Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Sixty]

uo.ou

Vote: PiggyGal15

(L-2)

We can count three different reasons to sniff this way.

Well, four.

[Sixty]

Page 2 L-1 wagons are yummy delicious, but I really like my absta101 vote at the moment.

Decisions, decisions.

Curious puppy is curious - why would you L-1 PiggyGal?

[Sixty]

Curious puppy is curious - why would you L-1 PiggyGal?

Because L-1 wagons are yummy delicious.

Let's see how that stacks up against our own reasons.

[ ] _____________________
[ ] _____________________
[ ] _____________________
[ ] _____________________

Survey SAYS:

*ding*

[ ] _____________________
[ ] _____________________
[ ] _____________________
[4] IIIIIIT'S BACOOOOOOON!

...hey, wait a minute.

[Sixty]

I believe I would've voted absta if I were you. The reason being I didn't comment on anything, I just voted.

So you're going to consciously do something scummy and say "oh well done you get a Town read" when you're called on it?

Scratch that. What do you think of Voided?

I think it would be much more interesting if YOU told us what you thought of Voidedmafia.

[Sixty]

So you're going to consciously do something scummy and say "oh well done you get a Town read" when you're called on it?

No. I reviewed what I did after Equinox voted me to see if his vote was warranted.

This sounds remarkably like you decided you were going for reactions

after

the fact.

So this is the part where you start talking about your stance in re: PiggyGal.

[Sixty]

Unvote: PiggyGal15
Vote: absta101

(L-4)

[Sixty]

Did you see that v/la post

[from Soul2277]

? Holy crap guys! Scum has seriously been caught!

(jk UNVOTE: )
I understand N bandwagoning, he likes bandwagons, but Equinox didn't even put a silly sentance in there to make me feel better about being brought to L-2 on page 1
VOTE: Equinox
Clearly a lazy band-wagoning scum looking for an easy lynch.

Because going v/la is a null tell, so I was joking about it being a scummy-as-hell tell ^.^

(seriously though, votes on Equinox are good votes)

Here we see that the V/LA thing was a joke (she was voting Soul2277 as RVS), and she shifts to Equinox.

I brought up the v/la as a means to end my RVS while letting things stay in RVS because I know things are going to stay in RVS even when things actually get serious. It happens. It's why I don't like RVS, because even when it obviously come to an end, new players that haven't posted yet still look to RVS to join in the conversation - so it was a way to let the other 5ish people come in without feeling the need to awkwardly stay in RVS - call my logic flawed, but when you know something is inevitable, it's best just to give in and join their side - which I get a feeling will become my lynch very soon :/

This no longer sounds like a joke; she changed her story. If it was a joke, why a) so much explanation and b) is she trying to make others comfortable? There is no Town motivation in helping others find their feet during RVS.

D'aw <3 L-1 already? I feel da loves <3

My wagon is wonderful <3 I think there's at least one scum on it

No analysis; calling one scum on the wagon and not bothering to deconstruct it is a lazy attempt to show work. She is hoping the pressure will go away if she seems disinterested on the wagon, but she is not trying to scumhunt. This continues here:

Lawl, don't worry bout my meta, seriously, I can self meta for you right here - I'm a lazy-troll as town and a slightly-inclined-but-still-lazy-troll as scum, basically, there's no difference in my play (as of recent) and meta'ing me is just a waste of time.

[snip]

Voided's town, Thor's scaring me with his laid-backness, absta is just being scummy, and I still don't like dogs.

1) PiggyGal's description of her own meta is false. Meta was one of the main tools we used to read her as scum in xudeR aifaM esreveR. This might be obliviousness to her own meta, but we have trouble believing she really thinks her Town/scum meta is indistinguishable when she just came out of a game where she was pinned accurately as scum on meta.
2) absta101 is scummy, yet deserves no vote. She sees him gather suspicion, but is more concerned elsewhere. The question is where, which leads to:
3) Where is Equinox in this post?
4) Note that she is not analyzing her own wagon:

Vote Count

• PiggyGal15 (4)
  : Voidedmafia Thor665 N Equinox
  
• absta101 (2)
  : Cerulean Sixty
  
• Equinox (1)
  : PiggyGal15
  
• Not voting:
  JesseSheffield Soul2277 absta101

Deadline: Sun 25 Nov, 00:05 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2012-11-25 00:05:00)

)

With 10 alive it is 6 to lynch.

She starts with Voidedmafia and Thor, ignores N and Equinox, mentions absta and does nothing about it, and we are scummy in some undisclosed form. Why those four players in particular?

[Thor's]

laid backness scares me because since when are you so lax? o.O In fact, UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thor
call me paranoid, but you're posts are giving me scum chills.

No word on Equinox and no effective action regarding absta101 or us.

Unvote: absta101
Vote: PiggyGal15

(L-1)

[Sixty]

Still, this quoted bit - kind of a reach, isn't it?

In the sense of scumPig twirling her mustache and hatching an evil plot to

bring out the comfy chair

in the early pages, yes. In terms of showing it as a facile excuse for her actions, no.

In case it needs saying, the first thing someone posts isn't guaranteed to be scummy. It IS a problem scum have to fight against though, since they're actually thinking of these things.

She changed her story between Post 20 and Post 23. The description in 23 does not fit a joke, it is an elaborate excuse for something she has already explained.

You're scummy because I hate dogs o.O no other reason really, I'm certainly not going to vote you or push your lynch for such a crap reason, so be thankful you get a town read now.

We would like to say scum would never post something this bad, but we have seen her do it before as scum.

We in the puppymind discussed your meta during that last game. We are not particularly interested in discussing it at length here, as we have already done so in Reverse Mafia.

Sixty - who made the case in Post 79 ? Please and thank you.

The Euro-puppy. Its bark has a bit of an accent.

Sixty how do you flip off absta and to piggy like that. You gave multiple reasons on absta so it feels strange to drop off like that in the next post.

We were voting absta101 to see who would switch wagons if we did that. There were several voices raised against absta101 yet no votes going ----> that way, so we were checking who felt happy jumping off Piggy and onto someone else who was gathering suspicion. Not much came of it.

We don't follow Thor's vote on Cerulean. The "meta" fixation ITT is not very interesting to this half, at least, so maybe there's some context that I'm totally missing, but etc.

You're trying to jump on someone, howl and whine.

Actually, that's more describing us. uo.ou

Actually, now that I think about it, it might be worth a look to see if Thor665 gets into ego wars as scum.

He does, it is a null tell.

[Sixty]

Still, this quoted bit - kind of a reach, isn't it?

In the sense of scumPig twirling her mustache and hatching an evil plot to

bring out the comfy chair

in the early pages, yes. In terms of showing it as a facile excuse for her actions, no.

If you'd just called it a bad excuse I'd be more on a wavelength with you.
But you said 'why would scum want people to feel comfortable' which means you *were* applying the mustache twirl to her.
Discuss.

I'm pretty sure it was "why would Town want people to feel comfortable", which means it's useless at best and transparently false at worst.

Assuming you were scumhunting.

1)

Why would scum move from Piggy to absta?

2)

What made you suspect scum were on Piggy's waggon?

3)

What do the results of your 'investigation' tell you?

1) A chance to look active and push a counterwagon for <reason to be read into>.
2) Answering your question as posed, sheer probability suggests itself. Disregarding what specifically you asked, we wanted to see who would jump and why, not specifically drain votes from PiggyGal.
3) The mod PMd us with a Guilty, but we might be Insane, so etc. Looking at the thread, it more or less didn't get acknowledged - Thor didn't say a word, Voidedmafia and PiggyGal mentioned absta but didn't do anything, Cerulean didn't try to tubthump on the wagon, thus frankly as far as reactions go nothing happened.

That is the point on absta. Do I have to explain how similar play in two games with one being town and then attacking him for an aspect in a previous town game is bad? Honestly haven't read or experienced his scum play

but when the argument is on something he's done as town and that the way he did this game to get a town read quickly look town

I'll think of him as town.

Run that last part by us again.

By the by, please stop disgracing metamancy as a science with posts like 182.

Bleh...I don't like the case. I think it reads intensely shallow, but I'm going to comment on it specifically in a bit, and I wanted you to say something more than "seems cool Brainy smurf". As I was trying to round out my read on you as well.

This we

must

see. ...eventually, after you’re done stirring up enmity

ponies

.

2. Is a really good way of throwing in his opinion that the Cerulean/Thor argument is town/town without explicitly saying so. And which is a really good way of covering a scum buddy's back when they're getting attacked without explicitly doing it. And which is a really good way of going back and saying oh hey we weren't buddies because I just said he sooounds like town, not that he is town... without explicitly stating that.

So then Equinox answered Cerulean's inquiry about why he had a town read on Thor, but Cerulean never acknowledged Equinox's explanation (even though he specifically probed for it). Which in my opinion is a great way of prodding a scum buddy to maybe explain something a little bit that they think they might be missing or looking bad on. And not answering that commentary is a good way of getting it out there and dropping it without buddying up. Considering its about Thor, who in my opinion is pretty much the "lead town" player, it would be great for both Cerulean and Equinox if they were scum to look and get that player on their side. Or at least not against them. And also considering Cerulean's been doing quite a bit of playing nice with Thor.

Are you entertaining the notion that this happened?

JesseShef, where precisely are you getting the notion that absta is clueless

and

Town?

I'm not sure if i prefer being thought of as pedantic or an overbearing, crazy bitch.

Hey, we

resemble

that remark.

[Sixty]

@Soul: This head prefers not to discuss meta since 1) it's kind of rude (and we

know

rude), 2) it stops people from being easily read by us, and 3) people don't seem to have a clue what to do with it anyway. Like, we are

both

headdesking in unison over here. Suffice to say we’ve seen these reasonless reads and f(l)ailing before.

We don’t see a reason to have absta explain himself. We’ve seen his explanation and we’ve seen your/JesseShef’s conclusion, and we don’t buy any of it. Hence the question. How can you turn absta’s misstep into the game a Town-tell? Right now you’re saying “he’s playing like absta”. Which, well, I guess that’s better than what people say about either of us most games, but etc..

I will say the most interesting bit of association is the number of people who can just ignore sixty without being pushed to comment on them.

Okay. This game is turning into a fondue festival of cheese.

On one hand we have Tammulean who is shamelessly putting her shoulders against PiggyGal (who for her part doesn’t seem to mind) while pretty much pushing a puppylynch like seemingly everyone these days. On the other hand we have JesseShef throwing himself in front of absta for reasons we’ll surely understand eventually. Now we have you blatantly stealing a line from the Cerulean slot. I wonder what brought that about? It sounds like you have this game-long resentment against us that has been stewing since shortly after you began post 197.

Really?

@Cerulean: Whenever you’re ready. We've also heard good recommendations about calling you; something about a good time.

[Sixty]

Tammy: Stop bitching at others please and thank you. Between Thor and Jesse, you're already making this game a painful drag. It's one thing to try and rile people up to figure out alignments, but at this stage it feels like you're pointlessly hamming it up.

[Sixty]

Did you see that v/la post

[from Soul2277]

? Holy crap guys! Scum has seriously been caught!

(jk UNVOTE: )
I understand N bandwagoning, he likes bandwagons, but Equinox didn't even put a silly sentance in there to make me feel better about being brought to L-2 on page 1
VOTE: Equinox
Clearly a lazy band-wagoning scum looking for an easy lynch.

Because going v/la is a null tell, so I was joking about it being a scummy-as-hell tell ^.^

(seriously though, votes on Equinox are good votes)

Here we see that the V/LA thing was a joke (she was voting Soul2277 as RVS), and she shifts to Equinox.

I brought up the v/la as a means to end my RVS while letting things stay in RVS because I know things are going to stay in RVS even when things actually get serious. It happens. It's why I don't like RVS, because even when it obviously come to an end, new players that haven't posted yet still look to RVS to join in the conversation - so it was a way to let the other 5ish people come in without feeling the need to awkwardly stay in RVS - call my logic flawed, but when you know something is inevitable, it's best just to give in and join their side - which I get a feeling will become my lynch very soon :/

This no longer sounds like a joke; she changed her story. If it was a joke, why a) so much explanation and b) is she trying to make others comfortable? There is no Town motivation in helping others find their feet during RVS.

Where is the scum motivation. I mean I hate to be a drag and make this game a pain in the ass, and bitch at you about it, but this is really weak.

The "joke" answer wasn't cutting it, so a substitute reasoning had to come out. That's the simple version.

<stuff>

Okay, so here is where I really start to have a big problem with this case. You say that meta was a part of your case. I'm assuming you're referring to reversed mafia are you not? I followed that game and re-red your case when you brought it up. In that case you said that piggy was not competent at either alignment. So, you acknowledge that as town she's not competent, and then you chide her for not deconstructing her wagon immediately, which is something that I've only rarely seen in a game, even though she did single out one person for being scum on her wagon and give a reason why. As I said to voided, it was flimsy, but it was still a reason. You're acting like there is none, and that you're familiar with her meta, which according to you is incompetent but then expecting her to be competent.

(Did we really say that fifth sentence?)

The thing that's getting left out here is that the pig didn't even try. Her response to her wagon is "oh there's at least one scum on it!" which etc. I mean seriously, we just got out of a game with Pig-scum, and we're seeing all the same things again. We did look at her Town game and it was... well, better. Since we can actually

kill

people this time instead of just ignoring them, etc.

Feel free to bitch at me all you want and make it perfectly clear how much you'd prefer it if I weren't in the game. It's not going to change my opinion of your alignment. Seeing you act like town, interested in finding mafia, is what I'm looking for. That I'm not seeing.

Out of curiosity, have you looked at anything else?

I don't get the point. What is the scum motivation to give a scum read to Thor?

Changing the subject.

------

Sixty does that mean the other head is the meta using head. Saying I don't like to use

[meta]

@Soul: This head prefers not to

discuss

meta

Do go on.

We suppose that vote is one way to answer the questions we posed toward you.

As for setup analysis, we don’t have anything to point out at this time. We do have something to point out, but not now.

[Sixty]

Tammy, let's see if I can get my point across.

You came into this game and started being hostile toward Thor and toward Jesse. You were not being assertive, you were being insulting, which becomes even more jarring when you explain your hydra partner's reaction to an insult as a natural reaction. As I said before, it's one thing to try and rile players up for reactions. But scum will also be offended over matters that have nothing to do with alignment. If you call someone stupid, if you act condescendingly toward someone--people will be irked no matter their alignment. As scumhunting tools go, it's quite flawed and damages the game in general because it tends to spill all over the thread.

I didn't say anything as you pushed first Thor and then Jesse, because I know that's what you do and that it can help you read people. However, I also know that you can put up an hostile front as scum, whether or not it's real anger. My issue is that I don't see you taking any definite conclusions from these back and forths. I see you arguing just to argue, and that is a scummy behavior and makes the game unfun for everyone.

I've been restraining myself. My hydra partner is one of my favorite players, and it's fun to play the puppy persona, so I'm trying to focus on the positive aspects of this game. There was no word on my feelings about playing with you, so why do you feel the need to bring that up?

I'm not trying to be hostile, I'm trying to get you to please tone it down. SpyreX asked this of you on Maf.Maiden, you kept doing it--I don't know how effective this request is, but I know you

can

and have done it before, so please try to be less argumentative for argument's sake.

Let's see if I can illustrate what I'm talking about:

Thor - if you don't learn how to play nicely, I will sit you two on opposite sides of the room and take your hammer away from you. You say that my other head was reactively offensive to you, but you fail to acknowledge that you claimed that you were fitting him with a dunce cap. Thor, I expect more from you, you have two scummies and should know better

You were a bit insulting, and people don't like to be insulted.

[snip]

You were being a bit condescending, you know you were, if you're honest with yourself.

These were fine, and it shows you understand people don't like being insulted. They won't like it regardless of alignment.

Hey Thor! Hi! How ya doin? When you get done licking your little boy wounds, us grown ups are going to actually be looking for scum. Care to join us?

What is the newcomer going on about?

These two cross a line. Yes, they are not as aggressive as some other players, and they are not breaking any rules, but it's not helping. You're being demeaning.

I don't really care for the argument between Cerulean and Thor665, as it looks more to be out of ego than alignment.

Noting this for now.

You should! I'm sure it will be useful for the future.

This seems out of line, as I've seen you note things and make quote walls for future reference. Why does Jesse deserve this level of sarcasm?

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

Liked how Thor665 pressured PiggyGal15 earlier. There's also some notion about Thor665 maybe not getting into an ego war because why take offense at someone doing something silly when it doesn't concern him and those posts didn't come off contrived, but I think I need to verify that I'm not doing bogus psychoanalysis first.

Cerulean why didn't you respond to this answer to your question?

Oh gosh! I forgot my manners. Thank you equinox for answering my question.

What is the newcomer going on about?

I see you're going to be fun to play with. Although I can't possibly understand the superiority complex you seem to have taken upon yourself given your play so far in this game.

I'm

almost

always fun to play with. But you know what? You're cute. Tell you what...867-5309...shhh...don't tell anyone.

I don't have a superiority complex, but hmmm, let's *looks at the votes* you're not really one to talk when you're vote's sitting on town...for demonstrating a superiority complex? K.

Why are you being like this? It seems you have some sort of vendetta against Jesse. You've been demeaning toward him from the moment he started posting.

You're causing quote stripes of people lashing back and forth. That's not to say Jesse and Thor aren't guilty as well for returning the favor, but please--tone it down. It's not helping scumhunting. It makes me cringe when I read your posts. I have a Townread on you, but you're being actively detrimental to Town with these petty insults. You know I can go toe to toe with you, but I don't want that. I don't want a repeat of Maf.Maiden and ego tunnels. The catfights were so bad that they even got to Vi. I tend to devolve into helpless rage when I play with you or Amrun. I managed not to do it in my last game with Amrun, and from experience, I know you and I can interact like civilized people too.


As to what is actually important:

have

their reactions/tone (Thor and Jesse's), in these particular situations, affected your reads on them? How?

I know you can play as Town without being so hostile. A bit of snark is fine, but keep it moderate. It makes for a much more pleasant game and easier scumhunting. Please, Lyanna?


PEdit: Just in time, it seems. No, I wasn't trying to stir anything. Yes, that post was rather more brusque than I intended to. I've been on a short fuse tonight, and it was not your fault. I'm sorry. Please read this one instead.

As for the bit regarding PiggyGal/competence--we wrote the response together. It was more of a subtle remark from Vi on the fact that calling someone incompetent is rather mean. Which is true, but I tend to prefer brutal honesty myself.

[Sixty]

Empire, I don't think you understand what Jesse was talking about.

Jesse--the argument earlier was all Tammy, not Empire. They are pretty easy to tell apart. So no, he was not being hypocritical with saying he didn't want drama after just arguing with you--because that had not been Empire.

[Sixty]

Why are you buddying Jesse?

Calling you out on over-the-top aggression is not buddying. We are trying to understand your thought process in the interactions you are having and how fruitful you think they are. You still don't seem aware that you are in fact being insulting, but we will leave it to your other head to clue you into what you are doing.

Lastly other main point on sixty is do you follow their reason for voting absta (which they said didn't really reveal much reaction wise and I'd expect more there).

We answered this already:

Sixty how do you flip off absta and to piggy like that. You gave multiple reasons on absta so it feels strange to drop off like that in the next post.

We were voting absta101 to see who would switch wagons if we did that. There were several voices raised against absta101 yet no votes going ----> that way, so we were checking who felt happy jumping off Piggy and onto someone else who was gathering suspicion. Not much came of it.

Assuming you were scumhunting.

1)

Why would scum move from Piggy to absta?

2)

What made you suspect scum were on Piggy's waggon?

3)

What do the results of your 'investigation' tell you?

1) A chance to look active and push a counterwagon for <reason to be read into>.
2) Answering your question as posed, sheer probability suggests itself. Disregarding what specifically you asked, we wanted to see who would jump and why, not specifically drain votes from PiggyGal.
3) The mod PMd us with a Guilty, but we might be Insane, so etc. Looking at the thread, it more or less didn't get acknowledged - Thor didn't say a word, Voidedmafia and PiggyGal mentioned absta but didn't do anything, Cerulean didn't try to tubthump on the wagon, thus frankly as far as reactions go nothing happened.

This thread needs a comb over with a puppy brush. In the meantime, though, the puppy is very tired and needs sleep to grow.

[Sixty]

JesseShef - Yes, we get it, we're awesome. And incredibly cute. absta please.

Cempireulean - Oh good, another voice from that slot. Do answer our question from earlier.

Tammulean - Any time someone uses "buddying" as a term this puppyhalf takes it as a scum claim. That aside for a very brief second, this puppyhalf is quite positive no particularly good will toward Jesse was intended in that post and would love to know how that thought came about. (Cut by myself: etc.)

Soul - People making cases in good faith don't normally ignore the truth when it compromises their comfortable reality.

Lastly other main point on sixty is do you follow their reason for voting absta (which they said didn't really reveal much reaction wise and I'd expect more there).

Oh

do tell

. Go on. See what we did, and what we got, and show us the wonderful secrets we've been hiding. Preferably without lying.

This puppyhalf is seriously /)___(\ this close to barking orders and telling people to shut up and vote who we say to vote. It can only be good for getting the game to go someplace, not to mention everyone's ability to take giant mansions built from quote walls and mud on every page.

Thor seemed insulted I wasn't considering him the towniest person here.

We're insulted you don't consider

us

the Towniest puppy here. u u

[Sixty]

Since I had to stop and think about who you'd even push on - I actually think this is a good idea. Maybe you should shout out a top two scum reads? That would be sexy.

~bow chicka bow wow~

The truth is, at this point this puppyhalf wants to kill literally half the game. Indiscriminately. Devil take them all. And after said puppyhalf calms down a little, said puppyhalf

still

wants to fire blindly into the crowd of {Cerulean, absta, JesseShef, Soul, PiggyGal} just so that we can get somewhere and/or silence someone. Not that you couldn’t have figured that out from how these are the people the puppy is questioning/

RAGE

ing at.

Simply put,

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jesse
That post was just... horrid. Really really horrid. So there's 7 pages now, and all you're doing is reiterating what's already been said, just phrased slightly differently?
Love how you bring up me talking about RVS out of RVS almost double the posts later - while we've been out of RVS for quite some time. Very very interesting indeed.

That whole post looks like you're trying to be active while not really doing anything at all.

p-edit - the fact that you're still not saying what's worth noting in that quote just makes me all the more sure you just posted that to make yourself look busy and active.

Penn Jillette disapproves of this post, to say nothing of the "joke" turnaround.

Thor: What I didn’t see from absta is a hit of logic in "oh here, I can attack this or go with this and make it look credible". I just see a complete lack of inspiration for taking a solid direction. To me, that looks like he doesn’t know anyone’s alignment and is in general lost.

This is not actually garbage but something this

troper

puppyhalf disagrees with. Take him off the list.

This is also a nicer way of saying "we were trying to misslynch absta".

Assuming you were scumhunting. Why would scum move from Piggy to absta? What made you suspect scum were on Piggy's waggon?
What do the results of your 'investigation' tell you?

This is epic defamation with no resolution on his side and yet quite possibly more Townish than any of his posts since.

The other puppyhalf disagrees about absta. We've talked it over and this puppyhalf maintains etc..

This post owns.

This post is partisan b.s.. Cerulean are encouraging Piggy to vote Jesse, while voting us and opening the possibility of voting Voidedmafia themselves. While vote-hopping isn't scummy, we know that Empire, at least, finds casting such a wide net to be suspicious.

I believe I already responded to this.

And this is factually incorrect and at the recent forefront of a steady stream of terrible attempts to push on this slot.

Of the five, Soul frankly smurfs this puppyhalf off most.

Unvote: PiggyGal15
Vote: Soul2277

(L-5)

-----

Sixty: If you honestly think Cerulean is town, can you explain why? I did so about the player you’re voting for...

Cerulean's Townread came from the similarity in behavior between here and elsewhere re: Tammy. It's how Tammy scumhunts - needling players she is not familiar with for reactions. However, we still believe she is needlessly hamming it up, instead of directing it toward those she actually seems to suspect or doing something with the results. It seems belligerence for its own sake, and we know she can play the part as scum.
Tammulean has a scumread on Jesse from his first post, yet says we were not looking for motivations when we voted for Piggy. If she finds it Townish for Piggy (and themselves) to have a scumread and vote Jesse on his third post, why is Post 79 considered premature?

(Some hijacking of this post may have been done in preproduction.)

[Sixty]

Lastly other main point on sixty is do you follow their reason for voting absta (which they said didn't really reveal much reaction wise and I'd expect more there).

We're looking for

your

response, dahling.

PS: Vi, you're doing it again now.

Difference in motivation. However, seeing that link coming from you compels this puppyhalf to provide this.

We need to etc.

[Sixty]

...

That's interesting. Why haven't you been here the whole time?

[Sixty]

Focusing on the end part you're result was just lack of reaction and stopped there. If you're going to push another wagon to see responses and then not analyze the meaning of lack of response (or just say what that actually meant for him) then yes it looks fake.

Then do better. Please draw some (plausible, useful) conclusion from it.

Who says I haven't been here?

This puppyhalf does. Post 263 is easily the most interesting thing your slot has posted all game, and your slot has posted a lot of things this puppyhalf hasn't been interested in.

This puppyhalf would suggest not wasting your time, but aside from you not being likely to listen your conclusion should be morbidly fascinating.

[Sixty]

Multiple people mention him as scummy but not enough to swap over and only really do so when piggy is out. Conclusion ->

Trusted more then piggy,

but at the same time the general paranoia is a weak town tell considering I'd think someone would defend him more earlier if he was scum.

Maybe it's that this puppyhalf hasn't played Mafia in the last five minutes, but in which universe is this true?

This is both a stretch to consider true and useless if true.

There's a difference between expecting this hound to analyze our own gambit and expecting us to spin straw into gold.

-----

And how exactly is "interesting" supposed to be taken? Just looking at it on the surface makes me think it implies that 263 is the only post you've actually cared to look atin detail.

Hyperbolic, but essentially. This puppyhalf is playing on a time budget and has no will or interest to sift through the quote stripes and walls of hate.

To answer your question, "interesting" means much more likely to be Town, particularly if he delivers. It comes with a case that will be a waste of everyone's time at best, but see previous post etc.

-----

I suspect they may be suffering from a certain type of hydra syndrome

Woof.

[Sixty]

We need to etc.

Very much so. I'm going to take a short nap and then we'll see if we can go through the thread together. I have the impression that our reads aren't meshing, and in particular,

I

need to consolidate Townreads.

(Not so) Quick question: Empire, you've presented evidence of meta research in a Town game of yours. Have you ever done said research as scum? The only scum game I see of yours in MS is as Black Mask, and during the game, you claimed you wanted to do some research and couldn't do it due to the alted game. I believe you play in Westeros/elsewhere, correct? (Hydraing with Regfan and Tammy seems to point in this direction.) Westeros has alted games, but people can probably still figure out identities. Do you perform meta research there as Town and/or scum?

[Sixty]

Hey Thor. Is absta Town?

[Sixty]

...is that so.

[Sixty]

This is the part where we do something impossibly cool and turn the game around. ...hopefully.

Unvote: Soul2277
Vote to Hammer: Voidedmafia

[Sixty]

@Sicty - strategic lynch to avoid being top counter?

Shamelessly so.

[Sixty]

Sorry to disappoint, but that wasn't a scum claim in any way. We think we have this game under control and feel comfortable to lynch everyone who isn't part of the set.


Cerulean are obvTown; Empire was painfully different from this in Mafia in Triplicate, and the fact that Empire kept posting here while ignoring that game is already a marked difference, but I couldn't bring that up while that game was ongoing. Vi thought his "I'm doing meta research post Townish" because not many go to that effort as scum, and that was why this puppyhalf made the question about meta research in Post 288. In Mafia in Triplicate, he was more than willing to dump the effort on researching meta on me (who was an Innocent Child), without bothering to do it himself, and had a few "clairvoyant scum reads" (Namely that "lol, Tierce wouldn't be as elusive as scum, guys" one.) Empire's "I'm lazy as scum" meta is accurate.

“1) PiggyGal's description of her own meta is false. Meta was one of the main tools we used to read her as scum in xudeR aifaM esreveR. This might be obliviousness to her own meta, but we have trouble believing she really thinks her Town/scum meta is indistinguishable when she just came out of a game where she was pinned accurately as scum on meta.”

Not only is this a bad argument, it is a complete fucking lie. Take a look at Sixty’s ISO in Reverse Mafia Redux and do a CTRL + F search “Piggy”. You will eventually realize that their only mention of Piggy’s meta is in #383 where they acknowledge that PiggyGal isn’t competent as either alignment. Note that their first major case on Piggy comes in at #348, several pages into the game. SHE WAS NAILED AS SCUM ALMOST ENTIRELY FROM HER ACTIONS IN GAME – LITTLE TO NO META DISCUSSION. THEIR ONLY MENTION OF META HERE IS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT SHE IS “INCOMPETENT” AS BOTH ALIGNMENTS. WHY DID THEY THEN EXPECT SO MUCH MORE FROM HER IN THE EARLY PORTION OF THIS GAME?

This is false, though we cannot prove it without presenting IM records from Reverse. You'll see Vi described our meta analysis of Piggy as "we in the

puppymind

". We were analyzing Piggy's site presence and meta throughout a number of games, ongoing and finished (Dirty Dealing was one of them), but we did not bring it up much in the thread for reasons that included Vi not liking to discuss meta

and

, rather glaringly, the fact that we were using ongoing games. We could not present those in public, but we were using them to color our opinion of how her play matched/did not match throughout the site at the time. You will notice we call her out on not posting in Reverse; iirc, that was one of the rare situations in which we

did

bring it up in the thread.

I don't know if you have any intentions to use our Town meta as an hydra in your meta analysis, but that would seem to make more sense than just analyzing our Town games individually. We don't have scum meta yet, but you can peruse our Town games together.

Personally, I think that your meta on me is rather inaccurate, though it's more effort than anyone so far has applied to it. For example, in Chrono Trigger, I was accused of having shallow reads (and my slot was essentially lynched on that). Looking over it, for example, I now know how some of those reads were

painfully wrong

shallow indeed, especially when I was trying to apply weaker Town-player tells to players like Vi and Nuwen.

Chiding people for being lazy/playing badly--I do that as either alignment. The joke is that my Mafia MetaMafia alignments are Justice and Will.


Something else that has been cropping up in more than one post: we (in particular, I) don't think that Piggy's 'incompetence' is an alignment tell. I've said that she is that regardless of alignment. I'm sorry if it offends, but it's my opinion. The way I used that definition in Reverse was to argue against Thor's notion that derp = Town. Incompetent players can be scum or Town. The point is that I don't see the effort that Cerulean say she applied in her early posts; I don't expect Town-Piggy to be

competent

, I expect her to do more than a half-arsed attempt at

looking

Town. I'm the first to defend players if I think they are incompetent Town even if they are mislynches waiting to happen, but I don't think she is incompetent

Town

, I think she is scum who is hardly trying.

We do have something to point out, but not now.

We can do this now, and it's the main point of this post.

This game needs four Townies to be broken. As long as these Townies aren't lynched, we win. We have these four Townies already: Cerulean, absta, Thor and us.


Cerulean are Town by way of Empire. No matter what Tammy is doing, this is Empire's Town play; unless he did some ridiculous jump in scum proficiency here while ignoring his scum game in Mafia in Triplicate

at the same time

, he does not have the same alignment in both games.

@Jesse - Wtf is your problem? Stop defaming me.

Jesse was defending absta (even if it involved downplaying absta's skill). absta was apparently

angry

at being treated like he was stupid. I saw a similar situation happen in Destiny Mafia, with CNH, where DeasVail (half of that hydra) raged at someone (kanye, iirc) who was calling them Town

and

dumb.

Scum players who are not very experienced don't usually react this way. They don't flip out in rage at people who are defending them on account of stupidity. Town thinks they are right, and are the ones who won't be happy when being insulted in this particular situation, by people who are Townreading them. Town don't particularly care about being defended if that defense requires them being insulted.

Exhibit A as counterpoint:

._.
It's a difficult pick between being called scummy and trying too hard.

Note the lack of

object

here. I didn't lash out at Izzy, Quagmire, JDodge--they were defending me and calling my logic bad, but I just whined and moved on, without lashing out specifically at named people.

Vi wasn't sold on this Townread (and I seem to recall a game in which this failed me, but I can't remember which game that was, so etc.), but the notes I got tonight is that Vi thinks that the fakehammer gambit was Townish.

If absta is considerably more experienced that we are seeing him as, etc., but from my experience modding him a while back, he's not that familiar with playing in general, much less playing as scum.


Regarding Thor: we tend to always read him as scum. We didn't see the initial V/LA questioning on Piggy as something that made sense as Town, for example (since it was reading as a joke), but for once he's not doing what he's known for: push wagons on ridiculous reasoning. He is reading more grounded, more interested in things that actually matter. This could be an effect of our explanation for the scumread on him in Reverse Mafia (which included his (apparently null) tendency to argue 'just because'), it could be a conclusion from his "Awards and the Metagame" thread, could be something else entirely--the point is, he is not trying to twist words, he is not trying to roll in pointless arguments, he is playing in a straightforward manner that seems coherent. In addition, Thor is not openly trolling--he actually reads interested in scumhunting and genuinely interested on reading everyone else.

The main reservation we have about this Townread is that it's based on Thor not matching his usual play instead of doing something openly Townish. However, the point is that Thor tries to emulate his Town play as scum, so the meta divergence would make more sense to originate in a Town game instead of a scum one.


Bottom line: we have Townreads solid enough on these three that we are willing to lynch the rest and see how the dice fall. I would like to look again at the reactions to the hammer once we know Voided's flip.

[Sixty]

The fact that they claim to have a town-read on you but need meta proof from you rather than anyone else as Tammy points out is actually a relatively strong scum-tell as it means that really have no even somewhat decently strong town reads which I don't believe for a second coming from Tierce.

This is ridiculous. Townreads are the easiest thing to fabricate as scum when everyone else is Town--and you and I know quite well how to pick up on Towntells. We were trying to build solid Townreads that we could trust the game on without tipping our hand too soon. Same thing as in Reverse Mafia: we needed seven strong Townreads, so we focused on that and then went through the necessary flips.

If we are lynched, so be it--add Jesse to the list of people that must not be lynched (absta, Cerulean, Jesse, Thor), and flip the rest.

[Sixty]

And how were

[Cerulean]

not obv town before then? I realize you couldn't have spoken about the game but similar to tammy's early piggy thing you could have pushed them as town more without mentioning that (and with one of you being mod of the game means the reason I didn't know their alignment til game end doesn't work since Vi could just push ceru as obv town more when talking to tierce).

Excuse me here for a moment:
Hell no.

I had a scumread on Empire in Mafia in Triplicate, but I wouldn't promote a solid Townread here without making sure that he was scum there. He knew that I was Town (not just because he was scum, but because I was an Innocent Child), I didn't know his alignment. And what did you want Vi to do, compromise the integrity of the Micro game for the sake of this one by not explaining a read to me, when Cerulean weren't in any danger? We don't really play by gut, we like to explain reads to each other, and I'm the one who replaced out of a game (Chrono Trigger, incidentally) because I thought I had compromised information by a roundabout way. Going "oh I think they are Town" and not explaining why is not how we do things, and that would have been enough for me to feel iffy about the other game and consider it compromised. On the other side of the hydra, there is Vi, who iirc even refused to give my alignment to Quilford when he asked for it in the Dead QT of Maf.Maiden, for suspicion that Quilford wanted it for meta purposes based on ongoing games.

So no, not going to use mod-hidden information from "ongoing games in which one of us is

alive

" for meta purposes. If we talked about Dirty Dealing re: Piggy, it was because neither of us were involved in it, and we made sure to never make any of that info public where it could compromise the outcome of that game.

It's exactly the same situation when you account for the change in circumstances.

[Sixty]

You've literally ignored taking a stance on us despite the fact that you know my meta better than most and probably have a decent grasp of Faradays meta too (Though his trolling really is just him being a cunt).

I can't read Faraday worth a damn. Like Vi and SpyreX, he's one of those players I hope will die before I have to care about trying to wrap my mind around them. I have bad memories from the firm-to-death Townreads I had on Nuwen and Vi in Chrono Trigger; you can check Otherworld for how I dealt with Vi after that, and MLP Redemption for a downplayed version of that, iirc. And while I've skimmed some of your games I wasn't involved in, no, I don't have a particularly good ability of reading you, at least in early Days. Like Empire (and like me), you quickly lose motivation as scum, and that is one of my main tools in nailing such players. It is hard to muster motivation even when you know you need to. Having my four/five Townreads means I don't have to worry about you at all; it's Nightless, which means you won't die, which means you'll have plenty of opportunities to show you're actually working as Town; one mega post of reads isn't enough, but you'll either keep it up or not. Like with Vi, I assume you're Town and play early times accordingly--there will be chances for you to prove your mettle; the truth is that even as scum, you have difficulty

not

playing to a pro-Town agenda, so I don't worry overmuch.

And while I do still cling onto the little shred of hope that Voided will flip mafia it's very very unlikely to happen given his reaction towards the hammer and his posts after it and I think you'd know that so your 'want to look at reactions again once we know Voideds flip' comes across as incredibly fake. Not to mention the fact that you never took a stance whatsoever but randomly hammered Voided when there was pressure coming towards you for entirely self-preservation reasons and neither of you are bad enough players as town to know that random-hammering is a big no-go especially hammering someone you 'have no stance on' prior to it.

I'll let you in on a secret:

Fri 16 Nov 2012 07:15:20

I haven't revealed preliminary opinions on the reactions because I have hardly done more than skim through them (and your wall). There's no Night, I'm in no rush.

The hammer was very much not-random, though.

Vi gets so few chances to trollhammer.

We have our set of Townreads, we don't need the rest.

You seem to agree with our set of designated Townreads, so while you may disagree on the execution (i.e. our hammer), the plan itself should be reading sound. This setup only needs four people cleared as Town; if everyone agrees not to lynch those, the others can be lynched until we get two scum flips.

[Sixty]

I realize you couldn't have spoken about the game

This applies both to here and in the hydra itself. Considering piggy's essentially had a town case given for her in thread vi writing one without ever mentioning or hinting the other game is perfectly doable with 0 comprising of a game.

...Piggy? Weren't we talking about Cerulean? Or are we saying that Vi should have sold me a Townread on Cerulean by their case for Town-Piggy?

Look, the point is that Cerulean was never in any danger. We thought Tammy was hammering too much on the "rile people up for reactions" tell. Then Vi thought that Empire being interested on meta could be a sign of very clear Townieness. And I've just shown that

concurrent scum Empire

was quite lazy to produce capable reads. I can't see why he would be good scum here and not in Mafia in Triplicate when the games were happening at the same time, not with that difference in proficiency and willingness to do stuff. This means he's obvTown

now

, for

me

, when I have the full information, and Vi wouldn't have forced weaker Towntells on me to keep me off someone

we were not even voting

. There was no point, and being cagey and/or acting with confirmation bias regarding other aspects of Cerulean's play could have compromised my place in Mafia in Triplicate. End of story.

[Sixty]

Sixty you're getting lynched next. How does that make you

feel

?

Delighted!

We don't need to be alive to win this, and Vi won't be around much (if at all) for the next week plus. I'm obviously not happy, but I'm not about to throw a bitch fit in the thread, as that will only distract from what is important regarding Those Who Must Not Be Lynched. It's a Nightless game, so we can trust capable players (namely Tammy/Empire) to do the purging that needs to be done without dying halfway through. Don't forget our Townreads and carry on.

(Puppies are still better than Boring Ass Vanilla Cats.)

[Sixty]

Neither of you are this fucking bad.

No, we're not. In particular, we are not that bad

as scum

.
I'm hardly a good scum player, but you're saying that

both of us

would agree to a hammer that looked horribly scummy when we have enough skill to talk ourselves out of a lynch. Neither of us are stupid, but we are pragmatical.

I've done this dance before; I'm not interested in being mislynch bait throughout the whole game if I can have out early and still ensure a win. I really don't like being mislynched, but dead Townies still win with Town, and if removing distractions early helps, by all means.

What I

do

care about is whether or not you agree with our set of Townreads, because that will be crucial for a Town win. I want an answer to

that

, and if not, why. Do you think absta, Thor, Jesse are all Town?

[Sixty]

Do you want me to show you our hydra logs because I will do if it will stop you from acting all high and mighty like this.

That's against the rules, iirc.

Honestly this scenario is almost exactly like god damn dirty dealing where MoI was so convinced we were scum because we had a differing read on him.

*cough Chrono Trigger cough*

Your words about us being scum belies that you somehow "know" for a fact that Sixty is scum. You are tryin to fucking tie us to a sinking ship hence all of your twisting of words.

This is terrible. Faraday occasionally slips like that, but it's hardly a stretch to assume scum connections pre-flip. You're saying that having scum-scum reads is scummy and shows scum knowledge? You're essentially accusing Faraday of lining up lynches, without showing how he's doing it in a scummy manner.

[Sixty]

Being 'unconfident' in reading me is one thing that I can understand at times, not stating a read at all is a different story, you're saying you didn't mind my reads and thought process post as town / scum or that you disagreed / agreed with my points on others in the time you spent reading it? Also out of curiosity what scum games of mine have you read through and no being a SK sort of role in Vi's game doesn't count as scum.

I'm saying it looks honest enough, but that I haven't really pored over it yet. Will try to do that after the next sleep cycle. As for not stating a read at all... go skim Otherworld and the interaction between me and Vi there.

I count Maf.Maiden as a Town game for you--scum hit you for being Townish, you were collecting Townreads, you were scumhunting, it's Town enough for me.
I don't usually recall

games

in particular, as I go through periods in which I do some meta research for fun and those I don't touch other games at all. I tend to remember

events

(see the "reading for fun" business). Your scum games that I remember to a degree are DEFCON and MafiaScum Fantasy Camp. You were also scum in an hydra with CES? I can't find that game.

And while I very much understand the logic of "I have X town-reads, X correct town-reads alive at the end-game is autowin" you know very well that isn't how it works, it's not just correctly reading three other people as town that's needed, it's surviving or at least getting a solid fourth town-read, then it's making sure that everyone understands and agrees with all the town-reads and make sure they don't get overly paranoid of themselves.

There's a fourth Townread there who isn't us and you know it (also @Thor 462). That's why I'm not particularly bothered about being lynched.

I don't think the hammer was something that was 'non-random' or agreed upon but rather something that Vi did because he saw the no way to get around the meta-case. In fact I'll probably check your online activity around that time (Between Empires post and the hammer) because if I'm right you weren't online at all and I don't think Vi would random hammer there as town without confronting you but can see him doing so as scum very much. Think he did a similar thing in DEFCON? I might need to recheck that too.

Tierce, I checked the time difference thingy and Ceruleans cases were posted at 1AM on whatever time setting Faraday has put this on here with the hammer coming at 2AM which is 13-14 hours ago and it says that it's 3;30pm in Portugal now so if I have that all right it'd have been roughly 2am at the time unless my math is making me look dumb. I really don't think you'd have been online discussing 'okay quick hammer' there at all. Really think it was just a Vi alone decision.

It was 2 AM, yes. I was online, though busy elsewhere. (Can I present the timestamp of my reply to Xalxe's prod in Telephone Pictionary? It was just before the hammer, I was frolicking around in Photoshop for over an hour after that.) My sleep schedule is incredibly messed up, and if you look throughout the site you'll find evidence of me posting at odd hours on other days, so while I wasn't posting--I'm running out of games --yes, I was around, yes, I agreed to the hammer, and there was discussion via AIM and via GDocs/Drive/thingy.

[Sixty]

Oh, that was Revolution Mafia. Concision.

[Sixty]

:effort:

[Sixty]

In Reverse, we got called scummy for our plan, people waffled, and I don't recall impressively useful/alignment-accurate reactions from the plan presentation itself. Here we went the more drastic way. The puppy has a flair for the etc.

I want to analyze reactions, but sleep times now.