Open 444: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem! OVER, MVPs!

[Whiskers]

@mod, you should probably message everyone that the game has started. I didn't even know it did and nearly forgot to check.

Uh, yeah, this.
I was about to go do something else but went, "Wait, didn't I sign up for a new game...?"

Ohai, Mark, the game has started.

Vote: Venrob

He really ought to be policy lynched, especially if we're free of PBrain.

Sweezy should really probably be lynched too. But I'll give some time to get settled in.

[Whiskers]

oh god, I forgot about the vengekill.

Unvote

I just finished a game where I said I would honestly push a policy lynch on Venrob until he gets better.

[Whiskers]

^I actually modded one. They lynched the 2-shot on... Day 1? Therefore, there was no vengeful-townie kill.
Scum still won though.

What do you mean, "she was the first to post when no PMs were sent out"? The thread didn't open until AFTER PMs were sent out.
Oh, you mean gamestart PMs?

Noted.

[Whiskers]

Uhm...

Uh, also, less information results in less logical options. The more information you have, the more possibilities become available to you (until you get so much information that possibilities start to close again; in mafia, that tends not to happen until late game). Regardless, that's irrelevant, how about you go read that post where Sweezy enlightened you as to the wagon's origins. Or better yet, read the post where I started the wagon. Then, for extra credit, you can read the thread.

You're correct in saying, "Less information results in [less-logical] options," but what you meant to say is that less information results in

fewer

logical options, which isn't necessarily true.

Since the former is true, ALL options at that stage in the game are "less logical;" in other words, NONE of them are particularly good. You could do X, Y, or Z, and each of them are equally valid, if not particularly informed, choices.
If the latter were true, then ONLY a few options would be "logical options," which is to say, that ONE OR TWO options are particularly good, but the rest of them aren't. You could do X or Y, but Z is the only

logical

choice.

So, what's the reason for 2birds being your "one logical option"? I'm reading the thread in that area and it looks like a sheep.
Unfortunatly, you only get to a state with [few logical options] later in the game-- like, when you have a cop report. Something along the lines of, "Whiskers reported a guilty on Y, then died and flipped cop! We should lynch Y!" Because in that scenario, the other

possible

options, X and Z, aren't really

logical

options.

But we don't have that. We have

less

information, so all options are

less

logical-- therefore opening more options for you pursue.

Now: Why was

[Whiskers]

Sorry, my text got jumbled. Take out
"So, what's the reason for 2birds being your "one logical option"? I'm reading the thread in that area and it looks like a sheep."
and put it at the end.

[Whiskers]

Yeah, what exactly would you like to see more

of

from me? Nothing's interested me.

@Name User, in post 112: Difference in the words changes the meaning.
I made that post because he said, "X is our only other logical option because [blahblah]" When really, (as I pointed out,) [Blahblah] means that more options than before are logical, not fewer.
IOW, Birds did what I would have done as scum-- used

almost correct

words to make the sentence mean whatever I wanted it to.

[Whiskers]

I understand and sympathize with you.
Also, I understand that you explained the "one logical option" bit, but haven't decided whether or not I'm buying it. I've decided, instead, to pack it away and maybe come back and look at you later if you warrant suspicion. When there's enough game-pages to build a case on you, if I feel it needs to be done, I'll bring that point up again.

Re: joking
I've seen both sides of this argument-- You're saying scum are more likely to joke around because they want to post fluff and just don't care about the productivity of the game. I've also seen the argument that scum don't joke around because they want to appear serious and lead the town. I've seen that "scum want to look relaxed, so joke around at the beginning of the game." I've seen, "scum want to get right down to lynching, so don't joke around at the beginning of the game."
I think it's a product of playstyle, not alignment, and that it's an interesting idea, but not a sound (or soundly-tested) observation. Kind of like, "Hm, moon kind of lookes like it has holes. It must be made of cheese?"
Now: Since the first post, I've been suspicious of Sweezy. There hasn't been a lot to go on, so my suspicion is JUST gut. I really can't pursue it much farther than that.

[Whiskers]

No. I literally read his first post and felt like he was going to be scum. I haven't pursued it further.

[Whiskers]

Yeah, what exactly would you like to see more

of

from me? Nothing's interested me.

I find this to be a strange comment and not what i know of your playstyle.

You seem aggressive as town and easily find cases to dismantle, inspiring discussion and scumhunting. But here your comment is supporting the lack of activity. I understand that you don't have strong reads, as i don't either right now, but why shy away from proactively hunting for reads? Why the demotivation here?

I haven't seen any cases TO dismantle.
Also, keeping a constant playstyle is hard and boring and allows people to catch you on meta.

[Whiskers]

Johnny, those are terrible suspicions. Sorry.

I'm inclined to agree with this.
Why do you have a townread on Shaded? Why do you have a scumread on Birds?
And Eidolon certainly isn't as easy to read as her buddy RapidCanyon, but I'd bet that non-logic and emotional responses are part of her townplay.

[Whiskers]

VOTE: Eidolon

Couple reasons:
She was first to post when no PMs were sent out. Scum would be more reactive because they would have seen gamestart in the QT.

Half her posts have been jokes

She answered RQs and got clarification on one for some reason

She calls Scruffy suspicious. Not useless, suspicious.

These are strange reasons? Looks like you are just pulling things out of your ass.

Being active =/= scum.

Joking =/= scum. i made serious points as well.

answering rqs = /= scum. wtf?

getting clarification from someone =/= scum. He made a contradictory post. I wanted his reasoning behind it.

Scruffy did something hypocritical. At that point, it was the best lead. Doesn't mean he's scum or he should be lynched, just means he's the best option for a wagon. This is the point of rvs. You find something that is strange, and turn it into a wagon. This gets people talking about things in a more serious way and taking stances.

And then you talk about newbs as if you have experience. You should know what rvs is for if you have experience.

So, now that you've

admitted

to pulling things out of your ass, this is--

Wait, no, you just said you can't read it. Not that it's scummy.
Okay. That's fine. I can't read her well either. But you're

acting

like you think she's scum. Your vote is even on her.
It doesn't look like a bad reaction to me. It's a non-telling reaction.

[Whiskers]

Hiya. First time playing here.

<...>

3.

Being scum

I whistle at inappropriate times.

I think this is the thing that bugged me. You know how Johnny is saying that jokes make you look active without content? And how I said that jokes make you looked relaxed and townie? I think this is the second one-- Sweezy hasn't tried so much to look active, but if jokes in RVS are a scumtell, this is one.

Also of note, Scruffy and Venrob have been equally inactive, meaning we can't really read them whatsoever. So

unvote

for me.

Then this is weird. I agree that you can't read players when they don't play, but I also would say tht you can't read ANY of the players in a game particularly well, if you have a bunch of missing slots. "they are lurking, we shouldn't vote them" seems like a really dangerous way to play.

no one else really sticks out as doing particularly scummy things (besides lurkers, but that's automatically scummy so whaddaygonnado).

But, you just unvoted the scummy one?
idk. Not enough to lynch, and I agree with some of the other things you've said.
But YOU

are

also lurking and I

do

see some of my own scumplay in what you say.
You're not my number 1 suspct, but you're a gut scumread.

[Whiskers]

Yeah...
I have problem with ShadedMelee except he agreed on me here. Although, I suppose that shouldn't be enough for me to give him a townread for free.

We have less information, so all options are less logical-- therefore opening more options for you pursue.

That is exactly what i was trying to say.

"We do not have any information, so lets lynch <put random people here>" is irrational for a townie. If the guy that was behaving this way was a newbie i could have understood that but it sounds scummy to me especially when he appears to be a wiseacre that claims to know everything about the game.

Vote: ShadedMelee

At the mo, I like this for a wagon and maybe a lynch.

[Whiskers]

Oh right-- the other thing about him was that Johnny has a big throbbing townread on him, and I wanted to know why before I voted, crap.

[Whiskers]

Shut up. We WANT them to use their shots early, don't you care them into NOT shooting.

[Whiskers]

Scum usually discuss set-up and strategy in QT;

WRONG!
I've only ever discussed strategy as mafia like, once or twice in the QT, and it was mostly like, "Hey, wht's the best play for this game?" "*no response*"
I agree that it's a POSSBILITY, but you really can't go basing a read off of, "Well scum obviously discussed strategy" because more often than not, ime, scum talk about "Who are we killing tonight?" in their QT. Not about strategy.

Also, Many of the games I'm in, scum hasn't used pregame chat at all. It's just not that useful. Scumtalk is really not particularly useful except for setting up gambits later or deciding who to nightkill (PR-hunting).

Although, in the NVM I modded, scum did use daytalk a lot more-- but again, it was mostly "What should I do now?" or "I'm going to do this."

reading the rest now.

[Whiskers]

and town are more likely to have NOT read the setup than scum.

Ugh, this is not true, too. Sure, maybe by the end of the day, but after you play in a Mini Normal you get pretty comfortable not knowing exactly what the roles are. Besides, since it's such a (stupid) widely-accepted towntell to not know the setup, I certainly don't bother reading it until I get my role, make a few posts, and get a feel for the mood of the game and how I want to play it.

[Whiskers]

I'm going to go ahead and say that JF and Birds aren't on the same alignment.

Also I draw a connection between JF and ShadedMelee.

I think my lynch preference Shaded, JF, then Birds.
Eidolon is a strong townread.

[Whiskers]

Eidolon is a strong townread.

IDK, it just seems like usually when scum has 1 solid townread, they are town.
<snip>
(it's scum move 101.)

man, looks like I jumped the gun.

[Whiskers]

Well, like I said, it's not enough to lynch you: it's gut. I guess I'm not really interested in you right now, I just want everyone to know I have an uneasy feeling about you.

If I were scum, and you were my scumbuddy, btw, that is how I would hide you.

Also,

Whereas a rookie mafian could be . . . possibly even instructed to do as little as possible. . .

I do want to point out that you really do fall here, and that taking shots in the dark may be our best bet here, and that yes, really-- scum wins this game by lurking. By the end of my run of this setup, NO shots had been taken by the mafia vig-- she was lynched Day 1 (as a lurker), but mafia still won with a lurker and a townleader alive. Mafia only needs one advocate, the others to lurk, and they win the game.

Either more prods, more pressure, or more policy lynches.

[Whiskers]

Isn't a change in behaviour also suspicious?

[Whiskers]

Johnny, what was the solid towntell that Eidolon gave you?

In post 190 she said that if I flip scum, shaded is town, and has proceeded to vote shaded instead of me. Scum could easily push for me or push for shaded, but she did neither. It says to me that she's actually trying to see motivations, not draw connections.

This is a great place to point out the connection that this DOES draw: If Eido flips scum, it strongly suggests that these two are her partners (really only that Johnny is, though): She attacks Johhny, says that IF he flips scum, it will incriminate SM Eido knows there is a good chance of Johnny being the lynch for today, thet's why she's so wavering in her attitude toward him. Assuming Johnny and Eido are scumpartners, Johnny flipping scum with give Eido a good jumping off point to attack OTHER easy lynch SM. But then Eido goes after SM instead Eido

doesn't

want to lynch her own scumpartner, she just sets up the link for later use because, as I said, it's as likely as not that Johnny will be lynched today. Instead, she attacks SM, he player she said we'd be getting more info on if Johnny flips scum (without waiting for the scumflip).

3) You called him out as scum after he voted you.

4) When asked about why you didn't call him out as scum earlier, you say that you were hoping he would vote you (unless I read it wrong).

I was not hoping he would vote me. The vote was what differentiated (in my mind) a newbie action from a scummy one.

So, wait. Wait wait wait. You mean that if the player votes you, it's scummy, but if the player

doesn't

vote you, that's what a newbie would do? Uh-- maybe differing playstyles have to be taken into account, but I'd say the opposite-- the newbie throws a vote at you. The scum keeps her cards close to her chest. This, sir, was you in OMGUS.
Really, try to convince me that something is a scumtell when that player also votes you, but only a noobtell when they don't. Buuuullshit.
Also, IF differing playstyles must be taken into account, then this point of yours is just as useless as my retort to it.

5) You continue pushing Eidolon despite the fact that your case was BS.

Because I didn't get a tell.

6) When asked about it, you say that you were pushing Eidolon hoping for a tell from her.

True.

7) When she presses you on it, you claim that you got a town-read on her.

Explained the read above. It is an unfortunate coincidence, but that's how my thought process worked.

Err... Read WHAT above? That you "see what they're saying"? That you "can't really argue with it"? Either you were being opportunistic, or you weren't, right? Obviously, if I ask you, you'd say you weren't, that no, you didn't have scum motivation. But what if I ask you for the reason you DID have? What was the motivation here, Johnny? As soon as someone takes issue with something you've done, you try to hide it. What Are You Up To?

You have answers to every question, Johnny. But the point is that you never really tell us the purpose of your actions until you are pushed on them. Then you give us answers. This entire thing seems to me like you are making stuff up as we go along. That is the prime reason I suspect you.

Aaaah, this.

1) If I announce the purpose of everything I do a good amount of it will be pointless. If you ask, I'll tell you. The only reason I would withhold anything would be if it benefited my ability to read someone or (somehow) the town's ability to achieve its win condition.

Okay, then how about telling us how Eido making a case on you, then voting someone who is NOT you, is a towntell. Or, you could also tell us why not voting a scumread indicates a newbie, but voting for a scumread indicates scum.

Hadn't realized there was any change

Sorry, honey, not giving you towncred for not knowing the history of the setup.

Mods usually toss in something like "Day 1 start" or something in the QT.

Proof?

[Whiskers]

Whiskers-scum essentially confirms me as town, would like to wagon for that chance but isnt a top scum read

....whaaaat?

---

I didn't think about it until now-- I think you're the kind of player that grows up to be a Rainbow Dash.

Another person I really want to hear from is RainbowDash. I skimmed through the last couple of games with this setup - Rainbowdash was town and her meta was significantly different. She was more questioning and tried very hard to probe into each player and figure out whether they are scum and constantly kept changing her reads. I see her current playstyle to be significantly different from her playstyle there. I don't remember which game it was since there were two but I'll pull up links if needed.

Scum here: Open 353,
Town here: Open 414.
Of course, I've only seen her play in the one. Maybe I'll read up on her other.

---

The matter at hand:
I would feel less uncomfortable giving a vengekill to Johnny than I would to some other players (That's even with him making his own choice). Unless he's playing "town leader" for the scumteam here, he also maybe not be today's lynch. He's

sincere

. And no, that's not telling, but it means that if he's scum, we'll catch him later. We'll be able to tell.

[Whiskers]

As for right now:

yabbaguy

A snapwagon it is. Let's see if we can get some

action!

[Whiskers]

1) Whiskers trying to policy lynch Venrob. When the venge kill gets mentioned (which is in the town PM...) she moves away from trying to push policy. It suggests that Venrob is town (as she is afraid of policy) and that she didnt get the town PM (missed key info)

Also, Venrob should go and play in newbie games until he learns to read, and preferrably, to not suck. Right now, he is a policy lynch, by which I mean that: If I play in a game with him, I will seriously push that he be lynched Day 1 because only harm can come from him playing the game.

I wasn't expecting to meet up with him again so soon, and yeah, I agree that policylynches for bad play in other games... might not be a good idea in this setup.

---

The vengekill is mentioned in the town PM but it is there for all to see. I read every role PM in the OP and expect everyone to do the same. You are actually suggesting that Whiskers didn't know that a vengekill was available which suggests that whiskers didn't read the OP. Whiskers doesn't come across to me as that kind of person. He is meticulous and detailed. I would expect him to read the OP regardless of affiliation.

Nope. A vanilla townie is just a vanilla townie, I didn't really investigate further. You see the green in your role PM, you sigh, and you go play the game.
In the game I modded, town lynched the MafVig on Day 1, before any shots were fired. So I never saw a vengekill happen.

[Whiskers]

Most scumslips are small. Your choice of words indicate that you are doing something that isn't logical. Why would you tell me why I am scum? Even if I

was

scum, I wouldn't admit it. From a town perspective, it doesn't add up. Explaining why you

think

I am scum however is a defense of yourself and that your arguments are logically valid. The second indicates townie-behavior. The first indicates scum behavior due to irrationality.

You're kidding. You're kidding, right?
Nobody EXPECTS you to "admit it." That's not the point of the attack. "You are scum" is a much stronger conviction than "I think you are scum," not to mention quicker to say. What do you mean, "It doesn't add up"? This isn't like, one pony plus a whole lot of apples-- And she isn't defending herself in her

attack

. Duh. Saying "You are scum" doesn't show irrationality, or non-logic. It shows that she thinks that you are scum.
But let me back off of that-- how would you even misinterpret saying "you are scum" as a scumslip? Something like, "I am scum" might be a scumslip-- "You are scum" isn't something scum is more likely to say than town, not just because it's a common colloquialism, but because there's no scum/town motivation for saying one over the other.

I gave detailed justification for why quicklynching is bad.

Yes, right, but just like all the time, just because you give detailed justification for something, it doesn't mean you're

wrong

.
Please, you have to understand this. Rainbow Dash isn't suggesting, "Let's speedlynch randomly and not get any reads!" she is instead suggesting, "LET'S BUILD A FIRE UNDER SOMEPONY AND LOOK AT HOW THEY SQUIRM." You can surely see the use in that. Also! You don't seem to understand that town is an UNINFORMED majority. If we take lots and lots and lots of time to "analyse" (analyse WHAT? There are no flips, for example-- everything else is speculation), the INFORMED minority (that's tha mafia) gets to ACTUALLY consider, say, who to kill, who to attack, when to bus. Scum can collaborate their whole day long, assumedly making everything work in their favour. Town just argues.

You are my first pick for scum right now. I am certain enough that you are lying that I am willing to take the chance of getting venged if you are town. I am convinced that it is small enough. Your behavior just screams scum from every angle. You come into the game and you FOS the person who is suspicious of everyone's town read. You know that Yabba has come out extremely strongly against Eidolon going so far as to call her "poison." You know that if you throw bait on yabba, Eidolon will bite and lead a lynch on him. You are being highly opportunistic.

@ Eidolon, Yabba is a bad lynch. RBD specifically threw him out there as an option hoping he might kill you.

Just going to ask, because maybe I missed something-- Did anybody see Rainbow Dash appeal to Eidolon?

I would suggest everyone choose between me and RBD as to who they would like to be lynched.

NO. NO, FUCKING STOP IT RIGHT NOW. FUCKING NO. YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED. STOP PLAYING THE GAME. GET UP AND WALK AWAY FROM YOUR COMPUTER. COME BACK TOMORROW. NO.

Did you see her response? She FOSses me but is afraid to vote me. She is honsetly

scared

as to what might happen. She wants a lynch of a player who suspects Eidolon as opposed to her. Opportunism to the max.

[Whiskers]

sorry: Just because you gave "detailed justification" for something, it doesn't mean you're (Not)

wrong

.

[Whiskers]

Again, RC, you don't see what's wrong with your post. I can't rebut the whole of 279. But I can the first bit.

The case against Rainbowdash

1) Rainbowdash fabricating scumtells

Let's start with 228.

She starts makes connections between players.

Let's start here, then: seeing links between players, and pointing them out, is not scummy, nor a scumtell.

RC-scum heavily suggests one of JF and SM as scum. I would almost snap lynch either of RC or SM if the other flipped scum

She says that she would snap-lynch the other if one of me or Shaded flips scum. Now, there can be town-motivation or scum motivation behind making associative tells like this one. Which is it, here?

But look, she's not pushing for a lynch on either of you. She's saying, "Here is a link I see." If she were strongly convinced that one of you was scum (which would therefore lead her to ANOTHER scum, in her mind), she'd be attacking you.

To answer that, let's look at the reason she gives for making the accusation. This is the reasoning she gives in 256:

Some of your posts seem to assume SM is scum for calling others odd and you always seem to lump JF/SM together with JF being the lynch preference.

It is completely possible to have two scumreads with one being the lynch preference and another being someone you can be convinced to lynch or will lynch at deadline. Scum may sometimes do this but that by itself is not a reason to snap-lynch one player if the other flips scum. More important than the poor reasoning is that she needs to be pushed in order to out that reasoning. A townie would give the reasoning and go after the player they think is scum.

Right... The point here is that you group SM and JF together, but always want to lynch JF. In other words, "you're bussing SM," keeping him as a safe second lynch to JF. After a JF lynch, an SM lynch will never go through, because you're tying the two together; BOTH scum."

Scum of course would be more hesitant. In her case, she needed to be pushed. I needed to ask her "RBD, give me the reasons why you think I am scum." Then, she responds and spits out weak reasoning that could just as well have applied to anyone. Eidolon wanted to lynch Johnny or Shaded with Shaded as her preference. Does that make Eido scum? No, it means that she suspects those two players and prefers to lynch one over the other. RBD picked up on something that both town and scum do and tried to portray it as a scumtell. Fabricating scumtells is a scumtell by itself - and one of my favorite ones.

And one of the ones you barf up at every chance you get, applicable or not.
Is Eido consistently mentioning JF and SM together? Does she have a clear preference for one lynch over the other? (Iirc, she's only voting SM just recently, and had been fighting with JF for some time prior)
YOU are. YOU do. In YOU, it looks like you're protecting a scumbuddy. In Eido, it looks like an attack.

In short: Rainbow Dash is allowed to have scumreads. She's allowed to have reasons for it. She's not even attacking you. Instead of getting extremely defensive and OMGUS voting, trying to turn it into a 1v1 (good for scum), take a look at the game from a different perspective.

RBD just keeps getting scummier and scummier. Notice how she backs off when I push a lynch on her and say it is either her or me?

Notice how she wasn't pressuring you to begin with.

Regarding whisker's post. I'll accept the last bit and not ask to be lynched. I am going on a straight collision course with my biggest scumread.

No. Stop it. You biggest scum read in this game, and in EVERY game you've ever played on MS, is the player who suspects you. NO.

It is stronger than ever as opposed to my scumread on Johnny for instance which wasn't as strong. RBD didn't directly appeal to Eidolon. As I mentioned in my last post, there is scum motivation to attack a player that a townie wanted lynched but couldn't get a wagon going.

Is there not town motivation to attack a player that other townies also think is scummy? Consider this: You were voting yabbaguy after agreeing with Eidolon. But wait-- "there is scum motivation to attack a player that a townie wanted lynched, but couldn't get a wagon going."

Regarding quicklynching, sure scum can make better kills the more we analyze but don't you already think they have what they need - kill the biggest townreads?

Maybe. Depends. Do you wear your heart on your sleeve? Also-- the thing it

actually

depends on is, "who is the best townie?" Mafia already knows who the town players are, they just have to choose a good one to kill. Townreads come and go. Threatening players do not. Why do you think Rainbow Dash keeps talking about how she'll get shot D1?

[Whiskers]

Ok.

Btw, since when have you read my townmeta?

[Whiskers]

I was just about to Unvote and Vote whiskers but here comes RBD's next post which doesn't serve to alleviate my suspicion but only increases it.

Alright, here we fucking go.

At this point, RBD is flailing as can be seen by her usage of emotive language and characterization of scumhunting as "upset." For instance, when I call her scum, she says I am "upset" at her in order to discourage scumhunting and also to minimize the FOS on her.

Wrong. You are upset. Or, at least, you look upset. RD says you're scum, so you have this explosion of why she must be scum. It boils down to, she suspected you.

She also misuses the word OMGUS. I pointed out that the reasoning she uses to FOS me was invalid but she tries to characterize it as OMGUS because she accused me first. A scumread doesn't become invalid if they accuse you first. It is the reasoning that matters.

Wrong. You are OMGUSsing hard. Pretty hard. Look-- when another player disagrees with you, you attack her, too! Yeah, call it discrediting, whatever, but you OMGUS like crazy in every game I've ever seen you attacked in.

She also uses the word "complaining" about a wagon to undermine what I was trying to say.

You

WERE

complaining! You voted Yabbaguy in one post and said, "We shouldn't quicklynch!" in the next, even though you were contributing to the wagon that was a candidate for quicklynch. Like others should move their votes so you can have yours on him, but not lynch.

I too could start using emotive language and start saying "RBD is whining and complaing and crying about her beloved quicklynches" but I won't.

But, see, she's not.

I bring this up to alert readers to the emotive language she is using and to disregard arguments of that nature that she makes.

This is the definition of discrediting.

She downplays her comments on associative tells. She had previously said that one of me or Shaded flipping scum means that the other would need to be snap-lynched. Under pressure, she now modifies it to mean that she was merely pointing it out for others after she was dead.

She gave a read. Also, it's not an "Associative tell" until one of you flips scum. She drew a connection between you. In this game, you don't just give your reads [at the end of the day], because you could die at ANY time.

Regarding her definition of a quicklynch - just because she says something is a quicklynch wagon doesn't mean that it is. I specifically said that my vote was not for a quicklynch. I can call it a regular wagon if I like. Her response does nothing to refute this analysis. I voted because I thought Yabba was scum. He did nothing to convince me otherwise. Only a more obvious scummy - RBD showed up.

Do you really not get this? If a player is being "quick-waggoned," and you hop onto that wagon as it's going up, then you are on the quickwagon. It's not as though you're unaware of how fast the wagon is moving-- if you really don't want a lynch on that player at that point in time, then you really shouldn't vote for him.

Also, notice how in the last post, she says I need to stop accusing her and Whiskers because she might later push a lynch on me? She is threatening me as opposed to voting for me. It is a good mafia tactic if the townie doesn't know what he is doing or if the townie isn't competent enough. It is attempt to discourage me from FOSsing her as opposed to an accusation.

That is not what she said. She said that you need to stop OMGUSsing (even if you find reasons for it, the two players you've attacked are the two players who have doubted or suspected you), because the stupid pushes will get you lynched. Remember Siv? Only this time, you're NOT confirmed town. Someone was willing to lynch you when you were confirmed town because this (thing you do) is so bad.

As to why I think Whiskers is scum, it is because of the tone of the response, not just the response itself. Also, RBD is minimizing and ignoring large chunks of analysis. Let's take a look at this: "Now you are attacking Whiskers because she also disagrees with your case."

Then take a look at 286. See how the justification I provided is butchered by RBD? This is the sort of thing that makes me believe she is scum - mis-representing analysis.

But, look at 286. You point to one game of mine, you tell me I'm defending Rainbow Dash. Well... it's true! I'm defending Rainbow Dash because you're being destructive in attacking her. The things you're attacking her for don't really make sense, aren't really scummy.

I disagree with your case.

RBD, it is time we stop going back and forth without any real substance.

Great, since you're the one that started the whole thing...

If you think I am scum, vote me.

Why? Why can't she do something else? Why does everything have to be about you, RC? But look: She didn't say you were scum, she said that there's a link between you and SM.

Her backing off when I accuse her is proof that she is scum scared that she might be killed. Would a townie not be willing to take that chance? I am okay with the chance of getting killed because I am convinced RBD is scum.

A townie wouldn't stupidly push once her mind has changed. RBD looks at your reaction and your play. It's not that you accused her or something: If you look, her reasoning was along the lines of, "I don't think scum would even play this bad."

Now, here is a great idea. RBD thinks she is absolutely awesome at finding scum which justifies lynching her on day 1 because even on the off-chance that she is town, she will likely catch scum. She is our best lynch target for today.[/quote] Actually, it would be cool to lynch scum, or, like you want, to try to scumhunt and maybe get some reactions from, oh, idk, running somepony up to L-1.

[Whiskers]

@rapid: you can't really discount all of those players just because they aren't active right now, in this game.
they would be active onsite but purposely lurking here, or the mod might allow delayed-kills to be submitted.

[Whiskers]

@rapid: you can't really discount all of those players just because they aren't active right now, in this game.
they would be active onsite but purposely lurking here, or the mod might allow delayed-kills to be submitted.

I checked their profiles to see when they were last online.

Whiskers, did you allow delayed kills in the game that you modded? If so, how did they work?

I don't think it came up, but I would if it did. The game I just finished (where we fought and I actually

WAS

scum), I submitted delayed kills, since I spent a bunch of time offline.

Also-- you checked their profiles, but what if the mod wasn't online when they sent the kill, and made it as soon as he logged on, not when the player actually sent it in?

ALSO, what about, say, Klick, who has his profile set to hide when he's online, and his "last activity" is listed as "--"?

Did you check

all

of them?

Also, this doesn't mean that any one of them isn't

scum

, it just suggests that they are not the Vig, specifically.
I really don't find that much use in this information. We're scumhunting, not vig hunting.

[Whiskers]

We know with certainty that the mod was online Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:10 pm since he made a post then.

If Mod was online at this time,

and the kill was made (in thread, by mod) at this time: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:12 pm, Then only users who were online

before

Sep 27 12:10 pm are cleared (from vig).
and...
2birds:
Last visited: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:53 am

JMC:
Last visited: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:08 pm

Name User:
Last visited:
Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:38 pm
Yeah, okay, I'll buy that. I'll note: I

didn't

check all of them.

However, there is one that might be interesting to look at:

Kimor:
Joined:
Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:20 pm
Last visited:
Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:06 pm
That's,

Idk. Kimor came in,tecnically, after the kill.

We should take into account that D3f prodded Jigglymence shortly prior to the kill, and that, being a hydra, one of them might have sent it in via PM (or even hydra QT).
Oh yeah, that reminds me. Scum have daytalk. Can't they just submit the kills there?

Finally,

@Mod: Do you intentionally wait between receiving a kill and the kill taking effect, or does the kill take effect as soon as you receive it?

@Mod: Can scum send in a nightkill from their Mafia QT, or must they PM you?

[Whiskers]

NU and Birds are my townreads.

[Whiskers]

Third: Please stop using "last online" tags for finding the Dayvig. This and similar conditions are now prohibited in my rules.

I... don't like this. It's not even out of game info. It's like disallowing meta.
I don't think it's helpful or useful (particularly in this case) but I don't think banning it is right either. (also, it's not a particularly powerful was to come to not a particularly powerful result. Why ban it anyway?)

---

Rapidcanyon - Do you think that the dayvig would be more likely to PM or to use the quicktopic?

I don't know and I don't really care either WHERE they sent the kill. What I wanted to know was the whether the dayvig had to personally send in the kill or if anyone in the mafia could do it on behalf of them. This I would have used to pin who the dayvig was based on the times they were online until the mod stepped is and asked us to not use that analysis.

As for that, I know that in my game, a major factor was that the vig had to make the kill herself. Also, since it's a role power, not a factional kill, or a kill-enabler, I'd bet that the kill has to come from the vig.
OfC, there are other differences between this game and the one I ran-- for example, my game didn't have a mandatory, plurality lynch at deadline-- days were only good for spreading out kills.

Also, Mod just said a moment ago that the mafia has to PM him (and the role PM in the first post, now that I've looked, says the same).

---

Whiskers - Explain your vote for Yabba in post 231, because it seems very out-of-character for you.

Wouldn't that imply that you know me, or at least my character? Not sure what you're basing this off of, (and I have trouble keeping a solid meta,) but OK, I'll bite.
Rainbow Dash said, "let's 'snapwagon' Yabbaguy" and I said, "OK." Thus ends the tale of post 231.

[Whiskers]

By no "last online" stuff, I mean what happened in finding who the Vig was based on when they were online.

Right, I don't think it's something that should be banned-- largely because I don't think that you can rely on it to actually find the vig, (for example, that was apparently a timed kill). Best case for scum, they can use "he was online!" as an explanation to frame others or save themselves. If town DOES use it to narrow down the vig, then it will make the mafia more cognisant of what their settings are, how they're playing, when they're online.

Doesn't matter that much.
To conclude this bit though: The kill was a timed kill, meaning that a player could have submitted it right at the beginning of the game with instructions that it would only take effect now.

We cannot determine the vig based on who was online when.

[Whiskers]

Oh yeah, forgot.

vote: Sweezy

.
Would be cool if we could run him all the way up to L-1 this time. Not like that yabbaguy wagon.

[Whiskers]

Not commenting on a lot, because I didn't understand a lot. I'm kind of out of it right now.
However:
My buddying with rainbowdash gives you a townread on rainbowdash and a scumread on me. Interesting.
Also interesting that you dump a scumread because other players disagree.

Rapid, honey, you don't

know

my town meta, and if I've done anything right over my career, I don't

have

a town meta.

Oh, the other thing is, I think it's funny (in the "aw, how funny" cute way) that you have Klick as town a la POE-- which is just another way to say he hasn't been posting.

[Whiskers]

I also tried to take a townleader position in Maestro's game-- the one you got kicked out of? I would have, too, if the PRs hadn't outted.

I was happy, in a way, to see Eido go. The way I see it, you announce your "town reads" and wait for mafia to kill them.

The whole Rainbow Dash thing-- It was less because I wanted to defend her and more because I wanted to argue against you. You say things that are so dumb. The worst part is that I don't always know how to argue against it, like-- you'll say something that

is

logical. But the whole thing is so clearly wrong, that I have to attack it, even if the parts of the whole make sense.

Your

gut

says Sweezy? Over your cases? ORLY?
And what about his flip makes me town?

[Whiskers]

Maybe I am bussing? Maybe I saw that the last wagon to run somepony up to L-1 didn't even get that far. Maybe I thought a wagon with no reasoning wouldn't go through? Maybe I thought that if I announced we would only run him up to L-1, he wouldn't actually be lynched?
I don't think you can discount the possibility of me being scum WITH Sweezy.

[Whiskers]

Re:Timestamp,
Yes, it didn't look natural because it wasn't. I was going over the top because we didn't need to spend a lot of time on it. Why didn't we need to spend time on it? Because:
-I don't think it would be that useful to find the vig.
-I don't think finding the vig specifically is very useful (Ask rainbow dash. Scum win without firing ANY shots.)
-The mod said not to. Which might not always be a good reason, but staying on a topic where we have to tread on eggshells isn't going to be productive, it's just going to be a place where scum can comment to look busy.

Also, when I asked (iirc), the mod said that it WAS a delayed kill. I don't find it in the ISO now, but I believe it was editted out.

[Whiskers]

Idk how to feel about yabba. Yeah, nopony came in to stop the lynch (except RC), but he looks like scum who has given up on the game-- plays loose and doesn't care about how he looks.
idk.
Also, My two townreads plus goodplayer Rainbow Dash are on his wagon. Plus, Eidolon was interested in him. If Yabbaguy were the vig, it would make a lot of sense for him TO kill Eidolon before he got lynched.

[Whiskers]

Well yeah, but look at who their two heads are. Did you expect content? I'm happy to not have "YOU MUST HATE JIGGLYPUFF BWAAAARRRAAAARAAAAAR"

[Whiskers]

I'm kind of assuming they're a VI and giving them a free pass because of "Too dumb to scum"

XD


On the other hoof, why aren't they posting? Why

aren't

they spamming up the thread? Scum(Dash) for instance, would coach them to lay low. Not accusing either one. That's just where my mind goes.

[Whiskers]

Er... They are disorganized.. how? More like, they just aren't posting. Which is a completely valid playstyle for scum, in this setup.

If it were me, personally, I'd have them play normally and bus them for towncred the moment they start to go down. However, Dash (again, just an example, idk what others would do) would tell them to keep quiet and only be as active as possible. In other words, she'd play strategically for the team, I'd play survivalist. But-- It would keep them quiet.

That doesn't mean they aren't just plain not posting, town or scum.

But they haven't been "disorganized"

Jigglymence I'm gonna call Town, I thought they would've put a distress call in Daytalk and asked scumbuddies to catch them up on things so that they could make a proper post. The fact that they're so disorganized and incapable of formulating their thoughts at this moment actually leads me to think they're clean.

We need to take into account this Daytalk and nail people who look like they're trying to upkeep a narrative.

, only lurking.

Actually, this is kind of interesting. yabbaguy, don't you think that if J(P2) went to the mafia QT and asked, "Hey, what's going on in this thread?" that their partners would be smart enough to say, "read the thread yourself"?
Jigglymence has

no

pressure on it, so aren't required to instantly know everything and be able to post, and
If they got "what is going on" from somepony else in the thread, wouldn't it "look like they're trying to keep up a narrative"?

Nothing points to them being scum, but lurking. They could be town, but I don't think your reasons for it are valid.

[Whiskers]

Klick, what is your read on RainbowDash?
Notes: 42, 44

[Whiskers]

Kimor's wrong on his last post, if true, then RC would've told me that by Daytalk,

Also, stop doing this. Just because it is the best move in some cases to talk in Daytalk, doesn't mean scum ONLY talks in day talk, or that they don't post things here. This is WIFOM

at best

. There's a bunch of reasons why RC scum wouldn't say this to yabbascum in daytalk, but the most likely ones are,

"He didn't feel like it,"

or,

"He forgot."

[Whiskers]

Johnny, what is your read on Kimor?

I have a few more townreads right now.

Vote: yabbaguy

Worst case scenario, you flip town. Okay?

[Whiskers]

If Yabba is town, Whiskers should be the obvious vengekill.

See, here I was going to let

him

make the decision. Silly me.

Okay, Yabba acted the same way in Rainy Days mafia - nearly giving up when about to be lynched as town.

I'd rather go with Johnny, Whiskers or Sweezy right now.

And I

love

how you can completely read a player based on one previous game.

[Whiskers]

Agreeing with Rapid here. Definitely liking the idea of getting Yabba to shoot Johnny.

Also, I just realised that Kimor's ShadedMelee's replacement, I'm happy to call him town.

Well, so much for that. Thanks for blowing it for me.

It does make me wonder though, why was Shaded town, when he was scum?

[Whiskers]

I have to agree with Klick and not Birds here: There is huge scum incentive to lurk in this game. Lynch someone scummy and let them vig a lurker.
And what, we can always lynch Johnny tomorrow. In fact, I had planned on it, if yabba flipped town.

[Whiskers]

No, he's just Bad At Mafia (tm).
He's not a noob, he is just new to MS.net. He comes from another site. I haven't seen him as scum and the asinine play he's exhibited here fits his town meta (of three recent games) to a t.
He's the town you love to hate, but hate to have a townread on.

On the other hand, he does make good cases from time to time, and usually even his bad cases are sound, they just don't feel right (ie, Rainbow Dash).

[Whiskers]

@Kimor: I stand by the whole "Shaded townslipped" thing, that's pretty much the entirety of my read.

I must have missed this-- completely. What?

[Whiskers]

^That's true. Alliances are only good if they're all town, though.

Rainbow Dash. Only one of those posts you linked, 408, is at all scummy to me. That that's because I

hadn't

noticed it before he pointed it out. Since he apparently noticed it from something someone else said, I figure I would have noticed it too. Since he didn't cite

where

he read it, I figured he made it up-- if he's scum. And If he's scum, that's probably the action he took.

Now: on the topic of RC. His fight with Eidolon doesn't match up with the Eidolon kill, but that doesn't mean he's not scum, it just means he's not the vig. You of all ponies should know that sometimes the vig's play doesn't match up with the play of all the other mafia members.
Also: What's to keep you from being scum, Rainbow Dash? ScumDash instructing her fellows how to play, so she can build towncases on them, and stick one (two, counting yourself) in an alliance?

[Whiskers]

...
The carrot was for RD's post, not Kimor's.

[Whiskers]

The only games I've seen her not suggest it in, iirc, are the ones where I suggested it first. And promptly got no support from her. I think it may be a tactic to figure out how receptive Town is to the idea.
In the mindset of RainbowDash, if the town likes it, then you find a reason to move out a townie, and put a scumbuddy in the alliance instead.

Or you just put one in there to begin with.

Let me go check the game that I remember where the Alliance actually worked-- and RainbowDash was scum.

[Whiskers]

Alright. Not normally a big deal, but I don't feel like my vote is being useful (that's what happens when you put it on a lurker.)

Vote: JigglymenceP2

Salamence has been active on the site and has had ample opportunity to post in this game. The fact that she is not doing so gives me pause.
Especially considering that, come on, it's Salamence. I'd expect spam, not lurking.
This is a vote to lynch. Lurking is a severe departure from Sal's town meta.

[Whiskers]

Wait, that's L-1? Lol.

@Kimor: Not unless Sweezy has been skulking around elsewhere (and here) onsite. I've seen Salamence in the "Users browsing this forum" several times but she isn't posting.

[Whiskers]

The fact that im town? This is like saying we shouldnt listen to anypony because they might be scum. In this case even if I got one town read wrong I still have RC as the rock that is town basically no matter what happens. Unless its Klick-NU as a team we are basically golden with that alliance, and as I said, if there is a second kill or a scum death we should be able to tack another onto the outside of that alliance and run with it.

It's not that we can't use tells because everything is WIFOM-- wait, actually, that's exactly it.
We can't

clear

anyone an something that can be coached. We can only

catch

players.

Also, I don't know if you're trying to draw a Daykill to him, but

Klick is town

You forgot to give this

any

weight.
And if that's the case, I don't think putting him in your town alliance is going to draw that kill to him, it'll draw it to you.

[Whiskers]

I would really like it if you stopped trying to ruin my plans for manipulating scum kills.

That's great, but I can't tell if you're manipulating kills or not. If I want someone killed... well, I don't think I'd put them in the "Town Alliance."

[Whiskers]

Actually, I'm hoping for a replacement for Sweezy. Both heads of the Hydra are casual posters-- they post when they feel like (and more often than not, don't have content). That's their playstyle, town or scum. But Neither one of them would keep their mouths shut if they were put at L-1. If they

thought

they were put at L-1. They wouldn't be quiet if they thought they were going to be lynched.

Something is up here.

+Mod:
Also, Salamence (one of the heads) PMed me in response to something I wrote in a public thread. I continued the conversation, but it wasn't about the game-- the closest thing was my reference to her being in a hydra.
I don't think I crossed any lines, but I'm not wholly comfortable with PM conversations with players I'm in games with.

[Whiskers]

No, fuck

you

for not playing. You are as much to blame as the other head of the hyrda. You both signed up to play this game. The account should be twice as active, not half.

[Whiskers]

I'm unwilling to kill Dashie D1. She's smart and useful. If she's alive late into the game, we either know she's scum or know our scum is stupid. But she lives for now.

See RD,

this

is what it looks like when you're trying to direct a vig kill. Not "Let's put him in our variably-aligned voting block!"

[Whiskers]

Vote: Johnny Ferrari

, btw.

[Whiskers]

Mainly? For directing the kill somewhere we rather

don't

want it to go.
Also, I'm sure I could dig up somepony else's case on you to sheep. I just didn't.
Consider it an oppourtunistic jump-- although, it was really to emphasize how bad I think that post of yours was. If I had my way, I'd still be voting LurkerSalamence (and maybe even ?Yabbaguy), too.

[Whiskers]

Because, despite what a votecount or two might say, I only have the normal number of votes.

[Whiskers]

Yes, well, watch me shrug vigorously.

Why do I personally need to convince people to vote for Johnny? I have a reason I voted for him, and maybe they'll like that, or have a different reason. Maybe they'll have a better reason to vote someone else.
Why do I have to personally convince people to vote for JigglymenceP2? I already said their inactivity was super weird. People will agree or not, and they will vote, or not.

I didn't do a big whiny push like RC, no. Is that what you're looking for from me?

[Whiskers]

Uh... except everything. If you thought you could call the scumteam, and one of those players in your called-scumteam is dead (flipped town), then you obviously couldn't have called the scumteam. If it doesn't change anything, then you're going to call the scumteam... including a confirmed(flipped)town player!?

[Whiskers]

NO.

I read enough of Salamence's post to realize she was starting a critique of the

WHOLE GAME

from the beginning? NO. You've been IN this game, we are TWENTY pages in, and if you are only

just now

reading from the beginning then you deserve to be modkilled and blacklisted. Go die. I officially Do Not Care about anything else you might have to say in that post. Truly, I did not read it.

Instead, I scrolled down past that waste of Ones and Zeroes to Rainbow Dash's post--

We arent lynching JF. He is one of the biggest ones that the vig kill points AWAY from.

This does not mean he is not scum.

It actually kinda does.

NO.

GOD! What is WRONG with you?! Vig=/=entire scum team. You are not stupid.

IF

the Eidolon-vig-kill points away from Johnny (Which I'm currently taking your word for, because what the fuck are you talking about, how does it do that?), Then it points

AWAY from Johnny BEING THE VIG

. NOT FROM JOHNNY BEING SCUM. The Vig is not the entire scum-team. The Vig might make personal decisions, might want to save itself, might be a bad player, might not listen to it's partners, might just shoot the most-unanimous townread, might try to frame some player-- The TOWNreads you're getting from the Vigkill are

HUGELY

wifom and not anywhere near as useful as SCUMREADS you COULD be getting. You are throwing horse shit in our faces and I'm tired of it. Scumhunt.

[Whiskers]

However, I like Kimor's post.

[Whiskers]

Unvote

I won't vote with that

thing

.

However, I did forget to vote

for

that thing, in my first post there (so:)

Vote: JigglymenceP2

[Whiskers]

I'm not sure if you're trying to stage a towntell or what. This isn't even "I came under pressure of one vote, oh it's too much, replace me!" it's just, "I'm a lazy cunt and one of the players has an issue with it! Replace me!"

Good to see you aren't interested in improving yourself. At all.

[Whiskers]

Lynching on activity is usually for the sole purpose of getting rid of people who don't post content. Compare Sweezy's content to JP2's.

To put it another way: if Sweezy is actual-mafia, he'll continue to look scummy in later days, and we'll lynch him. P2 is, essentially, a policy lynch.
Which, Day 1, is what we don't want.

Remind me of the 4-vote wagons? (Or give a votecount?) I'm going to pick the scumread that I trust most.

[Whiskers]

Basically, that. You look like you really want to protect Salapuff-- at least postponing it's lynch until "too late to make policy lynches." That's scummy to me.

Idr if it was town or scum, but I actually saw someone convince town to wait and policy lynch a player on Day 2, then on Day 2 when someone brought it up, they said, "No, the time has past for policy lynches. That should happen on Day 1."
Pissed me off.

Regardless, I want to lynch Salapuff because you want to

not

do so.
You're a townread, Kimor, but I haven't put you in my All-Cat Alliance yet.

[Whiskers]

^posts when his name is said?

Silly Rainbow, I'd lynch Jonny before Kimor OR Birds. I'm actually about to go read Birds in ISO to see if I can rationalize his lynch to myself.

But I will say, it looks like you're trying to limit us to these lynches when we have so much time (and indeed, so little agreement) that we could lynch just about

anypony.

I've got my eye on you. And that's one of the reasons I'd lynch Johnny.

[Whiskers]

Eido liked JF a bit, I was very on edge about him and was openly suspecting him to a bit while pushing yabba instead. So JF kills Eido over me? Both would leave suspicion on yabba (again, prob-town is JF is scum) but getting rid of me eliminates the one taking some pace controll over the game and had residual supicion of him. Also again, it leaves suspicion on yabba with an Eido kill who in turn is suspect of JF. Yabba-town has a medium to high chance of having a death of JF from vig, something him as scum would probably be thinking of.

Could you please explain and elaborate on this paragraph? I really didn't understand it.

[Whiskers]

Now: I want to talk theory for a minute.
There are two groups that make sense to kill Eidolon. The first group is her strong lynch-pushes. Yabbaguy was one of her strong pushes. She was attacking him over any other player. And, he was nearly lynched. If he felt threatened by Eidolon and was the vig, he'd vig her. If he thought he was going to be lynched, and thought Eidolon was the most-unanimous or most-useful townread, he'd vig her above other townies. This has already been discussed, I think, and we all pretty much understand it.
The other group that might vig her is Eidolon's townreads. I know this is true but I can't remember why. I'm racking my brain, but I know that, at the very least, vigging a player with a townread on you gives you a lot of towncred from WIFOM: "Why would X vig Eidolon when she has a townread on it?"
So, I think those are the two groups we should look into.
Also: Rainbow Dash has said something to the effect of, "More experienced scum wouldn't shoot this early." I think we can rule out

pretty much

any player who has played in this setup before from being vig, as well as players who are more experienced site-wide and tend to think things through. Who is the group left, the one I think we should look at? "Newbies." But also players who are more impulsive or foolish.
However, I would exclude RapidCanyon from all lists, because I do not believe he would vig Eidolon, especially when she is coaching him away from being lynched. That is a personality tell.

So, if we are to be vig-hunting, that is what I think we need to take under advisement

at least

.

[Whiskers]

@Rainbowdash Okay, fair enough. First paragraph makes sense, and the second paragraph is what I forgot to explicitly say in my last post-- Eidolon's null-reads are

rather unlikely

to be the vig. If JFar became one of those toward the end, then no, he wouldn't have much incentive to shoot Eidolon.

Now: In you last (before that one, I mean) post, you said you'd lynch yabbaguy second, but he didn't seem so scummy because he hasn't posted much. You and I both know that lurking is incredibly pro-scum. I'm not seeing Birds as scum-- but how would you feel about lynching yabbaguy today?

[Whiskers]

Who would Birds vig kill, were he town?

[Whiskers]

^THAT is an interesting point. I like that. That's why you're a townread, Kimor. Unless you're me, I don't know why scum would point out things like that.

Still, I'm voting to lynch yabbaguy today. His wagon had support and Eidolon wanted to lynch him. As soon as the shot came, not only did he mysteriously lose all suspicion, but he said, "Oh phew, now that Eidolon's gone my wagon is disbanded. Right?". He had a motive to make the kill, he hasn't been productive since, AND, I think I can make associative tells against Birds if yabbaguy flips scum-- so everypony is happy.

vote: yabbaguy

BTW, Rainbow Dash, in Eidolon's last post regarding Birds, she listed him as a townread. Why would Birds, but not Johnny, shoot Eidolon when she has them both as town? Defending scumbuddy yabbaguy? Maybe.

[Whiskers]

Eh. Nevermind. Yabbaguy now has NO wagon.
I don't really have a preference-- I mean, I do, but I'm fencesitting on this one-- between Birds and Johnny. Obviously, I'd vote Johnny over Birds, as I have had a townread on Birds but not on Johnny. But JF is RainbowDash's townread, and why frustrate that?

I'm leaving my vote here, because [I think this is a good lynch, even if it won't go through], and I think there's still a chance it

could

go through.

[Whiskers]

Okay, interesting.
This doesn't change my read on Birds but I think it will solidify Kimor as town for me if Birds flips scum.

@Birds: In all seriousness, would you shoot yabbaguy, or johnny? (or even one of the lurkers?)
Because it looks like you're a favourite for a lynch and I don't see why not. If you're town, then I want to make sure you will pick a good vengekill target.
[preedit]
reading

[Whiskers]

I

still

feel like you're setting up a false dilemma here.

Yabba MAYBE... but when we would need three votes there and he would just self-preservation JF to make it four... not going to happen. Plus vig says more likely than not not him.

But, What the fuck is this? There is 100% motivation for Yabbaguy to be the vig. Yabbaguy would Vig Eidolon (specifically) because [a: she is the biggest townread] and [b: she is the driving force on the yabbaguy wagon]. Yabbaguy would Vig at all because [after he's lynched,

there would be no more vigging.

Better to look obvious and go down killing someone than to never shoot at all.]

Pretend you are scum in this, think of what type of apporach you would take to the game and look at 2b1s. Chances are they are very similar ones.

Unfortunately for me, not.

The big scummy move for me, when I read Birds' ISO, is the five-day away, and coming back just to vote the (once-)popular wagon.
I can see his posts from a scum motivation... but, what good is it to scumhunt if you've already convinced yourself the player is scum? If I have to assume he is scum and has scum motivation to see the scum motivation in his posts, that's not really figuring anything out, it's just going by gut.

[Whiskers]

There's no chance in hell I'm supporting a 2b1s wagon, Rainbowdash. He's obvious town, and the fact that both JF and Kimor are on 2b1s's wagon further proves that fact.

You do realize that Kimor is town, and that Johnny

may

be town, right? The fact that they are supporting the wagon is, uh, not a reason to shy away from it.

Okay, so Kimor wagon isn't happening either.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

The fact that RC is supporting a wagon, however, is.

So, going

away

from RC, and

with

Rainbow Dash;

vote: 2Birds

Also, I think I can confirm Dash from this flip.

[Whiskers]

Obvious Omgus RC is obvious.
And, yes.

[Whiskers]

If yabbaguy were the vig, and were about to be lynched, would he not shoot?
That's what you're telling me-- he wouldn't shoot "that early" if he were the vig, even though he was about to be lynched.


@Klick: I keep forgetting that you're kondi!
And shit, you don't flake like kondi, so I'm willing to treat you like the decent player kondi was [when he wasn't busy flaking].

If you keep reminding me, though, I am more likely to associate you with the conceptions I have of that account. This is this account. They are separate. Let them be so.

[Whiskers]

I know, Birds. I know.

[preedit]
K, give me a bit. It may be (and I hope it doesn't) come down to POE: "everyone else is scum so Kimor isn't."
Mostly I hope it isn't that, because I'd have to make good scumcases for all the other players.

[Whiskers]

Okay, I have nothing. We have some similar-ass reads, and I like this post here, post 5-something, and wonder why you can't respond to 3 or 4

3) and 4) are leads that can't really be proven or disproven.

when they are, I think, the strongest points--
but it doesn't look like there's anything really good to call him town for other than gut, and obviously, that's not 100%.
More likely, I just agreed with him at one point and put him into a town brain-category early on, and have defended it since.

But, on the flip side, can you tell me (or remind me, or link me) why he's

scum?

[Whiskers]

The vote was useless but the case was good. And, perhaps late in the day, but why not that vote? Reads change, especially when you provide a case. For example, RC, I'm asking for a case on scumKimor, or, at least, a link to one.

[Whiskers]

*goes to page 2*

[Whiskers]

Okay... admittedly, not the move I would have made.

[Whiskers]

I'd kill yabba. I don't like that hammer.

[Whiskers]

I mean, among other things. I wasn't voting for you because I don't have a strong read, one way or another, on you. I think there's a good chance yabbaguy is scum.

[Whiskers]

I don't like Name User's big analysis.
Since it's really not analysis, it's like, "Hey, did the flipped-scum scumslip?" Who cares!? "Hey, Klick made a list! What do you guys think?" Same thing I thought then. "Hey, Klick made another list! There's probably scum here, here, and here, three places I chose arbitrarily." Uhhhh....

[Whiskers]

^As much as I'm suspicious of you, I like this vote.

Do keep in mind though, that a bunch of people were calling Klick superobv town right before he was shot.

Looking back, those people were RC and Rainbowdash (But NOT Name User, I'm surprised to find).

This is only a cursory sweep of the last two pages, but those are the people calling Klick super town and "unanimous town read," etc. After a little more digging I'll probably vote one of them.

[Whiskers]

Out of those, I'm just going to assume that Scruffy is probably town due to the flash wagon on him, and that at least one scum voted him. According to my reads, that scum could only be yabbaguy or ShadedMelee, so I'm confident that there's at least one scum in that pair. Lets assume the most simple scenario and say that they're not both scum until proven otherwise.

Rapidcanyon replaces Scruffy.

So, here we have Klick with a townread on RapidCanyon, and with a one-or-the-other on yabbaguy and RainbowDash.

Idk where to vote. And I'm hesitant to clear yabbaguy, but I think that kill looks more and more like framing him.

[Whiskers]

Still think Whiskers is scum though clearing a townie.

What?

[Whiskers]

Okay-- let's keep in mind that you put Klick in your town-alliance, that you and RC said repeatedly that Klick was obviously town-- Can you see why you've lost credibility as a townleader this game? Also, RC is suspicious to me-- he just goes with it. No thoughts of his own: You call him town, you're town. You call Klick town, he's willing to defend that to the grave as well.

Which is neat-- you two are the ones who put Klick as "obv town" and

he was the vig

. Forgive me, but isn't that the absolute first goal for scum in this game? To make the vig 100% confirmed town?

[Whiskers]

But Rainbow Dash

did

propose an alliance. I'm not finding you suspicious because "it's my only option."

Seriously RC. Fighting with you is NOT the path of least resistance. If I wanted you on my side I'd call you town forever and ever. I am suspicious of you because YOU and Rainbow Dash were THE players who held [The Mafia Vig] at confirmed town status. For god's sake, at least

understand

why I'm accusing you. I'm not asking you to fucking agree with me, just

comprehend

and you'll be doing 100% better than other games I've played with you.

I"m not finding you suspicious because "it's my only option." And I'm not finding you suspicious enough to vote you. I'm waiting for someone else to HELP me, because I'm a little confused, and I really do doubt that Klick would make that Eidolon kill after seeing you two buddying so hard.

I'm NOT finding you suspicious because "it's my only option." I could completely ignore you and just attack 2birds (therefore buddying with an even more powerful player than you; Rainbow Dash), I could say, "Yabbaguy must still be mafia!" I could do a damn number of things. I have a few ideas and opinions and instead of you jumping in to whine and omgus me, maybe you could help me sort things out and town could win the fucking game.
Ok?

[Whiskers]

*I don't know. I'm not sure what you were trying to do.

3. Uh, whether or not I attack Birds, you'll be "on" me. There's no good reason for it, afaict, so I'm not going to pay it much mind-- that is, until you start spamming.

2. I know. The problem with this (for me) is that the kill was out of your hands.

It wasn't up to you

whether or not to kill Eidolon. I don't know how Klick played or how he normally does-- would he ask for "who to kill" in the QT? Would he Ask if he should kill yet? Would he just submit the kill and let you rant about it later? I can clear you from being the vig for Eiodlon dying-- but now the vig has flipped so that's not really useful. THAT'S the problem I have with this tell.

1. I'm not sure WHO he convinced that he was town. Like I said, I see you, I see RD, calling him obvtown-- and, interesting note,

townies are called obvtown by scum in a subtle attempt at buddying.

I think that's a good point and it is WHY I am susp. on you and RD.

It's nice that you don't think your interactions with Klick look scum-scum, but just like I don't have to convince you that you're scum, you don't have to convince you that you're town. "I would never do that as scum" really, REALLY doesn't work as a defence imo!

[Whiskers]

Why is Whiskers a town-read?

Why is Whiskers a scum-read?

[Whiskers]

Heyheyhey, I had Klick as conftown too, and approved of the alliance. Yeah, sure, on the one hand, having two scum in an alliance would be optimal for Dashscum, on the other hand, buddying your partner so blatantly never ends well. I really don't like this line of attack, we all thought Klick was town, and most of us didn't object too hard to the alliance, it was really just you and Kimor who were vocally against it.

Eh... I thought Klick was town, but not

obv

town. And I didn't understand why the rest of you did. On the Klick vs Kimor, I was definitely on the Kimor side.

I think Yabba's town now; advocating a vengeful shot against your dayvig is... not optimal. It's not even close to optimal. The town cred is not worth losing your last daykill.

This though, if fucking

interesting

. Remind me where yabbaguy advocated a vengeful shot against the dayvig?

[Whiskers]

3) "Not paying much mind" isn't going to help when I am trying to lynch you and you are trying to lynch 2b1s. It is an inherently flawed strategy as scum. The best scum strategy if I am trying to lynch you is to try and lynch me.

Sure it would. You haven't a case on me, Rainbow Dash has a case on Birds.
It's pretty simple: I get something on Birds. He's already had suspicion and will be easier to get a wagon on. You would have to start a

new

wagon on me. And you'd have to come up with something convincing to make other people want to lynch me.

2. Like I said, I don't know Klick. maybe he would have asked, maybe not.
If he

HAD

asked, wouldn't his teammates have told him, "No, don't shoot now"?
And, how could you have "Stopped him" if he

didn't

ask?

1. That's cool, but so far your track record with [things you've thought] turning out to be correct hasn't exactly been 100%.

[Whiskers]

Still think Whiskers is scum though clearing a townie.

What?

Why is Whiskers a town-read?

Why is Whiskers a scum-read?

[Whiskers]

Also, I look through your ISO and you mention ShadedMelee (replaced by rainbowdash) several times before he is actually replaced. You have a lot of focus on this player slot, it seems, and I am suspicious.

Can you tell me where you thought RD was "Being called town by everybody"? I'm going to look around in that area and see if that's actually the case (if not, you can feel free to start suspecting her again), but You were apparently pretty suspicious of her initially.

ALSO: you mention that (you think) Klick had most everyone fooled into thinking he was town. He then flipped scum. Aren't you a little bit worried that Rainbow Dash, who ,according to you, everybody thinks is town,

might be scum

? Especially since she has a reputation for being a prankster and a tomfool?

[preedit]

Still think Whiskers is scum though clearing a townie.

What?

Saying that Yabba was framed is probably true and probably something you did to get Yabba on your side.

Hardly. I'm still not 100% on yabbaguy either AND, if I remember correctly, you said before (in addition to

JUST NOW

) that you yourself thought yabbaguy was probably framed. Hypocrite much?

Why is Whiskers a town-read?

Why is Whiskers a scum-read?

His defense of RBD bordered on absurdity.

I'll have to look this up, but I really remember defending rainbow dash.
I mean, I don't doubt that I did it, but I don't remember what I said. Iirc, it was more an act of defying you than an act of defending her.

[Whiskers]

Also, AFTER you are accused of buddying, you start disagreeing with RBD at every chance.

Idk about this-- i actually really DON'T remember being accused of buddying with her.

[Whiskers]

@D3f3nd3r: Could you please list who replaces whom in the first post?

Done in first post -D3f

K, RC. whatever. I don't even know. I don't know if my information is correct. Whatever.

I don't have a big enough scumread anywhere to pursue it right now. Okay? Okay.

[Whiskers]

also i think i got my grammar wrong.

[Whiskers]

Grey ones are already covered somewhere else or are impossible-- for example: Pmys is all grey horizontally, because it has all white squares vertically. Also, whiskers + whiskers is grey.

grey basically means the combination has already been made. White is "possible scumteam" and green is "impossible scumteam."

I'd not discount my bussing of the RainbowDash slot. I bus hard, generally, as scum.

Also, If any one else feels like it, we could just lynch me today, and rapidcanyon can go back to looking for scum outside of me. We

have

gained a mislynch, after all.


Also, @684: I wasn't trying to appease you. I hadn't voted for you or any of my other scumreads because none of them were strong enough and I didn't know which I wanted to follow. I didn't back off because I wanted your favour (seriously. I'm not stupid. If you think I did something that yo uwould pick up on as obviously scummy, chances are I didn't do it for that reason.)-- I did it because my information, what I was attacking you with,

was wrong

.

So: RC, which is more-town? Backing off from an attack based on info that turned out to be wrong, or pushing an attack even after the info it's based on has turned out to be wrong?

[Whiskers]

I'm not sure what you mean ("Fuck off with the gallows"?) and I have bad memory between games-- and, even, IN games.
I have trouble keeping anything bigger than Mini Open games straight.

Also: Town or scum, I'd tell you that I (usually) bus hard. Truth-telling and forthrightness are kind of my gimmick, and why I am "good" as scum.

So, like I said before: RC wants to lynch me, I'm pretty much up for it.

[Whiskers]

Vote: Whiskers

Go for it. I'm sure you can find a couple of other players down for a Whiskers lynch.

[Whiskers]

I've selfvoted in towngames before-- I think.
I KNOW I've done it in scum games before. Selfvoted as the last scum for a gambit once (It was an appeal to emotion), didn't realize until after that I had hammered myself.

[Whiskers]

Oh come on, you're just saying that because I had a townread on you. You're probably my scumbuddy!

[Whiskers]

Where are the players to this game?

[Whiskers]

vote: zabriel

Pony needs to saddle up.
Afraid to get your tail wet?

[Whiskers]

NU has given back a ton of his townpoints to me over the end of day one and today given the flips, especially where he asks why he ISNT scum with Kimor, which doesnt feel like town questioning to me. His whole last post is the epiotome of keeping doors open with a post that can easily land him on four different wagons - all who others are showing interest in.

He still is sorta town, but is clear behind top three.

This would be a really super way to at once bus and protect your scumbuddy.

@Yabba - So im scum because... I called three players secondary suspects? Im not sure what you are saying really there. Yeah, I have three strong town reads, NU who is still townish but behind them, three more null reads and then a strong scum read. Not going to just start making up reads or anything if they really are null.

You're scum because... your posts tell us that you suspect nearly half the town of being the remaining two scum-- hey, that's the same as NU's post you just bitched about! Cool!
Actually, if one were to read further, one would find that you really suspect

more

than half of the town of being one of the two remaining scum; you only have three town reads.

All I need at this point are town reads. If I can pick out three 100% town reads we win. Period. I would like to lynch in a certain way and of course not get lynched, but really if we are sure of three reads we win. Given that the vig was vengekilled, it stops bus worries on that slot some.

"If

I

can pick out three 100% town reads

we

win." Great, but who are you referring to as "we"? I bet if YOU can pick out three 100% town reads, that YOU can win, but the jury is still out on which faction YOU belong to. Then,
"If

we

are sure of three reads

we

win."
Rainbowdash, did you notice "I" suddenly became "we"?

RC is town

Wrong,

You are almost for sure town

Wrong,

Kimor is town

This one I'll agree with you on.
But you really can't determine that RC is

not

-anything but the Vig-- which we already know now, because the vig is dead and flipped. Similarly: yabbaguy acted really weird around the time of Eidolon's vigging and his wagon just

died

out because of it-- and you. Yabbaguy is playing a bit better now, but I don't see anything that can tell us firmly that he is

not

-anything, except the vig. And he might be the vig-- if Johnny hadn't already caught him.
Please remember: the shot, in combination with your attack on Birds, completely derailed the yabbaguy wagon. And no, RapidCanyon wouldn't have shot Eidolon (probably), but when he's not in control of the shot, all bets are off.





How many times in a row can we lynch town before the game is over?

[Whiskers]

Well first he didnt meltdown over pressure.

Which he has done many times as town.

RC is pretty bad scum, this would be a massive swing in skill over a single game which I dont see happening.

Is he? I've never seen him play scum on this site.

Add that into a push on Kimor at the end of the day, which absolutely could have happened and resulted in an almost for sure Klick death, I just dont think that RC is scum here.

Still not sure I get that. Kimor was going to kill his "unanimously" town-read attacker? OMGUS?

His play reads town and even though he called Klick a strong town read, the location of his vote throughout the day doesnt match up with it as much.

So, his actions don't match up with his words. That's always an indication of town. right?

If Klick was TOWN I actually would be interested in a RC lynch a little at this point given that Kimor vote, but RC is probably town.

Yes, probably, but not for any reason.

Plus to an extent... to bad to be scum.

RC is pretty bad scum,

Come

on

. You're this inconsistent over the course of a single post?

That case on me was so ugly I think some partner would have tried to help him with that. Zero way he puts that out and doesnt have a partner yell at him or try and help him.

Or, you know, just call him confirmed town for it later.

When I was scum in this I basically was coaching partners as to where attacks should be and what points they needed to bring up when they were stalling out. Maybe I shouldnt always assume competent scum, but im going to at least assume half smart scum.

Oops! Looks like somepony forgot about the lurkers!

[Whiskers]

The fact that 2b1s flat-out defends RBD who is trying to lynch him makes me certain that either RBD is town and he is trying to appease her or that RBD is scum and this is a planned bus. Now way is his a townie reaction.

VOTE: 2birds1stone

Sorry for not mindlessly OMGUSing, I guess.

Yeah seriously.

I find it really odd that you are refusing to vote for someone who is trying to lead a lynch on you.

Shit, RC, we can't all be as bad at this game as you are. That's not the way the game works.

[Whiskers]

If [tunneling someone for bad reasons]=[scum], RC, you would be lynched very,

very

quickly.

How much do we trust Rainbowdash? I'm almost willing to selfvote again, because apparently all we need to do is lynch everything except rainbowdash and her "townreads." At the same time, I kind of want to be around to personally handle the situation when her townreads include scum #3, but that's me being a control freak (or just a responsible player?) and sure, whatever, I'll relinquish the reins to someone else.

[Whiskers]

the Ksun/Jigglymence/Pmysterious slot has total of 18 posts. I might even be willing to do that.
Besides, RainbowDash's plan is "lynch everybody but these four (variably scummy) players," and iirc, Neither of the Lurkers are in that group.

Yes. I'm down for a PM or Zabriel lynch.

[Whiskers]

Okay. This is going to sound bad, but I do think PM is a better lynch-- we know how PM plays, but I've never seen Zabriel, so he may be good or bad. Also, that playerslot at least had some reads for us to look at.

I am very surely "testing the water" here-- but if we're lynching a lurker think we could lynch PM first.

[preedit]
or not. w/e.

[Whiskers]

Okay, so I am interested in this:

3) Yabba still looks bad. His way of responding to Eido seems more along the lines of somepony hoping a push goes away by just trying to take shots at the case. My only wonderance here is why Eido dies instead of me, which I think the answer is RC was interested in me (more townpoints to RC) and scum see me as maybe maybe a lynch later.

Of course that would almost suggest that yabba is town because if I got yabba-scum lynched I probably would not be lynchable outside of a really late game situation where I had been wrong about most else.

Plus I was the more aggressive yabba pusher recently and had far more game sway over yabba.

I think if I was right I would have been targeted, so that suggest yabba-town. So im changing Eido-death to mean that yabba gets town points

Particularly, the bolded, since you only had once post prior pressuring yabbaguy, here (228).
Then, I'd like you to explain why the red is a product of the blue. You say yabba is town because if you lynched him as scum you'd be confirmed(ish) town-- so what? How does that keep him being from scum? And how does that have anything to do with the Eidolon kill?

[Whiskers]

Okay. NOW:
Rainbow Dash can't be scum with any of the remaining players because there aren't enough scum left in the game for that to be possible.

Would we be opposed to a PM lynch (because i would really really hate to let this slip between our hooves 'cause a lurker lurked)? I'd probably be willing to lynch Birds today, but I have to (as usual) look into Rainbow Dash as well.
Still not seeing yabbaguy as confirmed town or anything, ALSO, I wonder where Name User is.
I am not 100% coonvinced that RapidCanyon is town, but he is at the bottom of my list, next to Kimor, who I am also not 100% on.

We should have... what, six mislynches until Lylo? Five?

[Whiskers]

Look at 227, 281, there is no way these posts came from town defending scum and my 284 explains it. It was scum defending a player that in their opinion was persuasive/dangerous/"powerful."

AAAAAAAAAAAAH,

YES!

Because town knows who scum is and town defending scum looks noticeably different from town defending other town. This bits make sense only if you assume

first

that I am scum.


Really? You

really

want me to demolish this?

I think we should choose between RBD and Whiskers for the lynch today.

Already limiting our options to two. Hey, isn't it cool, since then it's been ignored and two scum have been killed.

I'll let the others weigh in on it.

I'm glad you did; nobody else gave a shit about this post, if I remember Correctly.

I think the Whisker's defense shows that he is extremely invested in RBD's survival.

I'll stop you here, because it's wrong. I am not, nor was I ever, "heavily invested in RBD's survival." I was arguing

against you

. You made bad posts and bad points and I attacked them. Read into it what you like (I simply can't stop you doing that), but this was anti-RC, not pro-RD.

A case against RBD would merit a response from RBD

with Whiskers (along with others) compare the responses and see whether to lynch.

I don't understand why the underlined (emphasis mine) was tacked onto this sentence. I read it in context, it still doesn't make sense. If I squint and tilt my head a little, I'd say: The reason so many people responded negatively to your crappy case on RBD is because it was crappy. I go for easy targets, RC, when I want to dismantle a case-- I like to really destroy them, and I can't do that with a good case. Yours was not a good case. People hopped on because, if nothing else, it makes them feel like they're good at the game. Someone comes in with the worst case this side of Canterlot, someone else lays charges and blows it wide open, then they pat themselves on the back while the case-maker is brought to a lynch. If it flips scum, they congratulate themselves some more and call themselves good scumhunters; if it flips town, they blacklist it or at least vow to policy lynch it Day 1 from then on out.

Whiskers is aggressively defending RBD either hoping for towncred or discouraging a lynch on her. Regardless of RBD's affiliation, the following posts are NOT town.

You're kidding. You're kidding, right?

Way too eager to defend someone who is supposedly a scary-good player.

I'm not defending RBD. Your point here was, that RBD is scum because she said "RC is scum" and not "I

think

RC is scum." Yes. That is absolute bullshit. I, and every other player who rolled their eyes or pointed and laughed at you, would roll their eyes or point and laugh at you were you to attribute this "scumslip" to

any other player

. No. Saying "You are scum" and not "I

think

you are scum" is NOT a scumslip. EVER.

NO. NO, FUCKING STOP IT RIGHT NOW. FUCKING NO. YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED. STOP PLAYING THE GAME. GET UP AND WALK AWAY FROM YOUR COMPUTER. COME BACK TOMORROW. NO.

Again, trying too hard to take RBD's side.

How the fuck is this trying to take RD's side? You said, "LYNCH ME OR RBD!" That's

asinine

. Push on your scumreads if you want, but

this is never a good idea, it is always a bad one

, especially from you, to go 1v1 with a scumread (who is a scumread for non-reasons). You particularly, because you are most usually wrong. And, you particularly, because if Rainbowdash had agreed to this, you would have been lynched about a whole page after.
You have a reputation for being crap. Nobody else is going to pay attention to your great grand scumreads and that you want to go 1v1 with them. It makes you look overly aggressive (scummy), and even if you do get yourself and your nemesis lynched, you're likely as not to have led the town to two mislynches. Remember how I said that, if RC is on the wagon, it's a good reason to avoid it?
I'm not discrediting, you have no credit to begin with. I treat you like a player with the skill level you have.

YOU are. YOU do. In YOU, it looks like you're protecting a scumbuddy. In Eido, it looks like an attack.

Just false.

AAAAAAAAAH. Okay. Everyone else knows it's "just false" because YOU said so. YEP. YOU WOULDN'T LIE AS SCUM, WE CAN TRUST YOU EVEN THOUGH YOUR ALIGNMENT ISN'T DETERMINED!? COOL.
You had accused RBD of "fabricating scumtells," which she hadn't. I'll go deeper into this in a second. First:
RBD had had a weak scumread on you. Didn't like you. Thought you were scum, maybe, but had more confident reads that she wanted to pursue. You press her until she gives you reasoning, like a weak scumread on you is the most fucking important thing ever and you have to put a stop to it RIGHT NOW. She gives you weak reasoning for her weak read and you freak out and build a biiiiiig OMGUS case. Everyone points out to you that you're clearly an idiot OMGUSsing, but I do it the loudest because I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate playing with you and wouldn't miss you if you left the site forever because you refuse to learn or adapt, so you attack me, because I take the time to go point by point and tell you that

you are wrong

instead of just handwaving and ignoring you. Because I keep thinking, "Oh, maybe he'll figure it out if I explain WHY he's wrong."

Now: Rainbow Dash's weakly supports a weak read. She says, "You were in support of and SM lynch or a JF lynch, but always pushed JF, not SM. You lumped them together as if they were both scum, but

always

pushed on JF.” Only, she said it in fewer words.
Your counter is that that applies to anyone. Well, no, it doesn’t apply to people with only one strong suspect, or no strong suspects, but your example is Eidolon, who you say was in support of both JF and SM, with a preference for SM.
But, like I said in that post, what I remembered was that Eido had been arguing with JF for a while, and came to announce that she thought he was town, but then had a scumread on yabbaguy and then had a scumread on SM.
In short: Rainbow Dash accused you of something, you used an example of someone else doing something else to defend yourself. I haven’t done the research to see if you really did what RBD accused you of, I’m just saying that, What you are being attacked for and what Eidolon did are different.

Rainbow Dash is allowed to have scumreads. She's allowed to have reasons for it.

Of course she is. I pointed out why the poor reasoning behind her reads makes her likely scum. The fact that you say it that way is telling.

Nope. If poor reasoning behind reads makes someone scum, then you are scum, you are scum.

No. Stop it. You biggest scum read in this game, and in EVERY game you've ever played on MS, is the player who suspects you. NO.

Trying too hard to discredit a scum-read on RBD.

No, I’m trying to discredit you, regardless of who you are attacking. Or, like I said above, you’d have to have some credit to begin with.

I am almost certain at this point that Whiskers is scum.

Some more OMGUS.

RBD is either town or the 2X dayvig.

Oh maaaan, RBD is either town or SUPER MEGA SCUM!!! But not for any reason. There’s no reason she couldn’t be a goon -- of couse, in your case, there’s no reason she couldn’t be town, either.

I'll settle for lynching either.

Big surprise, RC is down for lynching whomever attacks him.

Also, Whiskers playstyle has been markedly different from his town meta where he agrees or disagrees with parts of cases providing good reasoning.

This is interesting -- but like I said, you can’t know my meta, I try different things in different games-- in part to keep from having a meta.

Here, he is just desperate either to stop RBD's lynch or for RBD's approval.

And then we have this bs again: no. I am not interested in winning RBD’s approval. Just like I’m not interested in winning yours. I am interested in fighting both of you tooth and nail until the game is over-- you, because your shit play makes everyone think you’re confirmed town every game and it’s fucking infuriating; you deserve to be punished, not rewarded-- and RD because she’s damn hard to lynch and even harder to read.

[Whiskers]

If RBD is scum and I am town, I have to be extremely stupid and lose all credibility by endgame?
I don't know if I can handle such a feat. Nobody can be as stupid as extremely, or lose credibility as quickly, as you, RC.

[Whiskers]

I don't care if you're right if you made lucky guesses. Other players have to use their brains, you just whine.
And, if I am really town, the we'll see at endgame that you are

not

right, since you tell us over and over that I must be scum.

[Whiskers]

Rapid, stop being a prick.

If your case is as strong as you think it is, it will stand up on its own. There is no need to drag it into the grave and make the whole town hate you in the process.

Whiskers, stop responding to him. it will just clutter everything up and make it more difficult to get any lynch to happen. You know that arguing with him like that is futile.

Whiskers, if you keep arguing with him, I

will

take it as a scum tell. you were scum last game that you did this with him. you know it just f*cks things up for town by making everything cluttered and gets people unfocused on scum hunting.

[Whiskers]

Silly.
I went from attacking you to attacking RD.

You apparently also haven't seen me as scum, beyond that one game. I'll show you another scum game I was in where I didn't do that at all. (Open 438, Masons and Mafia)

Then I will explain that my town game improved drastically once I started trying to match my town play to my scum meta.

---

Rainbowdash, 755, please.

[Whiskers]

I'd lynch RD. I think it might be about time to lynch Birds. I don't know where to put NU. His posts have been town, I think, but few.
I'm kind of going over, in my head, the idea of lynching RD and then turning around and crunching RC.
I don't understand why yabbaguy is thought to be town, and I think he still could be scum.
PM is a lurker and we can't get a read on him, town or scum, because of it. Unfortunately, if he does play, we're not going to get any other read than, "you really suck at this game" (I remember a defense that was something along the lines of, "YOU HATE JIGGLYPUFF")-- NOT an alignment read.

But, look. Eidolon also had a thing with Birds, right? I'm not 100%, I've been having trouble putting reads with players. There have been fewer lists than in most of the games I play.

Actually, what if we did that? Let's make lists.

[preedit]
Hey, speaking of Birds.
I'm going to go make a list now, but I thought I might also mention that RC's point about me trying to appease other players could apply to RainbowDash-- for example, calling Kimor, RC, yabbaguy, town. It might just be that I don't understand all the reasoning behind it.

Also: Birds, if you're still around, give me a list of reads, maybe with shorthand reasons for them?

[Whiskers]

I agree with her reason, but I disagree with her that is IS a reason for you being scum.
And, of course, if she is scum, then you aren't. I would certainly lynch Rainbow Dash before you, regardless of whether or not we eventually DO lynch you.
If we lynch RD first, and she flips town, the next place to go is Birds, I think-- but, we still need to do something about the PM slot and I still don't understand why we forgot about yabbaguy.

Oh wow. And I

literally

keep forgetting about NU.

[Whiskers]

wat.

[Whiskers]

=__(\

[Whiskers]

I agree with her reason, but I disagree with her that is IS a reason for you being

Town

.

^fixed this, since I said the wrong one.

[Whiskers]

WHY?!?!?! COULD SOMEBODY ANSWER MY QUESTION, PLEASE?

Question? What question? Please show us so we can answer.

^lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol.

[Whiskers]

I'm kind of going over, in my head, the idea of lynching RD and then turning around and crunching RC.

Scumslip maybe?

It was hardly a slip. I stated my intentions. Put whatever alignment on it you'd like-- there's nothing to say that RC isn't scum.

I know game is still going if I get lynched here, but why do you come up with this chain of lynches if you are town?

What other chain of lynches should I come up with, God&Leader Dash?

I have my groupings of preference sure -

OH YES, AND THAT IS

SOOOOO MUCH LESS SCUMMY THAN THE SAME THING.

but you seem really sure that me dying means the game isnt over.

BUUUUUUULLSHIT. I don't have any reason to STOP at you like it's only possible that you are scum and no way any other player could be nope no way that's impossible only rainbow dash could possibly be scum of course because she voted me omgusomgusomgusomgus I'M NOT RAPIDCANYON!

Also I explained my yabba-town read off the vig kill a couple of times apart from 755 I think.

YEAH, AND IT NEVER MADE SENSE. After I finish fucking you here I'll go and fuck that post too.

I think the order of lynches is something like

Whiskers/PM
NU
Yabba/2b1s (I would go yabba first but not by a lot)
RC and Kimor for town

That's cool-- especially since you were

so certain

yesterDay that it was Birds. But no, cool, whatever.
hey, weren't you trying really hard to NOT lynch a lurker yesterday? Oh yeah, until the SCUM LURKER was killed. Now you're TOTALLY ALL FOR lynching lurkers. Whiskers, then PM! Because now that your scumbuddy is out of the way, there's nothing to stop you from lynching ANY lurkers in the game!

If I can get yabba/2b1s/kimor to agree to NEVER TOUCH RC im fine just putting myself wherever in that.

Vote: Rainbow Dash

Unless you are scum, you can not say with any real certainty that RC is not scum. Since there is no vig, this can not possibly be a ploy to try to get a scummy, bad player daykilled. Eidolon kill means RC is not the vig. NOTHING ELSE. RC being retarded means that RC is retarded. NOTHING ELSE.

Of course I would rather it be later because I at least get some redemption this game that way,

Hey, you know, with me gone, you'll have 100% control over the town. Right, wrong, scum, town, who gives a shit? Rainbow Dash is town leader! Call it from the rooftops! As long as we follow her blindly and pretend like she's confirmed town, we'll do fine. Right? Right?!

but its like ive been saying since after the vig, we just keep Kimor and RC alive its a cakewalk.

YES, FOR YOU

.

Hey, remember how you said,

@RC - So im scum for refusing to lynch somepony when AS SCUM right now

I would need to lynch six town in a row?

So-- This is huge incredible WIFOM, and you know it. That's why you do it. You won't

be

lynched if you're scum,

especially

if town follows you.
But remember how you said you need to lynch six town in a row to win? that's what you're doing when you say "WE JUST NEED TO KEEP KIMOR AND RC ALIIIIIVE!" : You're setting up the game to go wild lynching everybody except RC & Kimor! Doesn't matter who, what order, scum or town, right or wrong, whatever! Just Follow The Rainbow Dash!

If it gets through the first three and the game isnt over, feel free to lynch me once I post final thoughts. Untill that point im going to fight, but im sure enough we can get a win just following my plan that if it gets late in it im fully willing to just die in order to stop paranoia or whatever.

Wifom wifom wifom
"Oh I'm sure we can get a win following my plan!"
Fuck man, why don't you let one of your magic confirmed-for-no-reason-town reads decide the magical fucking plan?!

Vote Whiskers

YEAH. BEST CASE EVER. I COULD TOTALLY SHEEP THAT. FUCK YES. WHO NEEDS REASONING? WHO NEEDS TO SCUMHUNT? WHO NEEDS TO HAVE SOME KIND OF MEANING ATTRIBUTED TO THEIR TOWNREADS?! NOT RAINBOW DASH! YEAAAAH! BEEEEST CAAAASE EVEEEEEER.

If you lynch me today, one of Whiskers/PM should finish it. If not them hit up UN who I would be stunned if doesnt end it.

If you'd be stunned if that doesn't end it, why are you saving him for... uh, FOURTH!??ELKHGLERloareksrgekjn

Really at that point go back, look really hard at Sweezy/Zab since they lurked a lot. Especially look for who just noted it and what any push reactions that way were.

YES. GO BACK AND LOOK AT SCUMMY PLAYERS THAT RBD CALLED TOWN.

First instinct is yabba over 2b1s but between the two I have no idea.

WHOA WHOA, WAIT. DIDN'T YOU

JUST SAY

YOU HAD A TOWNREAD ON YABBAGUY!?
WAIT WAIT WAIT, WHERE DID THIS STRING OF LYNCHES COME FROM!? HOW ARE YOU

SOOOOOO SURE

THAT SOME OF THESE WILL BE TAAAUUUUUNNNN!?!?

LOOK I M A BAD PLARY CAN I HAVE A CONFTOWN READ NOW?
DERP DERP DERPD DDERPD DORP DORP DORP DORP SLDKGJSLDGHKWHS

[Whiskers]

Also I explained my yabba-town read off the vig kill a couple of times apart from 755 I think.

Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait. LOL. YOU HAD ME FOOLED. YOU CRAFTY PONY YOU.

755 is

MYYYYY

Post. The one that you didn't respond to. Is that your response, up here? "I explained it"? I asked you specific questions, not only about your townread, but about, uh, fucking lies, such as you claiming that you were one of the main pushes on yabbaguy when you just. weren't.

Maybe you could address some of the scummy play instead of brushing off the whole thing.
Come on, Rainbow Dash, don't you just

looove

to rip into some townie attacking you?

[Whiskers]

I hammered Zabriel, I mean.

Actually, I'll buy this. There's been some stuff that's kind of "Eh, he gets town points, but you can't call him confirmed town," But I'll let this be the straw that breaks my back. Even if RC makes awkward cases, there's not really a reason for him to start a wagon on his only scumbuddy. I don't think. Except for the huge towncred, but I don't think that's the reason...
I am asking, RC, to clarify: if you started the push on Sweezy/Zabriel, why were you the

hammer

and not the first vote?

[Whiskers]

THANK YOU, WHISKERS.

Preview edit: Yeah, I wasn't convinced because your "reasons" were weak and amounted to "I find Whiskers scummy." You provided meta links. You said that Whiskers is less helpful when he is scum. Great. I might find that persuasive if I found that Whiskers was less than helpful.

To rephrase this (so RC can look at it from two ways): You said, "When Whiskers is scum, she does X." Kimor is saying, "Ok, but Whiskers isn't doing X this game."

[Whiskers]

Maybe. Still, I'd bet scumRC would be more likely not to pull his buddy from the middle of the crowd and throw him, specifically, under the bus. It's really dangerous.

[Whiskers]

I think RBD is a good choice of lynch but the way Whiskers defended her on Day1 is unsettling. Whiskers is a decent enough player and whatever he says, that defense was not town defending scum, so I'd much rather go with Whiskers, and if he flips town, go for RBD next.

GAAAH!
You keep saying this, it keeps not making any sense.
There is:
Scum defending scum.
Scum defending town.
Town defending ????.
^these are the three things defending can look like.

Town doesn't know who is scum. If a townie defends someone who is town, it looks the same as a townie defending someone who is scum. You can't say "That

totally

wasn't town defending scum!" Unless you also, at once, say, "That

totally

wasn't town defending town!" because no matter what the alignment of the defended player is, the DEFENDING player

LOOKS THE SAME

.

@RBD: yeah, I actually did miss what your scumslip was referring to. The idea was, lynch my scumreads-- First you, leaving RC open to being lynched, just pretty much going down the list. You may or may not be scum (at that point), but having you out of the way would just be absolutely divine.

Now: I've asked and reminded you several times to respond to post... what was it, 755? You haven't done so. This is willful, intentional ignorance.
You've said that yabba was a townread, and given cases (apparently) for why he is a town read, but never so much of that for Birds. Now you are more in favour of a yabbaguy lynch than a Birds lynch. Something doesn't match up.
Kimor, one of your great grand galloping townreads, has asked several times for a reason

to

lynch me. You haven't appeased him.
I have also pointed out that you didn't want to lynch lurkers until

after

the lurker-scum had been lynched.

Instead of ignoring the other players and saying what you're doing, not why, maybe you could pay some of us some attention.

[Whiskers]

@ Whiskers, the reason I don't buy RBD/scum and you/town is that for a townie to defend scum that voraciously, they must be pretty bad players. You are not.

Aaaah!! This is so wrong! NO. For a townie to defend scum, they must be

wrong

. If I defended Rainbow Dash and she is scum, then I was wrong, not bad.

I've said several times though, that the intent was never to protect Rainbow Dash, it was to fight you. I wasn't sure of her alignment then and I don't think she was in great danger of a lynch at that point. The point of arguing with you was telling you how bad your stuff was.

I find it SO much more likely that you as scum were defending a townie you personally claimed was "powerful" to get her on your side.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't work with Rainbowdash. That works with you-- and like I've said, if I was trying to get on your goodside, I'l just defend you and call you town.
And actually,c I don't know. I didn't THINK "Defend and townread" method works on Dash, but when I defended her earlier, she did call me town. When I attack her, she wants to lynch me over her scumreads.

Also, your whole post about RBD taking control of the town is BS. We didn't get the Yabba lynch RBD wanted. We didn't go with the 2birds lynch RBD wanted either and chose to lynch Zabriel (which was good). I don't know why you are portraying yourself as this player who is keeping RBD's power in check where as without you, she will run riot. I mean, me and Yabba had already voted her before I switched to you and you voted RBD. It is almost a certainty that if you die and the game continues, RBD will get lynched next. I'll make sure of that.

But I don't know that she's scum either, and when you lynch both of us you will be down both a Whiskers and A Rainbowdash.
But, there's a point at which I just have to shrug and let someone else handle it.

Still, it'd be cool if RBD could answer my questions, or if anyone (but you, RC, you've already said) would tell us why you're picking me today. Kimor's asked several times and you, RC, are the only one who has got a reason for it. Everyone else is kind of coasting.

[Whiskers]

And: look at the players who are scummy: the ones who post the most.
And yes, RC, I argue with you because you were wrong and I like arguing and I don't like they way you play. May not be a "town-motivation" in it, but I didn't do it to get you lynched either.

I wasn't arguing because I thought you were scum, I was arguing because I thought you were wrong.

[Whiskers]

I've been trying really hard to say I don't hate

you

. But: Your pushes are usually OMGUS. You convince yourself that your own reads are really amazing and when asked to support you come up with really stupid scumtells. I just feel like you're a bad player and don't learn.

I'm getting tired of the whole thing though. I'm taking on fewer games and will likely take another long break from the site soon.

[Whiskers]

I've been two pages behind for like, three pages.

@Kimor: Do you thiknk NU's post there (asking Klick's opinion repeatedly) was him attacking Klick? I don't see a good reason to make a post where you ask your scumbuddy their opinion on everything unless you're bussing and it's to make them look bad.
He's not a strong townread, but I wouldn't lynch NU today.
I'd be much more likely to lynch birds.
[preedit]
sigh.

[Whiskers]

Oh, the long post was Birds,

that

is a pleasant surprise.
Re:PM not getting replaced.
Mod was looking for a replacement, iirc, but then PM came in and posted one line. If he keeps doing this, he may last several game days doing nothing-- and then get replaced by someone who can mislynch another three or so times.

[Whiskers]

They used to be done, even more recently when RVS was the standard mode of transportation-- but something happened and I guess they just aren't.
I'll admit, they're a lot of work.

@yabbaguy: I would definitely take Kimor with me to lylo. If you just want a townread, I'm not 100% on anypony, but I'm pretty confident RC is town. (but I sure as hell wouldn't take RC to lylo. Can you imagine why?)

[Whiskers]

Yep, I'm pretty much willing to attribute the whole game to Johnny.

Also didn't notice D3 screw up, don't know what that's about.
still not 100% on yabbaguy not being scum... er, except that there aren't any left. But I never understood that. I guess the townread came from Rainbow Dash, who was scum, so it doesn't have to make sense.

[Whiskers]

The Dayvig must personally send me a PM, or he must tell me in the QT.

Sweet.

1) Klick is not the dayvig.
2) Shaded/Kimor is not the dayvig.
3) Jigglymence is not the dayvig.
4) 2b1s is not the dayvig.
5) Nameuser is not the dayvig.
6) Sweezy is not the dayvig.

7) I could be the dayvig. But I know I am not, narrowing down the choices to:

8) Whiskers could be the dayvig.
9) Rainbowdash could be the dayvig.
10) Yabba could be the dayvig.
11) Johnny could be the dayvig.

This is based purely on when they were last active.

[Whiskers]

RC, will you admit you screwed up?

Screwed up, where?

1) FOSsing RBD on Day1 and trying to get her lynched? No. I nailed her as scum in the first few posts she made.

Did you seriously call me scum for saying "RC is scum because" instead of "I think RC is scum because"? This really may be a new record for bunk tell. It beats Amished tell, it beats 'overdefensiveness'... I think it may actually be one of the worst ones ive ever seen. Across many many years.

This is about as bad as Malakittens' "I dreamed it."

2) Derailing the Yabba wagon and adamantly stating that I won't vote Yabba if it is the last thing I do? No. Town would have lost if he was lynched.

No, yabbaguy wagon was derailed when Eidolon was shot and the votes were reset. I distinctly remember you not having anything to do with it.

3) Making a case for lynching Sweezy? No. Again, I was right.

Yeah, he was your scumread[/quote] after all. After, what, Johnny, Whiskers, Kimor...

4) Arguing with Kimor and NameUser? Yes, I screwed up, I admit it.

This is also dumb. You can be town and arguie with other town players. In fact, it's a pretty pro town thing to do.

5) Saying that Whiskers is scum for defending RBD? Well, that is his screw up, not mine. Although, my perspective was wrong, I never expected town to so voraciously defend scum. That was just bullshit...

Lol, no, your CASE was bullshit. Besides, It's not "Town defending scum". I've already explained this to you. Town defending town looks exactly the same as town defending scum.

6) Believing Klick? Yes. He was very good as scum and the only one who escaped my FOS.

Good thing your strong townread shot him for you.

7) Refusing to lynch 2b1s? No.

The fact that 2b1s flat-out defends RBD who is trying to lynch him makes me certain that either RBD is town and he is trying to appease her or that RBD is scum and this is a planned bus. Now way is his a townie reaction.

VOTE: 2birds1stone

So, basically, you called everybody scum and either they were scum and you're so great at mafia, or they deserved it and they are so bad at mafia.

@ Kimor, LOL, what? I had RBD as my second biggest suspect after Whiskers and I tried to lynch her Day 1. Save your "I told you so" for Whiskers.[/quote]This may be true, but please be aware that, all throughout the game, nobody followed

you

. Dash's case for you was not

implausable,

even if it was wrong. Your case for her was.

[Whiskers]

It's like you assume all the players know what all the other players' alignments are while the game is going on.
You don't have to be bad to defend scum

if you don't know they are scum

. Also, you don't have to be a bad player to not OMGUS,

because you don't know if the player attacking you is scum

.
It's not like, Scum only ever attacks town, and town only ever attacks scum. Birds OMGUSsing RBD would have been a bad move. Yeah, he would have been voting for what turned out to be scum,

but he would have been OMGUSsing

.

[preedit]
That's cool. Call me when you grow get some power, then you can use it to stop us from lynching yabbaguy.

[Whiskers]

>good case

Sorry man, I just don't see it.

[Whiskers]

See my full case here 269, 272, 279. It was a detailed anal

269 is restated in 272.

The reasons for RD being scum in 279 is:
1. She called you scum for acting like two players were strongly linked but only attacking one of them
you didn't deny this happened, you said that "it could apply to anybody".
She didn't give her reasons for having linking players in the same post she linked them.
She said you were trying to discredit Eidolon.

Basically, what she is saying is that I clarified with Eidolon whether she was planning to lynch me based on a mere couple of posts from Scruffy

Now, how does RBd interpret it? She claims I am "discrediting" Eidolon and accusing her. No, if I wanted to accuse her, I would do it directly.

You posted something like, "You SERIOUSLY want to lynch me for THIS!?" Yeah, that could be mistaken for discrediting.
And thanks for the wifom, telling us what you "always do."

All of #1 is summed up as: RD had reasons proportionately weak to her scumread on RC. Bad reasons is scummy?
It might have warranted a second look if RD had been pushing a lynch for these weak reasons, but she wasn't, so it didn't.

2. You were on the wagon that was beinh quicklynched, but didm't want to be "part of the quicklynch wagon."
I don't know about the WHOLE town, but I can speak for myself when I say, If you, and only you want to think about your vote for longer, you shouldn't put your vote on the player yet.
If you didn't want yabbaguy quicklynched, when a quicklynch was mounting, you should have taken your vote off.

3. Rainbow Dash only attacked yabbaguy because Eidolon wanted to attack yabbaguy.
RD made a good defence against this point herself, imo.

[Whiskers]

It's something that you can't know. Not knowing yabbaguy's alignment, or Rainbow Dash's alignment ahead of time, you can't say "RD attacked yabbaguy to please Eidolon." Actually you can: it's something town or scum could do.
But you pick out something peculiar that might or might not be coincidence and say HEY THIS IS A SCUMTELL BECAUSE SCUM MIGHT DO IT.
Whatever. I'm having trouble putting it into words-- and I'd really like to, because then you could understand, or at least you could help me to understand why I'm wrong. There's something about that kind of play where you just grab stuff and say scum might do it, the player must be scum, that doesn't feel right.

That's the other thing I didn't like about you in, say, IceCreamConvention. You were wrong, clearly asinine-- but I couldn't directly argue with what you were saying, and it pissed me off.

[Whiskers]

[Whiskers]

REGARDLESS of whether he bought my case, it was better than a flashwagon.

This is your opinion,

Whiskers was absolute dead weight this game and if it wasn't for him, town would probably have won in half as many posts.

And I'm certain that players will disagree with you on this point-- the certainty comes from the fact that my choices influenced the game and that I was never on the table for policy lynch.

Point is Whiskers, you don't know when to say "You were right, I was wrong." You are determined to continue arguing even after you were proven wrong and RBD's flip is there to see in big red letters. You seem like a vain, deluded person who cannot admit their mistakes.

Just like when I was "defending" her, my point isn't that Rainbow Dash isn't scum, my point is that Rainbow Dash isn't scum for the reasons in your case.

[Whiskers]

REGARDLESS of whether he bought my case, it was better than a flashwagon.

This is your opinion,

Whiskers was absolute dead weight this game and if it wasn't for him, town would probably have won in half as many posts.

And I'm certain that players will disagree with you on this point-- the certainty comes from the fact that my choices influenced the game and that I was never on the table for policy lynch.

Point is Whiskers, you don't know when to say "You were right, I was wrong." You are determined to continue arguing even after you were proven wrong and RBD's flip is there to see in big red letters. You seem like a vain, deluded person who cannot admit their mistakes.

Just like when I was "defending" her, my point isn't that Rainbow Dash isn't scum, my point is that Rainbow Dash isn't scum for the reasons in your case.

[Whiskers]

D2, there was no way I was going to let 2b1s get lynched.

You still don't get it. It isn't up to you. Your opinion holds no weight.

Look, go on and have the last word. I'm done. I won't be playing with you until you grow up-- and hopefully play a newbie game or two

[Whiskers]

You DID get lynched Day3. Rainbowdash, would you like me to LINK the post where you got lynched? You seem to be pretending that you led the scum team to a win and that

I called you scum but no one listened

(This part is true)

and you were able to crush the town despite me calling you scum. NO.

Let me infuse you with a dose of reality.

(lololololololol)

You got lynched. Town lynched you and I was one of the players who was indirectly pushing your lynch by putting you in my top two scumreads. Whiskers stupidity was shocking but even if I had been adamant about lynching him and waited till Monday for NameUser to hammer him, what would have happenned? I would have led a lynch on you like it was no one's business. I would have raced Yabba to putting the first vote on you. There was ZERO chance of you winning even I had lynched Whiskers.

It's okay, RC. Rainbow was lynched, but it wasn't your fault. There, there. No need to worry, don't blame yourself.

If JF hadn't killed Klick, yes Klick might have convinced me to lay off of you. You discount that possibility that at some point in time, JF and Kimor would have pushed a Klick lynch. Once Klick was dead, you were open to be lynched.

No one followed your analysis and no one thought you "moved wagons."

All you were doing was blowing hot air. You have an incredibly high opinion of yourself but you are a huge fluffy pile of nothingness as far as skill is concerned. You are in such shock over this blowout defeat that you can't even admit when you got caught.

Uh, speak for yourself. keep in mind, several players came in and disagreed with you, you really have no place to tell anyone else they have no skill, or are conceited.

I showed no interest in lynching you Day2 because I thought Sweezy-scum and Whiskers were sucking up to you. It turns out, I misread the strategy and only realized later that it is in scum's best interest to buddy with each other more than townies. Once I realized that, I was onto you and Sweezy again. We lynched Sweezy, then we lynched you.

Actually, I think it was Kimor (maybe Birds?) who put the catalyst vote on Sweezy-slot, I supported it, and then the wagon came and lynched him. None of us looked at you or your reads for who to lynch.
Hey, hey, how many players do you need to tell you you need an adjustment before you'll get the hint?

[Whiskers]

Well... pausegame is more okay when you have nights.

[Whiskers]

Page 17:

I went back and read the Sweezy post to delve deeper into why I had that gut feeling.

will take an eternity to get caught up.

Pretty much.

Excuse for not posting. inb4, whiskers yells "not a scumtell."

I'm posting from work again,

Apologetic.

so I won't have anything detailed right off the bat here. Caught up on reading the thread, but I haven't totally digested it yet. Though I will say for now that the interaction between RC's #344 and Eidolon's #345 sheds some light on RC's alignment now that Eido has flipped. I'm getting a vibe of someone who threw a tantrum over his case being refuted by three people, and then finally feeling regret when the one person he respects the most out of all of us took his enemies' side.

It feels fairly sincere to me, and allows me to read his prior arguments as (very,

very

) derptown rather than scummy.

Kinda get the feeling he is posting what I wanted to hear since I earlier reacted negatively to being accused of being scum. But that was before I had the time to take a breather. Caught ya, scum.

I'd like to think Whiskers is town, if only because he (she?) allowed

some

semblance of logic to shine through in the last few pages.

Basically a compliment.

RBD...she did a fine job defending herself,

Another compliment. No backing.

This significantly reduces my scumread on whiskers.

Vote Sweezy

Let's do this.

Pedit: surprise!

Page 28.

The following chart is my attempt to deduce scumpairs. Any cell in green means I've determined it impossible or unlikely for that to be the solution to the game.

Why can't I be scumbuddies with Kimor?

VOTE: Zabriel Look at his two posts, I'm tired of lurkers, willing to vote PM as well.

Best I got. I'll keep looking for evidence against Whiskers and RC.

Page 29

vote: zabriel

Pony needs to saddle up.
Afraid to get your tail wet?

Page 30

Unvote

Vote: zabriel

Seeing as PMysterious wagon isn't happening
better luck with this wagon, perhaps?

Fiiiiiiiiiiiine.

Unvote, Vote: zabriel

Okay, lets go with Zabriel.

VOTE: Zabriel

Yeah, over ten pages between your case and the wagon on Zabriel-- with no reference to your case whatsoever. You didn't lead this lynch or anything, lol. You did NOT cause the Zab lynch.

[Whiskers]

I am not voting 21bs. I'd rather wait to hear from the inactives to hear their thoughts. Specifically Name User who I think is town. Zabriel replaced Sweezy, so I might settle for that wagon if NU/other inactives don't support a whiskers wagon.

The fact that 2b1s flat-out defends RBD who is trying to lynch him makes me certain that either RBD is town and he is trying to appease her or that RBD is scum and this is a planned bus. Now way is his a townie reaction.

VOTE: 2birds1stone

Yeah, man.

Birds never being lynched was 100% you, too.

[Whiskers]

I think RC might just be a troll.
He's baited us into explaining over and over and it's just, unbelievable. I think he's doing it on purpose.

[Whiskers]

I have explained to you many, many times. Whatever you may think, RBD's alignment in red is there for all to see. It is not an arguable opinion but a fact. You were wrong. I was right. Deal with it.

I'm not saying you weren't right. I'm saying you were right for the wrong reasons.

Also, your posts were borderline hilarious.

Keep pretending to laugh, RC.

You, whiskers have most certainly have come close to being a troll. If it wasn't for you, we would have won a lot quicker since I wouldn't have had to deal with your stupid defense of scum as well as the distraction you provided on the last day by your scummy behavior making me start a wagon on you. If you didn't exist in the game, I would have stuck with my initial bandwagoning on Yabba's RBD wagon and RBD would have been quick lynched. You STOPPED a mafioso's lynch by being this big giant distraction.

Town doesn't

know

player alignments, RC. Anyway, you omgus and tunnel. Remember who was almost policy lynched this game. It wasn't me.

[Whiskers]

@ Kimor, why do you continue arguing after the game is over? Is it a psychological problem that you have?

Lol hypocrite.

Retroactive Policy Lynch Vote: RapidCanyon

[Whiskers]

@ Kimor, why do you continue arguing after the game is over? Is it a psychological problem that you have?

Lol hypocrite.

Retroactive Policy Lynch Vote: RapidCanyon

I don't care if I am wrong, I will continue arguing as if I was right. I cannot accept that someone else could be a better player than me or could catch scum that I was unable to catch so, I will make stupid comments in the endgame.

Lol hypocrite.

[Whiskers]

Birds, Johnny, put your votes on RC.
Maybe we can get RD and PM and all the other letters to post-game vote him, too.

[Whiskers]

Just help us push this lynch through. WE ALL HAVE TO COMPROMISE, RAINBOW DASH!!!!!!

[Whiskers]

Okay-- this is me just innocently asking: why was yabba

maybe

MVP? I figured it was between Johnny and Klick, then some space, then Kimor in third.

[Whiskers]

Assuming it really is an innocent question, Yabba led town on a game-winning lynch.

I thought you led all the scum lynches??