Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Thor665]

Do you have any experience besides reverse mafia to base that call on?
Also, how would you say I'm playing differently here than in Reverse Mafia/other game?

[PiggyGal15]

The motivation behind your posts here seems forced, like you're asking questions, but you don't really care about their answers.

My only scum games that I can link are already linked, but a good idea of what I'm like as town - this and this
I also have an example where I'm town and just never got into the swing of things too, but I'm pretending it never happened because it was so terrabad, so I'd prefer not to link it... if you must know, it's Open 454 JK9.

[Thor665]

The motivation behind your posts here seems forced, like you're asking questions, but you don't really care about their answers.

So I'm laid back because I don't seem to care about the answers to my questions?
How do you conclude that?

[Thor665]

@Piggy - do you have a town game where you were lynched?

[Sixty]

Did you see that v/la post

[from Soul2277]

? Holy crap guys! Scum has seriously been caught!

(jk UNVOTE: )
I understand N bandwagoning, he likes bandwagons, but Equinox didn't even put a silly sentance in there to make me feel better about being brought to L-2 on page 1
VOTE: Equinox
Clearly a lazy band-wagoning scum looking for an easy lynch.

Because going v/la is a null tell, so I was joking about it being a scummy-as-hell tell ^.^

(seriously though, votes on Equinox are good votes)

Here we see that the V/LA thing was a joke (she was voting Soul2277 as RVS), and she shifts to Equinox.

I brought up the v/la as a means to end my RVS while letting things stay in RVS because I know things are going to stay in RVS even when things actually get serious. It happens. It's why I don't like RVS, because even when it obviously come to an end, new players that haven't posted yet still look to RVS to join in the conversation - so it was a way to let the other 5ish people come in without feeling the need to awkwardly stay in RVS - call my logic flawed, but when you know something is inevitable, it's best just to give in and join their side - which I get a feeling will become my lynch very soon :/

This no longer sounds like a joke; she changed her story. If it was a joke, why a) so much explanation and b) is she trying to make others comfortable? There is no Town motivation in helping others find their feet during RVS.

D'aw <3 L-1 already? I feel da loves <3

My wagon is wonderful <3 I think there's at least one scum on it

No analysis; calling one scum on the wagon and not bothering to deconstruct it is a lazy attempt to show work. She is hoping the pressure will go away if she seems disinterested on the wagon, but she is not trying to scumhunt. This continues here:

Lawl, don't worry bout my meta, seriously, I can self meta for you right here - I'm a lazy-troll as town and a slightly-inclined-but-still-lazy-troll as scum, basically, there's no difference in my play (as of recent) and meta'ing me is just a waste of time.

[snip]

Voided's town, Thor's scaring me with his laid-backness, absta is just being scummy, and I still don't like dogs.

1) PiggyGal's description of her own meta is false. Meta was one of the main tools we used to read her as scum in xudeR aifaM esreveR. This might be obliviousness to her own meta, but we have trouble believing she really thinks her Town/scum meta is indistinguishable when she just came out of a game where she was pinned accurately as scum on meta.
2) absta101 is scummy, yet deserves no vote. She sees him gather suspicion, but is more concerned elsewhere. The question is where, which leads to:
3) Where is Equinox in this post?
4) Note that she is not analyzing her own wagon:

Vote Count

• PiggyGal15 (4)
  : Voidedmafia Thor665 N Equinox
  
• absta101 (2)
  : Cerulean Sixty
  
• Equinox (1)
  : PiggyGal15
  
• Not voting:
  JesseSheffield Soul2277 absta101

Deadline: Sun 25 Nov, 00:05 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2012-11-25 00:05:00)

)

With 10 alive it is 6 to lynch.

She starts with Voidedmafia and Thor, ignores N and Equinox, mentions absta and does nothing about it, and we are scummy in some undisclosed form. Why those four players in particular?

[Thor's]

laid backness scares me because since when are you so lax? o.O In fact, UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thor
call me paranoid, but you're posts are giving me scum chills.

No word on Equinox and no effective action regarding absta101 or us.

Unvote: absta101
Vote: PiggyGal15

(L-1)

[Thor665]

b) is she trying to make others comfortable? There is no Town motivation in helping others find their feet during RVS.

Someone is seeing what Thor is working at though

Still, this quoted bit - kind of a reach, isn't it?

[PiggyGal15]

Thor - why yes, I do
And I conclude that by... I don't even know how to explain... there's this little narrator in my head that reads posts, and it's reading yours incredibly uncaring and aloof - like your scum, and merely trying to get some town cred by asking some questions - you know, making yourself look busy while doing absolutely nothing.

Lol Sixty, you're barking up the wrong tree.
a) explanation was needed to fully answer the question of why I brought it up o.O
b) how is there no town motivation for not making others (chances are town) look fake-scummy by coming in awkwardly and getting a bucket load of suspicion?

Calling one scum on the wagon and not understanding how to deconstruct it is my attempt at being a better player.

1) For cereal? o.O No, I'm being legit here, how is there a difference between my town and scum meta? And if there is such an obvious difference that lead you to pin me accurately as scum, why are you having difficulty seeing I'm town?
2) yes, absta is being scummy, but in everyone's eyes, so am I, so that point is invalid to me
3) Equinox became a null read, but not unscummy enough for an unvote, not until my gut, heart, and brain urged me to switch to Thor
4) I'm trying man, I'm trying. That's what makes me so much more suspicious of Thor.

N is... I don't even know, he needs more posts. You're scummy because I hate dogs o.O no other reason really, I'm certainly not going to vote you or push your lynch for such a crap reason, so be thankful you get a town read now.

p-edit: Thor, are you trying to implying that I'm distracting town to make my scum partner look townier?

[Cerulean]

I'm in agreement with my other head that N looks town based on his piggy questioning. I don't agree with Thor that it was a misrep, a misinterpretation maybe but his motivation looked like genuinely trying to determine piggy's thought process.

Also piggy's Post 23 did come off contrived and a bit over explained for such a simple question; however a game piggy and I were in together just finished this morning, so now I know that piggy has a tendency to start her town games a bit awkwardly. Empire and I had looked at piggy's scum games, as I had been loosely following along with reversed anyway, and had read the game she was nominated for. But what I cared most about was the game that ended this morning. Post 20 reads really genuine though.

I hate the "for now" in absta's Post 25 . Trying to determine if it's personality though. Don't like how he unvotes without revoting, but his "what" in Post 35 reads fairly genuine.

Thor - Did you not notice that other head said she had a recently completed town game that he wanted to read of piggy's? That game just ended this afternoon.

Voided - you say there have Ben no attempts to find the scum on her wagon, but piggy did say in Post 16 who was scum on her wagon and why. It might be a little flimsy but it's still an attempt.

Thor - if you don't learn how to play nicely, I will sit you two on opposite sides of the room and take your hammer away from you. You say that my other head was reactively offensive to you, but you fail to acknowledge that you claimed that you were fitting him with a dunce cap. Thor, I expect more from you, you have two scummies and should know better

Also Thor regarding your question to piggy in Post 75 would you say your playstyle is largely different as town than scum?

Sixty - who made the case in Post 79 ? Please and thank you.

Strongest town read remains N. Leaning town on Piggy and Thor

but he has two scummies so I can't be sure

.

I really want to vote sixty right now as that case they just made looks pretty contrived and pushing for an easy mislynch. I need to talk to the other head about that though.

~Tammy

[Thor665]

p-edit: Thor, are you trying to implying that I'm distracting town to make my scum partner look townier?

I don't think I've even come close to saying this.

Also, I'm scum because you're reading my posts in a scummy sounding internal voice? Try reading them in Morgan Freeman's voice and get back to me.
Why not for my blatant quick wagon of you? Or does that not look scummy?

Thor - if you don't learn how to play nicely, I will sit you two on opposite sides of the room and take your hammer away from you. You say that my other head was reactively offensive to you, but you fail to acknowledge that you claimed that you were fitting him with a dunce cap. Thor, I expect more from you, you have two scummies and should know better

There is a difference between offense 'giving insult' and offense 'attacking' last I checked.
Are you denying the immediate attack to an otherwise normal question?

Also Thor regarding your question to piggy in Post 75 would you say your playstyle is largely different as town than scum?

Since I actively try to emulate my town play as scum - none that I am aware of...also none that anyone has ever been able to show me, because then I would have adjusted. I've never had to adjust.

Strongest town read remains N

Why?

[Cerulean]

Thor - if you don't learn how to play nicely, I will sit you two on opposite sides of the room and take your hammer away from you. You say that my other head was reactively offensive to you, but you fail to acknowledge that you claimed that you were fitting him with a dunce cap. Thor, I expect more from you, you have two scummies and should know better

There is a difference between offense 'giving insult' and offense 'attacking' last I checked.
Are you denying the immediate attack to an otherwise normal question?

I see someone who said they had read scum meta and had a town game they wanted to dig into, then you claim they weren't doing things properly because they were only reading scum games (even though they said they were going to read a town game) and that you were fitting them with a dunce cap. You were a bit insulting, and people don't like to be insulted. I see him reacting to that.

It wasn't a normal question, and I think if you read it objectively you'll see how you provoked him and how he responded to you in kind. You were being a bit condescending, you know you were, if you're honest with yourself.

Also Thor regarding your question to piggy in Post 75 would you say your playstyle is largely different as town than scum?

Since I actively try to emulate my town play as scum - none that I am aware of...also none that anyone has ever been able to show me, because then I would have adjusted. I've never had to adjust.

Then what's the point of the question?

Strongest town read remains N

Why?

And you prove once again that you're not reading entire posts. In the beginning I agreed with my other head about his line of questioning to piggy. It reads to us as genuinely trying to determine her thought process.

What do you think a out sixty's case on piggy?

[Thor665]

I see someone who said they had read scum meta and had a town game they wanted to dig into, then you claim they weren't doing things properly because they were only reading scum games (even though they said they were going to read a town game) and that you were fitting them with a dunce cap. You were a bit insulting, and people don't like to be insulted. I see him reacting to that.

It wasn't a normal question, and I think if you read it objectively you'll see how you provoked him and how he responded to you in kind. You were being a bit condescending, you know you were, if you're honest with yourself. ]/quote]
1. I was absolutely condescending.
2. You don't seem to grok what he was saying.

Your other head said he'd read two scum games and had a town game he was going to read.
And then said Piggy was playing like her scum meta.
Meta he couldn't possibly understand or make a call on until he had read town meta and compared it to the scum meta.
So...do you want to go back and read what I said again and ask why it was such an odd question to ask?

3. I may be being condescending again here, it's a character flaw I get when I'm right.

Then what's the point of the question?

It doesn't matter if I think it's even possible for Piggy to grok a meta difference with my play.
She *claims* she did so and therefore I want to understand what she's seeing so I can decide if it's valid town hunting for tells, or derp scum just tossing gak against a wall.
It's a pretty complicated and intense bit of scumhunting for motivations...y'know, that thing you think is a town tell when other people do it once but not when I do it constantly?

And you prove once again that you're not reading entire posts. In the beginning I agreed with my other head about his line of questioning to piggy. It reads to us as genuinely trying to determine her thought process.

I don't see it as any better than half a dozen other examples of the same thing thus far this game - why does it stick out as special to you?

What do you think a out sixty's case on piggy?

Speaking of not reading
I already said I liked it, but cited something I thought he was reaching on and asked for clarification.
You can find it easy enough - I quote him when I did it and did so shortly after he posted his case. Probably my very next post after his case, I'd wager.

[Thor665]

Well derp on me.

I say it's all still legible - so deal.

[Cerulean]

I'm going to respond here cuz it's easier.

Don't care if you're condescending to me...your big ego can talk to my big ego and have a party. I do know what he was saying because he talked to me about it. He read her scum meta, we both did, and he said it was similar. I told him that it was possible a game we were just in together was about to end and that she behaved similarly there too. It did end today, which is the game he wants to read, in which she was town.

Did you read what he said? It is why he said "suggests" because even though it was similar, I had pointed out a possible town game that showed a similarity of her behavior.

So, would you like to go back and read the part of the post you missed? Namely that he's planning on completing the task your chiding him for not doing and tht he made that clear?


If you believe your town and sum game are indistinguishable I'd like to know what purpose it serves to ask someone if they think you're playing any differently than you did in your other game.

Did you miss the part where I'm leaning town on you?

Because it did. Read genuine to me. Lots of people jumped on the wagon, but he seemed to try to determine her thought process.

Oh no, I read, I was hoping you'd go into a bit more detail about what you actually liked about it.

[Voidedmafia]

Voided - you say there have Ben no attempts to find the scum on her wagon, but piggy did say in Post 16 who was scum on her wagon and why. It might be a little flimsy but it's still an attempt.

Fine, there was an attempt in the early stages, but as I said, that's pretty much all she tries prior to me saying she hasn't done anything. Now, I'm not trying to say that my attack in that regard spurred her to post (though it'd be slightly funny and more incriminating for her if that's true), but any good analysis (or attempted analysis) is still hard to find there.

[Cerulean]

Voided - what do you think about sixty's case on piggy?

[Soul2277]

Sixty you said you caught piggy with meta. At the same time what is her meta from your point of view since that isn't explained by you at all? Thor I know you've played reverse mafia and do you not see a difference between her more detailed self now and then.

I've already seen piggy link precinct mafia and at the same time her play reminds me of her town self. Lazy is something I've heard her say enough times as town (best example is I don't like reading long posts right now or something similar). That and she posts longer as town (I know she's said the opposite before, but experience shows she does right now).

Thor looks normal.

Cerulean why meta search piggy, but not absta who you're voting right now? Artemis Fowl micro would be a start. It'd also show similar play in just acting. Beyond that they look fine in their sixty questioning along with the current back and forth with thor. They also got the same idea I have on n and I agree with them there. Sixty how do you flip off absta and to piggy like that. You gave multiple reasons on absta so it feels strange to drop off like that in the next post.

Equinox feels weak. Vote absta then go back off quickly without really explaining why (yummy isn't a reason) and the way he's treated just getting her to L-1 combined with that makes it feel worse.

Voided's 60 along with the following post feels like a bigger absta scum read while still calling piggy a good wagon and staying on her without really explaining why she's a better wagon.

Seeing two scum leans pushing absta also makes him feel more likely town so read wise voided/sixty/equinox all have scum leans. Ceru is a weak town read, thor normal, n/absta/piggy town read. Piggy I would still like you to continue on who you think is scum on your wagon (and why at least 1).

Lastly I'll talk with OS later when he finishes V/la more on reads. Don't want to vote until he shows up.

P-edit: Voided can you explain why piggy is scummier then absta (and how she compares to dirty dealing mafia where she was town)?

~Mehdi

[Cerulean]

Voided - you say there have Ben no attempts to find the scum on her wagon, but piggy did say in Post 16 who was scum on her wagon and why. It might be a little flimsy but it's still an attempt.

Fine, there was an attempt in the early stages, but as I said, that's pretty much all she tries prior to me saying she hasn't done anything. Now, I'm not trying to say that my attack in that regard spurred her to post (though it'd be slightly funny and more incriminating for her if that's true), but any good analysis (or attempted analysis) is still hard to find there.

You seem a little more uptight than I'm used to.

[Cerulean]

Cerulean why meta search piggy, but not absta who you're voting right now? Artemis Fowl micro would be a start. It'd also show similar play in just acting.i

Piggy was a topic of conversation because we'd both read a scum game of hers and had eh feelings about her early posts. I'd also played with piggy in the game that just ended, which is the only type of meta I really take seriously. But I'm sure other head will research absta's meta in time.

[Soul2277]

You were already in that game so how did it not affect your read more before it ended. While you couldn't have referred to it saying the wagon is fine when you knew she played similar already feels off. That and signing posts a bit would help me keep track of you two (I'd ask sixty but I doubt they'd want to).

~Mehdi

[Cerulean]

I didn't know her alignment in that game until this afternoon. We were not spoiled in the qt, so I couldn't be sure she was town. So, while we discussed this game and talked about piggy, I told him that there was a possibility it was matching her town game but wouldn't know for sure until this game ended.

~Tammy (it's been Tammy since my first signed post this evening.)

[Thor665]

Did you read what he said? It is why he said "suggests" because even though it was similar, I had pointed out a possible town game that showed a similarity of her behavior.

I personally think you're trying to get me to put more meaning into that 'suggests' than there really is.
Counter question, if by 'suggests' he means 'We have yet to have done anything to make the read legit' why even mention it at all?

So, would you like to go back and read the part of the post you missed? Namely that he's planning on completing the task your chiding him for not doing and tht he made that clear?

If you believe your town and sum game are indistinguishable I'd like to know what purpose it serves to ask someone if they think you're playing any differently than you did in your other game.

I already answered this - what part didn't you grok?

Did you miss the part where I'm leaning town on you?

And less than N, yes.

Oh no, I read, I was hoping you'd go into a bit more detail about what you actually liked about it.

I actually accused him of sheeping me slightly, so...?

[Thor665]

I didn't know her alignment in that game until this afternoon. We were not spoiled in the qt, so I couldn't be sure she was town. So, while we discussed this game and talked about piggy, I told him that there was a possibility it was matching her town game but wouldn't know for sure until this game ended.

Why didn't he say that then?

Unvote: Piggy
Vote: Cerulean

[Thor665]

@Soul - oh, by the way, thanks for giving me a new 'Thor is Thor' call. 'Thor is normal' I like it because it's the same thing yet amusingly different.

[Cerulean]

Thor - you're vote is bad.

He said he had a town game he wanted to dig into in Post 64. That is the recently completed town game he references that he wants to dig into.

Please read.

[Thor665]

Link the game pl0x.