open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: Bellaphant

So is it just like, an elephant with a bell on it or a bell with an elephant on it

[OutWorldER]

yes hi i'm new to the site

just joined and already 10000 posts smh can't take it with all these newbie hyperposters

[OutWorldER]

With 14 people in the playerlist I would've figured things've popped off faster than they have.

T3 is probably town.

[OutWorldER]

Oh yeah? I'm actually getting slight scum pings from T3

Go on.

[OutWorldER]

T3 is probably town.

Curious to hear why you think so

Trying to jumpstart discussion in RVS, even if on a fairly reachy basis, feels fairly townie to me. In general I think scum are more likely to wait for other people to start pushing wagons rather than try to jumpstart one themselves. I also think the reachiness of it is actually +town since I feel like scum would probably be angling for a good first impression here.

[OutWorldER]

T3 is probably town.

Curious to hear why you think so

Trying to jumpstart discussion in RVS, even if on a fairly reachy basis, feels fairly townie to me. In general I think scum are more likely to wait for other people to start pushing wagons rather than try to jumpstart one themselves. I also think the reachiness of it is actually +town since I feel like scum would probably be angling for a good first impression here.

I appreciate the reply! I think I disagree with most of this though lol

Could you describe what specifically you disagree with? Just to get a peek into your thought process.

[OutWorldER]

Jupiter's 64 feels very townie, good vibes there.

What differentiates Bella from being town and having a genuine read on someone and then being playful in 41 from Bella being scum and having a fake read on someone?

Again the town reading while possible, I would view it as less sensical to have to test waters before putting forward reads in the first place when playing as town. 41 mainly contributes to the feeling of Bella giving the appearance of bringing up discussion but not actually furthering it in this case, IMO, which scum can tend more towards doing as mentioned.

What do you think that scum!Bella gains from obfuscating her townread?

[OutWorldER]

UNVOTE: Kurtapika

Im new to the game so struggling to get involved, but whilst weak my initial suspicions would be for T3.

I’ve found his posts to be the most defensive. Particularly 39.

I also don’t like 63. I don’t like that he answered for Asia, whilst saying not to answer for her. Asia has been prodding slightly at T3 and I’m conscious whether answering for her was almost doing her a favour to get her off his back. Almost a ‘look im on your side’.

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

If your suspicions lie with T3, why didn't you move your vote to him?

[OutWorldER]

In 63, I

guess

what you're saying could be true. I suppose the best response I have is that people usually just don't do things like that.

Wouldn't the best response be that you, specifically, would not do things like that? Is the behavior that Project mentioned something you might consider if you were scum?

[OutWorldER]

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

I don't want to answer for Aisa but I think that because my statement in 15 was intended to play on Bella's statement in 13, my 15 could appear to be more abrasive, in a sense.

Yes, this basically. T3's post pinged me because 1. he was playing on Bella's post, which I thought could be a way to try to insert himself into the conversation as scum, 2. he came off as kinda serious and antagonistic while doing so, which again I thought could be scum-indicative

What's your thought process behind viewing antagonism and a serious attitude as scummy?

[OutWorldER]

UNVOTE: Kurtapika

Im new to the game so struggling to get involved, but whilst weak my initial suspicions would be for T3.

I’ve found his posts to be the most defensive. Particularly 39.

I also don’t like 63. I don’t like that he answered for Asia, whilst saying not to answer for her. Asia has been prodding slightly at T3 and I’m conscious whether answering for her was almost doing her a favour to get her off his back. Almost a ‘look im on your side’.

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

If your suspicions lie with T3, why didn't you move your vote to him?

I removed my previous vote because we seemed to be out of RVS. I didn’t place my vote on T3, as whilst I gave my initial thoughts of suspicion, I wasn’t overall confident in those suspicions so didn’t feel they warranted a vote yet.

Why do you think you need to be confident to place your vote down on T3? It takes 8 to eliminate somebody today, and yours would be only 2/8. Votes are often considered a tool to put pressure on other players on this site.

Do you have any other suspicions?

[OutWorldER]

I feel good about Aisa so far. It feels like she's engaging with people in a cooperative and amicable way and it feels like she's trying to genuinely figure them out

I like T3 here too. 15 feels like he's mocking bella considering his read in 26 which is kinda mean but not necessarily scum indicative. I like Project's read on T3 in 91 and I had similar thoughts when reading through, so I like Project so far as well

I agree with OWER's read on Jupiter in 86 and I like how inquisitive and engaged OWER feels

Nothing is really pinging me as scummy yet

Your T3 read feels odd here, as 91, a post you say you had similar thoughts to, voices suspicion on T3. You say you like T3, but your only point is early posts for which your only point is "not necessarily scum indicative". What has T3 done that is townie, in your opinion?

[OutWorldER]

Ah, I had the wrong post, my bad, I was thinking of Project's 76

[OutWorldER]

UNVOTE: Kurtapika

Im new to the game so struggling to get involved, but whilst weak my initial suspicions would be for T3.

I’ve found his posts to be the most defensive. Particularly 39.

I also don’t like 63. I don’t like that he answered for Asia, whilst saying not to answer for her. Asia has been prodding slightly at T3 and I’m conscious whether answering for her was almost doing her a favour to get her off his back. Almost a ‘look im on your side’.

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

I feel Kurtapika is awkward and distant.

Why do think this is a scummy trait rather than a symptom of being new to the site?

[OutWorldER]

- I kinda think Titus is a little towny so far? I've definitely not read her wrong before
- I don't think OutworldER is necessarily evil, but I disagree with the townreads they're gotten so far

Can you elaborate on these two reads?

Titus: vibes. I have this theory that she sounds a bit more agenda-y and calculated as scum. In this game so far she seems to be mostly chilling.
OutworldER: all he's done so far is ask questions. Which is great! But I don't feel like it's enough to give someone a townread. I'd like to see how his reads evolve.

Most of my townreads are just vibes so far. The questions don't really have a whole lot to do with where my reads lit atm because I'm mostly asking them as setup for later in the game to try and get an idea of how people approach reading the game and their general thought processes, and seeing if they contradict themselves. I know someone asked (I think it was shaddowez?) why I felt Jupiter's post was townie and it was just, they seemed invested in a way where they were spewing things off the top of their head, even if it wasn't super useful.

[OutWorldER]

the other actual reason I'm asking so many questions is because I watched a shitton of Columbo recently and am adamant to turn this game into my secret Columbo RP session.

[OutWorldER]

SHADOWEZ

why are you ignoring the t3 wagon huh

Because he's my scumbuddy and I'm not bussing, obvs

As a real answer, I don't see this as a worthwhile wagon. My primary SR right now is the first vote and it doesn't feel like a bus,

so it'd be a pretty big swing for me to switch those reads right now.

The second vote is an RVS vote from somebody with 2 posts. I do have a slight TR on both you and Aisa right now, but that's not enough for me to hop on just yet.

The underlined doesn't feel like something a townie would say here, it feels like you're deliberately calculating how natural your progressions and votes feel, which town has no reason to do.

VOTE: shaddowez

[OutWorldER]

Why do you think scum would say that out loud like that? Or do you just think he was trying to be open/honest and slipped?

The latter. Lying is a very mentally strenuous task, so telling a half-truth is easier than making up a reason as to why he's ignoring the T3 wagon. I think this is further supported by the fact that shaddowez has so far declined to actually give a read of T3. Every reason he gave for it "not being a worthwhile wagon" has to do with the people who are on the wagon. It reads like scum trying to avoid faking a read.

[OutWorldER]

Ehh I'm not sure about this. I can see where you're coming from

but one of the responsibilities of being town is trying to let others find you as town

. I think some people are naturally more self-conscious about what they're doing regardless of alignment

Also re: the underlined specifically

I disagree. The hypothesis that I've gone into this game with, and what's informing my play-style this game, is that what's "scummy" and "townie" is mostly arbitrary and incredibly variable from person to person. There's a few behaviors where there's consensus, but very little of it is based in objective fact. Through this lens, trying to specifically curate your image to be townie, as a townie, is an incredibly sisyphean task. This is why I've mostly stuck to asking questions this game, trying to gain some insight into how players view the game and then catching them when they contradict themselves to push an agenda.

My shaddowez vote here is a deviation from that, mostly because I think his specific phrasing there, and the specific reasons he gave, warranted pressure and further investigation.

[OutWorldER]

Hi, I return. Apologies for the absence. Here's a wall of quotes I wanted to respond to while catching up

Spoiler: Quotes Wall

Not sure I agree with OutWorldER at 211 . In fact I don’t agree. Getting to the content I don’t agree that saying you would need a lot to switch reads is not town.

That wasn't the way he phrased it to me though. He said it would be a "pretty big swing to switch those reads right now" which reads to me like he's judging how jarring other townies would find his switch, not that he was dissatisfied with the evidence presented.

Right, in regards to catching up. I want to note in particular that OutWorldER's responses overall are giving me a strong tr on him, and as far as D1 reads go it's the most solid I currently have.
-SNIP-

Could you elaborate on why you're townreading me? If it's the strongest read you have, then I think you should be able to articulate it. Frankly, I myself aren't so sure what exactly I've done so far that exudes towniness.

I understand the scum reads on Jupiter

I think they have a posting style that is very stream of consciousness and somewhat performative and I tend to scum read that type of posting style a lot. But idk currently I feel that is more a sign of personality than a sign of alignment in this game

But like I *get* it

What, specifically, in Jupiter's posting allows you to make the distinction between alignment and personality?

Kurtapika > T3 > Black

these are dannflor approved wagons in about the order i feel comfortable wagoning them

What is your Black case, again? I'm not sure if I missed it while trying to read back up but I couldn't find where you give an exact reason for suspecting Black.

I'm kind of torn because I think Dann is a comfortable townread for me right now, but I also feel like Kurta's move onto Skygazer could be genuine, and the over-justification is simply a symptom of being in an unfamiliar meta. But even that said, they're a nullish read for me at best right now, voting low-content/low-activity slots is a very classic scum move to appear townie, and I'm general agreement with Dann here that the very diluted votes here and sheer amount of vanity votes is hurting Town's ability to read the game.

I'm going to VOTE: Kurtapika here to consolidate. I'm comfortable here or on shaddowez.

[OutWorldER]

i decided i want my iso to mostly look like an oblivion live blog

just finished all of those mages guild recommendation quests finally. time for some stupid custom spells!

There's a funny exploit you can do with custom spells where you get

-A summon creature spell
-A 100% reflect magic spell that you can cast touch
-A spell that gives 100% weakness to magic with a small positive buff appended to it

and a few other things like a spell that fortify's intelligence/magicka and a paralyze for your summon so it doesn't attack you. Paralyze the summon, cast the reflect on it, cast your magic weakness spell on it, and watch the positive buff you attached scale exponetionally, onto you. 100 times more broken than even Morrowind alchemy.

[OutWorldER]

I don't like Dannflor's vote but I only think it makes him scum if Kurtapika flips scum

Could you explain this logic more? I'm not sure it tracks. Kurtapika is voting Skygazer here, while Dann's voting a person pushing Skygazer. If anything I think Dann only flips scum here if Skygazer does.

I think Skygazer's case against Project is reasonable but I'm not liking how Skygazer is actually defending themselves here. A lot of "Well this is a bad play for scum to do so clearly I wouldn't be doing it" type arguments.

I think there's one Maf in this argument but I'm not super confident on which one it is.

[OutWorldER]

I think Skygazer's case against Project is reasonable but I'm not liking how Skygazer is actually defending themselves here. A lot of "Well this is a bad play for scum to do so clearly I wouldn't be doing it" type arguments.

if it makes you feel better, i make these stupid self-meta arguments as both alignments. i purposefully dumbtell/badtell a lot as scum to try and reflect my town game. so i get where you're coming from

Your tone here seems a lot more cordial responding to me than you have been responding to almost everyone else you've talked to over the course of this little debacle. Is there a specific reason for that?

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: Skygazer

Think ultimately my distrust in Skygazer supersedes his points against Project. I think the way that Project has pushed this is mostly consistent with his earlier behavior; I don't think there's a huge inconsistency between 337 and 579, and I think the contrast of how un-confident he was in his earlier reads vs. how thoroughly he's thrown himself into the 1v1 vs Sky makes me believe this push is genuine. I get the feeling that Project genuinely thinks he's caught scum active lurking here.

Skygazer's tone when he's speaking to Jupiter, Project, and Black to some extent (in fact 647 was the post that tipped me off to this train of thought) vs. the way he talked to me and to some extent Afrayed is really giving me the vibes of "caught for the wrong reasons" mafia. Project's push on him is genuinely somewhat flawed, but the way Skygazer responded to it, and how invested he seems when doing so, is a large contrast to the "I'm just shitposting and chilling as town angle" he was selling earlier in the game.

I think I'm comfortable within a Skygazer, Kurtapika, shaddowez limpool for the day.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: Skygazer

Think ultimately my distrust in Skygazer supersedes his points against Project. I think the way that Project has pushed this is mostly consistent with his earlier behavior; I don't think there's a huge inconsistency between 337 and 579, and I think the contrast of how un-confident he was in his earlier reads vs. how thoroughly he's thrown himself into the 1v1 vs Sky makes me believe this push is genuine. I get the feeling that Project genuinely thinks he's caught scum active lurking here.

Skygazer's tone when he's speaking to Jupiter, Project, and Black to some extent (in fact 647 was the post that tipped me off to this train of thought) vs. the way he talked to me and to some extent Afrayed is really giving me the vibes of "caught for the wrong reasons" mafia. Project's push on him is genuinely somewhat flawed, but the way Skygazer responded to it, and how invested he seems when doing so, is a large contrast to the "I'm just shitposting and chilling as town angle" he was selling earlier in the game.

I think I'm comfortable within a Skygazer, Kurtapika, shaddowez limpool for the day.

so basically, when i shitpost i get flak for not taking things seriously i get flak, and when i take things seriously i get flak because i'm not shitposting? lol

it is very much not a "caught for the wrong reasons" thing though. i still think yours and AK's takes were flawed (obviously), but i really don't see a need to push either you when i think town thought processes could lead to those takes. stuff that black and project posted made me want to grill them on it to see what happens. i'm also not scumreading jupiter and i don't really see how my tone is off with them, elaborate on that

I'm very much not scumreading you for "taking things seriously" and boiling it down to that level of simplicity feels incredibly disingenuous. My specific take was that the level of frustration you showed, as well as the overall level of concern you had for Jupiter, Project, and Black's takes on you, were very much in contrast to the easygoing persona you were cultivating earlier in the game. Posts like 642 and 664 are incredibly snarky, and the latter in particular is an oversimplification of the post you're quoting, which is the Jupiter interaction I was specifically thinking of.

Your defenses here consist mostly of self-meta and appeals to ridicule. The way you go about it feels as though you find the arguments both absurd but also are genuinely concerned about them, which is where I derive the "caught for wrong reasons" conclusion from. You're still doing it, even with the first sentence of this post.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: Kurtapika

E-2

[OutWorldER]

I'm pretty uneasy about the dead gamestate with no counter wagon

it makes me think kurtapika is either a miselimination or scum is currently hard bussing him

I'm not sure about the hard bus theory right now because two votes (Yours and Titus) don't feel like could be bussing mafia. Bellaphant, maybe. Aisa's vote also doesn't seem great, but she's seemed fairly townie all game. So I don't think it's a hard bus unless the scum team is exactly Kurta/Aisa/Bella.

Related to the gamestate observation, I also get like, this very strange sense that the game is weirdly divided into separate pods. Like there's 3 or so different games going on at once in the same thread. The last vote count with 5 single vote wagons contributes to this feeling.

[OutWorldER]

I think I agree that Kurta is probably just a mislim at this point.

I'm fine just continuing to sheep Titus and Dann on T3. My preferred lim for today is Skygazer but to be frank with a little less than 3 days left I don't think I could convince people to get on that wagon.

VOTE: T3

[OutWorldER]

My preferred lim for today is Skygazer but to be frank with a little less than 3 days left I don't think I could convince people to get on that wagon.

I'm not fully caught up yet but would you mind summarizing your case on Skygazer?

His reaction to Project and others push felt like scum caught for the wrong reasons, his defenses mostly stemming from appeals to ridicule, overly simplifying the others points, and WIFOM-y self-meta.

[OutWorldER]

That case is extremely weak-sauce and I think the T3/Black partner theory gains more merit by the post.

[OutWorldER]

That case is extremely weak-sauce and I think the T3/Black partner theory gains more merit by the post.

Why is Titus town?

Because you and T3 are scum.

[OutWorldER]

I do, but I don't really need a better one than the one I gave you.

I find it interesting that your response to that post is to ask a loaded question, though. You side-step my thoughts on T3's case to instead ask a question that presumes I town-read Titus. A presumption that was true! But a loaded question none-the-less. It's extremely interesting to me.

[OutWorldER]

That case is extremely weak-sauce and I think the T3/Black partner theory gains more merit by the post.

This makes no sense. If Black and I were partners we both could have gotten away with voting Skygazer and no one would have batted an eye. If I'm scum, why do I push Titus? And why does my partner, Black, feel the need to sheep my case on Titus when again, she could have just voted Skygazer and been done with it?

I don't know why, because I can't see inside your heads. All I know is that the way your case on Titus is extremely weak, and feels disingenuous, like you're making up reasons to scumread a player that is popularly TR'd (or at least not considered suspicious by the majority), and that Black's sudden sheeping of you after expressing that "T3 makes the most sense here" on the literal page before this one is incredibly suspicious.

Most of all, I think if either you or Black were town here you'd simply ask me what I disagreed with in the case, and try to sell me on a Titus wagon further. Instead, Black asks a loaded question and you dance around with WIFOM-y "Why would I do this" questions. It doesn't feel like either of you are actually trying to engage me genuinely and you're instead simply trying to divert pressure.

[OutWorldER]

Most of all, I think if either you or Black were town here you'd simply ask me what I disagreed with in the case, and try to sell me on a Titus wagon further. Instead, Black asks a loaded question and you dance around with WIFOM-y "Why would I do this" questions. It doesn't feel like either of you are actually trying to engage me genuinely and you're instead simply trying to divert pressure.

I've already explained why Titus could be scum. And it wasn't a loaded question...you made it pretty clear you townread Titus by agreeing to sheep her theory

So assume for a few seconds that me and T3 aren't partnered. Why is Titus town?

Agreeing to a theory =/= townreading. This is the loaded part of the question. You presumed that I townread Titus because I agreed with her theory, but my agreement to it was completely divorced from Titus's alignment. I agreed to it because the evidence in front of me looked to support it, and in that context, my read on Titus is completely irrelevant. Divorced from the theory, I could simply read her as null, or even scumread her, and think that you two are scummier here.

If you and T3 aren't partnered here, then Titus is town because I'm fairly sure that at least one of you is. Because I think her Kurta push has been genuine, and the solve that she's presented feels genuine and has some sound logic behind it.

Speaking of 915, the logic here doesn't really track. You're willing to sheep Titus on T3 but she's pushing him based mainly on associations with Kurta, but in this post you say Kurta is probably a mislim?

I specifically said I was sheeping Titus

AND

Dannflor in that post. You're blatantly misrepping me now.

[OutWorldER]

Why is T3 town, Black?

[OutWorldER]

She's not willing to reconsider her read at all or even solve outside of the read.

Titus being stubborn feels exactly like how it was when I played with her the two other times I did so. Granted both of those times were 3 years ago, so perhaps my meta is a bit out of date. But Titus's post ring to me more like tunneled/confident town rather than agenda-pushing maf.

Speaking of 915, the logic here doesn't really track. You're willing to sheep Titus on T3 but she's pushing him based mainly on associations with Kurta, but in this post you say Kurta is probably a mislim?

I specifically said I was sheeping Titus

AND

Dannflor in that post. You're blatantly misrepping me now.

Yes, Titus and Dannflor. This means that there were at least some parts of her case on me that you agreed with. However, she only ever claims that I'm scum because I'm partnered with Kurta. You yourself in that same post said that "Kurta is probably just a mislim." So this doesn't track at all.

Titus has clearly stated she thinks your scummy isolated from Kurtapika in 737 and 739. I said I was comfortable sheeping both Titus and Dann because they both were scumreading you and the momentum was clearly switching gears to start voting you instead of Kurtapika, a move I thought was wise given what both Dannflor and myself observed about the gamestate.

[OutWorldER]

Titus being stubborn feels exactly like how it was when I played with her the two other times I did so. Granted both of those times were 3 years ago, so perhaps my meta is a bit out of date. But Titus's post ring to me more like tunneled/confident town rather than agenda-pushing maf.

Why did you wait until she was being pushed to share this read?

Never had a reason to before I got into this debate.

I can't help but think of Mini Normal 2316 that just ended where OWER forgot to give reads on his scum buddy Shea until someone called him out on it. Then suddenly he was like "oh yeah Shea is town"

I also legitimately forgot to give reads on BlackStar that game, who was Town. That wasn't a product of my alignment, my memory is just actually dogshit

[OutWorldER]

That case is extremely weak-sauce and I think the T3/Black partner theory gains more merit by the post.

This makes no sense. If Black and I were partners we both could have gotten away with voting Skygazer and no one would have batted an eye. If I'm scum, why do I push Titus? And why does my partner, Black, feel the need to sheep my case on Titus when again, she could have just voted Skygazer and been done with it?

I don't know why, because I can't see inside your heads. All I know is that the way your case on Titus is extremely weak, and feels disingenuous, like you're making up reasons to scumread a player that is popularly TR'd (or at least not considered suspicious by the majority), and that Black's sudden sheeping of you after expressing that "T3 makes the most sense here" on the literal page before this one is incredibly suspicious.

Most of all, I think if either you or Black were town here you'd simply ask me what I disagreed with in the case, and try to sell me on a Titus wagon further. Instead, Black asks a loaded question and you dance around with WIFOM-y "Why would I do this" questions. It doesn't feel like either of you are actually trying to engage me genuinely and you're instead simply trying to divert pressure.

I am most definitely trying to engage with you genuinely! If anything you're being disingenuous and not engaging properly given that you don't provide reasons why you disagree with my case, you just make a blanket statement that it's weak and bad. Am I supposed to read your mind? The notion that neither of us asked you why you disagreed with the case is a complete misrep too - Black asked you why you think Titus is town. Sure, that question is a bit loaded, but is it not basically the same as Black asking you why you disagree with our case?

You can't read my mind, that's the whole reason I phrased my original post like that. I threw out a blanket statement because I wanted to see how you'd engage with me after the fact, and I found the way engaged with me to be scummy. I also was never asking you

to

read my mind; If somebody throws out a blanket statement like that, shouldn't first instinct to be to try and get them to elaborate? Neither of you did, and instead both of you started trying to steer the conversation in different directions.

It isn't a misrep because asking me if Titus is town is decidedly not the same as asking me what I felt was wrong in the case. Titus could be a ham sandwich and it would have no bearing at all as to why I thought your case against her was weak and scummy. If I scumread Titus, I'd still think that post was bad. Asking me "Why is Titus town?" is decidedly shifting the subject in that context, which is, again, what makes Black's question a loaded one. It inherently presumes that because I disagreed with your post that I have a townread on the person you were pushing. And as I said before, the presumption was true!
But it's still moving the goalposts on the conversation.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: Black

[OutWorldER]

I have not read anything yet but I pre-typed some thoughts during the night. Will properly catch up later as currently I'm occupied today.

VOTE: Afrayed Knott

Spoiler: Wall

Current Townblock: Myself, Titus, Dann, Skygazer, Project, ¿¿Bellaphant??

Project was Black's top townread, being heavily pushed by Dann, but had a lot of pushback, most of which was by Titus though, who's extremely likely to be town. Project likely to just be town.

Kurta also heavily pushed by Dann but wagon fizzled out, townread by Black, but gamestate theory presented by Dann beforehand still holds weight. Probably town?

Afrayed Knott pushed by Black in a really soft way, and Black never really tried to get anybody on the wagon. Seems very much like distancing. Most confident in this partner equity.

T3 was on the chopping block and both him and Black tried to setup a counter-wagon on Titus. Don't see a reason for Black to get off T3 if he's a mislim, and the sudden shift in reads suggest she was getting ready to bus but switched to try and counter momentum on the T3 wagon. Unless she was just trying to get Titus speed-limmed so she didn't have to deal with the NKA of night-killing her? "I'll deathtunnel Titus if T3 flips Town" feels like scum setting up a chain mislim. But why try to get Titus limmed off T3's case if you were setting up to lim Titus tommorow off a T3 mislim? Occam's Razor probably just says T3 is scum here.

Biggest suspicions in T3/Afrayed Knott. Bellaphant and Skygazer least confident townreads. Self-hammer at 24 hours left in deadline feels strange, optimal play here is to hope Town's momentum fizzles out and they no lim, thinking Black tried to make it look like Bellaphant was bussing. Weak TR though.

Skygazer vote on Black seems too early to be a bus when she could've tried to continue pushing T3 or try to add credibility to the case against Titus. Skygazer probably only scum in a Black/Skygazer/T3 world and preferred bussing Black over bussing T3, but that seems unlikely for a multitude of reasons.

[OutWorldER]

T3 was on the chopping block and both him and Black tried to setup a counter-wagon on Titu

huh?

@ Ower when did I even try to set up a counter on Titus? you are so far off the reservation you need some sort of first nation cure to bring you back to reality

guh?
It literally says T3 in the quote you posted. The point about counterwagoning Titus specifically had to do with

T3

and Black. Your name doesn't even come up anywhere in there. What the fuck?

[OutWorldER]

I'm willing to vote T3 but I want to push AK today because I think Black's vanity wagon on him yesterday was distancing.

Though honestly a Black/T3/AK solve sounds more than plausible to me.

you voted me FFS, who was on the chopping block? and who other than Black tried to set up a counter. because I read it as me. as for your TB agree other than Project and Bella.

Bella you are null right now to me

I'm not sure I'm understand the first sentence of this post. I voted you because I think you're highly likely to put a partner with Black and you've mostly slipped under the radar up until now. The part about being on the chopping black and the Titus counter-wagon specifically had to do with T3, and not you. I suspect you for entirely different reasons.

[OutWorldER]

I'm willing to vote T3 but I want to push AK today because I think Black's vanity wagon on him yesterday was distancing.

Though honestly a Black/T3/AK solve sounds more than plausible to me.

you voted me FFS, who was on the chopping block? and who other than Black tried to set up a counter. because I read it as me. as for your TB agree other than Project and Bella.

Bella you are null right now to me

I'm not sure I'm understand the first sentence of this post. I voted you because I think you're highly likely to

be

a partner with Black and you've mostly slipped under the radar up until now. The part about being on the chopping black and the Titus counter-wagon specifically had to do with T3, and not you. I suspect you for entirely different reasons.

EBWOP

[OutWorldER]

I suspect you for entirely different reasons.

pray tell

I have not read anything yet but I pre-typed some thoughts during the night. Will properly catch up later as currently I'm occupied today.

VOTE: Afrayed Knott

Afrayed Knott pushed by Black in a really soft way, and Black never really tried to get anybody on the wagon. Seems very much like distancing. Most confident in this partner equity.

It was there in the post. Adding on, You say you were the biggest proponent of Black's lim, but outside of simply arguing with her you really didn't make any attempt to get anybody on her wagon before she got speed-limmed at EOD. I don't think any of your interactions there can't be theater, and Black's posts towards you give off major partner vibes.

[OutWorldER]

I suspect you for entirely different reasons.

pray tell

I have not read anything yet but I pre-typed some thoughts during the night. Will properly catch up later as currently I'm occupied today.

VOTE: Afrayed Knott

Afrayed Knott pushed by Black in a really soft way, and Black never really tried to get anybody on the wagon. Seems very much like distancing. Most confident in this partner equity.

It was there in the post. Adding on, You say you were the biggest proponent of Black's lim, but outside of simply arguing with her you really didn't make any attempt to get anybody on her wagon before she got speed-limmed at EOD. I don't think any of your interactions there can't be theater, and Black's posts towards you give off major partner vibes.

If Black plays scum like I do, it's not theater.

OK, so does she play scum like you do?

[OutWorldER]

Spoiler: AK quotes

btw i have to go now but i strong townread ower

I'm sure you do.. but why?

i'm back now- their interactions with black make them look INCREDIBLY TOWNY including the flip, and their reads have been consistent in terms of development

fair enough and a conclusive argument tbf, but what a bout a bus? Apparently Black and I could have set one up so early in D1 it is pure genius, in fact so strategically brilliant, we had the foresight to predict the out come of this game based on it..

I suspect you for entirely different reasons.

pray tell

I have not read anything yet but I pre-typed some thoughts during the night. Will properly catch up later as currently I'm occupied today.

VOTE: Afrayed Knott

Afrayed Knott pushed by Black in a really soft way, and Black never really tried to get anybody on the wagon. Seems very much like distancing. Most confident in this partner equity.

It was there in the post. Adding on, You say you were the biggest proponent of Black's lim, but outside of simply arguing with her you really didn't make any attempt to get anybody on her wagon before she got speed-limmed at EOD. I don't think any of your interactions there can't be theater, and Black's posts towards you give off major partner vibes.

I did enough IMO. I was adamant she was scum and I was right. You think we orchestrated that from so far back? I really hope that you understand I am not that gifted. and from how easy I read Black, in two games now, neither is she.

as for the bone comment, it connects to the phrase "an old dog with a bone" which simply refers to a dog with a bone... once he/she has her teeth into the bone he/she will not let go... that sums up my play, rightly or wrongly, but on two occasions the bone I have chewed on has turned out to be Black Scum.. woof woof

Why do you think it has to be some grand plan or incredible scum play? It's easy enough to push your partner without actually putting your back in it, or to simply take the opposite side of where your partner is.

Alas though:

VOTE: T3

I trust Titus's read more than I trust my own accuracy with these kinds of things, and like I said, of all the EOD speculations I had, I think Occam's Razor just flips T3 scum here.

[OutWorldER]

I was actually just looking at page 40 and I do have to say that T3's interactions with Black there are not a good look on him imo

If I was scum with Black we could have just voted Skygazer and we would have had a pretty good shot at saving me from the chopping block.

You keep bringing up this argument, but if you were a mislim then why does Black get off your wagon to vote Titus there? If you're town than Black didn't have to post a single thing, not put herself in any danger, to get a town elimination.

[OutWorldER]

I think I could buy T3 submitting the kill if Titus is just correct and it's Black/T3/Kurta because at that point it just becomes a 50/50.

[OutWorldER]

You getting all nettled about it only keeps the paranoia in my head that you're maf, even though I trust Titus, because I'm a single vote and SR and the current gamestate is a 1v1. Unless your name is Skygazer or T3 you probably aren't getting elimmed here, so why are you so mad about a single person's suspicion?

[OutWorldER]

Like, yes, it's reasonable to be a little frustrated with being suspected when you're town. You're going a bit beyond "a little bit". You sound like you genuinely have something to lose when I talk about SRing you.

[OutWorldER]

You keep bringing up this argument, but if you were a mislim then why does Black get off your wagon to vote Titus there? If you're town than Black didn't have to post a single thing, not put herself in any danger, to get a town elimination.

iirc people were shifting to her when she voted t3

This is incorrect. Dann shifted his vote and Titus followed (kickstarting the speed-lim) directly after I had the initial argument with Black after she voted Titus in 983. The momentum only really switches onto her at 1070.

[OutWorldER]

" Ower and Jupiter so you think Dann bussed?

????????????????????????????????????

When did Dann come up in this conversation? When did this theory present itself? What makes you think I believe this? Absolutely not, lmao. Dann is basically conftown for me right now.

OWER you might be right on that

Right about what????

I feel like I'm having a stroke.

[OutWorldER]

I don't think Bella is scum here because I think Black self-hammers there to purposefully try and make it look like a planned bus.

But I also recognize that's a very WIFOM argument and it could go either way. I'm least confident about that by far.

Rethinking things and I still *kinda* want to flip T3 because I'm paranoid about Skygazer scum in the back of my mind (among numerous other reasons), but I don't think Skygazer's vote on Black at EOD 1 is a bus unless she simply just, had the premonition that Dann's case was going to flip the lim onto Black.

-SNIP-

@Titus

: You say that Black is trying to promote bad reads by Project but how are you differentiating that from scum simply trying to give credence to their buddies case? I'm actually getting a little nervous about Project because I was sheeping you, but with Black's flip and Skygazer looking more town I'm reconsidering that.

[OutWorldER]

I actually think Project's EOD1 looks really bad.

[OutWorldER]

Okay I was going to type up a wall but with the hard-claim JK I don't think I have the power to really affect the lim at this point. I also have this problem with typing walls where I continuously readjust whatever theory I have until my wall is just word salad so fuck it.

I kind of think outing it this early is a mistake but I guess you also just like, can't die. Iffy on taking a 50/50 chance that it was the JK that stopped the kill and not Doc healing correctly, but eh.

However, I will still say this: Regardless of T3's alignment, I think Project has to be scum here. Project being scum perfectly answers T3's question he's asked to me ("Why don't me and Black just vote Skygazer if we're partnered" because drawing attention to Skygazer also puts the spotlight back on the person originally driving the vote, Project), and I think Project is scummy on his own merits after reading back. He barely interacts with either Black or T3, only interacts with Titus's case on T3 to call it bad while never saying anything substantial about T3 throughout the entire game, and I think his interactions with Black (which, he stops after the first few pages) could very easily be theater. I think Project being scum here also answers one of the burning questions I had ("Why does Black get off the T3 wagon if he's a mislim?" and the answer is it would make both Black and Project look good if T3 flipped town and allow them to flip either Skygazer or Titus, likely Skygazer, without drawing too much suspicion back).

I ended up writing a wall anyways gdi.

[OutWorldER]

Like I think the observation that Dann had back when the wagon shifted off Kurtapika to T3 about the gamestate being stalled probably still holds true. That same observation also holds true for T3 here and it's tempting me away from the T3 lim here (I also just want to scrutinize the read a bit more thoroughly as a gesture of good faith to T3). That the first proper counter-wagon of the game, Skygazer, happened to be Project's tunnel target is selling me further on Project scum here.

[OutWorldER]

Fundamentally I don't think Dann can be scum here simply because I don't think his shift onto Black at the end of the day can't be SvS. Black wasn't in danger of being limmed until Dann voted her, and Dann was fully aware that he was in a position where Titus and a bunch of other people who were sheeping him would shift onto his vote to consolidate. If Dann doesn't vote Black there, Black most likely doesn't die D1 and they have time to try and discredit Titus's solve in the future.

With that in mind, I think Aisa's catchup sucks and her shifting Project read makes me reconsider my own Project read.

[OutWorldER]

Fundamentally I don't think Dann can be scum here simply because I don't think his shift onto Black at the end of the day

can be

SvS. Black wasn't in danger of being limmed until Dann voted her, and Dann was fully aware that he was in a position where Titus and a bunch of other people who were sheeping him would shift onto his vote to consolidate. If Dann doesn't vote Black there, Black most likely doesn't die D1 and they have time to try and discredit Titus's solve in the future.

With that in mind, I think Aisa's catchup sucks and her shifting Project read makes me reconsider my own Project read.

EBWOP, don't post at 1 AM kids.

[OutWorldER]

My read is still on Project but Titus jail trumps so:

VOTE: Kurtapika

[OutWorldER]

don't think I've seen a town perfect win before

here's hoping

[OutWorldER]

Fear not, for the Scum Queen has arrived to save this tortured town

I dispute this claim.

You can be the princess to inherit when I retire.

When I take my first loss as scum then I will consider relinquishing my title

Black saying this and then getting perfected would be intensely funny to me (also feels a little bad, sry Black)

[OutWorldER]

i'm typing my 10 page dissertation on why Project is the deepwolf at this very moment

[OutWorldER]

I am also out until Sunday

Restating suspicion on Project.

[OutWorldER]

I think AK immediately coming into the thread to beat Titus over the head with the fact of Kurta's mislim is very strange but I also struggle to see a scum motivation since Titus is impossible to discredit at this point. I think Dann's right when he says AK is probably just town.

VOTE: ProjEctRy

Still confident in this.

[OutWorldER]

Jupiter is still town.

I'm at the point where I just have a PoE and Jupiter isn't in it and hasn't been for a while.

[OutWorldER]

Answering both of you at once:

Project
Snivy
Aisa
AK

Is my PoE in order of most preferred (top) to least (bottom). I think AK is probably town here but I also just think he's still outside the town block.

[OutWorldER]

oh, i thought about doc. doc can't protect the same person twice in a row, so they can't be on titus n3 since titus claimed d2

doc can be on the same person twice in a row

rlly? on my home site in setups like this, docs can't do that in the interest of balance

There is a modifier (Roaming) that does what you describe which can be applied to any role. However, the only reason you'd apply it to a doctor here is to prevent "Follow the Cop" scenarios (where an investigative role claims early with a protective role hidden and produces hard results while being untouchable), which, in this setup, would normally not happen outside of the specific scenario that this game has ended up in (two scum limmed in a row and JK being able to act as an investigative role) and even then it's not really breaking because scum can no-kill.

[OutWorldER]

Ok, would you bet your life on Dan being town?

its not a trick question because I've seen him mess with town as scum and I am getting this feeling of deja Vu, and its growing.

Dann being scum here borders on an impossibility. It makes no sense strategically that Dann busses Black on D1 (HARD bus by the way, since Dann was the one who made that switch happen in the first place) when he could've just kept bussing T3 instead and try to talk Titus out of Black on D2.

Like, sure, theoretically, he's not a cleared slot. But him being mafia would require Black and T3 to accept being bussed two days in a row so that Dann could try to deep-wolf against a practically invincible jailkeeper and play an egregiously long game.

Maybe if this game somehow gets to 3P ELO, I'll consider it. Right now, Dann is conf.

[OutWorldER]

On that, I think something that would be very powerful is having a (correct) towncore
I'm not sure how to get there exactly

We already have one, I'm fairly sure? Titus, Dann, Skygazer, Myself, Jupiter. My memory may be failing me but I'm fairly certain this block of people is all townreading each other. Skygazer might be the outlier here but I also just think Skygazer's 1v1 with T3 can't be SvS unless it was an extremely ballsy gambit.

Frankly on my end I'm just between voting you or voting Project, because of all the people outside that block I think AK is probably just town, Bella I think is a consensus read town and same for shaddowez.

[OutWorldER]

i guess i kind of think it makes you town

Curious why you think this since I'm in the opposite camp. I think Aisa's recent posting, especially today, just kinda reads like someone who wants the appearance of being towny and solving.

In general looking back through Aisa's ISO I feel more confident in that scumread since I think there's a specific pattern with her activity that tells on her being scum.

[OutWorldER]

Like, I think it's really convenient for Aisa that she's entirely absent when Black is getting run up. And Aisa also seemed to be less active during D2 and her play around T3 just kinda comes off as wanting to defend T3 and trying to get him out of his situation while also not wanting to be implicated herself.

Unsure if I'm more confident of Aisa being scum than Project though.

-SNIP-

I jailed Aisa as Aisa is a popular scumread.

We are clearly in nightless though. Let's hold off a choice until after Christmas.

I'd like feedback on the above post.

I think you're aware I already disagree with that post because I still scumread Project, and in general I think Kurta flipping town means that certain parts or even that entire post should be reevaulated.

[OutWorldER]

Like, I think it's really convenient for Aisa that she's entirely absent when Black is getting run up. And Aisa also seemed to be less active during D2 and her play around T3 just kinda comes off as wanting to defend T3 and trying to get him out of his situation while also not wanting to be implicated herself.

You may like to consider that when I last posted on Day 1 I was voting T3, who was the largest wagon (viewtopic.php?p=14005598#p14005598)

Okay?? Black votes literally right after you, and we know Black was Maf. There's no reason that can't be a bus, especially when it was very obvious that the momentum was shifting to T3 as people were souring on the Kurta wagon.


Looking back the way you were navigating the Kurta wagon also strikes me as very interesting. A lot of it just seems like following popular opinion with the sole exception of 873, where you unvoted to "look around for a bit" and then did precisely jack all until the T3 wagon started up.

VOTE: jupiter

Curious to hear why.

[OutWorldER]

Eh...I'm having trouble seeing it.

I did have a realization though that scum have the option to concede so I kind of don't want to dismiss it outright because the fact that they haven't speaks to either a good position or a large amount of motivation.

[OutWorldER]

Fundamentally I don't think Dann can be scum here simply because I don't think his shift onto Black at the end of the day can't be SvS. Black wasn't in danger of being limmed until Dann voted her, and Dann was fully aware that he was in a position where Titus and a bunch of other people who were sheeping him would shift onto his vote to consolidate. If Dann doesn't vote Black there, Black most likely doesn't die D1 and they have time to try and discredit Titus's solve in the future.

With that in mind, I think Aisa's catchup sucks and her shifting Project read makes me reconsider my own Project read.

Sorry, I know it's annoying to go back to a thing you said two weeks ago, but can you talk me through why you think danns vote was the trigger?

I have other thoughts on your iso but I wanna engage on this first.

A lot of D1 was Titus and Dann compromising on who they wanted to lim, and it was mostly those two who were leading the conversation as Town for the majority of the day, and also those two who were mostly trusted by other people during D1. Dann's vote caused Titus to swap, and that caused things to escalate all the way to a Black lim.

[OutWorldER]

can i get a summary of where your reads are at?

i don't really have a sense of where you're at except scum reading titus

but you're not even voting titus anymore

I'm voting Titus

Project
Dannflor

Kurtapika
Jupiter
Aisa

shaddow
CCS
Bellaphant
OWER

Afrayed
T3

Sky
Titus

This is probably where I'm at rn

In order:
(Hard defended by Black when Dann began voting Skygazer in Project v. Skygazer. Possible partner)
(Most Likely Town)
(Flipped Town)
(Townread by Black but Black was also throwing a bit of shade at them through various points throughout D1. Not confident based on assocatives alone, but D3 play tells me that Jupiter is probably just town)
(Townread by Black but no real interactions between the two of them. Soft defenses by Black of Aisa at certain points. Possible partner)
(Top of Black's null pile yet she was casting suspicion on him all day and was voting him at one point. Shaddowez vote came in opposition to Kurta wagon (550). Black attempted to link Bella and Shaddow together as scum. Possibly trying to link them together, mislim shaddow, and then call Bella town off of associatives? I think probably town.)
(Flipped Town)
(See Shaddowez. Also voted by Black in one of the game's earliest wagons. Earliness of the wagon could just be Black not thinking Bella would actually go anywhere. According to this readlist, Bella was more sus than Shaddow, but Black seemed to push Shaddowez more after Bella's early game wagon fizzled out. Early game wagon could be T3 and Black distancing from Bella? Not confident in anything here.)
(Town)
(Black hard pushed by Knott. Black seemed genuinely frustrated with AK's case. Black called for AK's wagon at one point. Probably town off associatives)
(Pushed by both Black and T3, 1v1'd T3, most likely town)
(Mafia)
(Jailkeeper, Confirmed Town)

Apologies if this is unreadable.

Rereading and Ctrl+F through Black's ISO really just makes me want to lim Project more but there's a case for Bella and Aisa too, I think.

[OutWorldER]

I'll do T3's ISO later but tbh

VOTE: Project

I still think this is the vote. I still think this is the last scum. I think Jupiter's interactions with Dann and AK today have been genuine, especially on page 82 and 83 I think Juptier's cluelessness is genuine and I just feel more confident about this than Aisa or anybody else. These past few days also feel like he's mostly just been coasting, and I think his Jupiter vote sucks.

[OutWorldER]

Rereading and Ctrl+F through Black's ISO really just makes me want to lim Project more but there's a case for Bella and Aisa too, I think.

If you have other reasons to scum read me that’s fine, but I don’t see how you can think Black’s interactions with me were anything other than Black pocketing me.

This is my first ever game and I was ripe for the picking. She was overly complimentary of me and was clearly drawing me in.

If I was her scum partner, wouldn’t she avoid so overtly defending or supporting me? Surely that would be too risky of an association.

Or she could simply not be confident in your ability to defend yourself/formulate a push without help? Skygazer directly points out in the conversation where she was defending you that he'd rather be talking to you directly, and Black was pretty much speaking for you. That could very easily be Black trying to over-accommodate for a newer scum-partner.

You're argument here also disproves itself; It's not "too risky of an association" because you and others have been making the argument that it's pocketing and not mafia being partnered. In addition, and I think the critical point here, is that if Black is pocketing you then the strategy she had with you is incredibly unclear. As far as I can tell from her ISO, she never tries to get you to vote with her, and you never built up the credibility nor the motivation/activity to be a voice in her defense.

I concede there's a chance she was pocketing you. I just think it's much more likely you two were partnered instead.

[OutWorldER]

I think it's more interesting to look at the people black just doesn't make sense on?

Who do you think Black doesn't make sense about? From my POV, the only people I can't make sense of where Black was going with her read are you and Shaddowez.

[OutWorldER]

I'm trying to lim you for a variable smorgasbord of reasons, the Black interactions are just the biggest sticking point for me. Whose "other people" in this context? I've been basically the only one scum-reading you for a while now, as far I can tell. When people were scumreading you before me it was for your push on Skygazer.

You're also talking as if you can see inside Black's mind. How do you

know

that Black would've found it too risky an association? How do you know Black wasn't simply confident that she or T3, or even yourself could talk your way out of the assocation? How do you know that Black wasn't confident that her interactions with you wouldn't be seen as pocketing? How do you know if she simply just wasn't thinking about it that hard?

This is what I meant when I say that the argument of it "being too risky an association" disproves itself because you inherently have multiple outs to the situation, further compounded by the fact that your defense is predicated on attempting to dissect the thought process of a player who is no longer able to post in the game thread. It's not an argument for why you're not scum, it's just WIFOM.

[OutWorldER]

I firmly believe Jupiter is not scum here both based on interactions with Black and their play today. (I do realize now that I said D3 in my wall focusing on Black's readslist, I meant D5)

I'm fine with an Aisa lim tbh but I still feel confident about Project and I don't feel like letting him coast for the rest of the game.

[OutWorldER]

OutWorldER

Can you tell me A, why you opened D2 pushing Afrayed even though you were pushing a T3/Black partner theory D1

And B, what made you realize scum havw the option to concede?

It's been 3 weeks since then and I don't entirely remember all the reasons. IIRC during N1 I was looking through Black's ISO and thought that her push against AK was soft (with hindsight and reading it again for D5, I think Black v. AK was genuinely SvT). I still did think T3 was scum and partnered with Black D2, I just wanted to push AK first since I had thought he went mostly under people's radar.

A game I played on an alt account ended with Mafia being in an essentially unwinnable situation and the last mafia conceded. I then drew from this the conclusion that the last mafia either was in a really good position that they could potentially make it to ELO or has a really high motivation to try and win regardless of circumstances.

The Outworlder - Projectry dynamic does confuse me. The strength of OWER's read on Project is surprising to me and I'm finding it difficult to decide if it's because he's right, he's wrong, or he's scum

I literally wall-cased Project during D2 and have pushed him consistently since then? I'm not sure why it's surprising unless you just haven't been paying attention.

[OutWorldER]

prod received, still wrapping up Christmas with family so still a bit out of sorts

The Outworlder - Projectry dynamic does confuse me. The strength of OWER's read on Project is surprising to me and I'm finding it difficult to decide if it's because he's right, he's wrong, or he's scum

I literally wall-cased Project during D2 and have pushed him consistently since then? I'm not sure why it's surprising unless you just haven't been paying attention.

That's kind of what I was surprised by - the fact you've been holding this scumread for like a solid 20 days. I'm chronically indecisive and could not tell you the last time I held onto a scumread for that long

I was going to say that despite your apparent convictions that it is Project it doesn't feel like you've pushed him very hard to me, but maybe that's unfair given how fast days 3 and 4 went by

I can be very stubborn in my reads at times. Project also just hasn't posted much that has swayed my opinion of him in the past few days, but as you point out, that might just be a function of how fast the days have moved.

I mostly haven't pushed him very hard because tbh I'm kind of on auto-pilot here. Like I said before I just kind of have a group of people I'm pretty sure the last scum is in (You, Project, It's been 3 days I honestly forget all the names) that I don't want to elim until the other group is all gone (Dann, Titus, Jupiter, Skygazer, and I think I had like 1 or 2 others).

[OutWorldER]

prod received, still wrapping up Christmas with family so still a bit out of sorts

The Outworlder - Projectry dynamic does confuse me. The strength of OWER's read on Project is surprising to me and I'm finding it difficult to decide if it's because he's right, he's wrong, or he's scum

I literally wall-cased Project during D2 and have pushed him consistently since then? I'm not sure why it's surprising unless you just haven't been paying attention.

That's kind of what I was surprised by - the fact you've been holding this scumread for like a solid 20 days. I'm chronically indecisive and could not tell you the last time I held onto a scumread for that long

I was going to say that despite your apparent convictions that it is Project it doesn't feel like you've pushed him very hard to me, but maybe that's unfair given how fast days 3 and 4 went by

I can be very stubborn in my reads at times. Project also just hasn't posted much that has swayed my opinion of him in the past few days, but as you point out, that might just be a function of how fast the days have moved.

I mostly haven't pushed him very hard because tbh I'm kind of on auto-pilot here. Like I said before I just kind of have a group of people I'm pretty sure the last scum is in (You, Project, It's been 3 days I honestly forget all the names) and then a group that I don't want to elim any of them until the other group is all gone (Dann, Titus, Jupiter, Skygazer, and I think I had like 1 or 2 others).

EBWOP, don't post at 1 AM kids.

[OutWorldER]

I mostly haven't pushed him very hard because tbh I'm kind of on auto-pilot here. Like I said before I just kind of have a group of people I'm pretty sure the last scum is in (You, Project, It's been 3 days I honestly forget all the names) that I don't want to elim until the other group is all gone (Dann, Titus, Jupiter, Skygazer, and I think I had like 1 or 2 others).

Can you try to remember who your PoE is and give 1-sentence reasons for not wanting to vote the others?

I think I mostly stand by the observations I made in 2117 still. PoE in order of preference for me goes Project, then you, then Bella, then Shaddowez, and if nobodies in there is scum then I'll start rethinking things.

I'm the doctor enjoy your game

So AK is confirmed town here since scum never fake-claim in this position. If this is a fake-claim then real doc shouldn't counter-claim for what I hope should be obvious reasons.

still a bad play though.

[OutWorldER]

i mean it's not

awful

since Titus has a confirmed clear this night unless she jails AK to prevent him from dying (which is not a risk I think Titus should take tonight) but it most definitely would've been better to just keep grinding this out

[OutWorldER]

I think ower is a better lim.than shadow

You've been saying this for a while but skimming your ISO doesn't seem to reveal a reason. Could you elaborate?

[OutWorldER]

i should probably skim better

it just comes down to PoE then?

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: shaddowez

Gut feeling that if Aisa was last scum here she'd be fighting harder against her elimination and so far mostly just seems unconcerned about it. I also just think her posting the past day has felt better than shaddowez.

[OutWorldER]

I'm personally agreeing with Dann here that I think Shaddowez is more likely than Aisa.

The concede point brought up by Bella made me remember that Dann had Shaddowez in his "never elim ever pile" during D2 and several other people including myself put him out of their PoE as well.

But tbh I'm really fine with either of them going since their both ultimately in PoE, and I think it's probably better at this point to just get a move on, so I'm gonna slap down a:

VOTE: Aisa

[OutWorldER]

E-1

[OutWorldER]

I am present for the next 2 hours.

Just going to follow Shiki's lead.

[OutWorldER]

I'm very much not confident in a Juptier lim and I think pivoting here invites disaster. We're still in a position where scum can't kill and clear if they do kill, so like, the lim here isn't shoot right or die. I know people want this game to be over with already, but like, we've still potentially got a lot of days ahead of us to figure this out.

I think it'd be better to just go with Aisa or Shaddowez, leaning towards Aisa tbh after her reaction to the fake-hammer.

[OutWorldER]

I jailed shadow.

I was obviously the NK target and protected!

Even so, I agree that it makes sense to lim the JK target. That said, not self voting since it goes against my wincon.

thought we made it to the

open-wolfing

shitposting phase finally

This is accurate, I'm in that kind of mood right now

fucking let me out of here

I agree that Dann grows more suspicious as each day goes by, even though it seems so outrageous. I think it’s building paranoia. But he isn’t the next vote!

All of these posts give me scummy vibes and I kinda just want to lim within this pool today.

[OutWorldER]

I think mechanically it does make sense to lim the JK target here since there was the Doc claim yesterday. Like obviously it still isn't a guilty considering AK's claim was speculated on in-thread to be fake but still, Shiki had a non-zero percent chance of being the NK target last night.

[OutWorldER]

How are we still on the "is Dann a deep-wolf" thing?

Can someone who subscribes to that theory tell me the scum strategy of having Dann bus Black on D1 to then try and get T3 off the hook on D2? After a no-kill? I don't see it. Maybe if we go through the limpool of {shaddowez, project, jupiter, bella} I'll consider it.

[OutWorldER]

Are people finally starting to see the light about Project

[OutWorldER]

your opening post of the day and posts from yesterday give me vibes of maf who knows they're in a losing situation and just wants it to be over

thought now that I type that out I guess you would've just conceded huh.

[OutWorldER]

meh, I'll wait for a VC and then probably vote shaddowez. still want to kill Project here but with the doc claim I think optimal play calls for limming the jk target.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: shaddowez

[OutWorldER]

torn between following the plan and limming skygazer or sticking to my guns and killing project

[OutWorldER]

if nobody has anything else they want to use the day for i'll hammer

[OutWorldER]

nobodies said anything in the past approx. 6 hours so

VOTE: Skygazer

[OutWorldER]

I want Doc to claim because I have a hypothesis about the night actions and it radically changes my reads if I'm correct.

[OutWorldER]

I want Doc to claim because I have a hypothesis about the night actions and it radically changes my reads if I'm correct.

more words

The only case scenario that JK should die here is if JK jailed doc. If Doc was for some reason just not healing Titus for a night I'm going to reach through the internet and slap them. Titus seemed to be jailing consensus scum-reads outside of Skygazer, so like, Project/Jupiter/Bella was likely her target pool. If we take Shiki/Dann/myself as a correct townblock, and I think it is, it narrows, at least my own scumpool, down to two final people.

[OutWorldER]

Like, I think the only reason we wouldn't be in auto-win is if you or Dann was a wolf in which case it still just comes down to ELO anyways so.

[OutWorldER]

i guess i think it's between bellaphant and project

What changed your mind about Jupiter?

I actually think Bella isn't likely to be scum here I'm kinda just between Jupiter and Project, favoring Project.

[OutWorldER]

I don't know actually

Just kinda felt like that was wrong but maybe that's my weakness to AtE showing

Also had times where I felt like Bella was wrong

What has you convinced on Bella?

Think her play over the last few days has been fairly townie. Even when Titus presented the auto-win she was still trying to solve, and I thought her response to Shiki's push felt townie.

With a doctor claim, provided the claim is outside of the strong town pool, can we whittle it down (each in our own minds) to 4 town reads, leaving two suspects?

If we can collectively agree on two strong town reads (Dann and Shiki (agreeing with 3082). Then the doctor claims (this relies upon the doctor not being Shiki or Dann), that takes it to 3 strong town. Then every other town individual knows they are the 4th town, which leaves two possibilities.

Then we just focus votes on the final two.

Is that something that works or helps, or is it too risky to reveal the doctor?

Bro just legit regurgitated everything I said in 3077

[OutWorldER]

read a bit and fonna make my thoughts as consice as possible cuz typing on a phone is painful
- t3 is the lim that makes the most mechanical sense
- hiwever i think his ate leans towny his reactions seem very genuine. im reluctant to vote him
- if titus doesnt die does this game turn into something like "follow the cop" but with jailkeeper? does doc have limited protects in a row or can we keep titus alive forever
- limpoop for me is between kurta, project, aisa, and maybe ccs havent seen much from thst slot

also no deaths AGAIN? is scum deliberately making no kills?? why are they doing this that makes no sense

also no deaths AGAIN? is scum deliberately making no kills?? why are they doing this that makes no sense

why do you think they are doing it?

that's the thing, i don't know
if i were scum here i'd almost certainly be on titus, but titus isn't dead yet. which is weird cuz she's and outed pr (no hate titus you're cool)
and we've gone three nights without kills which indicates that at least one of them was a no kill which doesn't make sense to me. only world i can see scum making a no kill is where they're at such a bad position that they don't want to get jailed, but scum would want to at least

try

, right? they're playing against wincon which is crazy bad for them and good for me, but. yk it seems like such a stupid play on all levels

also still don't understand this progression where Jupiter forgot that it was possible the doctor could just protect Titus over and over again

I feel like if Jupiter were scum here they'd be more aware of these types of role interactions and differences between this site vs. their home site.

I kinda just think it's Project for the 1000th time.

[OutWorldER]

I feel like if Jupiter were scum here they'd be more aware of these types of role interactions and differences between this site vs. their home site.

well yeah that's kind of what i mean

it seems not real

But what would be the strategical point of faking ignorance like that as scum? Especially since from Jupiter's posting all the way back in D1 they seem to be very much a stream of consciousness poster, I don't think Jupiter was trying to fake newb-towniness, especially since IIRC Jupiter wasn't really under pressure when that whole shebang went down?

[OutWorldER]

With a doctor claim, provided the claim is outside of the strong town pool, can we whittle it down (each in our own minds) to 4 town reads, leaving two suspects?

If we can collectively agree on two strong town reads (Dann and Shiki (agreeing with 3082). Then the doctor claims (this relies upon the doctor not being Shiki or Dann), that takes it to 3 strong town. Then every other town individual knows they are the 4th town, which leaves two possibilities.

Then we just focus votes on the final two.

Is that something that works or helps, or is it too risky to reveal the doctor?

Bro just legit regurgitated everything I said in 3077

Tbh because you post regarding doctor claim was separated from 3077, I didn’t even notice we’re saying the same thing. I think that tells you your read on me is wrong.

I think it’s fairly obvious I’m struggling to keep up or understand what’s going on here. I’m clearly not the mastermind behind all of this.

What makes it impossible for you as scum to not be able to keep up with the game? For the past like, what, 6 nights in a row now, scum has had no partners to talk to, only two real possible night actions to take (no-kill/shoot Titus), and no real ability to affect the game without losing since the past multiple days have come down to elimming JK targets and following PoE. There's no reason you can't be dis-invested from the game and scum, in fact I'd argue it's far more likely.

[OutWorldER]

both bella and jupiter were basically like "kill me" yesterday

I don't remember Bella being suicidal yesterday, huh?

If anything I think she's been consistently defending herself.

[OutWorldER]

both bella and jupiter were basically like "kill me" yesterday

I don't remember Bella being suicidal yesterday, huh?

If anything I think she's been consistently defending herself.

not ‘kill me’ but rather ‘jail me’

I'm looking through Bella's ISO and I don't see this either, am I blind?

[OutWorldER]

idk I think Jupiter's posting has just been generally townier over the past few days than Project's. I think Jupiter shows a lot of signs of wanting to solve but just not really knowing how to go about it.

[OutWorldER]

I was going to say I still wasn't opposed to the Jupiter lim but then I remembered Titus is dead and if I'm wrong about the PoE we just lose.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: Project

everything in my gut still just screams that it's him and none of his posting today has subdued that feeling

[OutWorldER]

theoretically we could have more than two if doc shoots correctly tonight (and does not get shot)

but more than likely it's Melo tommorow.

[OutWorldER]

theoretically we could have more than two if doc shoots correctly tonight (and does not get shot)

but more than likely it's Melo tommorow.

if doctor alive tomorrow don't sleep

what did she mean by this

[OutWorldER]

oh no sleep = no elim

that's the part that was confusing me

[OutWorldER]

if that were the case than either a) Titus jailed the target, unlikely given who she was jailing or b) Doc was never on Titus and miraculously guessing every NK target after N1

both are highly unlikely, so I'd say it's an infinitesimal chance that scum was targeting anybody other than Titus.

I'm not sure what the point of that question is though.

[OutWorldER]

i think scum just lol-shooting Titus every night is probably just the correct theory since in a setup with no Tracker/Watcher there's no punishment for doing so.

[OutWorldER]

off the back of 3217 I feel confident saying I don't think Jupiter can be scum here.

"dropping a kill on titus is so risky" is nonsense but it's townie nonsense I'm fairly sure.

[OutWorldER]

in an indirect way that got me thinking about if Doc should claim or not today.

Because the situation I'm worried about is we go to Melo and scum either claims Doc before the real doc or CC's the doc to try and secure the last mislim. I don't think it's super likely for that to happen unless scum was super confident in their position going into Melo though.

[OutWorldER]

But it doesn't make sense? Half way through he's saying dead townies are bad for scum because theyd be used for info/clears and then he says he'd leave bodies across the board.

These two statements do not conflict. Their saying that he personally wouldn't have been aware of kills clearing the JK target and sent shots anyways. Obviously it is objectively bad for scum to be killing anybody but Titus in the situation that's been going on for the past few days.

It's self-meta, essentially.

[OutWorldER]

Or rather, obvious to an experienced player, I should say.

[OutWorldER]

Because the situation I'm worried about is we go to Melo and scum either claims Doc before the real doc or CC's the doc to try and secure the last mislim. I don't think it's super likely for that to happen unless scum was super confident in their position going into Melo though.

hmhmhm, this would narrow the potential eliminations from 3 (the three non-doctors) to 2 (the two doctors) and! i assume(?) the real doctor would be able to show if asked to walk through various thought processes?

The "walk through various thought processes" part is negated by the fact that the literal only person Doc should have been targeting for the past six, possibly seven nights in a row was Titus. And if the real doc wasn't on Titus for some strange reason than they probably get limmed anyways because people probably just wouldn't believe them. This happened to me in a mini normal with an LJK who didn't protect me while I was an IC.

[OutWorldER]

Obviously it is objectively bad for scum to be killing anybody but Titus in the situation that's been going on for the past few days.

wait

can you walk me through this

to shoot for doc first you'd have to guess correctly on who that is, and if you guess wrong than Titus gets a clear, narrowing down her JK pool. Even if you guess right and kill doc, you'd still risk Titus jailing you when you go to shoot her.

Depending on scum's position just shooting Titus every night and hoping she jails Doc eventually is far less risky, and yes, I'm aware that that does somewhat implicate me since I've been mostly free of suspicion the entire game.

[OutWorldER]

to shoot for doc first you'd have to guess correctly on who that is, and if you guess wrong than Titus gets a clear, narrowing down her JK pool. Even if you guess right and kill doc, you'd still risk Titus jailing you when you go to shoot her.

Depending on scum's position just shooting Titus every night and hoping she jails Doc eventually is far less risky, and yes, I'm aware that that does somewhat implicate me since I've been mostly free of suspicion the entire game.

but if you only submit titus you can't win as long as the doctor protects the jailkeeper and the jailkeeper does not jail the doctor (unless of course schadd granted the scums a roleblocker or strongman due to an impassioned plea?) so your only possible win condition is town going completely offbook... which well it worked out for the scums, so!

idk the concession with upside theory seems plausible to me

Concession with upside or scum just confident Titus would jail doc before them, either/or really. I don't think it's impossible for either Jupiter or Project to be banking on the latter since they both seemed to be out of the purview of Titus's PoE.

[OutWorldER]

Although that reminds me that Titus seemed to be jailing consensus scum reads at times (outside of Skygazer for some reason who I think everyone had firmly sloted as town) so I am slightly worried that Project is the doc and Titus jailed him due to momentum building on him yesterday.

[OutWorldER]

this game has been long enough for me to have an orchestra event three times over the course of the game, a MUN conference twice, hospitalized once, and … well you get the idea can it please be over yet

are you the last scum? If so, we can end it for you right now

[OutWorldER]

I mean, consider the end results of both strategies.

Shoot Doc --> Shoot Titus would leave the remaining town with one or more clears that are mostly likely outside of the You/Me/Dann townblock. Scum likely loses from that position regardless.

In the scenario we're in the only clear we have is the doctor, who it's debatable should claim or not, and is potentially within the townblock described above, giving us less information to work with in this end-game. It's still a bad situation to be in unless the last scum is specifically one of Me/You/Dann, but theoretically more winnable than the other strategy if the last scum is in Bella/Jupiter/Project.

IDK, scum might not have thought this through as much as I have, I think the concession with upside theory is probably the most valid one.

[OutWorldER]

probably not, I think I just believe Bella when she says she would have conceded as scum. Paranoid about her though.

I still think it's just Project though.

[OutWorldER]

It's a combination of thinking the others in my lim pool are just townier than him (I mostly disagree with you about Jupiter, for example), some specific stuff I highlighted during D2 that I can't be arsed to grab the post for, and the fact that nothing he has posted since has ever dissuaded me from the tunnel. I think he slots in nicely to a lot of theories (the "concede with upside" theory that Shiki posted, for example) and just in general his posts, even today, really give me only the bare minimum impression of "solving", and even the content he has posted today is regurgitated from what I said, and I think Shiki also said it was a repeat of something she was saying earlier too.

[OutWorldER]

It's a combination of thinking the others in my lim pool are just townier than him (I mostly disagree with you about Jupiter, for example), some specific stuff I highlighted during D2 that I can't be arsed to grab the post for, and the fact that nothing he has posted since has ever dissuaded me from the tunnel. I think he slots in nicely to a lot of theories (the "concede with upside" theory that Shiki posted, for example) and just in general his posts, even today, really give me only the bare minimum impression of "solving", and even the content he has posted today is regurgitated from what I said, and I think Shiki also said it was a repeat of something she was saying earlier too.

I guess it’s like mildly concerning to me that you are still holding on to stuff from D2 but can’t resummarize it when asked

I don’t really know why regurgitating others’ posts is something more likely to come from scum either

Do you think Jupiter has been solving?

I'm mostly holding onto to stuff from D2 because D1 and D2 are where the majority of content is, and it's hard to resummarize because those days were all the way back in the very early days of November and December. This game has been going on for two months at this point, I'm somewhat drained of motivation to go back and reread the entire thing.

It's not just that he's regurgitating posts, it's that outside of stuff he copied the homework for he's failed to present anything else substantial. Project hasn't even presented so much as faint suspicion except a really vague post about Shiki earlier today.

I've said before that Jupiter's posting gives the impression of

wanting

to solve but not really knowing the way to go about it.

VOTE: OutWorldER

yeah i actually believe this makes the most sense rereading D1 and D2

How? Black was actively trying to turn things around on me when she and T3 were attempting to wagon Titus at the end of D1 after I called out her and T3. D2, I'll give you I waffled about the T3 elim for a bit, but so were a lot of people.

[OutWorldER]

I think he slots in nicely to a lot of theories (the "concede with upside" theory that Shiki posted, for example)

hm, does that really seem like a likely thought process from a newbie to you?

Maybe not that exact thought process but it doesn't seem wild that a newbie would just default to shooting the most prominent threat every night without putting much thought into it, especially in a scenario it seems like victory is out of reach.

and even the content he has posted today is regurgitated from what I said,

why do you think projectry's opening of today posts are more likely to have been scums reworking your posts rather than a mindmeld type of situation?

I didn't consider this beforehand and I after a pause for consideration you're correct that it could be. Is there a reason that he couldn't be mafia and have the same thought process (especially one that multiple people have come to), though?

[OutWorldER]

I don't have the time to go point by point but the extreme fundamental issue I have with your case is that it's entirely cherry-picked; Taking my switching stance from Kurta to T3 as an example, in between those 50 posts from myself was you, yourself, proposing a theory that Kurtapika was a mislim because the wagon had stalled with no counter. I agreed with that theory, and in fact me agreeing with that theory came up several times later in the day and formed a core part of my TR on Kurta until Titus jailed him.

This is case the majority of the time I switched stances. Somebody said something, and I agreed with it and changed my mind. There are

69

(nice) posts and over 24 hours between me voting T3 out of a willingness to consolidate, to genuinely thinking he's scum when he posted his case against Titus. Framing it as "literally two posts later" is frankly disingenuous.

[OutWorldER]

What makes my stances more convenient than the stances of anybody else who is/was in the game? In the T3 wagon example, what singles my stances around T3 out as more convenient than anybody else who was indecisive on T3 or who were outright defending T3?

Reading through your wall again just reads like you've gotten paranoid about me and taken to looking at my posts in the most uncharitable light possible.

[OutWorldER]

Dann, could you at least take a second look at Project? My opinion still holds strong: I think the majority of votes he's placed have been bad and he's barely solved the entire game past D1. I thinks his E-1 vote on T3 was bad, his votes on both shaddowez and especially Jupiter were also bad.

[OutWorldER]

pretty sure everyone figured it out already but I'm a VT.

if I get hammered here y'all better not let Project win this game on god

[OutWorldER]

outworlder, can you please summarize your scumcase on projectry?

I feel I've been asked this 100 times this game lol


I think his posts both around the Black elim (1112) and his T3 vote were bad (1555), and of the living players his T3 vote is easily the worst on that wagon. His Jupiter vote after previously noting no suspicion for that slot at all I think is terrible and reeks of opportunism. And for the rest of the time in his ISO he's just coasting by and pulling the newbie card for why he isn't trying to solve. It feels less like he wants to solve and isn't able to like, like how I feel about Jupiter, it doesn't feel like he's making the attempt. He very clearly has reads of some kind (his reads on Dann and your slot, for example), but refuses to try and sort them in his head to arrive at any sort of stance he might have to commit to, and his responses to people calling him out on this are overly diplomatic and appeal-y.

[OutWorldER]

There's only a bit over 24 hours before day end, so a decision does need to be reached soon.

[OutWorldER]

1112 feels like you wanted to get town cred post-hammer without TMIing that you knew Black was going to flip scum. That you had never really indicated any kind of position on Black beforehand makes it suspicious to me.

I'm not just referring to your defense around the newbie card, I'm talking about every time you've defended yourself, especially from me. Someone's been on your ass since D2 for what you seem to believe are bunk reasons, yet you don't even seem to show a hint of frustration, which seems especially odd given other newbies I've played with and even taking the example of Jupiter in this game. If your last scum though, the whole laying down and taking it, as what you've essentially done, makes a lot more sense.

[OutWorldER]

Spoiler: Project Quotes

Let the game begin I guess.

I’m trying to get my head around what that kill means in terms of the doctor, but not sure whether that is wise to say. Do we openly discuss or is it better to keep quiet about the doctor to not direct scum?

Surely the doctor didn’t move off of Titus. The only doctor claim we have was Afrayed (Shiki). Even though it wasn’t clear how serious that claim was, surely Titus wouldn’t risk Shiki as a target.

So if we believe Titus wouldn’t target Shiki, then Titus jailed someone else, who must have been the doctor, meaning Afrayed’s claim was false.

But what does that say about Shiki?

With a doctor claim, provided the claim is outside of the strong town pool, can we whittle it down (each in our own minds) to 4 town reads, leaving two suspects?

If we can collectively agree on two strong town reads (Dann and Shiki (agreeing with 3082). Then the doctor claims (this relies upon the doctor not being Shiki or Dann), that takes it to 3 strong town. Then every other town individual knows they are the 4th town, which leaves two possibilities.

Then we just focus votes on the final two.

Is that something that works or helps, or is it too risky to reveal the doctor?

Above quotes make me pretty sure Project isn't Doc, unless he's been good at faking it this entire game. If he does claim doc with no CC than ya'll can just speedlim my ass tbh. But I think I have a decent guess of who Doc is at this point.

[OutWorldER]

I'm not sure if I should say who I think Doc is but I'm pretty intensely confident about it and I do not think it's Project.

I'm going to bed, kill me or kill Project idgaf at this point.

[OutWorldER]

3 hours, is Jupiter or tired online? Bella?

[OutWorldER]

oh wait tired is already voting Project, my ass cannot read.

uhhhh, if it gets to like 30 mins left with no hammer Dann you can vote me and I'll hammer myself? I guess? I'm not sure if that's better or worse than no lim here.

[OutWorldER]

Self-hammer removes you from the pool of You/Bella/Jupiter which is where the final scum has to be (outside of a scenario where one of Dann/Shiki slot is the final wolf but in that case we've just lost anyways). So it's mostly in town's interest for you to be limmed even if you're town here since you're just going to be a distraction in Melo otherwise.

[OutWorldER]

I think if you're town though than Dann is just correct and it's Jupiter.

[OutWorldER]

I wonder how much dead thread is screaming at me.

[OutWorldER]

if I didn't tunnel hard on Project today we'dve probably got Jupiter today

[OutWorldER]

actually wait

[OutWorldER]

idk why they'd be screaming at you over anyone else tbh

it's not the worst if we no-lim i guess but i'd prefer a project lim even if he's town here just because i think he's going to be a distraction for town in endgame if he is (sorry project)

I can self hammer if this view is collectively held.

For everyone else currently around - do yous want a no-lim or does liming me (although town) help move yous further forward?

don't hammer outworlder please

pinging all 3 of you because if all 3 of you are up we can theoretically speedlim Jupiter right here

worst case scenario we no-lim which probably is what would've happened anyways

worth a try?

[OutWorldER]

hi i'm here do people want me to vote project

day 8 ends in (expired on 2024-01-22 17:40:25)[/b]

[OutWorldER]

i mean flashwagon me if you want idc VOTE: jupiter
i know sure as hell that if project isnt scum i do NOT wanna go to elo

just vote Project please. I don't feel like no-elimming here, I want to know Project's alignment, not sure TP can be convinced to vote you, and we still have to sort Bella.

I think Project's hedginess around self-hammering also feels scummy still so

[OutWorldER]

like I still think there's a good chance Dann is on the money but convincing TP of that with an hour left to go in deadline doesn't feel wise.

[OutWorldER]

i mean flashwagon me if you want idc VOTE: jupiter
i know sure as hell that if project isnt scum i do NOT wanna go to elo

just vote Project please. I don't feel like no-elimming here, I want to know Project's alignment, not sure TP can be convinced to vote you, and we still have to sort Bella.

I think Project's hedginess around self-hammering also feels scummy still so

You’ve just got it out for me man.

If you are town here than self-hammer is playing to your wincon for the reasons I laid out previously

Self-hammer removes you from the pool of You/Bella/Jupiter which is where the final scum has to be (outside of a scenario where one of Dann/Shiki slot is the final wolf but in that case we've just lost anyways). So it's mostly in town's interest for you to be limmed even if you're town here since you're just going to be a distraction in Melo otherwise.

[OutWorldER]

30 minutes to deadline

[OutWorldER]

alright and now for schadd to reveal I am actually the secret executioner that was added to this game and the game will now end with my victory

for real talk though sorry if you're town man things just played out a little fucked up this day

[OutWorldER]

I also think that Jupiter self-voting and then ghosting the thread could be him banking on one of TP/Project not voting in the case me and Dann tried to get the flash wagon to materalize.

But it does have to be between them and Bella and critically looking at Bella should be priority number 1 I think tomorrow because I think she's otherwise gone under the radar

[OutWorldER]

tbh though it probably is just Jupiter

[OutWorldER]

the thing is like

if Jupiter's scum he gets literally nothing out of not letting the mislim go through on Project if Jup's scum and Project's town

so idk

[OutWorldER]

Well here's hoping I can save someone tonight because if that happens we can actually just go through Bella/Jup I think and autowin

[OutWorldER]

SHIT MEANT TO WRITE DOC NOT I

[OutWorldER]

Alright so before anyone does anything, Doc should claim.

I think we vote Jupiter here regardless but Bella still needs to be looked at. I'll try to get around to that sometime tonight.

[OutWorldER]

I'm not Doc, I was faking it to try and draw the NK so that Doc would heal me and we'd go into this day with 5 alive. I literally had already claimed VT earlier in the day and was kind of just hoping that the last scum was not paying too much attention. It was a gambit to try and put the game in autowin.

[OutWorldER]

oh, i forgot about your vt claim. i should have trusted my instinct and healed dannflor. sorry.

wow AK was hard throwing when he claimed doc then

VOTE: bella but im not gonna be salty if yall wanna lim me. as long as tired person can clutch a protect at night i'm willing to be today's lim

scum literally just shoots TP tonight and wins what are you talking about?

even in the event you're unaware that doc's can't heal themselves, why would you, as a townie, be fine with being elimmed to gamble on a 1 in 3 shot that just puts us right back in ELO?

[OutWorldER]

im pretty sure this isnt throwing right

fairy sure this is following normal game guidelines in which docs cannot target themselves. In which case yes this is throwing if you are town.

again though, even if docs could self-target, why are you comfortable leaving the game up to a 1 in 3 shot?

[OutWorldER]

also yes in the opening post of this game all the sample role pm's are posted where it specifically says "another player"

[OutWorldER]

it probably leans more town than scum, I think? IDK, there's a nagging feeling in my brain that if Jupiter was scum here they'd be more invigorated by the prospect of getting into ELO after both teammates dying early.

this might be insulting but I also feel like Jupiter would've fallen for the NK bait if he were scum here.

But I'm mostly waiting for Bella to post.

[OutWorldER]

What makes you confident that my Day 8 play couldn't be a bluff to gain town points, were I scum?

[OutWorldER]

Bella being conspicuously absent for the last half of yesterday and being absent today pings me

but it might just be that she's not able to around for some reason

[OutWorldER]

I'm torn between being screamed at by Dann in post-game for not voting obvscum Jupiter or having everyone be mildly annoyed that we lost to Bella

[OutWorldER]

ok seriously tho do you guys actually want me to reread the whole game or what

uh I guess maybe you could read like, D1, D2, and then yesterday

the only days that really like, mattered I guess, because every other day was mostly autopiloting whoever Titus had jailed

[OutWorldER]

pooky do you think Bella would have a reason to kill dann

[OutWorldER]

okay so answer as if bella was scum

[OutWorldER]

I'm going to VOTE: Kurtapika here to consolidate. I'm comfortable here or on shaddowez.

I absolutely hate this because voting solely to consolidate feels like he's pushing the blame for what happens if this wagon goes thru to "well it was just for consolidation!"

note here that this is fifth vote in this game state;

VOTE COUNT 1.6 !

Kurtapika (5): Titus, Dannflor, Bellaphant, Aisa, OutWorldER
shaddowez (2): JupiterXV, Black
Bellaphant (1): T3
T3 (1): Nono
Dannflor (1): Skygazer
JupiterXV (1): shaddowez
Skygazer (1): Kurtapika
Black (1): Afrayed Knott

not voting (1): ProjEctRy

with Dannflor/Titus both pushing Kurta at this point and being loud in thread about it.

At the time Dann was also loudly complaining about everybody pushing their own vanity wagons and everybody saying that "they were having trouble finding scumreads" and I was pretty sure both Dann and Titus were town so I got on board to be a team player.

Note that I also jumped off when when Dann presented a theory that Kurta might be a mislim even when Titus still wanted him

T3 is probably town.

Curious to hear why you think so

Trying to jumpstart discussion in RVS, even if on a fairly reachy basis, feels fairly townie to me. In general I think scum are more likely to wait for other people to start pushing wagons rather than try to jumpstart one themselves. I also think the reachiness of it is actually +town since I feel like scum would probably be angling for a good first impression here.

^ this is such a reach to make about an early townread but the bonus kicker is this conversation between him and black 2 pages later;

I feel good about Aisa so far. It feels like she's engaging with people in a cooperative and amicable way and it feels like she's trying to genuinely figure them out

I like T3 here too. 15 feels like he's mocking bella considering his read in 26 which is kinda mean but not necessarily scum indicative. I like Project's read on T3 in 91 and I had similar thoughts when reading through, so I like Project so far as well

I agree with OWER's read on Jupiter in 86 and I like how inquisitive and engaged OWER feels

Nothing is really pinging me as scummy yet

Your T3 read feels odd here, as 91, a post you say you had similar thoughts to, voices suspicion on T3. You say you like T3, but your only point is early posts for which your only point is "not necessarily scum indicative". What has T3 done that is townie, in your opinion?

I don't think this question makes sense at all here

It's a reach but it's also literally the 44th post of the game, in RVS.

What about the question doesn't make sense?

[OutWorldER]

still paranoid but i'm also pretty sure if pooky's slot were scum here he has no reason to try and push me instead of jupiter

[OutWorldER]

In that specific instance where I was asking Black that question I got two posts confused (Project's 76 where he voiced suspicion about T3 and Project's 91 where he says he townreads T3) and as such I thought Black's post didn't make sense (since I thought she was saying that she agreed with 76 and the latter.). So that's why I asking her why she townread T3 since my dumbass got two posts confused and thought she was being inconsistent.

I'm also not sure where you're getting the impression that from 44 onwards I was hard-locked on a T3 townread I barely mention him past that until the end of Day 1/Day 2.

[OutWorldER]

what I really hate is how outworld reacted to it right there and then and

said it must be coming from Town!Jupiter

and then Dannflor was like hell no.

where did I say this.

are you referring to this post?

the thing is like

if Jupiter's scum he gets literally nothing out of not letting the mislim go through on Project if Jup's scum and Project's town

so idk

where 3 posts earlier I said:

tbh though it probably is just Jupiter

[OutWorldER]

what I really hate is how outworld reacted to it right there and then and

said it must be coming from Town!Jupiter

and then Dannflor was like hell no.

where did I say this.

are you referring to this post?

the thing is like

if Jupiter's scum he gets literally nothing out of not letting the mislim go through on Project if Jup's scum and Project's town

so idk

where 3 posts earlier I said:

tbh though it probably is just Jupiter

I am going to need you to show up to realtime interact with me at least one of the next nights. I am free after 9pm EST today, tommorrow, tuesday etc. you can bring as many questions as you want me to answer.

alternatively if you are not available any nights I am going to need some times where you are available so we can actually talk this game out. I am reasonably certain I can figure out your alignment if you give me the time and I will not tolerate you deciding to ghost me

i mean I'm here right now.

the only question I can really think of is why do you think I callout and discredit my own scumteam on D1 if I'm scum. Dann flipped flop back and forth on that point.

[OutWorldER]

Like maybe OWER thinks dannflor is the doctor for whatever reason ???? - like I guess if OWER is mafia and he thinks there's no way afayeed knott claims doctor like the way he did AND dannflor's townread of shiki has to do with Dannflor thinking that Shiki is pretending to be doctor to shield doctor dannflor?!?!? like thats a really far out there thing. I honestly dont know. Its really wild to me that scum even made that nightkill because if Dannflor is not the doctor then he is one of the

most

likely targets for being doctored and if you shoot into a doc protect there you get completely blown out many many times.

i will actually say that I did think Dann was the doctor when I made my fake-slip at the end of yesterday, which is why I even made the attempt because I was actually pretty sure he died regardless

my thinking was that since Project/Bella/Jupiter hadn't claimed doc and Titus had no reason to jail the claimed Doc in AK's slot than she had probably gotten paranoid about Dann and jailed him.

[OutWorldER]

i mean flashwagon me if you want idc VOTE: jupiter
i know sure as hell that if project isnt scum i do NOT wanna go to elo

just vote Project please. I don't feel like no-elimming here, I want to know Project's alignment, not sure TP can be convinced to vote you, and we still have to sort Bella.

I think Project's hedginess around self-hammering also feels scummy still so

I want you to explain this post

i assume you mean the last sentence. At the time there was a limpool of Project/Jupiter/Bella. It was like 30 minutes to deadline. If we no-limmed than Project stuck around to be a distraction in endgame. Elimming him even if he was town narrowed down the limpool. Project made a post saying he'd self-hammer "if the view was collectively held", which read to me as really hedgey (maybe that's the wrong word) because it relied on his definition of "collectively". It's weak and reachy, but I had also been tunneled on Project since D2 at that point

[OutWorldER]

the only question I can really think of is why do you think I callout and discredit my own scumteam on D1 if I'm scum. Dann flipped flop back and forth on that point.

I don't have enough meta knowledge of how you interact with partners to really know whether you discredit your own scumteam.

if there is a sequence of play you believe to be extremely unlikely to come from you as mafia I am happy to look at it in the context of what is going on in the game.

I mean, yeah, I think the entire sequence on page 40 isn't within my scumrange at all. granted I only have two scumgames on this site, but in both I never really went against my partners super heavily like I did there

[OutWorldER]

Like an hour left and post 3420 gave me the perception that TP wasn't sold on the jupiter scumcase

in retrospect though it seems like they might've just not understood it though oops

[OutWorldER]

????

ever since AK claimed Doc, even under the impression that AK was fake-claiming (or well, more like hoping he was), I had townread Shiki/TP slot

where did you get the impression I ever thought TP was mafia?

[OutWorldER]

TP had been like the most uncontroversial townread ever since that doc claim

[OutWorldER]

oh I thought TP was theprojectry rofl I didnt even know who you were talking about

for some reason I thought projectry's name was theprojectry and not just projectry oops

local pooky continues to piss on the poor

[OutWorldER]

i mean, i'll be honest, at that point I wasn't and I think that comes across from my EOD posting where I was more hoping that I was still right rather than being actually convinced of myself.

but at that point in the deadline I was fully under the impression it was kill project or no elim and Dann and I were both in agreement it was just better to yeet project.

[OutWorldER]

Dann made some posts

I'm pretty uneasy about the dead gamestate with no counter wagon

it makes me think kurtapika is either a miselimination or scum is currently hard bussing him

I kind of want to go back to T3

I pretty much only moved off of him on the condition that pressure on a V/LA slot wasn't doing anything and eventually he'd come back

but he has not

I don't really want to let him just lurk the day phase out

and I pretty wholeheartedly agreed with them. Titus and Dann were both my top town reads at that point in time so I was fine sheeping them and I thought Dann's logic made sense.

[OutWorldER]

I literally cannot use my own words because it really wasn't my vote. it was a hard sheep of Dann. none of my thoughts pertaining to that post are original to me

how is it "opportunistic" T3 literally flipped scum?

[OutWorldER]

ok but you didn't mention T3 at all in terms of being a potential lim prior to that point; you mentioned him as an early townread and then moved on without really talking about him at all until Dannflor veers off to vote for him.

T3 went on a decent-length V/LA right after the initial 200 posts or so, he was literally not a participant in the game for a good part of D1 and so I didn't spend much effort thinking about him until later

[OutWorldER]

the leading wagon was Kurtapika, you voted for Kurta putting him at 6. then Aisa/Dannflor moved off - Dannflor changed his mind on Kurta - pushing the mislim out of reach so the "oppurtunity" to shove that mislim is gone, and your vote moved off it.

I don't understand why you would say you agree about something if you didnt actually think about it. Agreeing means "yes I

also

think this is true" as I understand it. If you're outsourcing all your thinking to Dannflor then you don't ever really need to tell him you agree with him?

i have no idea what you're trying to say with either of these sentences. Aisa/Dann moved off Kurta, so scum!me decides...to be the second vote on their own partner's wagon? Instead of trying to convince Dann to stay on Kurta, or do literally anything else?

The second sentence is just indecipherable to me

That case is extremely weak-sauce and I think the T3/Black partner theory gains more merit by the post.

That case is extremely weak-sauce and I think the T3/Black partner theory gains more merit by the post.

Why is Titus town?

Because you and T3 are scum.

can you walk me through your thought process here

T3's case to me seemed reliant on meta that just totally did not fit what my own meta-read of Titus was. Throughout the whole game I thought Titus was playing very close to her standard meta from games I had played previously with her (though a long time ago) like Among Us mafia and that one mini normal I was scum in. Every point unrelated to meta just seemed reachy and weak

Black's vote to me made it seem obvious to me it was an attempt at a scum counter-wagon on Titus because I had played with Black in a normal just before this game and thought it would be incredibly unlikely for her to be persuaded by a weak case, so I made the hard call out against both of them.

[OutWorldER]

my concern is that your progression from I am sheeping Dannflor on T3 -> T3/Black are the scum team is not a real progression but something planned in a scum PT to salvage a losing game state

How does this make sense from a scum strategy perspective? Page 40 is me attempting to (and I like to think I did to pad my own ego) shut down the Titus counter-wagon that both were trying to get going. How would that be salvaging a losing game-state?

[OutWorldER]

also like

the theoretical scum strategy here would require for me to volunteer to deep-wolf which is something that I absolutely would not do

because I freak out and give up and believe I am about to die once I get under the slightest bit of suspicion

[OutWorldER]

my concern is that your progression from I am sheeping Dannflor on T3 -> T3/Black are the scum team is not a real progression but something planned in a scum PT to salvage a losing game state

How does this make sense from a scum strategy perspective? Page 40 is me attempting to (and I like to think I did to pad my own ego) shut down the Titus counter-wagon that both were trying to get going. How would that be salvaging a losing game-state?

i dont think a titus counterwagon existed

Spoiler: quotes

T3, why are you scumreading me?

I noticed that you hyperfocused on Kurtapika earlier and rarely, if ever provided much commentary or reads on other players. Another thing I noticed was that you aren't doing VCA and that your reads are 'muted,' in a sense. You have your theory about me/Kurta/Black but you're only really going out and pushing Kurta. It seems very different to MBOS 13 when you were absolutely convinced that Norwee/Dwlee/me were scum - you really pushed us hard and you had more substantial reasoning than you do for me/Kurta/Black:
Subject: mini theme 2229: MBOS 13 schweppes' pulpy potions daya 5

The three of them are locktowning each other based on spacious reasoning. They don't interact organically.

[citation needed]

-Retti

For example,

NorwegianboyEE: The three of us aren't locktowning each other.
Also NorwegianboyEE: My PoE includes none of them. Titus is there though.

T3: We aren't hard defending each other.
Also T3: Puts me as lock scum for my reads.

Previously,

NorwegianboyEE: Dwlee, your read on Titus has no reason just tunneling.
Dwlee: So what?
NorwegianboyEE: That's ok you'll see Titus as town.

Later:

NoweiganboyEE: It's Titus and Fairy Circle.

---

This is scum trying to chain us and/or vig me.

Your play here also differs from what I most recently saw of you in Secrets of the Anukat Topaz, in that game you, again, had very strong scumreads and awkwardly pushed those scumreads in a scummy way such that you eventually got voted out. As Dannflor remarked on earlier, your tone definitely feels slightly more relaxed here compared to your tone in Secrets of the Anukat Topaz, which came across to me as extremely wooden. This is a pretty weak point because when I spectated Datisi's University I found your tone as scum to transcend into an entirely different dimension of wooden.

I also strongly disliked your progression here:

I also believe kurtapika is largely a town driven wagon

Which makes the non existence of a counter wagon pretty weird

The nearest we’ve come is skygazer

T3 has been vla and the third won't use their limited cache to create a counter. They've played passively with their vote to try and get a counter going to no avail.

VOTE: T3

Between these two posts, the only thing that changed was Aisa saying that Kurta is town and OWER voting me. While you did say that Kurta not having English as a first language makes you think that he is townier, that doesn't address the bulk of your argument against Kurta so I don't buy that you unvoted because of a changed read. I also don't buy that you could have unvoted because the day was ending and the consensus was on me. At that point, there were still 48 hours left in the day, and while the momentum was on me, Kurta was the bigger wagon.

VOTE: Titus

I feel better about Titus than Skygazer actually.

I've been thinking Titus could be scum here and I like this case from T3. I'm on board with this

VOTE: Titus

what do you think T3 and Black were attempting to do here pooky

[OutWorldER]

okay but like

you do recognize that they made the attempt to start one, right? why are you being so semantical about this

[OutWorldER]

okay so what's T3 and Black's motivations for casing/voting Titus if they weren't trying to counterwagon there

[OutWorldER]

a) how would Black know that this distancing gambit would work

b) how are you confident it was even Black's idea in the first place

c) what has made you convinced that T3/Black were pulling a 5head strategy to position a theoretical scum!me as a deepwolf instead of just a flailing shot in the dark

[OutWorldER]

it just feels too convenient to me that you're relatively hands off and barely here during d1

make popins to vote for kurta twice when his wagon reaches 5/6 votes respectively. and then you suddenly swing to the "right solution" and black's just there to do some weird song and dance with you?

it just feels covenient and like wrong.

so I'm scum because I caught scum at the wrong time???

[OutWorldER]

your entire argument predicates on the basis that you know exactly what both T3 and Black were thinking at the exact time they made those posts 2 months ago, and you've consequently latched onto this explanation that all the posts on page 40 are part of this super 5-dimensional scum strategy instead of literally any other, or more likely explanation.

[OutWorldER]

I need to go to bed and frankly I also need to step back as well because I keep having to retype my posts to get rid of crude words; at this point I just feel like you just decided I was scum when you replaced in and are only engaging with me out of obligation at this point

i do think you're probably town because your play here reminds me of among us mafia which is like the only frame of reference I have for your town game, and I also just don't feel like you'd expend the effort to go after me if you were scum here in this position.

that basically only leaves jupiter as my vote so

VOTE: Jupiter

good night