Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[eyestott]

/confirm

[eyestott]

this game will be interesting for me. ive played mafia on forums elsewhere but this will be my first game here. so forgive me if i dont really understand your meta.

Hey dodgy, you should probably get an avatar.

[eyestott]

I see we have all just descended into throwing out random votes with no explanation, I was just about to vote on dodgy and with the same reasoning but that damn vettrock beat me to it. Either that or he is playing Jedi mind tricks on me, which would be rather devious of him. I am watching you little green dwarf.

So youre criticizing people for giving a lack of explanation in RVS, then say you were just about to vote dodgy for the same reasoning someone else gave?
VOTE: Killapenwin.

[eyestott]

I see we have all just descended into throwing out random votes with no explanation, I was just about to vote on dodgy and with the same reasoning but that damn vettrock beat me to it. Either that or he is playing Jedi mind tricks on me, which would be rather devious of him. I am watching you little green dwarf.

this game will be interesting for me. ive played mafia on forums elsewhere but this will be my first game here. so forgive me if i dont really understand your meta.

Hey dodgy, you should probably get an avatar.

Cool, cool cool cool

I love it.
How are you finding MS style compared to Playdip?

[eyestott]

Disregard 1st quote.
By the way, dodgy:
at the top of each post it says ISO.
If you click that, you can read through all of that users posts.

[eyestott]

If you want to look at two players together, a similar function can be found at the bottom of the page. Use the "display posts by user" pulldown to select player 1, then hit the [+] and you'll get another pulldown to select player 2.

What.
Thank you.
So much

[eyestott]

Heres why I chose this game:
Most people prefer to scumhunt in the conventional way. Some players use meta a lot to scumhunt. Others, including myself, use role-related and setup-related points mainly for scumhunting.
This setup has so much variance, which is what drew me to the game. I am viewing this setup as closer to a logic puzzle than other mafia setups, as a large amount of players hold small pieces of information about the setup.
I am a late game player. Ill still scum hunt in the conventional way, but when i make cases, please place more weight on my role-related arguments than my conventional arguments.
Now, as for how we should approach this game, setup-wise, The VTs (no comment on whether I am one or not) have no information, but after our first lynch, we will be able to gradually narrow down what possible setups the game could be.
After each death, I will analyse the information, and share what new information we know about the setup. Others are welcome to do the same analysis, though. Anyways, Ill be replying to KP now.

By the way, heres how much experience I have with each of the players:
Killa: 1 newbie game where I was a scum.
Heartless: same newbie with Anti, he was town.
dodgy: 1 game on Playdip where I was a scum.
mastin: the same newbie game, she was town. I also played in her Hilariously Unbalanced game, where I was town.

[eyestott]

I see we have all just descended into throwing out random votes with no explanation, I was just about to vote on dodgy and with the same reasoning but that damn vettrock beat me to it. Either that or he is playing Jedi mind tricks on me, which would be rather devious of him. I am watching you little green dwarf.

So youre criticizing people for giving a lack of explanation in RVS, then say you were just about to vote dodgy for the same reasoning someone else gave?
VOTE: Killapenwin.

1: @eyestott: You mean me pointing out what everyone is doing and then saying I not going to because someone already posted the thing I was going to say to join in with the random voting?

2: You seem pretty quick to throw a vote on me without even questioning me first, I see that as more scummy than town.

3:I am not sure if people even know what a haiku is and at this stage of the game I don't think anyone is going to have a strong read on Tean's alignment after 2 posts. So no, I do not know if Tean is scum or not but similarly to Eyestott I wouldn't look favourably on Tean's were to continue his vote on me simply for his lack of reasoning.

4: Clearly any attempt at banter I have tried to make has failed miserably so I will just be serious from now on.

1: I didnt understand this. Why should what other people are doing in RVS prevent you from doing things?
2: We were barely out of RVS at that time. My vote was only slightly serious, but having seen your response, I'm happy with it. Why is it scummy, and better yet, if you think I'm scummy, why arent you voting me? I actually find you scummy for just calling me scummy, but doing nothing. Its passive aggressive behaviour, which is pretty scummy.
3: Hilariously
Socio-economic
Hippopotamus
Both of your scumreads (which you havent voted) are on people who have voted you. Additionally, youre passing off Tean's vote as one with a "lack of reasoning". And again with passive aggressiveness, but this time its masking a threat.
4: Where have you made "banter"? Or are you trying to pass off scummy behavior as banter?
"Nah guys, when i said that, i was just joking!"

[eyestott]

@eyestott: What prompted you to post your history info?

Just in case people wanted to know who has had experience with me, and who hasnt.

P.Edit: dodgy, why is that?

eyestott's another good vote

why?
if you are going to say someone is worth a vote you need to convince us of it

Goes both ways.

[eyestott]

@eyestott- your early interaction with me mainly, it was helpful but came across as buddying fmpov. and i think killapenwin's arguments against you (in paticular point 2) are quite valid.

(plus i noticed i was one of only 2 people not voting at this point so felt like i should place a vote on the person who i felt was scummiest) my vote isnt necessarily a great one but with the limited content in thread atm, its my best read.

Why is my being nice scummy? Why couldn't it have come from town-me?

[eyestott]

@eyestott- your early interaction with me mainly, it was helpful but came across as buddying fmpov. and i think killapenwin's arguments against you (in paticular point 2) are quite valid.

(plus i noticed i was one of only 2 people not voting at this point so felt like i should place a vote on the person who i felt was scummiest) my vote isnt necessarily a great one but with the limited content in thread atm, its my best read.

As for point 2, other people have placed votes without questioning.
For instance, YOUR VOTE ON ME.

[eyestott]

Dodgy: Post 66 and Post 73 were purely strategy related things, which is a null-tell.
Post 71 was to make sure you knew I was me.

[eyestott]

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

[eyestott]

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

being experienced doesnt mean i should blindly trust him. so far i dont have any idea why she thinks dave is scum.. let alone a full explanation

I'm just saying that technically she can't give any reasons yet.

[eyestott]

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

being experienced doesnt mean i should blindly trust him. so far i dont have any idea why she thinks dave is scum.. let alone a full explanation

I'm just saying that technically she can't give any reasons yet.

When she does give her reasons though, they better make damn good sense.

[eyestott]

Mostly skimming right now.

There are a couple of reads that I want to get to, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Basically, I want to hold back on giving the info, yet not actually forget what the reads are, but don't want to run afoul of mod rules or what I say being transparently obvious, to let the read develop for a little while longer. I'm coming up on a bit of a blank. Let's just say I basically have thoughts on almost every player in the game right now, albeit mostly weak. I'm really struggling to think what to do about most of it, but I will reiterate this:

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

I wouldn't trust anyone who claims to have a read on so little information.

What makes you think that mastin has little information?

[eyestott]

Ready

Yo.

Didn't bother to look at how many scum there are in the game (presumably, three), but copper and BlueBloodedToffee are either both town or both scum. (Lean the former.)

Aninenim is town.

One of Wicked/dave is scum, but not both. I lean dave.

Oh.
And I am totally /ready.

QFT. No information.

@mastin: If you're using the observation that I've flipped town in every game to predict I'm scum here, remember that dice have no memory. BTW is there a record for longest streak rolling town on this site?

I'll vote mastin if that's the reason. I doubt it is, though.

[eyestott]

I see we have all just descended into throwing out random votes with no explanation, I was just about to vote on dodgy and with the same reasoning but that damn vettrock beat me to it. Either that or he is playing Jedi mind tricks on me, which would be rather devious of him. I am watching you little green dwarf.

So youre criticizing people for giving a lack of explanation in RVS, then say you were just about to vote dodgy for the same reasoning someone else gave?
VOTE: Killapenwin.

1: @eyestott: You mean me pointing out what everyone is doing and then saying I not going to because someone already posted the thing I was going to say to join in with the random voting?

2: You seem pretty quick to throw a vote on me without even questioning me first, I see that as more scummy than town.

3:I am not sure if people even know what a haiku is and at this stage of the game I don't think anyone is going to have a strong read on Tean's alignment after 2 posts. So no, I do not know if Tean is scum or not but similarly to Eyestott I wouldn't look favourably on Tean's were to continue his vote on me simply for his lack of reasoning.

4: Clearly any attempt at banter I have tried to make has failed miserably so I will just be serious from now on.

1: I didnt understand this. Why should what other people are doing in RVS prevent you from doing things?
2: We were barely out of RVS at that time. My vote was only slightly serious, but having seen your response, I'm happy with it. Why is it scummy, and better yet, if you think I'm scummy, why arent you voting me? I actually find you scummy for just calling me scummy, but doing nothing. Its passive aggressive behaviour, which is pretty scummy.
3: Hilariously
Socio-economic
Hippopotamus
Both of your scumreads (which you havent voted) are on people who have voted you. Additionally, youre passing off Tean's vote as one with a "lack of reasoning". And again with passive aggressiveness, but this time its masking a threat.
4: Where have you made "banter"? Or are you trying to pass off scummy behavior as banter?
"Nah guys, when i said that, i was just joking!"

1. As I said he posted what I was going to throw out as joke vote as that seemed to be what the rest of you were doing at that stage.
2. Your vote on me looked like it was intended to start a bandwagon (it put me in the lead) and you never quizzed me you just decided to put me ahead of everyone else and as it had little reasoning I thought it was scummy.
3. I only get 1 vote and would like to use it wisely so I will put it on who I feel deserves to be voted for. 'Revenge voting' can also look scummy, too.
I would rather put my vote out there with a reason as to why I am voting that way than to not.
When you don't give a reason you deny that person and others the chance to challenge your vote, if we allow this to happen it gives scum a much higher chance of hiding behind poor reasoned votes. It is better for town to have as much info as possible to work on.
4. I tried a little bit with 'jedi mind tricks' post but like I say those posts were poorly received so I stopped.

Okay then.UNVOTE:

[eyestott]

@Dave
If you're not worried about Mastin's vote why do you keep mentioning it and have already decided it was based on nothing/it's a reaction test?

@Eyestott
why do you think dodge is leaning scum on you for being mister nice guy?

Well, I was nice (so nice I apparently made someone uncomfortable) in my scum game at playdip. This is a null tell for me, though.

[eyestott]

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

being experienced doesnt mean i should blindly trust him. so far i dont have any idea why she thinks dave is scum.. let alone a full explanation

I'm just saying that technically she can't give any reasons yet.

When she does give her reasons though, they better make damn good sense.

this seems like a bit of a backdown? it seems like you dont want to be seen defending mastin. you go from being certain as to her motive to trying to downplay that certainty. its concerning

I'm not backing down f m anything. If mastin gives good reasons for the post, good. But if her reasons suck, it's where I'll vote.
I wasn't "certain" of her motive.

[eyestott]

Heres why I chose this game:
Most people prefer to scumhunt in the conventional way. Some players use meta a lot to scumhunt. Others, including myself, use role-related and setup-related points mainly for scumhunting.
This setup has so much variance, which is what drew me to the game. I am viewing this setup as closer to a logic puzzle than other mafia setups, as a large amount of players hold small pieces of information about the setup.
I am a late game player. Ill still scum hunt in the conventional way, but when i make cases, please place more weight on my role-related arguments than my conventional arguments.

What is your reason/purpose for saying this? For the record, I think we will be in conventional scum hunting phase for at least two game days, depending on the number of Ts.

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus.

She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule)

.

Why are you making this assumption? While you could be right, there is no evidence for your assumption and at least one other reason why mastin wouldn't want to out her reads yet. I don't like this: feels like you're too quick to defend mastin here.

1: So it wouldnt be a surprise when I start switching from conventionally scumhunting during the early game to role-based scumhunting in the late game.
2: I couldnt think of another rule that could apply.

[eyestott]

eyestott;
-Potential buddying of dodgy and mastin.
-His conventional vs. role-related scum hunting reflection post feels like he is excusing himself to not scum hunt much/well now. I don't see a town motive for the post.
-I don't like the penwin mini wagon and he is a part of it.

- Being nice is hardly alignment indicative. I mean, sure, scum do it. But town do it to, especially when theyre legitimately just trying to be nice. My niceness in mafia stems from an aversion to conflict.
- What? I specifically said that Ill still scumhunt early game.
- After Penwins post, ive changed my read on him, but do you not like the mini wagon because you think Penwin is town, or because you think the reasons are bad?

[eyestott]

TBH, my bet is "reaction test". So I'm not all that concerned about it really.

Remember how I said I was 90% serious?

The other 10% was the reaction test. (Okay, so to be fair, it's probably better to say I was 60% serious and 40% reaction-testing, and exaggerating the number for the sake of furthering the reaction test, butstill, you get the idea.)

But I was serious then, and am even MORE serious now. My other reads are fluid. As in, they're massively flowing in my mind and I haven't nailed them down quite yet. (I'll try at some time in the immediate future.) But dave? Dave IS scum. I'm not sure if I'm going to really be able to explain it. Like, I can explain the basic not-very-well-based reasoning for the original read easily enough; it was just so plain compared to the other more interesting confirms that I figured "probably just scum who got it out of the way". The weakest of weak possible reasons, thus one reason why I hold onto said reasoning and not explain it immediately. (Because if people knew how weak it was, I'd lose the reactions.)

SINCE then, though, there's plenty more that's much stronger. Like, all of it, really. As in, basically everything dave says, I think, "yep, scum". I'm not sure I can really find the words for it. They're not coherent. But dave has done nothing but scumposting. While, yes, I was originally reaction-testing him, and while, yes, my original reasoning was weak, since then, the read has grown stronger off of much stronger reasoning. I'm just trying to figure out how to make that come across as more than just gibberish right now.

But he's scum. You can trust me on that.

No, I haven't tossed a single newbscumtell. I'm a brutally honest VT, and you're an idiot.

Why are you claiming already? What pro-town reason would you have for revealing you're a VT?

[eyestott]

this seems like a bit of a backdown? it seems like you dont want to be seen defending mastin. you go from being certain as to her motive to trying to downplay that certainty. its concerning

I'm not backing down f m anything. If mastin gives good reasons for the post, good. But if her reasons suck, it's where I'll vote.
I wasn't "certain" of her motive.

your early posts seem to suggest that you are certain (whether that was what you meant or not i cant say, im just telling you how it read fmpov). They dont have any sort of quantifying measure in the statements. Can you appreciate why im reading it the way i am?

Yes, I can.

[eyestott]

I see we have all just descended into throwing out random votes with no explanation, I was just about to vote on dodgy and with the same reasoning but that damn vettrock beat me to it. Either that or he is playing Jedi mind tricks on me, which would be rather devious of him. I am watching you little green dwarf.

So youre criticizing people for giving a lack of explanation in RVS, then say you were just about to vote dodgy for the same reasoning someone else gave?
VOTE: Killapenwin.

1: @eyestott: You mean me pointing out what everyone is doing and then saying I not going to because someone already posted the thing I was going to say to join in with the random voting?

2: You seem pretty quick to throw a vote on me without even questioning me first, I see that as more scummy than town.

3:I am not sure if people even know what a haiku is and at this stage of the game I don't think anyone is going to have a strong read on Tean's alignment after 2 posts. So no, I do not know if Tean is scum or not but similarly to Eyestott I wouldn't look favourably on Tean's were to continue his vote on me simply for his lack of reasoning.

4: Clearly any attempt at banter I have tried to make has failed miserably so I will just be serious from now on.

1: I didnt understand this. Why should what other people are doing in RVS prevent you from doing things?
2: We were barely out of RVS at that time. My vote was only slightly serious, but having seen your response, I'm happy with it. Why is it scummy, and better yet, if you think I'm scummy, why arent you voting me? I actually find you scummy for just calling me scummy, but doing nothing. Its passive aggressive behaviour, which is pretty scummy.
3: Hilariously
Socio-economic
Hippopotamus
Both of your scumreads (which you havent voted) are on people who have voted you. Additionally, youre passing off Tean's vote as one with a "lack of reasoning". And again with passive aggressiveness, but this time its masking a threat.
4: Where have you made "banter"? Or are you trying to pass off scummy behavior as banter?
"Nah guys, when i said that, i was just joking!"

1. As I said he posted what I was going to throw out as joke vote as that seemed to be what the rest of you were doing at that stage.
2. Your vote on me looked like it was intended to start a bandwagon (it put me in the lead) and you never quizzed me you just decided to put me ahead of everyone else and as it had little reasoning I thought it was scummy.
3. I only get 1 vote and would like to use it wisely so I will put it on who I feel deserves to be voted for. 'Revenge voting' can also look scummy, too.
I would rather put my vote out there with a reason as to why I am voting that way than to not.
When you don't give a reason you deny that person and others the chance to challenge your vote, if we allow this to happen it gives scum a much higher chance of hiding behind poor reasoned votes. It is better for town to have as much info as possible to work on.
4. I tried a little bit with 'jedi mind tricks' post but like I say those posts were poorly received so I stopped.

Point 2 and Point 3 really look like theyre coming from a town mindset.
I can see why he though my vote was bad, as it put him in the lead, and had little reasoning even though I dont think he realised it was a predominantly RVS vote.
I also liked his point where he says that he wants to use it wisely and that just OMGUSing is not what he wanted to do.

[eyestott]

You're welcome to lynch me if you think it's the right thing. I know it would be a mistake for town

I strongly considered self voting.

You're at L-2. If you really think that your lynch is bad, why on earth would you consider self voting?
I'd vote you, but you're at L-2 and we still have plenty of time, and a vote from me might:
Make you self-vote like youve strongly considered
Cause a quickhammer.

[eyestott]

Why are you claiming already? What pro-town reason would you have for revealing you're a VT?

Partially answered in 172. I don't really have a reason, other than being quite angry at the time.
I have self censored a couple of posts since then.
I strongly considered self voting.

Also, you cant just pass off a reveal as anger, and expect it to be fine.

[eyestott]

Oh yeah, now that its at L-3 again, Ill VOTE: davesaz, until he stops being my top scumread.

[eyestott]

Oh yeah, now that its at L-3 again, Ill VOTE: davesaz, until he stops being my top scumread.

did you read anything at all that copper or i wrote on dave and why he is looking less scummy? this vote isnt helping my perception of you. What do you make of how the bandwagons on killa and dave have developed and/or collapsed?

also
UNVOTE:

I figured that since I had literally just said that I'd be voting him if not for the amount of votes on him. It changes, so I changed my vote.
Ill take another look, though, and let you know what I think.

[eyestott]

Havent read up, Ive had a busy day. Going out to a dinner soon, and Ill be back in 5-ish hours. X post for most of my games.

[eyestott]

Sorry, I thought I would have more time. I got back later than expected, and its now 11:22.
However, why is my dave vote a sheep? I provided new reasons, not just copying others.

[eyestott]

Eyestott – I don't understand why he jumped on the wagon in 211. May be scum, but he's not the most possible one.

3) eyestott - (null leaning scum) I don't feel I can be impartial given that we have already butted heads a little but I think his actions rather than his posts have been poor such as jumping on bandwagons as placeholder votes, which at such an early stage I don't think is very good.

@eyestott
I find your vote on dav as rather opportunistic. I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my vote along side yours honestly. Right now it feels as if you are sheeping the biggest bandwagon.

I gave reasons for my vote. Why can't I give reasons and vote on my top scumread without it being "sheeping" simply because of how many other people are voting him for different reasons?

so you are absent from the thread for 48 hours and when you come back this is your only contribution? a meaningless piece of drivel?

like seriously?

if you are town lift you game because at the moment you arent helping anyone. all you are doing is making it easier for scum to lurk.

How do you know I'm not scum lurking?

VOTE: Dodgy

Wow.

What is your reason/purpose for saying this? For the record, I think we will be in conventional scum hunting phase for at least two game days, depending on the number of Ts.

Why are you making this assumption? While you could be right, there is no evidence for your assumption and at least one other reason why mastin wouldn't want to out her reads yet. I don't like this: feels like you're too quick to defend mastin here.

1: So it wouldnt be a surprise when I start switching from conventionally scumhunting during the early game to role-based scumhunting in the late game.
2: I couldnt think of another rule that could apply.

1: That’s an odd thing for you to be concerned about now.
2: If you made that assumption “because you couldn’t think of another motive”, then why did you also say;

I'm not backing down f m anything. If mastin gives good reasons for the post, good. But if her reasons suck, it's where I'll vote.

I wasn't "certain" of her motive.

? Seems contradictory. Why make an assumption about mastin if you weren't certain to begin with?

1: Well, I am an odd person XD
2: I couldnt think of one, but that doesnt mean that I didnt think there might be one. I'm not certain of anything, except my role.

- Being nice is hardly alignment indicative. I mean, sure, scum do it. But town do it to, especially when theyre legitimately just trying to be nice. My niceness in mafia stems from an aversion to conflict.
- After Penwins post, ive changed my read on him, but do you not like the mini wagon because you think Penwin is town, or because you think the reasons are bad?

- I can respect that. But I am somewhat hesitant to take your word for it, because I’ve never played with you before. If you could provide an example of you exhibiting similar behavior as town, then I’d probably drop this point.
- It’s a combination of the two, but mostly because I think Penwin is town. Also, I think he’s an easier target given his lack of experience.

Spoiler: niceness

Also, I feel I need to say this:
@Mastin2: You are putting an absolutely astounding amount of effort into this game. I tip my hat off to you.

<<< Don't thank me yet! Last game I modded had a similar strong start, yet absolutely crashed at the end. (I have an unhealthy obsession with perfection in mafia games and devote way too much time to tasks.)

Thank me when the game's over!

(Well, assuming you don't hate me by then, that is... )

>>>

<<< The best part of the image is the flexibility behind the meaning of the words. There are at least three different ways that could be read:
"I must move with great speed",
"I must go without eating",
And, "*gripping nether-regions* I gotta GO. Fast!"

Now tell me, which do you think a hydra-slipping Sonic is? >>>

I legit laughed for half a minute.
Thank you so much, mastin.
It would have to be number one though.

Hey, Bulba! Happy 2 years!

This is not a leading question, ika. Thanks for answering.
I think the reason people thought/think I'm scum is because I have a very unrealistic role.

It's something I do as town and scum in games where I dont know most of the players, I guess. These ones all came from town-me.

As an IC, what reasons could a player have for not giving any reasons for opinions?

Well, to be honest it's mainly a playstyle thing in that I generally don't like giving reasons anyway.

But to give a better answer, I've found that giving delayed reasoning can be a very effective teaching tool. In essence, it can get people to basically go, "Okay, she said that...

why

did she say that? What makes her think that? What's she seeing?" Basically, it forced you to think.

You have my word that I've got no need to fake reasoning, as either alignment. Meaning, I have no need to leech off of you guessing why I have done what I have done. I might augment my own by using others, because using the words of others frequently helps explain my concept more effectively than my words alone would, yet I'd always have those words of mine there.

So short version short, I hold back on reasons so that you can become stronger players. (And because I'm a slacker. )

Great, thanks for that!

i

might not be

COMPLETELY sober

but i am serious

I laughed out loud at this.
What evidence do you have that Mastin2 is scum?

Scum me.

Point 2 and Point 3 really look like theyre coming from a town mindset.
I can see why he though my vote was bad, as it put him in the lead, and had little reasoning even though I dont think he realised

it was a predominantly RVS vote

.
I also liked his point where he says that he wants to use it wisely and that just OMGUSing is not what he wanted to do.

This feels like a slight backpedal (possibly to help justify your vote switch). Rereading your post 67, nothing about it feels jokey, you pointed out a contradiction and voted.

Not a backpedal, Ive said before that my vote was only slightly serious, and this was before switching.

2: We were barely out of RVS at that time. My vote was only slightly serious

[eyestott]

@eyestott it is because your votes so far have just followed Tean's, which looks a bit sheepish. Also, Tean has only voted on players that have been voted on already so either him or you (maybe both) are trying to create bandwagons or give them some momentum in my opinion.

As Aneninen said, it is odd that Tean would call you out for sheeping when he himself is being a catalyst for bandwagons.

Just because my votes happen to be the same as teans doesn't mean it's anything to do with it.
If it continuously happens, sure, lend it some weight.

[eyestott]

It's something I do as town and scum in games where I dont know most of the players, I guess. These ones all came from town-me.

...

Scum me.
...

Pulling your own meta, and showing you do things as scum as town, Especially to the point of pulling scum quote and town quotes, seems to be a little too focused ond manipulating and tracking their own meta. I would say slightly scummy, but more it mean you doing any kind of meta on eyestott is worthless as he is actively manipulating it.

I was specifically asked to do so.

[eyestott]

121 -

Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

This looks like 'Give me a reason to vote Dave.' Don't like it.

there's definiteyl something weird going on in the mastin-eyestott-dave interaction.

Yeah, elaborate on this?

i already answered the first part. my read on dave was independent of what mastin's read was. i was trying to use mastin's read on dave to get a read on mastin.

the 2nd part.

mastin was certain dave was scum- eyestott defended that read in a way which was weird, and seemed too certain of the reasoning when no reasons had been included. Eyestott then backed down and tried to down play it. Then we also have eyestott's vote which only came once dave had dropped down from L-2- even though eyestott was scumreading him before that.

My read on dave has been lessened by the way the wagon built up on dave

VOTE: eyestott seems the scummiest to me atm- all this plus include his buddying of me earlier, his role in the killapenwin bandwagon and the dave bandwagon.

When he was at L-2, I decided not to put him at L-1 ONLY for the reason that he had already said that he was considering self-voting, and I had no wish for him to end the day early.

[eyestott]

121 -

Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

This looks like 'Give me a reason to vote Dave.' Don't like it.

there's definiteyl something weird going on in the mastin-eyestott-dave interaction.

Yeah, elaborate on this?

i already answered the first part. my read on dave was independent of what mastin's read was. i was trying to use mastin's read on dave to get a read on mastin.

the 2nd part.

mastin was certain dave was scum- eyestott defended that read in a way which was weird, and seemed too certain of the reasoning when no reasons had been included. Eyestott then backed down and tried to down play it. Then we also have eyestott's vote which only came once dave had dropped down from L-2- even though eyestott was scumreading him before that.

My read on dave has been lessened by the way the wagon built up on dave

VOTE: eyestott seems the scummiest to me atm- all this plus include his buddying of me earlier, his role in the killapenwin bandwagon and the dave bandwagon.

When he was at L-2, I decided not to put him at L-1 ONLY for the reason that he had already said that he was considering self-voting, and I had no wish for him to end the day early.

yes but if you felt he was scum why was that an issue? lynching scum is good. Moreover it would have been a good test, you find out if he is actually bluffing, and more importantly if he doesnt self-vote but someone hammers on him, it provides good data. You obviously felt fairly confident in your read on him as you voted him as soon as you realised he wasnt at l-2 anymore.. so why wasnt that confidence there when he was on L-2?

Because it would end the day way too early. Why not get as much information as we can?
Ending the day about 3 days in is very bad. Scum lynch is good, but a mislynch after 3 days is bad, as we could have possibly prevented it.

[eyestott]

sometimes ending the day early might actually provide more information. it might mean that the scum havent had time to get organised and hide their votes like they do towards the end of the day. note im not saying that we should just be ending the day straight away. you point out some fairly obvious points such as that if we get it wrong and mislynch after 3 days when we might have been able to talk and come to a better lynch is not optimal. im just saying that an early end to the day is not as bad as you seem to be suggesting. Also for the record the sole reason you didnt vote dave originally is that he was at L-2? correct? Was that because of how early in the day it was? or because you didnt want someone at L-1?

Correct. Both. Mainly the first option, as having someone at L-1 is only dangerous if there is someone who might quickhammer, in this case, himself.
Do you think It would have been more pro-town of me to put someone who has contemplated Self-voting at L-1?
Yes or no?

[eyestott]

sometimes ending the day early might actually provide more information. it might mean that the scum havent had time to get organised and hide their votes like they do towards the end of the day. note im not saying that we should just be ending the day straight away. you point out some fairly obvious points such as that if we get it wrong and mislynch after 3 days when we might have been able to talk and come to a better lynch is not optimal. im just saying that an early end to the day is not as bad as you seem to be suggesting. Also for the record the sole reason you didnt vote dave originally is that he was at L-2? correct? Was that because of how early in the day it was? or because you didnt want someone at L-1?

Correct. Both. Mainly the first option, as having someone at L-1 is only dangerous if there is someone who might quickhammer, in this case, himself.
Do you think It would have been more pro-town of me to put someone who has contemplated Self-voting at L-1?
Yes or no?

do you really think as scum he would have selfvoted at L-1? im trying to work out whether you are being sincere here or whether you just didnt want to be vote 6 on him, as you know his allignment? it could easily be distancing, l-1 puts him in real danger if he is your buddy, L-2 is safer. it could be that you dont want to be vote 6 on a townie. idk.

would your vote stay there now if i voted dave and pushed him to L-1 or would you unvote?

Answer my question, and Ill answer yours.

[eyestott]

sometimes ending the day early might actually provide more information. it might mean that the scum havent had time to get organised and hide their votes like they do towards the end of the day. note im not saying that we should just be ending the day straight away. you point out some fairly obvious points such as that if we get it wrong and mislynch after 3 days when we might have been able to talk and come to a better lynch is not optimal. im just saying that an early end to the day is not as bad as you seem to be suggesting. Also for the record the sole reason you didnt vote dave originally is that he was at L-2? correct? Was that because of how early in the day it was? or because you didnt want someone at L-1?

Correct. Both. Mainly the first option, as having someone at L-1 is only dangerous if there is someone who might quickhammer, in this case, himself.
Do you think It would have been more pro-town of me to put someone who has contemplated Self-voting at L-1?
Yes or no?

do you really think as scum he would have selfvoted at L-1? im trying to work out whether you are being sincere here or whether you just didnt want to be vote 6 on him, as you know his allignment? it could easily be distancing, l-1 puts him in real danger if he is your buddy, L-2 is safer. it could be that you dont want to be vote 6 on a townie. idk.

would your vote stay there now if i voted dave and pushed him to L-1 or would you unvote?

I honestly dont know what he would have done as either alignment. Self voting is playing against your wincon, regardless of alignment, and yet he has contemplated it. If I were buddies with him, and I wanted him to survive, why would I then bus him? Also, information can be gained by seeing who places the hammer vote. Especially at such an early point, the person who hammers is basically saying "I am so sure this person is scum that I'd be willing to bet the rest of the day". Placing someone at L-1 while they are willing to self vote removes this opportunity for information.
Now that he has calmed down, and does not show an intention to self vote, no, I wouldnt unvote if you put him at L-1.

[eyestott]

it depends on the confidence of your read. if you strongly believe he is scum then you should be voting him. if not then you shouldnt. but its your later vote that is making this hard for me to find sincere

so far i dont see how anyone can have a

strong read

on anyone either way. If anyone has a strong town or scum read, please explain why. FMPOV having weak reads at this point is fine. id rather people have weak reads that are logical and that i can follow than supposed strong reads that havent been explained.

Please just give a yes or no. I am not sure that Dave is scum. He is, however, my top scumread. However, I have no wish for the day to end too quickly.

[eyestott]

What possible point could dave be trying to make? In my opinion, that only applies later in the game, and considering tht if he's, town, he's a VT, I don't see why he would have a good reason to self vote, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't.
There's a huge difference here between putting someone at L-2 and L-1 and actually hammering them.
Each requires a larger amount of confidence than the previous one.
I'm not going to keep repeating myself. I wasn't confident enough in him to put him at L-1 but I was confident enough to place him at L-2, where even if he did self vote, another player would need to vote too.
That's the reason I was prepared to put him at l-2 but not l-1.
I mean, placing the first vote on someone is completely different to placing the hammer, yeah?
Th

[eyestott]

Blue, 208 and 209.

[eyestott]

Why would you lynch over 273? What am I missing?

[eyestott]

@BBT
I found Tean's vote opportunistic because he switched from Killa to Dave without much interaction with the wagon beforehand and only after more than one player expressed his like of Killa, so he went from possibly town to leaning scum, I deemed voting him before he could give his opinion on the matter and without really knowing if my read on Dave was correct to be premature.

It was the same thing you did in a smaller timeframe, mt catch-up and impressions.

@All
I am reviewing the latest pages and it looks like Dodgy is trying to bury Eyestott, because no matter the answer (and often I actually agree with Dodgy's pov but that's not the point) he argues the opposite.

This is something I've just noticed too. Especially with the refusal to give a straight answer to my "if I had put dave at L-1, would that have been better?" question. It seems as if I'm damned if I do, damned if I dont.

[eyestott]

I am reviewing the latest pages and it looks like Dodgy is trying to bury Eyestott, because no matter the answer (and often I actually agree with Dodgy's pov but that's not the point) he argues the opposite.

What do you mean trying to bury them? Your word choice is confusing to me.

Likely means condemn, I'd say.

[eyestott]

but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

^^
Dodgy: On the surface, your play looks abit similar to Fable 6, but I've realised that there is nothing I can say that will change your views of me. Besides, you didnt tunnel in Fable, and coming from that game, you should know how much fire townies (Telleo comes to mind) can come under from being one of the last people on a lynch. Throughout my conversations with with you in this game, It looks as if you might be trying to convince everyone I'm scum because you know me, and hardly anyone else does. It looks as though your determined to scumread me, and the reasons come later.

[eyestott]

@Dodgy
I said I agree with

some

of your points, in particular I don't like his l-2 is less significant than l-1 which is less significant than hammer, if you vote a guy you want to lynch him, unless you are clearly doing it to pressure that player, the position on the wagon is irrelevant, but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

fair enough. he is still my top scum read though. i probably am tunelling on him a bit. i dont think its a conscious thing though. probably partly because he is the one player i have experience with before this game.

Well, you dont see me tunnelling you, or mastin, or penwin (that was for a few posts) even though I have one completed game with each of you.

[eyestott]

but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

^^
Dodgy: On the surface, your play looks abit similar to Fable 6, but I've realised that there is nothing I can say that will change your views of me. Besides, you didnt tunnel in Fable, and coming from that game, you should know how much fire townies (Telleo comes to mind) can come under from being one of the last people on a lynch. Throughout my conversations with with you in this game, It looks as if you might be trying to convince everyone I'm scum because you know me, and hardly anyone else does. It looks as though your determined to scumread me, and the reasons come later.

actually i probably did tunnel in fable. look at my interaction with TBO and Telleo. i was wrong there, and its certainly possible im wrong here

You did? It didnt really seem so to me, as you ended day 1 on condude. Day 1 was only 4 days, and you managed to scumhunt more than just those few in that time, yet youve spent much more time on me than anuone else.

@Dodgy
I said I agree with

some

of your points, in particular I don't like his l-2 is less significant than l-1 which is less significant than hammer, if you vote a guy you want to lynch him, unless you are clearly doing it to pressure that player, the position on the wagon is irrelevant, but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

fair enough. he is still my top scum read though. i probably am tunelling on him a bit. i dont think its a conscious thing though. probably partly because he is the one player i have experience with before this game.

Well, you dont see me tunnelling you, or mastin, or penwin (that was for a few posts) even though I have one completed game with each of you.

no one accused you of tunneling. that was me reflecting on criticism of me that was justified.

I'm saying that just because I'm the only player you know doesnt mean you should "tunnel" me. My vote has been on someone I haven't played with before for most of the game.
It's not a great point, but do you know what I mean?

[eyestott]

but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

^^
Dodgy: On the surface, your play looks abit similar to Fable 6, but I've realised that there is nothing I can say that will change your views of me. Besides, you didnt tunnel in Fable, and coming from that game, you should know how much fire townies (Telleo comes to mind) can come under from being one of the last people on a lynch. Throughout my conversations with with you in this game, It looks as if you might be trying to convince everyone I'm scum because you know me, and hardly anyone else does. It looks as though your determined to scumread me, and the reasons come later.

actually i probably did tunnel in fable. look at my interaction with TBO and Telleo. i was wrong there, and its certainly possible im wrong here

No comment of anything else in this post?

[eyestott]

but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

^^
Dodgy: On the surface, your play looks abit similar to Fable 6, but I've realised that there is nothing I can say that will change your views of me. Besides, you didnt tunnel in Fable, and coming from that game, you should know how much fire townies (Telleo comes to mind) can come under from being one of the last people on a lynch. Throughout my conversations with with you in this game, It looks as if you might be trying to convince everyone I'm scum because you know me, and hardly anyone else does. It looks as though your determined to scumread me, and the reasons come later.

actually i probably did tunnel in fable. look at my interaction with TBO and Telleo. i was wrong there, and its certainly possible im wrong here

You did? It didnt really seem so to me, as you ended day 1 on condude. Day 1 was only 4 days, and you managed to scumhunt more than just those few in that time, yet youve spent much more time on me than anuone else.

have a look at my d3 though, the tunneling there was horrible. and yeah its easier to scum hunt on playdip than here. deadlines being shorter means more is expected of you each 24 hour period. so you get more to go on. you dont really get people who go afk for 2-3 days

Its not Day 3 yet, though. I'd have to disagree that its easier on playdip. And you do get afkers:
Constantine, Preston, Alcester to an extent, JC1985, etc.

[eyestott]

I'm leaning scum on you.
Wait no. I think you are scum. Id say youre my second scum read.

[eyestott]

Yes. If dave flips scum, id probably think youre not his scumbuddy, so either SK or town.
If town, Id be more confident youre anti-town.

[eyestott]

I dont know there is an SK.
I just dont think youre the same alignment as him.
If hes SK, you could be town or mafia.
I'm not giving myself a way out, as if dave flips scum if theres 1 nightkill, likely no SK, if theres more than 1, theres likely an SK.

[eyestott]

I didnt include the possibility of him flipping SK because its a statistically insignificant probability (1/26 until we know better).

[eyestott]

I see why Mollie gets uppity about newbie players...

My advice, since you both seem to be scumreading each other (and eyes., that was not an endorsement to turn around and behave the same):

- each of you make a case (being concise would be helpful) about why you think the other is scum.

at this point if you're both town this is an OMGUS based discussion, if one of you is scum the town player's arguments are getting drowned in the back and forth.

Okay, thats a good idea. Ill make my case once I am up to date.

Dodgy: On the surface, your play looks abit similar to Fable 6, but I've realised that there is nothing I can say that will change your views of me.

I'm leaning scum on you.
Wait no. I think you are scum. Id say youre my second scum read.

These two quotes are very concerning. So, in 374 you're trying to change dodgy's view of you. Why would you try to change dodgy's view of you if you believe he is scum (283). Like, if you town-read him, I could understand it, but trying to reason with someone you're scum-reading makes no sense at all because you should be thinking he is

purposely

trying to 'mislynch' you.
VOTE: eyestott

I'm not trying to change his views of me unless he is town. The fact that nothing ive said has changed his views at all is suspicious. If he's scum, he is purposefully trying to mislynch me, yes. But If hes town, then at least some of my atguments would be getting through to dodgy, and they arent.

Yes. If dave flips scum, id probably think youre not his scumbuddy, so either SK or town.
If town, Id be more confident youre anti-town.

Yeah, so you're determined to read dodgy!scum no matter what happens. Got it.

Can we lynch eyestott now?

That's misrepresenting me. If dave flips scum, he's likely town, but there is the small possibility he is SK, just like the is the small possibility of anyone being SK.

The reason for not putting dave at L-1 is fine, if true, but I’m not convinced that was eyestott’s real reason. eyestott said he decided to not put dave at L-1 ONLY because he had expressed self-voting intent, but eyestott expressed issue with dave in post 195 BEFORE dave expressed self vote intent in post 199. eyestott, if his self vote consideration was the only thing holding you back, why didn’t you vote him prior to its mention?

My one point in 195 was not grounds enough to vote dave.

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

Ive already established I do that as both alignments.
Ive already established that my KP vote was mainly RVS.
And this last point is not good.My wanting to not put dave at L-1 is perfectly valid, especially since scumdave could just hammer himself and prevent any more information for the day.

@Aneninen
Ok.

VOTE: Eyes

Wow. So you vote me in between dodgy's case on me and my case on him?

Although Tean is my strongest scumread, that's also a viable idea. (See my 219 about him and also the Dodgy/EyeStott conversation.) If Eyestott flips scum, Tean is most probably town, or at least, if both of them were scum, it would have been very dumb from them to jump on the Davesaz wagon with those posts. Also, if Eyestott is scum, that may clear Dodgy too, maybe.
Everyone, discuss these!

No where do you say what happens if i'm town.
Yeah, so you're determined to read eyestott!scum no matter what happens. Got it.

So, pretty much everyone is scumreading me. Dont i like, have the right to an attorney or something? Wicked, as pretty much the only person not thinking i'm super scummy, please help. I promise I'm town.

[eyestott]

dodgy case will come once I'm up to date in all my games. I made a decision to not post in my games yesterday, to clear my head.

[eyestott]

@Eyes
If you're town you are in a prime position to ferret out scum so give it your best.

On the other hand I don't believe you wrote this sequentially as you'd like us to believe, because I've seen you online a few times and you have been active on the forum, so unless for reasons unknown you decided not zo review this thread in particular your post strikes me as manipulative on your part, not a good start.

Why am i in a prime position?
I had skimmed through this thread yesterday, didnt really read much, only foreknowledge I had was that people were voting me.

[eyestott]

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

Ive already established I do that as both alignments.
Ive already established that my KP vote was mainly RVS.
And this last point is not good.My wanting to not put dave at L-1 is perfectly valid, especially since scumdave could just hammer himself and prevent any more information for the day.

wait wait, this thinking is not at all town... you say here you dont want to put dave at L-1(ok this has been discussed, i can understand that) but you go further and state that its worse because

scum dave

could self hammer?

Firstly why on earth would he hammer himself as scum? Secondly why is scum hammering themself there a bad position for the town? a scum lynch d1 is great for the town. like what are you even thinking? how can you honestly believe what you said here as town?

If dave is town: could self hammer for not caring - bad.
If dave is scum: could self hammer very early giving us less information than if we had lynched him a week later. Its good that we lynch a scum, but we could have gotten a lot more information if we lynched him a week later. Besides, if he's scum, he's not likely to start being townread by the majority.
He would hammer himself as scum to end the day before any more information can be gained, such as how he interacts with the other players, accidental slips, etc.

[eyestott]

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

Ive already established I do that as both alignments.
Ive already established that my KP vote was mainly RVS.
And this last point is not good.My wanting to not put dave at L-1 is perfectly valid, especially since scumdave could just hammer himself and prevent any more information for the day.

wait wait, this thinking is not at all town... you say here you dont want to put dave at L-1(ok this has been discussed, i can understand that) but you go further and state that its worse because

scum dave

could self hammer?

Firstly why on earth would he hammer himself as scum? Secondly why is scum hammering themself there a bad position for the town? a scum lynch d1 is great for the town. like what are you even thinking? how can you honestly believe what you said here as town?

giving too much thought about their individual alignments or exposing himself by giving a read on the situation.

there's a glaring problem w/ the dave wagon.

it's that for a while
, it was AN UNCONTESTED wagon. people seem to have risen to the occasion as of late and pointed this out, but if you're going to say dave is scum, you have to work from the premise he was getting the EVERLOVING SHIT bussed out of him at the beginning or that he's an SK

that's indicative of newbscum and no one on that wagon (except maybe the hydra of people i've never heard of) fits the profile.

To be fair, my wagon is (almost)uncontested too.

[eyestott]

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

Ive already established I do that as both alignments.
Ive already established that my KP vote was mainly RVS.
And this last point is not good.My wanting to not put dave at L-1 is perfectly valid, especially since scumdave could just hammer himself and prevent any more information for the day.

wait wait, this thinking is not at all town... you say here you dont want to put dave at L-1(ok this has been discussed, i can understand that) but you go further and state that its worse because

scum dave

could self hammer?

Firstly why on earth would he hammer himself as scum? Secondly why is scum hammering themself there a bad position for the town? a scum lynch d1 is great for the town. like what are you even thinking? how can you honestly believe what you said here as town?

If dave is town: could self hammer for not caring - bad.
If dave is scum: could self hammer very early giving us less information than if we had lynched him a week later. Its good that we lynch a scum, but we could have gotten a lot more information if we lynched him a week later. Besides, if he's scum, he's not likely to start being townread by the majority.
He would hammer himself as scum to end the day before any more information can be gained, such as how he interacts with the other players, accidental slips, etc.

i can understand the conclusion you draw if he is town. I understand the conclusion you draw if he is scum but he would only do that if there was no chance he was avoiding lynch or any other viable candidate is his buddy.
You could be a potential candidate for someone who could take the lynch lead from him.
But none of that is what i really take issue with.
what i take issue with, is why you chose to state teh

especially if he is scum

. If you are town lynching scum is never a downside. and you should be more worried about him hammering if he is town than if he is scum, yet you choose to mention the "if he is scum" in your quantifying statement.

Does anyone else find that off or is it just me?

Yeah, my especially was because:
You mentioned me scumreading him in the post i quoted
I was scumreading him.
Make sense?

[eyestott]

@All
Eyes is purposely not posting in this game at L-2 and I don't like it.

To be honest, Ive been doing housework for most of the day, and Ive already said all that I can to explain myself.

[eyestott]

Okay, so, I'm a tracker.
If youre going to lynch me, do it now. At least when I show up town, youll start actually suspecting dodgy. He is acting very different to my game with him, and he knows what i'm like as scum, and that my play is not like my scum game with him.
Mastin is a slight scumread. Contrary to what she said, she hadnt really explained her scumread on me. the closest she came to it was

In general, Dodgy/Eyestott, the conversation around those posts: Dodgy gives me town-vibes. Eyestott gives me scum-vibes.

Basically, this.

In fact, I think I can get a fairly good readslist going. Copper/BBT/Aneninen are all basically my "just below Wicked and beast"-tiered town right now since they're seeing a lot of the stuff I am.

I feel that people are townreading mastin because she's mastin.
Besides, mastin was scumreading Heartless when she herself was being inactive (with good reason).
Dave is still a scumread, but Id rather now have my vote on dodgy. He is just completely different to what ive seen from him. I'm resigned to my fate, as dodgy's points actually look convincing to the general masses, but he knows that i'm playing completely different to my game with him.
VOTE: dodgy. I legitimately believe all of the points ive made, and would have made those points regardless of alignment.
If anyone actually wants to talk to me, Ill do so.

[eyestott]

@eyes you are missing the point. if you were scum reading him, the concern of him hammering as scum is irrelevant.. explain to me how lynching a scum is ever not in the town's interest? You claim that it means we cant gain more information? as far as i can see that is the only downside to the town if he hammers himself. BUT that downside IN NO WAY AT ALL outweighs the fact that we lynch a scum in that scenario. your concerns are ok - ie i see the points you are making- i just dont see how they comes from a town perspective.

the real downside that a townie should have been concerned about is what happens if he hammers himself as town. THAT IS A MAJOR DOWNSIDE- no arguments about that. the fact you were scum reading him is not all that relevant. and here is why. Even if you were scum reading him you have to consider the fact he might be town. If you do so you would see the far bigger downside i mentioned here. OR if you dont consider that possibility it means that you are so certain that he is scum. And if that is the case it brings us back to the Question of why you didnt vote him to L-1.

can other people please weigh in on this?

@wicked you dont like the lynch im pushing. so clearly you seem to think that eyestott is town. Please explain to me how town eyestott sincerely believes what he is saying here?

Its not irrelevant, and i understand and agree that its a good thing on a whole. I never said that a scumdave lynch was bad. Never. I just explained that it would be better if it were further through the day.
And I never said that town dave hammering himself wasnt a major downside. I just didnt say especially before it. I DO see the far bigger downside.

[eyestott]

Look, dodgy. Remember my decision to not vote Alcester, and specifically mention why I did so? And how, even though it wasn't actually a scum tell, it got me lynched? That showed that I often have opinions about theory that don't correlate with the general populous, regardless of alignment.
Do you realise the same thing is happening?

[eyestott]

I'm saying, Even though i was scum, I was ultimately lynched because of something I wouldve said as both alignments.
I said that in the AAR, where I have absolutely no reason to lie.
I'm saying that I'm being voted in this game because I have an opinion differing from the rest of the town, and am being scumread because of it.

[eyestott]

FML with these early claims, remove your votes from Eyes.

What? Why would you townread me for that?

[eyestott]

Copper is scum if eyestott is scum.

Tracker is a great fake claim for scum.

Exactly.

[eyestott]

No, but I'm saying that, if I were scum, I'd likely pick tracker. It's easy to fake, given that in this game, it's just a yes/no of whether the person made an action.

[eyestott]

Oh yeah. Id be unlikely to fakeclaiming an investigative when I'm in a game with someone from Fable.
I fakeclaimed a Flavor cop, to be precise, and I breadcrumbed it and everything.
P.edit: I wasn't responding to the part about us as a team. I was responding to the other part.

[eyestott]

Yes, the part where BBT says if you are scum so am I? So are you claiming scum with me? I don't really mind a 1v1.

NO!
I was just responding to the part that said that tracker is a great fakeclaiming for scum.

[eyestott]

Yeah, BBTs point about us is not one I agree with.

[eyestott]

There could be up to 4 trackers, IIRC. Other trackers, don't claim.

[eyestott]

Bull.

[eyestott]

~40% chance of more than 1 tracker. I did the maths.

[eyestott]

No, I really didn't.
7 chances for a 15% chance.

[eyestott]

Ah, I didn't realise that TT was a full and a 1 shot.
I did 1- Pr(0 Ts) - Pr(1 T)
Where I should have also removed Pr(2Ts)

[eyestott]

Still, 7 percent.
That's actually not enough to base a dipole on.
If both are town, that's two mislynched.

[eyestott]

No, it's not.
If I'm town, and a town tracker CCs me, it creates a fake dipole, and we get two PR lynches.
7% is a significant chance.

[eyestott]

@Eyes
While we are waiting, do you still think Dodgy is likely scum?

Yes. I believe he is trying to bail ship on the wagon of a PR. If he actually thought I was scum, he would likely keep some pressure on, question me.

[eyestott]

If a tracker cc's here, 93 times out of 100 we have a guaranteed scum lynch within the first two days and close to a 50% chance of lynching scum on our first day

Well, thats wrong. That assumes that the chance of a fake CC is the same as the chance of an actual tracker CCing.
In a scenario where I am the only tracker, I'm less likely to be CCed than in the scenario where I am one of two trackers.

[eyestott]

@Eyes
You are not considering the case where you are the fake.

Well, duh. Of course I'm not.

[eyestott]

Well, the two arent mutually exclusive. Scum suspects can still have good ideas.

[eyestott]

Well, the two arent mutually exclusive. Scum suspects can still have good ideas.

ok ill put it another way? do you believe that it is implausible that i would make that conclusion as town?
if not then how is it scum indicative? Please explain how its more likely that this action comes from scum than from town.

Its not implausible at all. Both alignments could say that, so its not really indicative. It wasnt a point for or against you.

[eyestott]

Catch up soon.

[eyestott]

Where can I find your other points?

They should be a few posts away from 195.

Well, the two arent mutually exclusive. Scum suspects can still have good ideas.

ok ill put it another way? do you believe that it is implausible that i would make that conclusion as town?
if not then how is it scum indicative? Please explain how its more likely that this action comes from scum than from town.

Its not implausible at all. Both alignments could say that, so its not really indicative. It wasnt a point for or against you.

yet you still think im scummy and post a scum motivation for it. the still thinking im scummy isnt my issue, its that you add an extra part that is totally unjustified. you even go so far as to call what i did "a good idea"

as i have said i think given your claim and my experience with you, that you are likely telling the truth in your claim. it is wifom and as such it doesnt clear all your other actions/statements. but that doesnt give you a pass

Okay, please clarify. Im not really in a mindset to post dive, but if you explain the context of your concerns, that would be good.

Did you breadcrumb this? If not, why not?

I laughed at this. Dodgy should be able to explain why, but just in case:
So, I was scum, and i fakecrumbed flavour cop from the start of the game to partway through D2. This was on Playdip. In the AAR, i entered into heavy discussion with other people, some of which said they find breadcrumbing to be a scum tell. Anyways, i decided not to breadcrumb for this game, because of past experiences with breadcrumbing.

Eyestott had four votes when you said this. He later got up to L-2, with no opposition other than me, and you still didn't say anything about it - you didn't unvote until his claim. I still think that the eyestott bandwagon had more support than the dave bandwagon. Do you disagree?

I did not like the active lurking Eyes was doing by being active on the forum and not posting in the thread and that was my main focus, I was however not on the wagon when he claimed as I voted Mastin before because I liked the case TTH made on her (and I have an open post to her about it), so that is incorrect. I agree that by the end the Eyes bandwagon had more support.

I tend to post less when i'm heavily suspected. I know its not healthy, but being the top scumread is actually pretty demotivational for me.

It should be, what common sense is that, if you don't have to reaveal you are a PR you shouldn't, I guess if we had 1 day to decide on a lynch I could see your point but it is not the case here, that's more a debate about correct play rather than something alignment indicative though.

Yeah, no. Everyone except Wicked was scumreading me. If i hadnt claimed, I am sure i would have been lynched.

I thought it was rather suspicious that eyestott had percentages ready at hand. Also bothers me that all the stats posted so far before Heartless are on how unlikely the 2nd tracker is, while avoiding the issue of how likely it is to be fake and there be no I's.

Yeah, I literally learned how to do that exact thing a few months ago.
Its certainly possible there were no Is (I know there are) but whether I'm telling the truth will show through my results.

[eyestott]

Okay, so, I'm a tracker.

Gonna be blunt: don't buy it. Not for a minute.

That having been said...

unvote,
VOTE: davesaz.

Because while I'm about 80% sure eyestott's lying through his teeth and is actually scum, I have this annoying little policy of not lynching PR claims, however untruthful I think them to be, on D1, particularly given the chance (albeit remote) of the 20%.

Why do you not buy it?
In fact, why have you been scumreading me? I know you are, but you havent really explained why.
P.edit: I made this post when the post i quoted was the most recent one. I dont know if youve explained your scumread on me, but could you comment on it if you havent yet?

[eyestott]

Wait, you said you'd lynch me in a heartbeat, even though your reasons are "little stuff here and there, mostly gut". You look like you're trying to downplay how much you're scum reading me.
If you had to kill one person and keep the day going at the current everything, minus one player, who would you kill?
If you were made king, who would you lynch? Would you be content with lynching them a few RL days into the day?

[eyestott]

Also, so if you think this is how I would have fakeclaimed as scum, how do you think town tracker me would've claimed?

[eyestott]

Wait, you said you'd lynch me in a heartbeat, even though your reasons are "little stuff here and there, mostly gut".

Yeah, and?

If you had to kill one person and keep the day going at the current everything, minus one player, who would you kill?

Dunno, depends. I really don't like the vig role. I might use it to kill dave, or might use it to kill someone lotsa people are talking about like dodgy. I'd want info gained.

I mean, I'm one of your top scumreads, yet you haven't really made a case against me.
You've explained your reads on many of the other players, but it seems as if you're trying to avoid the question of why exactly you're scumreading me.

[eyestott]

What about the kingmake question?

[eyestott]

Also, so if you think this is how I would have fakeclaimed as scum, how do you think town tracker me would've claimed?

Similarly, but more genuine? Hard to explain.

See, this is what I'm talking about. You've not given specifics, which makes it impossible for me to explain myself.

[eyestott]

Do you have strong reasons that you don't want to share? Is that why you've been darting around making a case against me? I'm legitimately confused.

[eyestott]

You're putting pressure on me to see if I crack, aren't you?

[eyestott]

This is like, a test, yeah? Because it would have been very easy for you to give legitimate reasons to scumread me.

[eyestott]

Almost everyone has posted, but only

6

people have confirmed in the way instructed.

You should all have your Role PMs.

The Game thread is here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=60351

Please confirm by posting "Ready" in-thread.

Ready

[eyestott]

Obviously I'm not getting a reply, so I'm going to bed.

[eyestott]

What do you think of Mastins case against me?

[eyestott]

I've decided that I'm going to stay up for just a while longer, as this is around the time that most players should be getting up.

[eyestott]

Does the nothingness extend to your scumread of me?
I mean, if it does, fine, I can wait till tomorrow for you to give your case. But if not, ASAP please.

[eyestott]

Okay, my dodgy scumread has lessened considerably. A game on my homesite with dodgy in it was just abandoned due to inactivity of other players, and TownDodgy had been tunnelling another town player for a large part of the game.
Prior to this, Tunnelling was not something i saw a lot of in dodgy.

Responses soon.

[eyestott]

I forgot to UNVOTE: .
I'm doing stuff in another game, but I will get around to this one.

[eyestott]

I know I said I'd get to this game, but I had to take a break from mafia today.
Apologies.

[eyestott]

so, we need consolidation.
unofficial vc

killapenwin (0) -
davesaz (4) -Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo, Mastin2, Heartless,
copper223 (2) - BlueBloodedToffee, killapenwin,
dodgy56 (1) - vettrock,
Wickedestjr (1) - beastcharizard
Tean Samargo (2) - Aneninen, dodgy56
eyestott (1) - copper223
Heartless (1) - davesaz
I am most likely going to vote copper, as a few of his posts have been pinging me as quite suspicious. I will try and find them.

[eyestott]

Spoiler: 549

FML with these early claims,

remove your votes from Eyes.

Spoiler: 554

You are braindead if you think I'm going to lynch a PR claim D1

, if it doesn't sort itself we can talk about it when it becomes relevant.

Spoiler: 568

This is all besides the point,

the play today unless he gets cc'd is to leave him alone.

Spoiler: 641

@Wicked

If there is no cc I believe Eyes for today

, in this case his read on Dodgy and my personal impression they were both scummy in the exchange, Eyes because the theory arguments he made were bad and Dodgy because he was scumreading Eyes for every second sentence, make Dodgy a good lynch for today. I do not believe they are scum together nor did I, I did find them both scummy individually.

Spoiler: 797

- I am vengeful so my lynch isn't too bad for town and that was plan b), we can pick a second player we find scummy, I think BBT is a fine choice, at worst we get rid of useless town and it is unusual for him to get this many town reads, the style of posting he has been going with, the point by point catch-up is also a departure from town BBT as I know him, the fact he says he usually pays more attention as scum is an interesting note, but

am open to suggestions that do not involve Eyestott

, I am also very skeptical about the claim but

not willing to shoot a possible PR.

Something big changes here. Big. Copper was previously not considering me on policy. Yet, now he starts voicing a desire for my death, even though he knows that my lynch today is pretty much impossible to achieve, given what he has already said.

Spoiler: 883

- Dave's wagon failed, at least from my pov, becuase Aneninen told me he was town, that's when I gave my both Dodgy and Eyes look scummy in their interaction read and when the two of them started to get more attention.

- The wagon on Eyes failed because he claimed tracker.

- My wagon stalled when I claimed vengeful.

I've gotta say,

following my reads this game I really want to lynch or shoot Eyestott.

Spoiler: 904

VOTE: Eyestott

at the end of the day you have to trust your reads most and they are telling me he is scum despite getting lucky.

Spoiler: 909

The first point was the VCA I did and finding out there is a pretty slim chance of both Dave and Eyes being town, before doing it I hadn't realized that was the case. Once you assume one is scum and one is town I went through the people supporting either one or the other and I noticed I was always reading the dave supporters as town in isolation, only the fact Eyes claimed tracker was changing my read on them, and as I said that's the wrong approach, if your reads tell you a) and a claim tells you b), you should listen to your reads or you should play another game.

This definitely feels as if copper is purposefully voting for a wagon that he knows will not happen, to increase the chance of a no lynch.

Spoiler: weird vibes from conversation directly after tracker reveal

Copper is scum if eyestott is scum.

Tracker is a great fake claim for scum.

Exactly.

So, its pretty clear that I'm responding with affirmation to the part of the post that doesnt make this post a scumclaim, yeah?

Are you claiming scum?

Asks if i'm claiming he is scum. Understandable mistake, so I clarify:

No, but I'm saying that, if I were scum, I'd likely pick tracker. It's easy to fake, given that in this game, it's just a yes/no of whether the person made an action.

I make it clear here which part I was referring to.

No, but I'm saying that, if I were scum, I'd likely pick tracker. It's easy to fake, given that in this game, it's just a yes/no of whether the person made an action.

and this is relevant why since you are saying you are legit tracker and you therefore should know we are not scum together?

Yet he insists that I'm claiming scum with him.

Oh yeah. Id be unlikely to fakeclaiming an investigative when I'm in a game with someone from Fable.
I fakeclaimed a Flavor cop, to be precise, and I breadcrumbed it and everything.
P.edit: I wasn't responding to the part about us as a team. I was responding to the other part.

Now I explicitly say I wasnt responding to the team part.

Yes, the part where BBT says if you are scum so am I? So are you claiming scum with me? I don't really mind a 1v1.

1 for 1 is what I meant there.

And yet he continues to be obtuse about it. He cannot legitimately believe I was trying to scumclaim right after revealing I'm a tracker.

Yes, the part where BBT says if you are scum so am I? So are you claiming scum with me? I don't really mind a 1v1.

NO!
I was just responding to the part that said that tracker is a great fakeclaiming for scum.

Good, I don't need a townread to not lynch you D1, just common sense.

If you are scum you already screwed the pooch and you have at most 2 days left to survive, there is no KP reduction this game so I have no interest in lynching someone that is already a dead man walking if he is scum (there is no prize for winning the game faster), I do have a vested interest in not lynching a possibly town PR when there is very little need to.

FoS BBT for that BS.

All of a sudden, he understands.

I'll sum it up again, just in case one of you has the misfortune of being tracker and is not claiming:

There is a 7% probability of there being 2 full trackers in this setup.

If a tracker cc's here, 93 times out of 100 we have a guaranteed scum lynch within the first two days and close to a 50% chance of lynching scum on our first day.

This play is superior to any other possible lynch you could come up with day 1, in comparison the average lynch rate based on reads is close to the probability of randomly lynching scum (some say even worse), which in this setup averages roughly 25% (half as much).

So if you are tracker it's necessary for you to claim here.

Okay, this point is because of his maths.
He clearly understands the binomial theorem. He would almost definitely know about conditional probability.
Because:
If there are 0 trackers, and I am fakeclaiming, then it was is extremely unlikely that I would be counterclaimed. This means that while "Pr(0 Ts)" is .32 "Pr(0 Ts | a CC)" is actually closer to 0. The same kind of thing can be done for other scenarios too.
Copper really should have thought about this, and while its not a very strong point, its a point nonetheless.
I am going to consolidate to VOTE: Copper.
If you are a vengeful, dont kill me. If i'm town, thats two PRs gone before N1 starts, and If I'm mafia, ill get caught out eventually.

[eyestott]

I am most likely going to vote copper, as a few of his posts have been pinging me as quite suspicious. I will try and find them.

For the record, I'm basically just assuming eyestott's scum at this point.

Please please please explain.
You only have one game with me where I was scum, and that was where I had no associatives, as the buddy kept replacing out.
Why do you keep saying I am scum, but not actually back up your claim with any evidence, but do it for other players? And you keep missing questions i ask you, which drives me crazy. You havent really interacted with me all that much, but youve been calling me scum all day. It's pretty infuriating, to be honest.