Open 474 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over!

[goodmorning]

That's a neat little rule there, saves us all the trouble of pointing that sort of thing out.

At any rate, it's 4:30 am right now, so I've little to say other than to randomly

VOTE: HD

because hello there.

[goodmorning]

Whoops, have I been ignoring something? Alright, back to this game then. Um.

The KX point was weird, because it didn't really strike me as the sort of thing a scummy player would say. Awkward, yes. Scummy, no.
Seems a bit wishy-washy though. Conceded too much too early in 42: "Though I will confess upon re-reading it, I found it scummy myself." But leaning unconfident Town at the moment. Not seeing this as particularly overemotional like Jacob does.

The serra point is a bit "what?" inspiring but overall seems to be something of a valid question if it is referring to Klick's playstyle in general rather than here in specific.
Clarification from the author?

As to Jacob's thing on flips in ongoing games, this post gets into something similar, which is how to address people lurking without mentioning ongoing games they're unlurking in. It's a letter vs. spirit of the law issue. YMMMV _{(Your Mod Mileage May Vary)}

I'm not liking the seemingly random votes drifting onto HD here, he's looking pretty Town so far and I am vaguely inclined to wonder whether KX or Nic knew precisely what they were doing.

UNVOTE: HD

There are two players who have yet to post. One of them, I am assuming, has still not confirmed. The other...
He has no excuse for lurking right now. Therefore,

VOTE: Ven

If you are out there, stop being out there and be in here instead.

P-EDIT: Ninja'd, but my vote will stay on Ven because he failed to post for so long, and because a vote on an unconfirmed will do no good as they shan't see it. Also seconding HD on 59.

[goodmorning]

What I am likely to do is not scum slip, but instead change opinions and/or make mistakes. These do not make one scum; They make one human.

Changing opinions, as long as it's not a total and sudden 180, is a pretty Town thing to do if you ask me.

goodmorning out of the now 12 who have posted who's actually scummy?
~M

I'm not sure. You'll know when I've found it though. I've seen a few little things, but it all still adds up to Null.

This Ven thing is interesting, but I'm withholding a value judgement on it until it plays out a bit more.

@ newest Newbie. Spence. Look. Look. I'm going to say this, because probably nobody else will: everyone would say "I am Town" if they were going to answer, which they aren't because it is pointless because everyone would say they are Town. No-one will have a reason for saying so, either. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the site meta, so I'd suggest you glance over a game or two in your spare time. It'll really help you out.

@HD on the serra point: I dunno, people sometimes just forget to vote. This stage of the game, I'm not sure I'm buying a case here.

[goodmorning]

Wait wait wait.
Wait.
If I thought he was Null...
Does that make him Null?!?!?

what is this i don't even...

[goodmorning]

@HD: Why do you think the hydra is Town?

@KX: Would you agree that knowledge of one's playstyle means it is pretty useless for you to tell us about?

@Nic: Are you sheeping me or someone else?

@CD: What do you think of AA9?

@AA9: What do you think of Josh?

[goodmorning]

@Josh: why are you being wishy-washy?
@Ven: why are you being wishy-washy?
@hydra: cool, ok.
@CD: I kind of agree on the Josh thing, particularly on the speed, but I like my vote where it is for similar reasoning at the moment.

@ Everyone: Sorry I've been pretty inactive here, suffice it to say another of my games is "totes blowing up" but I'll get a reads list going in the morning because I'm going to bed right now.

P-Edit: Ugh, what. Fuck it, I'm going to bed. Nobody quicklynch anyone, alright? We need the frigging discussion time and I need to feel like I'm being useful.

[goodmorning]

Alright, I didn't wake up this morning when I was supposed to and I don't have a super duper huge amount of time now. Here is my readslist, I'll get into reasoning later tonight or tomorrow first thing.

Towniest-leaning

HD
CD
serra
KX
Jacob

Null

Klick
Spence
hydra

Null

AA9
Nic
Josh
Ven

Scummiest-leaning

[goodmorning]

WALL POST AHOY
Here's the expanded list I promised I'd do before now.

Towniest
HD- Posts a lot. This is something that could go either way, as effort does not correlate with alignment, but what he's putting in is pretty constructive. I would point in particular to his feelings on the Josh wagon. 215 and 216 especially are deliciously Town. 267 and 268 are quite alright too.
He does do some flip-flopping early on, but that's not necessarily unusual for early D1.
Only post of his I'm kinda iffy on is 262.
And Happy Birthday as well.

CD- 67 looks Town, I don't see scum making a huge deal out of something weird like that. 147 is good, as is 158. 158 in particular is sort of an interesting way to go about scumhunting. 205 is pretty Town, too. 218 is a little strange, but he's another one I'm reading pretty Town.

KX- I actually moved him up a jot. Despite the ridiculous "this is how I play" diatribe, I think most of his stuff is pretty Town. Honestly, guy, your posts do read kind of emotional, but I think that's just your writing style. 163 is one of the most real reads lists I've seen. But yeah. Reason he ranks behind the other two is because he spent

so long

talking about himself rather than scumhunting.

Also, to add on, how is putting effort in a town thing? As far as I know, all commitment and putting time into a game means it that you want to win.

QFT.

serra- Honestly I'm getting a "paranoid Town" impression from him. I like 68 and 78. I like 103. 168 looks like a genuine reads list, but he doesn't read Josh in it, so that's a little scummy. 211 is Townish to me. 259 and 263 (especially 263) I also like. Overall, 168 sets off some serious alarms, and his playstyle is a little weird to me, but I'm still inclined to lean Town here.

Jacob- Hasn't posted very much content, and I disagree with 164's argument. Slight Town for 188 and 194.

Klick- He's not posted much actual content either, but 134 strikes me as incredibly Town. Enough to give me a very slight Town here.

Spence- Null. He's posted once.

hydra- Null for now, as I'm not sure what approach I want to take as far as reading them goes. Was going to put a snap judgement here, but I'm just not sure. Their postings are pretty Town, but they give me a weird feeling and I just don't know whether it's scummy or just Hydra-y.

AA9- Vague Scumlean. She seems to assert some really random stuff, but it could just be the language thing. Also calls KX scummy, then reverts to Null when the wagon shuts down. I don't think I'd put money on it, but she's a bit meh.

Nic - Has posted very little, and most of that is sheeping. 201, though, I really like, so he's definitely one I'm going to be watching for further developments.

Ven- I've moved him up a slot. He starts off a lot more defensive than he really needs to. I think another scummy thing is that he's swayed a lot by other people's opinions. And he doesn't have any posts that strike me as super duper Townish like Nic either.

Josh- Post 69... what? NOPE. For the most part his posts are really self-contained, and there's not much involvement in or commentary on big stuff that happens in the game. And 175 is awfully quick to unvote. Not wishy-washy though, I'm not really sure where that came from. And NO, THAT LOGIC WAS NOT REALLY THAT LOGICAL. EFFORT DOES NOT CORRELATE WITH ALIGNMENT. (Third time that's come up in this post, so I wanted to be VERY CLEAR about my opinion on this OBVIOUSLY by SHOUTING.)
Scummiest

I'd vote Josh, but we need more discussion time before anyone gets lynched. I'll stay on Ven for now, but I don't find him as wholly scummy as I thought I did.

[goodmorning]

Another person i am concerned about is Good Morning, He agrees with everyone about Josh being scum but actually didn't vote him, and his reads on others didn't sit well as posted.

Of course I didn't vote him, as my vote would have been the hammer. This Day needs to be longer than a few days, I think.
What other reads of mine do you not like, other than the one on yourself?

goodmorning, what did you mean by AA9 asserting some really random stuff? It's definitely not a language thing.

For a start, how about the assertion she made that I am responding to here? That my not voting for Josh was scummy because I think he's scummy?
Only she keeps ignoring facts and making up facts to suit herself, like she's not really reading the game and has already decided who is what role? Stuff that's making her move further down my reads list? Stuff like that. I'll look up more if you like, but this should suffice for now.

Also, now that he's not at L-1,

Vote: Josh

@HD: Your case is interesting. That said, post 85 was a joke post. It was not an actual vote for Klick because he was already voting for Klick.

[goodmorning]

Except the assertion up there came after my question. I see where you're coming from with your criticism of 294, but I was wondering what you based your earlier read on.

Yeah, I was afraid you'd say that. I'll go find it. Emphasis mine.

Wait, so you’re saying that you Trust HD and you don’t him too. And If I understood you correctly… your play style is mainly trusting him and playing for him too is your play style. That’s awfully confusing!!! Look,

I am happy that you found someone to put your faith blindly and believe them as townie and trust them and not trust them at the same time but this is not helping anyone.

A lot of what she says to KX in particular is the same way, and so is what she says about Josh here:

Josh is a person i am bit concerned about, He randomly votes me first and after 3 pages laters he made another posting saying that "every body is arguing over nothing" and later he gives bit lecture to KX , and right after he votex KX. Over all 7 pages he has been nothing but "Null"
I don't know Josh before neither i have ever played with him

I am wondering if this is how he play or he is scum and trying to avoid facing the game?

Unvote

VOTE: Josh

(I'd also call that a bit of an OMGUS vote. On page 7.)

And what she says to me later on is like that, and I'm sure that if she'd actually interact with other players we'd see it there too.

[goodmorning]

Oh, and
@HD: Very true. Just wanted to clear that up.

[goodmorning]

She makes kind of a big deal out of his RVS on her. Like, mentioning it at all in that context is kinda ridiculous.

[goodmorning]

I'd been waiting to vote him for a while, as my top scumread, but didn't want a lynch before it was necessary. I didn't even notice he was inactive at that point.
That said, you're here now, and I think you'll be good for discussion. I'll back off for the time being to re-evaluate. My vote does little good on a replacement.

Unvote

The weird feelings on hydra are because they're a hydra and I'm still not sure what to do with them.
The weird feelings on AA9 are there, but she's not posted since I mentioned my reasoning. No new info to evaluate against, no new mentions.
I also (in my reads post) mentioned my weird feelings on Nic - in fact, I believe I ranked him scummier than both the hydra and AA9, yet you ignore him. Why?

Vote: AA9

[goodmorning]

1. That's a list ranked from Towniest to Scummiest. He's ranked third scummiest there.

2. I said I liked one of his posts. ONE. The rest of them I don't find Townish. Please stop misrepresenting me.

[goodmorning]

2. I said I liked one of his posts. ONE. The rest of them I don't find Townish. Please stop misrepresenting me.

How can I misrepresent what you never said? Your only comment on his substantive posting (which, yes, was Post 201) was that you liked it.
You never said that you don't find the rest of his posts townish.

It's the implication when you rank someone third scummiest that you "don't find... [their] posts townish".

Nic - Has posted very little, and most of that is sheeping. 201, though, I really like, so he's definitely one I'm going to be watching for further developments.

Do you think sheeping can never be town?

I think it's not usually Town.

goodmorning reaffirming my heavy scum read on her with the whole unvoting the replacement thing and then voting another lurker.

Sorry the people I think are scummy keep running away. MY BAD, YO.
Also, you call KX's unvote "silly" but mine "scummy". Why the difference?

Goodmorning for starting a stream of anti-town posts.

Pics or it didn't happen

OK, where? You're making a pretty brazen assertion here sans evidence.

[goodmorning]

HAHAHA 4 pages since this morning? Good one, guys. Wait, seriously?

Goodmorning for starting a stream of anti-town posts.

Pics or it didn't happen

OK, where? You're making a pretty brazen assertion here sans evidence.

Answer this please.

Okay, since you are insisting that your list of reads were in hard rank order, and Nic was indeed your third scummiest read..
...why are you now voting your fourth scummiest read instead of your third scummiest? Or second? (Josh/I was your scummiest read)
Also, please show me the exact posts that were made that led to you deciding to vote AA9 over your scummier reads Nik and Ven.
And another also, what do you think about the fact that two of your scum reads (Nic and Ven) were on the same wagon you were on until just recently?

Past tense is the key there. AA9's random assumptions and apparent lack of attentiveness to actual things going on in the game led me to push her two spots down the list. She is now at the bottom, as replacement-you is in replacement purgatory for a little while. So she is my scummiest read as of now.
The actual posts are the ones I pointed out in the 330s I think. My last posts before you replaced in. And they are no longer scummier reads because of those posts.
I think that scumreads (on D1 especially) are completely independent from each other. If some of my scumreads are voting some of my other scumreads, fine. I'll sort it out D3 or D4 (assuming I live so long) when speculation on teams can really come to the forefront.

GM... initially seems nice and all with KX and agreed with everyone that Josh is being odd and stuff, but actually didn't vote him. when I asked him reason for not voting Josh, His response doesn't seem genuine, His responded saying that he want to give benefit of doubt and rather want the day extended, if you feel someone scum it shouldn't basically stop you voting but that is not something that worried me about him right now, what worries me that, He voted Josh after everyone started his odd behavior of not voting Josh, that's a scary attitude.

1. I am a girl. That information is right under the picture of the cat beside all of my posts.
2. WHO WANTS A HAMMER LESS THAN A WEEK INTO D1???
3. I VOTED HIM BECAUSE HE WAS MY TOP SCUMREAD. YOU UNVOTED, AND THEREFORE I COULD VOTE HIM WITHOUT PREMATURELY ENDING THE DAY.
4. IF I WRITE IN CAPITALS WILL YOU ACTUALLY READ WHAT I AM SAYING, OR WILL YOU STILL IGNORE IT AND MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO? I'm willing to make some allowances for language, but this is just ridiculous.

Also, now that he's not at L-1,

Vote: Josh

Why would you put an inactive player back up to L-1? You didn't want to lynch him before, and you can't add pressure to a nobody.

Has been discussed, but
1. Didn't realize he was inactive at the time.
2. Did want to lynch him, just didn't want the Day to end prematurely.

On a lighter note:

and what is surprising me is that how you don't see GM scummy, He has was doing nothing than just twisting the game.

QFLOL.

Even skimming, goodmorning is mentioned in like every post

It's physically impossible to forget she's in the game if you've read it

Also QFLOL.

[goodmorning]

Answer this please.

I already did.

If you had I wouldn't be asking you to.

Here is what I saw in GoodMorning posts. Firstly,

She had no opinion on Josh, she just agreed with everyone.

I might have buy her reason for not voting if she actually have had any reasons except that she pick an easy way to show everyone that she is side with everyone on suspecting Josh , that was more like she was keeping her options to jump in Josh’s wagon

, I am also one of them who highly suspects Josh and I still do but Good Morning’s accusation doesn’t seem genuine and more over when I pointed them,

she started calling me scum instead of defending herself, that was the counter attack.

Bold: HAHAHAHAHAHA Wait, wait, I'm going to respond to this a fourth time... Wait, no, I'm not. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Underline: My vote on him was mainly die to his unvote of KX in post 175. I believe that the reasons put forth by others (not involved, ignoring early wagons) were also good reasons to vote him, but the unvote was more compelling to me personally and, from what I've gone back and looked at, initially unique to my case.
Italics:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now,

She is calling bigger scum than Josh because I am being more vocal now.

It is okay to me that if others don’t see the GM’s scummy behaviour but this is extremely odd.

I know what is my role and her behaviour and response is not something that I can expect from a townie person.

Bold: No, I'm calling you bigger scum than Josh/Jennifer because I have temporarily removed that slot from my reads list owing to the replacement. THAT'S IT.

[goodmorning]

@GM

* Were there any posts by Josh after #175 (his last was #213) that contributed to your scum read on him?

210 in a very minor capacity as a "too little too late" sort of thing; he answers three questions and ignores the growing wagon on him completely.

* If you take both Josh & my posts together, where would you place my slot now?

I'm still not quite sure how I feel about your posts, to be honest. I do tend to take too long to make my mind up.

Side note: calling the hydra Town, after deliberation of about a billion years.

* Is it correct to state that your view is that AA9's actions made her become scummier in your eyes, and that's why she moved down the list, rather than you viewing Nic and Ven doing townier things and thus moving up your list?

That is correct.

[goodmorning]

- Goodmorning quotes the part of AA9's post calling Goodmorning out for not voting her scum read and votes Josh. Goodmorning does not quote or address the other part of AA9's same, short post which discussed why AA9 was unvoting Josh.

Because it didn't address me. I quote what I'm responding to.
Prods mean nothing to me, people get prodded and come back all the time, so I tend to assume that's the case. AA9 tends to say a lot of random crap, so I tend to skim unless I'm mentioned by name.

So in essence, Goodmorning's vote on Josh looks defensive, like she was trying to avoid looking scummy like AA9 suspected.

Is there anyone in this game who would worry about

AA9's

suspecting them? Please get real.

After Goodmorning unovted Josh, she voted for AA9 in post 351.
- Goodmorning said her reason for voting AA9 instead of Venrob or Nic was because AA9's scumminess moved her down GM's list of scum reads (rather than Nic & Ven doing towny things to move up her list)
- But an ISO of AA9 and GM doesn't show much from AA9 between the time GM posted her list of reads and GM voted AA9, and in fact GM mentions in her vote for AA9 that there was no new information to evaluate AA9 on, yet later says it was AA9's actions that brought her down the list.

She moved down my list prior to my vote; your slot was still scummiest at that time. Saying there was no new info was in response to your 349, in which you tried to assert that I wasn't exploring my weird feelings on people since 271. AA9 did not post between 271 and 351.

Goodmorning does mention in her post where she votes for Josh that AA9 "keeps ignoring facts and making up facts to suit herself, like she's not really reading the game and has already decided who is what role," but she hasn't called out Hydra lately who has done the same thing.

Really? I don't see that from them. Evidence?

@bork: You call 504 a good post? For shame.

[goodmorning]

I see. Yeah, 506 is some good advice.

Working on a case for this evening.

[goodmorning]

Ughhhh I hate making cases so much.

Tomorrow morning, I'll do it.

[goodmorning]

This game is intensely frustrating.

@CD: Opinions on Panzer? HD?
@hydra: Opinions on Jacob? bork?

[goodmorning]

I feel as though very little has been gained since they were subbed in other then some repetitive (and meaningless) arguments.

QFT.
Like a lot.


Seriously, Panzer. Seriously.
I think we understand what you're saying.
I think you're getting votes because

it's stupid

we

disagree

think what you're saying is scummy.

Vote: Panzer

You know what's more anti-Town than walls and cases?

EVERYTHING

STARTING MASSIVE STUPID ARGUMENTS THAT COMPLETELY DISTRACT THE TOWN.

Oh yeah, I WENT THERE.

[goodmorning]

Because your heads seem to be in the greatest disagreement on him, from what you've both mentioned in the past. Was looking for a little clarification as far as that goes, it's definitely something that interests me.

[goodmorning]

@Panzer: When you're done attacking playstyles can you actually post things that are relevant?

I disagree with 164 A LOT. I am not interested in "fitting in" with a Town that does not understand that effort does not correlate with alignment. And I've said so, notably three times in the reads post you called scummy because it's too long for your taste.
Also I don't ever sheep as any alignment, sheeping is stupid. If I switch votes it's because I have a reason to do so, and even if I were sheeping I'd have been sheeping KX there, so moot point.
Voting lurkers point: I don't notice WHEN people post, just WHAT they post.

I agree that KX is probably Town, but disagree on your underestimation of newbScum.

As for the points on HD: This is the big stupid argument I was referring to.

[goodmorning]

ALSO yes, I am a defensive player. Problem?

[goodmorning]

HDDDDDDDDDD

<3

HOW DID YOU KNOWWWW


To respond to the actual game:

@Jenn: What do you think about my opinion that Panzer underestimates the talents of newbScum? Since you said you agree with him...

[goodmorning]

@serra: AT LAST, SOMETHING I AGREE WITH PANZER ABOUT.
Yeah, I don't like your post either. What's your big "oh I'm so Town" secret here that you think Panzer should get? The mason thing?
P-Edit: I way disagree with hydra here, there are two more masons, better to lose just one than all three.

@AA9: Evidence or it didn't happen.

[goodmorning]

If a Nic wagon is happening, I'd get on that. Not in favor of a lynch on Jacob or Jenn today.

[goodmorning]

This felt like the longest wait ever. Honestly I started giving out odds in the Dead QT like nobody's business, still kind of shocked we won. bork was clearly awesome and it would be pretty cool to play on a Scumteam together for more than like two seconds.

Honestly that bus on me should have been suspicious as hell. Pleased as punch to have got a win, but as I say I feel a bit bad about it.

What I really want to know is how Jacob never got lynched.

[goodmorning]

YES

CITY, YOU'RE COOL

BORK TOO

SOMEBODY GET THESE BITCHES A MEDAL

[goodmorning]

No, you and HD were probably the lynches in either order.