Open 579: Pick Your (Chocolate) Power -- Game Over

[davesaz]

VOTE: gangsta_duck41

[davesaz]

Not particularly, but why do you ask?

you were the first player to not rvs vote
wondered why

What was that vote right before yours?

[davesaz]

And don't forget our kitty! He's sleeping next to the keyboard which is good, because he's sleeping not NO the keyboard. And everyone knows if I didn't post anything about him that would be scummy.

Not disparaging the kitty in any way, but this feels trust-telly to me. Don't remember if you've mentioned him in my other games you've been in.

[davesaz]

And don't forget our kitty! He's sleeping next to the keyboard which is good, because he's sleeping not NO the keyboard. And everyone knows if I didn't post anything about him that would be scummy.

Not disparaging the kitty in any way, but this feels trust-telly to me. Don't remember if you've mentioned him in my other games you've been in.

I think Aneninen just likes to talk about the kitty. Research showed that the kitty is mentioned in a completed game where Anen was scum. The other games where I didn't remember if it was mentioned can't be used as evidence yet anyway. The "everyone knows" language is what made me want to look. It looks like kitty mentions are a recent thing.

[davesaz]

I have mixed feelings on the setup speculation. Past results don't necessarily predict the future, for several reasons. I think hunting scum by behavior is much more accurate than hunting by setup. And when people claim I think it would be a big mistake to read alignment solely from the claimed role. But general discussion of strategies can be useful at times. I can occasionally read scum from the options they leave out of strategy discussions.

Mathdino, was there anything specific which led you to respond the way you did to my comment regarding the possible trust tell?

Aneninen, is there any particular reason you mangle people's names? I have found it disconcerting.

Flubber's RVS is not out of character for him, IMO. I think there will be a lot more to read from his 2nd round of comments.

[davesaz]

I often post my opinion without regard to whether it happens to match things that others have posted. I don't see having similar opinions to others as being alignment indicative, unless that's the only thing someone posts.

[davesaz]

On the 'helpful townie' thing, I basically need to be involved and responding to people to stay on top of it. Side effect of extraversion. If I DON'T respond to people constantly and get input, I'm liable to forget things.

I was asking if your response to me was intended to be "helpful". I think your later reply was a "no" to this question.

Pedit: I have seen scum play which was blatantly pro-town on other sites, and have scum read people for doing it here. I was even correct on this point in the first newbie game I replaced into, but didn't follow through on it strongly enough. So "look at all the town stuff I'm doing" can indeed be scummy.

Oh, look, I'm agreeing with someone. The horror!

[davesaz]

@Flubber: I see evidence of an alt, but what makes you think Thor?

[davesaz]

I'd like alchemist to do be so as well however I'm unsure on him.

This makes it sound like you want to assume alchemist is town and find evidence to match. I don't see any town motivation for doing that. In fact it seems rather scummy to want to find a way to town read someone.

[davesaz]

Anem suggested amy was scummy
For being concerned with which picks are bests for scum

Scum have day talk
I don't see why scum would ask the public
When they could discuss in private

One possible underlying reason for scum asking a question like Amy did was to determine town's thoughts on the matter ahead of the point where a claim would be necessary. Knowing town's opinions on the subject, along with possibly ferreting out the town roles via the discussion, would help scum choose which role of the pair to claim. Just because scum have daytalk doesn't mean they won't discuss a topic with town in the open.

How do you evaluate Amy's posting if daytalk is ignored? Is it scummy if viewed from that position?

[davesaz]

Someone speak with meh.

I'm having trouble following your case. Could you lay it out with a bit more structure, like the progression of posts you saw?

[davesaz]

Help I don't know what to post.

Was this meant to be first person, as in you don't know what to post, or sarcasm about wgeurts?

[davesaz]

Anyway, I don't have a lot to go off and yes my scum find is slightly non-serious.

How convenient. No, I didn't repeat my meta, I was just joking.

We need to however get discussion going as it's stalled around page 6. The scum will of cause lurk in this as it benefits them. So yeah, my vote is basicaly summed up as "Anen seems oportunistic". It's day 1 and we need discussion, get it going.

I agree that things are going slowly. Not pleased at all with there being 2-3 lurky slots already.

[davesaz]

I did a quick search, Amy's not experienced, let's take that off the table.

I understand your doubt on the wgeurts thing, so I'll just go ahead and page

Alchemist

droog

Anyone who's played with wgeurts of both alignments

I want to confirm this, because I think this is a valid tell.

[Removed ongoing games reference ~insanity

]

[davesaz]

Sorry about that.

Moving right along, is there an actual case against Amy? Or we're shaking the trees to see what falls out? I'm not necessarily against that, but would like to know what the wagon is about.

[davesaz]

Spoiler: Venrob

Ok, so i've done a bit of a skim read so far. I am SOOO pissed and surprised that 4 got the top pick. I mean 1235 all got doubled up, but 4 of all numbers got top.... 4 is always the one that everyone chooses.

Given I hav e a history with this setup... and not a good one... I just hope this game doesn't go to shit for town like it always does.

For reference purposes, Open 472: Town of Lottery Addicts is the only game i have completed of this setup. I also failed to mod it once, and played a game which got abandoned once. Bad luck. In Open 472, I was one of the 4 people who picked the number 4- and had second to last place. I still didn't end up VT though- I got vengeful. But town didn't believe my roleclaim, and believed scum at lylo.... So hopefully I don't make it to lylo, because whenever I do town loses. Unless I become confirmed town before lylo, then I'm fine with living

Anyway, for rvs vote.... why not VOTE: Siveure DtTrikyp


Also for number theory, I have found that picking a semi-high number generally results in high draft order, because everyone doubles up below you. That is why I picked a high number, and I presume same goes for siv.

Either way, I hope this game doesn't go to shit because of me like every game I play does.

No, I'm saying that if the town decides to lynch me even though I am town, I'd rather it not be at LYLO.

Reads? Not really. I don't get reads this early into Day 1. If you wish to confirm that, you can check out my other games- that's what I pretty much always say regardless of alignment.
And if I seem defensive, please note my 1 town win and 6 town losses.

I have played scum, 2 wins 3 losses as scum compared to 1 win 6 losses as town. My first game here was a scum game, and it got to lylo (2 scum 3 town.) The only reason I won is that one of the townies had a scum read on the other 2 and a town read on me and my partner. If not for that, I would have been lynched really early. I think everyone was giving me benefit of the noob considering it was my first game on-site. I played really badly... but still won.

In my other game i won as scum, I got dayvigged on day 1. My partner, solo, went on to win the game.

So I don't really have any great scum accomplishments. And my 1 town win was a masons and mafia setup, which honestly seems easy to win for town considering the mafia kept killing themselves XD

So I don't really have a good history, everyone always reads me as scum.

If you want to look for yourself, all completed games are on my wiki.

UNVOTE:
Still had an rvs vote out.

OK, so i've caught up a bit... and honestly the only thing I'm getting as far as reads is mathdino seems townie to me. I don't have the time right now to make a big post or anysuch or to read into peoples posts and analyze, but I will be back later today for a better read of the game. Just got up, haven't even had breakfast yet but wanted to make a post while I had a minute.

So we have:
Games go to shit when you're in them
Everyone reads you scum
You have a terrible record
Don't have time right now

We're gonna need to see a lot more than a bunch of AtE, or this is going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[davesaz]

I wanna talk to Hayoto.

You haven't said much. Was there anything particular about Amy you didn't like?

[davesaz]

Do you have some reads? Or comments on the last two or three pages?

Pedit also post 2

[davesaz]

Addendum: Your lines of questioning suck, no offence. Your thoughts on setup spec and Flubber are enough to stop me from scumreading you, but yeah, those questions along with the paragraph on setup spec that mostly parrots popular opinion is kinda useless.

My "oh the horror" line was in response to this.
I dont see my posting style as useless. I tend to not be aggressive as either alignment. Get over it.

[davesaz]

– or, you could have talked about OTHER PRs too. A I the only one who noticed that there had been a lot of talk about the Vig and the Vengeful while basicly nothing about other PRs?

Are you sure about that?

[davesaz]

Davesaz's posts look like an attempt to look busy without actually doing anything for the town. He asks plenty of questions to people but has rarely given his own input on matters. His lengthiest posts are about things that really won't go anywhere, like discussing the Kitty comments.

I often find it more revealing to ask questions while not giving my own view. Doing it that way avoids the issues inherent in leading questions.

[davesaz]

– or, you could have talked about OTHER PRs too. A I the only one who noticed that there had been a lot of talk about the Vig and the Vengeful while basicly nothing about other PRs?

Are you sure about that?

I didn't say that it would have been a good idea. I only said it would have been less scummy if she had done that.

Wrong end of the sentence. Are you sure there has been nothing about the other PRs?

[davesaz]

Ah ok thanks.
Mathdino who do you think are scum?
Also thoughts on the lurkers?
I feel like we should pressure them to get discussion.

Any special reason you didn't act on this idea of pressuring people? I find it to be very passive, and the one liners since then are even worse.
VOTE: wgeurts

[davesaz]

@mod Flubbernugget may need a prod

[davesaz]

My vote is there because you don't seem to be scum hunting, and only for that reason.

[davesaz]

BTW, I had rejected voting wgeurts way back at 168 but screwed up the explanation.
There is town meta of him showing concern about lynching PRs. But I later thought his slow play was uncharacteristic of him as town. Cautious yes, but not slow.

I think Mathdino's jump off the wagon could be scum not wanting to remain first on the wagon if wgeurts flips town. The early vote could even be a catchphrase bus, with the wagon building as the reason to jump off and then be surprised if wgeurts flips scum. This gives me reason to watch Mathdino more closely, though not enough to tip the scales given how much pro-town activity he has had.

[davesaz]

That's similar to my reaction to the Amy wagon, though I didn't say anything about it.

[davesaz]

@droog, there are several wagons, which one are you referring to?

[davesaz]

I think that Siveure DtTrikyp is trying too hard to buddy me.

Spoiler: quotes

Help I don't know what to post.

Was this meant to be first person, as in you don't know what to post, or sarcasm about wgeurts?

Me.

I don't have a clue what to say.

Don't really like the way math distances from the amy wagon after leaving it...

I did a quick search, Amy's not experienced,

let's take that off the table.

About math's distancy stuff, this.

Oh.



Let's take this off the table.

UNVOTE: amy farrah fowler

Really not feeling this wagon any more.

I don't think conflicting or contradictory opinions makes her scummy, and there's not an enormous amount otherwise.

Also, Anen's latest post looks really confbiasy. So what if she's not scumhunting?

IN OTHER NEWS, dave has put down a non-rvs vote. This is BIG NEWS. Lets support this!

VOTE: wgeurts

While I don't mind people town reading me, it doesn't fit well (or even at all) with the rest of his posting. The wgeurts vote is straight up sheeping, despite the commentary in the post. Even more ironic is that the point of my vote was to pressure wgeurts into doing something, and it gets sheeped by another player who isn't really hunting. And the buddy act continues on later.

VOTE: Siveure DtTrikyp

@Ankamius, you may recall that I don't like naked votes.

[davesaz]

@Ank, yes you did.

@Mathdino, it's starting to creep me out that you get creeped out by the wagons. I expect some of the wagons I'm on early to grow, and some to go nowhere. It would have to be reaching the L-3 or higher level to really bother me. Wagons that get that far are much more revealing than ones which evaporate at 4 votes.

I note in this case that the reasons that people voted for are not all the same.

[davesaz]

Should be 8 to lynch, and thought we peaked at 4. Though I'm not paying attention to keeping mental count, TBH.

It's essential to keep the wagon at a pressure level long enough for the target to respond, since that response is important input to reads. Though one thing to keep in mind is that daytalk lets scum organize a hammer easier.

[davesaz]

Fwiw i inferred a different crumb. Antitown to explain.

v/la till sunday evening mst

Noted.

[davesaz]

I think Mathdino's approach listing sets of people by draft order is interesting for speculation but i dont see it as anything that can be relied on.

[davesaz]

The groups are too small for the low med high assumption. The doubles cant even be ruled out if scum wanted to break pattern.

[davesaz]

Back from my road trip. Apparently very little has changed.

[davesaz]

Running through the players. Doing this in chunks to try to avoid text walls.

I previously posted my reasons for thinking Siv is scum. Haven't really seen anything to change it. An analysis of the wagon stall should be worthwhile.

From what little Romitelli has posted, I get a weak scum. He questions Amy about the setup speculation. Points out a contradiction between two of Amy's posts, which can be paraphrased as "Mathdino dragging out theory discussion" and "There was nothing else to talk about yet".
At best it isn't really a contradiction, and I lean toward this being scum pushing a false/fake contradiction.

Venrob has substantial meta for a chronic internet problem. I didn't like the other parts of his AtE. Overall I can't get a solid read, very null.

I did not like the way that farside was approaching the vig / vengeful discussion. The "if I were a vengeful I would kill X" thing seemed like role fishing. I didn't understand how droog's "no confidence in Amy wagon" post was scummy, as town could also have low confidence. But 406 showed good analysis, and the overall feeling is townish.

Ankamius feels town. The analysis in 447 feels legit.

Wgeurts feels town. My vote on him was only for pressure, and he handled it well. His efforts to get / keep discussion going seem legit.

[davesaz]

Droog feels weak town. The observation that Mathdino gets cold feet on every wagon is a good one. Meta analysis of flubber is accurate from what I've seen.
But the vote on Aneninen and stating in 467 that he'd like a compromise lynch will turn scummy if Siv is lynched and flips scum.

Flubber is null leaning town, via meta.

Adrien pretty thin, not enough to read. null

Alchemist is pretty interesting.
177 points out double standard on sheeping. 233 more about the sheeping. But did this double standard actually go anywhere? I don't think so, would have to look.
272 rules out Mathdino and wgeurts being scum buddies based on draft order. I'm not sure I buy this completely. Scum could pick the same number on purpose to make people think they can't be buddies. A scum team with one high and two low would make fairly good sense. This makes me want to check interactions between alchemist, wgeurts, and Mathdino.

Alchemist makes a point that scum might bus Siv, if siv is scum and got null. Good point... But in my experience, scum often point out potential reasons to bus when they are bussing, so that the suspect pool is larger after the scum flip. So pointing out the opportunity to bus is actually null or slightly scummy, not the obvious town you'd think on the surface.

All things considered, I get a weak scum on Alchemist. It needs associations to make it a real case, which we don't have yet.

[davesaz]

Amy's 239 and 287 engage in point by point with Aneninen. 338 is trying to extend the case on Aneninen. 434 and 439 respond to criticism of her case on Anen by asking her critics to point out exactly where she's a hypocrite. This seems to be a reasonable approach. Weak town read.

Aneninen's posting style is a mixture of matching what I have seen before (but cannot be quoted) and different from what I've seen before. Previous experience has tended toward longer posts. I have seen some tunneling. The analysis in 389 looks town motivated, though scum could also do that if it would either clear a buddy or frame a townie. It may be strange to say this on someone with so many posts, but my read is null. I don't know how to read the change in posting style, and some of the posts which seem town have plausible (and perhaps even expected) scum possibilities.

------------------------------------

I saved Mathdino for last because there is so much information.
Lots of setup speculation. I'm not really comfortable with town trying to direct vig / vengeful because of the high probability that outspoken scum could control it by urging town to make bad suggestions. 50 looks busy but boils down to null reads. Votes Amy in 68 for "doing x would be useful as scum", which is a pretty null thing to say. More vig/vengeful discussion.

Post 137 "I'd like farside and Hayate to be town" jumped out at me, this always strikes me as odd. Post 145 could be role fishing. 152 switches to wgeurts, but would get back on Amy if necessary. 260 unvotes wgeurts, worried about wagons forming easily. (I disagree, the time to be worried is when they dissolve easily). Says in 269 that the amy wagon was different.

314 creeped out about people joining wagons he starts. This bothered me a bit, as town I want people to join my wagons. I can see that it's about the speed of the wagons, but even that is questionable to me as others could easily be reacting to what they see happening in the thread, not to who started the wagon.

375 is the post where he splits the player list into groups which "can't be scum together". This post is one which looks townie but is probably more useful to scum. 378 is again on the setup speculation. 426 unvotes (from Siv) 449 votes Alchemist, doesn't have a "top 3" -- has 2 lists based on flips. Looking back at that...

If Siv's scum: Siveure, Romitelli, Amy, wgeurts, Adrien, Ankamius
If Siv's town: Alchemist, Aneninen, Amy, wgeurts, Flubbernugget, Ankamius

Which boils down to siv+romitelli+amy/wgeurts vs. Alchemist+Anen+amy/wgeurts. I find it interesting that the 3rd scum position, in both of these lists, is Amy or wgeurts, who he unvoted as being creeped out about how fast the wagons went. If he really thought they were scummy, why jump off the wagons so fast?

Overall, I get a weak scum on Mathdino.

[davesaz]

davesaz for the earlier posts in his ISO I mentioned before.

I don't really get this. I pointed out something of the form "anyone knows if I don't do x it's scummy" (in a game state where we were basically still in RVS), and then posted that I had researched it and that it wasn't unusual. How is that in any way scummy? From someone with meta saying that I'm getting old and I tend to post immediately when I see something, vs. trying to remember that I need to research it? (That meta may not yet be in a usable state, TBH)

[davesaz]

davesaz for the earlier posts in his ISO I mentioned before.

I don't really get this. I pointed out something of the form "anyone knows if I don't do x it's scummy" (in a game state where we were basically still in RVS), and then posted that I had researched it and that it wasn't unusual. How is that in any way scummy? From someone with meta saying that I'm getting old and I tend to post immediately when I see something, vs. trying to remember that I need to research it? (That meta may not yet be in a usable state, TBH)

The kitty case makes absolutely no sense and there's no way you can link that to alignment either directly or indirectly, making it a bogus point. The argument that it helps end RVS can't really be used either since your ISO#4 has very little content for the amount of words in it. The entire sequence doesn't really make sense from a town mindset.

Let's make this very clear. If anyone does X, and then says "if I don't do X then I'm scummy", I'm going to research that as a possible trust tell. Period. It's the definition of trust tell, as I understand it. I did research it, and there was no evidence that it actually was one, and there was evidence that it was new and a joke, so I posted that Anen was cleared on that point. That was the entire point of ISO 4, and I used that many words because I didn't want it to be an otherwise empty post.

This is as town as it gets. The mindset it doesn't make sense for is the scum mindset.

[davesaz]

Please explain how 375 is more useful to scum. The idea of "looks townie but is probably more useful to scum" is something that really needs to be backed up with something, because otherwise it's a "too townish to be town" argument.

I put this post in the same category as ruling out the possibility that scum wouldn't pick two numbers the same.

Eliminating

possibilities is good for scum, because it prevents town from reading the other player in the set as scum once the first one flips. The correct town mindset is that it's

unlikely

that scum picked two numbers the same, or it's

unlikely

that there are two scum in this set of players. Thinking that it's impossible for a player to be scum is the foundation for scum winning.

Is this just a terminology thing? Maybe. But I'm not in a big rush to dismiss the difference.

[davesaz]

As scum you don't want people to join your wagons? Last I checked, goal of scum was to survive and mislynch. You're comparing our playstyles where it's not applicable; I'm fairly cautious especially when weirded out. The speed of those wagons, the majority of the votes of which were without reason and pretty much sheeping, was just bad. Read my posts before you set up a straw man.

Hope you don't mind my going a point at a time and not necessarily in order...

I did read your posts. There are 4 possible orientations to this topic, presented in the totally arbitrary order of scum first, then town:

1. Scum, doesn't want an actual wagon to take off. Examples of this orientation are establishing an early bus to distance, but not wanting the buddy to actually get lynched. Also establishing a pattern of vote hopping to disguise later vote hops when the hop is needed to get a mislynch.

2. Scum, does want a wagon. Two possible reasons, wants a mislynch, or wants to get to L-1 to prompt a claim and out the PR.

3. Town, doesn't want a wagon. RVS votes are the obvious example, also town may kick off a wagon as a reaction test and want to dismantle it as soon as a good reaction is seen.

4. Town, does want a wagon. Two cases for this one, the target is a real scum read, or it's getting close to deadline and town prefers a mislynch to a no-lynch.

Cases 1 and 3 are the relevant ones to examining why someone leaves a wagon. Town, in case 3, will usually acknowledge that the target responded well to the test. Scum, in case 1 when the original motivation was to bus and distance, can use the "good response" reason to leave the wagon when their partner does actually respond well. If the partner hasn't responded well, scum have to manufacture a bogus reason to leave the wagon, or have a decent wagon to jump to. If scum are trying to establish a vote hopping pattern, it's actually beneficial to just hop without giving a reason for leaving the old wagon.

What I struggle with is fitting your stated reason for leaving the wagons into case 3. If you originally thought the target was scummy, it would be a case 4 and you'd want to try to lynch. So you didn't think the target was lynch worthy in the first place, or you did find the target scummy at that time and your stated reason "the wagon went too fast" is the truth. But with 3 scum and wagons reaching 4 or 5 votes, there is no real danger of a quick lynch. Why not let it cook for a while and see if the wagon grows any more? Thinking the wagon grew too fast, and in particular thinking that the majority of the votes are sheeping, ignores the possibility that town merely agreed that the target is scummy.

This makes me think that case 1 is a possibility. But you do correctly point out that this could just be a difference in style.

P-edit. 375 could also be a difference in style. I'm a "never say never" player. That does not mean that I think that the combinations are likely. I agree that there are some unlikely combinations, but that does not prevent me from investigating them anyway.

[davesaz]

@MathDino
You're doing a good job of making people suspicious, I think it's however incorrect. The amount of effort you're putting in would be odd as scum.

I've seen scum put in even more effort, many times. And that does factor into my scum hunting, on a case by case basis.

[davesaz]

davesaz, what I find hard to reconcile about your manner of scumhunting is as a "never say never" player you're awfully black and white. You:
1. Assume that these 4 cases are all that's possible.
2. Attempt to shoehorn my behaviour into one of these 4 cases.
3. Assume what I WOULD do which is a blatant oversimplification.
4. Straw man again on why I left those wagons.

I thought Amy was scummy. The speed at which everyone jumped on her wagon made me uneasy however, and made me think it might be scum motivated. I'm unsure of this, but the circumstances were very odd.

I thought wgeurts was a little bit scummy based on a tell I thought I saw, so I voted him basically to see where it'd take me. It took me to L-2 again, with a ton of unwarranted votes that don't at all match wgeurts's scumminess. I jumped off to regroup and do some wagon analysis.

Everyone suddenly agreeing with me on those wagons is strange and unrealistic from my POV. Perhaps I AM ignoring the possibility that town agreed he was scummy, but even then, you're attacking my logic, not my alignment.

Also, I have to reiterate that the only way that my ruling out of possibilities is scummy is if you believe that 2 scum picked the same draft. Otherwise, if I were scum and we all picked 3 different numbers, that PoE doesn't help scum at all. So do you think wgeurts and I are scum? Furthermore, since you're speculating that this fits into 'case 1', why would I NEED to distance from my partner when there's already incredibly solid evidence we're not scum together? Unnecessary risk.

1. On these being the only 4 cases, if you can name another I'm all ears.
(pre-empting the "changing one's mind" scenario, in logic terms that becomes the position you're changing to)
2. It's only shoehorning if there are other valid cases.
3. I think I'm comparing what you did do to what players of either alignment might do. I would not presume to say I know for a fact what your intent was.
4. I don't think you're using the term "strawman" in the same way I would

I agree there is a difference between being town with different logic (note I'm not even going to call it faulty), vs scum.
If you carefully read my conclusion you will find that I'm not sure which interpretation fits this evidence.
Given I'm not voting you, and my read was weak to begin with, there is plenty of time to update it one way or the other depending on how the game progresses.

[davesaz]

Not so sure of my read on Ankamius. All of his scum reads seem opportunistic and/or shallow. The strong town read on Alchemist is also pretty shallow.

[davesaz]

I wouldn't put it past clever scum to double up and have the 3rd scum pick a separate number. It might be something I'd do out of audacity. Agree on everything else though.

I will point out that this scenario is exactly what I used to say that 375 (?) shouldn't be used to rule people out as possible scum.

pedit: droog, it doesn't work as well when you go post by post like that. Especially with the really early stuff. This would give you a nice post count but not necessarily town points.

[davesaz]

I'm seriously conflicted now. The Siv wagon got resistance, which often means it's hit scum. But it could be that the relatively quiet people believe the VT claim and just haven't been active in finding an alternative. I see the reason for the case on Mathdino. Haven't had time to go deep on Alchemist to see if there is a case. On the numbers game, I look at the suggested low, middle, high spread and get lots of plausible scum combinations, but it dissolved quickly into WIFOM. I still can't put an alignment on Anen from a meta point of vew, the difference I noticed is still there but the comparison games aren't complete.

I know this doesn't come to any conclusions. Guess it's really just an elaborate prod dodge along with an acknowledgment that there is work to do.

[davesaz]

Simplest approach is to post again with the correction. (Edit By Way Of Post, or EBWOP)