Mini 2332: A Mid-scummer Nights Dream II | GG

[Sunflower]

wouldn't recommend reading prism on tone

[Sunflower]

sighhh i don't like knowing that everyone can read my posts but i can't see their responses

i am feeling stage fright

[Sunflower]

wouldn't recommend reading prism on tone

I've never played with them before so I'll just take your word for it

I wonder if scum's actions will be influenced by what we say here

~B

you can take her word for it lol, she yelled at me just for having a read that felt like it even came close to being off tone

and almost definitely but i think that it's probably still better to say things anyway idk

[Sunflower]

sorry not yelled. chastised and was profoundly disappointed

[Sunflower]

oh relatedly i forgot to elaborate that aspect of things also. i thought that prism would know how i emotionally would respond to me making 624 and having lots of fun etc and making a read and then being told unspecifically that it was awful. it wouldn't make me intellectually and rationally revisit it, it would just make me lose confidence and feel dejected, which is more or less what happened

i think that her taking advantage of that to shut down the read is a tool that she would probably pull out as scum. and i thought at the time that if she was doing it as town then she was trying to gauge reaction and that kind of annoyed me and so i voted her partially out of spite for that and partially out of "no that isn't going to work". although it did lol

her read on the situation as me "thinking i passed the vibe check" is extremely wrong bc i thought that if there was a vibe check i was throwing it out the window and intentionally rejecting it. i didn't think her unvote was particularly meaningful

[Sunflower]

hello, it is I, jupiter!!!

[Sunflower]

sighhh i don't like knowing that everyone can read my posts but i can't see their responses

i am feeling stage fright

i feel like a performer like i've been shoved up here and told to dance and i will not object but i sure am bad at dancing

[Sunflower]

sigh. sorry. this actually needs to stop happening

[Sunflower]

wait what

[Sunflower]

i didn't get to dn1 in my meta read so ill take a look at that one in a bit

[Sunflower]

whys silver ravens so high

[Sunflower]

wrong emoji :Skull:
i'm honestly not much of a setup maniac in fact i am very dumb when it comes to mechanics (see: me in open 894) i think public in-thread neighborhood is a weird thing to give scum so tbh you're probably town here?

[Sunflower]

MY PAGETOP

[Sunflower]

aughh

[Sunflower]

am i the only person here who thinks gimli is semi-towny lmfao

[Sunflower]

did you forget your emoji lol

[Sunflower]

am i the only person here who thinks gimli is semi-towny lmfao

sighhhhh

did you read the isos i linked you earlier

[Sunflower]

i was literally oblivious that we were pushing gimli until i saw the eod votecount and then fire told me like literally an hour or so ago that we were sussing gimli. i dunno how this happened tbh and maybe i shouldnt be saying this but like i really didn't read many of the posts fire made. he was just like "i wrote a post" and iw as like "ok" and i was too lazy to read through thread. the entire sheep phase felt like a fucking fever dream to me i remember NOTHING

pedit where did u link the isos

[Sunflower]

sheep phase was literally hell for a hyperposter like me like I WAS NOT ABLE TO DO ANYTHIGN EVER

[Sunflower]

i was literally oblivious that we were pushing gimli until i saw the eod votecount and then fire told me like literally an hour or so ago that we were sussing gimli. i dunno how this happened tbh and maybe i shouldnt be saying this but like i really didn't read many of the posts fire made. he was just like "i wrote a post" and iw as like "ok" and i was too lazy to read through thread. the entire sheep phase felt like a fucking fever dream to me i remember NOTHING

pedit where did u link the isos

in discord lol

[Sunflower]

i was literally oblivious that we were pushing gimli until i saw the eod votecount and then fire told me like literally an hour or so ago that we were sussing gimli. i dunno how this happened tbh and maybe i shouldnt be saying this but like i really didn't read many of the posts fire made. he was just like "i wrote a post" and iw as like "ok" and i was too lazy to read through thread. the entire sheep phase felt like a fucking fever dream to me i remember NOTHING

pedit where did u link the isos

in discord lol

i dont have access to discord rn

[Sunflower]

am i the only person here who thinks gimli is semi-towny lmfao

I'm curious why you townread him

~B

idk he just feels like that to me

[Sunflower]

i feel like it always happens to me where i have this kind of vibe read on someone who i have a decent feel for and is posting relatively low content but i just trust that they're doing it in a town way. and then gradually over time it gets harder and harder to hold on to that townread as the game progresses and it starts to feel weaker relative to the rest of the content in the game

i remember it happening with cephrir in scarfolk. and with tris in coalition. they were both town and i ended up doubting that. i can kind of feel it happening here with ydra

but i think that's kind of a fundamentally flawed approach to the game. letting posts of incremental towniness stack up over time in your mind and eventually outweigh other reads is how you let scum who are good at posting a lot of towny posts win the game. they want you to feel like they deserve to be townread bc look at how much they've done compared to these other people. but that isn't really how it works. someone who was town once is still town later

[Sunflower]

im not very good at trusting myself tho

[Sunflower]

im glad you invited us to the inaugural party :>

[Sunflower]

pagetop!!

[Sunflower]

jk that was me

[Sunflower]

SHARE THE WHISKEY WOOO LET'S GOOOOO

[Sunflower]

i was literally telling jupiter the other day that i hoped we would start a trend of emoji hydra signing

i think it's aesthetic and also more clear at a glance

[Sunflower]

I also think you two picked like the perfect combo and the theme with the name is just *chefs kiss*

thank you i like it a lot as well :>

[Sunflower]

pagetop!!

NO HOMO BUT

[Sunflower]

Thank you for being our first guests and for taking your shoes off before you came in

I kinda want to recruit Aureal tomorrow. Not only is she probably town but I think she'll keep the vibes mellow ya know

~B

woah it changes every night???

[Sunflower]

I also think you two picked like the perfect combo and the theme with the name is just *chefs kiss*

THANK YOUUU

[Sunflower]

ooh wait

[Sunflower]

meow

[Sunflower]

nya :3

[Sunflower]

thank you :3

[Sunflower]

WAIT DOES THIS MEAN I CAN TALK ABOUT VIDEO GAMES NOW AND NO ONE CAN STOP ME

[Sunflower]

heyyy sooo uhhhhh *tries to lean against wall* *misses the wall* anyone uhhh ever heard of the hit game your turn to die

[Sunflower]

have yall ever uhhh ever played the hit game Slay The Princess because it is a banger game and i dont know how to talk to people so naturally this game is really fucking hard for me

[Sunflower]

ummm anyone hear of the announcement for pokemon legends ZA isn't that soooo cool

[Sunflower]

does this image wiork

[Sunflower]

BOOOO BOOOO BOO TOMATO TOMATO TOMATO

[Sunflower]

[Sunflower]

how i feel this entire game i am like gin in da cage im like a sad little bird waiting to be freed and i am also facing certain death (aka beign restricted from postined)

[Sunflower]

heyyy sooo uhhhhh *tries to lean against wall* *misses the wall* anyone uhhh ever heard of the hit game your turn to die

[Sunflower]

heyyy sooo uhhhhh *tries to lean against wall* *misses the wall* anyone uhhh ever heard of the hit game your turn to die

SOOOOO TRUE OF YOU

[Sunflower]

my mood rn

[Sunflower]

ITS A GIF WHY ISNT IT GIFING

[Sunflower]

hey how do you guys pronounce gif

[Sunflower]

the gif not giffing and his mouth staying closed symbolically represents how you were silenced in sheep phase

[Sunflower]

me personally i say gif with a hard G because then sentences like the one two posts above sound really strange

[Sunflower]

the gif not giffing and his mouth staying closed symbolically represents how you were silenced in sheep phase

based and townpilled

[Sunflower]

still have no idea what townpilled means btw

[Sunflower]

hey how do you guys pronounce gif

i pronounce it gif

[Sunflower]

hey how do you guys pronounce gif

i pronounce it gif

based

[Sunflower]

i feel like my brain's stuck in pst

[Sunflower]

it feels like eleven pm which is really unfortunate because it is 2 am where i am

[Sunflower]

sigh i have four tests tomorrow

[Sunflower]

anyone uhhh know any good rituals to get 100%s

[Sunflower]

THE PARTY NEVER STOPS

[Sunflower]

Thank you for being our first guests and for taking your shoes off before you came in

I kinda want to recruit Aureal tomorrow. Not only is she probably town but I think she'll keep the vibes mellow ya know

~B

woah it changes every night???

We add a new member every night

THAT'S SO COOL

[Sunflower]

also @black: isn't this exactly like gimli in the first death note? you know, the one you wanted to kill?

you have the exact meta to townlock me in this game

This was bothering me so I decided to look at both Death Note games again

It's weird because this Gimli feels more like DN2 scum!Gimli in actions, but he feels more like DN1 town!Gimli in behavior and thread control. He was super vocal and very much a town leader in DN1 which aligns with his behavior here. DN2 has all the Gimli actions we've seen here: early pocketing, constant talks about his town block, definitive reads. In DN1 Gimli was more reluctant to townread people and they didn't come early and often, and when he did townread them it still felt like he was trying to solve them. He didn't just dump a bunch of people into a town pile to disregard. In general it just feels like Gimli was more inquisitive in DN1 and his questions all had the purpose of solving someone or the game. In this game and in DN2 it feels like his questions lack depth and purpose or something

I admitted to Drew last night that I may be confbiased here so if anyone would like to look over the DN games and share what they think that might be a good idea

~B

ok i read the first page of his iso in DN1 and i generally agree with your thoughts on it

this was more or less the game that i expected to exist but hadn't found yet -- the more confident end of the town!gimli range, and him playing more as a leader

but i still think there's differences to here and some of them are what you pointed out

this post comes close to clearing a bunch of people early and solving based on that, but the tone is fairly different and less brash, and also he's only clearing them off being kira, not off being scum entirely. these aren't really townreads and that's evidenced by this later

this post does have a similar feel to the way he throws in little "don't worry i townread you" type comments here. but this is pretty much the only example of that, it's a lot more consistently present here

his posts overall are just so much more solving centric though, questioning people, evaluating, digging into things

his read flips also tend to come with more hesitancy, like here, where it feels like he's struggling to overcome the bias of his previous frame of mind. in this game there's very little of that, he just flips like a light switch when he wants to change position and suddenly his read is different

also worth mentioning his confident push on kawaiikame, since i think that level of confidence is probably what he'd be trying to imitate here as scum, but i don't really think it's that relevant since it hasn't manifested in that kind of confident push of a scumread here. his tunnel on catgirls is pretty limp by comparison. instead his confidence here feels mostly for show. in DN1 he also went through really noticeable waves where his confidence would rise and then decrease

idk i don't think meta is infallible or even should be the primary basis for a case or anything but i think it's also important to investigate whether the notion that "gimli is playing exactly like his town self and not like his scum self" should be given any weight, and i haven't really seen much evidence to indicate that it's true, even in the game that comes the closest to being similar to this one

and again i just think the actions that he's taken in this game are playing more to a scum win condition than a town one

[Sunflower]

not the way the site crashed while i was trying to log in

[Sunflower]

gamesolving in this thread feels like shittalking people to their face and not letting them respond

[Sunflower]

that sounds ominous

[Sunflower]

everyone besides us???

[Sunflower]

its catgirl and prism + 1

n1 was hilariously poor, the 4 of you put almost no solve in

I'm amazed how many hours fireisred managed to metadive me and still get the wrong conclusion

spending three real life days being tunneled without answering was so annoying

ok cry about it im allowed to do what i want during the three-day long night phase and i shouldn’t have to be solving during the night phase -

[Sunflower]

gimli you low key piss em off like idk im more willing to treat fire’s read on you with a grain of salt because meta is not always accurate but like dude you’re just
Ugh

[Sunflower]

its catgirl and prism + 1

n1 was hilariously poor, the 4 of you put almost no solve in

I'm amazed how many hours fireisred managed to metadive me and still get the wrong conclusion

spending three real life days being tunneled without answering was so annoying

ok cry about it im allowed to do what i want during the three-day long night phase and i shouldn’t have to be solving during the night phase -

brilliant

can we make a deal that if we flip one of the people I'm pretty sure are scum (catgirl, prism) then von payne will add me to night phase so I can put proper work in? it'll be last last week of being able to play some mafia and I'd like to try solving this

what happens if either of them flips town
idk if fire still scumreads prism btw, speaking of prism, but personally ive re-evaled prism a bit and I think the way she reacted to our scum read on her comes off as towny

[Sunflower]

ALSO DREWS ROLE IS SO FUCKING COOL LIKE??? I HOPE THEY DINT GET NIGHTKILLED ID BE SAD

[Sunflower]

gimli you low key piss em off like idk im more willing to treat fire’s read on you with a grain of salt because meta is not always accurate but like dude you’re just
Ugh

listen, alisae is right

you had IMMENSE power

what you did with it was not great, I'm sorry

now you can flip me cause I piss you off or you can flip scum instead idk you do you

literally never said I was gonna push you but okay, interesting that you took my statement that way. It’s not Gimli vs. the world here

and yeah I had immense power but after being prevented from posting over the course of an entire day phase and basically barred from responding to AD’s shitty case on me I really did not want to have to solve- I post things as I think of them and if I can’t do that it ruins the vibes I have. Day one was horrible for me and I shouldn’t have been obligated to do all of the things I /should’ve/ been able to do day one during night one.
Btw just because you didn’t like fire’s case didn’t mean he did nothing at all lol

[Sunflower]

Before anything let's try to look for who DE hid behind shall we? If klick that would suck. I'm going to iso now.

Ten bucks it’s Gimli

[Sunflower]

(Since that was DE’s only lockdown)

[Sunflower]

Locktown

[Sunflower]

if I were dragon I’d hide behind my top tr tbh

[Sunflower]

Pagetop

[Sunflower]

you really shouldn't, I wouldn't.

In the meantime I have two questions for Sunflower and Catgirl.

For Catgirls.

I would really like to know what you guys have been thinking about Aureal, as you voted there and feels like there's something on the tip of your tongue but have yet to say it.

For Jupiter: what made you put/declare Aureal a scum read in 830?

gut probably

[Sunflower]

i dont know where that post is there probably was a reason but i don’t remember

[Sunflower]

so does that uh
make gimli town????

Oh yeah speaking of Prism though

VOTE: Sunflower

VOTE: Sunflowers

VOTE: No elim

Was this ever actually explained? Because this was hella weird.

hi this is jupiter
tl;dr: we posted the post, prism didnt like the scumread, prism voted us, we voted back, prism unvoted and later said they felt irritable at the time and we ended up beefint it out a bit during twilight becuase something something fire passing it off as a vibe check?

[Sunflower]

also i'm not gonna be here at deadline- will still be at school

[Sunflower]

ydrasse why do u scumread me

[Sunflower]

I do wanna talk to fireisred at some point

he's not here today
he's doing normal person things like birdwatching with friends instead of fueling his hopeless mafia addiction

[Sunflower]

I do wanna talk to fireisred at some point

he's not here today
he's doing normal person things like birdwatching with friends instead of fueling his hopeless mafia addiction

lets birdwatch from here!

let me show you an amazing bird

WHAT????? ACTUALY BABY???? WHICH SPECIES IS THAT

[Sunflower]

THEYRE SO CUTE. SCHJDSHJDSH

[Sunflower]

fuckkkk they are so baby

[Sunflower]

blasts you. this is the mourning dove and they have no thoughts in their head

[Sunflower]

look at its eyes look at that mindless stare

[Sunflower]

not my own photo ofc its from the interwebs idk who the original photographer was

[Sunflower]

sorry for being mean to you earlier btw you're rather cool

[Sunflower]

HES SO CUTE
and yeah glad that's cleared up

[Sunflower]

gut is that parts is female armor

[Sunflower]

i did say that i thought von payne's role is really weird to give to scum because like what's the purpose

[Sunflower]

gimli town, may revisit

[Sunflower]

In any case if Jupiter's memory seems good enough to recall the details of how the vote in 627 came to be

perhaps the reason why i remember exactly what happened was because fire and i had extensive conversation that night about our post and then prism????? i think there's a very logical flow between "i'm going back to dms to check" - > long explanation of what happened
ur actually full of shit

[Sunflower]

maybe the reason why i remember a lot about prism is perhaps because fire talked to me about her and about her style of play while we were formulating our read on her.... and that's why i know what happened about the vote? and what we felt about prism? and perhaps, the reason why I had forgotten why we were voting gimli was because fire kept me in the dark on his reasons behind that push, which is why i said i in 624 that i was mostly leaving stuff on gimli up to fire?

[Sunflower]

bonus there's a mention of Fire's readlist at the time of the vote on Prism)

that was my own readlist but ok

[Sunflower]

there really is absolutely no consistency with Jupiter's reads

cry about it

[Sunflower]

In any case if Jupiter's memory seems good enough to recall the details of how the vote in 627 came to be

perhaps the reason why i remember exactly what happened was because fire and i had extensive conversation that night about our post and then prism????? i think there's a very logical flow between "i'm going back to dms to check" - > long explanation of what happened
ur actually full of shit

Sure you're not projecting here?

pedit: if that was your readlist then why did you forget scumreading Gimli.

because I literally did not know what post you were talking about at the time, when you asked me? Forgetting our scumread on gimli happened before that point btw lol

[Sunflower]

I'm really not sure what timeline you're operating on here

[Sunflower]

You ask me, dropping a random number, hey why is aureal/gimli partnered here, I say I don't know the post but probably gut

[Sunflower]

i'm not gonna go back 300 posts just to answer a question about something that probably doesnt matter because i dropped a read that i felt at the time liek I clearly dont think gimli and aureal are partnered anymore???

[Sunflower]

I thought the vote clarification from Jupiter was +town because it was completely unnecessary.

it's neccesary to me ok.

[Sunflower]

also @AD: consider yourself a double voter. I'll sheep you for the rest of game. you wanna flip sunflower, lets flip sunflower. clearly you have the better grasp of this thing.

do you even scumread me

[Sunflower]

what makes you think I give a shit about prism's opinion of me

[Sunflower]

like i'm not gonna write a post knowing little to nothing about prisms play just for the purpose of making them townread me

[Sunflower]

oh man I missed doing this

[Sunflower]

bonus there's a mention of Fire's readlist at the time of the vote on Prism)

that was my own readlist but ok

elaboration on this. iirc at the time i was scrolling through discord and found an old conversation between me and fire regarding gimli's play and a bit about gimlis meta and there probably was a reason to involve aurealinthe solve i really don't remember but i just found the gimli meta conversation so.

[Sunflower]

I guess that's really annoying to you and I sympathize with it but also I had to endure n1.

well i also had to endure the entirety of day one so sucks to suck i guess?????

[Sunflower]

Should I be appeased when you say gut again?

unfortunately for you it's literally just a gut read

[Sunflower]

this is honestly a bit comedic

[Sunflower]

I thought the vote clarification from Jupiter was +town because it was completely unnecessary.

it's neccesary to me ok.

It made sense from the concern of someone who wants to be fully transparent, such as a town player.

For Dan, I considered the retconning but didn't find it too likely. It's difficult to pinpoint why, but the answer is probably in the delivery. Jupiter felt legitimately self-conscious that they would get grilled for voting. It's not easy to make an outlandish retcon and invite sharp criticism when I'm already on a highly critical tear. Realizing I might be town and that it's important to let me see the full picture is a better motivator.

based

[Sunflower]

also like bruh i didnt want fire to get in trouble for something i told him to do like ?! ur cool and all but you seemed upset at him n he didnt deserve that

[Sunflower]

its catgirl and prism + 1

n1 was hilariously poor, the 4 of you put almost no solve in

I'm amazed how many hours fireisred managed to metadive me and still get the wrong conclusion

spending three real life days being tunneled without answering was so annoying

its kinda funny that you both wanted me to solve more in the echo chamber but also were annoyed that you were getting tunneled without being able to answer ???

like personally i do not find it very useful to solve without being able to engage with the thread as a whole and with the people im trying to sort. i think it's really easy to get confbiased and its also just not really how i work. that's why i was specifically focusing on the meta point bc that took the most time/research and i mostly just wanted to see if the idea that this was "100% town gimli" had any merit. which i think it conclusively doesn't

im not like lockset on you being scum (i had a brief moment of feeling very confident on it during twilight but that never really lasts for me) and i agree that it is both annoying and also fairly useless for me to be like just sitting there casing you overnight. id rather engage and do that during the day phase

[Sunflower]

Before anything let's try to look for who DE hid behind shall we? If klick that would suck. I'm going to iso now.

tone of this is weird

along with the general timeline of progression later

gut reaction is that it feels like someone who already knew what they were going to find

i think it's relatively likely that aureal is scum and scum already were aware of DE's crumb on checking aureal and wanted to be the first to call it out but wanted the discovery of it to appear natural

[Sunflower]

klick is kind of a weird nightkill to me actually. i didn't think he was that towny and was finding him fitting in to a lot of my solves. i thought DE was the nk before i read the roles more closely

if anyone else is responsible for klick death they should claim that (? i think? im bad at mech but that seems fairly straightforwardly correct)

[Sunflower]

oh god thanks AD

that's... that's good, I think he actually did go ahead and hide behind aureal

klick kill also makes the most sense when aureal is scum

so we're back to aureal/catgirl/? which I think should be prism anyway

okay I can be in peace with this game now

and ik i just kind of olive branched to gimli sorry gimli but tonally i also don't really like this reaction. i think that holds for any combination of AD/aureal alignments

[Sunflower]

scum fearkilling the best townie in the game makes sense, especially if aureal is scum since klick was already onto her d1

+ if I'm right about chipotle then the kill just makes perfect sense

i love klick and his approach to the game but i don't think he's particularly close to the scariest townie here. there's a lot of louder/stronger voices that will drown him out and some of them have to be town

[Sunflower]

klick is also probably a lot easier to miselim than several other players even if his reads are correct

[Sunflower]

oh... my better half... he is back.... stares at you.... hi fire....

[Sunflower]

scum fearkilling the best townie in the game makes sense, especially if aureal is scum since klick was already onto her d1

+ if I'm right about chipotle then the kill just makes perfect sense

i love klick and his approach to the game but i don't think he's particularly close to the scariest townie here. there's a lot of louder/stronger voices that will drown him out and some of them have to be town

i forgot klick existed for a bit tbh

[Sunflower]

i am as ever too tired to do this Immediately in the moment but everytime i read a sunflower post i feel like i am confused by the route that they're going or like the conclusions they're making about stuff it doesn't feel natural. maybe in my head i have already flipped the slot as wolf and therefore am not giving them enough space to like be towny to my brain but i feel like the things that they care about and talk about really are not... good? productive?

like idk the klick comments just now seem off to me. i think maybe i am unhappy because there was a lot of meta talk and a lot of just random talk too when there could have been a lot more actually going on in the night neighborhood but it was kind of squandered. i think me feeling like it was wolf theatre probably stems from it not doing a lot for me even though i don't really have a basis of what would be "enough" atm.

what do you think we should care about/how should we have used the hood differently

i am kind of confused i guess by people thinking the hood is powerful bc i think hoods are generally bad and often harmful to solve extensively in personally

[Sunflower]

productive?

augh *takes damage*
tbf it doesn't always have to be this constant fucking grind like i dont like the insinuation that lack of productivity is inherently a bad thing in mafia games when we have Such Long Days

[Sunflower]

The one time I tried to read because I thought it was going to be interesting enough, I compulsively voted the slot out of sheer cringe and it was someone I townread.

hey wait a minute

[Sunflower]

we have like
so much time at night
and then we have such long days too

[Sunflower]

Hmmm I would not like to underestimate Jupiter, or if it was instruction from Fire.

if you're talking about the vote elaboration- how would've it been instruction from fire? he was gone the entire night

[Sunflower]

you have the luxury of the entire thread being forced to read about and consider the things you're saying and doing, i am aware it twas the weekend for a lot of it but i think there were better ways to use it

that being said never neighborhood me

yes and i talked about the things that i thought were most useful for people to read and consider

i don't really find empty posting into the void without being able to engage with people's responses to be very useful. i am kind of surprised that you think that i would

[Sunflower]

PAGETOP

[Sunflower]

fUCK.

[Sunflower]

Sunflower has produced a lot of words on Gimli but it doesn't quite pack the oomph they might think. Yes Gimli is typically a more cautious perhaps even less flighty player as town whose reads are detailed in paragraphs rather than sentences but that is insufficient alone to think he is playing in style so much differently here. There's a few accusations scattered over a few wall posts. Gimli playing positionally, Gimli buttering up townreads, Gimli too easily making townreads and reads in general being too fluid. All that is circumstantial evidence. I can maybe see this applied to Gimli's Catgirls read which has changed from Scum to town to scum again could create whiplash, but if we look at Gimli's attitude towards me and towards sunflower I don't think Sunflower does a good job addressing either or is purposely omitting detail they don't think is important. Sunflower jumps on Gimli for going along with Klick's reasoning for finding me town due to my dream thoughts. I agree that's not the strongest reasoning, I likely would have given the same opinions as scum, but that's only about 1/3 of the reason Gimli gave for reversing his opinion. More problematic is the inability to address Gimli's change of heart with regard to Sunflower themselves. As presented you might think Gimli only did so on a whim to bolster a narrow POE of scum candidates after finding the rest of the game towny. But more than just switching the read because "a few people started suspecting Sunflower's slot" Gimli was specific that he liked my case against them. So if Sunflower wanted to show that Gimli was only frivolously and fluidly changing his reads to serve a scum agenda it would behoove Sunflower to tear that case apart. They do not. The only times it has been addressed was by Jupiter who only attacked it on its weakest point regarding their use of "rancid vibes" in relation to Prism which was imo over the top but fair enough. The promise to come back to it by Jupiter was not fulfilled and I don't think Fire has ever even acknowledged it. Considering their vote was on me before Gimli ignoring it doubly does not make sense and makes me wonder if they are making a calculation to do so and not enter that mire (or perhaps they simply can't answer sufficiently well).

you are treating this like i am a lawyer trying to make a prosecution case or something and the implication seems to be that if the case is incomplete or unconvincing then i am scum

this is like a fundamentally flawed way to view the game, whether it's intentional or not

if i wanted to "tear gimli apart", yes, i could have done that

that is not my goal

i am trying to figure out gimli's alignment because i do not know what it is

[Sunflower]

The only times it has been addressed was by Jupiter who only attacked it on its weakest point regarding their use of "rancid vibes" in relation to Prism which was imo over the top but fair enough. The promise to come back to it by Jupiter was not fulfilled and I don't think Fire has ever even acknowledged it.

wait I didn't see this
ok 1: That was the only part about me
2: Idc

[Sunflower]

calling jupiter scum for having reads that jump around and not remembering things would be funny if it weren't really annoying

[Sunflower]

I forgot if Sun is pocketed enough by Alisae that I can just tell them to join us and they will. Let me test it.

Hey Sunflower, would you agree with our solve? Please?

yes of course 100% anything you say queen

jk idk let me finish catching up i dont know what your solve is

[Sunflower]

btw dan i think expecting me to respond to your entire case (most of which is about something fire did) is kind of strange - was gonna post this earlier but had to put my decive down

[Sunflower]

pagetop

[Sunflower]

I forgot if Sun is pocketed enough by Alisae that I can just tell them to join us and they will. Let me test it.

Hey Sunflower, would you agree with our solve? Please?

DAHLIA HAWTHORNE OMGG

[Sunflower]

SCREAMS

[Sunflower]

I forgot if Sun is pocketed enough by Alisae that I can just tell them to join us and they will. Let me test it.

Hey Sunflower, would you agree with our solve? Please?

DAHLIA HAWTHORNE OMGG

literally like ok i’m on board just because of the ace attorney gif

[Sunflower]

yeah I agree with this as well, talking shit about the scum NK is a bit nonsensical as it leads nowhere, as opposed to anything else e.g. reading klick's posts to take in the perspective of a townie who was likely to have >rand good reads in the game.

unless im an idiot which is always possible there's a mechanical chance that klick wasn't the nightkill (and i thought that seemed more likely at first, although i get now that it's a small chance) and i wanted to make sure that was resolved. that was my reason for bringing it up

[Sunflower]

calling jupiter scum for having reads that jump around and not remembering things would be funny if it weren't really annoying

oh…. i love you, my better half…., thank you so much

[Sunflower]

My point about the NK is more precise. It's not that I think it was bad. I think Sunflower is unlikely to favor that kill. fireisredsir's perspective is that a higher priority is nightkilling people you can't eliminate, not people with good reads. Klick was very votable and unlikely to overwhelmingly prove himself town on a dime, making him a low-priority kill.

I am well-known to have this viewpoint. I don't think this is as well-known for fire.

I don't know how I feel about these deep meta reads. I thought fire was relatively new here so it's kind of weird to me that you two are interacting as if you've been playing together for a decade or something. I was getting weird pings from it earlier when you were pushing on fire's allegedly bad read of you, and it's weird how you're turning it around again. All based on meta that the rest of us probably can't hope to comprehend. I thought for a bit that you two were distancing, then realized I'd made a mistake in my timeline of when your votes happened, but I'm revisiting that read now.

prism has modded two games where i was scum (and seen or been in others) and i talk a lot about my thought processes in scum pts, and she tends to follow along with such things closely

im also relatively familiar with the way that she likes to approach games although im not really that confident im able to read her with accuracy. i don't think her expectations for how i should be processing her are unreasonable or inaccurate, just the interpretation of what i was doing was off and assumed an invisible thought process was a nonexistant one

[Sunflower]

I forgot if Sun is pocketed enough by Alisae that I can just tell them to join us and they will. Let me test it.

Hey Sunflower, would you agree with our solve? Please?

DAHLIA HAWTHORNE OMGG

Greetings.

You're just as charming as my hydra partner said you were.

You're the love of my life

[Sunflower]

Fire, please address 671, my original case.

Jupiter, though ideally hydras can and should be aware of their other heads arguments and reads I certainly don't expect you to answer for fire at this point nor have I have I ever instructed you to as you claim

never said you told me to but what i’m saying is that most of your case is about fire, I just responded to the bit about me and I should t have to return to it after that

[Sunflower]

Fire, please address 671, my original case.

again im just not really very interested in picking through bad cases. town make bad cases all the time and i think that regardless of your alignment it's clear that you approach the game very differently and have different beliefs when it comes to solving, so i wouldn't expect your reasoning to be very relevant to me since your expectations of what town and scum would do are not in line with what tends to differentiate my play

at the time when i read through it i mostly found myself rolling my eyes and thinking you were scum but it seemed like a waste of thread space to engage with it in detail. but sure okay

I find Sunflower's 175 read fake. There is no reason to stick with a town read if there is both a good scum and town explanation for DE's behavior. In the single game I have played with him I have also seen DE be a more thoughtful and analytical player so "it feels his brain works this way" strikes me as handwavy to couch a subpar unjustified read.

i don't see how this follows from my post at all? i pretty clearly explain several reasons why i don't think he would do this as scum. i specifically am saying in 175 that i did not think there was a good scum explanation for DE's behavior, and explain why black's reasoning is generally accurate but this situation is more specific. i also don't think that dragon being a "thoughtful and analytical player" is mutually exclusive with what i said. i think most people who have played with dragon and also probably dragon himself would agree with me that he tends to make strong reads based off gut interpretations of single events, particularly in relation to how others are approaching him, and make bold comparisons off limited meta sample sizes. it's a pretty central part of his play

Relatedly 313 makes me question if they forgot their read. They did not land south of null as the combo of 163 and 175 together demonstrate. There does seem to be a point from posts 138 to 142 where it could be claimed they made a sorting attempt and only then landed on a town read but that is explicitly not what was said/claimed. Slips like this, forgetting timelines of reads, might look trivial but I take it as a strong indication that the reads were made up in the first place. Town has much more control of knowing what they thought when they thought it.

this is just not really something that is relevant to my alignment. i do not have any difficulty maintaining a cohesive and consistent mindset as scum. as scum i am meticulously aware of what my thoughts were intended to be at any point in the game. that's just how i play

the time at which i landed on south of null for dragon was after 175, not before. 191 and 192 felt a little awkward to me in a way that pinged me as scum!dragon, and made me reconsider where i had landed and think about if i had been too quick to dismiss the possibility of dragon's earlier posting coming from growing as a scum player and trying something new, and if i should be giving more weight to some earlier things that felt scummy to me. this was like an hour after 175. i didn't post about it at the time bc i don't particularly care about publicly announcing every time my reads fluctuate

if anything i do that kind of "breadcrumbing of thought processes" significantly more as scum than as town which klick and dannflor both recently correctly called out

i guess it's possible that next time i roll scum i would intentionally do less of that but i also think it's not worth the hassle bc it's such an effective way to get townread by anyone who doesn't have that meta understanding

If I look at sunflower's posting holistically over the moonrise phase, They have a load of posts (Jupiter being the more guilty party here) that clearly intentionally distance themselves from the game but only sprinkle in the occasional read. One on DE, one on Ydrasse, and one on Aureal, all light townreads all potentially reversible (maybe not DE's). Now this is clearly intended as Sunflower wasted no time in delivering a wall suggesting a pool of reads were building up faked or not. I question this strategy would come from a town mindset though while at the same time injecting in the main thread a post count only 2nd and pretty much equal to DE. It's not natural and there's a more clear scum benefit and less clear town one if any. Even Black who started with just setup spec got into gear and engaged w.e one's opinion on it.

this point is the only relevant one since it actually digs into whether my posting makes more sense as being scum-motivated or town-motivated. it's still wrong, since you're incorrect on what my goals would be as scum, but i don't think it's a bad point

the issue is believing that i would think that having a high post count with low depth of content is something that would get me townread. i don't think that's true. faking in depth content is easy and would almost definitely work better than going for a social townread in a playerlist like this which heavily leans towards analytical

it's maybe true that it doesn't strictly have a town benefit but i think only scum really thinks about whether their own play looks like it has a town benefit? that is just how i wanted to engage with the thread. i feel like it benefitted me bc it was helping me solve and i am town so therefore it had benefit to town



ok there. i am not really sure what you think was useful about me responding to that

[Sunflower]

i don't think that the focus on correctness and lower-level analysis is out of line for town!actiondan but i still feel like there tends to be more nuance to the solving and a cycle of prodding/engaging/evaluating that isn't as present here

his posting still feels stiff and positional to me

[Sunflower]

whats a reporter VOTE: aureal this is jupite btw

[Sunflower]

productive?

augh *takes damage*
tbf it doesn't always have to be this constant fucking grind like i dont like the insinuation that lack of productivity is inherently a bad thing in mafia games when we have Such Long Days

Yes thank you

Could the role be more useful in the hands of someone that has more free time and is more willing to no-life the game? Absolutely. But you got me and Drew during a weekend. Deal with it

so real and true

[Sunflower]

I find this pretty funny coming from a player that barely does anything during the Day phase

Don't worry, you won't be recruited. You don't pass the vibe check

DAMN

[Sunflower]

i'm pretty sure limming aureal today is like optimal???? what are yall doign

[Sunflower]

why are we choosing to eliminate someone who is dubiously scummy over someone who is basically confirmed. wtmoo.

[Sunflower]

also i talked with this about fire like I'm really not sure ydrasse is scum here

[Sunflower]

why are we choosing to eliminate someone who is dubiously scummy over someone who is basically confirmed. wtmoo.

Wait what

I just got here how is Aureal confscum?

dragon is Hider, dragon dropped a crumb that he hid behind aureal
still dubious as to whether or not he hid behind klick or aureal but the latter is much much more likely

[Sunflower]

ydra has literally--- ok

[Sunflower]

actually insane

[Sunflower]

like i really really do not think ydrasse is scum here

[Sunflower]

this game sucks lol

[Sunflower]

sorry i didnt mean to post that. sigh - this is jupiter btw

[Sunflower]

who's posting on catgirl chiptole rn btw

[Sunflower]

ydrasse has literally been softing all game

[Sunflower]

sorry i maybe shouldnt have posted that ugh sorry ydrasse

[Sunflower]

i am the softer it's what i do

yea ik, i talked to fire during the night phase abt it and he told me in detail why he townread u (he has an idea of what role u have) so it was like idk it was pretty obvious as to why you were town

[Sunflower]

If we think ydra reveals dreams, that does not make her town.

wait i might be misremembering setup but doesn't scum already have dream hijinks shit like they can choose a dream to see and then axe it???

[Sunflower]

whats the purpose of having a doubel dream revealer in terms of setup

[Sunflower]

just realized i might seem like im white knighting but thats kinda cool so

[Sunflower]

ydrasse can i white knight you

[Sunflower]

[Sunflower]

ydrasse wins again
yeah sure white knight me

i’m going back to bed now

YAYYYYY you are so ocool ydrasse

[Sunflower]

no ones ever let me white knight them before....

[Sunflower]

not even my better half... i shed a tear...

[Sunflower]

Sorry, I was reading My Immortal today and it's honestly fucked up my brain chemistry

[Sunflower]

Nobody asked

oh

[Sunflower]

sorry

[Sunflower]

If we think ydra reveals dreams, that does not make her town.

wait i might be misremembering setup but doesn't scum already have dream hijinks shit like they can choose a dream to see and then axe it???

So uh, I don't see any mention of this in the setup notes in post 1. All the post says is that the Bad Dreams confer secretly and then create a discard priority. It doesn't say they choose a dream to see.

I think it's possible that you are mafia and that mafia could have a role that does what you are describing and that you confused that with public info in making this post

i'mpretty sure scum has to know what the dream is if they want to remove it???

[Sunflower]

Why are you pretty sure about that?

We've been voting for dreams without knowing what they are, based on the names.

idk it just makes sense

[Sunflower]

fun fact I haven't read setup details I am not shitting you right now, all of my knowledge of setup comes completely from fire

[Sunflower]

sigh still upset baout the didnt ask thing.s tares

[Sunflower]

its ok can we just lim aureal and move on

[Sunflower]

i dont remember if there was anything i wanted to do this day phase

[Sunflower]

Did fire tell you that mafia could see what the dreams do before choosing to discard them?

no
i just assumed, maybe it was dumb of me

[Sunflower]

OK. So I am circling back to thinking it is possible that what you described is correct but you are mafia and somebody has a role that allows for this to happen, and you unintentionally let this slip.

im not really sure this is a slip, whyu are you so sold on this? is it because youre scum and you know for a fact that there's a scum pr that allows them to reveal dreams?

[Sunflower]

wheres fire i miss him

[Sunflower]

I'm tired and it's probably been addressed in 4 pages but what in the world is that pick, the revealed dream allowed us to directly ask Dragons the hide

wait it hasn't been addressed though
huh i didnt think of that at all i thought it'd be mostly useless

[Sunflower]

I'm tired and it's probably been addressed in 4 pages but what in the world is that pick, the revealed dream allowed us to directly ask Dragons the hide

No one should reply to this but J E S U S

FUCK UHH SORRY I DIDNT SEE THIS?

[Sunflower]

i wasnt serious about turning it back on you, not like you're one of my townreads but whatevr i guess

[Sunflower]

too tired to do this shit rn im goin to bed

[Sunflower]

I would flip catgirl first cause they're more obviously mafia than aureal via posting

von payne voting ydrasse reeks of desperation and they forming a wagon on her feels like we just got this

days will be long in the scum PT, friends

this feels lacking in critical thought but im not sure that's particularly a scum gimli thing

[Sunflower]

giving me end of new years dance vibes

sigh

[Sunflower]

idk i had a moment of doubting when people were talking about von payne's role being potentially a scum one but im back to thinking they're town

it's hard for me to see that either of them have played this in a particularly agenda'd way. in the past when solving games with drew in them i have a tendency to always slot him into the scumteam (without much accuracy) so im mostly going off a black read here but it feels like her understanding of the game is coming from a villager pov

[Sunflower]

overnight i mostly want to read and try to sort between catgirls and kyoko

ydra i still think is probably town and the wolves should definitely nk her bc she is very scary and powerful

gimli. sigh. i don't know. i still think the way he's playing overall feels more wolf-agenda but im less confident. im not sure if he kills klick here. i actually really wanted to talk to klick and dragon about gimli

prism has felt more like a time-limited version of her town self lately although i would need to take a much more rigorous look to feel remotely comfortable betting the game on that if it comes down to it

[Sunflower]

I would flip catgirl first cause they're more obviously mafia than aureal via posting

von payne voting ydrasse reeks of desperation and they forming a wagon on her feels like we just got this

days will be long in the scum PT, friends

this feels lacking in critical thought but im not sure that's particularly a scum gimli thing

giving me end of new years dance vibes

sigh

im sorry if this was mean

to clarify i think that town gimli gets excited about solves and if new info aligns with his solve he can take it at face value sometimes and get caught up in the excitement instead of pausing to thoroughly evaluate

in this case, if aureal is scum, i don't really think scum would be more likely than town to be looking to start alternative wagons since they'd be worried about how that would look

[Sunflower]

i think like 90% of the time if you're thinking "this game is all tied up scum are desperate we got this" that is not actually the case

bump that up to 95% probably when there's literally zero flipped scum

and part of me thinks that gimli would learn to be more hesitant around that type of thinking if it hasn't worked in the past which is why my gut reaction to it is to think it's false bravado. but i don't really know if that's fair

[Sunflower]

von's defense of aureal and what he was during during night to set his role up for hm was scummy. to say that gimli is not doing any evaluations to have those reads is unfair. I wish he wouldnt get so anxious about game to replace out like that and I'm super sad about this, but I feel fairly decent that he was town here and probably had good reads, cause my current reads overlap completely with his last ones.

i don't think that he wasn't doing any evaluations, he clearly was evaluating a lot

i just think the dismissiveness of new things and fitting them into a narrative you've already decided is an easy way to get confbiased

i don't really get why von payne would play day 2 specifically in the way that they have if they're partnered with aureal. and even if there's a plausible explanation you could come up with i definitely don't see why it makes them

more likely

to be scum

[Sunflower]

I don't really want to preflip, but it should get easier to solve Gimli's slot when Aureal flips. His level of bravado and townblocking is viable if the team is strong and positioned so that the block is defensible, if not in its entirety then at least between the insiders and outsiders.

Gimli's progression on Aureal, usually abstract and hedging, does not preclude partnership. But I think bussing so hard Day 1 is at least ill-advised.

Full disclosure: I also bought the PT posting and at least one burst of effort.

this is fair yeah

[Sunflower]

oh my bad i thought we posted our votes already. we did parts, dnd, and pitchforks

[Sunflower]

TARHALINDURRRR

[Sunflower]

Last game that was the PR mafia role so I assume the same this game

by this are you saying that you think there aren't other mafia PRs?

[Sunflower]

hi thanks again for having us on the show. we will try to do a better job this time for all our adoring fans

kinda wanted to take a mental reset from this game bc i think my reads have been not very good and i don't feel confident on my current grasp of things

gonna reread a bit with aureal flip in mind, i think there was some potentially interesting wagon movement on day 1 surrounding her

i also would probably like to realtime with black at some point while we're here. and alisae ideally. idk how to read drew or maria

[Sunflower]

alright 14 pages in and im pretty sure aureal isn't partnered with dragoneater

we're off to a great start here on season 2

[Sunflower]

i still really don't like gimli's early posturing and aggressive blocking

BUT if he is town, and knowing klick and DE were town and kind of starting to block up with him, then i think scum would be concerned about playing around him and would be generally content to win easy points when he was saying how everyone pushing for slide had to be scum

ydra's 457 is particularly funny to me when reading through under this lens although probably could come from either alignment

catgirls stubbornly refusing to give in to the anti-slide propaganda is i think pretty towny in a town!gimli world. there's definitely some possibility i think that alisae (im pretty sure that was alisae posting?) would make the call to play the unexpected route to sacrifice some immediate position but set up better for lategame, but... idk i think in this specific gamestate a town!gimli could have a lot of influence, and this action basically locked gimli into a tunnel on their slot for the rest of the game. it's a big risk to take. im not even sure if catgirls would be one of the top names being talked about to be limmed here if it weren't for that

although speaking of gimli i forgot about the readflip on catgirls in 579? they're immediately back to scum again in 606. the way that his read keeps changing (see 630) based on new evaluations of old posts rather than based on new ones is part of what it makes it feel like these whims are changing due to wanting a different position rather than genuinely taking in new info

sigh i wasn't gonna talk about gimli but his posts keep drawing my attention and it's hard not to fixate on them. i wanted to explore what things felt like under an assumption that he's town but idk if i really believe that's true

[Sunflower]

prism's catgirl read trajectory is really fascinating actually