Matrix6 and the Newbie Queue

[Master Mew]

It interests me that the Roleblocker + Jailkeeper setup (the most convoluted possible role interaction in Matrix6) also has the lowest Town win-rate.

And by interests me I mean it isn't shocking at all.

---

I think Matrix6 is too complicated for the Newbie Queue.

Now before everybody jumps down my throat about how,

"The deadlines are long, there are a lot of power roles, and the role interactions are complicated to prepare new players for what it's like on Mafia Scum, and if they don't like it then they wouldn't fit in here anyway,"

allow me to elaborate:

Being comfortable with arbitrary role interactions and needlessly complicated setups is not a prerequisite for membership on MafiaScum.net.

There are many, many members outside the Newbie Queue playing simpler setups with intuitive night action resolutions and having a great time doing it - so why does our Newbie Queue need to weed out players who would prefer that?

It's intuitive for our site/mafia initiation queue to use a simple setup, yet we use a setup more complex than many currently running in non-newbie queues for no good reason.

...Now you can jump me.

[Master Mew]

There are not six roles to teach. The only roles to teach are the ones that get claimed
Ninja'd X2

I'm pretty sure that, at the very least, the scum are going to need to understand the full setup.

[Master Mew]

I'll just toss out a random Newb setup idea.

Town Cop	Town Roleblocker	Town Tracker
Town Doctor	Town Jailkeeper	Town Watcher
Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman

Select one town role from each of two columns, and then choose the scum role from the third.

Add Goons and VTs as necessary for 2:7.

The complexity of what, understanding the definition of 'row' or 'column' as they relate to a table?

Well, for what it's worth... you did mix up row and column.

I mean, personally I feel like the only non-complex setup takes the form of a list of possible sub-setups, like F11, or is just one setup, like Bird 7P. I personally just find that rather boring, but if that's what consensus demands, fine.

It's not so much that we're all boring, but rather that a very simple setup seems like the right choice for introducing newbies to the game.

(One could argue that most of our "newbies" have played before elsewhere, but then I would have to ask: "Do you think that with a simpler setup we might be able to attract new players to the game of mafia as well? And is that something we want to do?")

[Master Mew]

Also, while I do kind of like that setup idea, I think it might be too complex for the Newbie Queue not because of rows and columns, but because of having to explain eight different power roles to newbies on top of just explaining the basics of the game.

[Master Mew]

you did mix up row and column.

No, I didn't.

Rows are horizontal, columns are vertical (you know, like actual columns).

Now look back at the way you explained your role table. :p

[Master Mew]

I don't think the length of phases in Newbie games should be changed, since they're currently consistent with the rest of the site (now on the other hand, if a new queue for slightly more quick-paced games were to be introduced, which is an idea I would support but which would deserve a separate thread for discussion, then I think the topic might be worth revisiting) - we don't want to be prepping our new members for a site meta that doesn't even exist as an option outside of the Newbie Queue.

However, I do think it would be wise to stick to very simple setups for the Newbie Queue - not only is it intuitive, but as stated earlier there are plenty of simple setups being run all over the site as we speak. Running complex setups in the Newbie Queue will weed out potential members who get frustrated by the complexity, even though we have no reason to weed out those people, since our current site meta outside the Newbie Queue caters to them quite adequately.

[Master Mew]

Basically, I want to be scientific about this. Does anyone have any evidence, even

anecdotal

evidence, that people aren't grasping the set-up? Because I'm just afraid we're going to fix something that isn't broken. The only data points I have so far are positive anecdotes from newer players.

I have quite a few friends who have played forum mafia before, but have never played on Mafia Scum before (i.e. the usual clientele of our newbie games), I showed them the wiki page for Matrix6 and asked them these questions:

1. Do you feel like you understand this setup well?

2. As your first game on Mafia Scum, would you feel comfortable playing this setup?

3. Do you feel like this setup is well-suited for new players?

I'll let you know the results once they've all chimed in. It will be a relatively small sample size, of course, but they're exactly the sort of people we're trying to attract!

Other than doing that sort of thing, all I can think of is to actually do a face-to-face poll: Try to explain the game of mafia to strangers, using the Matrix6 setup and one other, simpler "control" setup and gauge the results.

(That would be fun)

[Master Mew]

I showed them the wiki page for Matrix6 and asked them these questions:

1. Do you feel like you understand this setup well?

2. As your first game on Mafia Scum, would you feel comfortable playing this setup?

3. Do you feel like this setup is well-suited for new players?

Thank you so much, Mew! <3

Alright I have some responses in, I'll PM them to you but figured I'd post them here too - because sharing is caring.



In response to the three questions listed above,

after reviewing the wiki page for Matrix6

,

individuals who have played forum mafia on other sites but never on Mafia Scum

responded:

Spoiler: Survey Responses

1. I do
2. I probably would, column C and row 3 strike me as a tad unbalanced, maybe
3. Yes, not too many complex roles and especially role interactions

1) yes, but honestly the matrix is unnecessary (it makes it more complicated than it really is)
2) considering I have previous mafia experience, I wouldn't be uncomfortable, but the bias towards town or mafia for some of the setups is meh
3) probably not, i think they'd find it hard to understand (if they were new to mafia period) and the flawed win rates for some of the setups could be discouraging to some players

1. As a mafia veteran from another website, I understand the setup. However, it took me some time to understand it. I had to read it a few times. If I were playing this setup on mafia scum, I would constantly need to refer back to the wiki page though because I would have a difficult time remembering which role belongs in which row, etc.

2. I think I would feel less confident in this set up than the 2 of 4 because the 2 of 4 is easier to understand. I think the matrix 6 setup is more confusing. If I hadn’t played mafia elsewhere, I would definitely have a more difficult time understanding the roles.

3. No. The 2 of 4 is simpler. I think a new player would need lots of time and patience to navigate the matrix 6 set up. 2 of 4 is easier and faster to learn.

1. Yes, it's simple and easy to understand.
2. I would.
3. Definitely, it's size should help new players feel at ease taking more time to understand the game.

1. It took a few times but I think I understand the essentials
2. Maybe. But would probably be checking the wiki page several times trhoughout the game
3. I am not sure. I think it might be a little bit too confusing.

Spoiler: Additional, Unprompted Feedback

Respondent C:

i honestly dont understand how to sign up for games

Respondent B:

tell them you asked a friend who has never seen mafiascum, that their layout looks fucking juvenile

Friend:

lmfao

Friend:

matt please be sure to use the words 'fucking juvenile'

Friend:

and note that it was unprompted, no one asked [Respondent B] about he interface at all lmfao

After further dicussion it also became clear that, even though they'd all read the wiki page, nobody really got the Roleblocker vs Jailkeeper resolution (which suggests it may be unintuitive) and the Bulletproof claiming as Doctor scenario was bewildering.

[Master Mew]

I found it amusing, since I didn't even ask.

Also, proper Jailkeeper play was another thing that came up that stumped everyone. Not sure how significant that is.

[Master Mew]

Probably a dumb question, but since I wasn't around back then: What was the problem with Pie E7?

[Master Mew]

Wasn't it like 55/45?

That's really not bad. Isn't the white win-rate in chess 52-55%?

It's balanced nearly enough that the faction that plays better will win, in my opinion.

[Master Mew]

Probably a dumb question, but since I wasn't around back then: What was the problem with Pie E7?

It was town-sided but I think the bigger problem was that some non-trivial proportion of the games just saw a Mafia get lynched D1, a Townie get nightkilled and the Cop claim a result D2 that ends the game (if the Roleblocker got lynched D1, the Cop doesn't even have a result yet). 7p games with that many PRs is too swingy.

Fair enough.

Although I'm tempted to argue that a Town that lynches the Roleblocker is playing pretty well (or the Mafia pretty poorly) and that outcome seems reasonable.

Backups aren't commonly used

Like the nice thing about 2of4 was it introduced three very common roles

If I was going to implement one, I'd still do F11 minus the no PR setup. It uses basic roles and is not complex so people can just focus on scumhunting. Could limit the roleblockers shots if that one setup is too scumsided.

I'll have to find the winrate statistics to F11.

Just an idea, but what if we do the open setup of

1-shot Cop

Town Doc

Mafia Roleblocker

1 Goon

5 VT

Making the Cop a 1-shot role would eliminate a follow the cop because they could only get 1 result, and that itself could be stopped by the roleblocker.

This would be like Pie E7 with 2 extra VTs and changing cop to 1-shot.

I like that. Although I have to wonder if the Roleblocker is still necessary to keep the Cop in check since it's one-shot, anyway.

[Master Mew]

Hello, I suggest 2 goons, 6vts 1 cop