Open 410 Trouble in Paradise Game Over TOWN WIN

[Jal]

This is the best thread.

[Jal]

Vijay has a point

I see Chrimi hasn't confirmed yet. Were you trying to delay the start of the thread so you could talk to your scum buddies longer in the QT?

Yeah, no need to answer.

VOTE: Chrimi

Jailkeeper - Take 'em both away

Time to go celebrate by eating some orange chicken.

[Jal]

Oh. So you're already in jail, eh?

[Jal]

Breaking the game doesn't seem fun anyhow.

Oh. So you're already in jal, eh?

I read it like this and I was like 0_o
Accidental innuendos ftw.

That is mildly disturbing, considering our probable age gap.

[Jal]

Seems to me you're latching onto the most simplest thing in an attempt to make someone else look scummier than you.

[Jal]

Also it's nice to see Jal being a hypocrite

How am I being a hypocrite? What does this have to do with what I said?

[Jal]

I said:

Seems to me you're latching onto the most simplest thing in an attempt to make someone else look scummier than you.

I never said you were scum, nor did I say that in an attempt to portray you as such. If you believed that was what I was doing, it's interesting that you didn't deny it. Are you scum?

Are you voting for Gen_Wolf because you actually believe he is scum?

Gen needs to cool down. We don't need any one claiming or being voted off prematurely.

[Jal]

Vijay

:

Ah fuck it.

VOTE: OOTN

You town or scum?

Wait. Was this an attempt to quick hammer him with this post?

TvK

:

With this I was pointing out that I thought there was a major similarity with the last time we played together. Om was town there and flailed almost exactly the same way as he was doing here.

So you think he is townie and you still have your vote on him? Yup.

VOTE: TvK

[Jal]

Om, what exactly is your case on Gen_Wolf? I'm barely seeing one.

Why do you want to end the day so early?

[Jal]

You make it sound like he had to white knight me and defend me because I'm his scumbuddy and was about to be lynched.

Eh. It didn't read to me that he was insinuating scum buddies. Although, I don't understand the reasoning behind him believing you should have protected TvK. I think think that is scum motivated though.

Gen_Wolf

: What the hell? What point are you trying to prove? Also, Kondi took his vote off of you. Do you really think either LS or Om is scum?

[Jal]

Edit:

I

don't

think that is scum motivated though.

[Jal]

I'm not getting a scum vibe from Kondi at all. Don't care for the votes on him either. I'm not fully convinced of the Gen_Wolf wagon. TvK's claim will have to wait until later

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lastsurvivor

I don't really care for him asking others to interpret TvK's response before placing a vote on TvK himself. Admittedly, most of this vote is due to gut.

[Jal]

The Kondi mini bandwagon just feels off - whether it's due to Lastsurvivor or PV I'm unsure. PV hasn't posted much content and I feel Lastsurvivor was a bit off in the timing of his vote. I'm not completely sold on the TvK claim myself, but I'm not willing to lynch him over it today.

TvK

: Who do you think is scummy?

[Jal]

I'm going to look over Kondi later today after my class. He has always seemed flip floppy so I just took it as Kondi being Kondi. Of course, I've yet to know his alignment in any game I've been with him. I'll post more (useful) content later.

[Jal]

Lastsurvivor

:

And I was still the first person to vote him, so it's not like I let a wagon form and then quietly slipped on.

It seems unusual you weren't taking the lead on the lynch. Why ask others first before taking the leap?

Kondi

:

I disagree with LS that your reads are good. Most of your list has left the majority of the town open to be scum down the line. Shotgun, Lastsurvivor, Gen_Wolf, Jal, PV, TvK - While giving barely any definitive reason for finding them scummy, with the exception of TvK. By the looks of it, most of your reads also seem to be heavily based on RVS interactions, which I question the usefulness of. Your reads, at most, is a list of very vague suggestions that has no good reasoning behind them and has barely any substance for others to build on. No one can really criticize or agree with them. There's nothing to work with. You don't even provide an actual reason for why I am scum.

Why did you originally vote for Vijay and think he's scummy?

I have a feeling Jal is scum if TvK is not based on reactions.

More vagueness. What reactions are those specifically?

[Jal]

Kondi

:

And if you must ask, you've hinted at being the Jailkeeper. That's what "you or TvK" is based on.

Wait - what? Where? Also, why would hinting at JK make you suspicious?

Lastsurvivor

:

There were two interpretations of the post and I wanted to see if anyone was going to push the much less obvious one TvK proposed, essentially. I won't claim it was a reaction test, because it wasn't, but more so seeing if others saw what I saw.

Which could have been similarly accomplished by voting him and asking the same question to others. Why wait for others validation before voting?

Jal's placed himself in a convenient spot in that he's placing suspicion on the top two bandwagons (myself and Kondi). I think he's bussing Kondi though, really. I propose Jal/Kondi as my "called it" team.

Where have I said Kondi is suspicious? I said earlier:

I'm going to look over Kondi later today after my class. He has always seemed flip floppy so I just took it as Kondi being Kondi.

Which is what I did - looked him over. Just because I question something/someone doesn't essentially mean I am suspicious. Keep on twistin' the motivations behind my posts.

[Jal]

PV

Since Kondi seems like he's trying to suspect TvK while not pushing the issue, I was thinking he might be the JK trying not to out himself.

Why did you keep your vote on Kondi if you were thinking he was the real JK?

[Jal]

Those were jokes.

[Jal]

Kondi

:

I have a feeling Jal is scum if TvK is not based on reactions.

How do my ISOs 1 and 2 even qualify as

reactions

?

Well, since you're denying that they were breadcrumbs, I guess my theory goes down the dump. The teams are still entirely possible, though.

If your suspicion of me is based mainly on perceived breadcrumbs, then most of your original team possibilities fall through. In general, most of your read and team possibilities are so vague, of course the rest of your teams still seem entirely possible.

Om

:

This isn't the normal kondi behaviour either.

In what way do you see Kondi acting differently?

[Jal]

Lastsurvivor

:

I've already explained why I did what I did.

You're avoiding answering the question. I'll restate it again for you: Why wait for others validation before voting and not after? For wanting to see if others saw what you saw, why did you wait for only

one

person to post their interpretation?

Nah, it doesn't make sense.

It's intriguing that me stating why I voted for you and asking two questions regarding it to get a better feel for

why

you did it so I can confirm/unconfirm my suspicions is somehow "making a mountain out of a mole hole." Scum getting anxious?

I'm going to look over Kondi later today after my class. He has always seemed flip floppy so I just took it as Kondi being Kondi. Of course, I've yet to know his alignment in any game I've been with him. I'll post more (useful) content later.

The sentence you cut out ("He's always flip floppy

BUT I DON'T REALLY KNOW HIS ALIGNMENT SO DUN DUN DUNNN"

) is what made me think you were placing yourself in a position to cast suspicion on both wagons.

This misconstrues my post. My original post was in direct response to drmyshotgun's post 241 and Om's post 250 wherein suspicion is cast on Kondi due to his behavior. My post is stating that I'll look over Kondi today (to see what everyone else is seeing), as up to that point Kondi's behavior is similar to what I've seen from him (and thus I see him as townie), but I don't know his alignment

in any game I've been with him

(I already said prior I in post 223 I don't get scum vibes on him

this game

), and thus why I'm going-over his posts once again (to see if he is actually acting differently, but so far I only see town).

Can you really tell me you aren't suspicious of Kondi? Sure, you never say it, but shit you might as well have.

In that post, me pointing out and disagreeing with Kondi's reads, and getting him to clarify one of his read changes does not constitute suspicion. I was trying to better understand Kondi's thinking behind his reads. I had to do this because his reads are so vague, which is why I pointed that out.

I still feel the same regarding Kondi's behavior after more probing.

The only suspicion I was casting in that post was of you. In post 254 you called his reads good. Seriously? Most of his scum reads/teams had no reasoning behind them, which your criticized him for previously in post 183. What?

[Jal]

Lastsurvivor

:

I find it interesting that Jal was on the TvK wagon. Me asking for other's people's input before I voted wasn't bad then. In fact, he totally sheeped me. But now that the dust has cleared on that wagon, it's suddenly scummy that I did so. Aight.

Ha. I never sheeped you. That would imply mindlessly following your lead. My vote on Tvk was not because of the scum slip ordeal. It was because he kept his vote on Om even though he thought Om was town. Stop misconstruing what happened and making shit up.

Also, I always thought that your post post 123 was on the scum side - at the time I only thought TvK staying by his vote to be scummier. I evaluated GW, found the wagon wanting, thus I voted for you.

Instead of copying and pasting #91 and going "excuse me", how about you explain how exactly that sentence is an attempt to make Om look scummy? How is it even scummy?

As for the rest of your post, it's funny how now after I voted and pushed you a tad, that now you vote for me. HMMMMM. I guess it would be easier to lynch the person most suspicious of you than to kill them during the night and gain further suspicion.

[Jal]

Lastsurvivor

:

I don't know. I just did. It's not important. Can you please explain why doing that is scummy? You're taking something so small and irrelevant and making something huge out of it.

Also, you're really accusing me of being anxious scum? You've totally got nothing.

I originally voted you for it because I was unclear of your motivations behind this action since what occurred seemed unusual. As I said, I was questioning you regarding it so I could better confirm/unconfirm my suspicions. Your reaction to my questions along with your vote are further suspect.

Also, sometimes it's the "small and irrelevant" things that catch scum in the first place.

AKA, I didn't really read his list in depth when I read it.

You have yet to further comment on it or change your opinion of Kondi's reads. One can therefore assume, that after catching up you still feel his reads are "good."

Oh always? And you never said anything?

Sure I did: post 223. I already explained my reasoning for the timing.

Did you even read the post? You said you weren't trying to make his posts scummy. But in the first post, you said he was trying to make others look scummier than him. I, you know, said that in the post.

Nope. We're not going to play this game with you turning this back onto me. Explain to me how saying:

Seems to me you're latching onto the most simplest thing in an attempt to make someone else look scummier than you.

... is an attempt to portray Om as scummy? I want to hear your reasoning here. Also, how is my saying this even scummy? There is a reason this exchange between Om and I was dropped. Taking old discussions and making something out of nothing initially there in an attempt to push a weak lynch is just reaching at this point.

[Jal]

Kondi

: How exactly is this game too much for you?

Lastsurvivor

:

Jal, how often do you accuse people of OMGUS in your games? Or the other typically basic and wikiesque tells, such as "anxious scum" etc?

Feel free to do the legwork yourself. While you're doing that, try taking some more time looking up things to use in your next attempt to discredit me. This stuff isn't flying.

[Jal]

Lastsurvivor

:

f you read the post I quoted, I ask for clarification on a bunch of his reads. No, his reads weren't good. Jesus, Jal, you aren't this dense.

Asking a question regarding Kondi's reads does not negate your early contradictory motivated statement, "Kondi's reads are good" nor does it give the impression of otherwise. You made a big slip here.

Furthermore, the only questions you asked Kondi in the post you're referring to are:

1.

Erm, shouldn't the reason be obvious? I.e, he claimed JK and is Un CCd.

2.

What RVS stuff exactly? Or is this something you can't explain?

- I feel like LS can't be scum with Om, GW, or PV due to RVS stuff.

#1

isn't asking for clarification, nor does it have anything to do with his reads.

#2

is the only question we can count as you trying to clarify a read - and it isn't even questioning Kondi's vague scum reads which you were criticizing him on earlier. The question itself is self-serving and is not asking Kondi to clarify his thoughts on other people, instead the question of clarification mainly concerns yourself -

what RVS stuff did Kondi find in which he makes the decision to de-link you from other people

.

Scum do not want to be untied to potential partners not their own, because when they get lynched it narrows down the field to find their scum partner.

Jal, you know what I meant. You never said anything about it before 223?

I already explained my reasoning.

Again, I've already explained. I'll extract the two contradicting things to make it easier.

...Do you see it?

Again, you're just quoting things instead of explaining your reasoning, along with failing to answer my questions again. How does saying, "seems to me you're latching onto the most simplest thing in an attempt to make someone else look scummier than you" an attempt to portray Om as scummy? How is post 101 contradictory to my earlier statement? How does any of this make me scum? I asked for reasoning, you give me quotes that don't explain anything.

Now, if I had called Om scummy or revealed any thinking that I thought him as such prior to my original statement, you might have some straws to grasp at here. However, I don't. People brought Om was at L-1, obviously because they thought Om was the scummiest person at the time. Om starts "flailing" as you call it, by calling on and voting a couple people for being scum. I see this as Om trying to quickly latch onto and create another bandwagon in an attempt to redirect attention off of himself, and onto other people in an attempt to make someone look scummier than others are perceiving him as. It was an observation.

Also - why would I need to further portray Om as scummy when Gen was already there to hammer him and most people thought he was scummy anyway?

There is no good reason, because I wasn't trying to do what you're accusing me of doing.

[Jal]

Before I couldn't do that because we weren't in any completed games together BUT NOW I CAN. <3

Let me get this straight. You previously asked me. . .

Jal, how often do you accuse people of OMGUS in your games? Or the other typically basic and wikiesque tells, such as "anxious scum" etc?

. . . knowing that at the time of posting this I couldn't answer you? So basically, you just tried to discredit me knowing I wouldn't have the ability to reinforce myself or back myself up. I honestly can't see anyone but scum trying to do this. Why would a townie need to do this in an attempt to push weakly push a lynch?

Your first quoted statement implies you couldn't do the the legwork until we had a completed game together. Being in a game together isn't necessary to look up someone's meta. It is also implying

you were aware

I had no completed games prior to the one you listed, as you had to wait until the one we were in was completed to give "examples."

You don't pull shit like calling people anxious scum or accusing them of OMGUS. And you aren't this fucking dense.

I never accused you of OMGUS either. My ending statement in post 317 is not calling out an OMGUS, and I think others would agree your vote on me isn't a case of OMGUS - I think you're trying to lynch me because I'm most suspicious of you. I have an awful feeling your comment on OMGUS is referring to an ongoing game

So far the only thing you have on me in this regard is that I'm acting "totally different" by calling you out as anxious scum in this game and somehow I am more dense here. This is the meta you have? Nothing on my actual playstyle, which Gen mentions in his post is similar as it is in our previous game together?

I can't see you as anything but scum at this moment.

[Jal]

Lastsurvivor

:

How did I slip? If I said "Oh, I didn't actually read Kondi's reads" and then start asking questions about them, it implies two things.

1) My statement "Kondi's reads are good" isn't credible because I DIDN'T ACTUALLY READ THE READS.
2) That I have problems with the post.

re the questions: Those were my only two problems with the post. So I guess if they aren't about his reads, then sure, Kondi's reads were fine. But the post itself wasn't...if that makes sense.

No.

re the "explain (for the fourth fucking time) why that contradiction was scummy". I'll walk you through it...like you're five.

Okay, now take all of what you said here and refer back to the rest of my post where I explain and in which you conveniently ignored:

Spoiler: Jal post 350

How does any of this make me scum? I asked for reasoning, you give me quotes that don't explain anything.

Now, if I had called Om scummy or revealed any thinking that I thought him as such prior to my original statement, you might have some straws to grasp at here. However, I don't. People brought Om was at L-1, obviously because they thought Om was the scummiest person at the time. Om starts "flailing" as you call it, by calling on and voting a couple people for being scum. I see this as Om trying to quickly latch onto and create another bandwagon in an attempt to redirect attention off of himself, and onto other people in an attempt to make someone look scummier than others are perceiving him as. It was an observation.

Also - why would I need to further portray Om as scummy when Gen was already there to hammer him and most people thought he was scummy anyway?

There is no good reason, because I wasn't trying to do what you're accusing me of doing.

You're erm...grasping for straws here.

You could have easily said "No I don't really accuse people of OMGUS, anxious scum etc" without any completed games. And, yes, I could have done the legwork, but I

a) wanted to see how you would respond to the question (your lack of a definitive yes/no is what I expected) and
b) Just wanted to point people to a completed game. If the game wasn't completed, I would have said that you didn't act like this in our games together.

Let's refer back to your original post here.

Jal, how often do you accuse people of OMGUS in your games? Or the other typically basic and wikiesque tells, such as "anxious scum" etc?

Let me get this straight.
1. You set me up with a question in which I couldn't definitively back up yet due to no completed games at the time of you posting this.
2. Apparently, I passed/failed a sort of reaction test because I didn't give a yes or no answer to a non yes or no question. Just to save us a page of bullshit - "how often do you accuse.. yada yada" is not a yes or no question. It's very odd that you're now giving some excuse on why you didn't do the legwork when originally asking the question. At the time you couldn't really do any legwork because there were no completed games of mine at the time of the question. Why do you feel the need now to make up an excuse now for not originally doing it that doesn't even make sense?

Regardless, I hardly believe when you originally asked your question that you were looking for a particular reaction of mine. You were underhandedly trying to make me look scummy for reasons I pointed out in post 351.

Also, how does this question point people to a completed game? There were no completed games of mine available at the time of your question. You really can't keep your story or posts straight anymore, can you?

[Jal]

I think everyone would agree with me that you just described OMGUS perfectly. You vote me, and then I vote you.

I don't agree with that definition and in the same completed game you have pointed out (1239) I told Gen_Wolf it wasn't OMGUS when he called someone out for those reasons. OMGUS implies that you vote for someone because they voted for you. You didn't do that, and -let me repeat- I fully believe you are trying to lynch me because I am suspicious of you and interrogating you past "this thing you did looks funky." If I think your vote is OMGUS I will tell you it's OMGUS.

Why do you feel you have to make up these things I didn't say or even attempted to portray?

You're tunneling too. You didn't do that in N1239.

Clearly because I wasn't sucked into some stupid drawn out argument in that game as I am now.

[Jal]

Also:

@Kondi - How exactly is this game too much for you? There was little discussion up to that point.

[Jal]

This argument is going nowhere.

I'm obviously not going to convince anyone else to see Lastsurvivor is scum by the end of this day.

I'm going to change my vote onto Kondi. I'm not entirely convinced his behavior has been different, but

I am

suspicious of his lack of posts since my argument with Lastsurvivor, and his excuse for acting differently doesn't make that much sense for this thread. This lynch is better than no lynch, and will have to do until D2. I don't believe he and LS are scum together, so if he flips scum I'll probably rethink my case on LS.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kondi

[Jal]

Why the flip from Vijay being obvious town to potentially scum?

[Jal]

I don't think scum thought out that night kill thoroughly.

TvK: I want a base reads list from you. Also - why PV?

[Jal]

If any person would like to challenge Tvk then go ahead. I await with some buttered popcorn in hand and cookie dough ice cream for the aftermath.

@drmyshotgun: S'okay. I know it must be hard being scum.

[Jal]

Vijay - tell me your vision.

[Jal]

I'm open to brain waves.

[Jal]

I'm in agreement with a townie GW/SB. I also think Vijay is town. I'm going to go more into my thoughts when I have more time later tonight and put my vote down then as well.

[Jal]

@Lastsurvivor - So you think both scum were on the Kondi wagon then?

[Jal]

Examples of egging things on include this. Basically, egged on the scumslip. I was going to do it anyway, but there was no way you could have been sure.

You set-up the entire thing making it look like TvK made a scum slip, and you're going to use someone picking-up on this as a scum point against them?

[Jal]

I don't care to be linked to anyone, especially before a flip.

Before I say anything more,

@Drmyshotgun: If you're going to stay, I'd like for you to provide a reads list of some sort.

[Jal]

I fail to see how PV casting the first vote onto Kondi was running him to L-1 and getting him to claim, especially since this vote occurred prior to GW being ran-up.

[Jal]

Expressing my intent to hammer Lastsurvivor.

Claim.

I don't believe both scum were on Kondi's wagon.

The argument with PV doesn't make much sense - let's see if my first instincts were right.

Drmyshotgun's, "Jal is town" D1 reeked of bullshit to me. Not seeing town here.

[Jal]

UHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Jal]

And

this

is why I was not voting for a long ass while.

LS - what are your last thoughts? I'm really at a loss here. Crap.

[Jal]

I don't care if it looks like that, that's what it is and oh golly gee, someone quick hammered as expected. Don't think you played some awesome game here either - you were scummy as shit.

This game has been horrible. I have no town reads on any of you people.

[Jal]

I agree, I don't think it's pv/vijay either.

[Jal]

Why aren't you convinced Gunny is scum? I still think that town read on me is bs.

[Jal]

I won't be able to respond much until tomorrow. As with everyone else, I'm awaiting the night action. Most probably, TvK targeted the killer or there was a nk. I fail to see why scum wouldn't kill anyone but TvK at this point, if they decided to kill anyone at all.

[Jal]

So basically, not much of a response at all. I'm more inclined to believe Gunny is scum, then.

Anyone else game for a Gunny lynch?

Vijay - Scum are probably the only ones who know exactly what's going on.

[Jal]

I'm most intrigued by why you think a no lynch would be better for

you

.

@Sir - You also have to consider that the other possible scum partner may be just more scummy and barely anyone said they had a scum read on Gunny.

Also, that lynch wasn't really "accidental."

@Pv - What's up?

[Jal]

My top scum read is drmyshotgun. I don't buy his town read on me D1, that was an awful hammer, and his reply to Tvk's jail keep looks like given up scum.

My second top scum read is generally a three way tie between the rest of you.

[Jal]

Sir pulls slightly ahead for his posts seeming a bit disingenuous

[Jal]

Vijay - If we no lynch, we'd be leaving TvK to hopelessly WIFOM a jailkeep target for the night, and most probably we'd end up with a dead JK D4.

I can't see why scum would try to nk a townie after today, leaving there to be less suspects to work with the next day.

[Jal]

I would also be interested in hearing that.

@Sir Bastion: What did you think you had an inkling of in post 450?

[Jal]

Pv: Yeah, Gunny is not the easiest mislynch on the planet. This is under the assumption that Gunny is even town. The points you use to describe Gunny as a mislynch can be used to describe why Gunny is scum.

[Jal]

@PV: Do you think TvK RB or saved Gunny? Why?

Sir Bastion

:

That's not what Vijay is saying. Besides, your little line of thinking here never came out as you were making an argument against LS, which wouldn't have cut it anyway. If someone seems too townie, they most probably

are

town.

[Jal]

Rach, if you weren't the mod I'd be suspicious of you trying to push a quicklynch.

Actually, this thread isn't quick-

anything

.

I just want to see more activity in the game and less lurking.

[Jal]

Yeah, not surprised after that horrible D1 town read you had on me.

I've played numerous times with Jal before, and he's doing exactly the same thing he does in other games. Thinking he's Town.

It was two games. One game where you voted to lynch me D1 and the other you thought I was scummy.

So is the consensus a no lynch or a Gunny lynch? I am ready to end this day regardless. TVK I saw you lurkin' about earlier. Your thoughts?

[Jal]

Being that Gunny is probably scum, I'm more likely to think Vijay is town with that latest post. With Pv's doubts and Gunny's vote on me, it wouldn't be too hard for Vijay to try and redirect a lynch onto me and go full-steam-ahead in an attempt to save his partner. That, or Gunny is town and why extend the day by splitting the vote?

VOTE: Drmyshotgun

[Jal]

This seems like the most appropriate time to No Lynch if ever.

[Jal]

S'okay Bastion scum. There's no need to lurk.

[Jal]

Thanks for coming back into the thread and essentially saying nothing. Yes, it would be very great to know for sure what each party did. Why is knowing N2 actions critical to you? Don't we know their actions already?

Assuming TvK jailed who I think he did last night, this narrows the field down to two possibilities, and I sure would love to have one of you gone in order to confirm the other as scum.

[Jal]

At this time we're going to have to consider Vijay town, since that's the most logical conclusion based on TvK's reasoning for jailing Gunny N2. That, or I somehow persuaded him with Vijay being townie by my post 539, which I doubt. TvK also strikes me as the type of player who wouldn't leave things up to WIFOM by choosing another player, either.

I believe Gunny committed both kills for N1 and N2. Gunny was the least suspicious player at the end of D1 along with PV. Obviously, we know both PV and Sir Bastion were either tracked/jailed and I'm not scum, so we can conclude:

Gunny killed Om N1.

So why Gunny N2?

The main problem with this discussion is that it's based primarily on TvK's reasoning for choosing to jail Drmyshotgun. I'll repost it:

My reasoning? You were my main scumread all day 2. LS got lynched and flipped tracker and also pointed at you as his main scumread. So it would be a bit too obvious to jail you. SB and Jal seemed more townish than shotgun and PV, who were still absolute nullreads at that point. And as I already jailed PV day 1, my choice for shotgun was pretty obvious, especially after his stupid hammer.

So what I think what happened. Scum didn't try to kill me day 1 as I wasn't totally confirmed by then, but I can't see how I wouldn't be the target of the nk. Do I think shotgun is scum? Yes.

TvK barely gave any reads on D2, except town reads on myself, Om and GW. There was no further indication on whom TvK thought was scum. He certainly didn't give any indication that Vijay was his top scum read. So, scum were left to WIFOM at the end of the day themselves.

Thinking about it though, drmyshotgun was possibly

the best

person to do the killing N2. As you said earlier Sir Bastion,

It just seems too easy no way would I let the player who hammered *by mistake* be the one deliver the kill if I was scum it just seems careless.

It follows similarly to TvK's logic for why he jailed Drmyshotgun instead of Vijay. Vijay was Lastsurvivor's main scum read, so TvK felt it would be too obvious to jail him. On the flip side, scum probably thought Drmyshotgun seemed too obvious to jailkeep after that hammer. That, combined with the seemingly universal null-town read on drmyshotgun, even by Lastsurvivor after the hammer, probably gave scum some confidence to put Drmyshotgun forward. Lastsurvivor also a gave slight scum read on Sir Bastion at the end along with Pv (with whom he was fighting with at the end of the day), so scum were probably wary of sending them for the kill anyhow.

Enough of N2 WIFOM.

So who is scum? I'll post more thoughts on that later. Thus far, my list is

Sir Bastion
Pv
Vijay

[Jal]

Sir Bastion, your basis for ruling out Pv is

Occam's Razor says C) is our answer. With shotgun's hammer and the fact peregrinev had already been locked up he should have moved the killing responsibility to himself.

and

Does Pergrin cross me as the sort of player who would have changed who delivered the kill himself after he had been locked up once?

It doesn't take into account any other situation which has occurred in the game. It looks like you're trying to rule out PV quickly and ineffectually while trying to hop onto his suspicion of me.

In your first real contribution D2 you said,

peregrienV is either the most blatant scum or a moron of the highest order

What made you rule out that he isn't blatant scum and instead just a moron of the highest order?
I thought Drmyshotgun acted completely different from his town game with me (where I was scum). What of drmyshotgun's play this game made you think he was acting different from his usual scum self?

[Jal]

Do you feel Pergrin is the sort of player who would have made such a change during night 2?

Considering the WIFOM probably involved D2? Maybe.

PV, I thought you wanted to wait a bit to read the thread and comment and such.

[Jal]

TVK probably didn't switch whom he jailed then. Pv, any further personal insight from your re-reading?

Also, Vijay being the one probable confirmed townie and the one who said I would be the last person they would kill was night killed last night. I'm town.

Discuss.

[Jal]

Actually, it does.

By the way, why did you think you had any chance of being killed last night?

[Jal]

Why wouldn't I be killed? You never even considered it?

Don't try and flip the question back onto me. Answer the simple question.

You seemed convinced you were going to be killed last night. Why did you feel that way?

@MOD: On vacation until August 7

[Jal]

You seemed convinced you were going to be killed last night. Why did you feel that way?

573

Thanks for repeatedly not answering the question.

Oh, by the way: Have you had the chance to read the game yet? I know it's only been almost 2 weeks since you said you wanted to.

I'll make a big post later today.

[Jal]

No. Instead of answering the question, you have continuously tried to deflect the focus back onto me. Not going to work, mon ami.

This is all great nonetheless. I am stuck in lylo with Mr. Anti-town and Sir WIFOMalot. So let's play ball.

If anyone other then Vijay had died last night then scum was putting themselves at great risk all 3 of us yesterday put vijay at the bottom of our suspect list and letting him live would have required a great ability to wifom up the notion of TVK brain farting his last jailing to stop players treating him as a confirmed town in lylo.

You forget an important factor. Bringing Vijay into lylo

wouldn't

be about convincing the

other

player to WIFOM Vijay's confirmed town status. It would be all about who

Vijay

thought was more likely to be scum, because as you said, players would be treating him as confirmed town. The only people taking the risk with Vijay in lylo is both you and Peregrine, because otherwise Vijay would have chosen me last to kill if I were pitted against either of you today.

Taking the knowledge that two people had me on-top of the probable scum lynch and one had me at their bottom, for what logical reason would scum-me decide to bring the

two people who think I'm scum

into lylo with me? It doesn't make sense. Or what? Do you really think I would instead choose not to bring Vijay into lylo and put all the stakes into hoping I could WIFOM you both by telling you this scenario instead of actually doing it to win the game? Derp. No.

[Jal]

Why Peregrine is Probably Scum.

1.

Other than that, yeah, Gen_Wolf is my next scumbag list.
I've played numerous times with Jal before, and he's doing exactly the same thing he does in other games. Thinking he's Town.
Vijay and Om is Town read atm, and LastSurvivor...I'm not very sure. Nothing really big from him, he seems to post small bits here and there. But I like his lead on Kondi.

Peregrine I'm not very sure either. Most people don't seem to recognize him. And nothing good nor bad stood out when I read the thread.

TvK claimed Jailkeeper, so we aren't lynching him today.

Gunny doesn't give a solid read of Peregrine. Just, "I'm not very sure." No idea if Gunny thinks Peregrine is scum or town in any fashion. Also, why does it matter if people don't seem to recognize Peregrine and how does that account into

Gunny's

read on Peregrine? It's not unusual for scum to give a wishy-washy read on their scum buddy, especially early on.

2.

LastSurvivor asked:
"@drmyshotgun: Hey, thoughts on what's going on? Thoughts on my pere vote?"

No idea.
I'm stalling this game. Should I get replaced?

Gunny doesn't remark on Lastsurvivor's vote on Peregrine, and continues his "no idea/not very sure" slogan. Discussion later begins to heat up between Lastsurvivor and Gunny and, under the assumption that Gunny is scum partners with Lastsurvivor I ask for him to make a formal reads list as most scum give horrible reads on their scum buddies. Gunny says,

Peregrine is probably Town.

The only time he gives a definitive read, and he fails to give any explanation for it, whereas his previous posts give an explanation for why he thinks both Lastsurvivor and Sir Bastion are town. Odd.

3.

Being that Sir Bastion was a town read of TvK's, it's doubtful TvK would have jailed him. There's no logical reason for Gunny to have done the night kill with the suspicion on him from the hammer if these two were scum together. PV had a lot of suspicion for being the target of Lastsurvivor's vote that day

4.

There was also the fact that Gunny only responded to Peregrine D3, who was the only one who tried prodding Gunny to make a response better than "I don't know." Looks like scum frustrated with their partner giving up like that.

The following post also makes me hesitant:

I'm a little hesitant in all this.
My problems:

Shotgun with the hammer without claim, and knowing the tracker could be out there. And lack of playing.
But, he seems like the easiest mislynch on the planet.

Vijay was Last Survivor's final lynch choice for today. LS being town, I know his read was sincere.
But, I get the least scummiest vibes from Vijay. Mostly because

Jal and LS were back and forth all day1.
But, Jal is visibly quiet day2 and has even less to say today.

SirBastion and LS were back and forth all day2.
But, Gen_Wolf came across as town in his play and his claim.

This is the

only

time we get a reads list from Peregrine in the entire game, and it's right when Gunny is going down. This post came after TvK made post 515 saying he thought Vijay to be scum. Peregrine is getting the least scummiest vibes from Vijay.

Why

? Peregrine points out me as to the reason, but that doesn't explain why he is getting the least scummiest vibes from Vijay over Sir Bastion. Notice also, Peregrine and Gunny are the only ones to express doubt onto me this day. It looks like Peregrine is building up to Vijay being jailed and confirmed town the next day.

[Jal]

Why Sir Bastion is Probably scum

1.

Ok cool, Om you carry on voting me I will play the game...

Vote: Last Survivor I don't need a case I am just using blind luck and gut. Don't worry I am allowed too. Om of the Nom said so. Idiot.

Gen_Wolf later went on to say he voted for Lastsurvivor to prove a point. Scum-Gen_Wolf did a similar "to prove a point" vote in Newbie 1239 where someone pressured him a little, causing him to move his vote onto someone else in order to "prove a point."

2.

N1 kill points to Sir Bastion. Om and Kondi were the only holdouts who found Gen_Wolf scum.

3.

Sir Bastion committed the Amished Tell in post 432.

4.

Most of it was coming from how incapable you seemed to be of understanding kondi on his question (one of the actual good ones in day 1) about how confident people were in a scumtell to the point that he was bolding and increasing the font of his words. It irritated me that you doubled down your vote on him over it and it led to his lynch.

This is inaccurate and misrepresents Peregrine's role in Kondi's lynch.

5.

I don't quite buy the case on Lastsurvivor. The things Sir Bastion points out again him, are things that could have readily (and perhaps more accurately) been applied to me. Example:

oh and this

is lovely reverse spoiled milk tactic

*hur hur aint scum stoopid killing OM that idiot would have been a great scapegoat* I'M SO FREAKING TOWNIE!

no you are not.

Click the link. Lastsurvivor said,

*only one left

then TvK's clear and, as Jal said, scum did not think the NK through.

However,

I am the person who originally said scum didn't think through their night kill

. Lastsurvivor is only confirming with me after the claims that scum really did not think through their kill. Several people came out D1 to say they thought I was town, and with the only people left who thought I was scummy either were lynched, killed or stopped believing I was scum, it would have been futile to go after me D2. However, Lastsurvivor had plenty of people who thought he was scummy or was unsure of him leftover from D1.

6.

So like me you really had just suspicions of ls being too town for it to be true.

Referring to Vijay's explanation of his vote on Lastsurvivor. As I previously said, that is not what Vijay was saying. Besides, your little line of thinking here never came out as you were making an argument against LS, which wouldn't have cut it anyway. If someone seems too townie, they most probably are town. It looks like Sir Bastion is trying to latch onto Vijay's reasoning (and failing) in order to explain himself and use it as his own reasoning all along.

[Jal]

I've come to the conclusion on who I think is scum.

I would like for both of you to go through the thread and actually give us some reads instead of whatever it is you're both doing.

[Jal]

MOD: Prod Sir Bastion and Peregrine please

[Jal]

I hope your prodding stick is red hot, Rach. I want to move these cowlings into action.

[Jal]

All right.

[Jal]

Please share your inklings.

[Jal]

Interestingly enough, I just went through some of those games and it seems Gunny has a fondness for bussing his maf buddies throughout the game. Which, would mainly point to you.

I'll also restate this:

I would like for both of you to go through the thread and actually give us some reads instead of whatever it is you're both doing.

[Jal]

Sir Bastion, when you first came into the game you were bold and outspoken. Ever since that first day, you've been acting pretty timid and non revealing, even in lylo. Why?

[Jal]

Yeah. I'm thinking.

[Jal]

Not voting without Peregrine returning regardless.

[Jal]

^^ I'd like to know what job also. Sorry, was pretty much v/la myself. I'll get going on this later today. Hopefully Peregrine comes back or this will be useless anyway.

[Jal]

That's all ya got, PV?

[Jal]

I think so. My heart says Peregrine, but my gut says Sir Bastrino.

A few things that stand out in your big case post:

Part of the key to consider is that Gunny made the all the kills. But you, specifically should have no knowledge of that from your end to assume this from the start. It's obvious how you and Peregrine couldn't have made the D1 kill, but you don't know about me but you go ahead with that "knowledge."

Both drmyshotgun and Peregrine weren't active much in this thread but were active enough in their other threads during this time (I was in games with both of them at the time) so I don't think it would be clear who took more action over the other. Plus, in the few scum games I've had the scum can choose on behalf of the other to get them to make the kill, so I don't see this as a factor for peregrine.

You guys have to tell me why the hell you killed Om. He was my number one suspect and then he died. Vijay or TvK thought it was to stir the JK wifom, but no one scum took advantage of it. What the hell was with that kill.

And Peregrine, give me a break. I know you haven't read the thread yet. You weren't coming into the thread to do anything.

[Jal]

I really want ice cream now.

The Gunny Kills:

You already start off under assumption that Gunny made the N1 kill. You can only rule out Peregrine, but not me. However, you start off your things to consider with this point like it is fact.

[Jal]

I want to rid myself of this game. I also want to see my flavour. By the sound of it, Lastsurvivor and I were some bitter old married couple.

The town slip Kondi pointed out? That was essentially me scum slipping when playing in Open 408 where I was concurrently scum with Lastsurvivor. I was wondering if any would pick up on this. Boy was I paranoid. Didn't think it would be viewed as anything like a town slip until Kondi pointed it out.

On a last note, this is still the most awesome post in the game:

Well there was once this feisty wolf who wanted to eat all the nice juicy rabbits. Earlier in the day, he managed to corner one particular rabbit, but for some reason, this rabbit managed to wriggle free through the use of strange magics involving white light. Outraged and hungered, the wolf realised he needed this rabbit gone. But how can he do this? He realised the only way was to get the other rabbits to help him. But why would they listen to him, him and his sharp teeth? How then could he achieve this, this task of epic proportions? He thought and thought, and thought some more, long and deep into the night, until the very edge of daybreak where his eyes lit up. "yes," he says, "yes, we've got them now!" He rushes off to the nefarious depths of his dank lair and pulls out two glasses of wine. With a flourish and a bow, he offers this to the poor, innocent rabbits. Along with the innocent gifts, the seeds of doubt are planted. The whisperings of black magic, witchcraft and heresy, tales of white light doing evil things. However, one rabbit, gifted in both looks and intelligence, with a star emblazoned on his forehead, downed both glasses of wine (for this rabbit is not one to waste any alcohol, except for Absolut *shudder*) and exposed this evil wolf's treachery. The wolf screamed and ranted, but the rabbits were no longer under the spell of the wine in front of them..

It ends there. I love Bacardi.

Maybe I should get the Bunny avatar again.

VOTE: Peregrine

[Jal]

Hey guys.

I really wanted to vote Sir Bastion but I thought of two things:

1) Why would scum Bastion change his mind and vote Peregrine with his strong scum read on me?
2) Gen_Wolf flaked at the end of D1 and no one pointed out he hadn't been back on site until 3 days into D2. That would have been 8 days without Gen_Wolf if he were scum, and I thought more action would have been taken due to his absence.

I actually had some pretty good reads, except for Lastsurvivor. Ah, sorry about that. I think I was paranoid about your play due to us us both being scum in 408.

Don't worry LS. I completely ignored your dying reads as I thought Vijay was town and I knew Gunny was scum. I've been really paranoid when people call me town now due to this game.

Horrible game though. Good game nonetheless. I can't believe it started in May.

[Jal]

It wouldn't have mattered what Peregrine would have argued. I was reading your actions, not his on this point. I was also pressuring you all day and all yesterday up until your change of vote. It didn't make sense. I also looked extensively at both of your games (mainly pv, obviously) to see your behaviors in lylo situations.

I considered your second point. I don't know how Rach works, but I know in many games mods allow scum teams to direct each other's kills and powers. It wouldn't have mattered anyway. It was just the thing that pushed me to finally vote Peregrine that day. His vote to end D4 and his little game with the questioning but the nail in that coffin.

The town read on Gen_Wolf also helped.