Verbally abusing your fellow mafia player is not okay

[zMuffinMan]

snip

I think you should learn to deal with it.

Really.

What is or isn't "offensive" is entirely subjective.

I don't get offended when someone swears at me. Or calls me names. Or insults some aspect of my play.

I honestly find it more offensive when someone tries to force their values on me (like when someone tells me it's not OK to do something!) or when someone acts like their shit doesn't stink (I honestly think "sheep me" is more offensive than "fuck you". At least with "fuck you" I know the person is just expressing anger at me in the most blatant of ways, but when someone says "sheep me" it's basically an extremely condescending way of saying, "you have no idea what you're doing and my reads are better than yours, so if you have any sense you'll stop thinking you are right and listen to me instead" but in a oh-i'm-not-being-offensive-here!! cheeky way - it's like people who uses asterisks or "the f word" instead of just saying "fuck" - we all know what you're really saying, nobody is less offended by it because you weren't being explicit).

Look. You have your own set of values, and they're different from mine, and whatever, that's cool for you. But really, I don't give a shit about them, so if there are specific rules preventing it or I'm asked by a mod to stop doing what I'm doing, I will, but I'm not going to take your ideas seriously. Why are your values better than mine? Why should I care what someone else finds offensive if they don't care about what I think is more offensive?

I dare you to find an objective way to draw the line at what is or isn't OK in a game without using your personal values. Or just learn to deal with it if a mod doesn't intervene.

[zMuffinMan]

If what you are doing is making quite a few players not enjoy the game, you are screwing up

This line of reasoning could be applied to so many things in a mafia game

There is very little point in winning arguments in Mafia, so much as convincing other people to join you on your wagon. Do personal attacks make it more likely for people to do so? If not, you'd think that (barring moments of outright frustration) this behavior would self-select

This line of reasoning could be applied to so many things in a mafia game

[zMuffinMan]

The OP's rule of thumb fails on multiple levels (First, where the fuck do you live that verbally abusing strangers never happens? Have you never seen road rage? Or spats between, say, an employee and a customer? Or just random strangers angry about some lack of respect shown in some way? And second, the OP's rule of thumb was quite literally shattered when someone pointed out their personal experience with face-to-face mafia) but even ignoring that, you're still not answering why I should care about

YOUR

values when they are different to mine.

If you think 'sheep me' is more offensive than 'fuck you', then by all means cut it out of your Mafia-playing vocabulary and as a mod encourage low tolerance for condescension.

If that is your solution, then stop complaining about how a different mod handles cases of "verbal abuse"

[zMuffinMan]

do you not value civility?

A lack of civility does not affect my enjoyment of a game. Other things do.

You're really just side-stepping the issue here by implying that your values are better than mine if I don't agree with you.

Because you're not really explaining why civility is objectively important. Only that you think it's important. I've already explained why civility means shit all to me when anyone who reads between the lines can see the true intent of a statement. Being civil about it doesn't make it any better. It just means people who are offended by things I am not offended by will be less offended if it's done in a civil way. Wow. Cool. I still don't care.

[zMuffinMan]

Like, I would be less offended by someone saying "your reads are fucking shit" than I would be by someone doing it in a round-about "civil" manner

Because the latter is just them trying to make it look like they're not saying "your reads are fucking shit" in a really dickheaded manner

The latter sucks the enjoyment out of games far more than the former, IMO. Some people will think differently to me. Why should I care about their opinions on the matter? Or where should a line be drawn at what is or isn't acceptable in a game? If it's up to the mods, then do not try to dictate what is or isn't acceptable in a game if you're not the fucking mod of that game.

[zMuffinMan]

If you are a mod and your ruleset includes a "have fun" clause, actually enforce that rule by doling out warnings and force-replacing severe offenders, preferably before players start dropping out or have to stick your nose into the matter.

Look, this here. This is what the thread is about.

The issue here is what constitutes "fun" in a mafia game, and the OP's idea of that is vastly different to mine. So I ask why is the OP's (and your) opinion on this the correct one? And where do you draw the line about what is and isn't acceptable?

I dare you to find an objective way to draw the line at what is or isn't OK in a game without using your personal values. Or just learn to deal with it if a mod doesn't intervene.

[zMuffinMan]

@Quilford, obv

[zMuffinMan]

And instead of abrasive, you can be passive-aggressively condescending!

That seems to be the message of the thread.

[zMuffinMan]

What a terrible fucking false dichotomy. It's incredible that for so many of the people posting in this thread, the choice is not between being a jerk or not being a jerk, it's between being an abrasive jerk and a passive-aggressively condescending jerk

Well, that quite literally is the choice. You can either be a condescending dick in a "civil" manner or you can use vulgar language. What you're saying doesn't change, the underlying message is still the same.

There is no right way to tell someone they're wrong. You're just advocating for something you think is less wrong. Kudos to you. Very honourable.

[zMuffinMan]

What kind of universe do you live in where politely disagreeing with someone else is unheard of?

Mafia isn't a game where you can politely disagree with someone and still make things happen.

No game has ever had this conversation occur:

"Oh, I think X is scum"
"Oh, I politely disagree"
"Well, jolly good. Shall we have tea and crumpets and talk about the finer points of croquet, then?"

No.

You tell someone their wrong. You tell someone their reasoning is flawed. You tell someone their reads are not good. The manner in which you deliver this information doesn't change the underlying message; you think your reads are better than someone else's and you're right and they're wrong. All you're advocating here is you don't use particular words to express yourself because those are "offensive".

"I disagree and X is why" does not get you anywhere. Especially when half the people playing mafia probably can't even articulate X as more than "gut".

Plus, "you're wrong, you dumb cunt!" is like... the most extreme of extreme examples. I don't think I've ever said anything like that, but I have said stuff like, "how fucking bad at mafia do you have to be to think that makes any sense?" Which, apart from being the only sensible approach to someone calling you scum for talking like a pirate, is really just a harsher version of

Are you for real?

or

It's incredible

Both of these are just euphemisms. What you're saying to me doesn't change. I am not any more or less offended that you didn't use expletives here. I know what you mean, and being civil about it doesn't change the message in any way.

[zMuffinMan]

Mafia isn't a game where you can politely disagree with someone and still make things happen.

Also this is ESPECIALLY the case when someone has already made up their mind and refuses to change it, despite plenty of logical arguments to the contrary. There is no way to deal with people like that. Anything you say to them is going to be condescending, regardless of how much you sugar coat it.

[zMuffinMan]

What a great strawman, that's a real good way to get somewhere

I am so much less offended by this than if you were to use epxletives.

Boy have I been proven wrong.

I've seen the light. Civility is so much better!

[zMuffinMan]

There is a way to express that you think your reads are better than someone else's and you're right and they're wrong without ridiculing them for thinking the way they do. Jesus christ.

Yes, but the message is the same

"That's a real good way to get somewhere" isn't any less fucking condescending than telling me what you actually think

[zMuffinMan]

We get it, you're apparently jaded enough that politeness means fuck-all

No, you're COMPLETELY MISSING THE FUCKING MESSAGE

I don't care

about whether or not someone is civil. I am FINE with them not being civil. What they are saying does not change.

I think MOST PEOPLE are indifferent to it. You have a select few people who have a different set of values and of course they are the ones who are making a big deal out of it because it matters to them. Big fucking whoop.

Like, personally, I can take the Quilford approach and not give two shits. "That's a really good argument you have there!" I'm fine with being a sarcastic, condescending prick in the way you're being. It won't change things for me. If that's civil, then I'm all for it.

But I find it fucking hilarious that you're fine with being a condescending prick as long as it's done civilly and you don't see how bad an argument this is. Because the message is still the same, regardless of the words you use.

[zMuffinMan]

"I totally and utterly disagree but I respect your right to have differing opinions"

This does not work in a fucking mafia game.

You tell people their wrong. You tell people their arguments are faulty. Like what you just did when you said I was strawmanning you (and I actually wasn't because YOU JUST FUCKING PROVED MY POINT with this quote)

I am no more or less offended that you chose to be sarcastic about it in a "civil" manner. I would not be more offended if you used the word "fuck" or belittled me, because I know that's what you actually meant anyway when you sarcastically said it was a good way to get somewhere.

Your approach is to be a condescending prick in a civil manner. Kudos to you. I don't think that's any better.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm not trying to talk down to you, as if I consider you intellectually inferior to me

I don't think anyone honestly believes they're intellectually superior to someone because of actions in a mafia game (and if they do, civility is not going to change things)

But when you say something like:

"What a great strawman, that's a real good way to get somewhere"

You're only proving what Majiffy said about passive-aggressive condescension over being abrasive. I would be no more offended if you were to use expletives, I am no less offended that you chose to employ sarcasm in this manner to tell me I'm wrong. The only difference is language choice. You personally think it's more belittling to phrase it differently. I don't see a difference. If that makes me "jaded" then I don't really care.

[zMuffinMan]

You think I'm just being euphemistic, and I might as well have said the latter. Unless you can see a way forward here I think I'm going to step back and let the thread breathe a little.

There is no way forward because you're saying the message is different if it's phrased politely and I'm never going to agree with this. What's more, even people who agree with you have differing opinions about what is or isn't acceptable and where the line should be drawn. And you can't all be right, even if I'm wrong.

The tl;dr of this whole thread is that what you find offensive is different to what other people find offensive, so either mods take a hardline approach and just ban anything that anyone finds offensive, or they do what they think is right, and what they think is right may be different to what you think is right, so let them handle it how they want to handle it.

I think that abusive language in games is on the rise

Probably. This is a game where tempers can flare. There will be personality clashes. It comes with the territory. It is a game of mafia.

I mean, if you're arguing that a line should be drawn somewhere to prevent things getting out of hand, almost all mods (and certainly all mods I've played with) have intervened if things got too heated. So I really don't think it's that much of an issue.

If you're arguing against it happening altogether, then back to my original point: deal with it or find an objective way to draw the line.

Well, calling someone condescending implies that they're assuming an attitude of patronising superiority

OK, and what was your intent in telling me that's a really good way to get somewhere?

[zMuffinMan]

The more bare your thoughts are, the more genuine they seem. I tend not to review my posts before hitting submit (unless I'm scum, in which case most of my posts are crafted)

If I happen to insult a player, it is because that was my impulsive reaction / thoughts upon reading what they wrote. But I tend not to be abusive to anyone if I don't feel they've done something over-the-top stupid (the examples I gave being scum-reading me for talking like a pirate or scum-reading me for not receiving a fruit vendor message, the latter of which was ridiculously stupid because there is no scum motivation whatsoever to lie about something like that)

[zMuffinMan]

What I am asking is for when players in games say to tone it down, for people to actually do it.

I do this. If I'm told to stop, I stop. But I don't enter into games thinking much about the words I say, and I try not to act like a dick to anyone who I don't think is playing like a dick. IF I do something that could be construed as ruining the enjoyment of the game for someone else, it is in retaliation to them ruining my enjoyment of the game prior to that. And while an eye for an eye isn't the most mature way of dealing with things, it's more of a, "if you don't get on my bad side, I will not get on yours," thing.