Open 621 (C9++): The ZAR SHOW S1 Holiday Special - OVER!

[Kmd4390]

/confirm

[Kmd4390]

Vote roflcopter

Vote Lowell

Long time no see.

Lowell, BBT would do all of that as scum too.

[Kmd4390]

Two votes?

Yeah dude. Been a long time since I played with either. I couldn't leave one out.

@kmd- so, BBT isn't town then? What you sayin' here?

You aren't going to get a valid read on BBT in RVS. He's very good scum and knows what people town read. He's null right now.

In other news, a serious vote:

Unvote, Vote acryon

I also have a super secret maybe scum read but I wanna see what happens in the 17 hours before I can check this again so I'll let that one develop a little before I call it out.

[Kmd4390]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kmd
super secret maybe scum read???

Yep.

KMD, was that "super secret scumread" a joke too? 

Nope.

Acryon, are you just gonna agree and sheep all game or is that an early Day 1 thing?

Shadow gets town points for noticing the same thing I did.

So you want me to town it up for yall or am I playing my normal scummy game?

Town it up if you are town. Be scummy if you are scum. Like if you are scum, keep buddying people like you have with Yos and BBT already

Lowell, your shadow vote makes me feel ignored. Why is try hard scum anyway?

Guess I'll reveal. Alwaysinnocent was my other scum read. Hard to explain, but he gives off a basic "fitting in" feel rather than a "looking for scum" one. I know it's early but that's when we all have Role PMs freshest in our mind.

Ok, bed time for me. Be back in the afternoon.

[Kmd4390]

Acryon, I said that was town points for shadow because I know two things. One, I'm looking for scum. Two, shadow is thinking along the same lines as me. If I put two and two together, there is a good chance shadow is looking for scum which would make her likely town.

Lowell, I disagree with you but I understand what you are trying to say. Basically what roflcopter said, but I needed that answer from you to get there.

Lol. Yeah, well, you can't do much scumhunting yet in this stage. I have a few town-leans: shaddowz and Lowell, but you can't seriously expect to really be able to hunt scum now. 

I strongly disagree, but time will tell if it's a playstyle difference. For what it's worth, your casual carefree response has me doubting myself already.

Tex, nah my reasons were the same as Shadows.

Yos, I find it interesting that Shadow didn't make your "I like something" list after your explanation for it. Your answer that shadow is null seems to imply you aren't aware that shadow has done a lot, yet people are accusing him of try-hard. I'm curious if I'm misreading you cpmpletely or if there is something causing this.

Anen, just because a tell is old doesn't mean it's outdated. I don't think Yos was being as serious as I was though.

I admit I only skimmed after Anen's post. Will read it fully when I have time. That will be tomorrow.

[Kmd4390]

Page 7? Sorry, no motivation to read that much before bed. I'll do it when I wake up

[Kmd4390]

Apparently my family decided we are celebrating Christmas tonight so I'm buying gifts and heading over. Sorry I'm behind, but I'll come back tonight.

[Kmd4390]

I like you Anen. Regarding me being a wagon-hopper, I tend to switch up my style based on what the town seems to need, especially D1. Take that with a grain of salt of course.

Can you explain why town needed those votes?

It was obvious that I was poking a bit of fun. I am partly doing this to see how other people react. I think I am allowed to do this this early in the game. It is part of the transition from RVS to scumhunting.

This feels very "I didn't screw up already, did I?". I also agree with Kop's assessment that AlwaysInnocent has been trying to look busy up to this point. Also interesting is that AlwaysInnocent took a five line Kop post as aggression when he made a few points but didn't vote.

I like Kop and Lowell so far. Kop might just be because I agree with his playstyle/theory so I'll try not to let that bias influence me too much. Actually, I'm liking Anen too, although I don't see any pigeons yet...

So, was dat een grapje, Yos? 

What?

Yos, have you played with Lucky before?

Not a fan of Lucky intentionally not playing, obviously. I'd be up for a wagon on him I think.

AlwaysInnocent, what do you mean when you say I "gave up on" you? I haven't decided you are definitely scum yet. I'm still trying to work that out. No reads are set in stone for me at this point.

Really, there was a lot more to the list then that. I can go into more detail if people really want, although I wasn't really planning to make a whole production of it this early, especally since this early my reads are likely to change before I finish making this post.

Yeah, I'd still like my question answered.

AlwaysInnocent seems too worried about roflcopter's read on him. Reminds me of when he called Kop aggressive. Bad vibes.

Can you tell me what the purpose of this post was Kmd? I feel like this post is made on the assumption that Lowell is town? If so, where has that read come from?

I mean, I am townreading Lowell but I was more pointing out that I feel he's wrong about your play. Basically, my focus there was on you, not him. He could be town who is wrong or scum making a bad point. Either way, I saw info that I disagree with and stated as much.

Huh? I can see it with Yos but I don't see where ABR is buddying me.

His back and forth with you after your RVS vote on him gave me that vibe.

I have to charge my phone before I read pages 7 and 8. Acryon, AlwaysInnocent, and Lucky are my top picks for scum right now. ABR would be on that list, but I always scum read him so I don't even know what is alignment indicitive for him anymore. I could probably be sold on Yos too but meh. Everyone else town or null so far. I feel like I should mention that my town read on shadow has weakened, but not to the point of being a scum read.

[Kmd4390]

What took you so long to vote Lucky? Why wait for somebody else to do it first?

Um. What? I was already considering him, by looking at the activity overview. Previously I voted Kop for his lack of contributions, which forced him out of his shell. Furthermore, Lucky said that he was going to take a backseat in the game, which I don't like. Being on a wagon greater than size 1 usually helps to push players to contribute more.

Second time you have done this in a short space of time. You seem to latch onto other people's thoughts/opinions whilst trying to make them look like your own. (The Lucky vote and now this sudden suspicion of Kmd which was previously nowhere to be found.)

Not really. I always find it at least a little strange when someone townreads me so early in the game. I didn't pay too much attention to it yet, since I prefer to see more posts before I actually start to seriously suspect someone. It is because of the ridiculous idea that KMD and me are scum buddies (based on what?) that I felt it was necessary to say something about KMD.

Also, you do know that Mafia is a social game, right? People influence each other and create wagons.

By the way, how can you be convinced by an empty one-liner about two players being scum buddies this early in the game? How does that make someone town?

Unvote, Vote AlwaysInnocent

^roflcopter, help me bus my buddy. Seriously, this post reeks:
1) As far as I can tell, AlwaysInnocent's biggest scumtell that is vote worthy is lurking, people who scumread him are scummy, and people who townread him are weird.
2) His feeling the need to say something about me feels like "caught for the wrong reasons". Although I understand if people who don't have my Role PM take it as a connection between us as well.
3) He is taking roflcopter so seriously. Like he has something to hide.

He threatened to shoot me this early if he were a vigilante, which is just reckless and bad play (if it was a serious and not just to threaten me).

No it's not.

kmd - Are you trying to buddy me in continuing to ask Yos about my placement on their list? If not, what are you trying to get out of it?

Nope. I'm trying to figure out if you are his scumbuddy if one of you flips scum later. At first, it seems like he could try sneaking you in there, if anything. But if he already had a scumbuddy on the list, maybe he wants to leave one off. Basically, you started the game similarly to those on his list and him not including you seemed off. It's nothing I'm putting much stock into now (except seeing if Yos has a genuine read on you and the rest of his list), but it's info I want in the thread for later in the game when we have flips.

Tex, in the first few pages, it helps to draw reactions out of people and make them more readable. For example, you jumping on my secret read looks town. You want more info. You aren't going "this looks bad lol, vote" and walking away. You also admitted you misread something. You look like town trying to find motivations and reasoning rather than scum skating by.

Oh, Rofl is voting AlwaysInnocent already? Thought he was still on me. *shrug*

Anen, have you played with scumABR or just townABR?

As for Day1 speculations, here's my opinion:

Best post in thread so far.

AlwaysInnocent's lurker hunt has easily gone to the point of being too calculated.

[Kmd4390]

*shrug*

I dunno. I just thought that for someone who came out of the gate posting real points like the majority of those on your list, it would be enough to make it. Or if not, maybe a specific reason why not. Just throwing out "null" felt off and I was hoping for a little more, but it doesn't look like there is more so I don't think this discussion is going to go anywhere, unfortunately.

[Kmd4390]

AlwaysInnocent seems too worried about roflcopter's read on him.

No. I am not worried about his read. I am worried about his reckless call for other people to lynch me, being overconfident that I am scum (because he mistakenly believes that only scum will react in a certain way to his posts). That is what concerns (and annoys) me.

Same thing.

Acryon, so those votes were what town needed according to your answer, but when asked to elaborate that's no longer the case or...? Because if not, why say itthe first time? I asked initially because it had the feel of being made up on the spot rather than a description of what you were thinking at the time and this answer from you solidifies my thought on that.

I'm finding it hard to believe Yos thinks not doing anything is optimal scum play, but I don't see the benefit of him lying about that either so... iunno... 215 is pretty bad though.

AlwaysInnocent, why would Yos choose to buddy you specifically with a handful of older and more influential players in the game?

[Kmd4390]

No. That is absolutely not the same thing.

Uh huh.

Yos, even then I'm having trouble seeing how scum can take control of the game by not being the more aggressive players. Can you elaborate why on Page 10 with no flips yet and a wagon on you, you feel you are "playing well"? And why you think rofl and myself are "controversial"?

[Kmd4390]

I don't think I can remember ever actually seeing in-thread coaching happen.

Oh and Merry Christmas everyone

[Kmd4390]

Scum don't have to "take control of the game". If the loudest and most agressive players are town and they all fight each other, the scum can just stay out of the way and let them fight

*shrug*. I guess. Just a personality difference, probably. I prefer for my fate to be in my own hands.

I'm pretty happy with my reads, even as early as page 4 I think I correctly picked out several town players. And I think my style has been very effective at getting people to move past the RVS and start playing. I find it incredibly frustrating that there's a wagon on me for no real reason when i feel like my play has been so on point, and so effective, and so obviously pro-town.

I'm not sure how you can know if your reads are good or not without any flips. But the rest of this post looks town to me. The reason is you made that commentabout playing well unprompted and as town I can see you believing everything you say here. As scum, I can't see any reason you'd think you've played well but are being wagoned regardless. I guess you could think you've done a good job of looking town, but your explanation makes more sense than that. I won't be joining this wagon soon.

ABR, what is scummy about Lowell's play so far?

[Kmd4390]

If BBT is indeed town, then it is likely that Yosarian is scum.

You seem to be scumreading Yos anyway. Why does BBT being town make Yos scum?

Hm. Not sure why I thought Lowell was fence-town. After having re-read his ISO, he seems to be more of a lurker than I thought. I am placing him as fence-scum for now.

^Guys, remember what I said about AlwaysInnocent's lurker hunt getting to the point of being too calculated. Well, now a guy whose posts he liked is scum for lurking. No one can honestly think the game is as simple as those who post are town and those who don't are scum.

I'm an easy target

This is, and always has been, a copout. Anyone who is widely seen as scummy is an "easy target". Caught scum is just as easy a target as mislynch bait.

What do you think about Yos reading those exact same posts as aggression and using that as a reason to town read ABR?

He's probably reading it in a different tone than I am. I see someone going "hey we played a game together and now we're both here, cool". Maybe Yos saw more seriousness? I dunno. That's my best guess, but it definitely didn't come off as aggressive to me. I also don't think aggression is a town tell though, so meh.

Isn't it clear that there is a difference between "I'm going to play a little fast and loose with my play and votes early on since it seems like this group will react to it" and deciding on each vote "This is what town needs in this moment". I will certainly prescribe to the former, but the latter is a bit too calculated for even me. Feel free to re-read my last post if you want further clarification here.

Uhhhh. You were the one who said you do what you think town needs when you were asked about those votes. I asked why and you suddenly had nothing. To be perfectly honest, I'm having trouble following this (it's 8am and I just got out of work after getting there at 2pm) but it seems like you're all over the place on it and not talking about the same thing I'm trying to talk about.

[Kmd4390]

You people always post while I'm working or sleeping. I'll catch up tonight.

[Kmd4390]

Since BBT is eager to lynch Yosarian, it seems.

But how does that make Yos scum if BBT is town? That was your original statement. Is BBT guaranteed to be right if he is town?

Right. No one thinks that. Not even me. It is too simple, indeed

Then why the lurker hunt if you don't think the lurkers are scum?

how about you stop trying to deflect things back to kmd?

I'm actually curious where that scumread went. You never explained it, yet continued to seem to have it, and now you're backing off of it? Why? It doesn't feel natural to me...

What I was trying to get at is that I think Yos' reasons for town reading ABR are BS. I think it's an early read to try and pocket ABR (and I think it's working). I don't think scum!Yos reads scum!ABR like that, I think he would try and flesh out the read a little more. I think this is scum!Yos trying to pocket town!ABR and nullify a potential threat to him. The fact he stated that ABR could easily manipulate the meta but still called him town felt all kinds of wrong to me as well.

Hmm. I could actually see that. And ABR is tunnely so getting on his good side is definitely beneficial for scum. That's entirely possible. What do you think about my response though? That he may have read it in a different tone? Do you think that's possible or are you pretty convinced your theory is accurate?

Oh please. Have you ever played with Albert? He's not the type to trust you just because you call him town.

Depends on how you do it...

That's a totally nonesensical statement. There is never a time in a mafia game you should not be sharing your reads. I can't even imagine how you could claim otherwise.

Interesting. I did this earlier and you said I was one of your two strongest townreads after I'd done it.

[Kmd4390]

Anen, I think you're town and I think Always is scum so seeing you on the wagon is cool and all, but there's no way the "bus" thing was a slip. It was clearly a joke. Could he still be scum with Yos? Sure. But not for that reason.

BBT, in hindsight I actually guess you're right. I went back and read it as if ABR had followed with "I'm being serious" and I still don't see aggression. If anything, it would be defensive. Did I miss where Yos explained this or has he not done so yet?

No, I'm bored of going around in circles with you and having to deal with your flat out false statements/accusations.

I'll just wait for you to eat rope and then gloat.

I actually don't care for this. I was interested in the response.

Yos, do you really think that BBT would be so concerned that you listed his whole team as scum on Page 4 that he'd push your lynch over it? You said yourself that town's reads change all the time. Why wouldn't he just ride it out until you change your mind on some things?

Is it hard to leave the thread when you're scum and under pressure?

Always have that feeling that you need to defend yourself in case you get lynched while you're away?

I don't think that's unique to scum. Getting lynched as town sucks too.

 Because logic always triumphs over bullshit.

If only that were true.

For those wondering who I side with on Yos vs BBT, I'm honestly not sure. I usually decide these things quickly, but both are good players so it's hard. Yes, Yos

sounds

more logical but his logic feels like it has holes and might be insincere. BBT is also playing to his scum meta, but his scum meta is to look town as fuck so that's pretty shitty to base a case on. I don't like BBT not replying to Yos' case but the case wasn't that great to begin with. I know this sucks, but I could go either way on both players.

Yos, can you point me to why you thought ABR was being aggressive towards BBT?

[Kmd4390]

I don't think you're giving BBT enough credit. I can't see him freaking out over something so small. He's either town who believes you are scum or he's scum and thinks he can get you lynched today. If he's scum, he's not scared of you.

it wasn't based on much, but i can explain it again if you want

No rush. I'm busy too so I understand

[Kmd4390]

ROFL, for the record I'm not town reading yos and bbt. I'm trying to sort them. Can you tell me why you think I'm bussing always innocent? I'm wondering if you honestly believe that.

Yos that answer doesn't satisfy me because I don't understand why you used the word aggressive initially if its not what you meant.

Mod, I'm gonna have to go vla until at least Wednesday. My phone broke and this tablet thing is weird and hard to use but I'm working the next two days for 16 hours each day so I'm not sure when or how to get a new phone or if it will even be any good for internet. Sorry I didn't bold. Not sure where those bracket things for bbcode are with this damn thing. Honestly I may be phoneless until March.

[Kmd4390]

Ehhhhh OK I guess. Picking fights sounds like aggressive but I guess it's not a huge deal

[Kmd4390]

Anen anyone could still be scum with anyone.yos\always is possible as is any other pairing\trio. On yos sounding logical, the way he's presenting his arguments just comes off that way. Read the rest of that point though. If he isn't being sincere, he may just be trying to sound logical. Can you show me a game where bbt played this way as town? I feel like I remember him being less of a presence as town but maybe I'm wrong.

I reeeeeeally don't like alwaysiñnocent using the vi card. He seems like a pretty smart dude. Or his invite of yos right after anen calls yos the easy target, although his vote sucked to begin with so meh. Just the timing feels shitty.

Acryon, nope I don't see the difference.

Roflndid you ever answer my question? I seem to have missed it if so.

[Kmd4390]

Prod dodge. Back tonight

[Kmd4390]

Good news. No more "n"s where spaces should be and I can bold again. With no knowledge of technology but help from an unlikely source, I fixed my own phone and can play mafia for real again. Catching up...

 i said the scummy stuff you were spewing fence sitting about them made me want to town read both of them

Bad logic. This only works after someone flips scum. Because I know myself to be town, I know you have baseless reads on two players if this is legitimately your read. I don't think it is though. I think you're just making a point. And I hope that's the case because if not, yikes.

you're trying to get me to say something you can attack. "honestly."

*shrug*. I'm actually leaning towards you being town right now.

I don't think BBT's total focus on Yos is pro-town. Yos, at least, is commenting on others.

^This felt weird to me because BBT talked about other people a lot, but it's an accurate statement if you only look at his posts from Sunday. Tex, what do you think of BBT's full ISO?

All of the scum? Does this mean you are town reading the rest of us?

I don't like this. Feels too "oh, you're town reading me? Right? I hope so."

I simply can't imagine a scum asking that. (Although I haven't got the slightest idea what "proxy a vote" means.)

How can you come to the conclusion that scum wouldn't ask that without knowing what it means?

Kop, similar question as the one to Anen. How could you conclude that town or scum could proxy a vote without knowing what it meant?

[Kmd4390]

Not really satisfied with Kop and Anen's answer about proxy votes, but both said the same thing so I guess I'll drop it. Speaking of those two, I agree with Kop on lurkers. They tend to get lynched. Maybe not Day 1. But Day 2-4 lynches tend to contain at least one lurker lynch.

ABR's reaction to Yos vs BBT is actually town as fuck.

I agree that BBT's early game was not so much of a tunnel.

Is that your only opinion of his early game?

[Kmd4390]

It's not terrible if you are scum

[Kmd4390]

From your PoV, there should be no "if" about it if you are town

[Kmd4390]

I'm not gonna post again this year after this post. Sorry.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, I'm with Yos on the most recent Yos/BBT exchange. BBT calling Yos' posts an attempt to discredit feels ridiculously manipulative. I like Yos' post 531 and think BBT should do that. It should be easy if he's so sure Yos is scum. If BBT is town though, I don't like Tex's sheep vote.

[Kmd4390]

Lowell, any idea what triggered that assumption?

[Kmd4390]

It is.

[Kmd4390]

I did:

What took you so long to vote Lucky? Why wait for somebody else to do it first?

Um. What? I was already considering him, by looking at the activity overview. Previously I voted Kop for his lack of contributions, which forced him out of his shell. Furthermore, Lucky said that he was going to take a backseat in the game, which I don't like. Being on a wagon greater than size 1 usually helps to push players to contribute more.

Second time you have done this in a short space of time. You seem to latch onto other people's thoughts/opinions whilst trying to make them look like your own. (The Lucky vote and now this sudden suspicion of Kmd which was previously nowhere to be found.)

Not really. I always find it at least a little strange when someone townreads me so early in the game. I didn't pay too much attention to it yet, since I prefer to see more posts before I actually start to seriously suspect someone. It is because of the ridiculous idea that KMD and me are scum buddies (based on what?) that I felt it was necessary to say something about KMD.

Also, you do know that Mafia is a social game, right? People influence each other and create wagons.

By the way, how can you be convinced by an empty one-liner about two players being scum buddies this early in the game? How does that make someone town?

Unvote, Vote AlwaysInnocent

^roflcopter, help me bus my buddy. Seriously, this post reeks:
1) As far as I can tell, AlwaysInnocent's biggest scumtell that is vote worthy is lurking, people who scumread him are scummy, and people who townread him are weird.
2) His feeling the need to say something about me feels like "caught for the wrong reasons". Although I understand if people who don't have my Role PM take it as a connection between us as well.
3) He is taking roflcopter so seriously. Like he has something to hide.

He threatened to shoot me this early if he were a vigilante, which is just reckless and bad play (if it was a serious and not just to threaten me).

No it's not.

kmd - Are you trying to buddy me in continuing to ask Yos about my placement on their list? If not, what are you trying to get out of it?

Nope. I'm trying to figure out if you are his scumbuddy if one of you flips scum later. At first, it seems like he could try sneaking you in there, if anything. But if he already had a scumbuddy on the list, maybe he wants to leave one off. Basically, you started the game similarly to those on his list and him not including you seemed off. It's nothing I'm putting much stock into now (except seeing if Yos has a genuine read on you and the rest of his list), but it's info I want in the thread for later in the game when we have flips.

Tex, in the first few pages, it helps to draw reactions out of people and make them more readable. For example, you jumping on my secret read looks town. You want more info. You aren't going "this looks bad lol, vote" and walking away. You also admitted you misread something. You look like town trying to find motivations and reasoning rather than scum skating by.

Oh, Rofl is voting AlwaysInnocent already? Thought he was still on me. *shrug*

Anen, have you played with scumABR or just townABR?

As for Day1 speculations, here's my opinion:

Best post in thread so far.

AlwaysInnocent's lurker hunt has easily gone to the point of being too calculated.

[Kmd4390]

Must be wrong. I made that vote on like Page 2.

~.I have verified and noticed, and I carried the correction through all remaining VCs. I apologize for the mistake, but I'm not running in coffee anymore, sadly . Please make sure you keep your votes in the bottom if you are making a long wall post or separated from the large body of text. ~~~. Zar

[Kmd4390]

BBT, I don't remember you being this tunnely...

Lowell, I asked because the only thing that makes sense is a bad assumption that a good player posting a lot of words must be town, but I think you're too good for that. The thing that makes sense is scum not thinking they can get him lynched so they write him off as town until there is a case on him and if no case pops up, NKs exist. I've townread you up to this point, so the confirmation bias in me wants to be convinced that's wrong, but idk.

[Kmd4390]

I'll be in a kind of mini

V/LA until Tuesday

Might be able to keep up, but I'm working the next 3 days. Two of those are 16 hours and the one that isn't might be anyway. After that I'm on vacation though.

[Kmd4390]

Was gonna check in on my V/LA, but looks like I only missed 4 posts. Wow.

[Kmd4390]

Prod dodge. Probably won't post content today or tomorrow.

[Kmd4390]

Prod dodge. Maybe back tonight.

[Kmd4390]

If AI lives to see tomorrow I'll eat my bunny ears.

This almost got me to unvote.

[Kmd4390]

By the way, I find it extremely hard to read BBT. He seems scummy at times, but I feel that if he really is scum, he won't give himself away so easily. It will be hard to pin him down on something.

Bad logic. If people knew they were going to be wagoned for something, they probably wouldn't do those things as either town or scum. You are assuming BBT knew he'd be one of the top Day 1 lynch choices in this game. This logic would also basically mean that all scummy play comes from town.

Fuck this shit.

VOTE: BBT

Saw that coming

I agree with both of these. Tex in general seems to be playing very carefully, but I'm pretty sure I've scum read her in every game we've been in together so I'm trying to make sure it's not just a playstyle thing I'm not liking.

I actually correctly read tex as obvtown in our only game together. Not seeing it here.

[Kmd4390]

Not a townslip. He's right...

[Kmd4390]

Not a townslip. He's right...

He's not right. As town, you essentially consider there to be a possible 4 opposing players, not 3.

He clearly meant mafia. And by your logic, it could be a SK slip as much as a town slip.

But he's town. I mean come on, HE IS ARGUING WITH MY STATEMENT ABOUT HIM BEING TOWN when he is on the brink of being lynched.

Because you are arguing he doesn't understand something that he does understand.

He thought Acryon had posted I'd townslipped...

So?

[Kmd4390]

I personally don't consider SK until there is an extra kill.

Why would town be less likely to consider SK than town anyway? Especially if there are only two of them? If anything, maybe he just slipped knowledge of a two man scum team. I think it's more likely he was actually going by the setup though and you are assuming he wasn't paying attention to it which is why this slip business is as dumb as 95% of all slip talk in mafia games.

Ironically though:

Okay. Acryon is probably town. Why waste such an easy lynch if he was Mafia?

^this is probably true if Always is town.

[Kmd4390]

I'm buying AI as town based on the last three pages.

And to prove I can flip-flop with the best of them, I'm also all-in on ABR's case on BBT. No one iso me, it's embarrassing.

UNVOTE: AI
VOTE: BBT

You agree with the slip BS or something else?

[Kmd4390]

I'm buying AI as town based on the last three pages.

And to prove I can flip-flop with the best of them, I'm also all-in on ABR's case on BBT. No one iso me, it's embarrassing.

UNVOTE: AI
VOTE: BBT

You agree with the slip BS or something else?

I'm buying ABR's overall logic, which I paraphrase as: jump in early, look town, tunnel on one person who isn't a major lynch target, sit back and profit.

I was asking about Always, not BBT.

Acryon, or he meant exactly what he said which is that there are at most three mafia. And I'd react the same way if someone's town case on me relied on me not paying attention when I was whether I was town or scum because that's just frustrating. This whole thing is completely null. Where is rofl when you need him...

[Kmd4390]

I'm buying AI as town based on the last three pages.

And to prove I can flip-flop with the best of them, I'm also all-in on ABR's case on BBT. No one iso me, it's embarrassing.

UNVOTE: AI
VOTE: BBT

You agree with the slip BS or something else?

I'm buying ABR's overall logic, which I paraphrase as: jump in early, look town, tunnel on one person who isn't a major lynch target, sit back and profit.

I was asking about Always, not BBT.

Acryon, or he meant exactly what he said which is that there are at most three mafia. And I'd react the same way if someone's town case on me relied on me not paying attention when I was whether I was town or scum because that's just frustrating. This whole thing is completely null. Where is rofl when you need him...

Yeah because rofl is going to shed some light on this...

And sorry you're just wrong here. If you are town in a game where there are up to 4 people you want dead, why would you set a parameter of 3? It doesn't make sense.

Because of his view on SK and the fact that the setup allows for 3 mafia at most.

KMD was saying that if anything, he slipped that there was a 2 man scum team, and I'm not sure how he did that.

Only if he was including SK. 2 scum + SK. It's a stretch, but not as big a stretch as calling it a town slip.

[Kmd4390]

So I'm assuming that rules out AI possibly being scum. Or he could be using that course of action to throw off the suspicion, but I think that would be hard to pull of and maintain the act the whole game.

Using what? All he did was say there are 3 mafia at most, which is accurate and everyone is townreading him for it now. Since when does saying something about the setup make someone town for somehow NOT being aware of the setup? This whole thing is complete nonsense and you seem like someone who just skimmed and agreed rather than thinking critically.

Did Anen just call Kop "cum"?

There's townslips, there's scumslips, and there's freudian slips, I guess...

Aren't we all cum at first?

[Kmd4390]

Do we really not have seven people scumreading Always now?

=/

[Kmd4390]

Do we really not have seven people scumreading Always now?

=/

Why? You still want to see me lynched?

Doesn't seem smart for scum to do. People will be reading your posts afterwards and you will be implicated.

Your correct assessment of the setup hasn't changed my read, no.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote, Vote texcat

New wagon

GOGOGO

[Kmd4390]

No. Your towncase relies on him misreading the setup when he didn't. Based on his earlier posts, pride is important to him. I forget details, but he accused someone of thinking he was dumb or something.

[Kmd4390]

He has over 150 posts so it'll be a pain in the ass to find so hopefully you remember it, but there was an exchange where someone made a case on him or something and he took it as an insult to his intelligence and that was more important to him than the player's read on him and this whole thing felt smilar to that. Therefore, his reaction didn't feel alignment indicitive. And we all know that questioning a townread on one's self gets called town all the time. That's why I do it as scum and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Preview edit: Give me a minute.

[Kmd4390]

Texcat ISO:
ISO 0-3: completely null
4: pointless question. Posting for the sake of posting.
5: overexplaining the nothingness of her vote on me + asked BBT about confirmations
6: Not sure if this is a soft attack on ABR or lightly questioning Yos. Either way, I don't feel like Tex's heart is in it
7: a prod dodge
8: her big catch up says no read on ABR, Yos' playstyle is ok, Yos vs BBT isn't town vs town (but doesn't take a side) because gut, and asks Always for reads. This is kind of empty feeling for all of the words in the post. 15 pages in and I still don't have a clue on any of her reads.
9: this was the post I expressed problems with earlier. She says BBT is only focused on Yos which was only true in his posts made in one RL day up to that point, so it looks like an excuse to scum read him rather than a reason. But notice she still hasn't voted BBT or anyone else at that point. And then there's the question she asked to make sure Always was townreading her.
10-12: I don't have an issue with her Kop vote.
13: I asked Tex for thoughts on BBT's entire ISO other than Yos stuff. Her thoughts are that she agrees it's not all a tunnel and tunneling isn't scummy. Again, that's weak and empty. I'd think it would be easy to say more than that about BBT's ISO.
14: After she JUST SAID that BBT isn't tunneling and that tunneling isn't protown OR scummy, she sheeps Yos and quotes him saying that BBT's tunnel is fake to look protown. WTF? Horse shit.
15: Questions BBT's confidence. K.
16: wants to "resolve" BBT vs Yos. Sounds like she's capitalizing on their issues with each other rather than hunting scum between them. I bet if Yos was the one being wagoned, her vote would be on him, not BBT, if both are town.
17-18: sheeping acryon on Always "townslipping"

Basically, she's playing the careful, cautious, in the background agreeing game with a hint of opportunism and active lurking. She doesn't seem at all interesting in finding scum. I think she's worried about her own appearance. It's textbook scum mentality.

[Kmd4390]

He has over 150 posts so it'll be a pain in the ass to find so hopefully you remember it, but there was an exchange where someone made a case on him or something and he took it as an insult to his intelligence and that was more important to him than the player's read on him and this whole thing felt smilar to that. Therefore, his reaction didn't feel alignment indicitive. And we all know that questioning a townread on one's self gets called town all the time. That's why I do it as scum and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Preview edit: Give me a minute.

CTRL+F and search for "intelligence" or "insult".

I don't think my phone has a ctrl button.

No it doesn't. My towncase on him relies on his responses

Which I addressed in the second part of that. There are two parts to this. The BS townslip and the responses.

Pedit: And this is where a bit of gut and experience comes in. The way he questioned things did not feel at all like scum fabricating.

Maybe you feel your gut is stronger than mine, but do you have more experience than I do?

Lynching BBT would resolve the situation and give us a ton of info.

Lynching for info is BS

My other scum reads are Kop, and now an OMGUS read of KMD.

Lol are you guys reading this shit?

You went from "let's lynch AI" to "let's lynch texcat; she is textbook scum"? You have a shocking amount of open and shut cases ready to go.

It went from a gut read based on 1-2 posts to me actually pulling up her ISO and seeing just how bad it is. I'm actually more confident she's scum now than I ever was on Always. And it's funny because in some ways Always makes perfect sense as a buddy with her and in some ways it makes no sense at all but that's a post-flip discussion. But more importantly, what do

you

think of Tex? Is your take away from my post really just that I want her lynched? Nothing on the content of the post?

[Kmd4390]

You went from "let's lynch AI" to "let's lynch texcat; she is textbook scum"? You have a shocking amount of open and shut cases ready to go.

Looks like scum going after

low hanging fruit

in order to prevent scum buddy BBT's lynch.

You had zero votes...

[Kmd4390]

Oh, you're on your phone. There is a search functionality on your phone as well, but it depends on the phone you are using and which browser you are running. CTRL+F is pretty standard for any computer.

I don't have a computer and can't remember the name of my phone. It's one of the keyboard ones though. Samsung phone. Verizon service.

The first question I wanted to get answered was the one I asked. Now we can talk about the content, where I agree with you that her posts are fairly empty. It does feel like semi-active lurking.

It's not enough for a vote though?

Don't overestimate your read abilities. You won't believe me now, but your read on me is 100% wrong.I have seen newer players play better than experienced players, because experienced players were overconfident. It happens more often than you think.

You are misunderstanding the direction of my confidence. I'm confident that wasn't a townslip. That doesn't make you scum. Yes, I'm still scumreading you but your recent posts aren't why.

I'm actually slightly scum reading texcat also, but something about jumping from the second largest wagon (and the leading wagon for a long time) to someone with zero votes on them with less than 2 days until deadline doesn't sit right with me.

Unfortunately, the Always lynch isn't going to happen. I'm still unsure about BBT. He still looks worse than Yos, but I'm not convinced one of them has to be scum. Tex is a stronger scumread for me than BBT and I think enough people have doubts that if a few people support this, it can be a viable option. Two days is plenty of time. I just need the initial support from about two people. That's all it takes.

[Kmd4390]

That's all noise to me though. If you are town, of course you know that because only you and the Mod have that info. If you are scum, of course you'll say that because scum is claiming to be town. You can say it 100 times, and at the rate you're going you will, but like I said it's noise.

Preview edit: that was to Always

[Kmd4390]

That's all noise to me though. If you are town, of course you know that because only you and the Mod have that info. If you are scum, of course you'll say that because scum is claiming to be town. You can say it 100 times, and at the rate you're going you will, but like I said it's noise.

Preview edit: that was to Always

Yes, which is why I said that you won't believe me now, but it is still the truth. You will possibly reflect on your scumreading abilities (assuming that you are town for the moment) after I flip town (or when the game ends).

Believe me, no I won't. The options are:
1) you're scum
2) you're town and I figure it out before the game ends
3) you're town. I'm wrong and whatever no one is perfect.
4) you survive longer than me anyway.

Oh and it's still noise.

Low hanging fruit... What? I was nullish until I read this. I can back a texcat wagon if AI won't eat rope today.

Always isn't happening today. People are too wrapped up in a BS townslip and his reaction to it. Can't lynch without support.

[Kmd4390]

Rofl, what is your read on Tex? Any chance I can get your vote?

Preview edit: BBT, your name would look great on a Tex wagon.

[Kmd4390]

It's like he isn't even trying to scumhunt. Just trying to appear scumhunting. It took him half an hour to comment on some posts.

What makes his posts look that way?

[Kmd4390]

It's like he isn't even trying to scumhunt. Just trying to appear scumhunting. It took him half an hour to comment on some posts.

What makes his posts look that way?

My sense of disappointment. The time it took for him to post that, even though it looks like it shouldn't take that long to produce those comments if they are sincere.

*shrug*. Everyone's different. I've taken up to three hours to catch up on games before. I've also taken half an hour to read two pages. And to your second post, he probably didn't get that far yet. You're reaching here. Also, his post after yours here implies he isn't aware of the deadline so I doubt he's aware of the vote count, so the Tex comment was probably related to Tex's post, not the wagon.

why don't you think bbt should be the lynch?

The part of me that thinks he's scum is the paranoid part of me that knows he's a good player and that's shitty for a reason to lynch. If he's town, he's an asset and this setup has a possible cop so he could be confirmed if he's town and a confirmed town BBT could do some serious damage. Tex is a better option.

i'd change my vote but i love hammers too much

If you were on the Tex wagon and it didn't work out you can still hammer BBT. But without your vote, the tex wagon will probably never be hammerable.

this 11th hour counterewagon on texcat looks pretty bad all around

Why? Are you convinced BBT is scum? Considering the collapse of the Always wagon, is there a better option?

[Kmd4390]

But is that scum? Should he be lynched for it?

[Kmd4390]

If it's Lowell vs BBT, I could go either way. I'm not confident in my read on either of the two. I explained why on BBT and I liked Lowell until that one post I mentioned before. I'd probably prefer BBT. Tex would be better though. I'll be around to switch to BBT if needed.

[Kmd4390]

Wow, just realized there is a Page 34 lol. Reading it now

[Kmd4390]

Ok I read it.

[Kmd4390]

Can I answer or do you specifically want to hear it from Always?

[Kmd4390]

Shadow,

Things Lowell did that look town

-post 35 when he asked me about BBT. It looked like a genuine attempt to understand my position and to read BBT
-initially, I didn't like his vote on you for being try hard. But when he explained that it was more that you seemed to give off the impression of try hard rather than actually doing so, while I didn't agree with him, it showed he was looking for your motivations.
-I like his stance that lurker hunting is an easy out.
-post 184 shows that he is putting thought into questioning his reads, something that a lot of scum don't think to fake.
-I like a lot of his discussion about the wagons. For example, the fact that an Always/BBT team would mean eight people were voting scum. Unless that were actually the case, why would scum point it out?

Things Lowell did that look scummy

-I don't like his random assumption that BBT was town before the wagon popped up.
-His buying the whole "Always is town" thing and switch to BBT came out of nowhere and pretty much sucked ass.
-The BBT vote actually makes sense as a bus. I just realized this.

[Kmd4390]

Always, you forgot Kop on your list.

[Kmd4390]

Oh. That color sucks.

ABR, I'd compromise on BBT before Lowell.

[Kmd4390]

Shadow,

Things Lowell did that look town

-post 35 when he asked me about BBT. It looked like a genuine attempt to understand my position and to read BBT
-initially, I didn't like his vote on you for being try hard. But when he explained that it was more that you seemed to give off the impression of try hard rather than actually doing so, while I didn't agree with him, it showed he was looking for your motivations.
-I like his stance that lurker hunting is an easy out.
-post 184 shows that he is putting thought into questioning his reads, something that a lot of scum don't think to fake.
-I like a lot of his discussion about the wagons. For example, the fact that an Always/BBT team would mean eight people were voting scum. Unless that were actually the case, why would scum point it out?

Things Lowell did that look scummy

-I don't like his random assumption that BBT was town before the wagon popped up.
-His buying the whole "Always is town" thing and switch to BBT came out of nowhere and pretty much sucked ass.
-The BBT vote actually makes sense as a bus. I just realized this.

Do you think scum-AI and scum-Lowell are both on scum-BBT's wagon?

Probably not. That's a post flip discussion though.

If all of these people have associated reads based on BBT-scum, then why is BBT not the lynch? I know I'm not super interested in it, but it seems like it would clear the most up and at worst it is as bad as a last-minute Lowell/texcat lynch.

Associatives are a terrible reason for a day one Lynch. And a Lynch forming last minute doesn't mean it's not on scum.

Let's not do this. Doesn't it bother anyone that Kmd is the one who started this wagon?

Why ahould it? You weren't scum reading me until I voted you and you even immediately admitted it was omgus.

On the whole meta discussion, anyone who is a good player probably tries to play similarly as town and scum. However I've seen Tex's town game and I correctly read her as obvtown. I was on an alternative so she won't remember me but it was a large game and I was so.

[Kmd4390]

I explained why I moved my vote.

Also I feel like I'm having this meta-discussion everywhere at once? Is it really your opinion that changing votes often is a scum move? Because my experience is that scum are less inclined to make enemies.

Lowell is probably town people.

Or he's copying the meta-discussion from games where he is actually town to this game, but meh.

I think you may have it too stuck in your head that scum need to play completely different games than when they are town. You can look at my past games to see this is not the case. This mindset is going to be dangerous for town going forward if you keep on it. Especially when we are talking about such small sample sizes to draw from.

It depends on the player, but I mostly agree with Always in this discussion.

And I agree with ABRs last post

[Kmd4390]

Typical scum springs into action as soon as they are in danger. Happy to lurk away the day otherwise. Lynch texcat please.

This also is a bad argument. Town defends themselves as well as scum.

It's the increase in activity when under pressure that is scummy because it shows that the earlier lurking was probably intentional.

[Kmd4390]

Always, you realize how close deadline is right?

[Kmd4390]

Yep. Just under 22 hours

[Kmd4390]

Not exactly null. This is where I voted you for your super secret naked vote. 

And you retracted it saying you misunderstood. Null.

Of course you don't feel like my heart is in it. That's confirmation bias. 

No, it's a legitimate feeling. I know the difference.

Horse shit, indeed. I never said that BBT wasn't tunneling. I said that his early ISO was more than a tunnel

And the early game is what I had asked you about

The tunnel has been a lot more than the one RL day that you claim

It has now. At the time of that post, it hadn't. Go back and check.

I questioned ABR's read of town v town, saying that BBT was not acting in a pro-town way. Why would you be surprised that I agreed with Yos that the tunnel looked scummy. 

Because you said tunneling is never protown and Yos was saying BBT was doing it just to look protown. So you are basically voting someone for trying to look protown by doing something you don't think it protown. It doesn't fit. You're just jumping on the lead wagon for that low hanging fruit you accused me of going after.

Not at all sheeping. I disagreed and questioned the townslip. And then did agree with the reaction 

You're far from the first to do that. You're sheeping. Whether it's scummy or not, it's what you're doing. I don't see how you can deny that.

[Kmd4390]

Takeaway's from Kop's ISO:
-he seems to legitmately feel attacked by acryon. Minor town points for acryon (it's minor because some scum hate being bussed. Acryon also derailed the Always wagon and Always was town so I don't see why he'd do that as scum).
-I see a soft defense of Lowell when Kop responds to Always, who was responding to Lucky. Interesting that he felt the need to butt in. Scum points for Lowell.
-Bad attack on Lucky ("wanting to be scumread"). Lucky is a special case now with his claim though. Likely not mafia. Vig or SK.
-Attacked Rofl for his posting style, saying he doesn't understand how Rofl can be a strong town read for anyone. Doesn't call Rofl scum. Hard to tell if he is discrediting a town read on a town player or distancing from a buddy...
-Lowell vote doesn't read like a bus. That earlier soft defense was weird though...
-I don't think Anen is a buddy.
-Implies Lowell is only a pressure vote. Hmm...
-Anen had called Kop out for a "fake" vote on Lowell. I can see it as I read more.
-Seemed to avoid BBT vs Yos. Called it town vs town without good reason. Could see one of them being a buddy.

Too early to do a ton with these, but some quick things about vote counts:
The Yos wagon in VC 6 and Always wagon in VC 8:
Yosarian2 (5): BlueBloodedToffee, acryon, Lowell, roflcopter,

AlwaysInnocent

AlwaysInnocent

(5): Kmd4390, Lucky2u, Aneninen, roflcopter, Lowell
^If Yos is town, there is a good chance of hitting scum in Rofl/Lowell.

VC 17:

AlwaysInnocent

(5): Kmd4390, Lucky2u, Aneninen, roflcopter, Lowell
BlueBloodedToffee (4): Yosarian2,

Albert B. Rampage, texcat, AlwaysInnocent

^two things to note here. 5 votes on town on Day 1. Almost certainly scum on that Always wagon. The other thing is that BBT wagon is pretty ridiculously town driven. If Yos is town, why hadn't scum jumped on at this point? Could BBT be scum? Of course they could have just liked the Always wagon better or avoided both. We already know Kop wasn't on either one though. I'd be shocked if these wagons were both on town and scum managed to stay off both here.

VC 18:
BlueBloodedToffee (5): Yosarian2,

Albert B. Rampage, texcat, AlwaysInnocent

, Lowell

AlwaysInnocent

(3): Kmd4390, Lucky2u, roflcopter
^now momentum shifts to BBT and look where Lowell went. If BBT is town, Lowell is probably opportunistic scum.

Lynch:

texcat

(7): Kmd4390, Lucky2u,

Albert B. Rampage

, shaddowez, Lowell, BlueBloodedToffee, Yosarian2 ~~~ [LYNCH]
^There is basically zero chance scum didn't follow me on to Tex. If BBT is scum, his other living buddy if he has one, is probably here too. So Shadow and/or Lowell make sense here. BBT may or may not be scum.

Lowell fits everywhere I look. Kop's interactions with him are sketchy and he was on every major Day 1 wagon.

Vote Lowell

[Kmd4390]

Kmd do you think kop avoided bbt vs yos because they are both town and just wanted to let it happen?

Eh. It's possible, but I'm not sure why he'd call it town vs town in that case.

[Kmd4390]

Kop did everything he could do discourage people from lynching BBT specifically.

Can you back this with quotes? The only one I remember off hand was the one where he said lynching for info sucks which is true and could have just been an attempt at town points.

pretty sure kmd chose to pursue the absolute least likely kop scumpartner lead

Did you even read my post?

[Kmd4390]

So calling you vs BBT town vs town twice and saying BBT being an info lynch sucks = doing everything he can to discourage people from lynching BBT, specifically? Even with 22 posts, that's not much. Could the arguement be made that he didn't want you lynched either? BBT only got one mention without you and it was when a BBT lynch was being discussed. I mean, yeah I'm playing devil's advocate here, but it's because your word choice feels like hyperbole and it's not the first time I've felt that way about you this game.

[Kmd4390]

Yos, no I don't think that. But I don't think it's a defense of BBT either. And as far as his Lowell mentions... one was a soft defense. One implied his vote was only a pressure vote. One was responding to Anen calling the vote fake. I mean, calling it attacking feels like a stretch. If he hadn't voted him, I don't think you'd be calling it that. And look at Lowell's Day 1 voting record. He just went where the momentum was. He wanted a lynch and didn't care who it was.

[Kmd4390]

Lucky, BBT is L-2 (Yos, Rofl, Acryon) so Lowell voting would be L-1.

yos is right, kop spent a lot of time derailing the BBT wagon.

"A lot of time" also feels like hyperbole. He made one post where that may or may not have been his intent.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, I'm with Yos on the most recent Yos/BBT exchange. BBT calling Yos' posts an attempt to discredit feels ridiculously manipulative. I like Yos' post 531 and think BBT should do that. It should be easy if he's so sure Yos is scum. If BBT is town though, I don't like Tex's sheep vote.

kmd can you explain how you got from here to starting the tex wagon, and why you never actually voted for bbt?

I don't see where anything changed. BBT was scummier than Yos. Still is. Tex was also scummy. They didn't seem like buddies though and I chose Tex. Today, we had four flips worth of info. That info points to Lowell or BBT in my opinion. I chose Lowell. I am fully aware how bad I'd look if BBT flips scum. I'm fine with that because I think Lowell is slightly more likely to be scum. The fact that there is basically zero push for anyone but BBT supports that. If he is scum, so be it. I'll get lynched next. I'd understand that because it would mean my reads haven't been perfect and I've been too vocal about flawed reads and bad for town. Looking at dead players, I was right about ABR, but not confident in that. I was right about Kop, but again not very confident. I was dead wrong about both Tex and Always. If BBT is scum and Lowell is town, I was wrong about which way to lean today even though I wouldn't be completely shocked if that were the case. But my point is, yeah I know I look bad if BBT is scum and I don't really care. I just want to lynch scum and I think Lowell is more likely to be that scum than BBT even though BBT is probably going to be today's lynch. I'm not blind to gamestate.

You went from "let's lynch AI" to "let's lynch texcat; she is textbook scum"? You have a shocking amount of open and shut cases ready to go.

Looks like scum going after

low hanging fruit

in order to prevent scum buddy BBT's lynch.

You had zero votes...

reposting because dead townie texcat was right on the money

She had zero votes.

[Kmd4390]

i'm more interested in the part that says "in order to prevent scumbuddy bbt's lynch" since that is exactly what happened. you managed to drum up a wagon from 0 to 60 at deadline which directly removed the noose from around toffee's neck, and today you've decided to selectively read kop's iso to pursue lowell instead of bbt. so yes when bbt flips scum you die next and then we lynch lucky if the game isn't over, and then the town wins. thanks!

I have no problem with this stance.

i believe focusing on the tex calling herself low hanging fruit instead of tex calling out kmd for saving bbt with the 11th hour counterwagon is known as a strawman argument

I think focusing on bolded print is known as pretty natural. Also, I didn't ignore that part. I've said I'm fully aware how I look if BBT flips scum.

[Kmd4390]

Prod dodge

[Kmd4390]

It means chances are a little lower that scum saw a wagon on a strong town player and took advantage by jumping on. It means chances are a little higher that scum avoided the BBT wagon, making him town. Problem is, there are a lot of living players on his wagons too and at least one living player is scum. If you, Rofl, Yos, or Lowell (off the top of my head) is scum, then you're completely right and it doesn't mean anything.

(Sorry this was a pretty useless post. I don't have much to say, so I'm making glorified prod dodges like this because the whole prod=replacement site meta encourages that)

[Kmd4390]

Lucky being SK would explain a lot of your concerns, BBT. Surely, you don't think he's mafia after his claim, right?

^true story, I typed that before reading Lucky's post which makes this basically fluff. Oh well. Consider Lucky's post pretty much echo'd by me.

Preview edit: lol guess it's a common though

[Kmd4390]

BBT, so my starting the Tex wagon outweighs all of the negatives you just said about me or...? And is the Shadow vote just because of the Tex vote. I was like positive you were about to vote either Lucky, Lowell, or myself. You explained wanting to wait on Lucky and liking Lowell for Kop's vote, but the way I magically ended up in your town pile sounds like you're scum who knows you are about to be lynched and you want to set me up for tomorrow (don't worry, I'm as good as dead already if you flip scum).

I want a claim. I'm ready to hammer.

Unvote

[Kmd4390]

welp now that we've got all those lovely scum thoughts about how scummy everyone is we can get a ====[]

i like lucky the sk i agree with him a lot. good scumhunting sk!

Thanks rofl! Atleast we found a way to get along.

Acryon, why not?

Because the odds of us having a SK are

significantly

higher than us having 2 vig's. So now you've drawn suspicion as our vig, which will get you killed by scum or lynched by town.

That's actually a good point. I'd be shocked if scum didn't kill Lucky tonight, especially if they are down to one member. This isn't exactly bad for town though even if Lucky flips vig because at least we don't have to deal with all of the WIFOM around him that way.

[Kmd4390]

Vote BBT

[Kmd4390]

I was town reading all of you guys, so I don't even know.

Rofl, this isn't going to convince you of anything but I'm better scum than to have kept you alive twice when you would have been my optimal kill. Unless you are a BP SK who thinks I shot you N1 or something.

Guess I'll look at vote counts.

[Kmd4390]

Gonna have to do vote counts later. My son just woke up...

[Kmd4390]

AlwaysInnocent

(4): Aneninen, roflcopter, Kmd4390,

Lucky2u

Yosarian2

(3):

BlueBloodedToffee

, acryon,

Lowell
Lucky2u (2): Yosarian2, Albert B. Rampage

Kmd4390 (1):

AlwaysInnocent

texcat

(1):

Kop

Not Voting (2): 

texcat

, shaddowez
^Acryon probably not mafia for following BBT. At least one scum in [Anen, Rofl] for sure.

Yosarian2

(5):

BlueBloodedToffee

, acryon,

Lowell

, roflcopter,

AlwaysInnocent

AlwaysInnocent

(3): Kmd4390,

Lucky2u,

Aneninen

BlueBloodedToffee

(1):

Yosarian2
Lucky2u (1): Albert B. Rampage
texcat

(1):

Kop

Not Voting (2): 

texcat

, shaddowez
^Acryon still town. Maybe Rofl SK and one of Anen/Shadow mafia? Shadow is hard from these two VCs because he's not voting. But yeah, Acryon is the only one I can say is not mafia from these.

AlwaysInnocent

(5): Kmd4390,

Lucky2u,

Aneninen, roflcopter, Lowell

BlueBloodedToffee

(1):

Yosarian2

Lucky2u (1): Albert B. Rampage
texcat

(1):

Kop

Yosarian2

(1):

BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (4): shaddowez,

texcat, AlwaysInnocent,

acryon
^And there's Rofl back on Always. It's pretty much impossible for Always to be town with five votes all from town so I'm ruling out Acryon and Shadow BOTH being scum. One of them has to be town. Still thinking Rofl and one of Anen/Shadow.

AlwaysInnocent

(5): Kmd4390,

Lucky2u

, Aneninen, roflcopter,

Lowell

BlueBloodedToffee

(4):

Yosarian2, Albert B. Rampage, texcat, AlwaysInnocent
Lowell

(2): shaddowez,

Kop

Yosarian2

(1):

BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (1): acryon
^So an entirely town driven wagon has popped up on BBT and the Always wagon hasn't changed. Scum has to already be on it. So either Rofl is mafia or if Rofl is town or SK, Anen is mafia. If Rofl is mafia, SK could still be either Anen or Shadow. If Anen is mafia, Rofl is probably SK but I won't rule out Shadow.

BlueBloodedToffee

(5):

Yosarian2, Albert B. Rampage, texcat, AlwaysInnocent, Lowell
AlwaysInnocent

(3): Kmd4390,

Lucky2u

, roflcopter

Lowell

(2): shaddowez,

Kop
Kop

(1): Aneninen

Yosarian2

(1):

BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (1): acryon
^So BBT is up to five votes. Anen jumps off of the second biggest wagon to vote Kop? Nah, not mafia. Scum wouldn't bus one buddy when another is in danger of being lynched. He'd have to stay where he is or push Lowell. Anen is in the same boat as Acryon. Either SK or town. I don't think Shadow makes sense as scum with Kop and BBT here either, so it's got to be Rofl. I have no idea on the SK, but I guess I'd lean Anen.

texcat

(7): Kmd4390,

Lucky2u, Albert B. Rampage

, shaddowez,

Lowell

,

BlueBloodedToffee

,

Yosarian2

 ~~~ [LYNCH]

BlueBloodedToffee

(4):

texcat

, roflcopter,

AlwaysInnocent,

acryon

Lowell

(1):

Kop

Lucky2u

(1): Aneninen

Shadow being on Tex stands out, but Rofl going back to BBT REALLY stands out. Either he knew Tex would be lynched and took a gamble and bussed BBT (and remember he went hard after BBT Day 2) or he's not mafia. *sigh*. Rofl, if you are mafia, you played great. Maybe it really is Shadow...

I'm not gonna bother with Day 2 VCs because the only takeaway is that Rofl and Acryon voted BBT so they either bussed or aren't mafia which I've already established. Acryon's other patterns suggest he's not mafia, so I'm ruling out him bussing.

The other thing I want to look at is the fact that no SK in their right mind would kill Lucky, which means scum did it. Lucky probably killed Lowell. That means SK must have killed Yos. So I want to see his reads and see who had reason to kill him:
OK, so it's been a while since he mentioned any of you, but his last mention of:
Shadow: "dodgy" (And as I scroll up, I see a few accusations that Shadow is scum with BBT)
Anen: "If BTT is scum, Anen is likely town. "
Rofl: trying hard to get him (Yos) to unvote BBT
Acryon: uhhhh. I'm skimming but can't find anything.
So Shadow as SK makes sense, especially if Rofl is right that BBT was hinting about a failed kill. But then who is mafia? Anen?

I mean, BBT as scum said this AFTER the hammer:

Pay attention to what I said tomorrow.

At first I thought he was:
A) town
B) fucking with us by either implying he was town
C) fucking with us as scum who left fake associatives

But did he really have a hint who was SK? We know that N1 consisted of kills from both vigs and one kill. So yeah, a kill was missing. Did scum really try to kill Shadow? Not really sure I believe that. But did they block Shadow? Now that I can see.

So here's where I'm leaning now:
-Shadow is SK
-Rofl or Anen is mafia

Thoughts?

[Kmd4390]

Ok, so someone can claim vig and clear that up. Until then, I'll assume we are dealing with scum+SK

[Kmd4390]

No lynch only helps if there is a SK and SK+scum try to shoot each other I think.

If there's no SK and vig holds their shot, we definitely don't want to no lynch.
So assuming a vig would shoot:
If there's no SK, we no lynch and vig shoots, game is in vig's hands.
If there's no SK, we lynch scum, town wins.
^so if you're right that there's a vig, no SK, why would we no lynch?

If it's scum+SK and we no lynch:
If scum and SK shoot each other. Town wins
If scum or SK shoots each other and the other shoots town, it's 3p LYLO
If scum and SK shoot town, it's 1v1v1
If SK or scum is the only death, one of them remains against 3 town.
If there is only one town death, it's 2 town against scum+SK.

So yeah, no lynch assumes we don't have a town vig and assumes both anti town entities work in a way that is beneficial to town. I don't like it.

[Kmd4390]

Would Lucky kill Yos? If so, that means SK (or vig I guess) shot Lowell, but why would they?

Is anyone actually against a massclaim? If you don't all say so in your next post, I'll start.

[Kmd4390]

Rofl, why would a SK shoot Lucky? With him alive, all SK spec is on him. Especially considering he was supposed to be holding his shot so two kills would happen. Everyone assumes scum killed and Lucky killed which leaves Lucky looking like shit. Even if they thought there were no mafia left and kill anyone BUT Lucky, they know Lucky being alive draws the SK WIFOM toward him. The SK would want to hide behind Lucky's claim as long as possible. That kill makes no sense for a SK.

The above posting by Anen is exactly what I remember him doing in NS's open game which had both mafia and SK where he was town. I'm pretty sure it's Rofl and Shadow.

[Kmd4390]

Anen, what do you think about the theory that BBT was hinting at scum knowing Shadow was SK?

[Kmd4390]

What if exactly that has happened?

Then why wouldn't I shoot Rofl last night? Eliminate the SK and the player who has been calling me scum all night.

Rofl is very unlikely Mafia, just saying. 

Why? You don't think he'd bus?

I don't think it would help. Any scum could fake anything in this situation.If we need, on the other hand, I can start. I know that won't help them.

They can, but I don't think it would be hard to sniff out a fakeclaim.

(1) Who the f--- killed Lucky? Definitely not the SK. He could have been a perfect lynchbait for SK-hunting. So, that must have been the Mafia-kill. Or is there another Vig?

Maybe scum. I was trying to get them to do it with my posts yesterday because he was either SK or mislynch bait so I didn't want him around. Maybe it worked? Or maybe they were just trying to eliminate a threat at night. Or he suicided.

After the hammer he could have posted it in open too.

Actually a good point.

~. Quote Tags Fixed. ~~~. Zar

[Kmd4390]

Tag fail...

Mod, please fix?

[Kmd4390]

Unfortunately don't have time to post until Monday still, but I'll be ready to go then.

Any problems with us massclaiming today?

[Kmd4390]

I'm trying to figure out if Lucky has the old school mentality enough to suicide vig. I mean, I feel like no but maybe he heard it somewhere and went "that's a good idea".

You meant "all Day" with that "all Night", didn't you?

I meant "all game". Must have still been thinking about the previous sentence. That can happen when I get interupted mid post.

I know it was for Acryon, but I've been thinking. It could help us in a certain situation, but I'm not talking about this before the claims.

So are you a yes or a no? Because if you're a no we can just end the discussion. I just thought of a situation where someone saying no makes sense, but I'm not the role that could have the specifications I thought of.

Was that a decision from Lucky?

Could be. It shows he didn't want to survive the night and I'd be surprised if he posted after the hammer without crumbing if he crumbed before N1.

[Kmd4390]

I'm here.

This thread needs more acryon and shadow.

[Kmd4390]

I don't see how that changes things. We had three kills last night.

[Kmd4390]

Could have been a 1-shot vig

Ok but that still has nothing to do with what you said.

[Kmd4390]

Having more kills than expected isn't explained by the possibility two people shot the same person.

[Kmd4390]

Shadow, gotcha. We were looking at different nights.

I'm VT. Guess that leaves Acryon

[Kmd4390]

I hope we lynch shadow and he flips mafia lol. I think he's SK though.

[Kmd4390]

Your face feels contrived

[Kmd4390]

I'm cool with giving Anen time. Consider my vote on Shadow in spirit.

[Kmd4390]

Did you ever say why you're so sure I'm the SK you weren't sure existed coming into the day? Or are you hoping for the easy lynch and a kill on opposing scum tonight for the win?

[Kmd4390]

Anen, I do have another suspect. Remember? I said it's between you and Rofl but based on meta, you're probably town so Rofl is most likely to be mafia? Speaking of that, did you ever answer when I asked why you don't think he'd bus BBT?

I'm still good with lynching shadow by the way, so I think we're good unless Rofl has something else to say.

[Kmd4390]

Anen, not quite sure what you mean. The Kop kill would have been a vig's decision and had nothing to do with who was actually scum. And I think they had the same info we did with Lucky's claim, meaning yeah he was either SK or vig and instructed by Yos not to kill.

[Kmd4390]

*shrug*. I don't feel apathetic, but if I was it would be because of people's assumption that I'm scum just because I was slow to pull the trigger on any BBT suspicion. If I was SK who was 1-2 lynches away from a win, I'd be anything but apathetic. Anen has actually seen me in that spot, but I was playing as an alt. I know self meta kind of sucks, but there is zero similarity between my play here and my play there where I pretty much wiped out the enitre scum team in a large open setup and survived to 3P LYLO. I also don't feel my scumhunting was "soft". Maybe quick, but not soft. Acryon makes zero sense as mafia, and I don't think he's SK. Anen is obvtowning the shit out of this thread. That leaves you and Rofl. I think Rofl bussed BBT and I think you are the SK. It's hard to see very many other scenarios so I've been ready for a lynch for a while. Maybe that comes off soft and apathetic? I dunno. But even if it does, I don't get the leap from apathetic to SK. Sk is a fun role to play.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Shadow

*fingers crossed

[Kmd4390]

So when I got my night start PM (yes, SK, VTs get those too), I came to the thread saw shadow's flip and laughed enough that my one year old son ran over to me and started laughing too. Wish I caught it on video. But as far as actual important stuff...

I'm leaning Rofl but want to look at as much as possible. Unfortunately, this is a very busy week for me and I'm not completely sure what to look for. I'll do my best though.

[Kmd4390]

Why did you find it necessary to tell VTs get NightStart Messages too?

Don't read too much into that. It just feels weird to me to get those as a VT but the more I think about it, the more I feel I probably shouldn't have included that. Technically, I could be SK who recieved it and asked the Mod if VTs did too. Let's just leave it at that.

Why exactly did you find the flip funny?

I honestly thought there was near zero chance he was mafia based on where his votes were compared to BBT's. I thought we were lynching the SK because hisplay was scummy in hindsight but VCA had him mostly ruled out as mafia. I played out the scenarios in my head after the lynch and it looked ugly. Either he was town and we needed a crosskill or he was SK and there was a good chance I get lynched today and mafia wins. But for some reason, I didn't even think "maybe he actually will flip mafia" posthammer (yeah, it crossed my mind during Day 3 but I didn't think it would actually happen). So I'd basically assumed we'd lost and just seeing that flip was funny and a huge relief at the same time. 1186 was me basically thinking "it would be great and funny but won't happen".

Since nothing seems to be happening, here's a question for both of you. Let's assume that the other one of you is the SK. (Or me, from your point of view it's still possible.) What kind of SK do you think the other one is? BP or II? I do have a goal with this question and I'll reveal it later.

Interesting question. Didn't we have an unaccounted for missing kill? That alone suggests BP is more likely. But I guess one way to think about that is if you have no fear of being NK'd, does that change your game to the overly town NK magnet kind of game? Because I don't feel either of you did that until you yesterday. Then again, Rofl doesn't seem like someone who changes style from game to game. At least I don't think so. Then again, I don't know his main account and Yos suggested his style is different than this on his main so maybe he does think about what style to use in each game. I dunno. I'm confusing myself more than helping anything. Let me go with the BP answer whether it's you or Rofl though.

[Kmd4390]

I'd rather not discuss the first thing. It borders on game breaking which I realized after the fact, but I already mentioned why SK

could

say it so ignore it.

...are you Egg? LOL!

Are you [redacted]?

------------

I've been thinking about this game and my biggest concern with you, Anen, is honestly just that you are still alive. I expected you to be the kill mostly because you did all of the work yesterday, but Acryon makes sense to because we were all townreading him. I hate to just go by PoE though and Rofl was a town read for me all of Day 1 and 2. And you even mentioned he hasn't been here and that surprises me if he is scum. I feel like this is make or break time and if he was scum, he'd come in and make his case. Although he could just be waiting to see which of us is easier to sway. Or he could just be busy. I dunno. I just hate the fact that all I have to go by is PoE and gut this late in the game, but how else to you catch a SK? We don't really know who their kills were for every night and the ones that we do know could have been made by anyone. It's hard because you guys haven't really been suspected a whole lot so nobody had to kill any direct threats.

I want to see what Rofl has to say.

[Kmd4390]

By the way, having thought about something and there are two pieces of information which can clear me for good if put together. But it's a paradox; if I explained it it wouldn't prove anything (since "self-clearing" could be a lie too).

I'm interested in hearing it anyway.

He hasn't posted anything on the forum since 4 days or so. I've just checked it. 

So likely not game related then.

Without him we literally can't do anything. If he's the SK, lynching him without his presense is not a kind of win I'd consider fun. If you're the SK, I can't lynch you alone so his absence would be simply detrimental. 

I mean if he's the SK, I'm not worried about what is fun. But it's 3p LYLO and lynching before he posts is just bad play. We need his perspective.

[Kmd4390]

Actually, the part about your Shadow read makes sense. If you were SK being honest about all reads not related to SK, you had Shadow as unlikely mafia whichmeans you'd have thought he was town. Even if you took BP, you'd be worried you lost it N1. So you wouldn't want to go into N3 at 4p with 2 town and a mafia because scum could shoot you or if you both shot town, you draw. So you would have pushed hard to lynch mafia and accepting a Shadow lynch makes zero sense. The same could really be said about me to a lesser extent. It's a lesser extent because I was probably next most likely lynch after Shadow and if I was SK, my lynch means a loss so I'd probably take my chances at shooting scum. Rofl never really expressed a mafia or not mafia read on Shadow that I can find because he was so set on me asmafia and Shadow as SK

Preview edit: there he is

[Kmd4390]

Anen, which of the three deaths do you think the SK doubled up on and why do you think they shot that person?

[Kmd4390]

Been working a shit ton. Planning to review Day 3 again. Won't be today though.

[Kmd4390]

I'll do stuff tonight.

[Kmd4390]

i don't believe there is anything i can do to prevent you from voting for me. you've been building up your rofl=sk case since yesterday.

Looking for a replacement for roflcopter

Scum giving up?

I mean, no attempt at all to determine who is scum. Just saying he doesn't think he can save himself and then gone...

[Kmd4390]

What the fuck. Of all the people who could have replaced in.

Give me a couple hours to consider whether I want to stay

[Kmd4390]

1) I know you from my alt and recently decided not to play with you again. I was speaking out of frustration. I don't replace out of games and I'll stay.
2) shadow being scum makes it clear what he was doing. He started to panic when he saw that he was going to be lynched and came after me just because my interactions with BBT looked bad. He tried to argue at the start of the day that there was no SK and suddenly had me as obv SK. It wasn't a genuine read. It was an attempt to save his own ass with a last ditch attack on someone who everyone thought was mafia

So here's what I'm thinking about right now:
-Anen's point that he thought Shadow was non-mafia and SK needed to lynch mafia so his Shadow vote makes no sense as SK is a good one. That vote would have been dumb for a SK and Anen isn't dumb.
-I feel like I've seen somewhere that Rofl likes playing scum. His being replaced feels weird in that case but if he already felt he'd lost, maybe he gave up? I dunno
-In NS's game where we were down to like 10 town vs 1 SK, I think I remember him saying something about SK not wanting to be too town and get NK'd. He kind of played that way the first two days when mafia was still a threat at night. N3, I'm sure Shadow would have been shooting for SK so Day 3 is a good time to town it up with analysis and stuff. However, that analysis lines up with Anen's town play in NS's game.

So basically, I'm still kind of on the fence but leaning Rofl/RC. I wanted to look back over Day 3, but the most telling thing there is something I've already discussed with Anen, which is the fact that SK wanted to lynch mafia and Rofl fit that profile better than Anen which is the main reason I'm leaning that way.

I've got nothing but free time tonight, so I'm gonna do a little digging.

[Kmd4390]

I see Rofl hasn't posted on site since his last post here, however he hadn't been active anywhere but here for a little bit so it's hard to say whether his inactivity was game related or not.

[Kmd4390]

Interesting find in mafia discussion

roflcopter plays a very good sk. I would have been totally fooled if I wasn't the mod.

BTW, roflcopter got a scummy nomination for his SK win. (He was kill-immune, the mafia tried to kill him three nights in a row...

Very old posts though. Wonder if I can find the game.

Found it! Holy shit though, 8 years ago. Damn near useless. Still interesting:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
^Similar to here except more wordy. It was a wordier time though. Speaks in certainties as far as people being scum just like he did here. I see a strong LYLO and a win though. I dunno though. It's been 8 years so I don't think there's anything to gain from it.

I didn't find what I was looking for though which is some kind of recent opinion from Rofl on being scum.

Preview edit:

Why can't SK!Adenine have just been wrong about who the mafia was though?

That's not the point. The SK would have wanted mafia lynched. Anen voted for a player who he didn't think was mafia, assuming his mafia reads were genuine reads. So basically if he's SK, he voted a town read when SK clearly needed a mafia lynch.

I'm going to have to do that at some point.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Kmd4390]

Anen, this was your idea of what SK would do in a past game:

– he/she wanted to look medium-town but not pro-town. Firstly, being pro-town might have lead to their Nightkill. Secondly, a possible Cop investigation could have earned them some protection against getting lynched.

Why haven't you brought up anything similar to this here?

Why would you assume his mafia reads are genuine reads though?

Because that's SK 101. You play as if you are a town vig during the day. The real scummy shit is in the way you kill at night. And at a time when SK wants mafia lynched, the best thing they can do is genuinely say who they think is scum and why. The exception is if he realized people prefered to lynch the SK over mafia, and some did. So I can see where it makes sense for him to say shadow is SK if he's scum reading him. But the way he did his analysis suggested he didn't believe there was any way Shadow (or Rofl for that matter) was mafia.

I'd think it more likely that he'd want his actual mafia reads to be in his serial killer reads to distance himself from the SK role.That way he can go back later and say OH BUT I WAS SK HUNTING I'M NOT SK.

Like this?

kmd mafia, shaddowez skgame set match

 i think the correct move today is to try to lynch the sk

vote: shaddowez

Correct.

I again cannot defend or pass judgement on the actions of my predecessor.

That's why this situation is annoying. I'm looking for anything I can but instead of having Rofl to answer for it I have Anen's input and quotes like this from you. I agree there's not much you can say about Rofl's meta, but yeah. It's annoying.

Engage me.

Give me something to work with. We won't get anywhere until you read the game.

[Kmd4390]

Obviously the SK reads would be BS. But if you read his analysis for mafia, I think you'll agree he genuinely thought shadow wasn't mafia.

[Kmd4390]

Actually, as I go back over that analysis, I feel Anen may have been misrepresenting just how not-mafia he was reading Shadow.

[Kmd4390]

I'd have to check that again, but all that's saying is that I should be voting you.

*shrug*

The point I was making was that Anen as SK doesn't make sense which is why I think it's you. In that case, I wouldn't care where you vote. But now I'm doubting myself.

[Kmd4390]

Anen's read trajectory on Shadow:

Shadowez's 1125 is a weird response. I don't know why, but it's weird. (Maybe because he was distancing from being a Mafia without distancing from being an SK? After all, he was away from the BBT-wagon and he was the second least active player on Day2.)

Good point. That feels off from Shadow.

As for Mafia. There are plenty of things against KMD, but there's a break in his posts at 1133. I mean, the latest posts are town-ish. But, if it's not him, whom then? Rofl is VERY unlikely, because of his votes. Shadowez is possible, especially because of his votes and inactivity on Day2. (Although I shouldn't bring the later thing up at all.) As for SK, if we have one. Rofl's Day3 posts fit an SK-mindset, although I wouldn't rule out Shadowez. KMD is unlikely; He could have jumped on BBT much earlier, for example. 

So Shadow is "possible" as mafia and can't be ruled out as SK.

Actually yes. We three, Rofl, you and me have been talking a lot. I can imagine you as Mafia very easily and Rofl as SK if there's any. But if I'm wrong and there's at least one scum in the Shadowez/Acryon pair, one of them/they only need to wait until we "eat up" each other. And that's what I don't want to see.Shadowez's later posts don't change much. He's doing nothing but telling how unlikely there an SK is. 

Anen has me as mafia and Rofl as SK, but Shadow as a lurker he doesn't like. Not sure how I feel about the "if there is any" comment about SK. Is he genuinely pondering it or distancing from the knowledge?

I'm VT.Popcorn Shadowez

Why popcorn to shadow when Rofl and I hadn't claimed yet?

Post 1183 is huge and I don't feel like quoting it. But he lists Shadow as #2 for both mafia and SK behind myself and Rofl, respectively. But here's my thing and this is kind of what I was getting at originally. He had me as #1 mafia. His points about my BBT interactions actually made sense at the time. The reason he voted Shadow over me was because he thought Shadow had a chance to flip either way where I didn't make sense as SK. (Could have sworn he later said he didn't think shadow was mafia but here it is so whatever). If he really thought I was mafia, why vote for the second choice just because shadow could flip either? If Anen is SK, he knows that's wrong because shadow isn't flipping SK. Therefore, he needs to vote me in that spot if he's SK. He has no reason to believe that shadow is more likely mafia than me and then list shadow second. He's got a stronger mafia case against me than Shadow. So why vote shadow as SK and not me? ANEN AS TOWN, i get it. You don't want to get a mislynch if you are wrong where you could be wrong and still hit scum of one kind or another. Shadow had a higher chance of flipping anti town than I did based on that analysis. So it's a vote that makes sense for town and not for SK.

Now, I think Shadowez is SK and Kmd is Mafia. Normally (and I'm contradicting myself now), Kmd would be a better lynch. BUT.If we're wrong about Kmd (and it's possible), he's town. However, if we're wrong about Shadowez, there's still a decent chance that he's Mafia. (See my logic in an earlier post; Rofl and Shadowez have changed places as SK-tips.)VOTE: Shadowez

I don't get where Shadow jumped Rofl for SK, but here's the logic I explained above. Anen as SK votes me here. Shadow also had zero votes at this point and Anen wasn't being discussed as a lynch so this is far from an "anyone but me" attitude being displayed here.

So yeah, I'm back to thinking it's RC. Still want to see Anen check in and for RC to read the game, but I'm satisfied for now in the sense that I don't think I need to look at anything else specifically right now.

[Kmd4390]

 At that point there were more thing against Rofl than against Kmd. (Both of them could have responded my posts and it hasn't happened

Anen, I missed something of yours?

Actually your interactions with BBT weren't all that bad. I realized it after reading your ISO. Although, as I said, I might say this only because of knowing that you're not Mafia.

They were pretty bad actually. But it doesn't matter now.

I know that I'm speaking against myself, but your logic is wrong. He was my top SK read at that time and my 2nd Mafia read.

But if you were SK, wouldn't it make sense to push your top mafia read? Why would SK want their second read lynched unless it was a compromise?

In that game it was known that the SK was II. Here, we don't have the same knowledge. I think an II-SK and a BP-SK would play quite differently. Thats'why I asked that question long ago and a pity that Rofl never answered it.

Ah. So you're saying the threat of NK isn't a guarantee which results in different play. Gotcha.

? Or was 1296 for that?

I wanted clarity on your shadow read and how naturally it did or did not evolve. I'm pretty satisfied with what I found.

[Kmd4390]

Not much to say to those RC quotes, no. I don't think I've pushed any garbage obviously and if I was looking for a "pushover", I wouldn't be sitting here wishing we still had Rofl who is anything but.

What long post? The Iso?

In general, most probably I'm the one who'll pick either of you in the end, so it's no surprise that I'm trying to salvage as much info as I can. We have a replacement and it doesn't make the things easier. (Nothing personal, RC.) If I misvote, it's basically an instant loss.

Why don't you think either of us will vote you?

[Kmd4390]

So, let's see Kmd now.

Day1

1. Voted for Acryon in 38 as a "super secret scumread". Either a joke or ??? (The next post, 69 confirmed the first one. He also scumread AI there.)
2. An early townread on Shadow,

"One, I'm looking for scum. Two, shadow is thinking along the same lines as me."

Pigeon poop. (Unfortunately, this would be a Mafia-tell not an SK-tell.)
3. Townreading Kop, Lowell and me (lesser extent) in 100. Scumreading AI and Lucky there.
4. Voting for AI in 201.
5. Picking up several interactions in his next posts. (AI, Yos, BBT mostly. Others too, including Rofl and me.)
6. Eg. 492. Here we can see plenty of interactions again, but with different players. So far it seems he tries to sort everyone out. Could be a genuine townie but, unfortunately, the SK needs to do the same too...
7. In BBT/Yos, he founds Yos better in 545. (I don't remember my own opinion at that point. Maybe I wasn't around.) He might have been moving with the crowd here.
8. Then he was missing for a while. Around 572. (If Rofl's recent missing is not a tell, this is not a tell either.)
9. Disbelieving AI's townslip. 683 and around. Also, mentioning it might have been SK-slip. WTF! He told in 698

"I personally don't consider SK until there is an extra kill."

– however, he was involved in talking about that SK-slip just before!
10. Kept talking about the same things later, eg. 714. (Either he Nightkilled AI because of thinking he was scum or wanted to frame him later as an SK? Both are possible.)
11. Launching the TexCat-wagon in 743. Pretty much out of nowhere. His reasoning came later (in 758). Having reread it it's still weak. I could see an II-SK here. (If TexCat flips scum, hooray, if not, he may get an Investigation for the push.) 766:

"I'm actually more confident she's scum now than I ever was on Always. And it's funny because in some ways Always makes perfect sense as a buddy with her and in some ways it makes no sense at all but that's a post-flip discussion."

Weak, weak, weak...
12. Ghhh, that "low hanging fruit" pigeon poop from TexCat. 765 and nearby. Actually I cared very little about that at that time but seeing it again... it was terrible. This makes the whole TexCat-story much less viable. (I mean, much less as an SK-tell.)
13. About BBT, in 814:

"The part of me that thinks he's scum is the paranoid part of me that knows he's a good player and that's shitty for a reason to lynch. If he's town, he's an asset and this setup has a possible cop so he could be confirmed if he's town and a confirmed town BBT could do some serious damage."

– It would be a brilliant tell... if we were searching for a Mafia. I can see no SK-reason for obstructiong the BBT-wagon and pushing the TexCat-wagon, unfortunately. Also, it's strange that he was talking about Investigation tips (on BBT) and Rofl only cared about my similar posts later.
14. No, cut it out, he said he would be okay with the BBT-lynch, 850. And Lowell too... Moving with the crowd? (Although he posted quite a lot of town-things about Lowell soon.)

That's Day1.
If he's the SK, he might have Nightkilled AI because he thought AI was scum. But. There were very few interactions with Kop and ABR and ...he wasn't sorting them either. If something, this might tell us that he Nightkilled one of them (so he didn't even needed to sort them). Although these are mere assumptions and neither Kop nor ABR had too many interaction partners.

Day2

15. That big 1016. Actually everyone was so obsessed with BBT that we missed the fact that Lowell really fitted the picture as scum. Could have come from a town or a scumhunting SK too. (Also, the more I think about it the more absurd it is that Lucky's claim could have been an SK-fake. Basically he signed his own death sentence with the claim. This has nothing to do with the game right now, though.)
16. Actually (1043) Kmd was NOT derailing the BBT-wagon actively. Maybe I think it know only because we know he's not Mafia. (? – Sometimes knowing the answer makes everything much clearer, I guess.)
17. 1052

"That info points to Lowell or BBT in my opinion. I chose Lowell. I am fully aware how bad I'd look if BBT flips scum."

– This would have been an unnecessary risk-taking as SK. I mean the whole post.
18. BUT, in the same post!

"Looking at dead players, I was right about ABR, but not confident in that. I was right about Kop, but again not very confident."

He posted twice about ABR (calling him town) and ...maximum half time about Kop (calling a post from him nonsense). So, that actually hadn't happened!
19. He starts moving towards the BBT-wagon 1101, which might or might not have been genuine. (Missing a scum-wagon would have hurt an SK too... although, hammering didn't change a lot.)
20. 1103

"I'd be shocked if scum didn't kill Lucky tonight, especially if they are down to one member. This isn't exactly bad for town though even if Lucky flips vig because at least we don't have to deal with all of the WIFOM around him that way."

– OhWTF! Did he kill Lucky? (Whom did Lucky Nightkill then?)

By the way, the Lowell-Nightkill makes perfect sense if he's the SK. (An attempt to remove the last scum, fits an II-SK profile.) There's a chance for a Lucky-Nightkill, see above.

Day3

21. 1127

"Rofl, this isn't going to convince you of anything but I'm better scum than to have kept you alive twice when you would have been my optimal kill. Unless you are a BP SK who thinks I shot you N1 or something."

– ??? Either a reaction test or distancing from the SK-role?
22. 1129. VCA, mixing the Shadowez-Rofl-Aneninen names in different patterns (who's Mafia, who's SK). Totally townreading Acryon. (So, he had the same motivation in the Acryon-Nightkill as Rofl did.) The ending is... Shadowez is SK, Rofl or Aneninen Mafia. Rofl ended up with a similar conclusion.
23. Being against NoLynch in 1134. I liked it and I still like it.
24. Talking about a Massclaim in 1136... but he didn't start it. Same as Rofl.
25. Crystallizing his reads in 1143 as Shadow and Rofl. (Still thinking Shadow is SK, though, see his next post.)
26. In 1155 trying to convince me that Rofl could be scum. This would be a perfect scummy post... again, from a Mafia. Shyt.
27. 1186

"I hope we lynch shadow and he flips mafia lol. I think he's SK though."

– this distrubs me. I can't put my finger on it, but it still does.
28. 1202

"Did you ever say why you're so sure I'm the SK you weren't sure existed coming into the day? Or are you hoping for the easy lynch and a kill on opposing scum tonight for the win?"

– this was an answer for Shadowez... it might have had a story behind but now I don't have time to find it.
29. 1220 – Self-meta. May have come from an SK but from a townie too.
30. I know this was Day4, but that 1229 seems to be "overdriven fake". I mean, it could be fake because there are too many emotions in it. Or how can I say.

________

TL;DR. There are some things here, too. Namely: 9., 11., 14., 18., 20., 27. and 30. There are some things which are common in both ISO-s (eg. talking a lot about massclaiming but not doing so). As for the ISO, a bit fewer things than they were in Rofl's ISO. If Kmd's the SK, I can see an explanation for all the Nightkills.
But, there are quite a few things which are weakening all the tells. Eg. Launching the TexCat-wagon for weak reasons might be a tell, but derailing an ongoing strong wagon is an anti-tell. Also, things like 12. takes out a lot of this story. Another example. 18. may be strong, but it comes from 17., which would have been an unnecessary thing from the SK.
And the final thing why I think Rofl is the SK. Kmd

got involved in plenty of 1vs1 interactions throughout the game

. Trying to sort out everyone can be faked, but

he has never gone for being popular or gaining town credit for anything

. Rofl's interactions were much more "impersonal", especially on Day1/Day2.

That's all I could do.
I think I'll vote for Rofl but I want to see something from both of you before doing so.

I'm not 100% confident but I think I'm choosing the bigger percentage. If not, sorry townies!

________

Post-edit.

Mod

, I don't think that post above this one should be there at all!!!

1. Explained it later. It was AlwaysInnocent and I wanted to get a feel for his posting before making a decision on it.
2. Yep. In the early game I tend to like people who look at the same things I do. This would be true if I was SK as well though.
3-6. Correct
7. I had a hard time deciding on Yos vs BBT because they are both very good players. I had a slight lean towards Yos town and BBT scum for most of it, but always suspected people more than BBT.
8. If I'm "missing" it's usually because I'm at work. I do 16 hour days. Usually two or three in a row. And no internet at work. When I'm home in between I'm sleeping if I can.
9. There's different context. I don't go out of my way looking for SKs on Day 1 because it's damn near impossible to do. Always' "slip" wasn't anything, but the point was he could have been SK just as easily as town even if people did think it meant something. I know Always flipped town, but the whole townslip business was BS and it came from a player I was scumreading so of course I did everything I could to show why it's BS. Obviously, we know everything I could do wasn't enough but it's all for the best anyway considering he was town.
10. *shrug*. Maybe I'd have killed Always as SK, maybe not. Hard to say. In my last SK game I killed players who fit three criteria: 1. Could be scum, 2. Could vote me at some point, 3. Probably won't be lynched. I don't remember if Always suspected me (actually I think he did at some point) but he definitely fit the other two so I can't really disagree if you think I would have killed him.
11. I don't think my tex case was weak. It was strong enough to get five town votes.
12, 13. Ok
14. If I was "moving with the crowd", would I have started the tex wagon or just jumped on BBT. Think about it.
Day 1: ABR and Kop weren't very active so not many of us were doing much to sort them.
15: Meh. If a SK can convince town they are a vig, it's pretty solid. But you're right that in this setup it would have been bad play because had he survived to this point, the game would have been over already. You're also right that it's not very important right now.
16. Yeah. I should have been quicker to call BBT scum but for some reason I was always distracted by something else.
17. True
18. Huh? I had few mentions of Kop and ABR because the reads were weak (not confident) like I said. Not sure what the issue is here.
19. At that point, BBT was getting lynched no matter what we did and as much as I thought Lowell was scum, BBT made sense to.
20. I wanted scum to kill Lucky so we didn't have to sort whether he was vig or SK. Either one less mislynch or a dead SK. Win win. That would be the worst kill ever for a SK to make because he's the one distraction protecting them as a claimed vig.
Day 2: Sure, if I was SK, Lowell may have been someone I'd kill. Not Lucky though.
21. Neither. I legitimately felt insulted that Rofl thought I'd let him live if I was scum considering the way he was coming after me. It's easier to say "it's scum setting me up" or "stop with the WIFOM" than to argue with someone who is going to scum read you no matter what you say. That is a kill that would have needed to happen if I was SK or scum.
22. Pretty much. Just I was thinking Rofl over you for mafia.
23-26: k
27: meh. I felt like we were screwed because everyone thought I was mafia so if shadow flipped town or SK, the game ends in a town loss just because everyone is so sure I'm mafia. It was basically me thinking out loud after I played out the scenarios and shadow somehow being mafia was our only hope. I think I mentioned this before, but when it actually happened all I could do was laugh.
28- this was me realizing how survivalistic shadow had become.
29. Sure.
30. Not sure why it feels fake to you so not sure what to say.

TL;DR. There are some things here, too. Namely: 9., 11., 14., 18., 20., 27. and 30. There are some things which are common in both ISO-s (eg. talking a lot about massclaiming but not doing so). As for the ISO, a bit fewer things than they were in Rofl's ISO. If Kmd's the SK, I can see an explanation for all the Nightkills.But, there are quite a few things which are weakening all the tells. Eg. Launching the TexCat-wagon for weak reasons might be a tell,

Can you explain why you think a SK is likely to start a flashwagon near deadline? I mean, my reasons for doing it should make sense as either SK or town, but you said it "might be a tell" and I'm curious why.

And the final thing why I think Rofl is the SK. Kmd got involved in plenty of 1vs1 interactions throughout the game. Trying to sort out everyone can be faked, but he has never gone for being popular or gaining town credit for anything. Rofl's interactions were much more "impersonal", especially on Day1/Day2. 

Makes sense.

[Kmd4390]

Why the fuck even replace in with that attitude?

[Kmd4390]

This is why replacements suck in this situation. Because the only useful thing you can do is read the game and give thoughts but I think it's pretty clear you won't be doing that.

Replacing out is probably pointless right now. You'd leave someone else in the exact same spot. Rofl still being here would be best case.

[Kmd4390]

Who you think is SK based on the past 53 pages, why, and a vote when you're ready. We'd have more to talk about that way. Unfortunately, time is running out though.

[Kmd4390]

If I was rushing you, why would I want you to read the entire thread?

How does "when you're ready" feel like rushing you?

I mean yeah, the deadline is there but that doesn't mean you can't actually do things.

[Kmd4390]

Why are you insinuating that I haven't done things?I've read more than 30 of the game and read the ISOs of both of you and my predecessor.

I don't read minds. You didn't really tell us a whole lot about your thoughts on that 30 pages.

I can't wallpost like you do because I don't have full understanding of the gamestate crystallized like you guys do.You're asking me to keep up with people who've played this game for months when I've been here for two days.If neither of you have realized that the other is scum, why are you expecting me to have it instantly?

You should have a feel for it after you finish reading. I'm not expecting you to pick "instantly". Just. You're talking like you're just completely stuck because of the fact that you replaced in rather than playing from the start and I'm kind of like "why is this dude here?".

[Kmd4390]

No, I'm stuck because the way you're trying to engage me in the game is through walls of text referencing 50 pages of content that I haven't all read.

Once you've read it, that's the best thing you can do.

Talk to me about what's happened since I replaced in and I have a full understanding of and you can get something useful out of me.

What has happened since you've replaced in is Anen and I have been sorting through stuff you haven't read yet. How's that useful regarding you right now?

You're asking me to go post by post on both of your ISOs?

No. But I'm sure you have opinions on some of what you've read. Even if it's not conclusive I'd like to discuss it and know exactly what you're thinking. It's easier to read you that way and if you're town that's the way you'll convince me of that and sway my vote.

I am town.If you're town and you can't communicate on my wavelength and I get lynched I'm probably the one who gets bitched out for it but you still lose as well.I feel like you're talking at me and not talking to me.

Nah. This feels very AtE and I should probably ignore it but if you're town and get lynched, Anen just played better than the town and deserves the win. I won't be playing the blame game in that case.

[Kmd4390]

You're not talking to me.
You're making a show for Adenine.

Actually, I'm responding to your posts. That's all. When you sit there going "I'm stuck, what do I do", naturally I'm going to reply "read the game then talk to us". If I vote you, I'd rather Anen consider Rofl's play than yours. There's just more information there. Obviously your play factors in, but not nearly as much as Rofl's.

No effort to get through to me. Just bitching at me for failing to have complete mastery of 53 pages of content I wasn't in game for.

Again, just responding. There's still time.

This is just so scummy.First there's the discrediting of AtE.I am trying to get through to you. You are making it incredibly difficult for me to do so and I get the impression that you're just trying to set me up for a vote.Why should you ignore it, regardless of my alignment?

Well, go back and read it. Even if you didn't mean for it to come off that way, tell me it doesn't sound AtE. And of course it's difficult. You are in a spot where the only way to contribute in a meaningful way is to do a shit ton of reading first. It's what you signed up for when you replaced into a game with approximately 50 pages. You had to know it's not easy, but I'd assume it's what you were looking for when you told Zar you'd do it.

Nuh-uh. This is really bad.You talked like you were mad at me for low effort before. I can't imagine someone talking the way you are not being open about the fact that they'd be pissed at me for not engaging them in the way they intend to be engaged, as stupid as you expecting me to play in that manner would be.

If you think I'm saying we should hand the game to AnenSK, you're just taking my comments out of context. All I'm saying is that if it's him and we don't catch him, then well played on his part.

Like the difference between you and Adenine right now is that you're trying to imply that it's scummy that I don't have a full understanding of all the material in this game and that he's annoyed and/or frustrated by it but is trying to sort me based on what he's able to.

I haven't once said you are scum for not reading yet. All I've said is that I'm looking forward to you catching up and giving input so we can start a meaningful process and talk about this game. If you're ready to vote though, I take it you aren't interested in doing that?

If this is just going to continue then if we're both town there's no way we're winning together.

Meh. You've got a couple days without me. I go back to work in a few hours. I'll get there a little after 2pm and stay until 7am and then the same thing tomorrow. Then sleep after and probably won't get to do much on the forums until late Thursday night after my wife leaves for work.

What I can't do is find much traction here, and that's not a scumtell by any means and you shouldn't be treating it like one.

I agree that that's a point in your favor if it's true. But you're saying this 11 minutes after implying you're ready to vote so Iunno man.

I am trying to sort you. If you're town, make the same effort with me.

Of course. If I was sure of anything, I'd have voted already.

[Kmd4390]

RC, I was waiting for you, not going against you. I wanted your thoughts. You never shared them. You just read the game (apparently. This is news to me) and voted. You keep saying I should have engaged you. Yeah? About what? You didn't give reasoning why I was scum. You didn't give reasoning why Anen was town. Obviously, as you keep saying and somehow thinking I disagree, there's nothing you can say about Rofl's play. Had you told us why you came to your decision based on what was in the thread, maybe we could have talked a bit more.

That being said, Anen played a great game and absolutely deserves the win and I don't think there's much chance we would have BOTH lynched him over each other regardless of what we did. My issue was that both slots looked town. The way Anen presented the whole "I thought I could confirm myself but never mindit's pigeon poop" was great and it's probably the one big thing that stopped me from voting him every time I wanted to.