Open 548-WiFom City: The Invasion (Over)

[Greymarble]

Hello everyone. What follows will be somewhat cursory.

ABR I expected you to be a more violent person before playing with you, but why have you been so limp both here and in red wine?

so, i don't know many of you. who's good? who's bad? who am i able to bully?

This is alarming due to "Hey all I request information I could've gotten from a scumQT so clearly I don't have one?"


SCUM

MTD except he does have a vaguely useful readslist
Profont

Hoopla
BC

Shockwave hobo
Notscience
ABR
Aronis
IAAU
Aisa
Rottweiler
Ika

Greymarble
TOWN

[Greymarble]

Hi

Haven't read jackshit

Unvote

Hoopla is always scummy, except when she's scum.

Still worth lynching 100% of course.

[Greymarble]

First off, I hope you all aren't too attached to your votes on us, because this thread is about to experience some orbital bombardment.

Let me get this straight - I don't need reasons for your reads; I want to hear /how/ you got them, because there's a glaring inconsistency in there.

You're refusing to do anything until I comply to your demands - is this correct?

-p

Correct. You asked for reads, i will even quote you

Hi ika.

Are you going to read the last 200+ posts, and if you are, can you grace me with a t/s list?

~p

I decided to ignore the first part and do the second b/c these could be considered 2 seprate request. Your post said no justification was needed. Now i repeat myself

YOUR READS, JUSTIFICATION, AND ANSWER TO MY QUESTIONS.

Ika is scumhunting. Ika feels Ika has the RIGHT to the information Ika needs to figure the game out.

Oh please, what did I do? Is it my fault she was doing nothing even remotely town? Or am I not allowed to think she is scum?

Stop using excuses and start playing, or follow Sakura and replace out

~Wis

Know what now im getting pissed off, i dont know sakeras alignment nor yours nor anyones for that matter, but if you are just gonna be a shithole like this then maybe you should replace out. You obviously dont care for a persons emotions right now and the fact that you cause her to replace out and have no regrets make me just want to lynch you out of policy. If you are going to drill someone to a point where they replace out like that, then you should be the one being replaced.

How about makeyourself useful and think of someone else who might be fucking scum or scum hunt now instead of going "replace out, you suck"

This is a fucking game and if you are going to take it to a point where you are forcing a player to replace out. You need to be slapped and take a hard face of reality. Not everyone can deal with death tunnles and the shit you are doing. I was like that (and sometimes still am) but i dont replace out. If you take it to a point where someone is forced to rplace out. The falt is yours. Now how about you shut up and stay off this thread and do a hard rest or have your partner post for a bit. You have already done enough damage as is.

"How about you be useful instead of obnoxious" is also more common from town.
Scum can get upset with somebody who is being a tool, but there's also an undercurrent of "I demand you start helping town win" on top of the slightly more fakeable "I demand you stop being mean."

Bad lynches:
Greymarble
Ika

[Greymarble]

My defense of Ika is best described as an examination of Ika with a very clear result.

won't lynch: greymarble, ika, abr, rottweiler

This list is fine. I've seen ABR be this feckless before and he was town, so no issues tabling him until there's more to go off of, and despite his total misguidedness Rottweiler makes a town impression as well.
I will say that ABR's behavior here would be very consistent with a traitor PM, but that's for worrying about later.

[Greymarble]

Scumteam is Shockwave, Profont, & Notscience.
MTD is the backup in case one of them somehow flips town.
This game was surprisingly easy.

[Greymarble]

Yeah, this might be another quicklynch all the scums game
Just remember to finish eliminating my list after we die N1 as usual.
Grey can pick which of the 4 to vote; for now -
VOTE: Notscience

Remember that post where I revealed the pure townness of Ika to the world?
I believe I mentioned that the scum version of telling someone off is more about "EFF YOU FOR BEING MEAN" and less about "MAKE THYSELF USEFUL."
Observe!

Don't you give me that bullshit.

Sakura initially joined the game because I made a comment on site chat about how we haven't played together in forever. We were initially going to hydra it too.

And you did nothing? Bullshit. You KNOW how Sakura gets. And you still do this shit all the fucking time.

----Sigue: Sakura replaced out of 1526 as scum------

anyways.

Fuck off. I'm pissed because the one person I initially signed up to play this game with is gone thanks to your fucking tunnel.

[Greymarble]

Yawn

Now I know how a shark feels when it spots a bare behind.

Profont is my favorite alternative; too conciliatory and I don't like the "Look somebody just admitted of their own accord to something that sounds scummy!" post.

[Greymarble]

I personally am actually okay with this NS push. Me and llamarble have been talking.

Profont needs serious rope. Aisa is a weird null shaped spot with ugly splotches on it. Llama says town though, and I trust him. Some of it does feel townish.

Not as positive as Llama on Ika, due to some of the outrage feeling a bit forced (or at least played up) but I'll buy town.

Other than that our reads are in alignment.

[Greymarble]

Oh and Wisdom is hella good at pushing an argument as scum. Not positive he'd invest day 1 for no reason though. It's dumb move for scum to do.

No idea how to traitor hunt, so I'll leave that for someone else.

[Greymarble]

Huge random brain dump of catchup:

Greymarble

im placing my vote on scum. he was too intrested in himself and me in slotting town. If gray is to flip scum i could see abr and hoopla following suit.

This is based of the last few post that i have seen alone. Asia admits shes has been scummy and lazy. So why are we lynching her? If she flips town i would suspect the people who started the train on her (hoopla)

Porio i expect you to give me those reads.

Wisdom lets lynch scum right now, ns is not

ABR is delibertly acting too disintrested and has yet to replace out when he said he was going to. I suspect hes traitor.

hoopla pushed on the chargard train and when it got dismantled he went after aisa. Now why is that? if asia is to flip town i would look at hoopla first.

there are sevral toehrs that i could see swappign out as scum (iamusername, shockwave are suspects)

gray marble says he has all the scums found but then changes, whos the hydra speaking there?

my vte is staying on the sakura slot.


thats was a huge jumble of nonsense in some random orderly fasion. i just got home and have no order of thought process atm here. so take it for what it is. If anyone has questions or needs anythign clairified tell me. My mind is just mesh up from this and sevral fms deadlines.


p-edit: how about no. we could flip you. that post makes me think you are scum and its a tvt now who wants to spectate this unfolding

Like see Llama, it's shit like this that makes me dislike the slot. Is there any question which one of us wrote each post if you actually read the posts? No. No fucking question at all. It's not possible.

Then we count the people who might be scum: Hoopla, ABR (apparently traitor-scum), us, Iam, Shockwave.

Then copious apologies for the content being absolute crap. FU DIAF

[Greymarble]

What happened to the rotteweiler bandwagon?

Black Magic.

So, Profont and NS, what do you think?

[Greymarble]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: grey

~Wis

Yo Wis

You're being

A fuckwit

[Greymarble]

Like I mean, what more is there to say?

Not one person here is actually doing us the favor of reading what we think and interacting with us. Well, except Hoopla.

Some of you have to be town. Those that are are playing beyond poorly. Sakura thought Wisdom was an annoying fuckwit. Guess what? I think Wisdom is an annoying fuckwit. It's probably because he's being an annoying fuckwit. That's a null fucking tell.

This is a bunch of townies yelling at each other while scum like Profont and NS profit.

[Greymarble]

You have not explained why Profont and Shockwave is scum yet. And your explanation for why ns is was a carbon copy of mine.

~Wis

It should be pretty easy to deduce why Profont is scum. You know Random Question Stage? Try to determine when Profont left it. Oh right, never. His ISO is a sea of questions. What conclusions does he draw from the answers? We never seem to find out. It's just more questions, and put offs on what all the answers are going to mean. "Oh shoot me on day 3 if I'm still acting like this"

Yeah day 3, after the scum have time to cull the smarter townies and desperation has set in and he's stepped on no one's toes and pushed a wagon. Oh, and he's currently voting for Aisa. The question he asked Aisa?

Why did you vote for us?

So apparently the questions aren't even influencing their reads any. They're just asking questions for the sake of it.

[Greymarble]

So you don't see anything scummy in asking pointless questions without rhyme or reason and then promising answers later and only when a townie screams at you?

I'm curious, is your general plan to pick the worst players in the game and lynch them and hope they're scum?

[Greymarble]

"Man we lost again, but all those awful players got lynched. Oh well, isn't my fault!"

[Greymarble]

So you don't see anything scummy in asking pointless questions without rhyme or reason and then promising answers later and only when a townie screams at you?

Nope, nothing scummy in that. If anything, it shows that they don't care to be townread. Scum would be more careful and actually wouldn't ignore questions.

~Wis

/headdesk

So your theory is scum would never do anything scummy

Because they're scum



So town, this is the guy leading the wagon on us. You up for following him?

[Greymarble]

Because I assure you, it's a town flip at the end of the derptunnel

[Greymarble]

Who cares whether we sign our posts.
We both speak for the hydra as a whole and it's not like I don't individually change my mind enough to make heads spin anyway.

How is it even a question whether Sakura replaced out because she was annoyed at Rottweiler. It's not like she faked replacing out; she LEFT THE GAME.
Nobody replaces out because they're scum and afraid of getting lynched. People understand that that is how the game works. People DO replace out from being very annoyed at another person.
In a time of resolve, Sakura instructed Rottweiler to "Bring it on." Later, in a different emotional state, she was unable to withstand her annoyance with Rottweiler and left the game.
"Oh no Sakura is scum because she violated her stated intentions" is a FULL DERP argument given that town simply change their minds more often regardless.

Our hydra has played 3 games to date.
In two of them we died night 1 after OBLITERATING any chance of the scumteam winning and in the other we died N2 after maintaining decent reads lists and being clearly town but failing to secure scumlynches and pave the way for a town win.
Also I just won Paragon of Mafia Hunters!
Generally it is inadvisable to lynch somebody who just arrived and is likely to win you the game if left to their own devices.

My Ika townread is dying.
I am up for lynching MTD or Profont; NS' "You can't lynch me Ha Ha Ha" refrain is somewhat more common from town than scum.

[Greymarble]

Except I already provided an example where Sakura replaced out as scum and faked frustration.

It's therefore proven that she can and will do that even when she replaces out to help her slot and team.

It's proven that she can also get annoyed at people and replace out as scum.
If somebody does something 5 times as town and once as scum, you have not discovered a scumtell, you have discovered a person with a thin skin.

469 quotes its own refutation. "TIME OF RESOLVE."

I provide reasons when I feel they will be useful. Not because some random player wants me to try and explain the complicated patterns that give me scumpings.

Your incredibly low quality of arguments calls your alignment back into question too.

[Greymarble]

What it was argued was that it was completely unwarranted and her frustration was fake.

Right, which is idiotic, because she DID in fact replace out, and no other explanation is nearly as reasonable as "she was frustrated."
I have no idea what you find wrong with the rest of her posting; it looks fine to me.

It looks like we may have reached the "lynch Aisa because she's not us" point, which is annoying as I'd like more choice but at least Aisa scum is conceivable.

[Greymarble]

If she were replacing out for any reason other than being annoyed with you, she can say "sorry all, I must leave due to RL" and say HA I didn't let that dickbag rottweiler get in my head, a victory her "bring it on" post clearly indicates was important to her.

But let's entertain your stupid idea that she replaced out due to being busy and disinterested, then decided to fake some anger to make herself feel less lame and potentially help out her replacement.
Which I must repeat is an "I respect you less because you think this is reasonable" level of idea.
And even that makes just as much sense with Saktown as Sakscum.

I've known you for all of one day and you've already managed to be highly irritatingly dense.
I can see why Sakura wasn't interested in putting up with your nonsense.

[Greymarble]

Yeah, fine.
One day remains and grey liked this wagon IIRC and I don't think it's terrible.
VOTE: Aisa

Rottweiler, the odds of our slot getting killed N1 are solid, if any of the scum have played with us and know what's good for them.
So we'll probably die anyway just like you want us to!
You should at least make the scum waste an NK for it instead of lynching a very strong replacement player like 3 days after arrival.


P.edit:
It would help her gain pride.
Tell me of this previous game in which she was NOT frustrated and lied about it then admitted lying about it afterward, and I shall at least understand where you are coming from.
And yes, I find it just as likely for town to lie about reasons for replacing out as scum.
I think her getting upset has more to do with her variance in state of mind than yours.

[Greymarble]

Pride wouldn't help her slot. What she did would, if she did it right.

The chances of you getting nightkilled are zero. Scum are not crazy to kill the most scummy slot in the game.

~Wis

I'm curious.

You seem to think that scum would be crazy to kill us because "lol u so scummy."

Not because you think we'll flip scum.

In fact I see no conviction at all that we'll flip scum in your posts. So let me ask you, Wisdom, are you willing to self vote tomorrow if you're wrong today? Willing to bet your survival on your "read"?

[Greymarble]

If the scum are Hoopla or IAAU or anybody else who has experience with me, they'll know they have ZERO chance of mislynching us if it doesn't happen today.
Leaving our slot alive for any significant period is ASKING to lose.

Yes, I am arguing that we should not be lynched mostly on strength of reputation.
You don't lynch a player like me, a good scumhunter who becomes massively obvtown in almost all towngames, before I've had a week in the game.
At least not if you like town wins.
I like to think I'm most of the way to obvtown already anyhow.

[Greymarble]

Assuming I counted correctly my unvote puts them at L-2. I am starting to question the wagon though. People seemed to jump on it pretty quickly.

Rott is still town. GMarble is kind of town, still undecided really.

@Grey:
What did they like about the wagon?

The day is ending tomorrow night. Rapid wagon building is normal and something you should probably be taking part in.
What I like about the wagon is that Aisa is neither me nor obvtown.
I do think Prof / MTD might be better options, but even our hydra's tremendous powers of wagon-driving aren't likely to get quorum in one day in a game this quiet.
Besides, I've only really gotten through the first couple read-cycles. I need more time than is available to reliably determine who is scum anyway.

[Greymarble]

I still await a demonstration of the game where Sakura Hana lied about being frustrated with somebody.
NOT replaced out as scum because frustrated with somebody. LIED about being frustrated.
That is what you have to demonstrate before I respect your sentience.

[Greymarble]

You seem to think that scum would be crazy to kill us because "lol u so scummy."

Not because you think we'll flip scum.

In fact I see no conviction at all that we'll flip scum in your posts. So let me ask you, Wisdom, are you willing to self vote tomorrow if you're wrong today? Willing to bet your survival on your "read"?

I'm absolutely certain you'll flip scum. I was just pointing out how ridiculous it was to argue that you're getting NK'd. Even if you were somehow town, you would be the last person that scum would NK.

~Wis

So wisdom, still awaiting that bet. Ready to self vote tomorrow if we flip town?

[Greymarble]

Also listen to Llama

Sakura thinks you're a giant asshole who sucks at mafia because, well...

[Greymarble]

There are posts to analyze but I do need a little more time looking at them.
But you've managed to motivate me into spending some more time tonight instead of just lynching Aisa and hoping for the best / figuring stuff out tomorrow.

[Greymarble]

I will say that I like BC & ABR for town off those two posts (particularly if Aisa is town); it's risky for scum to roll the dice and give us an opportunity to make something new happen when they could almost surely have a lynch on us or Aisa by shutting up.

After another round reading Profont, his classification is "Solid Scum Possibility."
They have some posts where they point things out and give reasons, but I don't see Real Hunting.
The "we wanted to let BC get wagoned to catch opportunistic scum seems weird for the point it comes at.

MTD next

[Greymarble]

Satisfied myself of NS town.

Town -
Greymarble

NS
Albert
Rottweiler - Pretty over the top for a D1 scumbag
Beastchar
Hoopla
IAAU
Ika - back into the box, for me (marble) at least.

Weird:
Aisa - could be traitor to an MTD-Hoops team, but mostly just a challenging read.
Shock

Maybescum
Prof

Lynchtime?
MTD

VOTE: MTD

I've now made a few passes, and while I'd have liked more time, I feel pretty good about where I'm at; the conclusions keep coming back the same in a way that makes me feel good.
So!
BC and ABR, you made me put in the work, and gave me the chance to find a better lynch, now help me make it happen.

I'll give a few reasons regarding MTD in my next couple posts, some of which can be credited to Grey. We both like this.

[Greymarble]

His longest post is very similar to a Scum Readswall from another game.

Ok, I am here and will try to get into this game again, I think I will just go through the players.

Aisa: Still town to me, saying she is unsure and not pushing for a lynch because of that is null, but she still seems to be genuinely trying to get an idea of the game, asking questions and also not centering her attention to much but inquiring on many ends is in line with her not being sure.
@Aisa: As you didn't have strong scumreads: Do you have any townreads?

username: No idea, might be scum. Scumread Aisa for reasons I can't really follow (the meta point is meh, as she explicitely stated she is having difficulties in getting clear scumreads here, which naturally leads to less pushing for lynches), answers to questions, doesn't really ask any except as a reply, generally has made two cases, yet none of them was strong and he doesn't seem to really be investing much into them either.

Profont: Probs town, I liked their early game and the way they cut off the discussion with ika seeing it wasn't going anywhere, not much recently, didn't follow up on asking sakura for meta, but then, there hasn't really been anything from them since that.
@Profont: Why are you still voting ika after #317? Are you scumreading iamausername?

Beast: Leaning scum. Well, there hasn't been anything to change my read there. Still not a strong read, mind.
@Beast: Scumreads? Also, I don't get what you mean in 305.

ABR: Nothing.
@ABR: Please explain your vote.

Not: Null. Reaction to Sakura's replacing out is ok, if the meta really is as stated by him, hasn't done much yet sometimes giving opinions, answering to questions, but nothing to really get us going.
@Not: Got any questions for people?

Sakura: Null-scum: Again, I don't know the meta and I won't look it up at the moment, either, what I can say is that Wisdoms push

really was not hard

and I don't get the replacing out at all. The early reaction to him pushing were somewhat strange aswell, I don't think blocking off and stopping to contribute anything as soon as someone honestly attacks you is something town should not do. I know that that doesn't mean town wouldn't do it and I realize there is some backstory on that one, that's why I am only counting it as a meagre scumread, but still.

ika: Scum. Aronis was hard to read because of not doing much, still, what he did was strange, he did give some "townreads" in his first post, just to say "Oh they weren't actually townreads, I just picked some where it would look good", stating people had asked him for reads, when actually afaik nobody did.
Now to ika himself: They fight with font is basically just font saying he wants reasons, ika saying he wants reasons first and so on, this is childish, but pretty null on both parts. Now to the Sakura part. Ika said Wis had "death-tunneled" and even " pushed her to replace out" on several occasion.

He did not.

It was just a normal push, his play is totally normal. I can understand Ns' reaction as a semi-personal thing, but I can not understand this. Also it irks me he feels the need to say "but mine was" after saying ns' reaction was not genuine.

Hoopla: Leaning Town, but not helping much: Asked questions, didn't do much of a followup generally, didn't get them to generate reads, so yeah.
@Hoopla: You didn't answer Wis' second question?

Rott: Leaning town, although the discussion around sakura is a bit hard to follow for me not really knowing her. The push on her was on the one hand definitely nothing extraordinary in terms of how hard it was, but iirc it was entirely based on one meta tell, which is a bit weak actually. Still, I like them trying to animate people to take a stance and do something and I don't see anything very scummy there.
@Rott: Now you first said the ragequit was fake, then it was not fake, and now you give an example of a similar one as scum. What do you actually think is the case?

He has been noncommittal throughout the game; it's like he's poking the food with his fork instead of eating it.
His vote on us is "yeah, I suppose I'm okay with this;" there's no detectable urge to push the day's lynch onto scum.
I get neither the sense that he is trying to solve a puzzle nor the sense that he is trying to get his voice heard, the two behaviors that basically DEFINE town.

[Greymarble]

This is grey, I want to say, the MTD lynch is made of goodness and win.

Profont should bus day 1 it's great towncred.

[Greymarble]

Instead of passionately finding and lynching scum, MTD is giving a few reads and reasons, because he knows that is what is expected of him like any decent scumbag.
And speaking of absent passion, here are responses to accusations:

Could you please give me an example for where I answered anything that "wasn't mine to answer"? (what is that supposed to mean btw?)
Even if you can, why does any of the two points make me scummy in your eyes?

@DA: Ok. It is possible to see it that way, although in my games so far, I have never seen scum do that (if the town players aren't dumb, it shouldn't work anyway).

Right, I did answer for Hoopla in 38, not in the following posts, though (the next post is me asking for reasons for a vote, in the next one I attack you for one of the questions directed at Hoopla but don't answer it), neither have I done so recently. Still don't see why this would be scummy.

Also "randomly dropped in activity" doesn't really apply here. I was busy IRL, my activity in my other games dropped off somewhat as well.

None. I don't think Hoopla is outstandingly town, but neither do I think the points brought up against her are valid, that's why I defended her there.
Sooo, I am not sold on her being town, but I definitely want cases from people voting there (and generally), so if they don't give any, or ones that don't hold, I am gonna call them out for that, that's part of my scumhunting, y'know?

You magically appeared when I voted you which was kind of nifty.

Actually, no.
I did "appear" earlier on that same page.

You should still let people have the opportunity to defend themselves. They could slip and say something stupid or have a defense that very clearly makes them town. There are many reasons to let someone defend themselves and not butt in. It felt like you were trying to hinder my scum hunting. While I might not be the best I don't just do stuff for shits and giggles.

Yes, that is one possible view on the case on the other hand, as I said, it is part of

my

scumhunting to look at how you do your scumhunting. Again, there is only

one

post, where I really did answer

instead

of Hoopla, in the others I attacked you for the way you did your inquiry, so that's not really defending them.

There is no indignance here. One big difference between town and scum is that town fight the accusation whereas scum fight the arguments.
Each time a point is raised against him he explains why he should not be scumread for the particular point and goes about his business instead of anything resembling "you're reading me wrong let's lynch actual scum like X."

[Greymarble]

Random vote for possible-buddy-prof, nonrandom votes for BC -> me works nicely from a scum.
Beyond that, other than Prof, everyone has some pretty decent reservation-giving posts.
So this read has PoE behind it in addition to meta and him failing on some of the most basic measures of towniness.

MTD is the best I think I'm going to do today.
I put way more time into mafia today than I intended to, so I expect to be given the MTD lynch I put so much time into figuring out.

[Greymarble]

If you want to be helpful give me a read on hoopla and ABR.

No.

Help us lynch scum.

[Greymarble]

As for Dragon's selfvote request, I shall happily selfvote at the beginning of D2 if MTD flips town, but I can assure you that even if that comes to pass NOBODY will have any interest in lynching me by mid D2.
I'd describe my town behavior as INSUFFERABLY obvtown, when necessary. Even scum usually become embarrassed with themselves for voting me.

ATE is a powerful ally of town, annoying as you may find it. It is MUCH harder for someone who is lying to rave and rage against their oppressors.
It is foolish to lynch an a player like me 3 days after I've entered the game because I tend to be very effective for town and sufficiently obvious town not to get a lynch wasted on me.

We have 32 hours. We have provided a very good lynch, and reads on everyone else. We are MORE than holding up our end of the scumhunting, particularly considering we just got here and had to catch up.
Let's all vote MTD and get our hydra killed N1 for the third time in a row due to the terror we raise in scums' hearts.

[Greymarble]

Rottweiler - notscience,

Albert R. Rampage

, Shockwave Rider,

Sakura Hana

Same.

Aisa - iamausername, beastcharizard, Hoopla, Shockwave Rider, Profont, GreyMarble

And the third scum should either be on here or is Aisa herself. I lean the latter because of GreyMarble avoiding voting her until it was inevitable - he tried to wagon ns instead, and now tries to wagon MTD. Also, Albert didn't hammer Aisa; I'd expect him to given his play.

Grey/Aisa/Albert.

I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about MTD's flip, but if we got it wrong then Shockwave, Aisa, Notscience and IAAU will be the first people I revisit.

[Greymarble]

Huh. We're alive. How confusing.

So we just hit the mafia traitor, folks. While busses do exist, scum don't know the identity of the traitor. We could have pushed an Aisa lynch and just rode it out and fought people day 2. We could have bussed.

If you think we read the entire game and just so happened to pick out the mafia traitor, as scum, we are either the luckiest hydra alive or have the reads of a god.

If we're town? Heh.

Anyway, me and llama have a few things we're thinking, but I admit we didn't devote any time to this overnight. My thoughts are that there was NO INCENTIVE for scum to do anything BESIDES jump on MTD, since MTD flipping "town" would completely discredit us, as well as probably result in our lynch and possibly Rotty's too.

[Greymarble]

Oh right!

[Greymarble]

Yer so it will be good to examine what mtd did to others, but mafia doesn't know the traitor so bussing doesnt really exist here because as far as mafia were concerned he was. Anyway we didnt think mtd was maf and in a way we were right. He was playing not as part of the mafia team so.......

Anyway I said all day NS is scum. Wis wasn't so sure but I am sure. Trust me I have played with NS enough to know he is scum.

When he was buddying us a little to start with I knew it and said to wis.
he's overforced his nonchalant town play with things like run up to L-1 and you are my town list. He's over doing it.
The reaction to Sakura seemed forced too like he was trying to come across angry and care as a townie and a person.

Anyway I'm sure he's scum cos I know him too well. Wis dominated yesterday today will be my turn. We will hit scum.

VOTE: notscience

I'm curious. Why did you insist so hard yesterday that MTD was town? It's not like he was doing anything townie at all.

[Greymarble]

I'm happy we were able to deliver a scumbag after everyone put their trust in us!
Is this game as easy as MTD outright telling us he'd rather lynch Aisa than himself because Aisa was real scum?

Us not being dead is probably a good sign for Hoopla-town; I have to imagine she'd follow the "Greymarble hit scum so they're going to be very hard to lynch / influential and are good players and there isn't much that can screw up an NK" chain of logic I expected would get us killed last night.

I'd guess Aisa and shockwave or maybe IAAU / NS, though MTD did entirely leave shockwave off his reads list at some point. Scum can forget to mention buddies though, so I'm not going to worry about it. On to the votes!

[Greymarble]

Votecount 1.02

[L-3] Sakura Hana - Rottweiler, notscience, Shockwave Rider, Hoopla
[L-5] Rottweiler - Albert R. Rampage, Aisa
[L-5] notscience - iamausername, Sakura Hana,
[L-6] Dragon Alliance - MTD
[L-6] Hoopla - Dragon Alliance, Profont

NS or SW

Votecount 1.04

[L-6] Sakura Hana - Rottweiler
[L-6] Rottweiler - notscience
[L-6] notscience - Shockwave Rider
[L-3] Dragon Alliance - MTD, Hoopla, Sakura Hana, iamausername
[L-6] MTD - Dragon Alliance
[L-6] Aronis - Profont

IAAU?

Dragon Alliance (6) - MTD, Hoopla,

Sakura Hana

, notscience,

Albert B. Rampage

, iamausername

NS or IAAU again

Rottweiler - notscience,

Albert R. Rampage

, Shockwave Rider,

Sakura Hana

Aisa - iamausername, beastcharizard, Hoopla, Shockwave Rider, Profont, GreyMarble

NS / Shockwave, IAAU / Shockwave

Votecount 1.11

[L-3] GreyMarble - Aisa, Rottweiler, MTD, ika
[L-6] Rottweiler - Albert R. Rampage
[L-2] Aisa - iamausername, Hoopla, Greymarble, Shockwave Rider, Profont

Not voting: notscience, beastcharizard

IAAU / Shockwave voting Aisa

Votecount 1.12 - Lynch

[L-3] GreyMarble - Aisa, Rottweiler, MTD
[L-6] Rottweiler - Albert R. Rampage
[L-0] MTD - Greymarble, beastcharizard, profont, ika, Hoopla, Shockwave Rider, iamausername

Shockwave / IAAU the sketchies again

This all fits pretty well for most combinations in the pool of 4, though Aisa's most likely pairing is NS as the others were willing to lynch her.

Other people:
Pro-town:
Prof removed themselves from the strong lynch candidates list with their wall.
Hoopla has been protown and reasonable throughout.

Over the top:
Rottweiler - it's not terribly common for scum to go full vitriol D1 like they did

DGAF:
ABR didn't do much, but he didn't seem to care much about the things scum pay attention to. His "And my axe" / "this wagon is dangerous and I want no part of it" posts were humorous in a 'this probably came from a townie' way.

BC seemed very town as well, if I remember correctly.


So that's where I'm at going into D2. I'll perform a D2 readcycle either tonight or tomorrow, talk things over with Grey, readcycle again, perform lynchpicking procedure, and hopefully we'll offer up another scum to get rid of by the end of this week

[Greymarble]

Worth mentioning that ABR also works as an Aisabuddy.

[Greymarble]

VOTE: notscience
Well then. I'm going to try my best to do better than I did Day 1, starting with a complete reread + opinions on everyone tomorrow.

It's hard to bus the traitor, admittedly.

Any plan to switch your role PM so you cna win with the town?

[Greymarble]

Of course scum was on the MTD wagon. Having us lead a wagon on town day 1 and then argue with people all of day 2 (as well as discrediting us) would have been a scum win. They had no reason to avoid the wagon and every reason to go for it.

It just turns out we are good at this.

[Greymarble]

I finally read the game.

Scum is obviously one of the players that MTD called town. Profont, rottweiler and Hoopla all come off badly.

Unvote NS, vote rottweiler

Really ABR? Because when me and Llama did this exercise, one player stuck out to us as being defended by MTD for very little reason.

@mod: I think for Hoopla and DA it should be L-5 instead of L-6

I don't have much new to add, I am currently reading Rott and Aisa as town and am still content with my DA votae.
@Aisa: Why aren't you voting?

~ Fixed, the names control.

Based on that theory we kicked around the idea that MTD named the scumteam here.


Reads list: Again we see Aisa town (and Ika, Beast and our slot scum, which I'm content to say means Beast is town, on top of the other reasons Beast is town).

It would be terrible to do, but he didn't get lynched for having an excellent scum game.

@shock: Aisa is being inquisitive, also following up on her questions. Does however not blindly follow her initial thoughts but reconsiders and just seems to genuinely be not sure, but trying nonetheless.

Aisa again


So Aisa is by far his most inexplicable town read. Why is this not even mentioned, ABR?

[Greymarble]

ika kill makes notscience scum unlikely. why's he gonna kill the one guy who was actively defending him?

NS would...... Cos he is arrogant enough as scum to do it and do it himself as I said to wisdom during the night phase. Lets track him and see where he goes and voila where did NS go last night. He was tracked to Ika.

Boom lynch the shit outta him guys.

Yes NS was tracked to Ika last night.

NS today
Aisa tomorrow
Perfect win

Don't make it so obvious next time NS.... Especially when I have a power role to confirm my suspicions on you

~dog

And then I scroll down and see this.

Why the FUCK didn't you claim that in your first post?

Vote: Notscience

Not even worth discussing with Llama

[Greymarble]

Like, "Llama, we lynched scum day 1 and then they night killed a VT.Do we vote for the tracker guilty on day 2?"

"Grey how deep into the meth are you anyway?"

"DON'T JUDGE ME"

[Greymarble]

MTD wasn't part of the team. He was a cheerleader for the team. He knew of them, but they didn't know of him.

I can't see him pushing his buddies. They're basically his only connection to his win condition, and he must have felt lost as hell (hell, I'd feel lost with a Traitor PM, and I've got like 10x the experience).

[Greymarble]

Yay!
Hopefully it really will turn out to be NS / Aisa in which case we voted all 3 scum D1 and haven't voted town at all.
I have no problem with a fast lynch here.

[Greymarble]

Aisa did come into today voting notscience, so I don't think we should instalynch her tomorrow.

[Greymarble]

Rottweiler, did you guys start out as a tracker or get promoted due to scum using one of their upgrades?

[Greymarble]

Yes, this is a thing that happened.

[Greymarble]

'kay if we do have a bodyguard, they better be on Doge tonight.

[Greymarble]

Good. Townies should never ever stop lynching scum reads because of shitty claims. I just lost a game because people refused to lynch someone scummy in LyLo due to "oh his role is so townie lolololol"

I would HAPPILY hammer any non-mason claimed PR after a day 1 scum lynch.

[Greymarble]

/me eagerly awaits results.

FYI, our tentative on first reread is:

1) Shockwave
2) Profont
3) Aisa

FYI I feel Aisa is most likely town so

[Greymarble]

@Shockwave: Why Hoopla?

[Greymarble]

technically she could be a scum JOAT using a ninja kill, but i don't see scum using their goon to make the N1 kill when they were already a man down if they had the JOAT power available.

Explain this to me. Why would scum waste a strongman shot on Night 1?

I don't think Aisa is cleared at all. We've had two revealed power roles, which means that scum went for at least two of the five options. Both notscience and MTD flipped as goons, and if MTD was not recruited, the last scum

has

to be some sort of role. JoaT makes a lot more sense to get then bulletproof or rolecop. Then there's the fact that JoaT is the first role notscience thought of when he was trying to save himself.

Aisa's behavior has been just as bad as her interactions with the flipped scum. Just look at the way notscience treated her, going from having a scumread on her, to claiming that he had no scumreads, to asking why there was a wagon forming on Aisa.

VOTE: Aisa
-font

This post

Really bad

Really really really fucking bad

Need to talk to Llama but I may flop 1 and 2

[Greymarble]

Vanilla Townie

[Greymarble]

Everyone's next post should contain a claim.

No need for order.

...

Two browsers on the same game OP.

Gee gee.

Claim anyway.

[Greymarble]

I don't have much new to add, I am currently reading Rott and Aisa as town and am still content with my DA votae.

Why a townread on Aisa?

why are you conflicted?

I don't like your early jump on the Sakura wagon or your attacks on Dragon Alliance. Your later posting looked townish to me but looking through your iso I can't remember why at the moment.

Shockwave, can you remember the composition process that generated your quote-screwup here?

[Greymarble]

We're town.

If Rottweiler is scum, he handed us his last partner in a setup that gives him no excuse for lasting to lylo and could've gotten him simply counterclaimed.
On top of that he took a headfirst, very town approach to the game D1. Not a legitimate scumpossibility.

Aisa is very likely to be town, though I'd still like to hear the thought process which produced an NS vote at the beginning of yesterday.
Tracker result, "I don't have any scumreads" + "I'm not going to lynch you for one thing" show honesty and the right mindset.

BC I am pretty convinced is town "The hold on the game made me question my reads" was an impressive move if he's scum.
Same for reflection on hydra partner's read-effects and #495. DA showed early paranoia about town proceeding intelligently.

Biggest gap is here.

ABR is probably town but not to be ruled out. He's pretty forthright and his ISO makes townsense.

Hoopla clocks in somewhere between ABR and IAAU. Viable as both alignments and has made several protown moves.

IAAU is more :active: than Hoopla or ABR but fits a little better as scum than them with random voting a buddy D1 and not deviating much from standard push some things make some arguments.

Profont fits fine with scum. Good wall, but not a lot of other work, and the interactions fit fine.

Shockwave does give me a little ansiness; I'm not sure he'll flip scum so I'm going to want another pass. He's quieter and mostly fits the push things make arguments mold.


I'm happy with the first 4; the remaining 5 I'm going to have to spend a bigger timechunk on.

[Greymarble]

BC I am pretty convinced is town "The hold on the game made me question my reads" was an impressive move if he's scum.
Same for reflection on hydra partner's read-effects and #495. DA showed early paranoia about town proceeding intelligently.

Also BC flipped town, which always improves my read of a player.

[Greymarble]

I 80% agree with Hoopla's interpretation.

ABR's complaint about it makes no sense. He's been around long enough to know Hoopla speaks the truth.

[Greymarble]

ABR, why did you originally oppose a mass claim?

[Greymarble]

I reread Aisa for some reason; she remains town.
MTD called profont "towntown." It is uncommon for scum to use reinforcement words like "super super town" when describing buddies.
I think MTD's ISO is most compatible with the remaining scum being Hoopla IAAU or Shockwave (only 6 minutes to remember and scum could be pretty jarred by forgetting a buddy).

[Greymarble]

I finally read the game.

Scum is obviously one of the players that MTD called town. Profont, rottweiler and Hoopla all come off badly.

Unvote NS, vote rottweiler

I think this is ABR's worst post; I have trouble swallowing the "obviously" here, and there is a possibility of "start day voting buddy and move to townie" plan.

I iso'd Hoopla. I think Hoopla is town. That leaves only SR. GG scum.

This might be his best one; he reevaluates his read and reverses on a player he needs to mislynch if he's scum.
The early chain of town-perspectived bits was solid too.

I don't think I want to lynch ABR today but he's not off the menu.

[Greymarble]

There isn't anything interesting to be pulled of NS. Ah well.
I'm not sufficiently satisfied of Shockwave Scum to lynch them either, unfortunately. I wanted that initial list of 4 to be right but meh.
IAAU certainly has cared about / tried to influence town's lynches. He does work as a buddy to NS though.

cool.

aisa vs. notscience head to head battle.

everyone who hasn't picked a side yet, do so plz

Hoopla has certainly played a solid game here if she's scum, but I'm not sure there's anyone else who gives us better odds.
I'd hate to mislynch Hoopla again after Nomination mafia, but I guess that was several years ago (wow).
Profont I cannot at all rule out either. There was a little segment where they took particular interest in my read on notscience and it flipping.

I didn't get anywhere conclusive this round
If forced to choose right now, my selection would be profont.
Hopefully I can come at this again later and get a result I'm more confident in.

[Greymarble]

ika kill makes notscience scum unlikely. why's he gonna kill the one guy who was actively defending him?

Vote: IAAU

IMHO this is a scum claim.

I was wondering who shoots Ika. Him.

Llamarble less convinced but still fine with this, this is approved.

[Greymarble]

Also we'd like to note that WIFOM requires third level thinking, and there's no indication MTD moved beyond first level thinking in the (complex) traitor role. Third level thinking should only be expected from scum who are playing well, or at least have the confidence to

believe

they are playing well. Or the self awareness to realize they are playing poorly and try to gain some victory from that.

But that's besides the point. Lynch IAAU. Win game.

[Greymarble]

The post Grey mentioned, the initial vote for NS from IAAU (random votes from scum are slightly more often for buddies due to inadequate mixing), and MTD's "no idea might be scum" (at the time IAAU looked fine but MTD may have overestimated his scumminess due to being a buddy) on IAAU all fit as scum interactions.

On his own, I don't see any significant problems with IAAU but everyone has reasons to regard them as town and the interactions do fit, so I'm fine with this

[Greymarble]

Hoopla can be outthought when it comes to mechanics, but it's VERY difficult.

(and everyone will assume you're scum and lynch you if you somehow outwit her)

That being said, well, we can discuss mechanics later, but I'd tend to think Hoopla would pick either two power roles or zero, due to the nature of the power roles.

[Greymarble]

She'd also have prompted the mod to clarify if traitors flip traitor or not rather than fucking up the setup, because she would have analyzed her choices like that.

[Greymarble]

Although I do tend to think she'd lean zero just because of the number of confirmable roles there. Only the tracker/Gooncop are really safe to fakeclaim. But we can setup speculate after we win.

[Greymarble]

Okay, time to go fourth level.

There are six possible town roles. Of them, 3 cannot be fakeclaimed (bodyguard, Vigilante, Innocent Child) and two are dangerous to fakeclaim since they're confirmable (tracker, roleblocker). You'd need rolecop to adequately fake roleblocker. This leaves you with a mass of confirmable townies. This means that selecting extra roles for scum is full on nightmare mode. It doesn't even matter that the town gets meh roles, they're meh roles that are confirmable. In addition the tracker makes the rolecop potentially horrible - tracking a rolecop lynches scum and confirms town. Goddamn disaster area.

But the moderator made an important setup shift inbetween start of game and N1 - he removed the "Recruited Goon" role and replaced it with a "you don't know if the traitor was recruited" mechanic. This gives scum leeway to fakeclaim even if they lose two partners. Moreover, the speculation occurred BEFORE the traitor flip, because the mod made the alteration immediately, in the mod flavor.

This change was not initiated by the moderator, because the moderator is fine with recruited goons at start of day. It was not made on behest of the town. Therefore it was made because the scum team argued with the moderator. Ergo, the scumteam contains a member that has enough experience and intelligence to debate setup with a moderator and win.

Hoopla. IAAU. ABR. And maaaybe Wisdom on sheer force of logical analysis (but he's confirmed town anyway so well etc.). And outside on Profont, since that's not a stupid hydra. But overall, whoever is on the scumteam is capable of engaging in high level setup speculation and fakeclaim preparation, and it's not NS or MTD.

[Greymarble]

@Hoopla: We fit the profile of nothing. We are a replacement, Sakura Hana is who would have decided that. Just sayin.

God DAMN it. This is not like riding a bicycle.

[Greymarble]

Although yes, I feel no shame in saying that I personally would have picked zero power roles.

PEdit: Aisa has flaked, it's rather obvious.

[Greymarble]

Also if she's a PR, she's one who can't be tracked, and there's no town PR that doesn't target except Innocent Child.

[Greymarble]

Hmmm, ABR has played this before. That means he'd be likely to discuss the "Goon/Recruited Goon/Traitor" mechanic shift the moderator initiated. He didn't comment on it at ALL though, which is odd if ABR-scum. Meh wanna talk with Llamarble.

I'm just thinking I'm overthinking this, IAAU lynch = win, but Hoopla is v. possible from a setup perspective.

[Greymarble]

I honestly don't think this is scummy, because it's too fucking STUPID to be scummy.

In an open setup with KNOWN three scum, two of whom are DEAD, ABR unvotes IAAU because profont's vote is "scummy", then votes for confirmed town, then votes for someone who ISN'T PROFONT.

ABR, do you have some meta of going FULL FUCKING RETARD you can link to?

[Greymarble]

Like, not because I give a shit about meta

Just for the humor value

[Greymarble]

Hoopla: Fyi, Proph and I had a theoretical discussion before the game started, and agreed that if we rolled scum, we would probably go for nothing. So, I'm a little skeptical of the validity of your evaluation.

i'm slightly suspicious when someone voluntarily brings up stuff like this about themself, but the rest of the post is fine. he's helping us lynch iam-scum, what more do you want?

I agree. Slightly triggers the "scum really like to say truthful things" pattern.

As for ABR, his title is "Illogical Rampage"
ABR it'd be helpful if you'd let us know what you're thinking a little more.

[Greymarble]

Illogical rampage is fine. Crack-fueled delusional dribblings make me do a doubletake.

I'd be okay with a profont lynch, but I truly think IAAU claimed why he did his night kill. And all the other stuff. It's pretty hopeless for scum here, while town IAAU would still have a great chance to win after his lynch. Goddamn it, he hasn't even bothered to vote for someone. That's a pretty low level of "hope" for someone who was pretty engaged day 1. Do you gradually lose engagement over two days when you're having miserable failure or amazing success?

[Greymarble]

IAAU's response to the wagon on him absolutely is a good sign and we should continue.
I see it as 'this is basically a lost cause but I will do something that will hopefully give some people some doubts.'

I was just separately agreeing with Hoopla.

[Greymarble]

[Greymarble]

For fucks sake.

Lets lynch IAAU

Even if you get together a wagon on Shockwave, all that's going to happen is he's going to flip town, then we're going to win the game tomorrow. IAAU knows it, we know it, pretty much everyone except ABR knows it.

i am a VT who is going to go ahead and get that reread done right now.

Towel is in folks. It's been FIVE FUCKING DAYS since he said he'd reread. We lynched scum days 1 and 2. Town,

even if they're getting lynched

has a HUGE motivation to actually try and tell the rest of us what their suspicions are, since this game is very, very winnable for us (I'd say what, we've got two confirmed townies with 8 alive, that's pretty absurd). What do we get?

cool, go ahead, just make sure you're lynching Hoopla and ABR after me. everyone else is town.

Five days of rereads, folks. Five days.

[Greymarble]

Wisdom

ika kill makes notscience scum unlikely. why's he gonna kill the one guy who was actively defending him?

He claimed his scumshot.

Who kills ika? After screaming at you that NS was town and that our slot was scum, he decides to meekly sheep us onto the MTD wagon. And disavowed all responsibility for MTD's flip.

well you seem to be unaware of how much more experince porio has against me.

As for MTD, i'm not the one lining it up grayice started it and the others followed suit.

@519: so do i but if people are going ot be fuckign devided on all this shit im going with what is going to yeild the msot info at this time. and proio has brought up some vaild points.

For fucks sake, I've seen your scum play, you'd have mislynched him for that. I'd have mislynched him for that. Hoopla? ABR? They'd have slammed that into his face because both of them know that if you prod an angry person enough they'll blow up and get themselves lynched from sheer town frustration (frustration levels with Ika were fairly high when I got here, and with good reason).

Who shoots Ika?

[Greymarble]

ns shoots ika, we already covered that

~Wis

Wis, I love ya man, but - no offense to NS - he was not the brains of the scumteam.

[Greymarble]

For the record ABR, if you are scum, then you are pretty awesome.
I mean I am enjoying your existence regardless, but I'd be pretty impressed if you flipped eeeevil at this point.

I don't think it'll turn out to be Shockwave. Not impossible, but I would be surprised.
IAAU, Profont, Hoopla each COULD be scum but Hoopla has played a good protown & townsensemaking game.
I think it'll be IAAU or Profont, and IAAU has the more incriminating interactions. I'm not really sure between the two of them; it definitely could be Profont.

IAAU if you're town and you want to help us get a perfect lynches game, tell us why it's Profont and not you.
If you're scum I guess you can try and do the same or just let this game end and move on to the next.

[Greymarble]

You're confirmed town.

Vote IAAU

[Greymarble]

Like not "oh that player had a fight with a scumbag so they must be town."

Like mechanically confirmed, "you could claim bulletproof vigilante aligned with the Mafia and we wouldn't lynch you" confirmed.

[Greymarble]

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

[Greymarble]

Profont seems like the right move for today, but I'll do my readthrough this weekend.
It's kind of a busy time for me, but I'll do my best to remain useful.

[Greymarble]

I'm glad there's still a while before deadline.
We DO have 6 people alive; we should probably no lynch today or tomorrow.
Recalculation soon!

[Greymarble]

Revisiting Hoopla after much time away from the game, I can see her flipping scum.
It's not us or Bertkerb.
ABR Shockwave and Profont threw a few more townie flags.

If Hoopla actually is scum I'd be curious to hear postgame whether that first post was intentionally trying to make us perform a "that belonged in a scum QT, so she probably doesn't have one" leap.

P.edit: Yes, one reason Hoopla's a good choice was MTD's statements Re: Hoopla.

[Greymarble]

I remain open to no lynching; however confirmed someone may seem the guarantee is nice.

[Greymarble]

Vote: SR

I think it's Hoopla. Hopefully tomorrow I can read through again and give you more details.

UNVOTE:

I like this post because it makes it clear Shockwave read things to figure the game out instead of for the purpose of generating a nice post.

[Greymarble]

I can't remember why I'm not voting Shockwave. I looked it over and he should probably be the other wagon.
I really don't think omitting a scumbuddy is a convincingly unlikely event.

[Greymarble]

I like this post because it makes it clear Shockwave read things to figure the game out instead of for the purpose of generating a nice post.

Yeah, this wasn't very convincing.

[Greymarble]

Grey and I want to pivot to Profont.
Right now our lynch hierarchy goes Profont > SR > Hoopla > ABR > Us/Bert
VOTE: Profont
I'll go through the things we considered later tonight.

[Greymarble]

Hoopla

Okay, I really don't think Hoopla is scum. There's a number of reasons, but the major one is when she got pissy at Doge over his "we are the only ones doing anything for the town" stance. Here at #542 and #544 she's sparring with Rotti, clearly annoyed that he thinks he's the only one doing anything. This isn't something that scum tend to do. If anything scum-Hoopla would be pointing out other people's contributions, or something, other than just yelling at Rotti because she thinks her contributions are valid.

To both me and Llama, this is gold.

every wagon i try and get on collapses. but at least this is better energy from everyone, ripe for analysis tomorrow.

new head to head duel looks like greymarble vs. MTD.

i'm perfectly fine with lynching MTD. he's probably even a better choice than aisa, imo

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MTD

Good post, that plays well with her frustration with Rotti. It shows a consistent mindset - Hoopla is frustrated that the spammy tunneling is drowning people out. Here, this is completely consistent with that. It feels town perspective, and things like that are genuinely hard to fake. It's really hard to fake secondary motivations in a single post, nevermind over multiple posts on separate subjects. Most people (even very good scum) don't plan to that level, and if they do they certainly have trouble not overplaying it (the persistent whine of 'this game demotivates me that we hear so often)

Shockwave Rider

He's not great, but again he's tunneled that dead Hoopla = his win condition. This feels town, especially how he's very careful to push that. Again, there's scum that good. LLD loves that, especially wiggling out the 1v1 the day after. This doesn't feel like that. Especially the way he's trying to get us off Profont.

To scum-SR, us on Profont is a path to victory. For town-SR it's an annoyance that's preventing his scumread from getting lynched.

Profont

More later, but:

I have about a 0% chance of eating rope but you guys are welcome to try

Still here, still unlynchable.

Look somewhere else.

Sorry profont, we are down to but a single scum. We can't just move from one to another today, we have to find the last one.

[Greymarble]

Okay, so here is our chain of logic:
Both of us satisfied with ABR, Bert, us not getting lynched.
Started with MTD's reads list & SR-addendum, decided they worked okay with all three options (Hoopla, Profont, SR)

Leaned away from Profont scum due to MTD calling them "towntown," which is uncharacteristically strong for scum talking about a buddy.
Later, when we started to prefer Profont over the other options we found towntown a possibility from an MTD excited about how good his buddy's recent wall was.

Next we looked into Hoopla's proposed Aisa-notscience battle, and came across the Hoopla post we mentioned above.
Shockwave piggybacked in favor of protecting NS there (despite listing him as a scum candidate earlier) in a way that caused me to prefer Shockwave out of the 3.
Looking more at Hoopla, we remembered finding her town because of mindset tells like the above post, her attitude toward Aisa vs NS, "I won't lynch the following" and others.
At this point I leaned toward voting SR.

Then Grey brought up some recent posts from SR, including
"This looks like bs. There's no reason to be fine with your lynch if your town. It just makes town more likely to lose. Heck I haven't done anything to make myself look like town, but I'm not okay with being lynched. I'm a survivalistic little shit."
These made us less comfortable with an SR lynch.

Then we got to a few scumtells on Profont:

ika is probably town. His anger and scumreading of me are townie.

It certainly isn't the case every time, but scum more commonly play the "you're town, now go away" angle.
Profont's path to victory is clearly SR -> Hoopla, and those are the lynches they want. It's much murkier to look at Hoopla / SR and see scum trying to set up a victory path.
Profont essentially never mentioned NS, but showed keen awareness of my read on NS and its reversal. Scum tend to be highly aware of matters pertaining to their buddies.
When the game is hard, hydras are suspicious because they have more of a support system than scum typically have during dayplay.


I will certainly admit that this isn't a slam-dunk day, but I don't feel too good about lynching Hoopla at the moment and I do feel pretty good about lynching Profont.

[Greymarble]

I agree that MTD can fail to mention SRbuddy, particularly given he remembered 5 minutes later in a *doh!* way.

That being said, I still have no objection to a no-lynch today so I will just leave our vote on Profont

[Greymarble]

I think he's saying after he dies don't pick SR over Hoopla.
Reasonable thing for scum in his position to say though, other than the "this would suck a lot less" bit, which while possibly scum honesty is pretty well executed.

[Greymarble]

Where is Titus
Where is Titus
Did we win?
Did we win?

[Greymarble]

Well day 1 rocked but at this point if we win we played a good game and if we lose we played a mediocre game.
We should no-lynch today. I would like to review things for a while first though.

[Greymarble]

ABR is making zero sense.

Zero

Goddamn it.

But seriously, fucking chill.

[Greymarble]

I drove to Philadelphia and back yesterday and spent today with LLD.

In short, screw you I haven't read jack shit

[Greymarble]

Honestly our reads past day 2 have been so trash I don't know what to say. Except that if it's ABR me and Llama are both prepared to lose to that 1% chance.

Anyway, I owe this a thorough reread and will soon, hopefully getting ahold of Llamarble too. But if not, I am prepared to fly solo (yes, blame me for losing the game, dead thread, it's my fault not Llama's or anyone else's)

[Greymarble]

Then it turns out to be ABR and our reads were hypertrash.

[Greymarble]

Eh even if it's ABR we started well enough that this is a mediocre game not a terrible one.
The difference between good and meh really is just whether we win.
Anyway, time for some possibly last words...

[Greymarble]

That didn't take as long as re-comparisons sometimes take me, but I feel much better about lynching SR than Hoopla.
Albert next.

[Greymarble]

Yeah, I will be very impressed if Alfred's scum.
I feel good enough about this to vote SR and see what happens; Grey can place it if he agrees.
Would also still be 100% okay with no-lynching, but if it's Alfred (only situation where no-lynching could be useful) he probably wins anyway by killing us, so it's not like we actually reduce scum win probability.

[Greymarble]

I have doubts; I won't call this a guaranteed win, but I don't think it's all that likely I'll change my mind.

[Greymarble]

Main cause for mind-changing would be Grey disagreeing here.

[Greymarble]

no scum

[Greymarble]

Well poop I was hoping to No Lynch and get night killed so we didn't have to decide.

Lemme talk to Llama.

I'm inclined to trust him here.

Although that tell...

*sigh*

It's unquestionable Hoopla is playing a better game than Shockwave Rider. I think even Shockwave would admit Hoopla is a better player. If only the bad ones got scum all the time.

[Greymarble]

My points about Hoopla town are very good. Hoopla is just very good at faking her town game.

The one time I caught her was because of a heavy mechanic based game with scum choices (and I outguessed her mechanics), and she got me lynched anyway.

[Greymarble]

Which, by the way, is no mean feat to mislynch me. I give her mad props for that.

[Greymarble]

...

And now I...

*sigh*

[Greymarble]

So many

good points

and I feel

You want to hammer

[Greymarble]

UNVOTE: VOTE: notscience

This looks like fishing for towncred.

Because we spend time arguing and then gauge how people react to it

But it does jack shit now

This is just it though. Your post looks like an attempt to gain towncred by "generating discussion" by doing something outside the box. With the way this game has been going I think that would be a good way for scum to fish for towncred. I notice you haven't drawn any conclusions from the reactions so far.

Sorry I haven't been on. I'll get in a reread and say more later today.

These two posts and the way SR doesn't really participate in either of the two subsequent NS wagons (NS vs Aisa and NS start of D2) feel right for treatment-of-buddy.

[Greymarble]

The accusation is trumped up in the first place; I don't know that SR bothers to point it out without the additional factor of NS being interesting because buddy.

[Greymarble]

And yes, Hoopla is very good at scum or I'd feel a lot more confident.
I do think the following posts point to her being town though:

soz bbe, u scum. shoulda just played it cool

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dragon alliance

Getting into the trenches early (this is a bit more antagonistic than some reasons and a vote) is a good sign.

also, as happy as i am that rottweiler was defending me and seemingly explaining things for me, it seems weird for him to invest himself in it so much. i think the neutral "voice of reason" role is often taken up by scum because it is a cheap way to score town cred without much risk. soooo, keeping an eye on that

Why are you townreading/defending me is simply less common for scum to say than it is for town.

i know some people probably won't like this style of play/logic, but i'm basically at the point where i won't lynch a handful of people, but will lynch anyone else.

won't lynch: greymarble, ika, abr, rottweiler

iam's recent posts have been fine and he tends to come good once he's interested, so add him to that list too.

everyone else i don't really have any town tells on, so consider my vote on all of them.

Hoopla showed a proactive & matter of fact attitude throughout this game.

cool.

aisa vs. notscience head to head battle.

everyone who hasn't picked a side yet, do so plz

I've mentioned this before but at the time the votes for NotScience were me and Rottweiler, so setting up the day phase as Aisa vs NS would be putting a buddy into a risky situation.

he's done nothing town either. he's getting flashwagoned as a compromise as far as i can tell, and as long as scum isn't the driving force behind the flashwagon (greymarble), it being a flashwagon isn't really suspicious.

i am actually kind of suspicious of your white-knighting of MTD, especially if he flips town. you're displaying too much certainty over what is essentially a null-ish slot.

"If the wagon of the day flips town, I'm looking at X" is a statement that (for a scumbag) feels like stepping into a trap. It's works against instincts developed in a lynch liners up of lynches meta.

Besides I will clearly need allies tomorrow, when I will 200% not be alive

no offense, but why would scum want to get rid of your spammy tunneling? the only reason is if greymarble is scum, but even then, keeping you alive is probably beneficial for them anyway because you have little credibility and just post noise.

as an aside (i was going to save this for tomorrow when i do a proper analysis): i am not as super-convinced on the sakura/greymarble slot like i was initially - your counterexample was convincing enough to bring it back to nullish, but llamarble is a valuable town player who i don't want to see die today, which is why i didn't bother correcting my read on this slot. greyice also seems to be able to read me ok from when i've played with him, so that is incentive for me to keep him alive too. i also think his "i'm so obtown, scum are scared of me" posturing is likely to be town, most because boisterous players who claim obvtownness like that do tend to be really motivated as town, and less so as scum. Tierce, hitogoroshi and Llamafluff are other examples of players who exploit that obvtown transparency angle as town, but suck at doing it as scum. i reckon greyice is probably similar.

regardless, i want to wait until tomorrow to look ar them properly after the fallout of today, and see what analysis llamarble brings to the game.

so, that's why we shouldn't lynch that slot atm.

It's hard for scum to hesitate in their townreads of slots that are already difficult to lynch and will probably be obvtown the rest of the game.
And yes, "why would scum want to get rid of YOU?" sounds like something annoyed town would say.

[Greymarble]

Here are some things about Hoopla:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: sakura

Naked votes are something that I see more often as scum and are something I'm more tempted to do when I'm scum. Not a huge tell but it is something.

Next I don't like the attack on Dragon Alliance. I feel that wagon was on low hanging fruit ad the kind of thing scum would flock to. Also after a week of the game had passed Hoopla basically hadn't given any reads on any players other than DA. It's true the game was very slow but it could be scum not actually curious about determining the alignment of others but just doing the minimum to look like they have a justified vote.

i've suddenly lost motivation for this game. don't know why, but i'm happy settling on my vote for profont. he needs to be one of the lynches either today or tomorrow, so lets just get it done.

I feel like if Hoopla is town, she should have more confidence that Hoopla is scum. She seems to think I'm not likely scum because of the setup choice thing. So who does she think the other scum is then Albert? She doesn't seem to have much confidence in Albert scum or reason to believe it. It's also not a very good read imo.

VOTE: Hoopla

Also this post is simply scummy. It's logicked out like an excuse instead of an explanation.
"A townie should be more sure of this!" + "I see more often not a huge tell I don't like I feel kind of thing it could be scum I feel like she seems she doesn't seem."

[Greymarble]

Well now that we're confirmed town, I guess there isn't any point to no lynching.
I disappear Friday, so hopefully Grey and I can find some time today to make a decision.

[Greymarble]

This game is going to keep distracting me until I surrender to my itchy trigger finger.
VOTE: Shockwave Rider

*ducks*

[Greymarble]

Never mind; it is going to keep distracting me until fliptime.

[Greymarble]

Llama has my full support.

Apologies for not being around, I'll explain later, but not really in the mood for mafia at the moment.

[Greymarble]

This was a good game regardless of who won.
12p is hard but town played well early and got ahead.
Hoopla is a hard read because she is good and does not obvtown.

[Greymarble]

Why didn't you kill us N1?
Was that first post a suggestion that you didn't have a scum QT to ask those questions in?