Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Mathdino]

I do still trust bork, but until he can sound off on this whole conversation, I can't leave my vote on you.

UNVOTE:

Funny how one conversation starts flipping both our reads, because I really do not know what to make of what you just did.

And yeah, bork would probably say this is all WIFOM anyway and I did all that to get you to unvote because I know he won't.

But you misinterpret my intentions. I didn't want you to unvote me, I wanted you to talk to me about the other players and to actually do some analysis yourself.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Mathdino

There are just things that don't sit well to me in his ISO and interactions today with people have been weird. I don't care how much he posts or how wordy those posts are.
I have compelling reasons to think others are town. acryon's trajectory on BMWS is a bit weird with his interaction with me - although his confusion as to why I'm just not getting it points to it making sense to him - but his ISO just doesn't read scum. I'm not sure how to articulate it. I do think one of the people pushing Constantine is probably scum because he was just such an easy target.

Oh, and hi bork, just want to preempt your saying that you have valid reasons to scumread me and that your case flowed naturally by pasting the first part of your case.

Yeah, it was created naturally. But your first point was literally "everyone else is town", at which point you started finding reasons to scumread me.

So once again, at least be honest about it, because I fully admit that I'm going after Newbie for PoE.

Edit: You said you're unvoting to prove a point. I don't really care what that point is, is what I'm saying.

[Mathdino]

@bork: Let's do this exercise again. Assume I'm town. What do you make of the convo I had with acryon followed by his unvote? Lemme know if you want me to say what I think first; I ask because I'm digging myself in a hole of WIFOM.

[Mathdino]

Actually, to hell with it, the entirety of acryon's D3/4 trajectory has been uber-townish and the weirdness of this convo isn't enough to outweigh that. Want to note that his BMWS case came first, and the fact that (insert post URL here because I'm too lazy to find it) he originally decided to treat Newbie as a better target than me is very telling. Willingness to think out of the box yet keeping the lynchpool the same size is not indicative of scum.

Newbie's case on BMWS is, as I said, way worse than acryon's and way more confbiasy, came after his, and came after her

already saying D2 that she'd lynch acryon after Constantine

. Post 1760. Then in 1823 she actually switched from Const to acryon. Her case on BMWS came with no explanation of how her lynch order suddenly changed as well.

It's Newbie.

[Mathdino]

You are literally the only person here that's townreading me.

[Mathdino]

Newbie,

you said D2 and 3 that the lynch order to victory was Riddleton, Constantine, acryon. Then you opened D4 with a case on BMWS and completely ignored acryon.

Please explain this shift.

[Mathdino]

This is now the 2nd person that has offered to die in this way. I think it is almost a certainty that one of you is scum.

Besides Riddleton.

Otherwise, I agree with this, and I think I might've given Newbie townpoints if she didn't pull almost exactly the same thing I did that ended with you unvoting. Gave me pause until I realised she didn't do it first.

However it should be noted that I think everyone here except BMWS has told us who's scum. So your "stop being a martyr and tell us who's scum" is irrelevant.

Edit: Oh hell.

[Mathdino]

And now I'm thinking 'too scummy to be scum'. Goddammit.

bork has correctly summed up this game. Watch what happens when the mod forgot to add a 3rd mason and bork was scum all along.

[Mathdino]

PoE is stronger than you think. That, and the fact that the only reasons I've ever had to townread you this game is A. initial gutread, and B. the TTH tell.

You, on the other hand, you hadn't PoE'd acryon out by the time you tunneled BMWS. No, you gave no indication that you were now removing acryon from the lynchpool and adding a former townread.

Edit: KNEW IT

[Mathdino]

acryon, if I'm lynched, who are you voting for in lylo? So basically, who's more scummy out of bmws and mathdino to you?

I wasn't interested in answering this question before, and I'm not interested in answering it now. You can probably draw some conclusions on your own, but if scum want the information, they are going to have to work for it.

What can I do to work for it

But seriously, Newbie, better lines of questioning. I don't find NOTHING scummy about the other two.

[Mathdino]

It was a joke based on the fact that you said "if scum want the information".

But yeah, okay.

[Mathdino]

Double negative. Unfortunately I'm not speaking a Romantic language and "I don't find NOTHING scummy" means "I do find some things scummy" in English.

Interesting reaction though.

[Mathdino]

What the hell is Newbie doing...?

[Mathdino]

Double negative. Unfortunately I'm not speaking a Romantic language and "I don't find NOTHING scummy" means "I do find some things scummy" in English.

Interesting reaction though.

So what are some things you find scummy about bmws and acryon?

VOTE: mathdino

I'm glad you branched out, but how did you get there from here:

It's either you or bmws for me. There is nowhere else to look.

This whole page.

So what you're telling me is you misinterpreted a statement I said, asked me a legitimate question, and then voted me based on 'this whole page', in which I made a statement you misinterpreted.

AFTER you acknowledge said misinterpretation.

What the actual fuck?

[Mathdino]

On acryon, at first glance I thought his backing off of me after that convo was a bit weird at which point I started WIFOMing it to myself, but like I said before, it makes sense with him being town. I didn't really want anything in particular.

Honestly, I've got nothing more to say. I've repeatedly presented BMWS towncases, I toldja why acryon's town based on D3/4, and the only thing Newbie's got going for her is the TTH tell. acryon's less than willing to discuss a plan for tomorrow and idk what Newbie's doing.

If you've got any questions, I'm open.

[Mathdino]

Newbie, I'm appealing to and asking town-you to trust me, unvote, and push acryon. That doesn't make you town. Did you do that just so I'd stop scumreading you?

Edit: I stop raging and attempt diplomacy with Newbie and acryon.

[Mathdino]

Because if you're not scum and you keep tunneling the person I most think is town, then we're all screwed. I wanted you to make a case on acryon to see what would come of it.

[Mathdino]

The thing is though, why would mathdino go after me when he was declaring me town at the very beginning after the wgeurts/Constantine mod kill? He could've kept it that way and went after an easier target. It just doesn't add up.

UNVOTE:

This is kinda what I already said earlier, but okay.

[Mathdino]

I want to believe acryon's not just coasting through this as a fencesitter knowing Newbie and I are probably gonna be lynched in succession. Reading through him D4 again.

[Mathdino]

I don't want to lock in if I'm a lynch target. If I had 2 lynches left, the game would be easy, just lynch Newbie and acryon in succession and win.

Unfortunately, I only have one lynch to push and I'm constantly second-guessing myself here.

Edit: Talking to them about each other, presumably.

[Mathdino]

That quickly turns into a game of 'who is better at arguing'

if only that were indicative of alignment

Yet talking and arguing to me became indicative of alignment.

@Newbie: Effort is not alignment indicative.

[Mathdino]

I stand by my statement that your townread of me even as you scumread BMWS is odd, to say the least. Your reasons for townreading me have never had that much substance.

[Mathdino]

Who are you talking to?

What is stuff?

[Mathdino]

1. 241 is not a response to a scumpartner.
2. The ol 'two sides to this town' (ain't big enough for the both of us) post, scum would not explicitly draw a line and step on the side with both their scumpartners.
3. 387 leads everyone STRAIGHT to Wisdom if wgeurts ended up getting lynched, which was a real possibility.
4. His 'why did you do that?!?!' to Malakittens after she hammered. This is gut. His response was literally EXACTLY how I'd have expected him to respond as town.
5. "I'm remembering [Wisdom] saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight." This must have come from town because if he were scum, he would've just asked Wisdom in the scum PT. He wouldn't have used that wording.
6. Puts Constantine at L-1 but tries to get the town to slow down the lynch until Const checks in.
7. The smoking... anti... gun?

Wait, so if you 3 are the masons, could someone explain the "specific setup-related thing" that happened starting with post 666? I thought that that was mason-related but it doesn't seem to be...

This. Could not have come from scum. He would've just asked scum in the PT.

I'd like Newbie's rebuttal to this in full if she wants to lynch BMWS today.

[Mathdino]

It sucks when the only person who properly understands my point when it came to wgeurts and mason-fishing is the person I want to lynch.

[Mathdino]

So just to be clear, you find my jumping on bad lynches outweighed by the more townish things I've done? Because your post also doesn't illustrate why BMWS is jumping on easy lynches and I'm just misguided.

Seriously? The fact that your posts have way more substance than bmws's, and

you actually searched up Riddleton's meta in terms of him voting his scum partners

all come off as genuine town to me and tip the scales in your favor.

Newbie

is

being consistent, I'll give her that.

Looking through BMWS again.

[Mathdino]

If I may kindly direct everyone to post 2063.

[Mathdino]

I'm not planning on responding to 2248, so you can go ahead if you feel like it.

[Mathdino]

Uh, no, I want BMWS to respond to it. If I try to engage it's just gonna end up in a cesspool of WIFOM.

[Mathdino]

I could look at Riddle and Constantine again. Maybe blindmewithscience. You, newbie, acryon and wgeurts are not people I would be lynching anytime soon.

Newbie confirmed town.

Agreed, this was one of the reasons I got a townread on Newbie, the way she thought I may be a mason felt really genuine.

and Wisdom flips town, Newbie is scum.

Nah, doubt it

Solely via PoE, prolly blindmewithscience

But don't really think it's acryon. His case and general attitude on me feels tunnely town. I expect scum to either be fairly neutral or WK me, in order to extract max cred with my flip. Which is why blindmewithscience and especially Constantine fit.

You had my thoughts already. Constantine and blindme most likely. Outside chance on Riddle.

I don't actually have any thoughts on this, but I had nothing better to do.

[Mathdino]

BMWS, I'm pretty sure you as scum would be someone who does stuff for towncred, considering that's half the point of being scum. Your response to 4-6 rests on the notion of your being town; most not-horrible town don't go for towncred.

[Mathdino]

acryon's not being here before deadline makes any lynch other than a Newbie one impossible.

BMWS, unless you've got more to say, you should hammer next time you're on. There's nothing more to do or say here.

[Mathdino]

I think we win.

[Mathdino]

Newbie isn't posting so nothing for sure. Though Wisdom has been posting elsewhere, does he usually post if he knows the game's over?

[Mathdino]

lol if it's BMWS, good game man.

[Mathdino]

dammit bork

[Mathdino]

NKA would've pointed toward acryon though...

BMWS had the ultimate easy win by killing you and letting me and acryon fight it out.
acryon on the other hand, would probably die if I overpowered him in endgame and swayed BMWS to my side.

Killing me or BMWS was the right move.

[Mathdino]

You have no idea how hard I facepalmed after you and bork started tunneling me.

[Mathdino]

At the end of the day the thing with the "If I were scum" argument came from utter disappointment in bork and acryon for latching onto me out of PoE and not even being able to recognise it. I was more than a bit surprised at bork rereading and ending up going with me as a result of having been wrong, and jumping on wgeurts for what I still think are legitimate reasons given what happened in Stack The Deck.

My ability to be townread wavers a lot when I talk about myself because my thought process is in itself kinda scummy IMO. Should probably have mostly ignored bork's accusations altogether like he asked.

[Mathdino]

Anyone got any advice? This is my first game since over a year ago.

[Mathdino]

I don't feel I was collapsing back there. Everything I said was 100% honest. The problem was I treated bork's attack as an attack on my logic, rather than as an attack on my alignment, so I immediately started defending said logic as not terrible.

Yeah, trying to use Stack The Deck was the crux of the issue that caused BMWS to sway toward me I think. I tunneled myself as town so hard that I was defending my logic and forgot to defend my alignment.

[Mathdino]

The dead thread is mostly everyone that I lynched immediately deciding I was scum xD
It's kind of hilarious to read through. I feel like it's a sort of posthumous OMGUS.

I was the only one yelling at you in the dead thread.

[Mathdino]

If Wisdom and MathDino aren't masons, I will just be dumbfounded because there's no other logical explanation that accounts for their interactions this game, especially on MathDino's end. That is, unless one, likely MathDino, or both of them are scum.

You wanna know what's really shitty.

Besides gut, VDA's meta research analysis and Wisdom being off the lynch and being abouestly hard-headed against it I wanna get him lynched.

I don't really see why MathDino is wanting is to get lynched one after another. It's lining up lynches if both Wisdom and I are town and I hate that. (

even then I'd still win over Wisdom

)

The bolding is mine. Mala's been saying things like this for a good portion of the game, which would only make sense if she knew for

absolute certain

she wouldn't be lynched (i.e. she has a role that can be confirmed). Combined with the fact that a good portion of people seem to not be scumreading her and/or ignoring her, I

originally

thought she was a mason. Not_Mafia seems like a likely partner if this is true. I'm not sure who makes sense as a third, though: possibly blindmewithscience.

If this theory is true, I'm baffled by MathDino's behavior this game. If he doesn't know Wisdom's alignment for certain, how can he be hanging on Wisdom's every word like this? The only reasonable answer I can come up with is that MathDino is scum.

If it's not Constantine, it's mathdino

So mathdino was scum? No shit.

At least it saved us two days, lol. It is probably to the benefit of town that this happened, because I and Wguert's would of probably been mislynched anyways. My only concern is that I planned to enter day four pressuring Mathdino harder than before. That's up to Bork now. This game is a prime example of why scum should mason hunt, and why masons should not fear claiming early into day one. It has pretty much backed scum into a corner, like I said it would.

[Mathdino]

I hope this is an example to follow my wagons in the future. As policy, you should only start wagons on people off the wagon, the day immediately after lynching scum.
Acyron and Mathdino, one of which is confirmed scum, should be our first and foremost priorities.
VOTE: Acyon

ahhhhhhhhhhh

oh goddamn

[Mathdino]

The best part of this is
the tells that we made for BMWS and Newbie were totally right.

All it takes is ONE

impenetrable

slip for someone's alignment to be obvious. One slip and everything else can be discounted.
And we shat on those.

Had we just gone with the mason team + BMWS + Newbie as conftown and lynched me and acryon we'd have won.
The NKs really were what threw me off. Leaving bork alive was a ballsy and a damn good move.

[Mathdino]

What are the funniest posts in the mason/scum threads?

[Mathdino]

Yeah, I buddied Wisdom too much early on. He was my strongest townread and his playstyle really spoke to mine. I do hope you can see why I did do that, though, and how it makes sense from a town perspective.

It really doesn't, regardless of what alignment you actually are.

If you're a vanilla townie,

I would have to think

there should be at least some degree of uncertainty surrounding your reads. You absolutely never wavered in the Wisdom townread though.

In fact, you were so deep in bromance mode, you answered my case on Wisdom

for

him.

The townread was so beyond a rational point that I thought it had to be from a mason.

To a slightly lesser degree, I actually got the same treatment from acryon and Constantine. I figured there were too many people with a really strong townread on Wisdom for him not to be a mason. And it was pretty obvious from my posts that I thought he was a mason, but no one corrected me and everyone just kept leading me on. The worst part is, I know at least one of acryon or Mathdino has to be town.

Now I just feel manipulated, used, and foolish.

I lol'd so hard at this.

HEY GUYS
I TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE NEWBIE/BMWS TOWNSLIPS
WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED IF I DIDN'T TOWNTUNNEL WISDOM

[Mathdino]

At what moment did you realise the mason team?
I actually really want to see what Wisdom has to say on this, because I have no idea if he actually scumslipped or not. bork was right in that that was the point of no return though and the game made no sense without him as scum.

[Mathdino]

I would've bossed this game so hard as scum xD
MASON HUNTING EXTRAORDINAIRE

[Mathdino]

I did some suspicion analysis that ultimately ended up being bad, and led me to a likely mason-team of BMWS/Mathdino/N_M

BMWS and I were odd about each other because I asked him to join this game.
I didn't want to townread him too hard early on but every single thing he said pinged me as town and honest him since I know his writing style. That's the other reason I was shouting at bork, because BMWS town was just so goddamn obvious but only to me

I think I kinda got lucky on Wisdom. The best point on Wisdom was his awkward interaction with Vic wagon

Disagree, best point on Wisdom was the "the entire mason team is my scumlist" shit that he kept doing. Had he backed off he might've avoided the lynch since you and I were the only townies really pushing him hard at the time.

[Mathdino]

Did anyone notice the twilight interaction? That's the other thing I really want to know. You'd think Mala would've died N1 since she softclaimed pretty hard.

[Mathdino]

^Yep.

acryon flip flopping on me halfway through yesterday pinged me so hard as scum, just by gut, but I couldn't realise what was off about it. So I asked you but you were already in {Mathdino, Newbie} mode so I just dropped it. I think the lesson here is we should all listen to our guts more.

[Mathdino]

I think the hilarious thing here is that literally everyone who offered themselves to be lynched (Riddleton, me, Newbie) were town, and the ONE guy who was like "I said we should CLEAR me, not kill me!" was scum.

Goddammit acryon.

[Mathdino]

@acryon
I've only read your first paragraph, but I can already see that your case is a bunch of confbias.

I could look at Riddle and Constantine again. Maybe blindmewithscience. You, newbie, acryon and wgeurts are not people I would be lynching anytime soon.

>inb4 we lynch everyone Wisdom calls scum

[Mathdino]

The kill on Cheetroy also should have pointed to him, no one else left was experienced enough to make that kill apart from maybe Mathdino

I really appreciate
how half of this game
thinks of me as some uber experienced player even though I've literally done 4 games
and the other half
thinks I'm a total noob
or maybe that's just Constantine...

[Mathdino]

wgeurts and Constantine getting modkilled should've won us the game since it gave us a confirmed town at 5p that we shouldn't have had otherwise.

[Mathdino]

>implying acryon is more likely than you to troll us

[Mathdino]

What acryon said, mod.

Can you release the scum/dead/mason threads?

[Mathdino]

Play with me more and pray to god we're both town. You and gangsta_duck are so easy to read

[Mathdino]

I don't think Mathdino kill is such a good idea. I think I have made him my follower, we think alike and push things together. Maybe that will change with the Victor flip, but most likely not. And I think kills made to drive suspicion away are kinda overrated, you want town to think that way but they end up not doing it and even thinking the opposite way.

Translation: I think I have made him my bitch.
xD
I really want to play with town-you now.

[Mathdino]

No shit I did more harm than good. What's important is I got him lynched D2. Also got information from buddying him like that in that he never questioned my townread of him like he said he usually does.

Don't blame a VT for looking like a mason. If Wisdom was town one of us probably would've drawn the NK. In D1, trying to find the masons and using that to find scum is extremely fallible. I honestly only think my D2 masonhunting was valid because there was pretty much no other mason team possible.

I townhunt, and I need to have some sort of constant to latch on to, to bounce reads off of because I legit can't work alone. Wisdom happened to be my constant this game, but I don't regret that because again, he got lynched just the next day.

[Mathdino]

Had you not advocated for your own PL I'd have left you the fuck alone. Your scumslip was rendered completely invalid and your response to my pointing it out was pretty townish.

Had you been more active, I think you might've dodged the lynch with overtly town behaviour D2. You're not bad at looking town when town, Riddleton. It's that defeatism that fucked you over.

[Mathdino]

Also, you completely nailed Victor, so I wouldn't say you were totally off. Seriously, I'd have listened pretty hard to your reads if you gave a bunch of cases and then self-hammered just due to the cred from the Victor lynch.

[Mathdino]

*Scum called your VDA case shit, and I hated it because I was tunneling you.

[Mathdino]

My case on SilverWolf came from a reads list. I honestly went in there expecting to townread her until I was like "Shit I have literally no reason to be townreading her".

Other than that I don't think I had any cases until D4.