the start of this conversation you had this to say

I also feel like black has been avoiding me and not commenting on me at all which reads to me like she knows I was a little suspicious of her and is worried that if she makes me notice her it will turn into a full on scum read.

That's funny, I thought it was weird how you avoided my Titus post. I thought you would engage since you seem to know her well

I've commented on you some but you're not really pinging me that much either way atm

but now you're acting like you've been scum reading me like literally 20 minutes later. The only thing that changed is I started pressing you again.

[Thestatusquo]

TSQ you keep accusing people of ignoring you and I think you're just not being clear since it seems to happen so often. I can't off the top of my head tell you what the 3 examples you gave were or what this latest argument was based off of.

Ok THIS isn't a real post.

Literally read dude

[Thestatusquo]

I don't feel like you're trying to solve the game.

I feel like you're focusing in neat little spots and ignoring wide swaths of the game in order to do it. I feel like you're playing a reactionary game where you pick spots where it feels safe for you to jump in and interact and not taking sides on important parts of the discussion.

I think your titus case felt fake. I think that your progression and follow up was bad. I think there was no real conviction behind it in the first place which is incongruous with how you presented it at the time.

I get the impression that if other people had jumped on you would have kept voting it.

I think your vote on drixx could be distancing because it doesn't feel super well explained to me. I don't like how you used it to jump off titus because it feels convenient. Your original attack on titus felt like omgus to begin with.

I feel like you've only commented on important parts of the game when I've pressed you (i.e. dragon vs. feysal i.e. all of firebringers ISO. I.e. pink ball) and in those spots your answers have been fence sitty and non-committal.

I play this way as town too, so why is this suddenly AI to you?

Not having conviction in things is like the number one thing about me early D1. I'm much more solid in my stances later in the game after flips and associatives. You know this. I know you do

You're purposefully being obtuse then because I've explained it twice now

Again, "fence sitty" and "non-committal" are not scum tells for me. You've read all my games and you know this

I strongly disagree. I think there is extreme differences in your town and scum game, and earlier in this conversation you said you werent in fact doing this, so which is it?

It's not about conviction, its more about avoid the conversations entirely. You don't do that as town.

You are saying you've explained it but I don't think your explanation makes sense. It seems like an excuse rather than a reason to me.

Again, I strongly disagree. In hollow knight you were very strong in your convictions and even though you changed your mind frequently you didn't shy away from giving them or having them. The issue, once again, is that you seem to be avoiding large swaths of the game entirely and only comment on them when I press you on them. The answers being fence sitty and non-committal is only me saying I find your engagement with me to be pretty lackluster but the bigger problem is that without asking I couldn't think of what your thoughts on dragoneater are. I can't think of what your thoughts on firebringer are. Show me you're actually paying attention to those things? Your answers don't show me that you are or that you care about them. That's fundamentally the problem. You could help me off this read if you could give me a break down of firebringer or feysal or dragoneater that suggests to me that you care about the answer. That's the fundamental thing thats missing.

[Thestatusquo]

Like how is it a good faith response to say "I haven't been ignoring things!" while ignoring the things I literally listed that you have been almost completely silent on?

Dude, I haven't been purposefully ignoring things. If I haven't commented on it then I either don't have a strong opinion either way yet or I'm keeping it close to my chest. I don't think it's scummy that I'm not liveposting every thought that I have

This is a misrepresentation of what I'm saying. I am not suggesting you live tweet every thought, I certainly don't expect you to do that nor am I doing that myself (ironic because that seems to be precisely what you attacked me for in your post about how my questions don't go places every time)

I don't get the sense you care about the rest of the game other than the specific parts you are actually focusing on and the parts you are focusing on seem inconsequential and safe to me.

[Thestatusquo]

In hollow knight you were very strong in your convictions and even though you changed your mind frequently you didn't shy away from giving them or having them.

In that game I townread 3 of the 4 scum very heavily. You don't think that would cause me to have a little less conviction moving forward?

This is the 2nd game in a row where I'm having to defend myself against meta reads and it's getting tiring. Meta changes. People change. There are outside circumstances that could cause one person to play differently from one game to the next. I'm just tired of it

And yeah go ahead and paint this post as scummy too. "Black's flailing"

It's just exhausting

I told you how you can help me find a town read on you and it involves sharing thoughts in depth on the parts of the game that I feel like you've been ignoring and actually feeling like you care. You can start with firebringer vs feysal vs dragoneater, your choice.

Either your scum and you can't do this with conviction or I'd like you to think about those parts of the game if you're town.

It's also a misrepresentation to say my entire care on you is meta. That is a component of what I'm saying but mostly I think the way you're approaching this game is reactionary and safe and that has way more scum motivation that town.

[Thestatusquo]

I typo so much when I type quick :/

[Thestatusquo]

std there was a significant difference in how you responded to me and how you responded to drixx when asked for clarification. Why is that?

[Thestatusquo]

Is it just that we're friendly outside of this game?

[Thestatusquo]

Ok but WHY

[Thestatusquo]

this is the whole point, its not the conviction, its just that it seems like theres empty reads there with no thought behind them.

[Thestatusquo]

i think the way you both responded to me was different?

this is fair.

I will say the person who probably knows me best in the whole PL coming in and scum reading me out of nowhere really took a hacksaw to my motivation but I'm trying to work through that.

[Thestatusquo]

im sorry that i'm scum reading you shea but i think there's something there i got to explore

I don't blame you because like I said I purposefully try to stay in my scum range all the time but I feel like this is the first game I have tryharded in in a very long time so it still felt...crappy.

Explore away. I'll keep trying to find scum while you're exploring. Like I said I like where you're poking besides me and clearly we strongly disagree on black.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't blame you because like I said I purposefully try to stay in my scum range all the time but I feel like this is the first game I have tryharded in in a very long time so it still felt...crappy.

Can you elaborate on the things you do to try and stay in your scum range, and would you say you're doing them this game even though you're tryharding?

A good example is I am incredibly performative as town. I know I'm prone to gusto and performative posting as scum so I deliberately do it as town in order to stay balanced.

Another example is posting things like read lists. I actually think they're generally pretty useless but people tend to town read the effort behind them so I like to do them as scum for town cred sometimes which means I have to do them as town too even though I think they're mostly noise.

I would say yes I am being deliberately performative in my interactions with you because I know I would be as scum.

[Thestatusquo]

Do you really think I would conceive of your slot as low hanging fruit? That doesn't feel like a real thought you would have?

As for black I am explicitly already giving her space now. I think I've made it very clear why I have a problem with how she's approached this game and what she can do to make me feel more comfortable about her slot.

[Thestatusquo]

We haven't played together, no. But I know who you are and we've interacted a bit in site ideas.

I also don't think my scum game really involves much going for low hanging fruit in the early game and I struggle to see why that would be a reason to scum read someone. Like what do you think my motivation would be? Just start a wagon on you and hope you never post?

[Thestatusquo]

We haven't played together, no. But I know who you are and we've interacted a bit in site ideas.

I also don't think my scum game really involves much going for low hanging fruit in the early game and I struggle to see why that would be a reason to scum read someone. Like what do you think my motivation would be? Just start a wagon on you and hope you never post?

No yeah I know we know each other, but I think the mafia realm is a whole different thing so believing that I could be LhF is not something outside of the box.

More than actually hoping that I never post, it is a good strategy to jump on someone that's being underwhelming to subvert them and get them in a position where they'll continue to be underwhelming even if they try to get outside of that.

This could be me projecting my own old meta where I used to jump eagerly into games being funny and trying to be friendly only to find people scumreading me and not being able to contribute at all after that, bear in mind. But my initial thought about your approach on my slot didn't feel like that, it felt like what I described early in this post: subverting me to leave me out of the game early.

Do you think you've continued to be underwelming? I kind of think you have even though I haven't pressured you for it because I got distracted elsewhere, but I still don't feel like you've been very forthcoming with reads at all.

[Thestatusquo]

I would describe you very much as being in the background this game. Would you say thats an accurate description of your town play?

[Thestatusquo]

I simply have never seen scum react the way you're describing, especially new scum, to being pressured like that. So no, I would say it did not feel that way to me.

[Thestatusquo]

Can you provide me previous examples of scum, especially new scum, doing what you're claiming dragon is doing? You're making it sound like this is something scum do all the time and that has simply not been my experience.

[Thestatusquo]

I just want your thoughts.

[Thestatusquo]

Love how xoffy's read on me is shade. Love you xoffy.

[Thestatusquo]

The one thing I'm stuck on wrt feysal is they do seem to believe their dragoneater read. Kind of feels like something scum would have moved on from by now.

[Thestatusquo]

I could see myself voting FA if black comes back with something that makes me think shes town.

[Thestatusquo]

Shea, I'm going to look into Fey/dragon/FB. If I can

't get around to it

t

onight I'll d

o

it first thing in the morning

Is there anything in particular you

w

a

n

t me to look at there?

look

s

he

c

r

um

bed town here

oh no

[Thestatusquo]

I've never read something quite as tiring as Thestatusquo's and Drixx's case against Black. As I slowly read it, trying my best to extract meaning out from their drawn out sentences, the concepts I absorbed gradually began to bounce uselessly against the back of my head.

Fortunately, I managed to piece together what I believe to be the base of their case,

that Black is behaving differently from what her town play usually is

.

(If there's more to it than that, feel free to restate it. I'm not plunging into the depths of the last few pages ever again.

I do have a rebuttal: I played exactly one game with Black where she was town. It is a recent game, it literally concluded right when Team Mafia was starting, so I believe it to be a accurate representation of what her town play currently is. In the early game of that game, Black play was really similar to what she's displaying now. She was already playing a lot safer than the behavior described.

Interesting pile of straw.

[Thestatusquo]

And like maybe you could try talking to me without being a condescending twit? That would be cool.

As I slowly read it, trying my best to extract meaning out from their drawn out sentences, the concepts I absorbed gradually began to bounce uselessly against the back of my head.

This shit is more drawn out and fucking tiresome than anything I wrote in the whole back and forth and frankly the smell of your farts cant POSSIBLY be that good.

[Thestatusquo]

My thoughts are if that is your conclusion you can't possibly have been engaging with what I was saying in any kind of good faith because while I touched on meta (and I have modded 2 of blacks games and played in another and have read most of the others besides so maybe you arent as big of an expert as you think you are) my point was very clearly not based on meta in its entirety and I said so multiple times.

[Thestatusquo]

I do however think its a general scum tactic to come in and complain after a long back and forth without truly engaging with it in order to shade the participants and look like you're doing something meaningful without actually doing anything meaningful.

[Thestatusquo]

I think its an extremely normal conversation between two people arguing in a game of mafia so no, I find your statement disingenuous. Maybe I would be interested in engaging with you further if you'd done or commented on pretty much anything else this game but you really haven't so my sympathy is pretty low.

If you want to find scum you'll read what I'm saying. If you don't you'll keep complaining about it.

[Thestatusquo]

If theres one thing that annoys me in games of mafia its people who are like oh I disagree about a thing but by the way I haven't actually really read the thing.

It's a scum tactic and if you're town its just incredibly annoying. Do your homework.

[Thestatusquo]

Though if I think of the motivation behind what you're doing the thing that feels most likely to me is an attempt to pocket black, so that's an interesting thing to think about wrt her alignment at least.

[Thestatusquo]

I think I'm letting this game get to me too much emotionally but it just annoys me SO MUCH when people don't even take the time to engage with something, then complain about it while shading it at the same time.

I'm gunna take a break from the thread for a bit see y'all later.

[Thestatusquo]

Drixx out of curiosity what are you trying to accomplish?

I know that std is trying to accomplish. He's trying to annoy you, and he's succeeding.

But your motives in this little exchange are a mystery to me. I don't think you actually believe you're going to get more out of std than this.

[Thestatusquo]

I've played with std way too many times to think this is alignment indicative for him. In fact I've scum read him before for explaining himself.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm interested because you described your posting style earlier as like...pretty calculated. Every post you make has a purpose, or whatever you said.

And I guess I can see the purpose you're describing here as one you might legitimately have.

But if that is indeed your purpose I don't think it's going to work.

I also think you're being a bit uncharitable because I think STD has explained himself wrt his read on you. You don't find that explanation satisfactory I understand but it seems like you're trying to map a playstyle onto STD that he simply does not have and in doing so you're talking past him in a way that doesn't seem likely to gain information about his alignment.

I guess I think its more likely than not that you are genuine in what you're doing right now but if you are I think you'd be better served finding a different tree to bark up. Or at least buy a ladder.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm sorry for being angry earlier. I was in a bad news because the knicks and devils were both getting crushed and coming in and feeling like I was being ignored and disrespected at the same time really set me off.

Blue the most succinct version of my issues with blacks play can be found in the following quote:

I don't feel like you're trying to solve the game. I feel like you're focusing in neat little spots and ignoring wide swaths of the game in order to do it. I feel like you're playing a reactionary game where you pick spots where it feels safe for you to jump in and interact and not taking sides on important parts of the discussion.

I think your titus case felt fake. I think that your progression and follow up was bad. I think there was no real conviction behind it in the first place which is incongruous with how you presented it at the time. I get the impression that if other people had jumped on you would have kept voting it. I think your vote on drixx could be distancing because it doesn't feel super well explained to me. I don't like how you used it to jump off titus because it feels convenient. Your original attack on titus felt like omgus to begin with.

I feel like you've only commented on important parts of the game when I've pressed you (i.e. dragon vs. feysal i.e. all of firebringers ISO. I.e. pink ball) and in those spots your answers have been fence sitty and non-committal.

[Thestatusquo]

*in a bad mood

[Thestatusquo]

Titus
DragonEater70
Dunnstral
Save The Dragons
Firebringer

BlueSnakelet
Thestatusquo
Black
kuribo

Feysal

Pink Ball
GuyInFreezer
Drixx

Frozen Angel

Pink Ball is Bella's scumread that she has repeated a few times, I'm null on him

I'm going to put quite a lot of effort into getting what I feel is an accurate read on Feysal at some point but that point is not now

pretty safe.

[Thestatusquo]

Okay, I should also get to this.

...missing from all of your commentary on Dragon and Dunn is an actual thought process about motivation.

About Dunnstral, I have explained what I believed the town motivation behind his questions was, as part of that Firebringer case. I believe Dunnstral wanted to know if Firebringer was unhappy because he had missed or misunderstood how the amnesiac mechanic worked, and he could get a different role tomorrow. That would have been a town tell. And questioning DragonEater for his comment about people townreading him was also fair, as that is a scum concern.

As for Dragon, I may not have been explicit, but I suspect the motivation behind him being so eager to please is that he wants to avoid people scumreading him. But when it comes to newbie scum, motivation may not even be a factor. I was really awkward and obvious when I was new, not because I wanted to be, but because I did not know any better and could not help myself.

So now we get some sort of explanation for why this is scum Dragon and not town Dragon but we've changed how we're describing him. Now he's not angry, he's nervous. We would have expected him to join in on the joke. Never mind the goal post shifting but [citation needed].

Can you provide me with examples of Dragon "joining in on the joke for a laugh" instead of finding it scummy?

Not moving the goal posts, Dragon had simply posted more. What does being nervous even look like? It can manifest in various ways, like aggression that feels out of place, or sarcasm (243 and 492), being indecisive (changing his opinion on Firebringer vs Dunnstral several times), and just not having the confidence to make his own pushes. I have not seen him do really anything on his own initiative. He has even admitted that his playstyle this game is different.

As for an example, easy.

Spoiler:

So now you are alt-hunting? Pretty scummy if you ask me!

However, that slip about wrong PT clearly confirms you are masons with Klickwork.

UNVOTE: Furtive

But I am willing to bet I will vote him again in the next 24 hours.

Pedit: I don't need to wait 24 hours. Furtive caused Black to lose, that's reason enough to vote!

VOTE: Furtive

It was mentioned before, but DragonEater and IceDragon are the same person.

More to the point this read is now extremely stale. A whole ton of stuff has happened since then and you're still on something DragonEater did on like the first post of the game. If you actually had a sincere scum read on him why have you not commented on the stuff he's posted and done since? Has it changed your read?

I have commented on it. And my read has indeed changed. I started out feeling there was something off about his play, but that did not become a real scum read until he joined me in voting Firebringer. That made me feel dirty.

Can you provide me previous examples of scum, especially new scum, doing what you're claiming Dragon is doing? You're making it sound like this is something scum do all the time and that has simply not been my experience.

Okay, when I read this I was not sure if you were trolling me. No, I don't have examples of this, and it would be a complete waste of my time to go looking. What would other newbies doing it even have to do with Dragon? What I'm trying to say is that new players can be incredibly awkward and unpredictable, but they grow out of it. We might be witnessing DragonEater's first scum game ever, and he had the singular misfortune of having it happen in Team Mafia and feeling completely out of his depth. His play is different here, and him being scum is the simplest explanation for that.

You still seem caught up on things that happened 20 pages ago and are ignoring anything that has happened since except for discussion of those things.

You know, I thought you were against having more noise in the thread.

I have for example been passively following the thing between Titus and Black, but nothing seems to be coming out from it, although my earlier town read on Black has since faded. I see puffs of smoke, but no fire. It seems to be about meta, and what could I contribute to that that would be of any value? My experience with Titus is years old, and I have none whatsoever with Black. I don't think it is worth my time to get involved in that yet, I am perfectly content leaving that for later.

Though speaking of Titus, I don't think I've seen her mention DragonEater at all since the start of the game, and I would like to hear her take.

I have my suspicions of you too, not least because you have been defending what has become my top scum read for reasons I don't understand. But perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps you are town, and want me to commit to stances for associative tells later, I get that. But since I know I am town, I don't share that motivation. If or when I die, no one is going to care to remember what my day one reads were. However, if I laser focus on one or two top suspects, people might remember that, and I might still have a positive influence after I'm dead.

But fine, if you really want to know, I can tell you where I am with my reads.

I have seen some posts from you that I liked and some I did not, foremost of them how you gave DragonEater a pass far too easily. I also wanted to like your theory post 517, but I can't help thinking if that was why you posted it? We're not playing a newbie game here. Also, while it was only minor, your post 524 caught my attention. If I were to ask that question as town, I might not even include SvS as an option, because I would know what I was. But you did, which means you were thinking about it.

I have a weak suspicion of Klick. I've played at least one game with him which I remember well, where he was scum. He gave out reads that were very light on reasons, including one town read on a partner, and it was that association tell that got his slot executed. The case he posted on Frozen Angel is also plausible coming from town, but I can't quite shake the feeling it might have been a good scum push.

Tied to the above, Frozen Angel is my strongest town read. Her thoughts align with mine to such a degree that I can't believe they would not be coming from the same place. Even if we're wrong about DragonEater, should she outlive me, remember I said this.

Firebringer is probable town. I was already leaning that way when I posted my rephrased questions to him, but to solidify the read I still wanted to hear his answers, and I accept them.

Dunnstral remains a town read, joined by Pink Ball and Kuribo. Lean town on Black. Remaining players are null. Titus stands out in this group for having posted a lot, but I don't know what to make of it.

I don't have time for a full response right now because I'm mobile posting while working but i have read this and wanted to say i believe you believe what you're saying in this post even if i disagree with a lot of it.

[Thestatusquo]

I owe kuribo a response too.

[Thestatusquo]

Klicks response to me is also weird because i think it actually is a Hallmark of scum to have too many town reads.

[Thestatusquo]

@Shea, @Titus - both of you seem hungry for wagons and both of you scumread me. Why have neither of you voted for me yet?

I am literally voting you.

[Thestatusquo]

I think FA has done a lot of busy work with no conclusion.

[Thestatusquo]

I liked your fey iso dive though.

[Thestatusquo]

Klick do you think you're the kind of scum player who struggles to find town reads or struggles to find scum reads, generally speaking?

Your offhand response to me is really sticking in my brain.

[Thestatusquo]

The thing is that is exactly why I said your read list felt safe to me.

You have a lot of people in the town bin and a few people in the scum bin who other people have put in the work to scum read already. It didn't seem like you were interested in breaking new ground at all and it felt like you weren't trying to ruffle any feathers.

[Thestatusquo]

Sounds like you're saying thats part of your town game though, if I'm to take the self meta i asked for at face value.

[Thestatusquo]

I think FA has done a lot of busy work with no conclusion.

Also I am actually offended by this. from town or scum you. each of those ise reads took like 30 min to 1 hour

and its obvious you never read any of them before dropping this judgement cause literally 1/3rd of those posts is pure conclusions and evalutions if not more and its so out there for people to see that I cant in any universe believe anyone who read them would ever dare to say something so BS like this about them

This is why I used the term busy work.

Like my issue isn't that I think you didn't put work into them, my issue is I don't see you going anywhere with them.

Missing from all your posts for me is any sense of what you actually want to do today or any indication that you want to push someone. Its like you did the ISO dive, came up with some thoughts about some slots, and then came in here asking for town cred instead of using those reads to try to get scum limmed.

I get you're under pressure and that might be why but it would help me a lot to see town you if you could actually push things instead of this approach of just presenting some data and then moving right on to defending yourself.

the fact that the only thing I think I've seen you want this game is a DE lim and I think DE is town doesn't make me feel townie thoughts about you either.

[Thestatusquo]

The emotion seems real tbh.

[Thestatusquo]

the reason for the wagon on me is cause klick linked something from this game to a multiball game we played together (in which I was actually also scumhunting) saying why am I asking too many questions or how I scum hunt

You wait until you don't like what I'm saying to mention the multiball thing. Did it only just occur to you that that game was multiball, or have you been saving that fact for later?

This feels slightly disingenuous.

Pretty sure FA mentioned that pretty early on.

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

Dunn, I literally just said that. You think town!LLD uses her precious words to restate what I already said?

VOTE: Dunn

@Klick, Thanks for the response. Will try to review in an hour

yeah i actually like klick trying to meta me with that. seems like he really tried for finding references for what he was saying actually tbh even though that is not me copying anyone or dropping tones of questions. It actually is me trying to not jump to a conclusion and see how stuff are in a scum game. as town though I also analyze and drop questions and I don't make conclusions till I have em. have you ever seen me play in a game as town?

btw for the record in that other game I was not trying to discredit you. I was trying to show that I'm analyzing what you said (which I would have same analysis as town still reading that post) and to drop questions that would fake how I actually try and find things that have a conflict with a town perspective but also for real analyzing/questioning you. Your VCA conclusion there felt like it could be coming from an informed perspective there. that game was multiball and I genuinely was scum hunting.

@titus where did you go after an hour. why saying nothing about klick homework?

[Thestatusquo]

The emotion seems real tbh.

I agree but do you think it's frustrated townie real or caught scum real?

This is such a lame post

what do you think yourself? why you're poking the water before jumping to a read yourself and committing to it?

You said you didn't read the iso so you don't know why I'm even angry at the thestatusqueue for making that comment. So why are you asking this completely random question instead of checking for the premises and making your own read?

It's not random. I want to know what Shea thinks. I'm having a hard time reading the situation so it makes sense for me to ask this

I mean if it felt like caught scum to me I wouldn't have said anything and just voted them.

[Thestatusquo]

Part of the distinction to me is that caught scum emotion DOES frequently feel fake to me. In the sense that they know they are bad so everything is filtered through that lens. Even if a scum player is legitimately frustrated by being "caught for the wrong reasons" as people say there is always that in the background.

For what its worth I tend to think caught for the wrong reasons is kind of a bullshit thing in general.

In my experience town gets just as mad if not more mad when they are being scum read for reasons they think are illegitimate than scum does and in fact it happens more often because town is way more prone to think people scum reading them is illegitimate because they know they're town.

[Thestatusquo]

Part of the distinction to me is that caught scum emotion DOES frequently feel fake to me. In the sense that they know they are bad so everything is filtered through that lens. Even if a scum player is legitimately frustrated by being "caught for the wrong reasons" as people say there is always that in the background.

For what its worth I tend to think caught for the wrong reasons is kind of a bullshit thing in general.

In my experience town gets just as mad if not more mad when they are being scum read for reasons they think are illegitimate than scum does and in fact it happens more often because town is way more prone to think people scum reading them is illegitimate because they know they're town.

More generalities
These things can be applied to the person you're talking about

Ok but I'm trying to explain why I feel this way about a specific person? And why I think the emotion feeling real to me matters? Things that are generally true are not universally true that is a true statement but I do not think I am making that claim but generally trying to explain my background experience that is making me react in a certain way. Mafia is probabilistic and in fact you know this.

So what the fuck is this shit?

[Thestatusquo]

Like what you are saying about what I'm saying can literally apply to anything, Klick. I could claim you saying the posting feels "soulless" is a generality in much the same way you are saying that I am saying that I think the emotion feels real to me and why that matters.

You keep tacitly acknowledging this when you say things like "this correlates or doesn't correlate to alignment."

I'm doing literally the exact same thing and trying to look at things that I think correlate to alignment and then explaining why I think they do.

You are then dismissing them in a way that feels incredibly hand waivy and shade-ing and I have a hard time figuring out why town you would do that? Do you not want me to correctly read FA for some reason?

[Thestatusquo]

Part of the distinction to me is that caught scum emotion DOES frequently feel fake to me. In the sense that they know they are bad so everything is filtered through that lens. Even if a scum player is legitimately frustrated by being "caught for the wrong reasons" as people say there is always that in the background.

For what its worth I tend to think caught for the wrong reasons is kind of a bullshit thing in general.

In my experience town gets just as mad if not more mad when they are being scum read for reasons they think are illegitimate than scum does and in fact it happens more often because town is way more prone to think people scum reading them is illegitimate because they know they're town.

More generalities
These things can be applied to the person you're talking about

Ok but I'm trying to explain why I feel this way about a specific person? And why I think the emotion feeling real to me matters? Things that are generally true are not universally true that is a true statement but I do not think I am making that claim but generally trying to explain my background experience that is making me react in a certain way. Mafia is probabilistic and in fact you know this.

So what the fuck is this shit?

I think Mafia CAN be probabilistic but it's much more effective to avoid most probabilistic conclusions and basically treat it as non-probabilistic

This is probably why I often get lots of townreads and few scumreads!

Anyway that's not the point

What about FA makes you think the emotions being real is relevant to her alignment? Because I came to basically the opposite conclusion

Because I think town is generally way more likely to react like this and feel real while doing so than scum is and I don't have any specific experience with FA to suggest they are a special case. You can call that a generality but that is how I scum hunt.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not ruling out FA scum, I am presenting a data point.

You feel a lot more certain than I feel like I can possibly be.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not ruling out FA scum, I am presenting a data point.

You feel a lot more certain than I feel like I can possibly be.

What makes you think I'm certain?
(I'm not, far from it)

Because of how you're engaging with me, mostly.

It feels like you want to discredit the whole way I approach scum hunting as a means for shutting down discussion on why FA feels town to me.

Like you've now typed a lot of words on this and they basically boil down to (for me) "my conclusions are better than yours."

Which seems like a really strange way to have a discussion on a difference of opinion.

[Thestatusquo]

Part of the distinction to me is that caught scum emotion DOES frequently feel fake to me. In the sense that they know they are bad so everything is filtered through that lens. Even if a scum player is legitimately frustrated by being "caught for the wrong reasons" as people say there is always that in the background.

For what its worth I tend to think caught for the wrong reasons is kind of a bullshit thing in general.

In my experience town gets just as mad if not more mad when they are being scum read for reasons they think are illegitimate than scum does and in fact it happens more often because town is way more prone to think people scum reading them is illegitimate because they know they're town.

I always got around this by just working myself into a raw frenzy for real. That's why I hated when people would accuse me of "fake rage." Fake rage isn't a thing that usually happens, and it was never artificial with me. My *motivations* were sometimes illegitimate, but I would definitely crank myself up to eleven until I got to the point I couldn't return. Like I'd be full of shit about something, hand shaking while I screamed at somebody, then I'd be in the scum PT telling Katsuki how I was so pissed off I just wanted to replace out. Like, it didn't matter that the *initial* reason for the irritation wasn't town, I'd open up the floodgate and it'd just be thunderdome from there. And then there'd be the other times where it was personal fury instead of "lol kuribo mad" anger, which as mastina once pointed out were two very different things, the latter being cartoonish and comical, the former being an ugly toxic thing that made everyone uncomfortable.

Ah, I realize I'm probably an outlier in that.

I think you're better at rage than most people.