Open 611 - Making Friends and Enemies (Game Over!)

[Killthestory]

VOTE: gob
Because fuck you Gobln <3

~Vote tag fixed

[Killthestory]

Fuck I'm too used to FM lol

[Killthestory]

Putting someone at L-4 during RVS? That'd be silly

[Killthestory]

bbt could you ontify us day started next time

im on break but i already got town reads on fire and a small scum read on luna

Why?

[Killthestory]

bbt could you ontify us day started next time

im on break but i already got town reads on fire and a small scum read on luna

Why?

post 15

I'd admit, that is rather odd. Wouldn't Masons attempt to target scummy people or townish people alike? More so scummy players?

VOTE: LunaFox
I do say I'm curious to see your explanation.

[Killthestory]

[youtube][/youtube]

I'd admit, that is rather odd. Wouldn't Masons attempt to target scummy people or townish people alike? More so scummy players?

Because then they can surprise scum late game by having a bunch of conftowns without scum realizing.

But wouldn't finding scum early game be much more beneficial?

[Killthestory]

Besides, if Masons focus on towny players, while during the day phase we lynch scummy players it gives less spots for scum to hide in.
While if a scum can become super towny, and wont be lynched and Masons dont attempt to recruit them then they can easily coast until endgame undetected.
So i think this course of action will corner scum more easily.

This isn't specifically what your post said.

Your post was very much like fence sitting. You said they wouldn't be townie or scummy, but this is implying that players naturally scummy all the time.

You said they would lay under the radar, but isn't this also considered scummy? Your post is essentially a fluff (l
("Fluff" is what we call any and all irrelevant or simply unsubstantial talk during the day. Examples can be as little as "good job jailor" or as big as people having a full-on conversation about their favorite anime. The fact is, ToS is a game of strategy- not a chatroom. If you find someone with similar interests and want to talk to them, that's awesome. But please, add them after the game and discuss it somewhere else. Saying "gj jailor" or "omg vig why did you random shoot" may seem harmless, but when all 13 people in the game say it, you've just wasted 13 lines of chat to pretty much not do anything at all.) Seeing as your post is mainly useless.

This also can be a post to fall back on later

[Killthestory]

You shouldn't be needing to ask anyone for insight on something so simple.

Regardless, that doesn't excuse fence sitting.

[Killthestory]

I'm asking because I want to know people's opinions.
I'm not fencesitting, i made my thoughts clear as day. Tho if people still can't understand them then they can ask.

Another contradiction? You just practically admitted to fence sitting in your previous post.
How is asking for insight wanting to know others opinions?

[Killthestory]

I really think it was a innocent question to ask for someone who hasn't played this setup, putting it as Null.

Why speculate when you don't know?

[Killthestory]

I really think it was a innocent question to ask for someone who hasn't played this setup, putting it as Null.

Why speculate when you don't know?

What? This game is like 99% speculation lol.

That's completely moronic then.

[Killthestory]

everyone who's posted so far is probably town

I kind of agree, not sure on ika tho.

This is idiotic, too.

Activity does not equal town. Even thinking that (and sheeping it) absolutely astounds me.

@Fire, Speculating does nothing but create doubts. Mafia is about thinking on your feet, not thinking of every possible scenario.

[Killthestory]

...who said i was townreading for activity?

"Everyone who's posted is probably town."
This implies activity and not much else, since there isn't a lot of content on the first few pages. Plus, you never really backed up your reads with much regardless.

[Killthestory]

Killthestory seems like one of those players who looks for meaning in every post, when it lacks substance she will create it!
Reminds me of some players that I both enjoy and hate playing with lol

There should be substance in every post. Meaningless one liners don't help progress the game whatsoever.

[Killthestory]

ToS game forums.

FM

[Killthestory]

I still don't understand why i'm being voted.
I'm being transparent with my thoughts.

Literally everything you say is scummy as fuck.

You just gave a town read to Heart without even explaining the read.

[Killthestory]

Literally everything you say is scummy as fuck.

You just gave a town read to Heart without even explaining the read.

It's more or less gut.
Their posting looks townie to me, I've always gone by always speaking what is in my mind, so i said it.

Gut? GUT?!?!?!

I quit. *sigh*

[Killthestory]

Also please explain, how what im doing is scummy.
And please be honest whether you think if it's just scum motivation or just dislike the posting or play style.

Ok, I'll PbPA every post of yours when I get off work.

[Killthestory]

k1ll gut posts are my most accurate form of reads, why would you want luna NOT to speak her mind?

Do you do gut reads this early?

Do you agree with her read?

[Killthestory]

I see clear reasoning, you seem awfully ready to hand out town-reads.

I town hunt.

So does scum

[Killthestory]

Analysing what people might do is useless in the long run.

Meta is easily changed and crafted. It isn't something that's used to hunt scum. That'd why Analysing who might do what is useless.

[Killthestory]

I explained the details of my game plan, this is not meta related.

Besides it's quite easy for scum to fake scumhunt when all they do is say someone's scum for post X and then leave and let the towns do the scumhunting and attack each other.

No, what I'm saying is your post about what people might do is completely useless and was fluffing.

[Killthestory]

My post was entirely serious.

Serious and Usefulness don't go hand in hand.

[Killthestory]

My post accomplished multiple things.
1) I laid my thoughts about the setup.
2) People dropped the RVSing because now they are focusing on some content i.e my post and all the reactions to it.
3) I have now townreads on multiple people based on their reactions to this.

I do have to say that my post accomplished the goal of getting us out of RVS and got us moving.

So you accomplished making yourself look bad?

What kind of logic is that?

[Killthestory]

Omg now everyone's fucking sheeping me as town. Only Experience actually posted reasons, God dammit.

Expedience, Hon, you don't know what in the fuck I'm actually doing, so don't pretend you do. Okay, Dear, thanks ^-^.

Now Luna, convince me with your most recent posts you're actually town seeing as all I'm seeing is a bit of sheeping and useless reads.

[Killthestory]

k1ll

???????

is there a clique from another site?
you seem like you already know each other

We come from the same site and have played mafia over there while my username was K1llthestory. So that means he knows my meta, yes. However meta is a piece of shit scum hunting tool because I'm changing it and re-applying it to different areas.

[Killthestory]

Um Heartless? No.

Scum can easily do that shit just as easily as I see you do it. It's called fluffing, and it's how I find scum.

[Killthestory]

Give me tommorow to reply to everything.

Meanwhile, I'm going to bash my head into a fucking wall because of these moronic comments.

[Killthestory]

I'm going to bash my head into a fucking wall because of these moronic comments.

this is unnecessary, remember that this is a game so let's all be nice to each other ok? ^_^

It's not nice to make me pay for the damages

[Killthestory]

But then where would I get the excuse to flip tables

[Killthestory]

Alright first off lads (heartless), I know what the fuck I'm doing lads. Don't criticize me because you think I'm a newb, because I'm not.

Anyways lads, you want to know part of my meta? I push until I'm convinced your town. I'll throw bullshit accusations around just to test your reactions, per say. Are my arguments shit? Yes. Do I know that? Yes

Now as for Vedith, explain further as to why you voted me lad.

[Killthestory]

I think your reads are shit, and you barely posted any content.

[Killthestory]

i mean if im going to have to be in this game, im going to speak my mind.

just do

everyone

a favor, not just me.

"Everyone"?

You're the only one I see complaining, hon.
Also, is someone forcing you to be here? Because that's the way you worded it. :S That doesn't sound like fun at all.

-TTH

Do I have to complain? Because I will.

Your stupid petty arguments don't progress the game any further, so stop making excuses about it and just not do it.

[Killthestory]

We weren't talking about that shit. We were talking about the stupid one liners.

Gr8 subject change m8, I r8 8/8

[Killthestory]

Holy moly 13 pages already??

I don't like friends. They hold me back.

All I need is people to sheep me. They don't have to like me, just agree with my votes!

I know it's called making friends and enemies, but you don't actually have to make enemies FB.

Luna Fox has requested replacement.

wth Luna?

That's the spirit!

You know what.
I'm just gonna ignore it... sigh.

I knew that FB...

My apologies KTS.

luna town fire shut up

Because these are useful

VOTE: Heartless

You're way too defensive to be town m80

[Killthestory]

Your mean girl routine is bothering me a lot more than anything Firebringer's doing.

-TTH

Like I give a fuck. I'm normally bitchy, but I still play to win.

Also, stop fucking putting -TTH, it bothers me almost as much as your subject changes.

[Killthestory]

Do you know what a hydra is or why I'm doing that?

Yeah, yet your other guy doesn't do it

Preferably, I'd you not do it, so you can't make the bullshit excuse of ignorance later on in the game.

[Killthestory]

really....

like fucking really

kill the story is VI material with Gob

Says the source of our problem. The amount of one liners that add no content whatsoever.

[Killthestory]

Now as for Vedith, explain further as to why you voted me lad.

50% or you attitude is anti town, it's going to be more of an issue going into the game later so I'd rather deal with the problem now.
50% because you do come across as scummy, you are scratching the sides for issues and trying to cause pointless bickering over the minimal stuff. You really aren't scum hunting or even town hunting as some prefer.

"Your attitude is anti-town" horrible reasoning.

How do you know I haven't scum hunted yet.

Apparently I thought you guys would be used to this type of shit at this point. I'm not actually angry nor mean. i
It's an effective way to scumhunt. Regardless, I apologized and will tone it down.

[Killthestory]

I also apologize to everyone I offended. I don't play to flame lol, I just play to win. So dont get offended by my bullshit because later on you'll learn I'm a bitch at heart.

[Killthestory]

Okay, let me re phase it... You are not coming across as scum hunting.
So tell me, what information did you get from your play style?
Talk to me more about Anti. 353 Why does it bother you? What's your opinion on Anti to TTH individually? I think it's pretty relevant at this stage.

I am.

Everything you do, I take notes lad. Someone who's giving me a bad feeling is good morning. 0 contribution to actual discussion, discredits me when I take note of this. Then sheeps the wagon on me and Fire.

Gob also is giving me a bad feeling. Gut read for him is scum (may as well adapt) seeing as back on the other site, he's very abbrasive and loud in general. This isn't mentioning the fact that he's pushing a lynch on Fire, who I gut read as town since scum doesn't truly want to draw attention this quick unless they want to attract a mason's attention. His reasoning for the vote was that he was annoyed, which isn't the play to win mentality I know he has.

I also don't like the way Vedith's acting, but I have the gut feeling he's actually town, and I'm just generally biased. However, it just feels he's a little too cautious when it comes to pressuring me. However, I just don't know how he acts in general.

My playstyle at that point in time was to anger everyone seeing as, generally, when people are angry, they give off more genuine reactions. I didn't expect to actually offend anyone, but I suppose you aren't used to this playstyle yet.

Also, my very pushy and aggressive nature is due to the fact that I love to push D1, and that D1 is the best day for me personally. It's where I gather data about all the players, gather reactions, and take notes for future reference. Most often, D1 notes come in handy.

@City, Pressure doesn't affect me in the slightest. I've been mislynches before and lynched as scum, so if town or scum, I can hide my feelings typically well in the long run. This isn't saying I don't have my kinks for either alignment, but I'm usually able to mask it well.

I'm also quite curious as to your scum read lol.

[Killthestory]

@KTS: Aside from that last post, a push on Luna, a half-hearted attempt at attacking GM and some arguing with Heartless where you seem to be basing your reads on how they react in an argument on fluff in thread (which IMO has zero to do with alignment or not) there's very little actually there on what you think on the players in the game. Like, yes, you may be scumhunting, but you're barely sharing any results and thought-processes, which makes your posts come off as scum trying to act town to me.

What are your thoughts on Anti? Town, scum? Why?

I was trying to give Anti a break since I might have pusses him off, but his partner was way too defensive for my liking. Town has no reason to be defensive, they should be scum hunting instead. Only scum or paranoid players become that defensive that quick.

[Killthestory]

@KTS: Aside from that last post, a push on Luna, a half-hearted attempt at attacking GM and some arguing with Heartless where you seem to be basing your reads on how they react in an argument on fluff in thread (which IMO has zero to do with alignment or not) there's very little actually there on what you think on the players in the game. Like, yes, you may be scumhunting, but you're barely sharing any results and thought-processes, which makes your posts come off as scum trying to act town to me.

What are your thoughts on Anti? Town, scum? Why?

I was trying to give Anti a break since I might have pusses him off, but his partner was way too defensive for my liking. Town has no reason to be defensive, they should be scum hunting instead. Only scum or paranoid players become that defensive that quick.

Pissed*

[Killthestory]

I don't think you've seen it work before. Pity.

The opposite effect it has is making you more transparent since people feel your anger is genuine. It's a good strategy if you got past the biased part.

As for discrediting me, I called you out on your shitty reads, and you did nothing but tell me off. Gr8 job m8.

[Killthestory]

Do I have to complain? Because I will.

Your stupid petty arguments don't progress the game any further, so stop making excuses about it and just not do it.

:S

For all of Anti's conversational posts, we have some like these

Spoiler:

Hi everybody, I'm TTH. ^_^/

I have to make this quick since I have somewhere to be in about 20 minutes, so let's go ahead and dig in.

I'll go ahead and start off by saying that Antihero's assessment of an all-town game start is quite hasty as I've already collected two scum reads in Firebringer and Expedience. Long story short on Firebringer is that he's turning up the charm in terms of tone and staying under the radar in terms of actual reads. In terms of reads, all I see is a "town lean" on ika (Post 42), which is a "no shit, Sherlock" read to anyone who knows him anyway, and little swipes at Luna (Post 66). The rest of the engagement is theory banter or endearing, witty banter. While I concede that he's absolutely adorable and cute, I think Firebringer's scum here.

We've also got Expedience here. Along with our resident crotchety grouch, Killthestory, he takes umbrage with the most innocuous things but unlike her, there's absent (or contradictory) lines of logic running through them. ika's assessment of Post 105 being a "pot shot" is very accurate and the bottom-line assertion that "This feels like a poor excuse which was made up after you were accused, rather than something that is consistent with your playstyle." is hilariously and fantastically baseless. Another absurd assertion: "I think a town member wouldn't read literally everyone who has posted all at once so dismissively." This doesn't take into account that Antihero's been on this site for 6 years and I'd think he would know things to look for and can process things like this without having to show

all

, or any for that matter, his work. The scum read on Antihero would be

more

palatable to me if he didn't say he agreed with most of Antihero's basic sentiment. But, as it stands, it looks like he's pushing something from the newbie book that's easy to shove.

Killthestory, your argument isn't that hard to knock over. People with different levels of experience will come into the game with different assumptions and different playstyles. The difference between seasoned players and newbies is like the difference between adults who know multiplication and division and second graders who are learning it. Of course their approach is going to

look

different. Do you show your arithmetic on your receipt when you're tipping? If not, does that mean you're not

actually

doing mental math because the thought process isn't written out?

When Antihero talks about "teachable moments," he's trying to challenge your assumptions and biases that are (largely) inaccurate. I think you'd do well to listen to him since he's a pretty strong town player but that's just my biased opinion, I suppose. ^_^

-TTH

They don't have good reasoning behind their vote, because being scum themselves they cannot legitimately scumhunt.

OK, NOW THAT I SAID ALL THAT, THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH TO THIS.
but i submit to you that it's a little more nuanced than "so-and-so didn't tack on an immediately obvious reason therefore there isn't one"

along that vein:

Town
Ika-Nothing has jumped at me to say anything otherwise. Ika posts are Ika posts.
Expediance-I don't think he is 'newbie' like everyone says. I also notice a tendancy for players to dismiss someone as newbie and it being blatantly false, so I am going with town for him just to be the black sheep.
Luna Fox-I don't know Luna fox well, nothing has jumped out at me, entrance was odd but playing a setup for first time and asking innocent questions seems fine to me. I did so in a completely different game as town and was scum read by everyone, so I understand.
Null
Killthestory-Puts too much thought into posts, could mean trying to find scum reads as scum, could be try hard town. Don't know, I know the playstyle of hers is familiar but reading players like this is hard.
Heartless-Townreads everyone which I have never seen heartless do, then scum reads me which I try to look at as a town tell but I think it felt forced to me. Null for now.
Alchemist-He just got in, not enough content. He seems like normal Alchemist that I like, but not ready to call him town yet. Liked his entrance though.
Scum
Gob-So little content, how can anyone town read gob? Putting gob at scum for now.
Vedith-HE MUST BE SCUM BECAUSE I SAID SO!

are these legitimate reasons? no, i don't think they are, and i think that gob scumread is an especially egregious example of the political maneuvering in this reads list. the other is the exp read. it's self-described as "dark horse" and i believe that. the residents of the dregs of the list, gob and vedith, are low-charisma sitting ducks that are easy pushes that are just dumped there under the banner of "low content" (the big boogey man of the game.)

(the paranoid side of me also says there's a reason luna made the town list while killthestory showed up in the nulls. from how the luna wagon rose [AND FELL] in the early game, it's pretty clear more of the current active posters are relating to luna a lot more than kill. as such, they're more likely to turn on her than luna. and firebringer knows that and gives himself room to shift later.)

We outlined our arguments pretty thoroughly and I hardly think it's fair to characterize them as "stupid and petty" because of Firebringer and Anti's subsequent back-and-forth. It isn't particularly bothersome even to me, and I think I have a relatively short attention span.

If you have anything you think is better, Kill, I'd certainly like to see it.

-TTH

Your mean girl routine is bothering me a lot more than anything Firebringer's doing.

-TTH

...or any of those people you just quoted.

-TTH

Seems to be pretty defensive along with all the dodging.

[Killthestory]

i accidentally clicked on my iso

i love me so much

post 211 i am dying

p-edit: I feel very sorry for you.

As for discrediting you, here's how that conversation went:
me: 'a long and rambling catchup post which i wasn't going to do until after sleep but oh well, if anyone has any questions i'll answer'
you: 'your reads are shit' (that's a direct quote, btw)
me: 'that wasn't a question.'

Maybe I should have instead asked you to clarify what, specifically, you found shit about my reads but, quite frankly, a little sass and a little sarcasm was really more what that post of yours deserved.

That is, of course, the other hallmark of the angry playstyle. Angry players always seem able to dish it out but I've never met a one who could take it.

p-p-edit: city stop being useful i need to scumread you

LOL DID YOU SAY I CANT TAKE IT? Multiple occasions of being called the f-word, n-word, c-word, and basically every insult you can think of. This is just by friends, too.

I want opinions from others beside Anti and GM, they seem to be oftely buddy-like.

@City How the fuck do you not see it? It's like, clear as day. She made a giant post about it and changed the subject repeatedly lol.

[Killthestory]

Hm, I guess not. I get the feeling the wrong people are being looked at though. Gob is still scum in my mind tbh lol.

[Killthestory]

@KTS: For someone attacking people over changing the subject and dodging stuff, you seem awfully eager to change the subject here. But do elaborate.

P-edit: GM: I knooooooow it's a hassle. Also, when did that claim happen?

It isnt a subject change when I've stated it before hand that I think Gob is scum.

[Killthestory]

@KTS: For someone attacking people over changing the subject and dodging stuff, you seem awfully eager to change the subject here. But do elaborate.

P-edit: GM: I knooooooow it's a hassle. Also, when did that claim happen?

It isnt a subject change when I've stated it before hand that I think Gob is scum.

Meaning that sitting here defending myself instead of doing something productive is silly.

VOTE: Gob

[Killthestory]

And also elabourate on gob beyond the whole gut thing which isn't your style anyway?

It isn't that.

Gobln is an abbrasive and loud dude. If you aren't hearing his opinions, then he isn't playing his fullest. He is always obnoxious about what he wants and when, and he scum hunts aggressively.

I haven't been seeing any of that here, since he's usually worse than the way I just played.

[Killthestory]

Analysing what people might do is useless in the long run.

Meta is easily changed and crafted. It isn't something that's used to hunt scum. That'd why Analysing who might do what is useless.

So I wasn't misremembering things. What do you have to say on this in relation to your reasoning to your gob scumread?

Gob doesn't manipulate meta. I can confirm from the multiple games Ive played with him. The only thing I'm worried about is that in his recent scum game, he played really loud as well, so I'm generally unsure if it's a scum play, or he just isn't as active and loud for some reason.

[Killthestory]

You've never actually played a game with real Gobln, but I guess he changed it up on MS. That's... Really weird. I can't read him now.

[Killthestory]

Right, and we're left with what exactly? gob changed his meta on MS woop-dee-doop cool story

whatever

I'mma go sleep brain has quit

FoS Gob.

I don't like the feeling I get about him. His playing now is an easy way to play, but it doesn't catch much scum. That isn't normal Gobln. At all.

[Killthestory]

Right, and we're left with what exactly? gob changed his meta on MS woop-dee-doop cool story

whatever

I'mma go sleep brain has quit

FoS Gob.

I don't like the feeling I get about him. His playing now is an easy way to play, but it doesn't catch much scum. That isn't normal Gobln. At all.

is now a bad time to point out that you're posting one liners that's adding length to the game without much of a tangible benefit to anyone outside this conversation of (you/gm/city)?

Um, scum hunting doesn't add benefit to everyone?
K then :>

[Killthestory]

kts, i swear you are going to take SOMETHING from my posting this game. and you're going to be a better player for it.

i've already sunk WAY too much emotional energy into this game for you to not

it's happening.

Nope.

Because I know everything you're saying, but that's for normal players. I'm not normal, I'm fucking crazy. You'll see that soon if I'm not NKed.

Stop treating me like a newb, too, lad, kbaithx.

[Killthestory]

Right, and we're left with what exactly? gob changed his meta on MS woop-dee-doop cool story

whatever

I'mma go sleep brain has quit

FoS Gob.

I don't like the feeling I get about him. His playing now is an easy way to play, but it doesn't catch much scum. That isn't normal Gobln. At all.

So... are you going to quantify this beyond a gut read and meta, considering how you've said that both of those things aren't good to use to read people?

This post reads like someone trying to backpedal but not doing it too much because they don't want to look inconsistent.

I already gut read him in the before post I talked about him, which stated (may as well adapt) since I've read up on a couple games, and surprisingly, MS gut reads seem to be pretty consistent.

Meta is unreliable for certain players. Gobln isn't one.

[Killthestory]

No, not really. You're personality is the complete opposite of how you're acting.

[Killthestory]

No, not really. You're personality is the complete opposite of how you're acting.

Lmfao, may be due to the fact i was temp-banned.

Lets just end this discussion, and move on.

I'd rather not change the subject Gob.

What are your reads.

[Killthestory]

Yet you said that Vedith's vote on me was town.

Why?

[Killthestory]

I like how I come back, and I'm still being townread after being horribly fucking inactive.

Holy shit this hurts. a lot. Anyways bois, I didn't like City from the get go, but I'm going to have to ISO the posts, so ya. Give me a sec.

[Killthestory]

So yeah, iso'd City's posts and it's looking really bad for them.

I see not much contribution, a lot of sheeping, and pushing for a couple lynches.

[Killthestory]

Hammertime

VOTE: CityElectric

[Killthestory]

nah, if I was scum, I wouldn't be so careless llol. To be honest, I might even be slightly more active cuz I'd actually remember to get on once in a while lol.

if ur gonna read me as scum, at least don't sheep and change your opinion if someone else reads me as scum. it bugs me.