Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Whatisswag]

Grib
RubikAshtray
I Love Fairies

have not confirmed. Mafia found. Easy game guys.

VOTE: RubikAshtray

[Whatisswag]

I think we should hypoclaim recruiting mason and who we will target n1

[Whatisswag]

Btw, mine was a serious vote, in case anyone had not noticed.

You ask: Why lynch someone who is late at confirming?

1) They could be scum trying to have more pre-game planning.

2) They have a higher probability of being lurkers.

Lets quicklynch this fairy-dude by page two
VOTE: I love Fairies

[Whatisswag]

I think we should hypoclaim recruiting mason and who we will target n1

In addition, I think we should do this on day 2 right before our lynch. Mason recruit n1, If scum found, then announce day 2. Then right before the lynch we hypoclaim mason so that we can get 1 innocent dude. What do you guys think?

[Whatisswag]

Ok at least you are more active that Rubik

VOTE: RubikAshtray

[Whatisswag]

Why not? quicklynches are fun

[Whatisswag]

Example of a fun quicklynch: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=44815

[Whatisswag]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _Anti-town

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... nfirmation

[Whatisswag]

And this too: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _be_Random

[Whatisswag]

And also, Riddle is town as much as I like bandwagons. Votes off.

[Whatisswag]

I'd recruit a null read. Because there's no weak modifier (ie. I don't die if I misrecruit) it basically acts as a 1-shot cop.

I would actually recruit a town read. I would rather to be able to talk to a conf town then to find a mafia.

[Whatisswag]

I'd recruit a null read. Because there's no weak modifier (ie. I don't die if I misrecruit) it basically acts as a 1-shot cop.

I would actually recruit a town read. I would rather to be able to talk to a conf town then to find a mafia.

And by doing so, in the case the town read was actually mafia, then it is great! This will means that the mafioso will not be able to continue act to be town and deceive us further

[Whatisswag]

the mason fishing is horrible.

Explain how hypoclaim is role-fishing since everyone claims.

[Whatisswag]

And I dont see that Corp is unvoting Riddle.

[Whatisswag]

I like for my first vote to be on someone I've played with before.

And why is that not me? I feel so sad.

[Whatisswag]

Hypoclaim is rolefishing because the moment you claim recruited mason scum knows who did the recruiting.

Wait why would recruited mason claim?

[Whatisswag]

Twas the night before Christmas and all through the thread
There was voting at random to see who'd wind up dead
Scum was lining their lynches for the beginning with care
Maybe even by putting a vote on someone who was not yet there...

VOTE: whatisswag

Why?

Btw, are you going to post in this mode throughout the game? If so, I want to puke.

[Whatisswag]

I'd recruit a null read. Because there's no weak modifier (ie. I don't die if I misrecruit) it basically acts as a 1-shot cop.

I would actually recruit a town read. I would rather to be able to talk to a conf town then to find a mafia.

I have been thinking about this. I think recuriting someone who is active rather than someone who is a town read is a better choice.

[Whatisswag]

Note for all players: i love to use underlining within a quote to respond to a specific part of it.

the mason fishing is horrible.

Explain how hypoclaim is role-fishing since everyone claims.

Hypoclaim is rolefishing because the moment you claim recruited mason scum knows who did the recruiting.

Wait why would recruited mason claim?

You're gonna have to explain that first post then. Regardless, just the fact that someone's a mason immediately points to the guy who says they'd recruit them. As such, I see 0 reason for masons to hypoclaim truthfully and would actually recommend lying or running it through an RNG.

But at least we have an innocent dude to lead us.

Edit: Riddleton answered correctly, nullread is best choice. Scumreads you can get lynched anyway, townreads are just gonna take the NK and you can't really get much out of masonizing them.

true

[Whatisswag]

Btw here are the four games I played on MS from earliest to latest. As you can see, I dont have a fixed style of play as either faction (except the part about claiming scum). I would say meta on me is useless, but if people insist...
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=58838
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59515
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59745
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59949

And how the shit is Mathdino in this game?

[Whatisswag]

I see we're beyond RVS already, which is fine I guess. We have a Christmas dinner for 18 going tomorrow afternoon, so it may be 24 hours before I can really get going on this game. If I get enough time between gifts and the beginning of dinner prep I'll try to get on, but no promises.

Hannibal, did/do you play mafia on CFC?

RVS is shit.

[Whatisswag]

I see we're beyond RVS already, which is fine I guess. We have a Christmas dinner for 18 going tomorrow afternoon, so it may be 24 hours before I can really get going on this game. If I get enough time between gifts and the beginning of dinner prep I'll try to get on, but no promises.

Hannibal, did/do you play mafia on CFC?

RVS is shit.

There are two ways to get out of RVS:

Use set-up stuff (which I already did)

Use game-related information (which I also did by the late confirmation argument + vote)

nothing much about elle. If anything, then I think she is null-town from the early confirmation during the pregame.

I still remember the first 4 to confirm:

elle
dave
kaboose
NJAC

[Whatisswag]

Riddleton is too reckless to be mafia

[Whatisswag]

I kinda feel Riddleton, in the sense that from my play, it seems that he is town

[Whatisswag]

You don't understand, I just pasted your unvote
Was there something you think that I missed in the quote?
All I see in your post is "I don't like this, 'tis amiss"
And "I liked how he followed up with a list"

But what makes you think the strat wasn't pre-planned?
I already noted his scumhunting's bland
It's robotic, like limited tricks in his bag
So I've a theory, again, don't mean to nag

Bland scumhunting, as you say it, dont mean I am scum.

His reason for suspicions is scum stalling pre-game
Wouldn't it make sense to watch the list of all names
To see who was letting his team keep on posting
And recycle as scumhunting for purposes of boasting?

That is the best way for my vote to be on someone

I can't say whether or not that is what went down
What I am saying is the confirmation shit isn't town

Whatever

Now you've mentioned no aspect of his play since that fight
So care to flesh the townread, shed bits of light?

[Whatisswag]

... is explained in the unvote.

I think this is a town characteristic as this shows a slight bit of frustration. I would choose to be cautious and attempt to explain more deeply as scum. But 1 town characteristic is not enough for me to make a conclusion.

[Whatisswag]

Again, robotic. I feel like Riddleton's joking around is exactly the kind of thing he'd do as any alignment. There was no way he'd actually get lynched for claiming shit.

Recklessness is a playstyletell, not an alignment tell.

This could be explained by you using outdated scumhunting methods. So your meta is actually not useless since I can go check to see if all this stuff is playstyle.

This is why I like to play with people I dont know. I dont get bias reads based on meta. To me Riddleton is town, I dont really care what it is to you as long as it does not affect me.

[Whatisswag]

Oh wait corpses is a hydra took me so long to notice...

[Whatisswag]

Kaboose looks like he does not mind being voted against.

[Whatisswag]

Makes sense.

Right now, I'm actually leaning towards a Riddle lynch. With the way they've interacted, I would not be surprised if both were in cohorts. They don't seem town enough to me to be a Mason team so that leaves a scum team. How I see it, Swagilicious is trying to distance himself from Riddle and Riddle is trying to protect McPimpSwag. However, I'm not so positive on Swaggy distancing himself from Riddle, it's possible SwaggersMcGee just doesn't have much of an opinion on Riddle, which I suppose is understandable because I don't have a strong opinion on EVERYONE yet.

The masons recruit n1 or after n1, so there is no mason team at the moment. Is there a need to call me four different names?

[Whatisswag]

Wait there are 2 masons already? Holy shit I misread the setup. I thought there was 1 mason in the game who had to recruit another one to make it 2

[Whatisswag]

I'd recruit a null read. Because there's no weak modifier (ie. I don't die if I misrecruit) it basically acts as a 1-shot cop.

There was 39 minutes between this post and the original question. So I think that Riddleton was thinking of this question on the spot. Green, why do you ask?>

[Whatisswag]

General thoughts:

1. swag's ideas of who might be scum based on confirm timing are bad, but strike me as something that would more likely come from town trying to be creative, rather than scum trying to look busy.

Whatever

2. No idea what Corpses is talking about w/r/t swag's input being "robotic" or whatever; faint lean scum read because of Corpses's focus on shooting down swag's contribution rather than adding to the thread himself.

Robotic means that my "scumhunting" efforts are seemingly made with the purpose of looking town

3. That said, I do agree with Corpses w/r/t Riddle's Page 1 interaction with swag being null, not alignment indicative.

4. Stop rhyming.

5. Kaboose's self-vote is bad. I used to have a no-excuse policy for self voting, but these days I see it as nothing but harmless (and valueless) unless context indicates otherwise. Kaboose's Page 4, second real day of the game, first game post, on Christmas Day, self vote does not strike me as scummy. It strikes me as lazy input. Null.

He did not do it in the game that I played though.

[Whatisswag]

Ok at least you are more active that Rubik

VOTE: RubikAshtray

If anything, last to confirm should be null
To say confirmation means something is bull.
If people are scum for stalling pre-game
Why after game-start would he continue the same?

for lurking purposes

[Whatisswag]

I like for my first vote to be on someone I've played with before.

And why is that not me? I feel so sad.

Well, I can only vote for one person at a time.

Why are you worrying about the Masons and tossing around self-meta? It's more distracting than anything else.

It was still the quite-early stages at that point since only 3 to 4 people were discussing things beyond RVS at that point, I wanted to know what everyone thinks

[Whatisswag]

The way I scum hunt is relating the person I see to myself (another way of saying: I dont scum hunt by logic, I scum hunt by gut).

B.

I have no real justification for this beyond gut, but Post 109 feels town. I'm telling myself now to disregard that pretty weak gut feeling.

I say this as town, and I dont see the scum motivation in this to just say "oh my logic sucks so I am going by gut, hope you understand."

I went more in-depth because I didn't have a coherent feeling towards Fairies. Hence the lack of any comment about her. The same goes for any other player I have yet to comment about. Your inquiry prompted me to solidify how I felt. I conveyed the process and end result, per request.

Yes. It's not a "slip" (I hate that buzzword) or anything of that magnitude, but it's a comment that looks more like clever scum than town.

As scum, I tend to view all town players to be similar. But Green distinguishes ILF from the other two which seems like genuine opinion rather than a fake opinion.

[Whatisswag]

@swag: How strong are your reads?

Not very strong
Green is towny.
Riddle is null-town
Rest are null.

[Whatisswag]

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

[Whatisswag]

UNVOTE:

[Whatisswag]

@fairies: Can you elaborate on how Riddle and swag's interaction seems scum-scum? Is it because they're town reading each other?

Sort of. I'm scum reading Riddle because I feel like he's either whiteknighting or protecting Swagerella, both of which, to me, are indicative of scum attempting to get towncred. I just feel like there have been more going on than just the situation with Swagimus but Riddle has only focused his thoughts and efforts in regards to the Swagina Situation. That's my justification for thinking Riddle is protecting Swaggerello an unnecessarily heavy amount.

I have seen people calling me newb town as town players themselves. To me this is null-town, as I have defended other towns as town too.

I said I'm less certain about Swagginy being scum because while Riddle's actions are scum, that does not necessarily reflect on Swaggles as he might just be ignoring Riddle's attempt to whiteknight him, which I understand, I've done the same in previous games, but at the same time, it's possible he is just trying to distance himself in case his case is doomed.

However, this:

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

Weakens his position in my mind. It's very possible that he's just looking for a specific reaction from a specific person before he calls out the person he is scum reading, but that doesn't seem likely to me.

Yes, if I point that person right out, that person might just change playstyle and it would be kind of harder to read if it changes.

To me, this just seems like he's trying to paint himself as an oracle-like player who has uniquely beneficial insight into the game, which, I'm sorry, you don't (and neither do the rest of us).

I see no situation in which it would be more beneficial to claim to have a scumread and not elaborate than to elaborate on that or to just not post their claim of a scumread.

I'd also like to see some explanation behind his reads.

Green: post 153

Riddle is gut.

Null reads coming up in my next post.



It's easy for someone to just fake a read in the way that he did. It's still easy to fake an explanation as well, but it's still more difficult and gives us important insight in the event that he's town or information in which to strengthen a case against him should we further suspect him of being scum. SwaggerMaster, will you enlighten me on your thought process behind your reads? Don't explain your scumread if you still find it beneficial to leave it unspoken, while I think that's a bad idea, you might not, so I give you a pass on that one. Otherwise, I would like to understand your thoughts on your scumread and your decision not to reveal it.

[Whatisswag]

Bleh I forgot to underline

@fairies: Can you elaborate on how Riddle and swag's interaction seems scum-scum? Is it because they're town reading each other?

Sort of. I'm scum reading Riddle because I feel like he's either whiteknighting or protecting Swagerella, both of which, to me, are indicative of scum attempting to get towncred. I just feel like there have been more going on than just the situation with Swagimus but Riddle has only focused his thoughts and efforts in regards to the Swagina Situation. That's my justification for thinking Riddle is protecting Swaggerello an unnecessarily heavy amount.

I have seen people calling me newb town as town players themselves. To me this is null-town, as I have defended other towns as town too.

I said I'm less certain about Swagginy being scum because while Riddle's actions are scum, that does not necessarily reflect on Swaggles as he might just be ignoring Riddle's attempt to whiteknight him, which I understand, I've done the same in previous games, but at the same time, it's possible he is just trying to distance himself in case his case is doomed.

However, this:

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

Weakens his position in my mind. It's very possible that he's just looking for a specific reaction from a specific person before he calls out the person he is scum reading, but that doesn't seem likely to me.

Yes, if I point that person right out, that person might just change playstyle and it would be kind of harder to read if it changes.

To me, this just seems like he's trying to paint himself as an oracle-like player who has uniquely beneficial insight into the game, which, I'm sorry, you don't (and neither do the rest of us).

I see no situation in which it would be more beneficial to claim to have a scumread and not elaborate than to elaborate on that or to just not post their claim of a scumread.

I'd also like to see some explanation behind his reads.

Green: post 153

Riddle is gut.

Null reads coming up in my next post.

It's easy for someone to just fake a read in the way that he did. It's still easy to fake an explanation as well, but it's still more difficult and gives us important insight in the event that he's town or information in which to strengthen a case against him should we further suspect him of being scum. SwaggerMaster, will you enlighten me on your thought process behind your reads? Don't explain your scumread if you still find it beneficial to leave it unspoken, while I think that's a bad idea, you might not, so I give you a pass on that one. Otherwise, I would like to understand your thoughts on your scumread and your decision not to reveal it.

[Whatisswag]

Corpses is

a) town because of the high activity and scumhunting and the aggresiveness

b) scum because of only voting because of 1 reason (basically, I am robotic and elle's unvote is scummy)

Taking middle ground gives null

Grib is null as I cannot read him.

Elle is

a) town because she has both scum reads and town reads. it is kinda not easy to balance out scum read and town reads between people you know as town if you are scum.

b) scum because she does not scum hunt much and is more of a cautious person.

Taking middle ground gives null.

Fairy is

a) town because she has a few unique opinions (like the most recent post) that kind of stands out from the crowd.

b) scum because she does not really like to use her vote, which is what I find in a scum.

The rest I cannot remember and hence I put them as null.

Now is still not the time to reveal scum read.

[Whatisswag]

Sup. I am here to dramatically flop around as a replacement.

Taking middle ground gives null.

The way I scum hunt is relating the person I see to myself (another way of saying: I dont scum hunt by logic, I scum hunt by gut).

Something about the way that you're adding together what you see as scumtells and towntells to get nullreads while also saying that you scumhunt using gut feels off. I think it's that using generic towntells/scumtells and adding them together feels anything but gutbased. I might be getting caught up in semantics, so please try to elaborate on this so I can avoid being an idiot and getting caught up in a dumb argument about nothing here.

I try to consider both from that person's scum and town perspective and I link it to how I play scum and town and I try to spot the similarity/differences

@Riddleton

, I did a lazy metadive on Swag. In his last scumgame he used a lot of setup speculation/theorycrafting early on and in his last towngame he didn't. Does that influence how strongly you're townreading his early posts this game considering how much of it is theorycrafting-ish?

My last scum game was a greatest idea and my last town game was a normal.

I don't want to vote for any of them. The points raised against elle and Kaboose are meh.

What do you think of the points on whatisswag? I feel like you've danced around talking about him assuming I didn't just miss something in my readback.

@Green

, earlier on why were you voting Riddle over Grib, Corpses or elle? What were you hoping to get out of that single line of questioning that made him worth voting for? Also, what do you make of awesome's simultaneous townread/inability to read you and the players that are ramping up pressure on him for it?

So it looks like Corpses is taking action to look like he's advocating for a protown strategy, when really he's just advocating for basic game play.

Not really seeing why this is clearly scum-motivated and not just a bad play on Corpse's part.

[Whatisswag]

Also, this is my first game in which there are masons, so I ask.

[Whatisswag]

Everytime I see your posts, I look for my name first.

Note: I italicized Swaggidon's reply to me as I was too lazy to pick apart the quotes and the underlines. My apologies.

"I have seen people calling me newb town as town players themselves. To me this is null-town, as I have defended other towns as town too."

My suspicion about his protection is not that he's defending you, it's in the manner that he is defending you.

Like hard defending?

"Yes, if I point that person right out, that person might just change playstyle and it would be kind of harder to read if it changes."

Personally, I would rather see how they change their playstyle and how they react to this exchange than to just continue to study their unfiltered actions. Scum often act differently under pressure and that's pouring pressure onto people is one of the most effective ways of finding scum.

Your reads don't actually provide much of an explanation as to why the defining characteristics of the player is scummy. Tell me why "a) town because she has a few unique opinions (like the most recent post) that kind of stands out from the crowd." is townish behavior. The only part where you explain the why well is point B under Elle.

It was a brief overview. Also, the specific response to the above is that scum likes to hide within the crowd to prevent scum slips. by having a different opinions, it is like telling others that she is different.

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

This is bleeding town. This would be absurd for newbie scum to post.

Okay, why?

[Whatisswag]

Why are you answering for Riddle q.q
I was half asking because I'm trying to read him too. q.q

Ok oops

[Whatisswag]

Ok my scum read was (and still is) davesaz.

I see we're beyond RVS already, which is fine I guess. We have a Christmas dinner for 18 going tomorrow afternoon, so it may be 24 hours before I can really get going on this game. If I get enough time between gifts and the beginning of dinner prep I'll try to get on, but no promises.

Hannibal, did/do you play mafia on CFC?

Useless

VOTE: unvote

Wasn't fond of the 'Here, let me link other people's theories on something that's being asked of

me

...'
But liked that you could follow it up with knowing the first-to-confirms given one of those linked explanations on why you'd think that. Was looking at the same pregame.

Unvotes just after RVS are scummy. It's an unnecessary defensive move that looks like "Hey, I'm doing something" when there's no need to.

VOTE: elle

You've been busted, my friend. Life is tough sometimes. I imagine your parents must be very dissapointed in you. Who are your partners?

Did you get what you wanted from this vote?

Useless

I like for my first vote to be on someone I've played with before.

And why is that not me? I feel so sad.

Well, I can only vote for one person at a time.

Why are you worrying about the Masons and tossing around self-meta? It's more distracting than anything else.

Was there a satisfying answer to this question?

Useless

There is a masons team, composed by two masons. They will recruit another member at any time in the game. Read the setup and Sample Role PMs.

Any thoughts beyond the setup speculation yet?

Useless

Hm.

VOTE: davesaz

Ask less pointless questions.

Patience, grasshopper. The point will be clearer in time.

Useless

If by "point" you mean "the rest of my teammates," then I'm all for patience.

This strikes me as something scum would say, trying to be clever.

Do you really think that?

Do you always jump to conclusions about whether there is a point to a question or not, or only when you're scum?

Useless

@Riddleton:

VOTE: unvote

Wasn't fond of the 'Here, let me link other people's theories on something that's being asked of

me

...'
But liked that you could follow it up with knowing the first-to-confirms given one of those linked explanations on why you'd think that. Was looking at the same pregame.

Unvotes just after RVS are scummy. It's an unnecessary defensive move that looks like "Hey, I'm doing something" when there's no need to.

VOTE: elle

You've been busted, my friend. Life is tough sometimes. I imagine your parents must be very dissapointed in you. Who are your partners?

Did you get what you wanted from this vote?

You voted for elle. Did this post and vote have a purpose, and if there was one did you get anything from it?

Useless

As we can currently see, davesaz is doing nothing other than asking question.
1) These questions served little to zero purpose.
2) These questions are the way to look like he is scum hunting.
3) He did not scum hunt.
4) I did a search of his posts. in his previous same game (as town) of "Making Friends and Enemies", he was much more willing to speak out loud.
5) What is up with the conservative vote? The prev game, he was much more willing to vote than this game.

@davesaz: I see a lot of questions from you but you're not really supplying any opinions yourself. What do you think of Grib, riddle, and swag?

I hadn't had enough minutes at the same time to really do anything, at the time I posted those questions, so I didn't have an opinion on anyone.

The way Grib responded to my questions seemed like scum opportunism, since there is nothing alignment indicative in starting with simple questions. But it's only a null-scum at most, town could do that to see if the target feels pressured by the vote. Riddle either missed my question or decided not to answer. (Pedit: Ok, there's an answer now but I haven't had a chance to see how that answer meshes with his later activity)

Still haven't had enough time to really read anyone, other than scan for my name and see if my questions got replies.

This is another thing. Checking his name... He does not really care about other players than himself.

I did catch two themes that I can respond to in a general way.

Don't remember whose topic the "people who haven't confirmed are making scum plans" thing was. It's a decent conversation starter but should not be used as any kind of real logic, especially at holiday time. There's a pretty good chance that the late confirmers were just traveling or otherwise prevented from being on internet at all. You can't read anything directly into the timing, and even reaction testing off it is chancy given the likelihood that people may be annoyed you're not making allowances for the season.

The setup speculation happens all the time, especially when players haven't experienced this particular setup but also as a form of role fishing in hopes that newbs might not know they can reveal their role inadvertently. It isn't strongly indicative of alignment, but the people who focus on it the most get put in my "watch closely" pile, as do the ones who are present but don't comment on it at all.

Analysis to follow, as I get more time to actually do the research and not just skim.

dave is focusing on Grib and almost no one else. If he was town, I expect him to have a wider outlook.

dave does not have a strong opinion on someone, as he is scared of being refuted.

dave is only commenting on the most general two things that are happening, he just ignore player interactions

dave is scum.

VOTE: davesaz

[Whatisswag]

If only I had half of the votes, I would just end the day with lynching davesaz.

[Whatisswag]

And why Grib? that is a thing I want to know.

[Whatisswag]

I would say that Grib is town if dave is scum. And by the logic that scum likes to ignore their scum partners (which happens very oftenly), Green and NJAC are both not scum. I would think that one of {Corpses, elle, ILF} is his partner.

[Whatisswag]

@Riddleton: If you were a mason who would you recruit and why?

This question, unlike most of dave's question, is a question that actually sparks more discussion.

@Riddleton: If you were a mason who would you recruit and why?

Is this a good thing to discuss or does it give too much information to scum?

I don't see why it would be a bad thing to discuss or how much info it might give to scum. Please enlighten me.

He takes a firm position here.

[Whatisswag]

I agree with swag, most of dave's posts have been light-hearted questions that don't spark too much discussion. However, I'm inclined to think it's playstyle as in some people like to start games taking a passive stance and don't get too involved into later on in the game.

Hmm, dave starts out more positively in the prev game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=59151

Why? 1 possible reason I think is still because this is early stages of the game.

@davesaz

hope you contribute with opinions and not questions. That will get my scum read off you.

[Whatisswag]

The ideas and thought process from swag, while not always correct, shows a townie way of thinking. He's pretty town, and I doubt that read will be shaken in the near future.

How do you know it would not be shaken in the near future when (in a situation) masons recruit me and fail? Also, I dont see why scum would change their townreads. This is scummy.

@Riddle:

I'd recruit a null read. Because there's no weak modifier (ie. I don't die if I misrecruit) it basically acts as a 1-shot cop.

How long did it take for you to come up with this response?

Not so long. I've been thinking about this before the game began.

Why have you been thinking?
1) you are vt. Then ok... I dont think this is possible.
2) you are mason trying to know who to recruit. But if this is the case, this crumb is a bit too obvious
3) you are scum trying to predict who the mason will recruit.

Yes, the vote had a purpose. As I said in the post you quoted, "Unvotes just after RVS are scummy. It's an unnecessary defensive move that looks like "Hey, I'm doing something" when there's no need to.". It's a serious vote.

What's your read one Elle now? I found it weird that you voted her for something that you say is scummy, did nothing afterwards with regard to her, and sheeped a wagon. But when asked whether the vote had a purpose and if you were satisfied with the result, you said the vote was serious.

Still scummy; but not as much so as Corpses. I guess you could say a minor scumread.

I see you are going with the flow

[Whatisswag]

I like for my first vote to be on someone I've played with before.

And why is that not me? I feel so sad.

Well, I can only vote for one person at a time.

Why are you worrying about the Masons and tossing around self-meta? It's more distracting than anything else.

Seems like Grib does not care about the presence of masons, which makes him look town.

But also, I see the Grib completely ignores elle and Corpses. Possible scum team?

[Whatisswag]

Did not see this.

@whatisswag (in reference to 226-229)

Interesting.
That's a lot of lead-up for a sadly underwhelming post

So davesaz is scum because of useless posting - despite that he explains previous to any of this that his lack of posting is due to the holidays and not having time? Which would essentially negate all five of those first points you have there.

The part on him only interacting 'with Grib and almost no one else' is ridic misleading. It's not hard to ISO him to see who he's directing his 9 posts to:

1) Hannibal
2) Riddleton
3) Grib
4) NJAC
5) Grib
6) Grib
7) Riddleton
8) awesomeusername
9) whatisswag

Grib has the majority due to a response but it's hardly 'almost no one else'.

What do you think of his thoughts that the confirmation order is largely irrelevant in this game due to the holidays - a theory that actually coincides with his reasoning for being more inactive than usual?

Do you think it's likely to be coming from scum when it's actually negating one of the reasons he may be seen as town - due to being one of the first four to confirm?

Did something significant happen in the day you waited to reveal your scumread that proved he was scum for you?

But the point is that dave is asking questions but not saying much opinion previously. It would be much better to say opinions than to ask questions.

Oh and I forgot he was one of the first to confirm.

[Whatisswag]

@Swag, can you please not speculate about teams and masons? Stuff like 229 is good; stuff like 255 isn't. Thanks.

Damn, I probably should not play in games with masons.

[Whatisswag]

@Swag, can you please not speculate about teams and masons? Stuff like 229 is good; stuff like 255 isn't. Thanks.

Damn, I probably should not play in games with masons.

because the other thing I use besides gut is scumteam hunting.

[Whatisswag]

Did not see this.

@whatisswag (in reference to 226-229)

Interesting.
That's a lot of lead-up for a sadly underwhelming post

So davesaz is scum because of useless posting - despite that he explains previous to any of this that his lack of posting is due to the holidays and not having time? Which would essentially negate all five of those first points you have there.

The part on him only interacting 'with Grib and almost no one else' is ridic misleading. It's not hard to ISO him to see who he's directing his 9 posts to:

1) Hannibal
2) Riddleton
3) Grib
4) NJAC
5) Grib
6) Grib
7) Riddleton
8) awesomeusername
9) whatisswag

Grib has the majority due to a response but it's hardly 'almost no one else'.

What do you think of his thoughts that the confirmation order is largely irrelevant in this game due to the holidays - a theory that actually coincides with his reasoning for being more inactive than usual?

Do you think it's likely to be coming from scum when it's actually negating one of the reasons he may be seen as town - due to being one of the first four to confirm?

Did something significant happen in the day you waited to reveal your scumread that proved he was scum for you?

But the point is that dave is asking questions but not saying much opinion previously. It would be much better to say opinions than to ask questions.

Oh and I forgot he was one of the first to confirm.

Lol, even when you do see it, you're not actually answering the questions...

So he's basically just scum now because you think he should be giving his opinions rather than asking questions that you deem useless.

Why do you think stating opinions as town is better than asking questions? Do you think stating opinions will give us more information than asking questions will?

It is not about providing information. it is about the fact that he was not stating opinions.

[Whatisswag]

Scum hates to say opinion, they rather look like they were scumhunting. And those questions also looked like he wanted to hide.

[Whatisswag]

Whatever. I dont like questions, but I must still respond to them. Sigh.

@whatisswag (in reference to 226-229)

Interesting.
That's a lot of lead-up for a sadly underwhelming post

So davesaz is scum because of useless posting - despite that he explains previous to any of this that his lack of posting is due to the holidays and not having time? Which would essentially negate all five of those first points you have there.

Then he could have used his time to say opinions.

The part on him only interacting 'with Grib and almost no one else' is ridic misleading. It's not hard to ISO him to see who he's directing his 9 posts to:

1) Hannibal

Not really

2) Riddleton

Yes

3) Grib

Yes

4) NJAC

Yes

5) Grib

Yes

6) Grib

Yes

7) Riddleton

Yes

8) awesomeusername

Not really

9) whatisswag

Grib has the majority due to a response but it's hardly 'almost no one else'.

What do you think of his thoughts that the confirmation order is largely irrelevant in this game due to the holidays - a theory that actually coincides with his reasoning for being more inactive than usual?

Do you think it's likely to be coming from scum when it's actually negating one of the reasons he may be seen as town - due to being one of the first four to confirm?

The confirmation case has partially closed.

Did something significant happen in the day you waited to reveal your scumread that proved he was scum for you?

Yes, he made post 186.

[Whatisswag]

I dont take real life as an excuse, I am sorry. I initially wanted to unvote dave but he kept saying real life. Whatever, I will keep voting him too. Also, I will take note to not play with elle in future games as she has distorted logic.

[Whatisswag]

Since my vote on dave is not getting much response (in terms of people who comment on it) UNVOTE: .

But I will be watching you, dave.

[Whatisswag]

And how sure is really sure? On Day 1, how sure is too sure? Point me to quotes or points that helped you form your reads, something concrete.

Reaaaally sure for me usually means I'd be willing to bet my lynch on it - ie, 1v1.

This is town.

[Whatisswag]

I disagree your disagree. I would absolutely love to do this as town except that I have to care about everyone too.

[Whatisswag]

I got ignored. My second time ignored in my games when a replacement replaces in.

[Whatisswag]

This.

I just can't figure out if he's town that's just making himself look scummier by not giving a damn about what he posts or scum that just doesn't know how to not give himself away.

I'm not getting anywhere - ask away, Cheetory.

How do I not give a damn?

[Whatisswag]

All 1v1 I have seen in my four games of mafia are town vs town. This should be the same, unless...

I will try to read closely to see whose arguments are less logic based but that will take a moment.

[Whatisswag]

A replacement. Did you read?

[Whatisswag]

You two are like completely into the details of argument and both of you are like raging. I have read and I believe you two are of the same alignment.

[Whatisswag]

her, maybe

[Whatisswag]

I have read and I believe you two are of the same alignment.

So you think it's TvT then?

I never said it was town versus town, I just said I think those two are of the same alignment.

[Whatisswag]

I dont take real life as an excuse, I am sorry. I initially wanted to unvote dave but he kept saying real life. Whatever, I will keep voting him too. Also, I will take note to not play with elle in future games as she has distorted logic.

I was just getting mad in this post. Not much information to provide. Why do you keep mentioning 311 312?

[Whatisswag]

The way that lone ranger only comments on Elle's most recent posts and ignores the rest looks like a POSSIBLE scum bussing scum. Town would have a wider view. But it could be possible that she just does not want to include the earlier posts. Even if I die, I dont believe Elle versus lone ranger are of the same alignment.

[Whatisswag]

I never said it was town versus town, I just said I think those two are of the same alignment.

But you called something that elle said town just a page before and have called things she's said before town as well. Shouldn't your stance be that both of them are likely to be town then?

The argument itself is either scum and scum or town and town.

And also, the reason I find it town town is because of the aggressiveness shown by both.

The reason I dont find it town scum is because I cannot really seem town pushing hard on scum and scum also pushing hard back.

Scum scum is because of possible bussing.

[Whatisswag]

Hello, I said the argument is both of the same alignment already. That has nothing to do with my reads. Even if elle is confirmed town to me and ranger is confirmed scum to me, I will still say it.

[Whatisswag]

I disagree your disagree. I would absolutely love to do this as town except that I have to care about everyone too.

The reason why I dont do this is because by doing this I overlook others, which happened exactly in this game, in which Grib happened to be scum: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59515

[Whatisswag]

Sigh, I would actually prefer to lynch lurkers but no one does that in any game, which makes me feel so sad.

[Whatisswag]

Hmm, a total of 6 people have voted elle. elle has voted a total of 2 players. If no bussing has occured, then elle is likely town. But what is there was bussing... Do any of you think elle might be town because of the wagon?

[Whatisswag]

Hmm, a total of 6 people have voted elle. elle has voted a total of 2 players. If no bussing has occured, then elle is likely town. But what is there was bussing... Do any of you think elle might be town because of the wagon?

She's voted three players: you, awesomeusername, and Lone Ranger.

What does bussing look like, in your experience?

I have never seen bussing before. Both games I played as town, one has independent mafias, one has almost a perfect win, leaving me no time to look at bussing.

[Whatisswag]

By my so-called "scum team analysis", I think awesomeusername is scum. And obviously since there are masons I would not say out who are the others.

VOTE: awesomeusername

There my vote stays for the rest of the day.

@lone ranger, that I will need to check.

[Whatisswag]

Ok my check shows that out of the total 8 scum I have played with, only one pushes back on town.

[Whatisswag]

So you don't even remember whether scum push back against townies, yet you are so adamant that me and Elle pushing back against each other cannot be scumVtown. Why?

Because I dont have a strong feel to the existence of scum pushing town, so I dont remember.

[Whatisswag]

Lol, I am probably not getting lynched today, neither is awesomeusername probably. Unless, there are people who actually listen to us...

[Whatisswag]

I'm so sorry that I haven't been able to respond recently. I don't really have a good excuse. I didn't know I would be gone as long as I was and should have called VLA. Next time I will do so.

Anyways, Elle's posts seem a lot more genuine than most of the other players in the game. I think she is one of the LAST people we want to lynch because I'm fairly positive she is town given her actions and she is vocal and actiony (idk what word to replace this with) than other people.

I'm still under the impression that SwaggerMayerWeiner is scum, regardless of the defenses he's put up and the defenses that his teammates put up. Part of me doesn't want to lynch him because I'm having fun coming up with names for him, but I'm not about to let my fun risk this game. Sorry, SinSwagilyYours.

VOTE: Swagilicious

Also, Riddleton's defense to his lack of defense to me pretty much instantly made me think him to be town. I think I may have just been overly paranoid with his interaction with Marty McSwag.

Also also, I will be gone tomorrow. Expect my return on Sunday.

I agree with you we probably dont want to lynch elle, but I think it is because of the wagon on her.

[Whatisswag]

Hey, NJAC, are you scum?

I dont really understand the point of this question.

[Whatisswag]

A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle. His mentions of Elle before his recent wall are minimal and could easily be faked by scum.

If not, I'd like you to at least look over Elle and tell me what you think of her play thus far.

219 and 236 look reasonable, but there isn't really enough said to get a full read.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

@Elle, I had a line of questioning for you, but I feel like the response wouldn't be informative.
Basically, it seemed to me like:

What changed between then and now?

My read, obviously.

Was implying that you were scumreading him rather than trying to sort him, but the followup in response to me seemed more geared towards you saying that you were trying to sort him again. Realized on reflection that asking you about it wouldn't really yield anything productive because "oh I was just saying that I wasn't townreading him and am now nullreading him" was likely to be your response regardless of what your alignment is.

Let's go somewhere else from here. What do you make of Kaboose's softpush on you?

Oh good someone brings it up for me!

What did you think of the post of hers I quoted? I don't know what to make of it but it seemed weird.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

I see the scum-motivation in trying to prod people for their reads on you so you can adjust your play accordingly, however, I've seen some townplayers do stuff like this in the last few games I've been in, so I'm more inclined to nullread this particular post.

I think I'm more troubled by how safe her play up until her push on Swag has felt, but I admit this is more of a tone argument on my part and I won't be surprised if nobody will listen to me on this point alone.

I guess it would be too obvious for a scum member to be like "If I said this, or since I said that, do you find it scummy or townie" but I just don't see why a town person who is scum hunting would make this a worry. Like do I worry that someone may read me as scum based on me trying to help solve the game? Sure, but I'm not going to be worried enough to stop what I'm doing to ask for confirmation before I proceed. Could you imagine if that's how we played?

Am I alone in my thought that scum are more likely to care about what they look like than a town person? Especially since there aren't any cops or doctors who need to alter their play a bit to make it to day 2.

I'm scum reading Dave, Elle, and still Corpses.

I will say though, maybe it's just me, but this game still seems to be suffering from a bit of holiday hangover. We need some more interactions in here to get people talking and slipping.

Grib! I'm starting at the top of the VC. Do you still find awesomeusername scummy and deserving of your vote? I'll research the answer myself, but if you get a chance let's talk about him. We have a bit of a connection, you're voting awesome, awesome is voting me. I think you also told me I was stupid once or twice in this game. I don't like you for that. Oh and I haven't forgot, I'm going to get to your Green Crayons inquiry as well.

There are three major mentions of Elle before his recent wall. The first is him calling Elle scummy for something that is completely null. The second is Kaboose excitedly asking Cheetory about his Elle suspicion eager to show that he had Elle as a scumread. The third is an elaboration of his scumread which is okay and fairly null.

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum. He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads. He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle? Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

Cheetory misunderstood my initial arguments even though I explained them to him several times. I cannot believe that Kaboose so miraculously understood all of them and see them as persuasive. My case against Elle is one that is unlikely to appeal to the masses. Cheetory's reactions and calling it nitpicking confirms my thoughts there. I think it would be moderately difficult for an objective outsider to break down what I found scummy about Elle. Kaboose's understanding here is alarming.

As for who to lynch, I feel Kaboose is on balance scummier than Elle. I will switch back if Elle is the lynch that is viable but I want everyone in this game to read Kaboose's wall. And anyone that is reading Kaboose as town should explain why. He is very clearly scum.

VOTE: Kaboose

Then why Kaboose instead of elle if you mentioned that it could be bussing since both are scum from your point?

[Whatisswag]

I recommend we lynch awesomeusername.

[Whatisswag]

@elle:

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

So, by your argument, because you are going to flip town, Ranger is going to look less suspicious and be cleared?

Ha! Nice observation.

[Whatisswag]

I've wanted to vote Elle to L-1, and I still don't think it's a bad idea, but her reads were pretty close to mine scum wise. Only difference is I'm town reading LR. Elle clearly isn't right now. Which makes me concerned too that maybe my read is wrong. That coupled with the fact that her wagon has 2 of my other scum reads on it is keeping me from voting.

Luckily we still have 10 days I think to figure something out.

Whatisswag, what is your reason for wanting Awesome lynched? Green Crayons pointed out that you've only brought him up 1 time, and I'm about to go double check that. I'd still like to know if you have a new reason or not for that?

haha, no. I just dont FEEL like elle is the right choice. and somehow I am focusing on those with who lurk a bit. If awesome/dave is lynched, I would be quite happy. For others, I would be like "okay..."

[Whatisswag]

Cheet is town. Green Crayons is town.

On an unrelated note, awesome has been not really wanting to jump a wagon (like me, coincidentally. I treat this as scummy even though I do it.).

[Whatisswag]

Only if I was a gladiator, I would challenge people to death cause it is getting quite boring here. I find that I actually like people to scum read me for the lolz.

[Whatisswag]

Just saying why I think Cheet is town.

Sup. I am here to dramatically flop around as a replacement.

Taking middle ground gives null.

The way I scum hunt is relating the person I see to myself (another way of saying: I dont scum hunt by logic, I scum hunt by gut).

Something about the way that you're adding together what you see as scumtells and towntells to get nullreads while also saying that you scumhunt using gut feels off. I think it's that using generic towntells/scumtells and adding them together feels anything but gutbased. I might be getting caught up in semantics, so please try to elaborate on this so I can avoid being an idiot and getting caught up in a dumb argument about nothing here.

@Riddleton

, I did a lazy metadive on Swag. In his last scumgame he used a lot of setup speculation/theorycrafting early on and in his last towngame he didn't. Does that influence how strongly you're townreading his early posts this game considering how much of it is theorycrafting-ish?

I don't want to vote for any of them. The points raised against elle and Kaboose are meh.

What do you think of the points on whatisswag? I feel like you've danced around talking about him assuming I didn't just miss something in my readback.

@Green

, earlier on why were you voting Riddle over Grib, Corpses or elle? What were you hoping to get out of that single line of questioning that made him worth voting for? Also, what do you make of awesome's simultaneous townread/inability to read you and the players that are ramping up pressure on him for it?

So it looks like Corpses is taking action to look like he's advocating for a protown strategy, when really he's just advocating for basic game play.

Not really seeing why this is clearly scum-motivated and not just a bad play on Corpse's part.

This post is ok.

I guess more importantly, why did Hannibal not get a criticism in any of your posts?

I like this line of questioning more than the role-trap angle people are pushing on Corpses. Why isn't this a part of your reasoning in your vote for Corpse, Crayon?

Ok.

Do you not think people should come under pressure for bad play? How do you expect the game to ever advance? Even if it is just bad play, it was a play that could hurt our most powerful win condition.

The point isn't whether bad play should be questioned. The point is that bad play=/=scummy play. I don't see why Corpse would rolefish in such an obvious way if his intent was solely to get masonslips. If anything, I would think that if he is scum, that he was merely trying to seem like he was acting protown trying to pitch ideas on what to be doing right now. Either way, no matter what his alignment is I still think it was just bad play on his part.

Good idea. Town idea.

I can follow the angle of trying to pressure Corpse into answering various questions on him, I can't follow the angle of lynching him solely on the merit of a sketchy accusation of him rolefishing that feels like a stretch.

My single question to him wasn't sustaining anything, as it was a bad question and I wasn't expecting anything from it.

Why not vote someone who you said was pinging you as slightly scummy?

I don't know if Corpses's mason talk is "clearly" scum motivated, but I think it's more likely to come from scum trying to get townie points when discussing game setup.

Makes more sense to me now that I've more fully absorbed your train of thought in #189. Though, why were you okay with sheeping Kaboose's reasoning before though if you later disagreed with it?

Remind me what those points are?

I kind of got a little bit jumbled with the timeline of what was going on because I got a little too focused on Swag during my readthrough, so I guess a better question is why did you comment on elle/Kaboose and not on Riddleton who had three votes at the time in the quote I posted before?

@Grib

, when did you have a townread on Riddle and why?

Because I forgot I caught Corpse's failure to address Hannibal when I made my vote post.

Where does this reasoning rank in comparison to the rest of your reasons for voting for Corpse?

Ok.

@Riddleton

, I did a lazy metadive on Swag. In his last scumgame he used a lot of setup speculation/theorycrafting early on and in his last towngame he didn't. Does that influence how strongly you're townreading his early posts this game considering how much of it is theorycrafting-ish?

Don't you ignore me you jerk.

Ok.

I don't know to who you are referring that was pinging me as slightly scummy?

Poorly phrased on my part. Why did you keep your vote on Riddle while saying you were slightly scumreading other people? Too lazy to pull up quotes right now but I know you said other scumreads in between your votechange.

even more so when they accuse me of lying when I'm not

I mean, you know the game you're playing right? Occasionally people are going to accuse you of lying because, dare I say, you may in fact be lying if you're mafia.
Also, try to keep things civil please. Not going to townread anger because I've seen plenty of people abuse that towntell as scum [myself included].

Good.

Scum also like to bring up negative association logic early to show town they're not connected to their partners.

Who do you think Swag would be trying to distance himself from in this case?

Have you caught up to the whole game? How did you choose the (roughly 6) people you've interacted with or focused on so far?

I kind of want to reread again because my brain went kind of numb trying to read a lot of the poem interactions around page 4-5 or something, but I otherwise feel relatively comfortable saying I'm caught up. I chose recent interactions because I felt those people would be most likely to be here and I wanted direct interactions to try and sort people and I chose things that stood out to me as weird.

@Swag

, what separates SJAC and davesaz in terms of content posted thus far? Also, what're your thoughts on elle?

VOTE: elle
Her vote in #163 feels reactionary and the followup ten minutes later strikes me as trying to throw additional reasoning to seem proactive. Also feel like she's saying a decent amount without leaving much of an impression. Stances seem pretty safe overall. Have some other weak reasons for suspecting her, but don't really know if they make sense and want to mull them over atm.

This is nice. He also keeps his scum reads and dont say them until he is absolutely sure, which is what I do.




Argh this is tiring, just going to skip some posts by cheet which has not much interest.

@Elle, I had a line of questioning for you, but I feel like the response wouldn't be informative.
Basically, it seemed to me like:

What changed between then and now?

My read, obviously.

Was implying that you were scumreading him rather than trying to sort him, but the followup in response to me seemed more geared towards you saying that you were trying to sort him again. Realized on reflection that asking you about it wouldn't really yield anything productive because "oh I was just saying that I wasn't townreading him and am now nullreading him" was likely to be your response regardless of what your alignment is.

Let's go somewhere else from here. What do you make of Kaboose's softpush on you?

it is town to put someone you think is scummy at the focus (well, I just dont put people into focus as scum). So this is town too.

The next few posts are the same focus on elle, so I will skip them.

As for my read on Kaboose, I'm leaning town on him at the moment because he seems to have this.. aura of confidence about pushing people and isn't really afraid at all to defend it. Could be reading too much into what may be playstyle, but he also doesn't strike me as scummy as a whole and hasn't said anything that I've found particularly suspect.

And he remember others too.

Cheetory

, I meta'd Swag myself and I disagree with your conclusions on his playstyle. I'll post more later on, I'm eating now

O riddle why do you hide from me so?

Who's alt are you, Lone Ranger?

Why doth thou ask questions to which LR will likely not answer?

Town. once he finishes building his case, he move on to his second scum read, this guy has clear objectives in mind.

LR's switch to Kaboose is.. interesting. I want to think that it's too bold for her to possibly be jumping around like this as scum unless she's trying to do something very intentionally. It would be a lot easier to sit on her elle vote and push the wagon as scum, so unless she's scummates with someone involved here, I want to say she's probably town? I kind of think her weirdness is probably town weirdness anyways.

This has nothing to do with Cheet. perhaps LR wanted to appear less scummy when a Vote Count Analysis is done.

Boop.

Leantown

:
Grib
Lone Ranger
Kaboose
Swag

Null

:
Green Crayons
ILF
NJAC
Dave
Riddle

Leanscum

:
Corpses
awesome
elle

Bitchassbitch

:
Cheetory6

It's in order too.

This is ok.

Another one that gives me odd feels is his 502, where he mentions Riddle's absence in a positive light, corpses absence in a negative light, and then doesn't at all mention davesaz's absence. But I can't really pinpoint exactly what bothers me about it, just that it feels like selectively calling people out differently for doing the same thing, if that makes sense.

Corpse left in the middle of being the main wagon and it annoyed me that he didn't replace because it could have stalled the game really hard. If he's town, that was a shitty thing to do. If he's scum, then that's an annoying derail.
I've played with Riddle before and I have no idea where he stands on things right now. I consider myself closer to him than I do to dave or Math/whoever his other head is.
Have never played with dave before and I relatively know where he stands right now.
Hence differences in how I'm responding to each of them not being here.

Your GC read feels similarly to my Cheetory read, insofar as it's hard to point out specifics. With a lot of the things he posts, I get the feeling that they're just set up as traps - like his 399 to you or the way he phrases his 518 to me.

I used to just hardpush people when I wanted reads. I'm relatively new to mafiascum and have only recently gotten into the idea of sorting people. If my questioning is forceful, it's because I'm leaning scum on someone. Was leaning scum on LR when I started questioning her. I strongly think you're scum right now and I don't see why you would be coming from where you are right now from a townPOV. I'd love to hear why I'm wrong on this, but nothing you've hinted at so far in your last few responses to me feels like it's coming from anywhere legitimate.

Are you going to actually question me now or are you just going to pitch something else to everyone else in the game again?

This is consistent with his reads

Wow, I have been sniped 8 times.

[Whatisswag]

There's a difference between tunneling and an informed perspective, yes.

Citing that fact as a truism doesn't really address the situation here. Particularly when people have criticized your tunnel of elle as a potential manifestation of your informed perspective. (There's no one, true Scotsman of how an informed perspective plays out.)

You've set up both awesome ("AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there." in Post 419) and Kaboose ("A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle." Post 472) as being potential elle-scum buddies.


Thanks for your response.

Yeah. Good job noticing. Ok LR just got boosted a few levels above other people on my reads list.

[Whatisswag]

Town reads list. And I notice GC has been focusing a lot on elle recently.

[Whatisswag]

520 - Swag if you could take a minute, let's have a conversation.

So I saw in posts:
462
477
503
551
Are the only times I see you mention awesome.

In 462 you place a vote on him and announce it won't go anywhere else.

Yes

In 477 you state that he probably won't be lynched today.

Yes

Then in 503 you suggest we lynch him.

Yes

Finally in 551 you apparently explain he's scummy for doing something you do as well.

Yes

You didn't really answer me about Awesome in 550 while responding to the post of mine that I asked about it. So could you please help me understand why you want someone lynched but you're not trying to convince anyone to do it?

There are a few people who showed their reads. awesome does not seem like a lynch choice. And the rest of the people dont say anything, which I take as not supporting. Also, awesome is just weird.

What was the "scum team analysis" you mentioned in 462?

Also since you admit he's unlikely to be lynched, would you be okay compromising on it or is he really the only person you're going to vote on D1?

I dont know, but if elle gets to L-1 then I am willing to hammer.

[Whatisswag]

Ok if we look at elle's wagon, the votes are on posts

102
246
341
370
407.

elle's wagon was quite slow initially but was fast in the end (1 vote within ~30 posts). So I think that there is at least one scum on the wagon.

[Whatisswag]

Sure it is, compared to 100 posts previously.

[Whatisswag]

dave probably, for the L-2 vote and also because I town read Cheet and Lone ranger and probably you too.

[Whatisswag]

I dont know, but if elle gets to L-1 then I am willing to hammer.

Do you think she's scum?

The town side of null.

[Whatisswag]

In the context of a game of mafia, it isn't fast. Fast would be within one or two pages.

Who do you think is scum on elle's wagon?

dave probably, for the L-2 vote and also because I town read Cheet and Lone ranger and probably you too.

What if corpses is scum? Would that scenario change your perspective on the wagon?

corpses vote is a starting vote, I dont really count starting votes.

[Whatisswag]

corpses vote is a starting vote, I dont really count starting votes.

Why?

I dont find starting votes to be a good part of analysis because any kind of people makes starting votes (just look at the number of people who have 1 vote on them.)

[Whatisswag]

So if Corpse was scum, it wouldn't affect your perspective on the rest of the wagon?

Just realized dave asked this exact question q.q
Let me rephrase so it isn't the same answer:
If Corpse flipped scum, you seriously wouldn't think anyone on the wagon is less likely to be scum?

I dont know about that. I think it is as likely to have 1 scum and as 2 scum

[Whatisswag]

I'm really sorry everyone, but I just don't have time for this. I know replacements suck, so I apologize.

@Mod: Please replace me.

replacements are good.

[Whatisswag]

Wait a minute, I just saw something outside of this thread. dave is town too.

[Whatisswag]

Wait a minute, I just saw something outside of this thread. dave is town too.

dave is conf town to me. I will be willing to be lynched instead of letting dave be lynched.

[Whatisswag]

You guys have no fucking idea what I saw outside of this thread that makes dave town. Anyway, he is town. dave, whoever you want to be lynched, I will follow your decision.

VOTE: elle

As long as I dont quote from outside the thread, I am fine. I just went back to look at the rules again.

[Whatisswag]

By the way, if you guys are wondering, it was a post dave made 4 months ago.

[Whatisswag]

Btw, MASONS DONT RECRUIT TONIGHT. For obvious reasons.

[Whatisswag]

Ok, I just spent like a lot of time doing scum team analysis.

My conclusion is that THERE ARE NO POSSIBLE SCUM TRIPLES in the players: GC, Cheet, dave, Grib, LR, elle, Kaboose.

There are quite a number of scum pairs though (I will not reveal them because I dont want to reveal the possible masons).

UNVOTE: elle

I WILL BE WAITING FOR YOU GUYS to wagon one of the lurkers (which is one of the people not in the above pile).

[Whatisswag]

Actually screw it, NJAC is the first name I see who is not going to get replaced.

VOTE: NJAC

[Whatisswag]

elle, the more you lurk, the less I care about lynching elsewhere.

lol, I love that this comes right after one of my posts. Srsly.

Who is even left for you scumread, after you've cleared 7 or so players from your lynchpool?

So with confirms, towns and this, that's me not wanting to vote for:

Kaboose. NJAC. davesaz. Grib. GC. awesomeusername. and now LR.

So that leaves:
Cheetory. ILF. Corpses. swag. and Riddleton.

I really only quoted this to get your 543, but why do you not want to vote NJAC?
---

By the way, if you guys are wondering, it was a post dave made 4 months ago.

Is this whole thing something you can share? If you found something that clears him as town to you why aren't you sharing? Is that against the rules and I'm just too new to know? Or what's going on. Why are we supposed to just see this and think it's okay? Are you going to just tell me you don't care what I think about it? Please don't. You wouldn't have made these posts unless you wanted us to know what you think, so please tell me why I should care what you think.
---

Btw, MASONS DONT RECRUIT TONIGHT. For obvious reasons.

I'd imagine the only people looking to avoid the mason's recruiting would be scum.

Why should recruiting be done night one? The chances of scum hitting 3 masons rather than 2 masons is higher.

[Whatisswag]

VOTE: Riddleton

[Whatisswag]

Why not lets get rid of riddle's slot before it gets replaced?

[Whatisswag]

Five replacements, all at once. Amazing.

Which is why we should get rid (get riddle) of one of those slots before they gets replaced because 5 replacements are ...

[Whatisswag]

Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect~

I'll definitely catch up on this game tomorrow, but one thing which I'm not understanding is why WiS is pushing for the riddle lynch when 4 replacements are needed. He's trying to get us into night and most likely stay in night.

I don't like that, but based on a bit that I skimmed of ISO this doesn't feel like the scum-WiS i played in his first newbie game.

Correct!

[Whatisswag]

Of course, if riddle's slot is replaced, then I will unvote.

[Whatisswag]

Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect~

I'll definitely catch up on this game tomorrow, but one thing which I'm not understanding is why WiS is pushing for the riddle lynch when 4 replacements are needed. He's trying to get us into night and most likely stay in night.

I don't like that, but based on a bit that I skimmed of ISO this doesn't feel like the scum-WiS i played in his first newbie game.

Correct!

Of course, if riddle's slot is replaced, then I will unvote.

do you know how anti-town this is.

First you're pushing a lynch on someone who can not claim because they aren't here when they get to L-1 and you could possibly have a mason. (Not saying this is the case, but could happen). Secondly, there's 6 freaking days on the deadline clock. I haven't caught up and I'd like to hear what replacements have to offer. pushing a lynch when we still need slots replaced is scummy as hell, even though I don't think you're scum. I'd like you to stop so I can first catch up and want to hear others thoughts.

Whatever

[Whatisswag]

I have nothing to add at this point until the inactives are replaced and I hear from the replacements in a way that will help me get reads on them.

The only thing I really want to comment on is how no one seems to have any issue with Green Crayons's analysis. Too many look at his walls, nod their heads in agreement and say "good point, I didn't notice that!" or similar things. It is lame as hell and moderately annoying. GC's analysis is shallow, surface level, and looks fake. Scum are perfectly capable of writing walls and posting comments and the easy townreads there suck. Unlike my previous concern about people townreading Cheetory, this one is more of I feel that GC is scum coasting by on surface level analysis that a whole bunch of town are buying hook, line, and sinker. What of GC's posts have felt town? Where has GC at any point felt genuine and like he was trying to solve the game? His analysis is skin-deep and lame as hell. And that's who I think people should look into.

Elle, if you are town, don't give up. Your lynch is far from a foregone conclusion. Who knows what the thoughts and opinions of the people replacing in are going to be? I sympathize with your feeling of being frustrated at trying to drive the game forward only to picked apart and its probably one of the reasons that all things being equal, I'd lynch someone who is contributing less.

At least Green Crayons is doing more things than those inactives. That is enough.

[Whatisswag]

And also, I think LR is more scummy than elle.

[Whatisswag]

The association between LR and other players seem unnatural to me. It seems like "I have a plan on how I should connect people to me"

[Whatisswag]

I revised my scum team analysis and the only possible scum team I can find among the people with 37+ posts is the team {Grib, elle, Lone Ranger}

[Whatisswag]

Give me a read on elle with reasoning, when you get the time. I know you were asked this recently:
She has almost 30 posts. Surely there's something in there that makes you think she's leaning town or scum?

Null leaning scum. At the point in time of my previous answer, she was null-town. Since then the only things she has posted have been to take my side in my push on swag. She even asked if I thought her defending me was town or scum. This doesn't seem very town to me, it's like she wanted to know if it was safe to continue or not.

1) It was never

your

push on swag. Telling someone to 'fuck off' isn't exactly a push on them.

2) Wanting to see if you'd actually commit to a read vs fence-sitting isn't town?

Eh. I'm too impatient. I don't like this post, and there's something else I want to look into.

VOTE: elleheathen

Hi elle. Could I trouble you for your current reads on Kaboose, davesaz, and Green Crayons?

Without warning, Grib bounces on the wagon.

You are so scum it is funny. I could make a case on you based just on what you posted since I replaced in:

VOTE: I Love Fairies

Elle is my second choice. Riddleton, Cheetory, Davesaz, Corpses and maybe GreenCrayons are townreads.

Why are ILF and I scum?

What made ILF more scum than me - enough to start a new wagon on her instead of joining mine for an L-4?

Why are Riddleton and Corpses town?

Loaded question. Who gives a damn how many votes are on you or on ILF at this stage of the game? Deadline is more than two weeks away. If a need to compromise arises, it can be done. The way you frame this question is intended to make me look bad for voting someone with no votes on them as opposed to you. It also shows you giving off an air of "I don't care if you vote me."

Soooo 'RVS' and no reason whatsoever for other reads. Noted.

A pretty clear misrep. I called a post scummy. Never said anything about RVS. You correct this later but I'm not sold on it.

You assume I have no reasons because I don't give them. Have you never played with people who don't divulge reasons for their reads? Have you never had gut reads?

The "noted" at the end is the icing on the cake. It carries a tone of "I have proved my case" and attempts to manipulate bystander's view of our argument.

No reason to.

Yeah, I suppose not - if you're scum.

The posturing here... my god. Do I need to explain this?

Why did you not even look through the first few posts of elle? Are you sure there is nothing scummy?

[Whatisswag]

Malakittens is town. Now to wait for the other replacements (who hopefully will also make their alignments apparent).

I dont see you using logic here for your read so I will assume you use gut. If you use gut, how are you so sure that their alignments would be "apparent"?

[Whatisswag]

If you use gut, how are you so sure to yourself that someone is completely town? gut are often wrong, you know

[Whatisswag]

Hmm both Green and LR are good players, it is kinda hard to read them.

[Whatisswag]

Hmm, I saw this thing of arguing around the words some time ago: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6312573

[Whatisswag]

elle is our best choice, we dont have anything else because we might hit mason and there is no time to claim.

[Whatisswag]

VOTE: elleheathen

[Whatisswag]

Okay, I'm going to make a few comments on picking the third Mason. I think it should typically be someone active, hard to lynch, someone that you are reading reasonably as town. Me, Elle, and GC are good candidates for that. Especially me and GC as I think it would provide a lot of clarity to the town and help make sense of who to trust among the more active voices among the town.

I'm fairly sure GC will flip scum. His approach of a line of questioning followed by a vote seems premeditated. I don't know how he managed to flick away the previous suggestions that he be masoned. There is very little downside to Masoning immediately and also Masoning an active voice among the town.

Now for the lynch: the only concensus I can reasonably see forming is on one of the inactive players. I have no strong scumreads outside of GC at this point so there's no one I'd push for. Corpses and Riddleton are the ones in need of replacement so if we are going to compromise there, I'd vote either to help the lynch go through. I'll re-evaluate their posts tomorrow. I'm leaning corpses. I had them as town early partly because I was reading Elle as scum. Not a huge fan of their push from a town-Elle standpoint. So, that's who I'm voting unless Riddleton gets a lot more votes.

screw this post.

[Whatisswag]

And I kinda see a big change in Green's style these few pages. Like more initiative.

[Whatisswag]

There is a really weird interaction between NJAC and Grib, just like the interaction between elle and LR. If one turns out scum, I expect the other one to be scum too.

[Whatisswag]

Shit. i just forgot there are masons. But whatever.

[Whatisswag]

I dont read the thread 100% of all the time. When I get email notifications, I check and when I come back I forget.

[Whatisswag]

That escalated quickly while I was gone.

[Whatisswag]

Ok, Grib and NJAC probably not scum team

[Whatisswag]

vote NJAC.

[Whatisswag]

Just kidding, that was a fake hammer.

[Whatisswag]

Btw, dave is probably going to get killed tonight.

[Whatisswag]

And I have to say, the wagon was like WTF.

[Whatisswag]

Ah fuck. VOTE: NJAC

[Whatisswag]

If NJAC is scum, I will discuss this another time.

If NJAC is town,

I wonder if scum purposely moved the wagon off elle to NJAC. (If this is the case, all fingers will point at Kaboose)

I wonder which of the other lurkers are scum.

[Whatisswag]

@dave:

I skimmed your ISO and your biggest active lead as to who may be scum appears to be "maybe someone who is lurking."

How is this not a scum copout? VOTE: dave

Screw off.

[Whatisswag]

NJAC

- 7 - Kaboose,

Cheetory6

, Green Crayons, Lone Ranger, Grib, davesaz, Whatisswag - (L-0) (LYNCH!)

There's

at least

two scum there.

I disagree. I would think that the lurkers pile has more scum. usually in my town games, I get at least some number of scum reads. This game, I have none so far (surprisingly). Either someone is super good at being scum or the lurking people...

[Whatisswag]

Grib's behavior is quite like a town I would say because when someone like a mason gets killed, I will have a stronger urge of talking in the game. (Unless he is just scum excited at killing a mason)

[Whatisswag]

And hi titus.

[Whatisswag]

Why is Cheetory killed? Is it possible because elle is scum?

[Whatisswag]

There may be. There are 11 players left in the game and three scum. You've narrowed down the pool to six players and then claimed that there are at least two scum in there. First off, what's the point?

What the point of sharing my thoughts? Really?
Maybe to share my thinking.
Maybe to see how people react to my thinking.
Maybe to see who agrees/disagrees and why or why not.

Secondly, your number is arbitrary - NJAC was a deadline lurker lynch that no one opposed.

Exactly the type of lynch scum loves. Deadline lynches with no need for reasoning.

And true, I wouldn't have voted it but I wasn't opposed to it, either - because NJAC's constant prod dodging was irritating. Doesn't mean that I don't think scum wouldn't have taken advantage of it.

Why were you not on it?

[Whatisswag]

The only time which Cheetory was very significant was between LR and elle. Otherwise I dont see why Grib or Green Crayons are not good choices. Hmm LR and elle...

[Whatisswag]

Yes. I dont really understand why Elle's wagon disappeared. So I am inclined to think elle is scum.

[Whatisswag]

Uhh, first thing I want to say is that we have quite a bit of votes (and vote switches)

[Whatisswag]

My replies to specific parts of the posts were underlined.

I keep seeing things from Swag that are setting off a bell in my head as manufactured town things. As well as just things that don't add up. Here are some examples:

I think we should hypoclaim recruiting mason and who we will target n1

Shit. i just forgot there are masons. But whatever.

Second post in the game he's wanting to hypoclaim recruiting masons. Then one of his more recent posts he claims he forgot there were masons in the game. Now I know that's quite a gap, but he came in to the game with a plan of some sort or else why even bring up the hypoclaim? So how do you actually forget there are masons? Not to mention Swag was the one trying to direct the mason's recruiting as well before forgetting about them.

Well, sorry, if that is your problem.

There is a really weird interaction between NJAC and Grib, just like the interaction between elle and LR. If one turns out scum, I expect the other one to be scum too.

Ok, Grib and NJAC probably not scum team

So here he says Grib and NJAC are most likely a team if one flips scum. Then goes back and says they're probably not a team. So I guess the question now is what Swag thinks of Grib? I think Grib is town. But NJAC flipped town, and Swag thought they weren't a team, so it makes me wonder if he thinks Grib is scum? So I guess Swag I'm asking what your read on Grib is now that you have the information you have on NJAC?

Grib does not change, I already believed that NJAC and Grib were not both scum, so that NJAC flip tells me nothing about Grib. He stays the same.

Btw, dave is probably going to get killed tonight.

Why would you guess at this? Like this is what seems like the manufactured town slip. A scenario that popped in my head was Swag saying this, and then NKing someone else to try and show us he has no clue who is dying at night. That was the only thing I saw when I read this was scum trying to misdirect, suggesting one death so that when another happened you've got "proof" you might not be scum or something.

I very obviously hard defended dave like some time long ago. I would rather get lynched if you all can believe dave is town

If NJAC is scum, I will discuss this another time.

If NJAC is town,

I wonder if scum purposely moved the wagon off elle to NJAC. (If this is the case, all fingers will point at Kaboose)

I wonder which of the other lurkers are scum.

Then this post threw me a bit too. Now I'm a realistic thinker, and from experience I've learned that very few times the D1 lynch doesn't hit a town member. So I can understand there's still something left to figure out here even after the hammer. But I love how he casually points to me if NJAC flipped town. There was no one under the gun as far as "If NJAC flips town, I bet such and such and such and such are partners!" Now earlier there was the Grib and NJAC comment, but he fell off that and declared them probably not a team in between that comment and the flip. However, he goes and tells us that if NJAC flips town all fingers point at me! This just looks to me like someone who knew how the flip was going. Like a slight slip not to call out possible partners because there were none, but to go ahead and lay some bait for the next lynch.

The NJAC wagon was kind of random. And you are the one who started it. You were not on elle's wagon either. Makes me think you shifted the wagon to NJAC.

[Whatisswag]

@Heartless:

ok gc, why are you voting dave?

I ISO'd my four suspicions from yesterday (elle, dave, Ranger, Fairies/Picard), and picked the one that bothered me the most.

off dave.

[Whatisswag]

@dave:

Brain Edit: Wait, she said she wasn't recruited, which in this game is a VT claim. How is it town to claim VT right at the top of day 1? It just makes scum's job easier.

I'm not following what you are saying.

It is a VT claim to say you're not recruited. VT claims in a mason game narrow down the range of players who might be mason, and scum need to identify masons to eliminate them before LYLO (assuming the game gets that far). There is no good town motivation to claim, especially this early in the day.

There are scum reasons for doing it, in particular to fish for mason reactions like "how do you know anyone was recruited". Masons should keep their mouths shut BTW.

BS. Masons know not to say anything.

What I'm pointing out with it is that I think they would have recruited between:

Me. LR. GC. Grib. davesaz.

Since I wasn't, that leaves the other 4. And I'm pretty damn sure scum is in there.

I want scum to know I wasn't recruited. Because it increases the likelihood that they WERE.

And I get a warm feeling inside when I imagine them worrying about it, wondering when it'll come out, waiting, waiting.

No, just no. Stupid. You need a vote.

VOTE: elleheathen

[Whatisswag]

Actually, elle has done some pretty town things that no one did. So now everything cancels out.

UNVOTE: elle

[Whatisswag]

@Grib why would scum not just lurk it out? I am not seeing the Elle push at all.

Why would the entire scumteam be lurking?

I would image there are active scum. My point is, why wouldn't ellescum lurk out her wagon? What would she gain by her behavior? The ideal play there is to lurk while her buddies stir up drama.

At least I found someone who thinks there are a high number of lurking scum. (Which happens to be between 1 and 3, so not THAT high after all)

[Whatisswag]

@Grib why would scum not just lurk it out? I am not seeing the Elle push at all.

Why would the entire scumteam be lurking?

I would image there are active scum. My point is, why wouldn't ellescum lurk out her wagon? What would she gain by her behavior? The ideal play there is to lurk while her buddies stir up drama.

At least I found someone who thinks there are a high number of lurking scum. (Which happens to be between 1 and 3, so not THAT high after all)

WAIT a minute, does that not mean you are like pointing at yourself?

[Whatisswag]

@Swag, What really townie things did Elle do?

Your last series of posts look like scum catch up. People are talking about Elle scum, I'll throw in a vote bc her reads suck. Shit, wagon has resistance. Better unvote.

Your last post is ridiculous. No one points the finger at themselves.

Considering the fact you've allegedly read, what are your reads?


@Dave, My scumgame is much better than that. Ask Grib (aka Snowvon). I scumhunt by supposing people take optimal actions based on what they know. Elle's play is suboptimal for scum there and I was explaining that to Grib.

elle's towny behaviour would be mentioned later when I have time.

My second strongest town read died in the night.

So now it is this:
davesaz- confirm town, whoever is targetting dave screw off.
Heartless- towny, both parts of the hydra display town behaviour even though their playstyles can be different.
Green crayons- a little bit town, his walls and his slightly aggressive behaviour is town. But the fact that he switches his playstyle when LR targets him jumps out to me
Lone ranger- a little bit town, this is gut
Titus- a little bit town, this is gut
elle- null
Grib- null, I cannot read this guy even though I played with him before.
Mala- a little bit scum, partially because both the original dude and the replacement is lurking, partially because awesome did not really do much in terms of giving reads.
Kaboose- a little bit scum. He seem somewhat different when I played with him, in a scummy way.
I cannot remember any other people.

[Whatisswag]

I would probably cross out swag from it too because I feel like if he were scum, he'd have just waited for mala to hammer it.

This is town observation.

Also HI THX FOR REPLACING HI

Now we just need a Riddle replacement and I'll be a happy camper.

Excitedness is pointing towards the town direction too.

There are 11 players left in the game and three scum.

and three scum.

and three scum.

Orly?

And this.

There may be. There are 11 players left in the game and three scum. You've narrowed down the pool to six players and then claimed that there are at least two scum in there. First off, what's the point?

What the point of sharing my thoughts? Really?
Maybe to share my thinking.
Maybe to see how people react to my thinking.
Maybe to see who agrees/disagrees and why or why not.

Secondly, your number is arbitrary - NJAC was a deadline lurker lynch that no one opposed.

Exactly the type of lynch scum loves. Deadline lynches with no need for reasoning.

And true, I wouldn't have voted it but I wasn't opposed to it, either - because NJAC's constant prod dodging was irritating. Doesn't mean that I don't think scum wouldn't have taken advantage of it.

Why were you not on it?

NJAC. First to confirm. 2/4, btw.

The fact that she still remembers this should earn her a thumbs up.

I take the opposite view of elle.

As scum would know NJAC would flip town, it would benefit scum not to be on the lynch wagon. Why take the "easy lynch" bait when town could do it for them?

If you think that there were enough town actually present for that to even happen. I don't.

Riddle wasn't here.
Corpses wasn't here.
NJAC wasn't voting himself.
I wasn't voting NJAC.

All town from my POV.

So that'd still be 7/9, and would still guarantee that at least one scum had to be on it.

And as I've said before, that's exactly the type of lynch scum loves/doesn't care about being apart of. Because it's very difficult to use any kind of VCA on a 'deadline lurker lynch'.

I dont think scum would be this careful.

[Whatisswag]

And I believed I have mentioned quite a few times I think scum shifted the wagon from elle to NJAC. The reason why elle is still null is because I have nothing to show that it is true.

[Whatisswag]

Ok I just solved the game using wagon analysis, mason analysis and scum analysis.

Kaboose, Green Crayons and

Lone ranger is town, cptpicard is town, dave is town, I am town, Grib is town, Heartless is town

Mala, titus, elle are the possible left candidates for the final scum.

So I believe it is Kaboose, Green Crayons and elle.

VOTE: Kaboose

it was quite nice playing in this game.

[Whatisswag]

I bet my lynch on the fact that there is at least one scum within Kaboose and Green.

[Whatisswag]

Actually it should be kaboose, green crayons and mala. I think that is kind of more suitable.

[Whatisswag]

I am happy with kaboose being lynched on this page.

[Whatisswag]

@Heartless:

why is Kaboose scum?

^^^^^^also, there's no follow up to this^^^^^^^

tth bothered to give him the write up and he didn't say shit and opted to go for the red herring conversation elle was having about the last second wagon, which more has to do w/ scumhunting philosophy anyway not alignment

See? told you they are scum team.

[Whatisswag]

How do you get people to listen to you? by suiciding and showing that you are town and hope people dont think you are as stupid as you are or what?

[Whatisswag]

Seriously, there cannot be a more appropriate scum team in the game other than this pair. From Green's posts first,

@awesome:

why the Kaboose vote, based on a pretty flip justification ("You're welcome for the vote. Now talk to me.")?

Your Kaboose vote/justification is particularly incongruous with the remainder of your Post 155, in which you undertake a more thorough analysis of players.

That was an early defend

UNVOTE: Riddle

VOTE: Corpses

1. What Kaboose said regarding setup spec.
2. Rereading his ISO, I still don't like how he interacted with swag.
3. I know at least 1/2 of his hyrda is around, but he's gone quiet.

Supports Kaboose

@Cheetory:

My single question to him wasn't sustaining anything, as it was a bad question and I wasn't expecting anything from it.

Why not vote someone who you said was pinging you as slightly scummy?

I don't know to who you are referring that was pinging me as slightly scummy?

I don't know if Corpses's mason talk is "clearly" scum motivated, but I think it's more likely to come from scum trying to get townie points when discussing game setup.

Makes more sense to me now that I've more fully absorbed your train of thought in #189. Though, why were you okay with sheeping Kaboose's reasoning before though if you later disagreed with it?

Kaboose's post prompted me to review Corpses's ISO, and the review of Corpses's ISO is what prompted me to vote him. I connected Kaboose to my vote based on that linear sequence of events. But upon further scrutinizing Kaboose's post after being prompted by Grib, I saw that there was perhaps some difference between what made Corpses suspicious to Kaboose and me.

This. Why did Green mention Kaboose's name so many times when Green could have just used "he"? They have a special interaction.

Finished the reread.

1. I feel less suspicious about Corpses's interaction with swag after my reread.

2. Grib's posting looks like solid town. He's catching things and articulating ideas that I am having upon reading the thread. Suggests that we're approaching the game from the same alignment mindset.

3. To a lesser extent, I get town vibes from awesome's and Kaboose's postings. Fairies is still a lean town read (don't know if I ever made that explicit from my earlier review of her play).

4. Cheetory's posts come from a much more mechanical stand point (if that makes any sense, I'm not sure it does; but it's the best way I can describe the "voice" of his posts), making it harder to discern alignment. Null read at the moment.

5. NJAC is completely MIA. Potential lurkerscum.

6. Riddle's interest in the game has dwindled down to inquiring as to an alt's main account. Helpful.

7. I don't like the elle/dave/swag interaction. There's something about each player in the context of this three person back and forth that strikes me as suspicious. Will go into more detail later after I tease out my thoughts a bit more.

8. I don't like the elle/Ranger interaction. There's something about each player in the context of this two person back and forth that strikes me as suspicious. Will go into more detail later after I tease out my thoughts a bit more.

Defends Kab

Regarding the dave/swag/elle conversation.

A.

dave:

the biggest thing that bothered me is his reasons justifying his swag vote. Grib hit all the right points in Post 312, and Kaboose summarizes my concern about dave's "disarming the opposition" tactic of preemptively declaring his vote a not-OMGUS in Post 323. The swag push looks manufactured, and the not-OMGUS declaration looks defensive.

B.

swag:

I don't like his push on dave, as the basis of the suspicion (dave was only asking meaningless questions) was too premature for the state of the game. Ultimately, though, his thought process and reasoning looks like it comes from town, even if it appears scattered at times.

C.

elle:

I'll admit that I didn't personally have a put-into-words suspicion about elle when reading her posts; it was all a general feeling of "this doesn't sound right." (Contrast this with my suspicions about dave, where Grib and Kaboose simply vocalized my already-formed suspicions.) Of the players who vocalized particular suspicions about elle, I think that (1) Cheetory's "playing it safe" suspicion (originally stated in Post 246), and (2) Kaboose's problem with elle's inquiry to dave about elle's play (Post 323 and Post 339) are the most persuasive.

Regarding this second suspicion, I don't think this is an isolated incident. I noticed that she had previously asked Corpses about her play in a similar manner (Post 118 and Post 235). Well, maybe not a similar manner, but it certainly seems to come from the same mindset: "let me figure out what this player thinks about me and try to turn it to town."

CONCLUSION

: swag still looks town, even if a bit all over the place. dave and elle look more suspicious. Kaboose looks more town.

The tone in his post sounds like he wants to say Kaboose is very very town. But his conclusion at the end just says: "looks more town". This is distancing himself from kab.

Some thoughts on these final few pages.

1. elle's Post 428 reads list is strikingly similar to how I am reading the game. I would only switch awesome (to lean town) and Kaboose (to town), put swag as town instead of lean scum, and put elle as a scum candidate. Despite those differences, there's a lot of overlap in how elle and I are understanding the game.

My takeaway from our apparently shared perspective is this: This reads list doesn't undercut my problems with elle's play, nor does it outweigh those problems. If elle does flip town, however, I will come back to this reads list as support of our (mostly) mutual understanding of other players.


2.

@NJAC:

Really, with Post 445 and Post 446?


3.

@Ranger:

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum.

He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads.

He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle?

Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

The bolded portions of your Kaboose suspicions describe your own play pretty spot on. Thoughts?

Defend Kab

There's a difference between tunneling and an informed perspective, yes.

Citing that fact as a truism doesn't really address the situation here. Particularly when people have criticized your tunnel of elle as a potential manifestation of your informed perspective. (There's no one, true Scotsman of how an informed perspective plays out.)

You've set up both awesome ("AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there." in Post 419) and Kaboose ("A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle." Post 472) as being potential elle-scum buddies.


Thanks for your response.

Defend Kab

@elle:

I keep remembering things that popped into mind last night, so excuse the multiple posts directed at you.

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

Will you please expand on the bolded a bit more? Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

In case you missed this:

@elle:

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

So, by your argument, because you are going to flip town, Ranger is going to look less suspicious and be cleared?

Less suspicious, no.

Cleared of the association

, yes.

Bolded.

That's nice.

It doesn't answer my question.

Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

Why is he so interested in this question? obviously because of the kaboose elle interaction. See? he defends kab again.

While there's a lot of extraneous bits to this conversation, this is a point that strikes me with any interest:

Malakittens is town. Now to wait for the other replacements (who hopefully will

also make their alignments apparent

).

Disregarding the whole logic/gut nonsense, if you want my reasons for reading Malakittens as town, I can do that:

1. She seems engaged with the game in a way that I normally don't see from scum.
2. Her posting feels organic and not artificial and the way she interacted with the game and the reads she developed don't feel strategic or orchestrated.

You figured all that out from her in 5 posts?

That's a pretty quick time frame for a strong town read on Mala to develop - her alignment was "apparent" - particularly considering that Ranger had previously read the slot (awesome) as some degree of scum.


Also, this question:

Do the posts that Malakittens made make you feel she is scum?

This method transfers the topic from Kaboose to Green such that Kaboose is ignored.
Shifts the focus away from Ranger's especially quick solid Mala-town read and onto other players, forcing them to have the burden to disprove that Mala is town. Which is not how reads work.

Has Kaboose responded to TTH's case and I missed it?

Why do you care about something happening between Kaboose and TTH?

[Whatisswag]

Ok,

@EVERYONE

look at kaboose's ISO.

Where does he talk to Green?

Exactly, almost none.

I did that in my first scum game, not talking to my scum partner because of awkwardness (Mala can confirm). If they are not scum team, Why does Green Crayons not even bother him at all?

[Whatisswag]

Seriously, whoever DOESN'T vote Kaboose or Green Crayons now is almost confirmed third scum.

[Whatisswag]

That's a really bad case.

1. There's some blatantly horrible accusation-observations.

Spoiler: lol

"Why did Green mention Kaboose's name so many times when Green could have just used "he"? They have a special interaction."

Setting aside the wonky psychological breakdown BS you're trying to use, I didn't use pronouns to refer to either Kaboose or Corpses because I didn't want anyone to get confused about whether I was referring to Kaboose or Corpses by using the male pronoun. I do it frequently because pronouns are confusing. Clear Writing 101.

"Why do you care about something happening between Kaboose and TTH?"

I was prompted by Heartless to talk about Kaboose and TTH.

2. Then there's a baseless "defends Kab" tagline just because Kaboose gets mentioned in a post. That's not how defending works?

3. And then the rest of my posts show that I have developed a town read on Kaboose over the course of the game. Okay.

Whatever, this is not going to convince everyone.

[Whatisswag]

Try it, I am betting my lynch on it. If I am scum, then doing so would not hurt.

[Whatisswag]

Btw, just saying if Green gets to L-1 before Kaboose does, I will hammer.

[Whatisswag]

I mean it is so obvious. There is nothing to be town read of Green and Kaboose because they lack the town behavioural skills.

And also, Titus, you suck, even after 1 game with me, you still cannot read me.

[Whatisswag]

okay I

ROLECLAIM: Gladiator

I

Challenge: Kaboose

[Whatisswag]

U know what, I am getting tired of this.

Roleclaim: Mason

I targetted Kaboose last night and Kaboose was scum.

[Whatisswag]

Oh ho ho but Titus never mentioned that, Kaboose did, but wait I should thinking that Kaboose is scum in mentioning that, but wait hold on it's still valid, oh man my head is exploding.

The scum I saw in Kaboose's response was presenting all these various reasons why Swag may be fakeclaiming then diving at the least plausible one, that he just wants to out a mason, and then using a platitude "lynch all liars" to trumpet the crusade.

I believe lynching liars promotes good town play, which I've read quite a few times in the wiki page from this site.

I believe lynching scum promotes good town play

[Whatisswag]

I seriously dont understand why people are not voting Kaboose.

Case 1: I am mason, Kaboose is scum.

Case 2: I am scum, Kaboose is vt (or he would have claimed long ago).

Obviously it is better to try your chances at a possible vt instead of a possible mason.

[Whatisswag]

Btw,

@mod

Why is the deadline constant?

[Whatisswag]

@Swag:

why did Cheetory want to recruit Kaboose?

I refuse to answer.

[Whatisswag]

I think I should form a hydra with reinoe for faking a guilty as a vt.

[Whatisswag]

I decided to do it after seeing reinoe do it in some game.

[Whatisswag]

I decided to do it after seeing reinoe do it in some game.

Not ongoing game.

[Whatisswag]

Oh ho ho but Titus never mentioned that, Kaboose did, but wait I should thinking that Kaboose is scum in mentioning that, but wait hold on it's still valid, oh man my head is exploding.

The scum I saw in Kaboose's response was presenting all these various reasons why Swag may be fakeclaiming then diving at the least plausible one, that he just wants to out a mason, and then using a platitude "lynch all liars" to trumpet the crusade.

I believe lynching liars promotes good town play, which I've read quite a few times in the wiki page from this site.

I believe lynching scum promotes good town play

Great so we're in agreement. Self vote please.

Some comments about your game.

1) You need to learn that you are not a town-hunting god, or a scum-hunting god. Even I am not a god, I am a demigod.

2) You need to learn about behavioural scum/town hunting.

3) You need to learn about scum team analysis.

4) You need to play with me more.

5) You need to play with Kaboose more.

6) You need to be able to find out who has town in their best interests and who has scum in their best interests.

[Whatisswag]

It happens.

We could lynch outside of Kaboose and Whatisswag and see if the scumteam takes the possible bait.

No. I die, or Kaboose die. Of course I prefer the latter one. If neither is going to die, I will find a way to die.(How about requesting to get modkilled?)

[Whatisswag]

It happens.

We could lynch outside of Kaboose and Whatisswag and see if the scumteam takes the possible bait.

No. I die, or Kaboose die. Of course I prefer the latter one. If neither is going to die, I will find a way to die.(How about requesting to get modkilled?)

See? Such scum team.

[Whatisswag]

i mean, it's not even a mastermind move

1for1 scum for mason is really dumb on day 2

It is if he was boned. Might as well try to spin out of it. A 1 for 1 trade for scum is a hell of a lot better than 0 for 1.

Look, before you replaced in, I was literally the most town read dude.

[Whatisswag]

okay I

ROLECLAIM: Gladiator

I

Challenge: Kaboose

Not how gladiator works.

U know what, I am getting tired of this.

Roleclaim: Mason

I targetted Kaboose last night and Kaboose was scum.

This isn't worded correctly for one thing in my opinion as you probably would have said something like "I attempted to recruit Kaboose last night and it failed." would probably be more suitable. Also why did you wait so long to tell us this? Considering your posts since D2 started...

NJAC

- 7 - Kaboose,

Cheetory6

, Green Crayons, Lone Ranger, Grib, davesaz, Whatisswag - (L-0) (LYNCH!)

There's

at least

two scum there.

I disagree. I would think that the lurkers pile has more scum. usually in my town games, I get at least some number of scum reads. This game, I have none so far (surprisingly). Either someone is super good at being scum or the lurking people...

Elle claims there are scum on the wagon there, and you disagree with her... While I'm on it?

Why is Cheetory killed? Is it possible because elle is scum?

You again accuse Elle of being scum.

972 - In this post you reply to all my concerns on you with no problem or questions of concern towards me.

@dave:

Brain Edit: Wait, she said she wasn't recruited, which in this game is a VT claim. How is it town to claim VT right at the top of day 1? It just makes scum's job easier.

I'm not following what you are saying.

It is a VT claim to say you're not recruited. VT claims in a mason game narrow down the range of players who might be mason, and scum need to identify masons to eliminate them before LYLO (assuming the game gets that far). There is no good town motivation to claim, especially this early in the day.

There are scum reasons for doing it, in particular to fish for mason reactions like "how do you know anyone was recruited". Masons should keep their mouths shut BTW.

BS. Masons know not to say anything.

What I'm pointing out with it is that I think they would have recruited between:

Me. LR. GC. Grib. davesaz.

Since I wasn't, that leaves the other 4. And I'm pretty damn sure scum is in there.

I want scum to know I wasn't recruited. Because it increases the likelihood that they WERE.

And I get a warm feeling inside when I imagine them worrying about it, wondering when it'll come out, waiting, waiting.

No, just no. Stupid. You need a vote.

VOTE: elleheathen

You decide to vote Elle, and then unvote her in like the next post or close to it. Why were you on Elle if you already knew I was scum based on your claim?

@Swag, What really townie things did Elle do?

Your last series of posts look like scum catch up. People are talking about Elle scum, I'll throw in a vote bc her reads suck. Shit, wagon has resistance. Better unvote.

Your last post is ridiculous. No one points the finger at themselves.

Considering the fact you've allegedly read, what are your reads?


@Dave, My scumgame is much better than that. Ask Grib (aka Snowvon). I scumhunt by supposing people take optimal actions based on what they know. Elle's play is suboptimal for scum there and I was explaining that to Grib.

elle's towny behaviour would be mentioned later when I have time.

My second strongest town read died in the night.

So now it is this:
davesaz- confirm town, whoever is targetting dave screw off.
Heartless- towny, both parts of the hydra display town behaviour even though their playstyles can be different.
Green crayons- a little bit town, his walls and his slightly aggressive behaviour is town. But the fact that he switches his playstyle when LR targets him jumps out to me
Lone ranger- a little bit town, this is gut
Titus- a little bit town, this is gut
elle- null
Grib- null, I cannot read this guy even though I played with him before.
Mala- a little bit scum, partially because both the original dude and the replacement is lurking, partially because awesome did not really do much in terms of giving reads.
Kaboose- a little bit scum. He seem somewhat different when I played with him, in a scummy way.
I cannot remember any other people.

First time you mention me in D2 as "little bit scum" but you tried to recruit me last night and it failed... so i'm just a little bit scum because of that.. Cool.

I first read the role claim of his and just thought "He's trying really hard to get me lynched, but he just recently jumped on me, that claim doesn't make sense."

Then my next thought was "Oh he's simply scum trying to mislynch me!"

But then I thought "Nah, scum wouldn't do that because the real recruiting mason would just counterclaim him and he would be dead."

Then I was like "Oh crap he's trying to get someone to counterclaim so mafia will know another mason!"

Swag if you're somehow town, this was a shit move. Because it could force a counterclaim and if it doesn't you end up night killed anyways. Why the desperation? This is so anti-town. Nothing good can come from this claim you just made.

I believe in lynching liars. On top of that I wanted you lynched anyways because of how you ended D1.

VOTE: WhatisSwag

Kaboose shows too much caution to be town. I am just the opposite of him.

[Whatisswag]

I really dont know how much you people understand about caution is scum, reckless is town.

[Whatisswag]

reinoe is not someone to take cues from, swag

I dont care. Eventually forum mafia will be reckless mafia instead of the word walls that everyone is writing.

[Whatisswag]

Actually I like doing this. Gets everyone to think about Kaboose.

[Whatisswag]

lol

not on ms it won't.

Okay... maybe not.

[Whatisswag]

I seriously dont understand why people are not voting Kaboose.

Case 1: I am mason, Kaboose is scum.

Case 2: I am scum, Kaboose is vt (or he would have claimed long ago).

Obviously it is better to try your chances at a possible vt instead of a possible mason.

This literally is a scumclaim and details his scum motivation. He was mason fishing on someone he could not get mislynched.

You eliminated you being a VT which is how people are townreading you at all. You are trying to force facts a five year old knows are false. After a scum flip and 3 days pass, my reading skills are nearly unmatched.

You've also insulted me multiple times in a manner that suggests you know I am town, when your own posts suggest you should be scumreading me.

@Grib, If you're wanting to set up bait for scum, best not to outright announce itm

This aggresiveness is not the scum play.

[Whatisswag]

Come on, people should start voting. If not something like day 1 will happen.

[Whatisswag]

Titus, who you thinking besides swag?

I would like to know that too. After, I want to know who the other two dudes mistaken as my partners are.

[Whatisswag]

Hmm.

Find me a scum pair which is more possible than Kaboose and Green. And I will unvote.

[Whatisswag]

In my first scum game I played in (which has finished long ago),

Also for a heads up.

When newbies play with newbies; the lack of interactions is pretty damning because they find it awk to interact with each other because they are more paranoid. This is coming from experience because I found myself in my first few scum games ignoring pretty much all my scum partners while interacting with others.

So lack of interactions isn't such a town tell Nether

This is the reason why Green and Kaboose are scum team. Kaboose dont bother reading Green, Green dont bother about Kaboose either.


@Green crayons, what... checking out those two.

[Whatisswag]

Malakittens is town. Now to wait for the other replacements (who hopefully will also make their alignments apparent).

Oh ok. It seems I forgot about this post.

[Whatisswag]

A thing about those two people is that LR thinks awesome is scum but when Mala comes in, she is town. The interaction is unnatural but I dont see why scum wants to do that to a scum partner. It just attracts attention.

[Whatisswag]

Ok I will wait for LR's opinion on that.

[Whatisswag]

It is probably Kaboose+ Green + (Mala/elle)

I believe that there are two scum out of this four.

[Whatisswag]

Since there is no reaction on Kaboose, I would have to move my baseline back a bit. I would be happy with a Mala or elle lynch too.