Open 614: Diffusion of Power (THE TOWN WINS!)

[TimHoward]

VOTE: Kop

For information (and for policy )

Also - we're town!

-Frog

[TimHoward]

Wouldn't it be better to have N1 Cop claim if we knew there was a N1 Doc? Otherwise scum just NK's the N1 Cop and hopes there's no doctor. WIFOM I guess at that point, but at least it's WIFOMing scum.

[TimHoward]

ikaaaaaaaaa...don't go to work noooo! (ok, I'll let it slide because you are using my favorite avi)

i'll be up late tonight working on my NFL stuff.

Have a good evening at work (but first, tell me you're town please)

-Frog

[TimHoward]

i was a horrable player last game

Plan on being any better this game?

[TimHoward]

pedit: nope

VOTE: KTthecreeper

wagon time!

[TimHoward]

BBT head here and catching up.

[TimHoward]

VOTE: Kop

For information (and for policy )

Also - we're town!

-Frog

I endorse this vote.

I think this game is stupidly broke for the town if town just claims the cop of the night and uses it to clear someone. Sure they become a VT after but a confirmed one, and one that scum is going to have the hardest damn time counterclaiming. I feel the way the game is set up is abusable and it's just for us to find it.

I don't think it's that easy. We would have to have a Doc who can use his power on the same night as the Cop and I don't think that's guaranteed?

Anyway, set-up spec will usually favour scum so we should try to avoid that and just play the game.

~BBT

[TimHoward]

Well I think it's safe to say ika might be town this game.

Is it so safe that the strongest word you can use is 'might'? Or is that because you're conscious of not scum slipping and don't want to say 'ika is town'?

Also, Wanderer engage with me. I would like to try to get a read on you and you are very null for me.
Lets try rectifying that, shall we?

Why Wanderer? Can I take that to mean you have a read on everyone else that has posted so far? If so, can you tell me them all?

~BBT

[TimHoward]

Tim can you explain to me why your not voting the guy with a cop guilty on him?

a) we are voting kt creeper
b) STFU about this day cop guilty shit and stop trolling


-Frog

[TimHoward]

I believe the votes on Flow Alpha are completely opportunistic/stupid.

I want to analyze both Aj and KThecreeper now.

Woah, hard WK mode engaged! Scum points for you!

snip reads list

Icky. Unpromtped reads list that doesn't really say a whole lot. Trying to look town right after accusing another slot of trying to look town. WF is probably scum.

I thought KT's response to Alpha's claim was pretty awkward. Like why would he vote and say he's probably going to change? Doesn't sound too convinced..

VOTE: KTthecreeper

Are you expecting a water-tight case on page 4?

PEdit - that was a joke. Everton/Liverpool is a football rivalry.

UNVOTE:

[TimHoward]

VOTE: White Fire

[TimHoward]

can we not make page sized shit posts of this anime bullshit please

Thoughts on White Fire?

~BBT

[TimHoward]

Because as we all know finding some votes opportunistic is the epitome of white knighting

Can you explain how the votes were 'opportunistic'? Can you explain why you were town reading Flow hard enough to feel the need to come out and defend them against two measly votes.

Ktthecreeper: take a look at his reaction to our claim and tell me again he has any chance whatsoever of being town. That OMGUS was almost reflexive, and he reacted like a cornered rat.

What about his reaction specifically told you he was scum?

TimHoward: seems legit. Cant see why voting WF though. Looks like a forced bus if you squint at it

I have explained why we're voting WF - you must not be looking hard enough.[/quote]
The timing of this list is all wrong - feels like you did it to appease Tex who voted for you.

VOTE: Panopticon[/quote
Why?

I'm the Town Night 4 Doctor

lynch me please but remember alphas trying to get an easy mislynch

This claim is...dodgy.

ok so Flow Alpha first off claimed a role not on the role list first off i thought oh hes just joking around but now its gone too far hes basicly saying oh i'm gonna fake claim on this guy whos not gonna know what to do so boom easy mislynch. Okay but even if he was daycop no one would use the role in the opening minutes of day 1 thats just dumb you should get some reads first then invest the most susp person but flow alpha suposidly invested me opening minutes and said it came up scum witch is just BS. Now lets get into how he hasn't posted anything but OMG KT IS SCUM just look at his ISO he hasn't made a non RVS post not about how you should lynch me he has been ignoring the other things in the game theres alot of things he can talk about but he chooses to try to get an easy mislynch on me.Now if you want to lynch me fine do it but remember when i flip town Alpha is scum 100% if i flip scum well RIP in RIP basterd mod

Does this boil down to 'I think his reaction test is coming from a scum mindset?' If so, how do you differentiate between a scum reaction test and a town reaction test. In fact, why would scum even attempt a reaction test?

town on ika andDavsto

Davsto is town for being good active and made some good post

Ika is town beacuse hes been active and made some good reads

Why are you associating activity with alignment? What 'good posts' has Davsto made? What 'good reads' has ika made?

~BBT

[TimHoward]

Quotes messed up.

Mod, can you fix that please?

[TimHoward]

beacuse is 83 i was gonna be away for awhile and i thought things would change then i saw how BS alpha was being and i thought *welp looks like i found me a scum lets get the town to see things my way*

Can I ask you to clarify in one sentence exactly why you're scum reading Flow please?

Also, you missed this;

Does this boil down to 'I think his reaction test is coming from a scum mindset?' If so, how do you differentiate between a scum reaction test and a town reaction test. In fact, why would scum even attempt a reaction test?

Why are you associating activity with alignment?

Davsto's post that make me think hes a town trying to scumread are: 19, 33, 49, and 120

I don't see what you're seeing in these posts - can you explain what makes you think Davsto is town from these posts please?

ika's are: 46, 54, 56, and 62

Same for these. I don't see how you're getting town reads from these posts.

~BBT

Before I carry on; can we please stop with these huge fucking images. It's annoying.

~BBT

Notice that Kthcreeper is more active in this now, and Kop too.

Point of posting this was...?

Horrible post, and now Kop is on my radar.

Can you explain what you don't like about the post?

Honestly though kop and panopticon are so townie right now its not even funny

Talk me through that Kop read.

~BBT

Because as we all know finding some votes opportunistic is the epitome of white knighting

Can you explain how the votes were 'opportunistic'? Can you explain why you were town reading Flow hard enough to feel the need to come out and defend them against two measly votes.

~BBT

WF, you must have missed this.

Picking these up.

Too early for Mafia clearly....

[TimHoward]

Birthday Hammer

VOTE: KTthecreeper

-Frog

[TimHoward]

We were prodded. I've been on V/LA. Will catch up tomorrow.

-Frog

[TimHoward]

I'm here and catching up.

~BBT

[TimHoward]

I have some stuff to respond to from D1 so I'm going to get this out of the way first.

Post 78 stems from a town mindset. That's why kop is town.

Really? I got nothing but a big, fat null from 78 so, yeah, walk me through that?

Spoiler: Kop's reads

Here is what I am up too.

Davesto

I have re-read, that whole scenario with Ika, and I for the life of me, can't determine what the point he was aiming for. Banter? That's the only thing that I can gain from that showdown. Since then, he hasn't engaged a great deal with anyone. He opposes Varsoons Idea, but I can see a positive in that plan to be honest. Whilst it only being the one positive in that idea, it's still not a full on bad idea.

White Lion

I am leaning town, because he is genuinely trying to figure out the game, and is prodding the stick in order to engage reactions, and to figure out stuff. Scum would be happy to sit back and allow people to do the work, at this stage anyway.

KT

I have already expressed my feelings. What I did look back is when he roleclaimed, he roleclaimed at L-3. Does this tell me more about his claim looking more into it? Could this be an whole idea to draw out the real doctor if he is lying about it? The whole reaction to the gambit played by Alpha was just very poor. Town reaction or scum caught out reaction? The whole reaction stinks of the latter to be totally honest, the day cop role isn't stated on P1 so I wouldn't have even entertained Alpha on that gambit alone.

Panopticon

#34 I do see bad points in this idea, but I do see some good points. The way I would suggest doing it, is if we are going down this route, is only have the cop for that night claim, and the doctor can protect him, then scum would just generally have to shoot somewhereelse. Instead of keeping it quiet and there is a chance that scum, could hit the cop for that night, the cop claiming gives the doctor a person to protect, scum could easily claim that cop slot, yes, but I think we would see who is telling the truth dependant on the person who they named is lynched.

Wanderer

I don't have a great deal to say about Wanderer, there is a few posts in there that is giving me town vibes, but that is about it.

Who would I want to lynch out of there? I'd be going for KT, Davsto, and Alpha (depending on scenarios)

OK, I have spoilered all the reads I want to respond to.

You have Davsto as null, why is he an acceptable lynch and AJ is not?

I think your town read on WF is based on poor presumptions. It looks like you give 3 reasons for town reading WF, when actually, you have one just restated in different ways.

I'm confused as to why you thought KT's reaction was a scummy reaction when you said yourself it was a poor gambit as the role is quite clearly not present in this set-up. I'm not following your thought process here at all.

You give no read on Pano and instead choose to talk set-up spec; do you have a read?

Can you quote the posts from Wanderer that were giving you town vibes?

I think Kop looks town because he's willing to "make enemies" with his reads and the attention he's paid to the game looks like scumhunting rather than faking it.

I'm gonna VOTE: Davsto.

I think Kop's list was pretty poor and he does a good job of avoiding directly calling anyone scum - where is he 'making enemies'? Like, show me one read where you think 'Oh shit, Kop is about to get some backfire for that comment'.

Also, why Davsto?

~BBT

[TimHoward]

No, my reason for voting you is that I'm not townreading you.[/quote
Why Davsto other your other non town-reads?

why are you trying to lynch a claimed doctor?

Scum slip? You're scum who forgot we have no VTs?

~BBT

[TimHoward]

First quote messed up,

fix please Mod?

[TimHoward]

VOTE: KTthecreeper

I'm not going to be around for the next 8-24 hours (depending on how wasted I get tonight after the cremation) so either finish this with KT's lynch or wait for me to get back please.

I don't like this vote. You haven't said much outside of KT during the whole of D1.

Yo, KT's reaction is basically panicking newbie scum 101.

VOTE: KTthecreeper

L-1

Another bad vote - where the hell did this come from?

VOTE: Panopticon

Reasons?

VOTE: Flow Alpha

Again, how the fuck does everyone just run with that wagon?

Yeah, that's a nice over-reaction to the wagon. I hardly saw you calling out the wagon and attacking the people on it.

Now I have the nagging feeling that AJ defended him on purpuse to get teh cred from his flip >.<

Where was AJ defending him?

~BBT

[TimHoward]

He was still fine with a bunch of sheeple following him. Not once was he suspicious. Unbelievably arrogant and boneheaded, not accepting any possibility he was wrong. If he felt so strongly, why fake claim in the first place?

Where was all this Yesterday? Why the sudden gusto today? This is so very likely to be coming from scum - you allowed the KT wagon to go through and now you're chastising Flow as he is the easiest guy to pin it on.

D1 final vote count

KTthecreeper

(7): Flow Alpha, Panopticon, White Fire, KTthecreeper, Wanderer-nl, Davsto, TimHoward

Davsto

(2): ika, Anatole Kuragin

Flow Alpha

(1): texcat

White Fire

(1): Aj The Epic

Not Voting

(2): davesaz, Kop

Flow Alpha -- I can see the fakeclaim being scum, mainly because it is so far out there. So far out there that many people would classify it as too scummy to be scum.

TimHoward used poor reasoning on the hammer post. Scum in this wagon position would get a free shot to hammer without ramifications, given ika is a notorious hammerer and had given intent.

Why did you choose to focus on Flow and us? I think there were plenty of poor votes on that wagon. This is your first substantial post in the game and it's seriously lacking.

there was nothing scummy about the reaction

see: his flip

Townies can be scummy.

There's been a lot of destructive criticism about it with almost no attempts to improve upon the idea or suggest something else in its place.

I'll explain this further.

Guilty results should result in a hard claim. Innocent results, keep quiet unless we're looking to lynch that player. Start soft and defend progressively harder. There is no need to directly claim innocent results up front, because by hard claiming you remove yourself from the pool that scum should target. Docs should say nothing at all. Again, claiming just narrows the pool of kill targets.

Set-up spec - anything to actually contribute to the game?

~BBT

[TimHoward]

I don't see any reason to hold off voting.
VOTE: Flow Alpha

Icky.

I'm caught up.

AJ/Davesaz/AK/Kop all look like wonderful lynch options.

VOTE: AJ The Epic

[TimHoward]

"Allowed" as in was opposed but not listened to. I spent the entirety of yesterday saying the KT lynch was bad and that Fire/Alpha was a better lynch. Would like to see what you're reading.

Show me you fighting the KT wagon.

~BBT

[TimHoward]

Two posts...is that it? I haven't even looked at them yet but I will later when on laptop.

You've made a lot more noise than that this DP already.

It doesn't add up.

[TimHoward]

inb4 prod

-Frog

[TimHoward]

Don't hammer until I post.

I'm in the process of it

Frog

[TimHoward]

I agree with BBT that AJ is likely scum, but I also believe lynching AJ doesn't give us the most information. Why? Let's look at the D1 wagon...

Official Vote Count

KTthecreeper

(7): Flow Alpha, Panopticon, White Fire, KTthecreeper, Wanderer-nl, Davsto, TimHoward

Davsto

(2): ika, Anatole Kuragin

Flow Alpha

(1): texcat

White Fire

(1): Aj The Epic

Not Voting

(2): davesaz, Kop

There's 100% at least one scum on the KT wagon. There's a reason ika was killed, and that's because he was OFF the wagon, so scum wanted to keep the lynch pool as wide as possible because they know they were on the wagon (and KT self voted) and that's the first place people would look. They didn't want to narrow the pool down to 4 (from my point of view, 5 from others), and instead keep it at 5/6 depending on POV.

That means guaranteed at least one scum (maybe 2 or 3) in Flow Alpha, Panopticon, White Fire, Wanderer, and Davsto.

Flow Alpha feels like the easy target from that wagon, which is why BBT voted AJ, and I agree that's what it feels like AJ is doing. However, I do believe we should lynch in that wagon because it's the easiest path to finding at least one scum.

Since I don't believe it's Flow Alpha, that means Pano, White Fire, Wanderer, and Davsto would be the pool I would be targeting. BBT and I do not like the continued hydra dissonance from White Fire. Continued hydra dissonance without any attempt at resolution is very scummy.

I realize this probably makes us look scummy if Flow Alpha flips scum as me trying to dismantle the wagon, but I don't care. I do agree however that Flow Alpha has been very anti-town in their posting, and we cannot have that continue through My/LyLo. So I will not be voting Flow Alpha, but getting rid of someone so anti-town is what it is. If Davsto wants to hammer after that. Fine. I'm not gonna stop it. The good thing is if FA flips town, the pool of who was on the KT wagon is narrowed further, especially from our point of view we'd be down to 4.

-Frog

[TimHoward]

Prod dodge again. These 24 hour prod timers are cray cray. I will post here in an hour or so.

[TimHoward]

I'm about to break down/respond to Wanderer's post, but first off I just wanted to say it's a good post and has made me feel somewhat better about Wanderer.

I don't feel like talking but with an imminent hammer I guess I should..

I've been keeping this quiet for a while because I always have a hard time reading BBT but I was scum with him recently and I sort of feel like I'm dealing with scum-BBT again.[/suote]
What make you think this is scum!BBT again? Because I was in that game too, and we are town here, and this is nothing like how BBT played there. Can you please give concrete reasons as to what gives you this feel?

I don't like Froggers last post. He agrees with BBT that AJ could be scum but instead wants to look at the Day 1 wagon.

What's wrong with scumhunting multiple people? There's more than one scum. We're in agreement on AJ, so I moved on to wagon analysis. I'm sorry if wagon analysis is scummy to you, but I find it useful to, you know, find scum.

He proceeds to make a pool of people that could be scum, but he doesn't talk about his own opinion about them.

This is a lie. I pointed out how I think White Fire's hydra dissonance is scummy. It's continued hydra dissonance that has happened more than once in the thread, and they haven't worked toward a solution/agreement on it, which is even more scummy. So no, I didn't need to point out how every single one of them could be scum, because that's not how it works. I don't need to point out how 4 or 5 people could be scum. I need to point out who is the scummiest on that wagon, and to me it's White Fire. Labeling all 4 or 5 of them as scum doesn't do anything to help town. I narrowed the field to 4 or 5, then gave my most likely scum and why.

He doesn't think Alpha is scum, but they're antitown so he's not doing anything about them being lynched, in which I don't see townmotivation.

I don't think Alpha is town. But I'm powerless to stop his lynch. Alpha just looks like he doesn't understand site lingo, and it's making Alpha play in an anti-town way. That's why I don't support the lynch, but I won't stop it either. Me flooding the thread with don't lynch Alpha won't help anyone.

Why aren't you fighting harder to get your scumread(s) lynched?

I have been. We're voting AJ, we've made our case on AJ, and there is a credible wagon on AJ. I don't see the problem.

I think TimHoward is scum and I intend to vote there after I had sleep.

Then you're voting town, plain and simple. Your points are fine and I can understand why you make them, and they're even pretty decent analysis, but they are also just wrong. I want you to think deeper and figure out why you think this feels like scum!BBT, because rest assured it's not. It's also not scum!frogger. We're town.

Now those 2 scumclaims by Alpha look really bad and if this was a closed setup I'd think we're dealing with an obvious jester, but we're not. I looked into Alpha's other games and the playstyle/attitude seems somewhat the same. The fakeclaim is something it's done before as town. The thought crossed my mind that Alpha is trying to fake their play this game, but I'm not convinced.

I actually like this part. IT shows town motivation and an attempt to understand if it's meta manipulation, or his actual meta. What have you concluded now that you've had time to stew on it?

[TimHoward]

oh fuck I cocked up the quotes.

[TimHoward]

Fixed this time...



I'm about to break down/respond to Wanderer's post, but first off I just wanted to say it's a good post and has made me feel somewhat better about Wanderer.

I don't feel like talking but with an imminent hammer I guess I should..

I've been keeping this quiet for a while because I always have a hard time reading BBT but I was scum with him recently and I sort of feel like I'm dealing with scum-BBT again.

What make you think this is scum!BBT again? Because I was in that game too, and we are town here, and this is nothing like how BBT played there. Can you please give concrete reasons as to what gives you this feel?

I don't like Froggers last post. He agrees with BBT that AJ could be scum but instead wants to look at the Day 1 wagon.

What's wrong with scumhunting multiple people? There's more than one scum. We're in agreement on AJ, so I moved on to wagon analysis. I'm sorry if wagon analysis is scummy to you, but I find it useful to, you know, find scum.

He proceeds to make a pool of people that could be scum, but he doesn't talk about his own opinion about them.

This is a lie. I pointed out how I think White Fire's hydra dissonance is scummy. It's continued hydra dissonance that has happened more than once in the thread, and they haven't worked toward a solution/agreement on it, which is even more scummy. So no, I didn't need to point out how every single one of them could be scum, because that's not how it works. I don't need to point out how 4 or 5 people could be scum. I need to point out who is the scummiest on that wagon, and to me it's White Fire. Labeling all 4 or 5 of them as scum doesn't do anything to help town. I narrowed the field to 4 or 5, then gave my most likely scum and why.

He doesn't think Alpha is scum, but they're antitown so he's not doing anything about them being lynched, in which I don't see townmotivation.

I don't think Alpha is town. But I'm powerless to stop his lynch. Alpha just looks like he doesn't understand site lingo, and it's making Alpha play in an anti-town way. That's why I don't support the lynch, but I won't stop it either. Me flooding the thread with don't lynch Alpha won't help anyone.

Why aren't you fighting harder to get your scumread(s) lynched?

I have been. We're voting AJ, we've made our case on AJ, and there is a credible wagon on AJ. I don't see the problem.

I think TimHoward is scum and I intend to vote there after I had sleep.

Then you're voting town, plain and simple. Your points are fine and I can understand why you make them, and they're even pretty decent analysis, but they are also just wrong. I want you to think deeper and figure out why you think this feels like scum!BBT, because rest assured it's not. It's also not scum!frogger. We're town.

Now those 2 scumclaims by Alpha look really bad and if this was a closed setup I'd think we're dealing with an obvious jester, but we're not. I looked into Alpha's other games and the playstyle/attitude seems somewhat the same. The fakeclaim is something it's done before as town. The thought crossed my mind that Alpha is trying to fake their play this game, but I'm not convinced.

I actually like this part. It shows town motivation and an attempt to understand if it's meta manipulation, or his actual meta. What have you concluded now that you've had time to stew on it?

[TimHoward]

@Wanderer - Are you town reading Flow Alpha at this point? If you were to town read Flow Alpha, would you feel comfortable letting Flow Alpha make it to LyLo?

[TimHoward]

Flow Alpha seems like lynchbait

[TimHoward]

I think thats a Null tell for me.
Like, I am pretty antagonistic regardless of alignment. Probably more of a dick as town than scum.

Self meta is scummy





-Frog

[TimHoward]

Well, BBT and I are probably wrong about one of AJ and White Fire. Because they aren't scum together. I'm sure one of them is...

[TimHoward]

Whoops

I feel like you're trying to push me into hammering Alpha, or trying to find out whether I investigated it last night.

No. I'm just asking you a question.

[TimHoward]

I'm fine with KT being the lynch.
The self-vote and blowing up is either coming from newb/anti-town or newb/scum.
Regardless, I'll take that gamble D1.

I think there's, realistically, two options here.
Flow Alpha is scum playing in a really scummy way. Partners are either bussing or stalling out the wagon enough for other players to second-guess it. We've already got people calling it too scum to be scum or thinking it's a policy kind of lynch.
Flow Alpha is town playing in a really scummy way. Scum could be on/off the wagon since it's an easy wagon to push, but it's easy to push for a reason.

Regardless, nearly every player has weighed in on Flow Alpha. A Flow Alpha flip gives us tons of info and gets rid of Flow Alpha. I think we can all agree that's a good thing, right?

So twice now you're ok with lynching either newb/bad town or scum and paint it as a good gamble.

When are you actually going to want to just lynch scum?

-Frog

[TimHoward]

Who else has really stuck out as scum from daystart?

AJ and White Fire.

And as I've pointed out, I doubt both are scum, but I'm positive at least one is. Just need to sort which.

[TimHoward]

Although that White Fire hammer/continued dissonance has me leaning that way.

[TimHoward]

Hey guys. So this wagon on us is scum movitvated, because we're town. Both wanderer and Kop's votes on us are bad.

BBT and I are both incredible scum players, and we wouldn't be scuking this hard if we were scum. For me, Kop should 100% know this isn't my scum game. I played masterfully in CDB's game and won it. Setup was 6-2-1, I was the 1 and only had 1 night kill all game. And in Delicious with Kop my two scumbuddies got guilties on them, yet I only finally got cross/nightkilled by the other scum team the night before mylo. Fire knows this isn't my scumgame - I've been too crap here. I had the whole town town-reading me by the time I replaced out of the game for RL reasons the time I was scum in a game with/against Fire.

Wanderer just rolled scum with BBT and still hasn't answered me on why he thinks this is reminiscent of that game. He's dodged the question for some time now. And now he wants to make a case on us while still dodging that question. I think wanderer is more likely scum of the two voting us.

If we were Flow's scumbuddy, we would have bussed him a long time ago. Not sat there and defended him.

Spoiler: me defending FA

I agree with BBT that AJ is likely scum, but I also believe lynching AJ doesn't give us the most information. Why? Let's look at the D1 wagon...

Official Vote Count

KTthecreeper

(7): Flow Alpha, Panopticon, White Fire, KTthecreeper, Wanderer-nl, Davsto, TimHoward

Davsto

(2): ika, Anatole Kuragin

Flow Alpha

(1): texcat

White Fire

(1): Aj The Epic

Not Voting

(2): davesaz, Kop

There's 100% at least one scum on the KT wagon. There's a reason ika was killed, and that's because he was OFF the wagon, so scum wanted to keep the lynch pool as wide as possible because they know they were on the wagon (and KT self voted) and that's the first place people would look. They didn't want to narrow the pool down to 4 (from my point of view, 5 from others), and instead keep it at 5/6 depending on POV.

That means guaranteed at least one scum (maybe 2 or 3) in Flow Alpha, Panopticon, White Fire, Wanderer, and Davsto.

Flow Alpha feels like the easy target from that wagon, which is why BBT voted AJ, and I agree that's what it feels like AJ is doing. However, I do believe we should lynch in that wagon because it's the easiest path to finding at least one scum.

Since I don't believe it's Flow Alpha, that means Pano, White Fire, Wanderer, and Davsto would be the pool I would be targeting. BBT and I do not like the continued hydra dissonance from White Fire. Continued hydra dissonance without any attempt at resolution is very scummy.

I realize this probably makes us look scummy if Flow Alpha flips scum as me trying to dismantle the wagon, but I don't care. I do agree however that Flow Alpha has been very anti-town in their posting, and we cannot have that continue through My/LyLo. So I will not be voting Flow Alpha, but getting rid of someone so anti-town is what it is. If Davsto wants to hammer after that. Fine. I'm not gonna stop it. The good thing is if FA flips town, the pool of who was on the KT wagon is narrowed further, especially from our point of view we'd be down to 4.

-Frog

Flow Alpha seems like lynchbait

I even predicted we'd be the wagon if FA flipped scum in that first post in the spoiler.

Yes - I hammered KT because I thought they were scummy D1, which is why I voted them earlier in the day as well. But I guess Kop chose to ignore that fact.

[TimHoward]

Firebringer, let me ask you this: Do Frogger and BBT strike you as players that would almost completely ignore Alpha if they were town?

Oh shut up. I ignored MTD all game until after you and BBT flipped in numbers. AND I WAS TOWN.

[TimHoward]

Also - not going go give much credence to AJ's claim. Could be AJ/WF cross voted each other as scum yesterday and let town lynch their buddy. Now they are gambiting a cop claim.

Or could just be AJ is scum and knows WF is town cop claiming for town cred.

[TimHoward]

Or could just be AJ is scum and knows WF is town

so AJ is now

cop claiming for town cred.

EBWOP to make it more clear what I'm saying.

[TimHoward]

BBT and I were actually hoping to roll scum, because we both like playing scum better and we're both great at it. We would've steamrolled town. But we're lackluster town here.

[TimHoward]

^That's the scummiest vote so far.

When we flip town, realize this was a scum motivated wagon. They want us gone as the easy target.

[TimHoward]

AJ unvoted FA ... remember that folks. Now he's trying to get town cred for "copping" WF.

P-sure AJ is scum.

[TimHoward]

The apathetic "we wanted scum" is not cutting it, either.

do you really think this is how I'd play as scum? Really?

Piss off.

[TimHoward]

VOTE: Aj the Epic

[TimHoward]

Fair point. I've seen it once before, but it wasn't by the person leading the wagon.

UNVOTE:

If you really are town, this is good, even if we get lynched. Because then you'll lynch correctly tomorrow. It also means WF is confirmed town too which is even better.

[TimHoward]

Again - if I was scum, I wouldn't be making this many mistakes/playing this terribly.

[TimHoward]

So AJ - if you had to pick between Kop or Wanderer, who would you pick and why?

[TimHoward]

Ok cool. Kop's also been disengaged, which is a scumtell of his. He was scum in Delicious (on the other faction) and was disengaged until he had to be engaged.

In the 6-2-1 micro, Kop was very engaged as town.

I haven't even paid attention to Kop this game, which is why he's probably slipped under my radar...because of the low level of engagement from him.

VOTE: Kop

[TimHoward]

The point is that I expect both you and you (Frogger and BBT, gah this is hard in writing) to respond more to Alpha's fakeclaim, and everything that resulted from that. I see you both as players that are on top of everything that happens and have an opinion on everything and sometimes (this is mostly to BBT) push your opinion so hard it's getting annoying (as both alignments though, and I don't mean anything bad by it either) so to me it really stands out both of you hardly engaged with Alpha and barely (if at all) voiced an opinion on Alpha's fakeclaim and their behaviour the next Day.

I'm far far far far far more likely to let stuff slip by as town. Have you even read a scum game of mine?

Remember how I ignored BBT's questions completely in Numbers? Remember how I ignored MTD all game until the last day? I'm careless as town.

[TimHoward]

Also, you said it yourself that self-meta is scummy and now you're doing it yourselves.

OH MY GOD.

That was a JOKE I was making to Fire/Shiro/BBT. Hence the face.

I use self-meta EVERY game, and you know it. That's actually how I (partially) caught BBT in numbers. Because he called me out on it. I find that people who call me out on self-meta are more than 50% likely based off the number of times I've had it happen to be scum than not scum. So I actually use it as a scumhunting tool.

I wasn't actually calling WF out on the self-meta. I don't actually care that they self meta'd. It was a joke.

[TimHoward]

Also, wanderer, you've still never answered my question from D2

[TimHoward]

I don't feel like talking but with an imminent hammer I guess I should..

I've been keeping this quiet for a while because I always have a hard time reading BBT but I was scum with him recently and I sort of feel like I'm dealing with scum-BBT again.

What make you think this is scum!BBT again? Because I was in that game too, and we are town here, and this is nothing like how BBT played there. Can you please give concrete reasons as to what gives you this feel?

[TimHoward]

(TBF, wanderer's push on me feels like he's really trying to figure things out...making me feel like Kop is even more likely the scum on our wagon).

[TimHoward]

it's definitely not the basis of my scumread on both of you.

It seemed like on D2 it was.

Anyway, sigh. I'm not going to change your mind. Just remember to vote Kop tomorrow when we flip town.

[TimHoward]

I don't like the whole gambit from Alpha. If your going to make a gambit, you would do it with a role that is actually in the game (according to P1). But I don't like how KT has reacted to it, somethings not right and I can't detract whether that is a town reaction or a scum caught out reaction.

"I don't like my buddies' gambit, but actually I don't like KT more (tried and true scumtell) and will say that to throw even more suspicion on KT. But I won't vote KT because my buddy is...I'll just push KT so other people vote him".

[TimHoward]

I'm fine with KT being the lynch.
The self-vote and blowing up is either coming from newb/anti-town or newb/scum.
Regardless, I'll take that gamble D1.

Voted KT

I think there's, realistically, two options here.
Flow Alpha is scum playing in a really scummy way. Partners are either bussing or stalling out the wagon enough for other players to second-guess it. We've already got people calling it too scum to be scum or thinking it's a policy kind of lynch.
Flow Alpha is town playing in a really scummy way. Scum could be on/off the wagon since it's an easy wagon to push, but it's easy to push for a reason.

Regardless, nearly every player has weighed in on Flow Alpha. A Flow Alpha flip gives us tons of info and gets rid of Flow Alpha. I think we can all agree that's a good thing, right?

Didn't vote FA.

Most likely scum is Flow Alpha, Kop, Pano

Flow Alpha and Pano voted KT D1, so Kop felt the need to stay off the wagon (hence the ika night kill who was off the KT wagon to keep that mislynch pool as wide as possible, which includes me/BBT).

Then D2 Kop was the bus vote on FA when the lynch was inevitable. Pano didn't vote FA, but was stating ok with it. Pano's stances of "both lynches so far we're ok with because they could be town they could be scum" does not sit will with me.

[TimHoward]

Jesus Tex. You of all people?

We're town. I'd self hammer, but that would be anti-town.

You all should hold off until BBT has a chance to speak today.

[TimHoward]

First, they vote AJ, then they turn around and buddy him, asking which of TimHoward's other voters they should OMGUS. Smells like scum desperation to me.

And when we flip town, will you PLEASE PLEASE vote Kop?

FFS you just played Delicious Mafia 2 with scum kop as well.

[TimHoward]

If I was scum, I'd quickhammer the shit out of this so that it deprives town of information.

[TimHoward]

SOMEONE unvote so BBT can talk.

PLEASE.

[TimHoward]

First, they vote AJ, then they turn around and buddy him

Yes - because AJ's reaction came across as angry town. And AJ made a very good point that for scum leading the FA wagon to get cold feet would be unusual. And if AJ is town, we've got this game narrowed down very far.

Our death won't be in vein though. I swear to God I really do believe Pano and Kop are the team.

[TimHoward]

then they turn around and buddy him, asking which of TimHoward's other voters they should OMGUS. Smells like scum desperation to me.

Sure, it could seem like it.

I just want them to realize when we flip, that either Wanderer or Kop MUST BE scum if AJ really is town. Guaranteed. I'm 100% positive our early wagon was scum motivated. So I want AJ to pursue the correct person after we flip. It's called trying to work together.

[TimHoward]

FWIW, Wanderer's reluctance to give reasons BBT is scum other than "gut" and "instinct" feels very town to me. I think scum!Wanderer would probably try to make up/justify reasons.

[TimHoward]

FWIW, Wanderer's reluctance to give reasons BBT is scum other than "gut" and "instinct"

In relation to my question on wanderer about why does BBT seem like he's playing the same as Numbers Mafia.

[TimHoward]

SOMEONE unvote so BBT can talk.

PLEASE.

[TimHoward]

If anyone hammers without letting BBT speak this day phase, it's a scum claim.

I've pinged BBT and let him know we're at L-1. He's very busy with some new RL stuff.

[TimHoward]

If you flip town, I will certainly examine your wagon critically. No promises to specifically vote Kop, though.

Whatever. Kop is scum.

Pano is scum.

Bank on it.

[TimHoward]

If you flip town, I will certainly examine your wagon critically. No promises to specifically vote Kop, though.

Also - this is town.

IMPORTANT

- since we will be dead and we will flip town, I have no problem directing night actions. Any N3 cop absolutely MUST investigate one of the first three votes on our wagon. Preferably Kop or Wanderer as they were the first two on our wagon, and I'm sure it's scum motivated. We need to clear/guilty one of them.

[TimHoward]

BBT had a chance just after daystart to do a quick checkin of our hydra PT.

He said the Davsto night kill makes Pano or Anatole look bad. So keep that in mind too if we're quickhammered.

FWIW, I don't think Anatole would hard defend a buddy who was about to be lynched.

[TimHoward]

I might just take a Kop lynch today and see if we get a cop to clear out TimHoward. Would probably be an easier way about this.

I think this is town.

Scum would be motivated to just keep the vote on and hope for our inevitable lynch.

Also, if AJ was scum, it would be awfully weird to push a Kop lynch right now, whether Kop was scum or town. Especially given that as I feel like I'm getting lynched and I'm pushing for a Kop lynch and not an AJ lynch, that would mean AJ is avoiding suspicion if me/BBT did get mislynched, so a scum!AJ should be ok with our mislynch since I'm directing the suspicion in the wrong place in a scum!AJ scenario.

This basically conftowns AJ and thus White Fire for me.

[TimHoward]

Pano voted for Flow Alpha.

Shit, you're right. I might be wrong somewhere then.

Wanderer was off the FA wagon. I wonder if Wanderer unvoted me because they were nervous I had it down to you and them.

Hmmmmmmmm.

[TimHoward]

Fro99er head is V/LA until Thursday

[TimHoward]

Still on VLA till thurs but going to UNVOTE:

[TimHoward]

VOTE: Kop

Why?

[TimHoward]

Can I say that I'm not crazy about either of these wagons? I have mixed feelings on both;
TimHoward feels town, and I appreciate him not self-hammering under pressure. I liked his play throughout the last few days, although his interaction with Flow Alpha did strike me as a bit weird--dude feel off the wagon once it was deemed fine to do so. The AJ wagon was definitely a counter-wagon proposed by Flow Alpha, so I've been skeptical of White Fire and Tim for ditching the FA wagon to go for what was a really shitty wagon on AJ.
Kop's had a decent presence all game and I haven't seen anything that pings scum for me there yet, although Flow's Alpha's blowing up at the end of D1 did make me unsure of the slot when we headed into D2. iirc, FA's last post called me, Kop, and White Fire the most town people in the game. That bit of WIFOM bothered the shit out of me.
I was really suspicious of White Fire's handling of the wagon at the end of D2 and I'd be voting for White Fire right now if it wasn't for AJ's clear.
I've got a solid read on AJ. Out of all the people that got cold feet when it came to the FA wagon, AJ's pull-out made the most sense to me, and AJ's cop claim makes sense to me now.

Honestly, I think the person who looks the worst right now is Anatole.
He was verbally against the Flow Alpha wagon, calling it lynchbait.
He went for a Davsto wagon for awhile and now we know Davsto is town.
He led a White Fire wagon, who is now practically confirmed as town.
He made a weak push and vote for me early, and I am confirmed to myself as town.
He hasn't been present at all today except to call out Wanderer's defense of Tim Howard (which is a flashwagon, imo).
He's been generally lurky all game.
VOTE: Anatole Kuragin

Edited for Votecounter.

As I pointed out, one of Anatole or Pano is likely scum due to the Davsto kill. It strikes me as notable that Pano wants to paint AK as the scum.

[TimHoward]

He made a weak push and vote for me early, and I am confirmed to myself as town.

this comment in particular is literally retarded

Actually, this is a pretty strong scumtell.

[TimHoward]

I'd rather vote White Fire than TimHoward probably.

Fuck off. Don't tie me to you.

VOTE: Anatole

[TimHoward]

This is the worst case in mafia history, that's how I feel about it.

Nice rebuttal (not)

[TimHoward]

No, I just forgot that AJ had claimed cop.

scumclaim. Figured they'd push AJ, then realized AJ claimed cop when you pointed it out.

[TimHoward]

White Fire's play (including his recent vote) looks opportunistic from where I'm sitting but could just be misled town.

So you are saying AJ + WF is the scumteam?

BEcause the ONLY way WF is scum is if AJ is scum fake claiming cop.

[TimHoward]

UNVOTE:

Don't need TH today.

I read through the ISO, of Anatole, and there isn't a great deal there. I don't think he's ever been suspected yet, I think he would have been given a lot more hadn't Flow took over day one and two. It's kind of worrying that he has yet to attract any real attention because he just seems to pop up every now and again and disappears again, I even forgot he was a player in this game.

This post bothers me though. Starts with standard "read his iso" to show 'effort'. However, nothing of substance to draw from it. "Don't think he's been suspected yet" doesn't make for a decent reason or conclusion after reading his iso. So here we have Kop claiming to have done something yet effectively having done nothing at all.

The only acceptable conclusion is it's an attempt to sheep, but it's a postured attempt. No vote occurs, but he's still sending out signals he's willing to do so. The half ass waffle of "it's kind of worrying" is a superb amount of posturing. But it's at a position in the wagon were jumping in wouldn't have been so bad. I'm almost wanting to tie this as a scum Anatole/Kop team but to me Kop is more significant and Anatole's limited interaction w/Kop isn't really a tell when he's limited interaction with everyone outside Davesto.

VOTE: Kop

If you were town, wouldn't you vote Anatole for voting your confirmed townie?

[TimHoward]

Anatole, who do you think we should lynch?

Kop or Pano I guess.

says the guy voting WF

[TimHoward]

It's WIFOM even if those are facts because you are saying that those facts make it likely I am scum despite those facts typically representing townies in games of mafia as well.

Where have I heard this before?

Oh.

Yeah.

Your entire argument for him being town is WIFOM

[TimHoward]

I don't have much to add, I think Kop is probably mislynch bait and Anatole is the way to go.

[TimHoward]

We don't have much time left

never change

[TimHoward]

If you're townie and you know it vote AK
If you're townie and you know it vote AK
If you're townie and you know it
and you really want to show it
If you're townie and you know it vote AK

[TimHoward]

AJ WHY AREN'T YOU VOTING ANATOLE? THEY ARE SUSPECTING/VOTING WHITE FIRE WHICH SHOULD MAKE NO SENSE IF YOU CLEARED THEM AS TOWN

[TimHoward]

(all this frog, obv)

[TimHoward]

I'll pick this post up in hydra tonight. Back from V/LA and will catch up tonight.

I <3 Shiro though.

Seriously though, is Shrio ok? Why the low inactivity?

*low activity

First one on purpose. Second two I THOUGHT I WAS STILL IN HYDRA.

[TimHoward]

Tex I forgive you for being wrong. You're still awesome.

[TimHoward]

No, I would have buddied you a lot sooner.

Just me pointing out you're wrong but I still love you and don't blame you for being wrong. We haven't played our best.

[TimHoward]

Anatole does look scummy, but I'm worried by the enthusiasm with which TimHoward is approaching his wagon. I still think TimHoward is likely scum.

FWIW I would be QUITE happy to make it a 1v1 for me and Anatole.

[TimHoward]

@Wanderer...I can't tell you where you went wrong with the Kop read, becuase I have no clue. I felt like either you or Kop were scum because we're town and our wagon felt scum motivated. Yet Anatole has given me lots of reason to scum read them.

100% honest, I feel like a plausible scum team is Anatole and AJ. I also feel like either Kop or Wanderer is scum for the quick/easy wagon. I'm just not sure what. It's the confusion/paranoia in me.

One thing I do know...there are 9 of us left. I have 2 super strong town reads in WF and Tex. So for me this is 2 scum left in 6 players:

Pano
Davesaz
Wanderer
Kop
Anatole
AJ

And honestly I could see it being any of those six. I fucking wish I knew which of you six, but I don't. I want you six to talk about each other, and to talk about me. If we're the lynch, we're the lynch. Just make sure to let us claim before we're lynched.

[TimHoward]

What about dying words from town?

[TimHoward]

*gets the popcorn out*

[TimHoward]

BBT you're smarter than you're acting

white fire probably isn't idk

BBT hasn't been posting at all this day phase.

[TimHoward]

TimHoward asserts that voting for him is scummy as he "is confirmed to himself as town." I called this retarded. Aside from the poor choice of word on my part, this reasoning is completely moronic.

No, the "retarded" part is a very strong scumtell. I and someone else on this site who I shall not name have been keeping tabs on this tell. When that word is used, it comes from scum over 75% of the time.

[TimHoward]

Why would that be notable because I voted for a townie? You're doing the same thing, and poorly. This is god awful amateur NKA.

BBT was the one who pointed me to that in our hydra PT.

I'll let him know what you think.

[TimHoward]

Also that theory is ridiculous.

It's not a theory.

It's fact that we have been keeping tabs on it and it is much much much more likely to come from scum.

[TimHoward]

What does this do for the town? You just wanted to preemptively make a case on whichever town player hammered him while trying to look like a townie making a constructive comment by saying something obvious.

What does me not quickhammering myself do for town?

Uh let's see.

It prevents a town player lynchng himself.
It gives town more time to talk.
It helps draw out reads and reactions like yours.

[TimHoward]

elementary vote count analysis,

you're funny

Keep trying to discredit me.

[TimHoward]

VOTE: Anatole

AJ should be highly sus of Anatole too for wanting to push WF despite WF being cleared as town by AJ

[TimHoward]

You quoted my 411 which was me talking about hammering myself.

[TimHoward]

Post 411: I was at L-1, I was saying if I was scum I'd quickhammer myself so town didn't get a chance to talk. Several people hadn't yet posted this day phase at that point in time.

[TimHoward]

Me not quickhammeringwuickhammering myself when I'm town is decidedly pro-town.

[TimHoward]

Not quickhammering whether I'm scum or town is decidedly pro-town.

[TimHoward]

Davesaz is probably scum

[TimHoward]

Yes. Interesting conversation. Nobody interested in lynching kop for tripping all over himself to bus?

Like, you really came here just to say this?

God if I said that Anatole would be ripping me a new one.

[TimHoward]

BTW Shiro thinks Anatole ally is Kop, though I think it might be Davesaz

Tell Shiro Froggy thinks you are right.


AJ is also possible for not suspecting Anatole after Anatole thought you were scum despite a clear from AJ

[TimHoward]

I haven't posted/read since page 12.

Someone catch me up. 3 joint leading wagons look exciting, though I'm wondering why one hasn't formed on davesaz?

~BBT

[TimHoward]

Is anyone town reading Davesaz?

~BBT

[TimHoward]

Will catch up this afternoon. Crazy weekend.

-Frog

[TimHoward]

Yes. Kop originally stated that he never put Flow Alpha to L-1. I posted where he voted for flow alpha and the next post where he explicitly stated that vote was L-1.

Maybe I'm missing something here but why exactly is that scummy?

~BBT

[TimHoward]

Anatole.

If you're scum reading him.

~BBT

[TimHoward]

A cop should investigate one of us or Kop tonight, if Anatole gets lynched and flips town.

[TimHoward]

Because if us, Anatole, and Kop were all town, scum would have likely pushed through a mislynch by now.

[TimHoward]

And if Anatole flips town and both us and Kop are alive tomorrow votes should only be on us or Kop.

[TimHoward]

I was a doctor in some night that already past.

gg

Which night, who did you protect, and why?

[TimHoward]

Anatole is lying but whatever.

Why the fuck would anatole try to save us? Especially after I quickhammered KT.

Kop makes a perfect point that for Anatole now to point out they saved themselves makes no sense knowing they tried to save us. It's a backtrack and cover up.

Someone vote Anatole and get this day over with.

[TimHoward]

Even though you tried, you would have been told, and you would have said that first time round, you wouldn't need to correct yourself after already knowing the information.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

[TimHoward]

VOTE: Anatole
VOTE: Anatole
VOTE: Anatole
VOTE: Anatole
VOTE: Anatole

FOR INFORMATION!

[TimHoward]

Love the personal attacks.

Thanks.

[TimHoward]

it shows how dumb fro99er is

Says the person who claims they tried to protect me after claiming to have self-protected...

[TimHoward]

you're gonna feel silly when I flip homie

Not really. It's a game. If I'm wrong here, it's not the first time.

[TimHoward]

A cop should investigate one of us or Kop tonight, if Anatole gets lynched and flips town.

[TimHoward]

no idea how we turned that around from L-1 but I fucking told you our wagon was scum motivated.

Wanderer flipped town so Kop is probably scum because they were the first two to vote is yesterday. Us, Anatole, Kop wagons at this stage means scum probably piled on us/Anatole.

[TimHoward]

VOTE: Kop

[TimHoward]

(Frog)

[TimHoward]

Everyone should vote Kop and end this day

[TimHoward]

I'm here.

Cool story bro

[TimHoward]

Claim N4 Doctor

We protected White Fire last night.

-Frog

[TimHoward]

Double confirming Tim's innocence because we saved him ^_^

LOL WE SAVED YOU!!!

[TimHoward]

my gut is telling me AJ is the scum.

That's where I'm at...but I also need a reread.

It's possible it's Pano is clearing davesaz too as Pano!scum, but IDK that's pretty risky to narrow the pool down to themselves, texcat, and AJ (but it's all WIFOM). Basically WF, davesaz and us are conftown, so that's good. We have a lynchpool of three...the cop clears.

I'm still most suspicious of AJ for not suspecting Anatole when Anatole was scumreading White Fire after White Fire was cleared by AJ.

[TimHoward]

Gonna analyze wagons later as well...

[TimHoward]

Reason being that it makes sense for text to kill the person they innoed so they don't have to worry about interactions.

Could say the same of AJ about you...so.....

I think if we lynch AJ/Tex we win. Otherwise Pano is making an incredible gambit.

[TimHoward]

Nah, you're not even making sense now.

it went from a pool of 4 (you, Pano, davesaz, AJ) to a pool of 3 (you, Pano, AJ).

[TimHoward]

I would be looking to lynch in the unknown pool of Pano and Davesaz

But it's not about you. It's about everyone in this game, and the rest of us only knew that our slot and white fire were clear, including Pano. It's very easy to see how scum could make up a cop clear on someone.

[TimHoward]

After rereading day two and the interactions with Flow Alpha, I think Panopticon has to be the scum.

VOTE: Panopticon

Explain.

[TimHoward]

Never mind.

I see it

VOTE: Panopticon

[TimHoward]

UNVOTE:

AJ why Pano over Tex?

[TimHoward]

Explain.

Because you are one of the three on the hot seat, so I'm gonna need more than that.

[TimHoward]

You've got so much shit clogged up that it's starting to leak out of your mouth.

Can we please not resort to saying immature stuff like this?

It's pointless, low, and disgusting.

[TimHoward]

VOTE: Panopticon

[TimHoward]

Ok. If they flip town, Pano tomorrow.

VOTE: Texcat

[TimHoward]

FWIW I think Tex is town

[TimHoward]

FWIW I think Tex is town

Then don't play this game. Pano is going to watch this lynch flip town and then immediately gun for me. He's the one showing the most shakiness in his reads here to allow him to posture on back to another lynch.

I'll ply whatever game I want TYVM.

You need to chillax. White Fire encouraged me to vote Tex, not Pano. I'm lynching Pano tomorrow.

[TimHoward]

Also, dude, never tell another player to stop playing the game.
That's, like, the one single thing we're all here to do.

[TimHoward]

Not really. You meant I shouldn't play if I'm going to vote for someone I think is town.

IDGAF because it doesn't matter. I am voting for my townread. Then we're voting actual scum (Pano) tomorrow.l

[TimHoward]

VOTE: TimHoward

VOTE: Panopticon

[TimHoward]

We won't have to take it to two days because Tex is scum. Let's just lynch scum. :/

Scumposting.