Open 474 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over!

[NicCage]

HEY

STARTING WITHOUT ME AIN'T COOL

VOTE: KX

Trust me, this guy is scum.

But caps are always cool. To lie about that seems scummy

Vote: HD

[NicCage]

^I'm confused, what did I lie about?

Nothing, I was just making a clumsy joke based on CAPS ARE CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.

[NicCage]

Venrob planting his vote on Klick with no original input is bad.

Why is that bad?

[NicCage]

ITT Cheery Dog is wrong.

So, so wrong.

Very wrong.

I don't know about that. KX's posts seem genuine to me, even if they don't have much useful insight in them. It could be that that is his strategy, he said he's played games elsewhere, but I doubt that he would come to this site and try to make himself stick out in his first(ish) game.

It's been established that self-voting is something Klick does, so Venrob's vote had the quality of an RVS vote on page 3. Rather than being constructive, his posts have been this vote and some self-meta.

Okay, that makes sense. Based on this and post #108, which still fits the criteria of non-constructive even though it comes after serra's post.

[NicCage]

Lol got distracted and didn't finish my post. So, Based on post #93 and post #108, which still fits the criteria of non-constructive even though it comes after serra's post, I'm going to

Unvote

and

Vote Venrob

[NicCage]

I WAS ANGRY AND UNABLE TO REMEMBER TO VOTE

Vote: KX

(Thanks. I forgot.)

^This guy isn't making a serious vote yet.

This is a problem.

It's like you know when this happens

[NicCage]

NicCage can you clarify #130? I'm not sure what you're saying there.

Another joke. Maybe I shouldn't make jokes lol.

Why do you think Josh is probably scum? Also why do you think I could be scum?

[NicCage]

How does my vote not reflect my posting?

And I definitely meant to put my vote in that post, otherwise the sentence "Based on this and post #108, which still fits the criteria of non-constructive even though it comes after serra's post." wouldn't make any sense.
However, my correction did make sense.

[NicCage]

That's true, I was basically bandwagoning. But, I don't think anyone seems scummier to me than Venrob at this point. I just wanted to see if my vote would make him respond in a different way. Like it has already been stated, his posts really hadn't added any extra relevant information. Your reason for voting Josh was that he wasn't commenting on anything relevant in the game. What's the difference to you between him and Venrob?

I added a previously unstated reason in my post when I was voting him, I don't think there was any more reasons that could have been brought up.

[NicCage]

I guess I'm sheeping serra because post #93 summed up the situation nicely. But really I'm just following the general feeling.

[NicCage]

I agree. I viewed Josh Lyman's situation as very similar to Venrob's. But now I think Josh has been called out to contribute something and he has passed up multiple opportunities to do so. I can't imagine this not being scummy.

Unvote

Vote: Josh Lyman

[NicCage]

Nic can you elaborate on your last post a bit more?

I agree. I viewed Josh Lyman's situation as very similar to Venrob's. But now I think Josh has been called out to contribute something and he has passed up multiple opportunities to do so. I can't imagine this not being scummy.

Sure. I felt that Venrob seemed scummy because of the lack of content in his posts and his insistence that we need to wait until the next day for him to be useful. I mean, he really hasn't weighed in on any player other than himself. However, Josh is easily just as bad. The only things he has posted are either very weakly or not supported.

And, rather then talk about myself, many of you will be happy to know that I plan to soon make a semi-constructive post of how I see the game so far based on other people.

YOU'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF

STOP IT

STOP IT STOP IT STOPITSTOPITSTOPIT

Josh Lyman is scum because he completely refuses to comment on relevant things in the game.

I think KX being scum is highly relevant. Why don't you? Are you his partner?


goodmorning is probtown.

Josh Lyman, on the other hand, has singlehandedly managed to avoid absolutely everything in the entire thread.

I don't know why I'm even typing a response to you, as you've repeatedly indicated you have absolutely zero grasp of a thing we like to call "reading comprehension," but I'm going to try anyway.

TRY READING MY POSTS AND YOU WILL SEE THAT I AM NOT AVOIDING WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS THREAD.

In that post you can see that he is basically avoiding being called out on his lack of attention on any other possible scum in this thread. If KX only posting about himself is such a concern to him, then why doesn't he also suspect Venrob.

KX is town, as in

NEVER

should be lynched under any circumstances. Scum do not stay up til 3am making a big post listing all of his reads. Scum try and avoid giving them so the fact 1. he gave them voluntarily and 2. he did them so late at night when sleep is far more important. Either he's town or he's scum and didn't read his Role PM.

As much as it pains me to do so, I have to agree with this.

unvote

And if Josh though KX being scum was highly relevent, why the sudden 180? Surely Jacob's reasoning wasn't that convincing.
All this behavior just seems completely out of character of how I expect a town member to act. If people suspect you, why would you draw a bigger target on yourself? Maybe I'm just too new, but it seems like too bold of a strategy for town. That's why I switched my vote. Even though I still suspect Venrob, I think Josh is currently the bigger offender.

[NicCage]

Why do you think Josh is slightly town Klick?

[NicCage]

Have you read his posts?

It's a way to focus not on the game and yet appear active.

He gave reasons why you're scummy and voted you. Just because you disagree with his reasoning doesn't mean he's not contributing.

But couldn't Josh's posts about KX be equally used to not focus on the game?
He hardly backed up his reasons for voting KX, and his reasons for unvoting are really, really awful.

I don't really see why you don't think Josh is scummy.

So the one thing Venrob comes back for is to say that someone who's been more active than him isn't posting elsewhere...

Post #272 by Venrob was scummy, and you were immediately there to call him out on it. Venrob and Josh are equally scummy in my eyes, but Venrob has promised D2 activity. Josh hasn't provided anything of value in my eyes, and I don't think he plans on doing so.

[NicCage]

But couldn't Josh's posts about KX be equally used to not focus on the game?

It was focused on the game though. It took something KX said and pointed out that it was scummy. KX self-metaing is part of the thread, and pointing out an issue with it is a valid contribution. Whether you agree with it is a completely different matter. His reason for unvoting was agreeing with Jacob. He reinforced that by saying that kind of effort is very hard to fake. I have no problem believing that he genuinely feels that way.

But you questioned him about the reasoning behind Jacob's post too.

It's well documented that a player who is putting real perceived effort into a game is more likely to be town than to be scum. Real effort is very, very hard to fake.

Apparently this answer is good enough for you, but it certainly isn't for me. Scum could fake effort in the game.
I think both Josh's vote and unvote were based on really weak reasoning. He's only commented on KX, and has only barely defended himself.
These actions don't really make sense for a townie to be doing them. I think Josh wants to be lynched.

@Josh: At least attempt to prove the people attacking you wrong.

[NicCage]

Just read up, lots of activity.

Venrob and Josh are equally scummy in my eyes, but Venrob has promised D2 activity. Josh hasn't provided anything of value in my eyes, and I don't think he plans on doing so.

I thought he was saying he'd be active day 3. If my one game previously has his playstyle right (though he's already made more posts this game than he did in the large normal I played with him that he managed to not get replaced in until day 3 or 4), he'll end up being replaced and probably a replacement will give us more content.
If you're basing your scum reads just on how much actual content someone is giving, ignoring that spencer is currently being replaced - where does he sit in your reads?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but here's my answer. At the time I considered Josh and Venrob to be almost equally scummy, but I thought that since Josh seemed to be a more active poster that was still ignoring a lot of important arguments in the game. So Josh was my highest scum read and Venrob was second. However, things have changed quite a bit. Josh was replaced, so that means to me that he probably wasn't even checking the accusations against him. A big part of my vote on him had to do with the fact that he was ignoring the accusations against him. Now, he was most certainly playing for part of the time I was waiting on him to at least defend himself, but since I can't be sure of how much I'm just going to content myself with being very suspicious with his slot.

I have time to get on this game for a minute or so, and i just read up...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: GM

G2G dinner is ready bye

This is really weird. I mean he's gone and can't play, but has time to read up and drop a vote. I'm still not going to vote for him because I know I won't get a response, but I'm not the only one that thinks this is scummy, right?

Okay now onto more new stuff:

Okay I'm willing to hammer Josh. Is that okay?

AH WHY. I can't tell if you are scum or your reasoning is just terrible. Right now my gut is leaning toward terrible. I'm tired of making this post, so I'll make one right after this with more investigation into Josh.

Also, now that he's not at L-1,

Vote: Josh

Why would you put an inactive player back up to L-1? You didn't want to lynch him before, and you can't add pressure to a nobody.

I don't know about this GM case though.
My gut screams scum at panzer

[NicCage]

Or maybe I won't do so much as I thought I would. I don't think HD's original case against Jacob was very persuasive. I feel like he was reading into a lot of null posts too much.
However, even though I think a lot of Jacob's scuminess is coming from his playstyle there's still this:

HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED

And to be fair this is a very town reaction. I mean scum would try and build some sort of defense. The way he acknowledges but also.ignores the wagon.is a very telling sign.

Even though Jacob's logic is pretty bad at other times, this one is pretty off the wall. The words themselves make no sense.
Although I think it's possible Jacob just didn't like the Josh wagon.
-----

I have an issue yay

But the reason why I was willing to hammer is 1. A lot of people had expressed opinions on him and so.would be a good information lynch. 2. I prefere to not make the mod have to try and find a L-1 slot as often they are very hard to find.

These reasons are pretty bad too. I dunno. I can't make heads or tails out of this. Oh, and ealier I meant to

Unvote

.

[NicCage]

Venrob and Josh are equally scummy in my eyes, but Venrob has promised D2 activity. Josh hasn't provided anything of value in my eyes, and I don't think he plans on doing so.

I thought he was saying he'd be active day 3. If my one game previously has his playstyle right (though he's already made more posts this game than he did in the large normal I played with him that he managed to not get replaced in until day 3 or 4), he'll end up being replaced and probably a replacement will give us more content.
If you're basing your scum reads just on how much actual content someone is giving, ignoring that spencer is currently being replaced - where does he sit in your reads?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but here's my answer. At the time I considered Josh and Venrob to be almost equally scummy, but I thought that since Josh seemed to be a more active poster that was still ignoring a lot of important arguments in the game. So Josh was my highest scum read and Venrob was second. However, things have changed quite a bit. Josh was replaced, so that means to me that he probably wasn't even checking the accusations against him. A big part of my vote on him had to do with the fact that he was ignoring the accusations against him. Now, he was most certainly playing for part of the time I was waiting on him to at least defend himself, but since I can't be sure of how much I'm just going to content myself with being very suspicious with his slot.

I was understanding you scumreads to be based mostly on active lurking, and was therefore wanting to know of what you thought of a slot that hadn't actually posted anything even close to resembling content. (venrob and josh had voted, that kind of resembles a form of content).

I don't know about this GM case though.
My gut screams scum at panzer

I guess this answers the question of your read of spencer then. Though did you actually have anything on that slot being panzer came in?[/quote]

Ah ok I get it now. No I had nothing on that slot. His only post was a little strange, but he said it was his first game. I couldn't really make a judgement based on that.

[NicCage]

Jennifer, What do you think of panzer?

[NicCage]

Hi

The scum team is Human Destroyer, goodmorning, and the Mehdi Hydra.

You're welcome

Vote: Human Destroyer

Very bold assertions, and my gut doesn't agree with them.

Cool Story. What makes you think that?

conforming to an anti town idea in order to fit in, the way he maddogged the josh wagon for silly reasons

Goodmorning for starting a stream of anti-town posts.

Mehdi is gut mostly along with his play between him and HD. I'd be willing to discuss the possibility of Serra being the 3rd scum instead of the hydra simply because he calls out the hydra for doing something antitown and then contradicts himself by doing something incredibly similar.

Not a big fan of the hammer offer coming from jacob with 2 replacements incoming and more then week before deadline. but he's likely town

Jenniferr is town(mostly because Joshw as town and her posting reaffirms)

@KX, unvoting because of a replacement is kind of silly. You're obvious new town but why the unvote? Do you find the Josh slot(now inherited by jenniferr) to be a town slot or a scum slot?

goodmorning reaffirming my heavy scum read on her with the whole unvoting the replacement thing and then voting another lurker. I'm very willing to switch my vote to her if the better and much more tasty Human Destroyer wagon doesn't happen.

I don't see how HD has "conformed to an anti-town idea" at all. I'll admit I don't have a solid read on him, but the case against Josh was pretty good. The reasons behind it weren't silly, to me they made sense. IMO HD was just following his most scum read at the time, as was I. Could HD still be scum? Sure. But the reasons you are bringing against him are weak.

GM leans town to me. I don't think her posts are anti-town. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you mean to say that the fact the she used scum lists makes her posts anti-town. However, her posts were providing reads, and she did at least cite other posts and provide reasons why she felt her reads were the way they were. Klick uses scum lists too, why don't you suspect him?

I think that Jacob could be town also

Josh did not seem town. I think you would have trouble making an argument that his posts were even null. No, to me Josh seemed very scummy, for reasons already stated. I find it strange that you would be so sure on your read on Jennifer.

This makes it sound like you just want to build a wagon, but I'll address that later this post with the help of a quote from KX.

I always do scum lists. Just search around, you'll find them.

Except the case wasn't bad (it isn't applicable anymore because Jennifer strikes me as town on first impression but whatever)

It was definently bad, and listing scum suspects is scummy and anti-town

Could you explain to me why that is so?

Btw, just an idea I wanted to throw in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like what Panzer is trying to do is pressure some who are generally considered town and, more importantly, have managed to slip past any major criticism. While I fully agree with and endorse this idea, at the current time, I think that trying it is rather impractical. Given the current situation, even if you're making a false case, there simply isn't enough to go off of for anything substantial to emerge. The idea behind making a false case should be that a person who's mainly considered town has been, in their own way, flying under the radar, and avoiding criticism. Your goal would be to create a probably highly biased case against them were you jump to many irrational conclusions, and test how they react to pressure and defend themselves. Ideally, this let's you confirm your belief in them being village while eliminating most doubts.

Of course, via this post I would somewhat ruin the point of it, but at this point you may be damaging people's opinions of you. Simply put, there just isn't enough to go off of, even if you try and present things in a tainted light. Ordinarily I would just let things run their course and see if you have anything you haven't said yet, but give the scarcity of the case, I think no good will come of it, and only harm will be done to you. Now, if you truly do think the players you've mentioned are scum, I have to question if you're village. While it's good to pressure those who are more "clean," a useful tactic if you want disruption is to play on people's paranoia and call out said "clean" people as scum, which spreads doubt and can make people fall out of the reach of logic in their assumptions.

So pretty much, if you're bluffing about it all, say so now and hold off until later before you hurt yourself, and if you're serious, then please say why, as I doubt I'm alone in wondering why and being unconvinced.

I REALLY like this post, because I thought the same thing. Maybe panzer is just trying to put pressure on players that haven't seen much pressure before. Pointing this out would surely ruin this play, but I doubt the effectiveness of the play. So I'm joining KX in saying, if you're bluffing it's time to stop, because I think you're scum.

Given the current situation, even if you're making a false case, there simply isn't enough to go off of for anything substantial to emerge. The idea behind making a false case should be that a person who's mainly considered town has been, in their own way, flying under the radar, and avoiding criticism. Your goal would be to create a prob

Cases are scummy. Creating a false case is probably more scummy. HD and Goodmorning are scum

Well if you think false cases are scummy, then I guess I have no choice but to think you're scum

@Panzer

a) Why would a case more likely come from a scum mindset than a town mindset?

b) Which case(s) is/are false and why is/are it/they false?

Cases disrupt the town by causing a back and forth that distracts from scumhunting

KX implied I was making false cases or exaggerating my cases. I was saying that deliberately doing either is scummy.

Pretty much just be more specific. You've made a number of claims so far, but call me stupid, I haven't been able to figure out how you arrived at those conclusions. Site specific examples and explain the reasoning behind your conclusion. I mean, you've made stabs at how your logic fits together, such as #358, but, at least for me, you never quite connect them together or to reality. I don't entirely disagree with you, as I said I find they should be investigated more, but I'm not seeing you doing that.

I'm not going to make a post by post case, because those are scummy. Instigating the use of scum suspect list is both anti-town and scummy as it directs the scum and does give the town any real benefit(good morning). Doing something with direct intent of gaining town cred to facilitate a mislynch(hd), Jumping from lurker to lurker to appear more town is scummy(good morning). i'm sure there's more but sleepy.

Cases can easily be scum hunting. The back and forth is very useful to scum hunting, how else are we supposed to look for slips and know where people's opinion's lie?

Well I like post by post cases. Are they always right? no. But they aren't necessarily scummy. Making assertions without backing up your reasoning is scummy.

Having said all of that against you, I'm not going to vote you today.

Jennifer, What do you think of panzer?

I have a town read on him.

At the current state of things, that's ridiculous. He at least warrants suspicion.
VOTE: Jennifer

The case against Josh was good, and you have done nothing to diminish my suspicion of your slot.

[NicCage]

At the current state of things, that's ridiculous. He at least warrants suspicion.
VOTE: Jennifer

holy opportunism batman

How so?

[NicCage]

It looks like you're calling PJ scummy for a bunch of things and then using it as ammo against Jennifer because she doesn't agree with you. That doesn't jive with me.

I'm calling her scummy because her slot already had a major FOS on it and because she's ignoring legitimately scummy behavior in favor of a weaker case against GM

[NicCage]

haha I wonder how many more he has

[NicCage]

I'm pretty damn confident in this one, you can all sheep me now.

I agree with you that he is scum, but why do you think we should all wagon him rather than Jennifer?

[NicCage]

I'm pretty damn confident in this one, you can all sheep me now.

I agree with you that he is scum, but why do you think we should all wagon him rather than Jennifer?

Jennifer really isn't that scummy IMO

Sorry, I was hoping you could explain why. Because I think they're both scummy.

[NicCage]

Well shit you guys, I didn't think so many people thought I was scummy.
If you have any questions or anything you want me to clear up I'll be happy to.

[NicCage]

What exactly makes you all think I'm scummy?

[NicCage]

What exactly makes you all think I'm scummy?

you weren't defending yourself at all, its like you have nothing to defend. that is awfully scummy than ever

unvote

VOTE: NicCage

@Mod Vote tally please..

What do you want me to defend? I shouldn't have too much to defend, I've played as honestly as I can.

I take it back. While he hasn't exactly done anything scummy, looking through the thread, he hasn't exactly contributed much or posted any concrete opinions, and for me I think he could do better. However, with AA9's post, I want to know, what did he have to defend himself against? So far, it seems like nobody has throw accusations at him, and so he would have no reason to defend himself. It certainly does seem like he's avoiding attention, but I think Klick could be accused of that as well. So, why are people voting him, and why the suggestion of him in the first place?

I've posted concrete opinions, or as concrete as they get. I can only have hunches, there's always room for doubt. I've posted that I think josh/jennifer is scum, is that not concrete? Was my post about panzer not concrete.

My other half's opinion on him basically boils down to too much fence sitting and lack of pushing much. Personally I'd rather look at klick if it's what we're basing things off primarily because of associations he has vs nic and the way they've voted.

~M

Could you explain the fence sitting to me? And while I haven't been pushing, I've made up my own mind and presented the reasons why. I know my judgement isn't always the best and I want to hear what other people think without forcing my view on them. I thought my reasons stood for themselves.

[NicCage]

If you really can't possibly see a jennifer lynch I might go for that. But I really don't understand why you think jennifer is town.

[NicCage]

I think that panzer and jennifer are both scum, so I guess what it comes down to for me is who it would be better to have tomorrow. I think jennifer's alignment will give us more information.

[NicCage]

Guess you didn't attach too much significance to my bandwagon

[NicCage]

Ew. We're about to find out, but I think you all just made the wrong choice

[NicCage]

Yeah I thought the Goodmorning AA9 stuff was town on town, so that was surprising, but I was expecting panzer to live the night, mason or no.
I have no idea at this point. Bricks have been shat.

[NicCage]

I don't know, it made sense when I thought it the first time. I just didn't think I was

that

wrong.

[NicCage]

serra, could you explain your reasoning behind voting panzer? If you answered CD's question and I missed it I'm sorry.

klick, what do you think about serra defending josh for so long?
Hydra, same question

[NicCage]

@HD
@Nic
@Serra

What are your thoughts on why Hydra is/is not scum?

I can't give you an Is/Is not, it's too absolute. Clearly my reads aren't that good.
However, I think there is a good chance compared to other players that the Hydra is scum.
I'm basing that mainly on two things:
1. At the end of the day the hydra threw out a lot of WIFOM and basically held on to his original scum read from Josh.

2. Els's response to the wagon that sprung up on me, and the justification for it.

Now, I held on to my read on Josh too. But I think the hydra and I did it for different reasons. Josh's obviously bad play offered easy evidence against him, and as a new player that logic was something I could grasp on to. However, the Hydra is a very experienced player, and I don't think it is likely that they would make the same mistakes I did (that said, it's totally possible that they did).

CD's question once answered could shed some more light on this, but why would the hydra think I'm scum? First off, I'm mentioned quite a few times in the Hydra's earlier posts in relation to the case against Josh.

210: Avoiding me and nic's clear reasons pushing you as well as responding to each vote and are trying to get away as quietly and easily as possible. Instead of directly confronting all the suspicion on you you're just asking HD the more obvious attacking leader when two others gave you clear places to start in a defense (respond to els laundry list of your scummy posts and nic's several quotes and reasons on your scumminess).

Why would they think I'm fence sitting, when earlier they said I was pushing, that I had reasons of my own, that my reasons were clear? If they thought that at any point it doesn't seem likely that I would all of a sudden become scummy. The lack of a vote and the ABORT is interesting too. Giving approval to my wagon, yet providing an alibi to clear themselves of any connection to it once I was lynched, if that were to occur. Imagine that I had gotten lynched and flipped town. I doubt that that would do more than muddy the waters in this game, unless I'm mistaken about the amount of information my lynch would contain. I think that in that situation I would have been a prime target for scum to lynch.

[NicCage]

Why get information for later use when you can lynch scum now?

I think the game could be solved via Process of Elimination and agreement among common townreads.

First of all, does anyone disagree with any of the following players being town:

KX
Jennifer
bork

I don't think you can safely count bork out just yet, but yeah he doesn't really seem that scummy to me

[NicCage]

@Hydra, what's your read on serra in relation to your other reads? I don't want the list so much, but if you were to make one would serra be high or low on it?

Klick, could I at least have a scummy/not scummy answer to my question?

klick, what do you think about serra defending josh for so long?

[NicCage]

All of Serra's D2 posts are scummy.

[NicCage]

Yeah, I've reread D2 and looked at an ISO of GM and Serra. VOTE: Serra

All of D2 all you've done is try to divert attention via your argument with HD.

[NicCage]

No. I think you could be scum with serra

[NicCage]

Intended for Hydra not HD

[NicCage]

My point is that I'm not going to listen accusations from someone I think is scum, and if you want me to you should first address what I said about you earlier.

[NicCage]

I don't need you to care. I'm only interested in what other people think. You're tone has changed from the beginning of this game. You should want to be helpful and find scum, and if I'm going astray and accusing a townie, you should let me know so, and why?
Do you not agree?

[NicCage]

@HD
@Nic
@Serra

What are your thoughts on why Hydra is/is not scum?

I can't give you an Is/Is not, it's too absolute. Clearly my reads aren't that good.
However, I think there is a good chance compared to other players that the Hydra is scum.
I'm basing that mainly on two things:
1. At the end of the day the hydra threw out a lot of WIFOM and basically held on to his original scum read from Josh.

2. Els's response to the wagon that sprung up on me, and the justification for it.

Now, I held on to my read on Josh too. But I think the hydra and I did it for different reasons. Josh's obviously bad play offered easy evidence against him, and as a new player that logic was something I could grasp on to. However, the Hydra is a very experienced player, and I don't think it is likely that they would make the same mistakes I did (that said, it's totally possible that they did).

CD's question once answered could shed some more light on this, but why would the hydra think I'm scum? First off, I'm mentioned quite a few times in the Hydra's earlier posts in relation to the case against Josh.

210: Avoiding me and nic's clear reasons pushing you as well as responding to each vote and are trying to get away as quietly and easily as possible. Instead of directly confronting all the suspicion on you you're just asking HD the more obvious attacking leader when two others gave you clear places to start in a defense (respond to els laundry list of your scummy posts and nic's several quotes and reasons on your scumminess).

Why would they think I'm fence sitting, when earlier they said I was pushing, that I had reasons of my own, that my reasons were clear? If they thought that at any point it doesn't seem likely that I would all of a sudden become scummy. The lack of a vote and the ABORT is interesting too. Giving approval to my wagon, yet providing an alibi to clear themselves of any connection to it once I was lynched, if that were to occur. Imagine that I had gotten lynched and flipped town. I doubt that that would do more than muddy the waters in this game, unless I'm mistaken about the amount of information my lynch would contain. I think that in that situation I would have been a prime target for scum to lynch.

Oh yeah, and this is what I'm talking about. I'm also talking about CD's question which you never answered.

[NicCage]

My point stands, you haven't answered CD's question. You should have some sort of an answer. With or without Medhi.

[NicCage]

About whether Mehdi read your ISO? I'm still waiting for my cristal ball to be delivered to my home, sorry.

~ Els

Ah, yeah that's what I get for using memory instead of looking it up. Still, that situation is weird.
How about your change in opinion on me. After all you said panzer's proposal was tempting and then completely switched opinions. Could you explain that a little more?

serra, the vote is the point, the vote is where the distraction begins.

[NicCage]

I'd like to hear from those of you who aren't v/la about serra. Do you all think his D2 activity is scummy?

[NicCage]

I guess only he can provide a definite answer, but why would he not share my opinion when i made it pretty clear to him? Iirc, he also shared a few times my reads concerning e.g. Jacob and serra in the middle of day 1.

~ Els

Could you make your opinion a little more clear to me? What posts did you find scummy? Did you not have a read on me before reading my iso?

[NicCage]

You haven't yet, but I'll address it when I don't have to phone post. What exactly is your defense of serra?

[NicCage]

Actually you may have answered all the questions that I can expect you to answer for the moment. I have a couple of questions for Medhi though. Why don't you get amazon prime, free 2-day shipping on that crystal ball.

[NicCage]

No. I think you could be scum with serra

Just to be clear, the no was for the jacob wagon being better. I realize now from rereading your posts that you might not have gotten that. So when I was talking about accusations I meant the Jacob wagon.

I don't believe in Serra + GM. Serra spent a lot of time defending Josh yesterday, and this would be a very strange move when one of the counterwagon is on scum.
~ Els

Can you explain what you meant by this?

[NicCage]

But the scum know who everyone is, by defending a town player who seems to be an easier lynch they can look much better when that player flips town. Why was serra so sure that Josh wasn't scum? Surely serra is not a mason.
I think the end of the day just didn't go as planned due to Jennifer playing better than Josh and Panzer jumping in.
Besides, serra fits your other criteria as well, voting GM at the end of the day to try to bus and I believe serra's D2 posts avoid any serious commenting.

[NicCage]

Please stop rolefishing. It's really quite scummy.

So what did I have planned then for D1? I obviously didn't want Jenn/Josh lynched, so why should her better play matter? If I were bussing GM, why would I fake reluctance and a lingering townread on her?

I think the intentions of my post are clear, and I think you understand them. I assume everybody understands that you are misrepresenting what I said, and if they don't then they can ask me to clarify.

I think that your plan was was to let the Hydra lynch Josh and I think GM screwed you two over by getting lynched.

Why do you think i'm scummy enough to deserve your vote?

[NicCage]

HD, who else do you think might be scum other than serra?

[NicCage]

Well the reason I'm asking is I want to know your thoughts on Jacob. Because I really think the hydra has a better chance of being scum. I completely agree with you on serra

[NicCage]

It's not exactly that I think you're more town, it's that I really think the Hydra is scummy. I can't really read you, but the fact that serra and the hydra are both willing to vote for you makes it seem less likely that you are scum.

[NicCage]

Medhi, will you be around long enough to answer my questions?

[NicCage]

i am confused with the post above...
so you think Hydra is scummy but the fact a scum & Serra(who you didn't mention scum or town) votes Jacob makes Jacob less scum? What kind of logic is that?

Things you need to clear up

Hydra - Do you think or do you have good reasons to consider hydra scum? State the reasons
Jacob- Apart from your theory of Hydra's vote and Serra vote makes him town, do you have anything else?
And what do you think of Serra?

What I think of serra should be obvious, I'm nearly certain he is scum, which is why I'm voting him.

The meaning of my post is that since I believe serra and hydra to be scum then there isn't any room for more scum.
I can't really read jacob, but it doesn't seem to me that he is particularly scummy. Since my only two scumreads wanted to vote him i thought that made it more likely that jacob is town.

I've made posts during this day explaining why I think the hydra is scum, I can find them for you later, if you like.

[NicCage]

I'd really prefer serra, I would accept Hydra. I don't think that lynching Jacob will give us that much information so I don't really want to lynch him. The only way that I would lynch HD is to prevent a no lynch.

[NicCage]

(sigh)

Can someone explain me why is it so freaking important whether mehdi had or not a read on NicCage before quoting what i said in the hydra topic?

Because apart from being a GIANT DISTRACTION, it is absolutely and totally irrelevant.

Can we move to useful stuff now, like lynching HD?

Thanks,

~ Els

It's important because it doesn't make sense for a town player who puts thought into their actions to completely ignore an established read based on next to no evidence (unless you had much more than what you showed me). If Medhi had no read on me then it would make more sense that he would take your word for it.

[NicCage]

KX, Iso serra and GM, unless you're rereading everything. I think the case is pretty strong against serra

[NicCage]

Yes, I read your posts. Like I said, your D2 posts were basically just empty noise.
Also your defense of Josh while the Hydra was pushing Josh makes you look scummy to me.
I know that days ago I knew some other specific details from D1 that seemed pretty scummy, but I don't remember them anymore. If another player other than the Hydra or you wants me to go back and find those I will, but I don't really want to do the work. I'm hoping people will read for themselves and come to the same conclusion.

[NicCage]

Also your defense of Josh while the Hydra was pushing Josh makes you look scummy to me.

So you're going on the assumption that the Hydra is also scum?

Not really, I was just bringing it up. Really you're the only person I'm absolutely sure is scum, the Hydra just seems like a likely partner for you.

[NicCage]

pst... we don't have a lot of time left

[NicCage]

Votecount 2.6

Docteur Gudsight (L-2):

Cheery Dog, Jennifer, Klick, KX

serrapaladin (L-2):

Human Destroyer, NicCage, borkjerfkin, JacobSavage

JacobSavage (L-4):

serrapaladin, ArcAngel9

Human Destroyer (L-5):

Docteur Gudsight

Not voting (0):

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2013-02-21 20:00:00).

KX will be V/LA until 27-02

Klick has been prodded.

I'm willing to switch to els if needed, but I would really prefer serra. I would rather go with what I think is the sure thing first. I'll be back on in a couple hours to see if anything has changed

Please consider voting serra

[NicCage]

Fuck me.
I think els could still be scum, but I'm not nearly as sure about it. I was planning on serra flipping scum for that to work.
I could see Jacob being scum now.

[NicCage]

That seems very unlikely. Arc and docteur are your top scumreads I take it, which one do you think would be more likely to be scum? Reasons would be nice too

[NicCage]

No I see a possible link between the two of them.
That's different.

What links them? And if they aren't your top scumreads, who is?

[NicCage]

Yes obviously, you should know.

But seriously I kind of forgot that Goodmorning was in the game...

lol distancing

[NicCage]

So you think you were wrong to use it as evidence against Jacob? When exactly did your thinking change on it?

Do you think Jacob is scummy?

[NicCage]

That post was from D2, but I assume your read carried over.
During D2 it seemed like you agreed with what bork and I said about that if serra was scum then Jacob was town, was that the case?

[NicCage]

Okay. I understand that I'm your top suspect, is Jacob your second?

[NicCage]

Both els and Jacob were part of your potential scum teams yesterday with serra. Personally I thought that serra/hydra made the most sense and serra/Jacob didn't, it seems like you agreed. However, now that we know serra was town, what makes els a more likely candidate than Jacob?

[NicCage]

I understand that, but why els? Part of my suspicion on els was based on the fact that I expected serra to be scum.

[NicCage]

VOTE: HD

Explain why you think els is scum, and I need reasons that aren't from today alone.

[NicCage]

Is that all though?

[NicCage]

I'll admit that the case explicitly presented against you to isn't the greatest, but what you did was weird. It struck me as weird before it was pointed out. I wasn't going to vote you over it, but you blew up and have basically been throwing any small reason at els since. It's looks like OMGUS
Did you have any other reasons than the one you stated for voting me?
Why is this argument enough to tip the scales from me to els?

[NicCage]

I misread your post, yeah I remember that. What I said still stands though, and I still like my questions.

[NicCage]

What I was talking about is what you said today, about Jacob, and what els said about that. I assume that's what you meant by "their case on me"

[NicCage]

Yeah, no. I haven't looked into this enough yet

unvote

Too dangerous

[NicCage]

HD, since you sound certain, do you have any more reasons why you think Jacob isn't scum?
Also, my other two questions.

Jacob, if what you said should only be considered if one of them flips scum, and you think it is tenuous, do you want to lynch one of those two today?
And since you said they weren't your top scumreads, who is?

[NicCage]

I think Cheery is town. Jennifer I don't know. I thought she was town, but I really can't say anymore.

HD, if els does flip scum, who do you think would be a likely partner? I know you might not like looking for a partner right now, but I think it's important to think about at least a little

[NicCage]

He says a lot of things that I think and I feel like he's genuinely looking for scum. His play doesn't seem that different to me from the other game he was in with me, he flipped town.
These things just prevent me from having a general suspicion of him. If you have any specific points to bring up that I missed I could be convinced otherwise.

[NicCage]

Sorry, I just don't really know where to take this. I haven't had time to read into cheery more. I might be able to do it later today.

[NicCage]

Hi Jacob, who are your scumreads?

[NicCage]

Ok. Why do you think Docteur flipping scum would make AA9 not town?
Do you suspect everyone not on that list equally?

[NicCage]

VOTE: Jacob

[NicCage]

I'd rather lynch Jacob than anyone else.

[NicCage]

Why do you guys think docteur is scummy?

[NicCage]

unvote

VOTE: Docteur
I guess I could see the hydra being scummy still, but I'm not really sure about this.

[NicCage]

Yeah mafia is destroying my attention today

[NicCage]

I think it's out of bork, HD, and Jacob. It's probably not bork though, I just can't rule him out. KX has seemed weird lately, but I expect him to come back and redeem himself.

Why Jennifer bork?

[NicCage]

Yeah sorry, it's spring break so I've been seeing people I don't usually get to see/lazy time.
I absolutely will not vote KX today. I reread him and he still seems town to me. Seems like Jacob is getting attention as a compromise vote, though I'm not interested until we get a little more information or until I get off my ass and read a little more.

I think it's out of bork, HD, and Jacob. It's probably not bork though, I just can't rule him out. KX has seemed weird lately, but I expect him to come back and redeem himself.

Why Jennifer bork?

Pure PoE -- I have a strong townread on AA and medium townread on HD. I don't think it's KX based on interactions with several other people. I don't think it's you.

That leaves Jennifer and Jacob.

What's interesting to me though is that I have a townread on Jennifer, so is there anything about her that strikes you as scummy?

How many mislynches can we have and still win?

[NicCage]

My thought process is that I haven't had time to read HD's massive ass ISO again, and that we haven't heard from him today. If HD ignores this game forever I'll probably vote him, but I want to hear what he thinks. Jacob could very well be scum, but he's impossible to read or look into, it would be too easy to lynch him without thinking about it.

As KX said, we only have one mislynch left, so I'd feel a lot better if we were more careful today than yesterday.

You seem jumpy. If the scum team is Jacob and I, what happened to your read on KX?

[NicCage]

Strong case there HD. Is that what your VCA told you too?
I can't see anything wrong with me wanting you to post your thoughts on the game before I up and hammer you, and I think it's reasonable not to want to rush into a possible Jacob mislynch without seeing what my other scumread might look like. You can't deny that Jacob has never given a satisfying answer to a question.
That looks like a lazy misrep to me, so you want to try again with that case?

[NicCage]

Woah ok, well I'm still on spring break, gonna be busy tonight again, so just give me a little time before you lynch me.
But seriously, what? Where did this all come from? Jenn, I don't know how to respond to all your notes, could you take out what most makes you think I'm scummy?

The one scummy thing I remember going back through Nic's ISO that I called attention to D1 was that his "Here's a huge case on panzer but let's vote jennifer after all that cause why the fuck not" (#516) was AWFUL. That probably offsets that twilight towntell (#760) and points to the lack of a jennifer/niccage team.

Eh, I'll consider Nic (ArcAngel please give an opinion here).

Jacob's better IMO.

Okay I get this. Yeah honestly once Jennifer joined the game I was having trouble keeping up with what was going on, and when panzer came on so strong I had no idea who was scummy and who wasn't. So I just was trying to get back into the game at that point. That post was pretty dumb in retrospect.

[NicCage]

Kay spring break is over.
VOTE: HD
I've reread his ISO and I'm voting him based on his exchange with panzer, the way he's uses bad reasons to switch his reads, and how he came to be voting me today.
I'm really wishing that I took notes, I know you guys probably want some more developed reasons, and I'll try to go back and find them once I get back to school later today.

[NicCage]

Okay, I don't want to do this anymore, I'm getting tired, so I'll be skipping the point about HD using bad reasons to change his reads. I'll get it tomorrow.

The back and forth between panzer and HD has a lot to it and I think you should read it, it starts on post #555.
Panzer's response, #568, brings up a point about how HD is looking for approval by pointing out that he is the one driving the Jacob wagon at the time. Before that post, HD had spent a lot of time pushing Jacob, basically ignoring the case on GM. Yeah he mentions that it interests him, but he never puts GM above null in his reads and when AA9 asks him why he doesn't think GM is scummy he answers her question with a question, then with what he said earlier. No explanation at all. Looking at #407 and #412.

HD then pretty much explodes over the fact that panzer is accusing him of being scummy, for what he states are things that aren't scummy.

Panzer explains what he means in #568 and #577.
#584 is HD's huge reaction to panzer's accusations. HD misreps panzer in this post, stating that panzer was using what he saw as scummy behavior to avoid HD's question, although panzer

did

answer it immediately in #568. Panzer call's HD out on what was an OMGUS vote from HD, with very little reason to back other than that he didn't like panzer's reasons and he claimed panzer was twisting his words. This is an extremely defensive action from a player who is in no danger of being lynched.

I think Panzer's interpretation of HD's reaction was dead on.

1) You can convince people that someone is scum without making a case or posting a wall. shocking I know.

2)

-Voting a player his "scumread" is pushing the lynch of

is it though. and I didn't even say I was going to. I said I would consider it. You are being very liberal with the english language here. Using the definite of "He's voting" as the future of he is "going to". Neither of which are true.

3) Only small because it's a scumslip you did. Scumslips are generally small.

4) 1 vote on me that is obvious OMGUS = OMG HE'S CALLING ALL HIS VOTES SCUM GUYS.


You are getting worked up and creating a case on over me "calling you scum for things that aren't scummy". If that were true, you wouldn't be getting so worked up over it. You are panicking over something that wouldn't be such a big deal if you weren't scum.

I have more, but this is taking so long, people keep interrupting me. So more tomorrow, I promise. Hopefully in the morning so you won't have to wait, but who knows.

[NicCage]

I didn't even understand it at the time, I didn't understand very much of what was going on. If you flip me today you should definitely lynch HD, and the people you should look into are bork, jacob and you, but you're the least likely out of the three

[NicCage]

Yes obviously, you should know.

But seriously I kind of forgot that Goodmorning was in the game...

bork I still think this is a town-tell

I'd say Els is scum and then either Jenn/Cheery is scum by PoE; I never really looked at them too hard after Josh Lyman D1 flash-wagon tbqh.

VOTE: Jacob

Combination of lack of interaction in GM's ISO and yesterday's suspicions

Post 429 is the only thing that really gives me pause on Jacob-scum tbqh.

I mean it's kinda hard to forget your scumbuddy is in the game.

Ew. We're about to find out, but I think you all just made the wrong choice

Oh I missed this

Nic could be town then

I also completely forgot the whole counterwagon situation thinking back at it

[NicCage]

oops fuck, you'll probably have to read those again now >.<

[NicCage]

Actually, I'll just go with it
Yeah right bork, like that's really a scumtell. What's the difference between acting without understanding and being wrong? It's obvious I was wrong, and now I can look back on panzer and HD's argument with the knowledge that panzer was being honest, and from seriously rereading I can understand what he meant. Why should I have to spell that out? Did my case sound like I understood panzer?

My other points against HD:

HD was all over Jacob D1 for any and all reasons, a lot of them weren't very good, especially his PbpA.
#767 HD still thinks Jacob is scum, but in #1154 now something that was a scumtell before is now a towntell? I think he just wants to move on to greener pastures.
Same thing with me, he thinks I'm scum until no one goes with him, then he draws that tiny reason there and switches to suspecting cheery.

Today he basically just jumps on me once Jennifer expresses suspicion, and his reasons are terrible. I'm fence sitting? How is that scummy? All I'm doing is trying to be careful, if I was scum and HD wasn't, why not just vote him when I had the chance? Show me HD's meaningful interaction with GM. How about when they both list each other as town?

I'm not liking the seemingly random votes drifting onto HD here, he's looking pretty Town so far and I am vaguely inclined to wonder whether KX or Nic knew precisely what they were doing.

Alright, I didn't wake up this morning when I was supposed to and I don't have a super duper huge amount of time now. Here is my readslist, I'll get into reasoning later tonight or tomorrow first thing.

Towniest-leaning

HD
CD
serra
KX
Jacob

Null

Klick
Spence
hydra

Null

AA9
Nic
Josh
Ven

Scummiest-leaning

TOWN

Human Destroyer
KX
goodmorning
Docteur Gudsight
Cheery Dog
ArcAngel9
--- <--Null line
Klick
Venrob
NicCage
serrapaladin
--- <--Null line
JacobSavage
Josh Lyman

SCUM

NOT RATED

Spencer22

Besides that, GM sheeped HD a couple times.

[NicCage]

Or they're both on my wagon, but yeah you're stuck

[NicCage]

I already offered the possibility that bork is the second scum. Like I said it's either you, bork, or jennifer, but probably you or bork.

[NicCage]

Yay!

[NicCage]

Don't know why you'd ask lol, the game is still on, but I swear it's not evil

[NicCage]

Yeah, if you flip town then we're probably going to lose

[NicCage]

Cause I'll get my ass steamrolled

[NicCage]

Yeah I thought jennifer was a mason until D4 when I reread panzer. I was surprised when you brought her up yesterday, bork. I thought sure HD was scum though.
I'm fairly certain AA is still town.

[NicCage]

Or maybe I just forgot D3 altogether, jeez. Yeah, no I must be the dumbest player in this game.

[NicCage]

What read changes do you mean bork?

[NicCage]

I don't like the reasons for your flip on HD.

I didn't like your explanation at the time (#1447); it looks like an excuse not to explain where your head was at Day 1.

And considering the HD flip it looks opportunistic as hell -- which is what I thought yesterday anyway, but had HD flipped scum I'd be looking at it differently.

Yeah.

I still don't really see the difference between "I didn't understand what was happening" and "I was wrong"

I guess it does look that way, but why didn't I go for him earlier in the day when it would have been easier?

[NicCage]

Any particular actions that you think are town?

[NicCage]

Poo lol, guess I should have checked the game earlier today. Congrats to bork and Jacob, never would have guessed it was you bork.

Well this was my first real game so I guess I learned a lot. Do you guys think it would have been better if I had let myself get lynched D4?