Matrix6 and the Newbie Queue

[Cabd]

I'm honestly starting to wonder if we just called it "one of six" instead of "matrix 6" and just listed the six possibilities instead of showing the matrix, if that'd solve the problem...

So instead of :

Spoiler:

Setup Info

This game is ran using the newbie setup, Matrix 6, Designed by Cogito Ergo Sum. This means there are six possible setups you can be playing.

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Each potential setup is represented by either a row or column, with vanilla towns and mafia goons added to make a 7 town 2 mafia setup.

Setup Specific Rules:

1. Mafia Power Roles may both use their night action and preform the kill.
2. The 1-shot Bulletproof player is NOT informed if their bulletproof ability has been used.
3. The Mafia Roleblocker resolves before the Town Jailkeeper, if needed.
4. The Bulletproof cannot be roleblocked.

We just do:

Spoiler:

Setup Info

This game is ran using the newbie setup, Matrix 6, Designed by Cogito Ergo Sum. This means there are six possible setups you can be playing. One of the six has been chosen randomly pre-game.

These six possible setups are:

1. Town Jailkeeper, Town 1-shot Bulletproof, 5 Vanilla Town, Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon

2. Town Cop, 6 Vanilla Town, 2 Mafia Goons

3. Town Doctor, Town Tracker, 5 Vanilla Town, 2 Mafia Goons

4. Town Jailkeeper, 6 Vanilla Town, 2 Mafia Goons

5. Town Cop, Town Doctor, 5 Vanilla Town, Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon

6. Town Tracker, Town 1-shot Bulletproof, 5 Vanilla Town, 2 Mafia Goons

Setup Specific Rules:

1. Mafia Power Roles may both use their night action and preform the kill.
2. The 1-shot Bulletproof player is NOT informed if their bulletproof ability has been used.
3. The Mafia Roleblocker resolves before the Town Jailkeeper, if needed.
4. The Bulletproof cannot be roleblocked.

[BBmolla]

3. Town Doctor, Town Tracker, 5 Vanilla Town, 2 Mafia Goons

If we do that can we change this setup to not be broken as fuck

[BBmolla]

Randomly one of:

Mafia Roleblocker - Town Cop - Town Doc
Mafia Roleblocker - Town Tracker - Town Jailkeeper
Mafia Rolecop - Town Doc + Town Tracker
Mafia Rolecop - Town Cop + Town Jailkeeper
Mafia Goon - Town Cop
Mafia Goon - Town Jailkeeper

?

[BBmolla]

Randomly one of:

Mafia Roleblocker - Town Cop + Town Doc
Mafia Rolecop - Town Cop + Town Jailkeeper
Mafia Goon - Town Cop

Option 2

[BBmolla]

I'm wrong about Doc + Tracker being broke, but the BP setups are all clearly bad and need to be changed.

[BBmolla]

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 2-shot Vigilante	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Might be hilarious. Would implement all common roles minus SK and Godfather.

[BBmolla]

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	1-shot Bulletproof Serial Killer	Mafia Doctor	Town Tracker

Nvm, do this one.

[Shadowmod]

Spoiler:

I really think it's a good idea to make the IC confirmed town with the chance of having a protective role. I don't see how you can teach newbies what you think is scummy if you have to push town at the same time, unless you're a shitty scumhunter, in which case you shouldn't be teaching newbies anyway.

I already said this in the let's-revolutionize-mafiascum thread, but adding direct links to the signup threads in the corresponding forum descriptions would help a great deal. Also, the guide to signing up on the main page can be replaced with a link to the sign-up thread saying "respond with '/in' to this thread to sign up for your first game".

You'd also need a high chance of the IC to be BP or having a doc/jk in the setup, or mafia will just do what they like to do anyway: Snipe the IC in N1.
And even then, you basically turn the game into a follow the IC, which is boring, and not how mafia should be played. And innocent child is a pretty dulll role in general, for all the same reasons...

Not with a mafia doc and a town doc who cancel each other out if targeting the same player it isn't.

It also isn't a standard role/mechanic, by any means...

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 2-shot Vigilante	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Might be hilarious. Would implement all common roles minus SK and Godfather.

Track + vig vs. no PR mafia? Hilarious indeed!

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	1-shot Bulletproof Serial Killer	Mafia Doctor	Town Tracker

Nvm, do this one.

I don't think an SK in a designated neqbie setup will find much approval.

[BBmolla]

Track + vig vs. no PR mafia? Hilarious indeed!

Yeah why not?

Mafia get a free fake claim

[Bicephalous Bob]

option 1 and 2 make it too easy for scum to fakeclaim

jk + cop is too much

I don't think vigs and SKs should be in newbies

Track + vig vs. no PR mafia? Hilarious indeed!

are you suggesting that's town-sided? it's very scum-sided

[Bicephalous Bob]

It also isn't a standard role/mechanic, by any means...

It's a fun mechanic, though.

Saying that it's impossible to create a good open setup with an IC is just very narrow-minded. The same WIFOMy aspect can be recreated with a town 1-shot doc.

[Master Mew]

Probably a dumb question, but since I wasn't around back then: What was the problem with Pie E7?

[Cabd]

Not an equal winrate iirc

[Master Mew]

Wasn't it like 55/45?

That's really not bad. Isn't the white win-rate in chess 52-55%?

It's balanced nearly enough that the faction that plays better will win, in my opinion.

[Phoenicks]

For comparison's sake, I wanted to get 2of4 put in matrix format, and I got this:

Rolecop	Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie	Rolecop	Doc
Vanilla Townie	Cop	Doc	Rolecop
Cop	Rolecop	Jailkeeper	BLANK

Don't use the row or column with the Blank (6 setups). Add 1 Mafia Goon and 4 VTs.

I think a Matrix looks nicer than a list of all possible setups. Matrices are easier to understand at a glance. (Though 2of4, in saying "Pick 2 of {Cop, Doctor, VT, JK}" sufficed.) If a final setup is more complicated than 2of4, or is like Matrix6 but doesn't fit in a Matrix, it would still me improved by sticking it in some rows and columns with a few [BLANK].

I like the backup idea. Backup makes any setup more interesting without making it much more complicated. What about a setup where that always has a backup, without guaranteeing what alignment he'll be?

Other than that, I leave it to Mina's group.

[BBmolla]

Backups aren't commonly used

Like the nice thing about 2of4 was it introduced three very common roles

If I was going to implement one, I'd still do F11 minus the no PR setup. It uses basic roles and is not complex so people can just focus on scumhunting. Could limit the roleblockers shots if that one setup is too scumsided.

I'll have to find the winrate statistics to F11.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Probably a dumb question, but since I wasn't around back then: What was the problem with Pie E7?

It was town-sided but I think the bigger problem was that some non-trivial proportion of the games just saw a Mafia get lynched D1, a Townie get nightkilled and the Cop claim a result D2 that ends the game (if the Roleblocker got lynched D1, the Cop doesn't even have a result yet). 7p games with that many PRs is too swingy.

[Alchemist21]

Backups aren't commonly used

Like the nice thing about 2of4 was it introduced three very common roles

If I was going to implement one, I'd still do F11 minus the no PR setup. It uses basic roles and is not complex so people can just focus on scumhunting. Could limit the roleblockers shots if that one setup is too scumsided.

I'll have to find the winrate statistics to F11.

Just an idea, but what if we do the open setup of

1-shot Cop

Town Doc

Mafia Roleblocker

1 Goon

5 VT

Making the Cop a 1-shot role would eliminate a follow the cop because they could only get 1 result, and that itself could be stopped by the roleblocker.

This would be like Pie E7 with 2 extra VTs and changing cop to 1-shot.

[Master Mew]

Probably a dumb question, but since I wasn't around back then: What was the problem with Pie E7?

It was town-sided but I think the bigger problem was that some non-trivial proportion of the games just saw a Mafia get lynched D1, a Townie get nightkilled and the Cop claim a result D2 that ends the game (if the Roleblocker got lynched D1, the Cop doesn't even have a result yet). 7p games with that many PRs is too swingy.

Fair enough.

Although I'm tempted to argue that a Town that lynches the Roleblocker is playing pretty well (or the Mafia pretty poorly) and that outcome seems reasonable.

Backups aren't commonly used

Like the nice thing about 2of4 was it introduced three very common roles

If I was going to implement one, I'd still do F11 minus the no PR setup. It uses basic roles and is not complex so people can just focus on scumhunting. Could limit the roleblockers shots if that one setup is too scumsided.

I'll have to find the winrate statistics to F11.

Just an idea, but what if we do the open setup of

1-shot Cop

Town Doc

Mafia Roleblocker

1 Goon

5 VT

Making the Cop a 1-shot role would eliminate a follow the cop because they could only get 1 result, and that itself could be stopped by the roleblocker.

This would be like Pie E7 with 2 extra VTs and changing cop to 1-shot.

I like that. Although I have to wonder if the Roleblocker is still necessary to keep the Cop in check since it's one-shot, anyway.

[Mina]

Lots to respond to!

I really like CES's backup set-up, except I feel like Town Cop + Backup needs more than a Rolecop to compensate it. (But my sense of balance is completely intuitive.) It means two players to kill so that there's no cop, unless scum get lucky on the lynch order. Unfortunately, that would make Jailkeeper vs. Roleblocker a necessary evil. Also, I agree that Backup is kind of an ugly role (when does the power activate, the night after the Cop/JK dies or is lynched?), and rare enough elsewhere on the site that I don't feel like it's a great fit for a newbie game. Interesting ripple: it means that scum will always know whether it's safe to claim Backup, but will never fakeclaim Cop or Jailkeeper except to out a PR.

Does someone have the statistics for F11? I want to see just how lopsided the Doc vs. Goon x 2 set-up is. But no to BBmolla's recent setups. You're doing the opposite of what we're going for! We generally agree that the matrix is balanced enough for a newbie game, but sort of an information overload. Keeping the matrix, but replacing some of the roles with ones like serial killer exacerbates the problem.

My prediction: after thirty pages, we'll wind up with a 5x5 matrix. Scummers are perfectionists.

I didn't want to start a PT before the surveys, but I might do it just so this thread isn't bogged down with setup talk. I feel like this thread would be better if it concentrated more on general problems with the queue/setup. (I'm pretty adamantly against assuming that newbies would prefer one-week deadlines and enforcing those when the rest of the site doesn't use them, though.)

[Shadowmod]

(I'm pretty adamantly against assuming that newbies would prefer one-week deadlines and enforcing those when the rest of the site doesn't use them, though.)

The basic problem is that any stance claiming that "newbies (in general) would prefer this or that" is just either very arrogant ot just plain naïve - because newbies are humans, too, and as such very different. just like any one else. I daresay there simply is no such thing as a "one size fits all" newbie setup. Luckily playing newbie games is optional, even for newbies.
On that basis, it's probably fair to assume, though, that newbie setupos should remain fairly basic/simple - if you want more, there are other queues for that.

[Mina]

I really like CES's backup set-up, except I feel like Town Cop + Backup needs more than a Rolecop to compensate it.

Actually, did cop+jailkeeper vs. rolecop work out fine in 2of4? Maybe not, then.

[borkjerfkin]

if i recall 2of4 it was doc + jk that had the huge town favor. I don't think cop + jk swung nearly as hard toward town.

[borkjerfkin]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22564

the sample size is pretty balls though

[Mina]

Thanks, borker!

All the people complaining about the matrix presentation: I changed the OP like a week ago at aphix's suggestion to list the individual setups. The matrix is still there as a visual aid (and also for people who hate change). Game mods are free to list all the setups in their rulesets beneath the matrix as well.

Any other suggestions for changes to the newbie queue OP would be helpful, by the way, since I want to streamline it more.

What if you just have one less newbie and one more SE per game? That way, you help reduce the problem of lack of newbies, aaaand you get one more person who sort of knows what's actually going on to keep the game moving, and to help there be less of those long stretches of nothing that happens in most newbie games.

When I considered adding a second IC to a game, it was pointed out that this would make the games <50% newbies. I guess you could argue that 1) newbie games should primarily serve newbies, and 2) psychologically, there's a difference between most of the players being new like you and being in the minority (it already sucks that some newbie games wind up being all experienced players by the end). Also, in defence of newbies, quite a few of those who stick it out are really eager and engaged with the game.

TBH, I really don't think it'll make a huge difference either way. Most of the rules (whether we have 4-6 newbies, 2-4 SEs, 1-2 ICs, SEs who've played two games or three games, ICs who've played five games or six games, experience in the Road to Rome or out of the Road to Rome) are pretty arbitrary, and seem to exist more for the sake of

making my life more difficult

consistency. I'm toying with reverting to two ICs, but that might not be sustainable longterm.

I really think it's a good idea to make the IC confirmed town with the chance of having a protective role. I don't see how you can teach newbies what you think is scummy if you have to push town at the same time, unless you're a shitty scumhunter, in which case you shouldn't be teaching newbies anyway.

I'm hesitant to do this mostly because of the decade-long history of ICs who can be either alignment. Also, I kind of think the current setup teaches the "you can't trust ANYONE!" aspect of the game well. Would like to hear from people who've IC'd a lot if they have a problem compartmentalizing as scum. But most of them make it very clear in their standard IC posts that what they say as an IC is very different from what they say as a player.

I already said this in the let's-revolutionize-mafiascum thread, but adding direct links to the signup threads in the corresponding forum descriptions would help a great deal.

+1 to this.

What is the main goal of newbies? If it's to introduce players to the mechanics and the most common roles, then Matrix6 is absolutely fine and the relative complexity is a necessary evil. If it's to provide a simple playground where newbies can learn to scumhunt, it isn't that suitable.

Although I'm starting to think exposure to a wide variety of roles (and attractiveness to SEs/ICs/mods) are advantages, from what I remember as a casual observer...people basically just argued for a hundred pages on how to make the most balanced newbie set-up possible, and finally settled on something really complicated. The "introduction to mechanics" part was just a coincidence.

Mind you, the kids will probably be all right no matter what. I mean, my first Mafia game had no reveals upon death, a town necromancer, only one Mafia goon among thirteen players, and a secret cult recruiter. My first two games on mafiascum were awfully modded, catastrophically unbalanced fiascos. That didn't turn me off, because I didn't know any better then.