Open 449: Switch Mafia (Game Over)

[Tajun]

VOTE: Daumis123

Not buying the sadness.

[Tajun]

Okay, analysis so far:

Ooh damn. I'm not sure if Daumis' lame posts are scummish or really just noob. Either way, some pressure is never bad

Vote: Daumis123

I like this post, pretty much what I was thinking at this point. Lite town points to malpascp.

So it would be clear when my role will be shown and you shall understand what have you done(tun tun tun taaaaan).

Prototypical newb scum here, I like where my vote is.

Similar to above, perhaps lite town points to Malakittens for his responses, although something in them strikes me as a bit odd.

@Post 28: I like Potatouhou's analysis, even though I disagree with it. Strongest town read so far.

Wait, you are voting Potathou as a RVS or are you being serious in your vote? Because Andrew already asked and Potatou already answered. Why would you want him to explain again?

Hmm... Malakittens gets defended by Potatouhou, and comes around to defend him in return, from a weak attack. Reads like scum buddying a strong town player to me.

Maybe if Mala wants to vote we can kill him. Early lynches are fun as hell.

Like greygnarl as likely town, this is awfully bold if he's scum.

Wait but the thing where everybody is "pressing the switch" that's just fluff right?

Totally forgot the SK.

pedit

Mala yes they are
You're right though.
UNVOTE:
If we lynch Daumis and he's town we could end up down four townies the next day.

True, but this is possible whoever we lynch and whenever we do it. Why did you write this?

Well let's face it with this many votes on me it would be hard to survive and yes there is possibility that if I will say who I trust he could die on night just to kill person who has more trust on other townies.

Changed my mind a bit, this could just be newb play. Daumis, have you played on other forums, and could you link us to one of your games if so?

Erm, I'm pretty sure om wasn't saying you were sheeping. He was saying you were over-justifying your vote. If anything, that's the opposite of sheeping, given that everyone else didn't really give too many reasons to justify theirs.

Anyway, the point about daum's "reaction test" is that he was vague in saying the results of it, which implies to me that he made up the whole thing being a reaction test on the spot, as an attempt to relieve the pressure on him.

PEdit: Yeah. Watermelonhou is pretty much right.

This seems reasonable. Possible he is just newb flailing though. Definitely need his links.

The point of this reaction test was:
-Find people who would easily join bandwagoon
-Find people who would use logic to find out truth
-find people who would use my scum like action as distraction from themselves

Are you claiming that you knew this action was scumlike when you took it?

Long story short: Daumis is scummy, and I need his answers. Malakittens is also scummy, don't like the strong buddying play. I like malpascp, Siveure DtTrikyp, and Potatouhou as town reads right now. Most others are neutralish, will review further later. Daumis, if you are town, stop lying because you'll end up lynched for it if you don't, I guarantee it.

[Tajun]

Original it is. Could I have a link to an outside game that you played nonetheless? Also, I am very curious if you knew whether your first post would be considered scummy or not.

PEdit: We shall see. The jury is still out on her.

[Tajun]

Uh, interesting. Yeah my site is still the best.

Om you are scaring me. Last few times you have been town you have called me scum when I was town, so this is making me wonder if you are actually scum this game. Just sayin'.

Hmm... I call Mala on buddying and she breaks out this, then goes right back to buddying her next post. HMMM...

I'm suspiscous because you're so town. If you're not NK'd I feel like we have to lynch you.

This post rubs me wrong. Not so much because it's wrong (it is, clearly), but rather because he seems to be buddying and setting up a lynch on the same player. Truly odd.

This is just my oppinion and should not be taken as actual accusions.
-Find people who would easily join bandwagoon CarbonFiber greygnarl
-Find people who would use logic to find out truth Potatouhou malpascp
-find people who would use my scum like action as distraction from themselves Tajun, KrazyEyeKilla7
That would be all from my side of view.

so where am i on the list?

@andrew94: You seem very self-conscious. There are 6 people not on that list, and yet you only seem to notice your own absence. Not looking good for you.

seriously seriously seriously seriously seriously seriously?

I was gonna quote all the Daumis hate, but it was too long.
There is AT LEAST 1 scum on Daumis, no way in hell did everyone pile on him that quick and there to be no mafia in there. Jumping on him for saying he was sad about doc death is a pathetic excuse for a vote <_<.

I have summed up the entier thread in one post.

You're half right. The wagon almost certainly has scum and quite possibly the SK on it. Doesn't make it a bad wagon.

Helps apply pressure. Honestly if it came to the last vote and I wasn't convinced. I would pull the vote. Gimme a sec to read up, just dropped the fiance off at work.

Don't like the reaction here much, the explanation is obvious and unnecessary. Also, your first post irked me a bit, people were calling Daumis a scumread somewhat, and he had 3 votes. Read as opportunistic and the explanation sucked. This is a perfectly cromulent wagon.

VOTE: KrazyEyeKilla7

In other news, I'll give Daumis a "original" pass for now and keep an eye on him, and Hyperion's anger reads as town, even if misplaced.

PEdit: Lol, Potatouhou and I continue to disagree. Please explain your reasoning here.

[Tajun]

Fair points. Not saying he is useful certainly, but he reads as angry town to me. Am curious how he'll respond though.

[Tajun]

I admit I am intrigued. Not your Om read that is bothering me though, that I agree with. I am more concerned that you seem to be attacking the people who go after him, labelling yourself as an ally in his eyes. Still, you're not at the top of my list.

[Tajun]

Sorry, missed the new page being up. That ^ was directed at Mala.

Ok, I like GG's explanation. He moves back into town territory.

[Tajun]

He is being really oppurtunistic here, all he is doing is attacking someone who has already been bandwagoned.

SHEEP ME NOW

Hyperion's manic unhelpfulness continues, but I am still getting town vibes. Would be useful if he would assist us.

Daumis is a wild card to me.
Krazy over-reacted to Daumis' read.
Potato must be town, and so does Mala.
I didn't like greygnarl and havingfitz discussing how the switches work and all the doubts they had. Just doesn't seem legit.
andrew was way too worried about not being on Daumis' list, so worried that he didn't even noticed that many other people weren't there.
All the rest I can't have a clear read right now.
Let's remember that there is 4 scum, and 3 possible kills tonight night. Let's not screw up. I don't think Daumis or anyone with such an erratic gameplay should be lynched.

unvote

Trying way,

way

too hard to fit in and avoid trouble. Very scummy.

VOTE: malpascp

Erm, I suggest cop investigating daumis is going to be a waste, as he isn't doing anything.

Investigate a good player, who will probably survive until your claim.

Daumis, you've done very little this game. Try to find scum. Being genuine in finding scum will prove your towniness.

Investigate Pota. He is definitely not a lynch target.

Nah. Go with someone medium, not scummy but not super town either, ideally someone who gives you a bad feeling in your gut you can't explain.

I'm fine with a lynch on Malpa or Hyperion today, would be willing to compromise on Daumis and possibly greygnarl.

It's way too early to be whittling our lynch pool to 4. Still don't see GG or Hyperion, but Malpa is up to #1. You seem too eager here.

[Tajun]

The anger, which I mentioned earlier, and also the SHEEP ME NOW bit, he seems like town who thinks his case is way better than it is. Scum usually try to be careful, he is being anything but. I'll meta him when I get the chance, probably Wednesday, but until then he's in my town pool.

[Tajun]

You're all forgetting an important point, that is that we have an SK as well as a mafia. Pota is likely dead regardless of alignment. Don't waste an investigation there.

[Tajun]

Ok, recent impressions:

havingfitz seems reasonably town, I can see where he is coming from.

Still don't see the town read people have on Malakittens.

Krazy's scummy and wasting our time. Bad combination.

Most recent posts have been useless. Let's see some wagons roll! I recommend Malpascp and/or Krazy. In particular, Malpascp (and sort of Krazy) aren't voting, and Malakittens, andrew94 and CarbonFiber all still have RVS votes up. Justify your votes or switch to someone worthy of one, please. Malakittens is another worthy wagon at this point.

Daumis's vote is on an inactive and therefore not helpful. This also increases my suspicion on Daumis, since he didn't seem to notice this.

CarbonFiber probably flaked, but to make sure

Mod, could we get a prod on CarbonFiber?

All I have for now.

[Tajun]

Alright, did a little research on Hyperion:

Micro 6 as scum he was pretty blazay, certainly didn't come out swinging. Acted more defensive.
Micro 8 as town seemed a bit more familiar.
A bit of analysis like in Open 438 would be welcome here.

Verdict? Slight increase in town read.

Read a couple of Malakittens town games. Couldn't find any scum ones, but town ones seem familiar. Give her a point or two, but still suspicious.
Krazy seems about the same as town and scum, at first glance anyway.

My concern about Malp is that he seems to be sheeping others' reads to try to fit in, and I don't feel like doing an in depth enough meta to see if that is town or scum behaviour from him. Maybe over the weekend if I get bored.

Otherwise, recent posts have been boring. Malakittens, any definite suspicions yet?

[Tajun]

Going to reread and find a new target to annoy?

Uh, just the way you word things.

Malakittens has yet to make a point I agree with. Or a point I disagree with. Or done anything, including post a single read or non-rvs vote. I can't believe she is not being pressured.

VOTE: Malakittens

Seriously, a read, anything. Check her ISO, this isn't town behaviour, she is playing to fit in and seem active.

[Tajun]

Fair enough. I didn't realize that you suspected Om as scum, from your earlier post that is not clear. As to your point, a few of the people who haven't given out reads aren't all that active (andrew, Carbon). Krazy and Daumis are the big exceptions to this, and both are medium to high on my suspicion list. Mostly I was worried because people were reading you as town, which I have some trouble seeing.

Good point on the Grey vs Malp, definitely see what you mean.

VOTE: Malpascp

Pedit: Agreed, not a lot is going on. It is fun to stir things up though.

[Tajun]

@Tajun

, you looked at Mala's, Krazy, and Hyperion's meta (which is mainly inconclusive), but didn't look up the meta of the person you're voting for. Explain.

My concern about Malp is that he seems to be sheeping others' reads to try to fit in, and I don't feel like doing an in depth enough meta to see if that is town or scum behaviour from him. Maybe over the weekend if I get bored.

Another thing: You gave Mala townie points for having familiar meta to her other town games, you then proceed to vote her later for essentially not having ton behavior. It doesn't exactly line up, and your sudden move off of her back to a leading wagon is off. For someone who will go through meta, you wouldn't go through someone's ISO before accusing them?

What did you get from reading the off-site meta of Daumus?

----

Hyperion may be scum. He usually attacks people weirdly. In this thread he is defending weirdly. His sheeping comment throws me off and his lack of follow up ISOs is scummy. He always seems to flake on my games, so... where are you Hyperion?

Could possibly be scum with Daumus if he flips scum.

@Mala

, give me two other people you think are scum and two you think are town.

@Siveure

:

Guys, let's stop worrying about the switches, as what they do and how they work only helps the scums.

This doesn't make sense.

Scum had three days to ask questions about this, so did the SK. Scum and possibly the PRs already know what's up. It's only town that can benefit from openly talking about the switches.

As I pointed out, Malp is scummy for sheeping reads and acting like they're his own, trying to fit in while not doing much. For me to see whether that is scum behaviour from him in particular, I'll need to read through full games and put his posts in proper context, as opposed to other people for whom I can read their ISOs in those games. This will take a while, and I am busy IRL. I did also read through a few of his ISOs briefly, but not much was gained from that.

Don't know what you mean about Mala's ISO, I did ISO her which was why I voted there. Thought most of her posts were fluff and she still had her RVS vote up. I didn't mind her explanation that in fact she was suspicious of Om (which I didn't get from my first read, but in retrospect is there). Also, I liked her analysis of the GG Malp fight, I think if we get a scum flip on one of them the other should fall under pretty heavy scrutiny. She is still leaning scum, in part because I had to kick her fairly hard to get a response.

Daumis is still leaning scum a bit. A lot of his behaviour can be explained by being new here, but he is still giving me a bad feeling. The off site meta was not worth much, it simply confirmed that he was a newbie and not a conman trying to play that card.

So Jal thinks we're the SK and is actively trying to get rid of us?
The only real alignment I could see at this point in time that wants to get rid of the SK over the other alignment would be scum since the SK can mess up their night actions.
You scum Jal?
VOTE: Jal
Also yes we are obvtown as fuck didn't you see me going on about my towniness with my interactions with Mala?

Town read on Om is fading fast, this comment felt really off, but I don't buy that he is the SK. I take the SK post as a joke.

[Tajun]

^ fluff


@om, are you admitting to being Sk? Why shouldn’t we lynch a sk if we can? He is anti town too and has a kill.

That doesn't make it less scummy of you.
So you still think Daumis is scummy?

Yes\


@malakittens I don’t think that meta is reliable

I agree with Om on this one, killing the SK would be the worst possible outcome of day 1, other than maybe lynching a PR. It would give the maf complete control over our PRs and disable a killing role as likely to target scum as town. You should definitely think things like that through first.

Daumis, RQS is random question stage, which Blue or red certainly falls into.

2. Why not?
3. There is no such thing as useless questions, there is only people who doesn;t understant them.

Daumis is reminding me more and more of belligerent scum.

[Tajun]

@Daumis:

So reread and still think my number one scum can be Jal
Vote: Jal

Jal please answer these qustions:
-Why Carbon was mafia and you are not?
-Do you trust me, or you trust others?
- Blue or red, which color you choose?

Please answer these questions with atleast five words.

I'll play along.

1) Carbon and I are the same alignment: town.
2) I don't really trust anyone.
3) I choose the color blue.

My turn.

Who are your other suspects? Is there anyone

you

trust, and why? Thoughts on Krazy, also.

For serious, are you actually scum or is your last post some SK hintage as you'd neither be scum or town? You're doing something weird, but I don't know quite your motivation for it.

@Tajun

:

As I pointed out, Malp is scummy for sheeping reads and acting like they're his own, trying to fit in while not doing much. For me to see whether that is scum behaviour from him in particular, I'll need to read through full games and put his posts in proper context, as opposed to other people for whom I can read their ISOs in those games. This will take a while, and I am busy IRL. I did also read through a few of his ISOs briefly, but not much was gained from that.

This doesn't explain why you went through Mala, Hyperion's, and that other person's past games but not the games of the person you voted for.

I agree with Om on this one, killing the SK would be the worst possible outcome of day 1, other than maybe lynching a PR. It would give the maf complete control over our PRs and disable a killing role as likely to target scum as town. You should definitely think things like that through first.

Om didn't say anything about the effects of killing the SK.

@GnarlsBarkley, stop semi-white knighting me.

Ok, I'll spell it out for you. For Hyperion, Malakittens and "that other person" (Krazy)'s posts, all I was trying to get was a feel for what their posting style was, to see if this stood out and what I could gleam from that. The reason that I didn't do this for Malp is because a quick look would not be sufficient to determine whether my suspicions were ungrounded. In order to determine that, I would have to take a thorough look through at least two of his games, looking at all posts and not just his in isolation, in order to determine if sheeping was his town play. This would take ~4hours. I don't have the time or effort for that. Is that clear now?

Om said "The only real alignment I could see at this point in time that wants to get rid of the SK over the other alignment would be scum since the SK can mess up their night actions."
So yeah, he did. The effects would be that he is no longer there to mess up the night actions. Try looking below the surface.

[Tajun]

I will only say that those questions, exactly those questions, are there for a reason( you can't know it yet, but one of these days)
And yes at this point mafia might see who others see, but with a bit of information everything can schange and at this point I like where it is going.
As for my character, imagine me as not one, but as a loot of people in one, it should hep you understand me more easily.

This is BS. There is no point in asking "red or blue", beyond the obvious wasting time and pretending to be looking for scum. I warned you that lying would make you look scummy, and it certainly has.

[Tajun]

vote daumis

vote back on him..
also, why would we not want to lynch the sk on day 1.
so you;re saying that if someone is L1 and claims sk, we all hop off? lmao

Yeah, I am actually. Let's say we lynch the SK night one. Then someone dies, we get no PR results (because the scum block both) and the game is 7 townies vs. 3 scum. Those are VANILLA townies effectively, since the scum can block their actions at will. You like those odds? Those are a scum worse than you get on the newbie forum, minus PRs. Miss the next night and we are in MYLO.

Worst possible outcome

. Now that I've thought about it better, I would actually rather lynch a PR. At least we would have some interference against the scum running away with the game then.

@Jal: My agreement was with Om that we shouldn't be hunting the SK. My assumption was that he thought we shouldn't hunt the SK because he thought it would be a bad idea. Ie. lynching the SK right now would be unwise. Excuse me for my apparently odd interpretation of his bloody obvious statement.

This is the most fluffliest thing I've read in this thread, especially regarding the meta search. You think MalP and Mala are both scum. You vote MalP and push it, while metaing Mala and then pushing it awkwardly later. Why not get "just a feel" for MalP's posts either? Doesn't require 4 hours. This doesn't line up.

What the hell are you talking about here? This isn't fluff, I was answering your questions. If you think I am full of shit and my post is me trying to cover it, then say so. What the hell makes it fluffy?

inb4 scumpullingadaumisdiediedie

Curious what you mean here. You are voting Daumis.

[Tajun]

@tajun we got one pr killed already, why would we lynch another..

Andrew makes my list of people who aren't paying attention. Here is who I would like to lynch today:
least <--- SK, PR, VT, Maf ---> most.
Does that clear it up?

Why don't we lurkerlynch?

Because then we go into day 2 with no info?

I'm in for a Daumis lynch. He looks like newbie scum, and is hiding behind his beginner status to try to survive.

-Sketchy beginning.
-Pretended to give up hope.
-Post 24, softclaimed to relieve pressure.
-Post 56 pretended to have plan, involved him looking scummy. Refused to answer my question as to whether he knew his actions would look scummy.
-Post 61 OMGUS.
-Bunch of fluff, ludicrous questions to look helpful.

This is classic scum behaviour.

VOTE: Daumis123

[Tajun]

Anyway, are you going to directly respond to what I said or whine that I didn't call it shit?

I did respond. You said it was fluff, I said it wasn't. Any further questions?

FTR, if Daumis flips scum Jal is my best guess as a partner. When Daumis decided he would likely be lynched, he attacked that slot, and hasn't let up on the attacks in spite of tremendously flimsy reasoning. Jal's vote here, with the arguments implying she would be willing to switch to other targets and mixed views on Daumis, reeks of bussing. Not to mention the massive coaching she has been trying to provide him.

Also, if Daumis flips scum I was wrong about Malp. No way Post 352 would come out of a partner's mouth.

Daumis et all, it's been said before but I think it needs to be emphasized,

IF YOU ARE TOWN

DO NOT

SELF HAMMER.

If you are scum fly at it. Also, no one quickhammer, although hopefully no one is that dumb.

[Tajun]

Erm, prodded. So I feel I should post. And I dun't have a clue what to do in this post.

Anyway, I think daumis is newb, and that's what he's getting voted for. FoS GG and Tajun for restarting the wagon.

VOTE: Malpascp

I think not responding to Jemina is what we should do until voided gets around to confirming her.

Fair enough. Why no FOS on Jal, for the L-2 then? Also, if you are suspicious of me, why take your vote off?

Explain your Malp reasoning too.

[Tajun]

Why, yes, Potato, deary, I can.
Post 33 is hypocritical, doing the exact thing he accuses you of doing. He's attacking easy targets and sheeping others heavily. What little original content he has is highly unimaginative, being things anyone could say. (Active lurking.)
All-in-all, he leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

I don't disagree here, and I have other reasons to suspect him (see my ISO). But I think you are wrong about Daumis, and that is where my vote will stay.

Clearly we need a formal case, so I shall provide.

Well that's sad, doctor would have been great help.

Vote: Siveure DtTrikyp

There's a reason that this is on the list of tells. It works, or at least it used to before everyone on the forum read it. It still works on those who haven't, ie Daumis.

No need to buy it, this day will end with my lynched, but I hope it will give information for townies.

By his second post he was appealing to emotion.

So give some answers, i am the type of player that looks scum like no matter what( still don't know why it turns out like). And if I was a mafia, people, do you really I would be so dramatic? It puts to much attention to my so it wouldn't very smart.

On the link he provided he was the last one lynched. The way he is talking you'd think he never made it past day 1.

So it would be clear when my role will be shown and you shall understand what have you done(tun tun tun taaaaan).

Right.... This is important later.

Okay fine enough with dump play. The reason I was playing like was to find out who would instantly vote against me without reason and who would try to give reason, in this way I can create a picture of who could be a good guys and possible bad guys. And if you don't believe after my death please look into people who lynched me without particular reason and I put my trust in one of players, but don't want to give him away since he could die on the night.

I don't buy it. He expects us to believe that he knew it was scummy behaviour and a reaction test? This is really reaching.

But I still am waiting for my answer from CarbonFiber, after his answer I can try to deduct something against him and can move on.

Waiting on CarbonFiber, who hadn't posted since the first day, is his reason for not contributing? Right.....

Wait I never said I was PR or SK or mafia, the only thing I said that I was townie. As for identity disorder I think thats too harch, at most I am just person who can't stay to be the same for a longer time.

Note above, he highly implied something different. Misleading the town is not townie behaviour.

In summary, I see a lot of scum motivation in his posts, and no town motivation whatsoever. The fact that he is new here is not, in itself, reason not to lynch him. Please explain where you see different, Aunt Jemima.

[Tajun]

Four days till deadline, we need a lynch. Not a lot of overlap between Jal and my opinions, but Daumis and Malp are certainly top choices. I could also happily do Aunt Jemima, her posts have been uninspiring to say the least, and Krazy was near the top of my pool pre-switch. Sadly, her pick (Andrew) is my other choice. Siv would be acceptable at deadline, for his bizarre voting patterns and seeming lack of attention to what is happening, but I don't get a huge scum read off him.

Potatouhou: What do you think of Aunt Jemima?

[Tajun]

@andrew94: I am trying to get Potatohou back into the game, he seems to have disappeared. Also, his view on Krazy was especially back and forth, and I want to know where he is on that right now, considering AJ's appearance and behaviour.

[Tajun]

I am up for that

VOTE: Aunt Jemina

This one post is newbscum as far as I see. Anyone else?

Yes.

Even though greygnarl still deserves to die.

No.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=23054

Here's andrew derping.
Can we policy lynch Aunt Jemina please?
VOTE: Aunt Jemina

It's always been. If other people want to lynch her as scum then they're welcome to it. I have had enough of this game. Auntie is pissing me off and needs to die.

I cannot see where you guys are getting town on GG from. This screams annoyed town.

Still think Daumis is a better lynch, but if we want to leave him for later, fine. Aunt Jemima has passed her expiry date.

VOTE: Aunt Jemima

That's L-1 on Aunt Jemima.

Could someone announce intent to hammer so we can get a claim here? Two days to go.

[Tajun]

^can't see where you are getting scum on GG, not town.

[Tajun]

So much for my fakehammer party...

I am voting Aunt Jemima though.

[Tajun]

I cannot see where you guys are getting town on GG from. This screams annoyed town.

Tajun, deary, did you mean "scum on GG" or "annoyed scum"?

Meant "scum on GG", ie I think GG is town. The next post was supposed to clear it up, but it was a bit of a miss as well. Whatev.

Tajun, deary, you said you'd be willing to lynch Sivvy. This old lady here is giving you that offer; would you be so kind as to take it?
Jal, deary, you also support the Siv lynch, but could you put your money where your mouth is?

mal, deary, the last thing you said about Sivvy that I could see was this:

Siveure's ISO is kinda like this: "Don't ask me shit, I'm just sheeping LOL" and the rest of the posts are the sheeping part.

Could you please put these words into the form of a read for this old lady?

Kitty, deary, you have Siv as a null read; would you be willing to wagon him?

Hyperion, deary, I can't seem to find a read on Sivvy (or half the playerlist for that matter) from you; could you give one?

fitz, deary, your reread painted Sivvy in a negative light; does this mean you'd be willing to vote him?

gnarly, deary, do you have a lynch in mind other than me, yourself, or dammy?

Daummy, deary, you voted Sivvy initially--why did you do so and has that suspicion remained? Sivvy's virtually nonexistent in your posting.

Andy, deary, you said you'd prefer sivvy explanation (which I can write if necessary), but what's your own read on Sivvy, and why?


Potato, deary,

I agree with you on Jemima in that she really is uninspiring. I don't feel any drive in her posts and they sound like filler to me. I would consider lynching her.

I really don't get the wagon on Aunt Jemina though.

What changed? You went from considering a wagon on me to not understanding the wagon on me.
Also, kindly explain to this old lady why I can't find a mention of a read on Siv in your iso, please.

I could live with a Siv lynch, but he's not far on the scum side of null for me. Much prefer Daum or your sweet self. Also, did you ever get around to meta-ing Andrew? If so, what was the verdict? If not, why did you pull off of him? That was a lynch I could get behind.

[Tajun]

1 day left. Could we get intent to hammer and a claim?

That is actually L-1 this time.

[Tajun]

UNVOTE:

[Tajun]

Jal is now leaning town, based on her SK/Vig comment (552). We`re not lynching a claimed PR without a CC day 1 in this setup. Get a grip on reality.

[Tajun]

BS claim sounds BS

then Aunt, can you actually say why you are defending daumnis soo hard. all you said was that he was sweet..

This was the scummiest reaction to the claim, Malp`s reads like he actually believed what he was saying. Add that to the pile of stuff on Andrew already, and I have a new favorite.

VOTE: Andrew

16 hrs guys, let`s make this lynch happen.

[Tajun]

EBWOP: 19hrs. Guess I can`t read.

[Tajun]

I say we go back to Daumis then. I could live with Malp as well, but I am not supporting a GG lynch, even at deadline.
VOTE: Daumis

[Tajun]

Siv is now also acceptable, if people prefer.

[Tajun]

Nope, still town on GG.

[Tajun]

I don't think she is the vig though.

Something that just crossed my mind. malp's posts have suddenly gotten way more intense. Seems odd that a vig claim would make him get this into it.

VOTE: malp

this doesnt make sense..
tagun is opportunistic. what other stuff is there on me lmao?


@aunt why would the mod not tell you actions of who you replaced. its fishy.

You want a lynch or not?
If your answer is yes, please vote GG.
If your answer is no, continue to vote a wagon that won't reach majority by deadline.

[Tajun]

Sorry, hit submit instead of reply, here is what I wanted to say

You want a lynch or not?
If your answer is yes, please vote GG.
If your answer is no, continue to vote a wagon that won't reach majority by deadline.

Lynch on town player < No Lynch , and I think GG is town.

I don't think she is the vig though.

Something that just crossed my mind. malp's posts have suddenly gotten way more intense. Seems odd that a vig claim would make him get this into it.

VOTE: malp

this doesnt make sense..
tagun is opportunistic. what other stuff is there on me lmao?


@aunt why would the mod not tell you actions of who you replaced. its fishy.

Seriously? Try ISOing me. Then hit ctrl-f and type andrew. Voila!

malp has been and remains a top pick for me.
VOTE: Malpascp

[Tajun]

Okay, the scum just threw away an almost certain victory. People not dumb enough to do that include:

Somebody on the mafia side does not understand how the switches work, or was away for the duration of the night. Or else absolutely MAJOR wifommage is going on, but I really doubt that.

VOTE: Greygnarl

Siv
Me
Frankly, that is all. Mala and Jal are on the maybe piles, the rest of you have all but proved you are not paying any bloody attention.

But, we do get andrew's town alignment for free as well, since they would not have left the vig on if he was scum. Two free townies is a pretty good deal.

But jal, even so, if you accept the vig wants to make players odd it's a good thing for vig to kill somebody from town perspective last night, even if that person is town.

PEdit: If you're going to direct the cop, why, just WHY, would you direct the cop towards your scumbuddy?

Good point, GG gets some more free town points.

I'm in-between the switches. I do legitimately think scum screwed up rather than let siv not possibly die, for the record. I wonder if they realized the SK was dead.

This seems forced to me.

VOTE: Tajun

Any chance of an explanation oncoming?

I have absolutely no idea who is scum. I have an idea who is town, and will happily lynch whoever in the other pile, by just sheeping somebody in my town pile.

So okay, sheeping jal.

VOTE: tajun

Two things:

1) I am insulted. Not that you think I am scum, but that you think I am stupid enough to leave the vig on.
2) Why do you have town on Jal?

And then Daumis was fucking obvtowner than he already was. Tajun was in the null stack. I can do a lynch on her.

Town

Siv
Hyp
Daumis
Jal

^That looks like such a buddying list.
The other three were there because fitz was giving me a weird feel, andrew usually is hard to read, and Mala's buddying with Pota is really odd now.

Ja

Two more things:
1) Why are Jal, Daumis and Hyp town? (You explained Hyp, but do you have any better reasons?)
2) I am a boy. Or man. Whatever.

In conclusion:

Siv, Andrew and GG are town. Even if you idiotically lynch me tonight, town should still win, unless you far more idiotically lynch from that list.
Everyone seems to be sheeping Jal. I have no idea why you people have town on her, but she is still null at best for me.
ISO of Potato coming up, stay tuned.

[Tajun]

Actually, one more possibility I hadn't considered:

@Voided: Can the scum activate the switch without the player who is the switch being present? That is, can a scumteam deactivate a switch on their QT or is it a PM thing?

[Tajun]

Okay, in retrospect Potato said a lot without saying much, and was a well deserved vig target. Here's the best I've got

Hyperion just 'summed up the game' without referring to everything that

isn't

the Daumis wagon. He didn't even pay attention to any of my posts and just continued to base theories off the wagon without real evidence or conviction. He basically discredited my reason for getting on the wagon by not even mentioning what that was and attacking a completely different reason instead. Then he proceeds to make a shit vote on Krazy for being 4th on the wagon,

which is a wiki tell

, therefore it's extremely useless.

VOTE: Hyperion

This doesn't read like a bus to me, this reads like a scum finding something interesting to talk about and going with it.

I'm fine with a lynch on Malpa or Hyperion today, would be willing to compromise on Daumis and possibly greygnarl.

Malpa we know he thought was town, Hyp I am betting the same. Setting up lynches on townies is a scum's best friend. Note the side glance at Daumis as well.

Alright, I know Om has a lot of school work so I'll try to fill in most of the gaps. This is the second head speaking.

I'm going have to interfere with what Om has said. I think the Jal vote we made was pretty OMGUS. So first thing is first...

UNVOTE:

Secondly, it would be unwise to lynch the SK this early on because it would lock our PRs and there is a good chance of a cross kill between SK and mafia.

Lets stop the meta talking and lynch who we think is scum.

VOTE: Daumis123

Returns to Daumis, after the brief absence. This is a little harder to read, with him being a hydra and all, but if it was pure Om I would definitely call this a return to the bus, which he thought would lead to a lynch.

Conclusions:
The Mala/Om fight was very well done if it was a bus. I would like to hear what Mala thinks of the flips, and who she now believes is scum. She gets some good town points.
Hyperion is the big winner here, definitely read that as scum on town action.
Hate to sound like a broken record, but I still think Daumis is the scummiest guy around. He also is a perfect fit for the "thought leaving the vig on was a good idea" thing, and he would certainly not have been a vig target.

VOTE: Daumis
I'll meditate on this overnight, let you know if anything else jumps out at me.

[Tajun]

I think the scum screwed up, exceedingly badly, but intentionally. My interpretation is that they left the vig on on purpose, thinking she would target town. In a game with an even number of people, this was a terribad move regardless, made all the more stupid by the fact that they could have sailed to an easy victory if they had not.

You're back to null, mostly because I just cleared two townies, one of whom was near the top of my list, so everyone moves down accordingly. Mostly, I don't see the super town read people have on you and wanted them to question it.

Yeah, I think they decided Daum was a lost cause and didn't want it to look like a bus by rejoining late after the nullish post before.

I don't remember Mala on AJ's scum list, but I'll check that when I get time. A bit busy right now, will post more tonight.

[Tajun]

Scum could have
1) put cop switch on
2) put vig switch on
3) get doc switch to kill someone
@Jal
i wouldnt clear anyone based on scum not putting on vig switch.


@Jal post 609, Mala was V/la wasnt she?

Pretty sure if I was scum I would've left the vig switch off because it's more likely they hit town. Just sayin.

I understand the switches now anyway. My mistake was that I have more than one game going so things can get mixed up.

the vig switch was left off...
wdf..



actually, back to the Mala 'bussing' Om part, the part where she said
she had meta on OM and therefore OM was scum, is invalid.
How is anyone supposed to defend himself from a meta case?
The case is therefore looks like a fake case that has no substance.
More likely to come from a scumbuddy.

suspects are grey and MAla and Siveure atm

Awesome, town clear #1 suspects town clear #2 and town leaning #1 and #2. This game gives me a bloody headache.
Really though Andrew, I definitely don't think the switch would have been left on if you were scum (fear of death) or if Siv was (because it was soooooo bloody stupid). GG and Mala I suspect are town for other reasons, but fairly strongly.

Right okay Andrew just went up to a scum read low due to his last post.

OM does meta posts all the time yet people are able to defend. Seemed like he got caught and couldn't defend himself from what was true.


Turns out grabbed wifi right near my job. So I can post here and there until main power is up and running.

Still VLA for about 7 days. Since they are saying 10 days until power is really back.

GAHHH! Townies suspecting townies everywhere!

DAUMIS

<---------------- Here is where your focus should be. See my posts 328 and 408. None of these cases have gone away. He is acting like "original" scum, he is on the very short list of people who would have thought it a good idea to leave the vig on, and everybody is giving him a pass for no good reason. He is scum in need of death.

@Jal: Checked AJ's list, you're right about Mala. Suspect her to be town for other reasons though, not sure she would have been afraid of a third place scumread dying.

[Tajun]

Afraid I've never played scum, here is a SK link, which was tragically wiped out in near entirety by the crash:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=19666
(I won! )

And, a couple of town, as requested
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=19576
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=19213

Good huntin'.

[Tajun]

Pretty sure if I was scum I would've left the vig switch off because it's more likely they hit town. Just sayin.

I understand the switches now anyway. My mistake was that I have more than one game going so things can get mixed up.

Guys, I hate to have to explain why GG is town again, but you are forcing me to. Is ^this a post from inexperienced scum who just did exactly what he said? No, it is not.

Seriously think a GG lynch is ridiculous. I agree that he hasn't been the most effective, but I don't see any scum motivation there whatsoever.

He's at L-2

, just so you know.

If you go that direction, at least wait for Daumis to chime in. I want to know what he thinks of all this.

[Tajun]

Hmm, fair point, didn't think he had played that much. Still got town on him though.

[Tajun]

I maintain that Siv is town, mostly because he wouldn't have screwed up the switches, he has thought about the game in a sensible fashion. Other than that he is null, but that is a strong case IMO.

Jal's argument on Daumis is good, another nail in the coffin. Siv/havingfitz argument is silly, because Siv is right. The SK could easily have thought he was not a likely cop target, or cop immune wanting to be cleared, etc. etc., lot's of possible reasons he could throw the cop switch. If I was SK I'd have done it just to F*** with the maf. It doesn't clear GG certainly, since the scum are clearly in the habit of screwing the pooch regardless, but it is evidence.

Post 701 by GG is the first mildly scummy thing he has done this game, throwing his support behind his own counterwagon out of the blue is a bit sketchy. Pointing it out makes it less so (saying he was pulling a complete 180), but the fact that he didn't follow through with a vote makes me a bit nervous. Technically that would have put Daum to L-1 though (my vote should be on there) so it might have been prudent. Makes me a bit nervous, but I still think Daum should be today's lynch. I am willing to hear his replacement out.

@Voided: I am voting Daumis.

[Tajun]

He's confirmed scum.
Now reread Fritz, and they had pre start night which meant they chatted, do you still think Fritz is scum?

Sorry you said you started getting town vibes at post 740? Well this is 743 and you call him "confirmed scum"
Sorry Mala,
VOTE: Malakittens

Other reasoning is PoE and her buddying with Pota.

Wow, reasoning is bad for sooooo many reasons.
1)

No

on the first point, as has been pointed out.
2) PoE is complete crap.
3) She wasn't buddying Pota.
4) Dear god, since when do scum buddy one another?

This post is almost bad enough to make me think you are bussing her. You're both lucky I have town reads on you. (well, GG anyway)

Buuuut, with Jal flipping cop, I am now free to do this

VOTE: havingfitz

who would have been getting crucified the entire game by me if I didn't have a PR read on him. Should stop doing those really.

Case is mostly gut, but it is very strong gut. Also, he is trying to pretend he understands the game mechanics (with the interaction between scum and SK and whatever), but 706 proves that is a lie. Post 699 he goes hard against Jal, feels pretty fake really. Also, there is almost no interaction between him and Potatohou, and what is there is a couple questions and a weak scum read. Not to mention 194, where he oddly places the "cop investigate pota" bit without any explanation, then asks for reads without giving any. Everyone should ISO him, there is no town there.

[Tajun]

That's your case? I'm thinking this is a chainsaw defense going on, along with real defense (of fitz). Awfully odd timing, especially considering that you were happy to sheep my vote yesterday, when all these facts were happily in play. FOS Mala, will definitely be a vote if Fitz flips scum.

[Tajun]

K…not a lot of catching up to do from today. Mislynch today = LYLO tomorrow as someone has said. I’m going to respond to Tajun first and then look over the last two days a bit closer.

Buuuut, with Jal flipping cop, I am now free to do this

VOTE: havingfitz

who would have been getting crucified the entire game by me if I didn't have a PR read on him. Should stop doing those really.

Tajun…what made you think I was a PR? Be specific if you can.

But for the fact you thought I was a PR you say you would have been “crucifying me the entire game”…so let’s see what game-long reasons

(bolded by me below0

you had for wanting to crucify me:

1) -

Case is mostly gut, but it is

very strong gut.

2) -

Also, he is

trying to pretend he understands the game mechanics (with the interaction between scum and SK and whatever), but 706 proves that is a lie.

3) -

Post 699 he goes hard against Jal,

feels pretty fake really

.

4) -

Also, there is

almost no interaction between him and Potatohou

, and what is there is a couple questions and a weak scum read.

5) -

Not to mention 194, where he oddly places the "cop investigate pota" bit without any explanation,

6) -

then

asks for reads without giving any.

7) -

Everyone should ISO him, there is no town there.

1) -

“Very strong gut”. Can’t argue with that logic. Good work.

2) -

I beg your pardon. An ad-hom AND a misrep in one line. KMA. IMO I do understand how this game works. It’s pretty fcuking clear given that it’s an open game and everything is completely out in the open. There is no lie thank you.

3) -

Feels pretty fake really. Can’t argue with that logic either other than to say I disagree and there was nothing fake about my exchange with Jal. In fact…as I type this response, I wonder if your sudden interest in me is linked to Jal in more ways than you mention. Ie I wonder if I’m being set up.

4) -

I don’t interact a great deal with everyone in a game. In fact, it’s not unusual for me to get flack for this. I tend to focus on my main suspects or people of interest. People who I have a town feel for or am uncertain of I tend to stand back from…especially on D1. How does my interaction with Potato compare to everyone else’s participation with him? And is that a reliable scumtell for all players or does it vary per individual?

5) -

This is the earliest mention of suspicions towards me (despite the “entire game” suspicions). How is this suspicious? I suspected GG for trying to steer the cop. IMO that is scummy. And the fact he was steering the cop towards Potato means nothing given the switching dynamic of this game.

6) -

Misrep. I’ve been giving reads throughout the game. Ex: Daumis, GG, malpa-Siv-Hyperion, Krazy, Tajun and Jal, Andrew, Potato, Hyperion, Mala and Tajun, GG-Tajun-Daumis, Several players AND Jal.

7) -

Please do.

tl:dr;

That’s a shit case Tajun. Nothing you’ve mentioned above holds any water and it seems like it’s manufactured from nothing. Gut? Feels fake? You seem so in touch with your suspicions. It’s a beautiful thing.

FOS

Tajun

1) Strong gut based on your posts. Your first 20 posts of the game have a total of 4 with any content worth mentioning, and even that is pretty weak. The reason I don't have a case on you is because you haven't posted enough content to make a case out of.

2) We all know the mechanics unless we are having epic failures. The difference is you can't think of a reason why SK would turn the cop on. Hmm, maybe he is town action immune?

3) Yes, I killed Jal to set you up. Not because he is a town leader, or suspicious of me, but rather to make you look guilty! Well f*ing played.

4) It seemed out of place, but it's not the meat of the case, I'll grant you. Just jumped out when I ISO'ed you two together.

5) My bad, I misread that.

6) Most of your posts you don't though. This is my major issue, you seem to ask a tonne of questions, then not really follow up with interrogations etc, just kept the same suspicions. It reads as trying to fit in without doing much.

Specifically, that is why I thought you were a PR as well. In a lot of ways, PR and scum have similar goals: Fit in, don't draw attention, don't piss people off too much, do their damage at night. I definitely read that in your posts. The reason I thought you were PR, rather than scum, was that you left the AJ wagon and kept pressure on GG, rather than act to get a wagon through. It seemed like you cared about the town while still trying not to stand out, ie a PR.

Quick question based on your VCA: Do you think GG and I are a scumteam?

Chainsaw defense isn't always scummy. It's not a huge scum tell to me. Same goes with aTe,

The point here was the timing. Why point this out now, after I make this case, and not say yesterday, when you knew all this anyway? The interactions between the two of you give me serious pause here.

@Siv: I'm scummy for sheeping? I do hope you appreciate the irony here, especially considering that I have been blatantly pushing my agenda the entire game.

[Tajun]

Mala, you do realize that there are two scum left right (ie not three)? Also, why do you list the scum as in {GG, Hyper, Siv} and place me in your scumteam guess?

I am one hundred percent against a Siv lynch, he is the absolute last person I would lynch right now.

Save me an ISO andrew....what is your case on Siv again?

This.

Fitz's reactions give me pause. I'll have to go through some ISOs, feel like I am missing something. Back soon.

[Tajun]

OK, sticking with my guns on Fitz. A few townlike posts right now doesn't confirm him one way or the other, and I don't like his arguments for much of the game. On other people:

Siv: I am unwilling to lynch him, I doubt he would openly sheep a scumbuddy (see 180) and he seems to understand the game well enough not to screw the pooch night 1.

GG: I really

really

don't see the case here. His aggressiveness and posting in general scream town at the top of their lungs to me. Could

anyone

please explain why they are suspicious of him in a sensible manner?

Hyperion: I like his entrance and his analysis, and his interactions with Om. Betting town here.

Andrew: Possible scum, but frankly I am not sure why the vig would have been left on if he were, and I don't see "i wouldnt clear anyone based on scum not putting on vig switch." coming from scum who are the obvious target if we do as he says. Could be WIFOM, but I bet town here.

Mala: PoE? God, I hate PoE, but it seems right right now. Her interactions with Fitz make me think possible scum team, although I wasn't thinking that from Om. My best guess for the partner.

[Tajun]

K…not a lot of catching up to do from today. ▶ Show quoted text Daumis, GG, malpa-Siv-Hyperion, Krazy, Tajun and Jal, Andrew, Potato, Hyperion, Mala and Tajun, GG-Tajun-Daumis, Several players AND Jal.

7) -

Please do.

tl:dr;

That’s a shit case Tajun. Nothing you’ve mentioned above holds any water and it seems like it’s manufactured from nothing. Gut? Feels fake? You seem so in touch with your suspicions. It’s a beautiful thing.

FOS

Tajun

1) Strong gut based on your posts. Your first 20 posts of the game have a total of 4 with any content worth mentioning, and even that is pretty weak. The reason I don't have a case on you is because you haven't posted enough content to make a case out of.

2) We all know the mechanics unless we are having epic failures. The difference is you can't think of a reason why SK would turn the cop on. Hmm, maybe he is town action immune?

3) Yes, I killed Jal to set you up. Not because he is a town leader, or suspicious of me, but rather to make you look guilty! Well f*ing played.

4) It seemed out of place, but it's not the meat of the case, I'll grant you. Just jumped out when I ISO'ed you two together.

5) My bad, I misread that.

6) Most of your posts you don't though. This is my major issue, you seem to ask a tonne of questions, then not really follow up with interrogations etc, just kept the same suspicions. It reads as trying to fit in without doing much.

Specifically, that is why I thought you were a PR as well. In a lot of ways, PR and scum have similar goals: Fit in, don't draw attention, don't piss people off too much, do their damage at night. I definitely read that in your posts. The reason I thought you were PR, rather than scum, was that you left the AJ wagon and kept pressure on GG, rather than act to get a wagon through. It

seemed like you cared about the town

while still trying not to stand out, ie a PR.

1) So gut. Intuition. How did that work for you with your Daumis, Aunt Jemina an Malpascp pushes? Granted town (and scum) got lucky on Malpascp. I obviously disagree with your “gut” and the lack of tangible scummy posts makes it easy for you to throw out suspicions. I find myself giving reads, asking questions, providing opinion and trying to progress the game. To keep activity positive. How is any of that scummy?

2) My point was and still is…how does my Post 706 prove anything with regard to my understanding of the game’s mechanics is a lie? The fact you might not understand what my point was doesn’t mean it’s a contradiction of anything I said earlier (ie a lie). When I made my comments in Post 706 everyone knew that the SK had selected NK-immune. I take this to mean he was vulnerable to the vig and cop. Which is the point I was making. That the SK would not counteract the scum switches on the cop or vig for fear of being a target of either. . In your comment above you say maybe he was town action immune which we know is not the case. Which I knew was not the case in Post 706 and which is what I assumed the SK would elect to do when I read over the mechanics.

Maybe I’m just not understanding your point. If you for some reason still want to purport my knowledge of the game mechanics somehow represents a lie, please elaborate in a separate post

3) No…you very well could have killed him because he was a “town leader” or

suspicious of you

. But trying to accuse my exchange with him as fake is ridiculous. How would you know? I stand by all the points I made in that exchange with Jal. Why would I have killed Jal? Essentially your “feels fake” is another intuition tell you are proposing against me.

4) “Seems”….OK…so more feely than touchy? Using your intuition/gut again? And you didn’t answer this

” How does my interaction with Potato compare to everyone else’s participation with him? And is that a reliable scumtell for all players or does it vary per individual?”

5) So a misrep on your part. Unintentional I'm sure you would insist. But admittedly not a point against me.

6) Most of my points I don’t though?! WTF are you talking about? First off…who gives reads in “most of their posts?” No one I would wager. But your point was that I ask for reads but don’t give any. That was an absolute. I’ve proven that to be wrong by listing a dozen posts where I DID give a read. So another misrep on your part which you are still perpetuating despite proof the point is false.

Tl:dr;

So in review of your 6 points against me…. Points 1, 3 and 4 are based on feelings and can not be proven. Though I feel I have argued point 1 well. 3 WIFOM on top of the original “fake” accusation, and 4 is just ridiculous. As for your other points, 2 is an ad-hom and misrep on your part that has yet to be proven and 5 was a misrep that you withdrew. And 6 was another misrep which was resoundingly proven to be inaccurate. So all your points are shit. And when did caring about town become a bad thing? You should try it.

Sure, I don't care about the town. That's why I have been aggressively pushing lynches through on people who I think are scum, instead of sitting back and offering the odd read. And guess what, you can't "prove" any points in mafia, this is a game about trying to find people who look like scum, most of that is gut. Most of the "hard" analysis methods, like scumtells and VCA are pretty well useless in my experience, and tend to backfire more often than not.

On your points:
1) Yeah, gut. Krazy was sketchy as hell, and as it turned out I wasn't the only one who thought so. Malp too, and that was a hit. Daum I thought so too. I'm not going to give up the best method I have found of finding scum on a couple of misses.

2) Fact: GG's post was directing the cop to a scum player.
Fact: Whatever his alignment, GG cannot have, at that time, known the SK's choice.
Fact: If GG is scum, and was successful at directing the cop, there should have been (from his point of view) a very real possibility that this would have outed Potatohou.
Fact: Your post 706 proves that you did not understand this point.

In addition, you just said the town got lucky on Malpascp. I have already been over why this is not true, see post 271 and 315.

3) Not getting back into feelings, but it struck me as off. That's all.

4) Avoidance is one of the most common types of interactions between scum early on, which makes it more reliable than most. As for how it compares, Mala's interactions speak for themselves, I explained in post 646 what I thought of the Pot/Hyp interactions. Andrews interactions with him are also weak, although I think he is town for other (NK related) reasons. He is my next suspect though (after you and Mala). GG pushes a strange case, that he thinks Pot might be too town to be town, and suggests the cop investigate him. It's weird, but not really scummy. Kind of a risky move to attack GG late in the day (by Pot, if he is scum). Siv opens his first post with "I'm sheeping Om", and I don't really read the interactions there as scum scum.

5) Sure.

6) My point was on a particular post, and frankly yeah, most of my posts I try to do something worthwhile.

Mala is atop my town list. You and Hyperion are competing for 2nd mostly due to poe, then andrew (again...poe) followed by Tajun and GG on the scummy end.

Please, for the love of all that is good, tell me you are not giving town reads based on PoE. Also, still waiting on that GG case.

[Tajun]

I gotta say GG, I actually kind of like that case. Do you have anything worthwhile to say in your own defense?

@Mala: I dislike PoE to identify scum because it inherently assumes that all your townreads are correct, which is fantastically arrogant (yeah, I know, I often am). But using PoE to give out townreads? That's what's known as "identifying the scumteam". If a scumteam is obvious enough for you to have townreads based on PoE, then you should make a case to have them lynched based on "Here are the scum!!!" and not give out town reads. PoE should never,

ever

be used for townreads, and should be only sparingly used for scumreads as well.

[Tajun]

Not much to say. I still think GG will flip town, but I am far less sure than I was a couple days ago. Not even pretending to defend himself is bad. My best guess if he does flip town is one of Fitz and Mala, with andrew or possibly Hyp as the partner. Fitz Andrew I guess is my best bet. Not buying Siv as scum. If GG flips scum, andrew or Mala most likely is the partner. Andrew's completely ignoring the topics of discussion is terribad, not to mention the fact that he has been scummy all throughout. A bit tough to see why andrew would leave the vig on, but could have just been a goof I guess. Mala Fitz no longer seems likely, based on the posting at the end of the day today.

[Tajun]

Ummm.

I think tajun-andrew as the scumteam most likely.

Idk about GG solidly, but it seems like a towntell to me to direct the cop at your buddy. It was also a very casual post.

Fitz somewhat suspicious for trying to erase the towntell... Hmm.

Actually, the fact that he is voting GG after this post is scaring me. He is scummy by his posts, but he seems with it enough not to screw up the switch. Not positive on this, but still thinking town here.

[Tajun]

N0 sure, my issue is N1. It's a pretty ridiculous screw up though, severe enough to be notable, and worth examining (to me anyway).

[Tajun]

Not my partner, not my mistake. You seem a bit touchy on this point though.

[Tajun]

Still don't like Mala. She's playing up her accusations on Om too much. I tell you that no townie points to their own scumreads to clear themselves.

Ok GG, how did you go from here to having a town read on Mala your next set of reads?

Wait. I think I'm laughing a bit here.

You are calling me out for apparently trying to clear myself from having a scum read on Pota after he flipped scum.

You haven't A) defended yourself from any cases made by Fritz. B) voted Siv for no reason. C) tried to clear yourself by wanting the cop to investigate Pota. (Ps btw with switches you know that cop is abousetly powerless) for town points.

You are continually trying to use your gut by calling me scum.

I feel you are tunneling on me.

So GG, explain to me why Siv is scum.

---

PS IF GG FLIPS SCUM, lynch Siv. He's trying to distance.

OH GOOD GOD! NONONONONONONONO! Cop =/= powerless with switches! DO I REALLY HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS AGAIN?

That's the thing..

I'm town. I didn't bus Pota. Yet you are tooooo stubborn to admit that!

How would he f*ing know that if he is town? And if he is scum, why in god's name would he?
Mala's posting has gone off the deep end.
UNVOTE:
I'd like to hear why GG suddenly has a town read on her before I re-place my vote.

[Tajun]

I was going to say I would catch up tomorrow from the weekend's postings but there hasn't been hardly any. I'm surprised GG did vote me sooner. Do you have a case on me GG? You know...like the one I provided on you.

Mala...why were you so pissed at GG (see question to you in my last post).

Tajun...you were voting me. What does GG's read on Mala have to do with you voting me? Weak vote that it is.

Planning to vote one of them, but I haven't decided which one yet. Either way you've felt better of late and my town reads on others are evaporating faster then I can shake a stick at them.

Not really a case yet. More of an idea that will evolve in to a case if I decide to reread the game. (Which I'll probably be doing if I don't get lazy.)

Read on Mala changed becasue it was gut about her interaction with AP and then I remembered that little gem.

I assume you mean Om? How does that move her to top town spot?

[Tajun]

Nice try GG regarding my AJ unvote. That wagon was by no means losing any steam when I got off. iirc I got off it because I didn't feel comfortable with the people who were on it (aka poe for Tajun). I also happened to get off it before AJ claimed vig whereas everyone else who left her wagon did so after her claim.

As for Pota's post 577 comments towards you...he was on your wagon for all of 10 posts...hardly a serious threat to you.

Siv...where are you at now regarding GG?

Fitz, what do you mean by aka poe for Tajun? Just curious.

Still not sure I like a GG lynch. He is contradicting himself some, which is coming off as scummy, but I think he is actually having a hard time making up his mind. This is usually town IME.

GG, are you seriously voting me for following

your

policy lynch? Right before deadline? On a player I had a scumread on beforehand?

Just read through andrew's ISO. It is an absolute wasteland. He may well have just screwed up and left the vig on, my doubt of which is about the only thing keeping him alive.

[Tajun]

Whoops, forgot to
VOTE: andrew94

[Tajun]

Good freaking mercy GG, are you even going to pretend you care about the case on you?

@Fitz: Gotcha, wasn't sure what you meant.

@Hyperion: It's true, walking is a poor option... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-yNp_P7Pb8

@Siv: Do you have any other reasons for voting GG, other than sheeping Jal et. whomever? Because you'll note that he hasn't been lynched yet, ie the overwhelming majority opinion you are offering doesn't exactly hold water.

@Andrew: Anything useful to add?

[Tajun]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Is everyone voting who they think is scum? Ffs......

Tajun...do you have a case on andrew aside from being a wasteland? Have you iso'd everyone else?

No and yes. Isos basically went like this:

Siv: "I think I'll blatantly sheep everyone all game!" God this guy frustrates me, but a town read regardless based on his understanding of things and general attitude, I don't really read scum intent.

GG: "I have no fucking clue what I am talking about!" Really don't see scum intent, although I don't see any effective posting either.

Andrew: "Huh? There's a game going on?" The only mitigating factor is that it is hard to see three scum leaving a vig on with a top scum read of a claimed vig being present. Otherwise, he is scum all the way, based on having done nothing worth listening to.

Mala: "I'll leave my vote on my top scumread without making a case worth listening to. Then I'll go after whomever comes up." Very meh here, having trouble reading her. Don't like her not pushing the Om lynch if she believed in it like she claimed to.

You: Did not much day 1, but have improved since. I think you believe GG is scum, so I'm giving you towncred for that, even if I disagree.

Hyperion: Still read town, angry town to be sure. Being a bit too careless to be scum in my eyes.

Basically, the intersection of {understands the proper game theory}, {makes effective cases} and {trying to actually search for scum} is pretty well null. Andrew, however, is in none of those categories.

[Tajun]

Wonderful... I don't see this going anywhere with Andrew gone. I am certainly not jumping wagons.

Here is my case on Andrew. It is referred to as meta, and I hate it somewhat less than most methods. Here is town Andrew:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

You'll note such things as content, scumhunting and reads. Here is our Andrew:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I don't see a lot of that. I couldn't find scum andrew, so meh.

Honestly, I am not certain about this lynch, but I much prefer it to GG. He has been a bump this game, and I don't see any town motivation in his posts whatsoever.

[Tajun]

Alright, suggestions for who the scumteam might be, with reasons for suspecting them if possible.

No one vote yet, hopefully that much is obvious. I am a bit suprised that Mala died, I kind of thought she was scum. I don't like the fact that Hyp has been under the radar so far, and I am not a huge fan of Fitz hammering andrew after his VCA crap about GG and my wagons. Joining another is a bit odd, if he believed in what he was selling.

Thoughts anyone?

[Tajun]

GG, why the town read on Siv?

Internet access restored.

Good morning LYLO. Please mind your votes people.

@Tajun...what VCA crap are you talking about? And despite your weak case and ''reluctance'' to vote for andrew you still managed to initiate his wagon from out of nowhere and now you are going to criticize people who essentially supported your ~case/suspicions towards him? And Siv and GG's votes on andrew are even more questionable. At least I had andrew as my next most suspect after you and GG. On the stated assumption that I didn't think BOTH you and GG were scum, that made andrew my #2 suspect.

And you're seriously going to feign surprise at mala's death? Woe is you.

I agree Hyperion deserves more scrutiny today...he's like the new andrew. Just slightly less of a wasteland. I'm going back to my GG and/or Tajun as scum. I've made my case on GG alredy. Add to that his reasonless vote on andrew. I still would have preferred a GG lynch yesterday but with two L-1 wagons and andrew the lone vote still out there I did not see the GG wagon happening unless Tajun or Siv switched wagons. Especially since I thought GG was more likely to be scum than Tajun and that andrew was a reasonable suspect as his partner.

Back to my "crap VCA" observations...GG and Tajun remain the only two players who have been on every lynch. And considering malpascp was not mafia, mafia would have considered him a preferrable lynch target as well. Ergo GG and Tajun have been on every mislynch. And they are the only two remaining from the D2 Daumis/kwll lynch. I will not even consider the possibility that at least one of them is not scum. They could BOTH be scum but I still have doubts on that. In LYLO I'd rather target a 50-100% chance of hitting scum (GG or Tajun) than a 0-50% chance of hitting scum (Siv or Hyper).

I plan on voting GG but I'd like to hear others comments first and have a closer look at Tajun's ISO. I probably won't finish it today but I will at least start it. We have time.

Sigh... This VCA:

Spoiler:

OK...a little VCA to see if anything stands out from the first two days....

FYI, I'm looking at the peak wagons on any known alignments and I'm treating malpa as town because in scum's eyes he would have been just another mislynch.

Five known alignments (not counting the N0 casualties) in

malpascp

,

Aunt Jemina

,

Potato

,

Daumis

, and

Jal

.

Jal

and

Potato

did not have any wagons of note. Only living player to put a vote on

Jal

was greygnarl. Only living players to have a vote on

Potato

were an extremely brief RVS vote by greygnarl and a majority of the day vote (post 6-448) by Mala.

Daumis

wagon #1 reached L-1 very briefly and early in the game.

Daumis

wagon #2 reached L-2 later in D1.

Aunt Jemina

#1 reached L-1 (pre-claim).

Aunt Jemina

#2 reached L-1 (post-claim???).
The lone

malpascp

wagon #1 reached SK lynch.

Daumis

wagon #3 reached mislynch D2.

I'm considering all of these mislynches from scum's POV so scum is just as likely to be on the sk wagon as the mislynch wagons.

Daumis

wagon #1 - Tajun,

Jal

,

malpascp

,

Potato

, andrew and greygnarl

Daumis

wagon #2 - andrew,

Potato

, Tajun,

Jal

, Siveure

Aunt Jemina

#1 - greygnarl, Malakittens,

Daumis

, Tajun,

Potato

, andrew

Aunt Jemina

#2 - greygnarl, Malakittens,

Daumis

, Tajun, andrew,

malpascp

malpascp

wagon #1 - greygnarl, Siveure, Tajun,

Potato

,

Daumis

,

Aunt Jemina

, Hyperion

D1 wagon thoughts: Potato was on all three wagons at one point or another. Which fits considering he was scum. The same can be said about greygnarl and Tajun. Andrew was on both town mislynches while Siv and Malakittens both appear on one wagon each. It’s interesting to note that the only vote on Aunt Jemina AFTER her vig claim was mapascp. Not sure if that led to his quick lynch but all 7 of his votes came after he vote AJ. I doubt all three scum would push malpascp’s ~mislynch so my guess is there is probably at least one more scum on malpascp’s wagon and therefore probably one off it. On it I would lean towards greygnarl or Tajun. Off I would lean towards Andrew (mostly due to POE as I know I’m town and I’m leaning town on Mala). Also of note…malpascp had a small wagon earlier in the day where he got up to three votes on him. His three voters were grey , Siv and Tajun….all three of whom spent a fair amount of D1 on malpascp.

Daumis

wagon #3 - Tajun, andrew,

Jal

, greygnarl, Malakittens

D2 wagon thoughts:

Tajun and greygnarl appear again, they’ve been on all the major mislynch wagons, along with Mala and andrew. Mala’s hammer was probably the first thing he has done the entire game that made me question his alignment. I still lean more town towards Mala but I would prefer to not try and decide between him and andrew. With greygnarl and Tajun I’m not as concerned because at closer look they both are suspect. Still leaning greygnarl though soooo

VOTE: greygnarl

You basically say GG and Tajun are on every mislynch wagon, so one is probably scum. Then you jump on a wagon with the two of us. I fail to see the town motivation here, although I do give you points for having andrew as possible scum earlier. As for Siv, he did suspect andrew earlier, but I don’t much like his voting explanations day 3, and I don’t at all like his vote jumping between me, GG and andrew in such a critical day, come to think of it. I maintain GG is derp town. If I am wrong about that, Siv is almost definitely the partner, based on their interactions yesterday.

I didn’t mean your VCA is crap, I meant all VCA is crap, IMO. I have never once seen it used to get scum lynched, and I have seen it used to get town lynched on multiple occasions.

[Tajun]

@Tajun...I maintain my belief that one of you or GG are scum. I use VCA in almost all my games and have found scum more than once using it. I have been terribly wrong as well but over all it's been more useful of a tool than not. So I use it. The people it points me to tend to trash VCAs. meh.

Andrew was essentially my #2 suspect and his wagon had you, GG and Siv on it. On the assumption that only one of you were scum and that Siv was town...it wasn't as bad a wagon as it looked. And if andrew had flipped scum it would have pointed my suspicions more towards Hyper and Mala as potential partners versus you or GG. So there was still benefit in voting him fmpov. andrew's town flip strengthens my suspicions towards you and GG (leaning GG) and keeps Hyper and Siv in the same order as before. I'm also less sure today than I was yesterday that only one of you or GG are scum.

As for the people on andrew's wagon expressing previous suspicion towards him prior to his vote....all three of you at one point or the other yesterday listed andrew as a suspect of interest. So none of you really did a complete 180 to join his wagon and iirc none of you ever really gave any good reasons for suspecting him. So all that does is keep the waters muddied a bit IMO.

And I have to say...your willingness to give poor play a pass for derpiness is very frustrating and probably the only reason I think you could be partnered with GG. As we are in LYLO there is no consequences for you supporting/defending him if he is in fact scum so why not give derping a pass?

Busy this morning but I hope to get a chance at some ISO's this afternoon. Is anyone else doing anything? Hyper? Siv? Dare I say it....GG?

Which by the way, I only had a few seconds yesterday to respond to GG's accusation that I have been on every wagon but that was BS. You can call him derp all you like but I tend to think scum have less of a need to follow along with the game closely...especially the derpier they are. i.e. derpy + scum = lazy reader. Which throwing out completely baseless accusations indicates to me. I.e. being derpy isn't indicative of alignment but not paying attention and false accusations is.

Haha, fair enough. I have seen it used badly repeatedly, by both town and scum, but never successfully. Last game I got two townies lynched in a row, based on this (and other things, but a lot of VCA). I stopped believing in it in a big way (I was town).

There are consequences for me not defending GG if he is town though, which I think he is. Ie. I am pretty much his only supporter left, and without me he will most likely be lynched. As you mentioned, this is LYLO. I don't like his behaviour any more than you do, I just don't think it is scum motivated. I have seen stupid town, lazy town, derpy town and infuriating town, and none of those characteristics are scummy in and of themselves. Look at what GG has done. He told the cop to investigate Om (which is not a meaningless thing, no matter what you say). He frequently attacks me, the only reason he is still alive. He has been blunt about things (his thoughts on players and night actions), as far as I can tell. Everything he does seems town motivated, and I just don't see him flipping scum.

I disagree with your last point. I think scum pay just as close, if not closer attention. In my experience, they seem far more on top of these things than a lot of townies, in part because they already know what is going on. It's kind of difficult to fake confused IMO.

@Siv: Trust me, I am not setting up a GG lynch. But if he is scum, the fact that you jumped onto his wagon with little reason when it looked like it was lynch-bound, then backed off completely after I derailed it and went for the next target, screams scum to me. That's really all I have there.

[Tajun]

@Grey: You're posting on another board. Get in here and play before I get mad.

[Tajun]

What are your thoughts on Hyp's recent posting (or lack thereof)? Also, still curious about your Siv read.

[Tajun]

Mala probably died because she was one of the only people left talking. Siv, GG and Hyp are pretty much all completely indifferent.

Siv, if you have a moment, could you join us and tell us who you think are scum? Possibly including something other than a single night`s kill analysis? GG, ditto that, any thoughts?

Fitz, I don`t imagine I can convince you GG isn`t scummy, but let`s imagine for a second you are right, and we lynch him tonight. Who would his partner likely be, other than me?

[Tajun]

Siv, I really hope you are scum. Otherwise you are pretty well throwing away the game. Do you have any evidence? Or original thought processes? OR FUCKING ANYTHING WORTH CONTRBUTING???

You'll note that, in post 315, I basically spelled out a winning strategy for scum if we lynched the SK night one. All that they had to do was block the vig. It was fucking obvious that that was the right play. Do you ACTUALLY believe that I am so fucking stupid that I can't follow my own advise? What the fuck is the matter with you????

Seriously, what the hell?

[Tajun]

Wow. Just wow.

[Tajun]

Well done guys. I leave town for a day and return lynched.

Siv, GG Andrew all town, as I mentioned earlier (should have stuck with that one ) and Hyp/fitz as the remainders, as I figured this morning.

Meh. I am not too disappointed. I will be a right bit more arrogant in the future though. Mala lynch to frame me and GG then?

[Tajun]

Lol, just read through things... NFW! Voided, that is NOT how the switches work! LOL!!!

Mechanics

Nightstart
Pregame, the Serial Killer chooses an immunity: Mafia NK Immunity OR Vig/Cop Immunity

Each night, the town powerroles are active pending a player "switching" them off.

The Mafia Cop Switch may switch off the Cop for example, with each Mafia player controlling a switch over a town PR.
However, the SK has the ability to reverse any switches' state. For example, if the Mafia Doc Switch, leaves the Doctor active, the SK choosing to reverse the Doc's switch will cause it to be inactive.
The Serial Killer may reverse all three, none of the switches or any combination in between.
An individual mafia member may not submit the factional kill AND deactivate a switch on the same night.

From the wiki. See the bolded portion.

Wow. The town should have been uberfucked after night one. And all my good calls were just random chance.
Wow.

[Tajun]

Yeah, GG you didn't do too badly. You were obvtown pretty well the whole game. Not sure where you got scum on me from though.

[Tajun]

Hahaha ah well... GG all (good game that is), it has been fun. Sorry for the freakout friday Siv, I wasn't in the mood to get lynched. Happened anyway. Whatevs.

Fitz, it was fun crossing swords with ya, should have stuck to my guns, but well played on the defense.

Voided, thanks for modding!

[Tajun]

Why not, I must ask? I was super suspicious of FItz as soon as I saw Jal's flip. I blew it using up my cred getting Daumis lynched, I realize, but I would have been pretty surprised to see fitz town. Hyper seemed far more town in my eyes.