Verbally abusing your fellow mafia player is not okay

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but it's been a while and I'm unhappy with the current state of things (if anything, site meta has shifted to more abusive language in recent years), so here's a friendly reminder:

It is not okay to verbally abuse another player because you think they are scum.
It is not okay to verbally abuse another player to establish an internet persona or to maintain a self-meta/playstyle.
It is not okay to verbally abuse another player to elicit a reaction/as a scum hunting tool ("sledging", etc.).
It is not okay to verbally abuse another player because you lost your temper.
It is not okay to verbally abuse another player to try to make yourself look town.
It is not okay to verbally abuse another player because you hold a grudge against them.
There is basically no situation where it is okay to verbally abuse another player, and if you do, the least you can do is apologize and learn not to do it again in the future.

Of course, it's in the eye of the beholder what does and doesn't constitute verbal abuse. General rule of thumb is if you wouldn't say it to a stranger's face, don't say it in a game of mafia. Ultimately though, it's up to the mod to uphold a certain standard and therefore most importantly:

If you are a mod and your ruleset includes a "have fun" clause, actually enforce that rule by doling out warnings and force-replacing severe offenders, preferably before players start dropping out or have to stick your nose into the matter.

Please and thank you.

[Untrod Tripod]

eh, there's a difference between saying "your play this game has been bad" and saying "you are a bad player"

and people seem to try to use the two interchangably

[CrashTextDummie]

I am more concerned about the "fuck you, you scumfuck" category of verbal abuse.

Both of your examples would be okay in my book. "Don't be such a moron" wouldn't be. "You're an idiot if you think that" is borderline. "You're either scum or incredibly stupid" is not okay.

That's just my personal opinion. I wouldn't complain to the mod about any of those if they're used in isolated instances and not heaped constantly upon a player. If I was modding myself, I'd step in though.

Hence why I think mods should make use of their discretion.

I don't think there's any debate that "fuck you", "eat shit", "die in a fire", etc. is not something anyone would say to a stranger's face in a supposedly friendly environment.

[Untrod Tripod]

I really don't mean to be condescending when I ask you this, but how much f2f mafia have you played?

[Vi]

It is not okay to verbally abuse another player because you think they are scum.
It is not okay to verbally abuse another player to establish an internet persona or to maintain a self-meta/playstyle.
It is not okay to verbally abuse another player to elicit a reaction/as a scum hunting tool ("sledging", etc.).
It is not okay to verbally abuse another player because you lost your temper.
It is not okay to verbally abuse another player to try to make yourself look town.
It is not okay to verblly abuse another player because you hold a grudge against them.

I agree with all of these! (In fact, abusing someone you think is scum makes no sense; they're SUPPOSED to be obstructive.)

"You're either scum or incredibly stupid" is not okay.

I disagree vehemently with this! This is not only a perfectly valid observation, but a rather common dilemma that people have to suss through.

Signed, someone who may have made a big mistake in declining to be part of the Serene hydra.

[CrashTextDummie]

I really don't mean to be condescending when I ask you this, but how much f2f mafia have you played?

How is this relevant? I play f2f mafia with people who generally don't curse and name-call. If your group of friends doesn't mind doing that, that's fine. You're generally not playing with personal friends here.

[Untrod Tripod]

okay, so you do and your friend group is pretty polite. cool.

I was just asking because all of my f2f experience has involved a lot of posturing and dick-waving, so I don't really consider the current site meta to be tooooooooooo far outside of what you get with people you actually have to look at when you call them dumbbutts

[CrashTextDummie]

Example from a recently finished game:

Wait a minute, smargaret, you took the exact same stances as me!

I hadn't even noticed that until there - you hypocritical scumfuck!

yeah no

I am so done with talking to you

you literally are such an obtuse moron, I can't take it anymore.

I tell him that the lack of any scum posts by me would imply I'm not scum, and he responds with a sarcastic quote.

Fuck you.

oh my god just die you scumfuck.

Though CTD is an idiot for switching.

He's gonna flip Town, but whatever.

Fuck you for choosing badly, CTD.

I'm buddying you now.

Fuck you, you scumfuck, I don't care who you want to lynch.

Vote: smargaret

And yes, for the final time, I am insulting your intelligence today. Deal with it. I look Town as fuck. I genuinely do, and you're being strung along like a puppet while the scumfuck smargaret somehow wins.

BUT YOU DON'T HAVE COMPELLING REASONS, AND YOU CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE INCREDIBLY COMPELLING REASONS.

GO AHEAD. IF YOU PUT THEM OUT, I CAN REFUTE THEM, BECAUSE I KNOW THEY ARE FALSE, BUT NO-ONE WILL LISTEN TO ME ANYWAY, REGARDLESS OF HOW MAGNIFICENTLY I RAPE THE HOLY TENETS OF YOUR LIES.

You clown, please be quiet. Bulba is scummily coherent, but your shit makes me sick. As if a rape remark is indicative of scum-TSO. You moronic hooligan.

I have literally found myself wanting to verbally abuse the majority of posts made recently.

CTD, I'm not being the nice, happy TSO I was before because I know I'm going down today. Smarg and Bulba need only my mislynch, your mind is made up though you attempt to tell me it's not, and we'll find someone else to eventually hammer me. The reason I am being mean today is, get this, I'm fucking angry! I'm really, really fucking angry! I have reached out to you so many times and you simply fucking ignore me! I'm so pissed off that you cannot see what a scummy pile of scum smargaret is. I've tried, so many times, to show you, and you don't want to know. I don't get angry as scum; I've never once raged as scum. But I get very angry as Town, angry that you can't see things from my point of view.

AND ME BEING MEAN DOES NOT SOMEHOW JUSTIFY ME BEING VOTED OVER THOR. YOU DO NOT JUDGE TWO PLAYERS' LEVEL OF DAMN SCUMMINESS BY THEIR TONE IN THEIR POSTS. HOW THE HELL CAN YOU ACTUALLY BACK HER UP ON THIS?

That seems rather odd, seeing as my meta, which I've supplied you with, shows I do not get angry as scum, I do not insult as scum. I placate. If you want to ignore my meta, I cannot stop you; however, I don't see why you should.

TSO, I really, really doubt that anyone, upon reading your iso, is ever going to wonder why I wouldn't want to be playing with you right now.

I don't mean to single out TSO because he's not the only one doing this, he's just the most recent example I have. I also do not mean to diminish his scum victory in that game, since a lack of mod interference means he was operating within the rules.

Those quotes were directed mostly at Smargaret (who was clearly unhappy with the situation), myself and his scumbuddy Bulba. It's perfectly clear that he was using abusive language strategically because "I do not get angry as scum".

I don't think that's okay.

[LlamaFluff]

How much people can get away with depends on the mod. Some mods allow it, some lock down hard on it. Telling the mod a player is breaking the "be courteous/respectful/etc" rule may be enough to possibly have them shut it down. I have had varying luck with those complaints to mods.

I actually found there is far less of it in game I have ran because I had a "Excessive all caps posting is grounds for immediate replacement" rule, which when advertised as a rule causes most of those players to just skip joining because the "anger" descends to that quickly.

[Vi]

Though CTD is an idiot for switching.

I have literally found myself wanting to verbally abuse the majority of posts made recently.

CTD, I'm not being the nice, happy TSO I was before because I know I'm going down today. Smarg and Bulba need only my mislynch, your mind is made up though you attempt to tell me it's not, and we'll find someone else to eventually hammer me. The reason I am being mean today is, get this, I'm fucking angry! I'm really, really fucking angry! I have reached out to you so many times and you simply fucking ignore me! I'm so pissed off that you cannot see what a scummy pile of scum smargaret is. I've tried, so many times, to show you, and you don't want to know. I don't get angry as scum; I've never once raged as scum. But I get very angry as Town, angry that you can't see things from my point of view.

AND ME BEING MEAN DOES NOT SOMEHOW JUSTIFY ME BEING VOTED OVER THOR. YOU DO NOT JUDGE TWO PLAYERS' LEVEL OF DAMN SCUMMINESS BY THEIR TONE IN THEIR POSTS. HOW THE HELL CAN YOU ACTUALLY BACK HER UP ON THIS?

I wouldn't consider these abusive. The rest does a decent job of demonstrating your point; that said, people who are actually upset tend to have a problem moderating their language in practice and at some point you do as a moderator have to consider whether it's worth the effort of dredging a replacement up from somewhere every time someone gets mad in a Mafia game (pretty often!).

Like, I'm on board with saying it's a problem with the meta itself, but I don't think a blanket nicety rule will work and I'm not sure that it's something that should be taken care of below the List Mod level (i.e. bouncing repeat offenders from the site).

[chamber]

I disagree vehemently with this! This is not only a perfectly valid observation, but a rather common dilemma that people have to suss through.

I think the common pitfall (and it's one I make too) is attributing a characteristic like incredibly stupidity based on a single instance of making a mistake. We are all guilty of making rather large fuck ups at one time or another. As I've said before I think everyone would rather be judged on their best accomplishments, not their worst mistakes.

[Katsuki]

"YOU FUCKING CHEEKY SCUMFUCK" comes to mind as a phrase loaded with expletives that's not particularly offensive.

It's really up to the individual mods to govern. If a player feels offended, a nice way in general to deal with it is to PM the mod and have them issue a warning over PM or something regarding offensive language.

@Llama: screw your no-excessive caps rule.

[Vi]

I disagree vehemently with this! This is not only a perfectly valid observation, but a rather common dilemma that people have to suss through.

I think the common pitfall (and it's one I make too) is attributing a characteristic like incredibly stupidity based on a single instance of making a mistake.

What about a long string of mistakes across games?

Also, individual moves/choices can be incredibly stupid and you should re-evaluate doing them, etc..

"YOU FUCKING CHEEKY SCUMFUCK" comes to mind as a phrase loaded with expletives that's not particularly offensive.

You live in a strange world with cocaine-laced frosting.

[chamber]

What about a long string of mistakes across games?

If there is a long string of evidence then the answer to 'are the scum or stupid' is 'they are stupid' the impetus to state it is gone.

:?Also, individual moves/choices can be incredibly stupid and you should re-evaluate doing them, etc..

No one willingly makes an incredibly stupid choice in the moment. And the correct way to point it out isn't by calling them incredibly stupid, its to question the merits of the specific action.

[Vi]

What about a long string of mistakes across games?

If there is a long string of evidence then the answer to 'are the scum or stupid' is 'they are stupid' the impetus to state it is gone.

Yes, instead they say "You do not have the good judgment to make sound plays in this game please sit down and sheep me". Vast improvement.

:?Also, individual moves/choices can be incredibly stupid and you should re-evaluate doing them, etc..

No one willingly makes an incredibly stupid choice in the moment. And the correct way to point it out isn't by calling them incredibly stupid, its to question the merits of the specific action.

"The only people who would make that decision are scum or really stupid" seems like a hedge of a way to express the same point.

[xRECKONERx]

hm

[Majiffy]

I disagree with one of your positions. This game relies heavily on emotional reactions, and impacting your fellow players in an emotionally stimulating way in order to understand their alignment is proper if you know how to do it.

That being said, most players don't.

[Majiffy]

Yes, instead they say "You do not have the good judgment to make sound plays in this game please sit down and sheep me". Vast improvement.

I think this is more insulting than "you're a dumb fucktard who needs to learn how to play".

Just my personal opinion.

[Burning_Earth]

I don't mind it and I don't think many others do.

Just stop if someone asks you/is actually offended.

[LlamaFluff]

I disagree with one of your positions. This game relies heavily on emotional reactions, and impacting your fellow players in an emotionally stimulating way in order to understand their alignment is proper if you know how to do it.

The problem is that quite a few players see "emotionally stimulating" others as being an asshole because you can just say "well I was playing the game" as an excuse for being an asshole. I don't care if it gives you a slightly better chance at being able to read another player correctly. If what you are doing is making quite a few players not enjoy the game, you are screwing up and any mod who has respect for the integrity for the game should be force replacing you.

I don't mind it and I don't think many others do.

Just stop if someone asks you/is actually offended.

You sure about this?

Most people who don't act like that would prefer everyone else to actually be civil too. Quite frankly the game is not as fun as it was five years ago because there are people who seem to just try and act like a dick for the sake of acting like a dick. While I greatly prefer the old meta for posting style and game speed, what I really miss is that back then people were respectful of each other. That is dead and gone today.

Anything beyond what Vi is talking about, more of the "Shut up, you are bad and don't know what you are doing" type of attacks just gets old so fast and is needlessly abrasive. You don't need to be the bigger asshole to win an argument.

[Burning_Earth]

"You don't need to be the bigger asshole to win an argument."

Sadly, quite often you do though.

[LlamaFluff]

"You don't need to be the bigger asshole to win an argument."

Sadly, quite often you do though.

No. You don't.

This type of thinking is the exact reason that we have these issues today. If you are good and have a solid case, that wins you the game.

[Quilford]

"You don't need to be the bigger asshole to win an argument."

Sadly, quite often you do though.

What a sad reflection on the current meta that a player who joined four months ago thinks being an asshole is an equivalent strategy to the use of reasoned explanations, simple logic, and brevity.

[Quilford]

Or what LlamaFluff said, yeah.

Great post, CTD.

[Burning_Earth]

No one reads cases.

No one reads cases.

Seriously, no one reads cases.

People listen to tone though.

(There is a few people who can analyze games until they win. Hats off to those people)

PEDIT: @Quilford: Being an asshole needs to be tempered with logic. And you can go too far. But sometimes a small level of assholery (great word) is actually needed. I'd rather it wasn't. But it is sometimes needed.

I have no idea about old meta. But seriously, "it was always better in the good old days" . I find still find mafia fun.