Open 621 (C9++): The ZAR SHOW S1 Holiday Special - OVER!

[acryon]

/confirm

[acryon]

At least one scum in ABR, Anen, Kmd and Yosarian.

Probably exactly one actually.

Guaranteed.

Because it was all too similar. Scum trying to blend in by copying other confirms and trying not to stand out.

hi, this is dumb. random chance says there is likely to be one scum in a group of four out of the thirteen players in this game, but your reason is bad.

vote: toffee

Agreed. VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[acryon]

Yeah, actually ABR replaced into a game for me where I was scum and killing it, and he came in guns blazing and totally blew it.

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

[acryon]

So you think he is most likely scum?

At this point it's the scummiest thing I've seen. I have no problem with vote jumping, but he doesn't seem to have put any reasoning into his votes, and is just latching onto the wagons that are forming.

RVS?

[acryon]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kmd
super secret maybe scum read???

Yep.

KMD, was that "super secret scumread" a joke too? 

Nope.

Acryon, are you just gonna agree and sheep all game or is that an early Day 1 thing?

Shadow gets town points for noticing the same thing I did.

Nope. That's not how I play at all, but it's page 3 so in the first few I tend to say whatever and see what happens. In your and shadowez cases, it seems like you're trying too hard. I don't know why anyone would get townpoints for pointing out something so obvious. It's clear in both of my votes I was jumping on something already there.

[acryon]

Rofl's post in 32 that you latched onto didn't feel like an RVS vote, nor did the way you agreed in 36. The ABR vote had a little bit more of a lighthearted feel to it, but was still a strange transition.

Eh it was still mostly RVS. Certainly no real conviction behind either.

[acryon]

People i don't currently want to lynch becsuse they've done something i like at some point
Lowell
roflcopter
Albert B. Rampage
AlwaysInnocent
kmd4390

What has each done that you liked?

[acryon]

In general, at this point in the game, i tend to townread people who are active and doing intresting things. None of those are especally strong reads, but they all look like they're actually scumhunting in their own way.

You didn't like what shadowez was doing? He seemed to be scum-hunting the most of almost anyone (legit or not is another question).

[acryon]

I like you Anen. Regarding me being a wagon-hopper, I tend to switch up my style based on what the town seems to need, especially D1. Take that with a grain of salt of course.

[acryon]

I am using information that I have gotten from reading your ISO, and what I gather from this information, you are trying to look actively scum hunting, when most of it is just filled with random votes, and trying to look busy.

This seems like an absurd accusation this early. What you just listed is like the definition of the first three to five pages of most games.

[acryon]

I am using information that I have gotten from reading your ISO, and what I gather from this information, you are trying to look actively scum hunting, when most of it is just filled with random votes, and trying to look busy.

And that final comment, that is an obvious statement that anybody can make, it's whether you will actually back this up is another matter. And it's one of those comments that comes across as saying keep me alive, I will show you what I can do.

I'd like to think that too, but is this your first RVS? Did you truly expect everyone to be gung-ho scumhunting from page 3?

[acryon]

Don't have a lot of time so doing a quick read-through and just commenting on a few things that jumped out to me in one way or another.

Seriously, figuring out who looks townie and then lynching someone who doesn't is the single most effective way to find scum, especially early. People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

But shouldn't scum look like town if they are competent? I think D1 especially, town are just as likely to look null as scum.

Not getting a good vibe from his posting in general though.

You say this, but you only really commented on his statements about you, which makes it feel OMGUSy. What issues do you have with the other things he was saying? Or what's the "general" issue you have?

I don't think roflcopter is "super-town" by the way. His strong positions are based on very little. I wouldn't vote for him, but I'm not yet convinced he is town. He threatened to shoot me this early if he were a vigilante, which is just reckless and bad play (if it was a serious and not just to threaten me).

A little context here: rofl is an alt of a long-time poster. He uses the rofl alt when he wants to play with a certain playstyle; hyperagressive, short posts, bloodthirsty without explaining anything, lynches without warning. Basically the "baby jesus" or "internet stranger" playstyle, although probably half of you don't remember those players. And as a playstyle, it works well for him.

In that context, his posts so far look good to me.

I will say, though, that he can play like this as scum just as well, and he's very skilled at it, so while I have a town read on him at the moment, I very easily could be wrong, he is very tricksy.

So what is the point of even saying this if it means he could be either scum or town?

At this point it's the scummiest thing I've seen. I have no problem with vote jumping, but he doesn't seem to have put any reasoning into his votes, and is just latching onto the wagons that are forming.

Do you believe wagon hopping/forming wagons to have negative utility during RVS? If so, why?

Not at all, as it assists in forming patterns and making initial impressions of people both by what any individual is doing, along with reactions to those people. An argument could be made that it's townier than vote parking, but then people can just use that to try for meta.

Isn't this the reason you voted me? Actually looks someone asked you about it and you answered:

OK, then I'm not sure I understand your problem with Acryon's earlier play?

It wasn't the wagon hopping in particular, it was randomly jumping onto building wagons with no reasoning of his own.

Bad answer.

I

think

roflcopter is town. I think it is hard to fake this kind of... well... bad play.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

(Not saying that roflcopter is stupid. I think he is a smart guy, but his overconfidence causes stupidity in this case. He does not seem to consider the possibility that I am genuinely annoyed as town.)

Do you really believe that of someone who has been playing for 8 years?

I like you Anen. Regarding me being a wagon-hopper, I tend to switch up my style based on what the town seems to need, especially D1. Take that with a grain of salt of course.

Can you explain why town needed those votes?

Well I'm not going to pretend like my every single post and decision I ask myself "what does

this

town need?" But regarding my overall playstyle, if things are moving slowly I will try to speed them up. If it seems like RVS is dragging, I'll try to get us out. If things are going too fast and getting muddled, I'll play things a little more calmly rather than add to the noise. In this specific case, it seemed like the best course was to hop on some other votes, because this seemed like the type of group that may jump on things like that (which it was).

[acryon]

Also VOTE: Yosarian

[acryon]

Acryon, so those votes were what town needed according to your answer, but when asked to elaborate that's no longer the case or...? Because if not, why say itthe first time? I asked initially because it had the feel of being made up on the spot rather than a description of what you were thinking at the time and this answer from you solidifies my thought on that?

Isn't it clear that there is a difference between "I'm going to play a little fast and loose with my play and votes early on since it seems like this group will react to it" and deciding on each vote "This is what town needs in this moment". I will certainly prescribe to the former, but the latter is a bit too calculated for even me. Feel free to re-read my last post if you want further clarification here.

No. That is absolutely not the same thing.

Uh huh.

Yos, even then I'm having trouble seeing how scum can take control of the game by not being the more aggressive players. Can you elaborate why on Page 10 with no flips yet and a wagon on you, you feel you are "playing well"? And why you think rofl and myself are "controversial"?

Eh, it's a fairly effective strategy for scum to sit back, especially early on and let the town tear each other up.

Bad answer.

What makes it a bad answer? Things aren't black and white. You weren't moving onto wagons to pressure people, you weren't starting wagons. You jumped on a wagon that looked like it was gaining steam, then when that one died off and a new one started, you jumped on that one. Both votes were basically naked, and did not look like honest RVS votes. As I said earlier, it was the scummiest thing I had seen, but I've liked your contributions since.

Your answer feels like quite a jump. Describing my two (very clearly) RVS votes the way you did is pretty disingenuous if not scummy. You're either looking for something that's not necessarily there, or you're trying to push something you know isn't there. I'm inclined to believe it's a bit of both at the moment.

Do you really believe that of someone who has been playing for 8 years?

That's Applying to Authority, or whatever the name of that logical fallacy is.
(Generally speaking, the tune of your 209 is something I've never seen from you before, and right now I don't know what I should think of it.)

I don't agree. If you look at the context, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to not assume that a veteran player is posting something because they are being "stupid". If you want to clear a new player based on the premise of them not understanding a situation, then that's a little more passable, but I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that a veteran player is less likely to play stupidly. Regarding your other comment, I told you all I like to switch things up

Sorry all for the overall lack of content from me. I'm glad I'm getting to at least post some mild catch-ups in my V/LA, but I'll be full-bore after my V/LA ends.

[acryon]

Isn't it clear that there is a difference between "I'm going to play a little fast and loose with my play and votes early on since it seems like this group will react to it" and deciding on each vote "This is what town needs in this moment". I will certainly prescribe to the former, but the latter is a bit too calculated for even me. Feel free to re-read my last post if you want further clarification here.

Uhhhh. You were the one who said you do what you think town needs when you were asked about those votes. I asked why and you suddenly had nothing. To be perfectly honest, I'm having trouble following this (it's 8am and I just got out of work after getting there at 2pm) but it seems like you're all over the place on it and not talking about the same thing I'm trying to talk about.

Eh, you're missing my point. To be it simply, it's the difference between playing a playstyle based on what the town needs, and making every specific action based on what town needs. If you can't tell the difference based on that, then just forget it.

I think I just explained that?

He's trying to scumhunt, he doesn't care how his scumhunting makes him look, he's aggressive, he's not being cautious. Those are all town traits.

The main difference between town and scum is that town's #1 priority is to find scum, while scum's #1 priority is not being lynched. When a person starts taking risks, being aggressive, and sticking their necks out to try to find scum, apparently without caring how it makes them look, that's a town tell.

Fantastic. Now, tell me why these tells apply to AI and not me? Because I'm not seeing consistency in your reads.

Consistency is a scum tell.

Although I wouldn't say consistency is definitively a scum-tell, I would say that scum are generally more likely to be consistent than town.

Not really WIFOM. Person A calls person B town, person B votes person A. Person B is clearly does not care about trying to stay on person As good list. Which makes me thin AI cares more about scumhunting then survival..

This makes sense. Only way this is wrong is if the two are both scum. And if they are, there is no reason for scum-Yos to comment on it like he did. Yos is town people.

UNVOTE:

Eh, it's a fairly effective strategy for scum to sit back, especially early on and let the town tear each other up.

Although I told it someone else before, I'm telling it again: it's not the

only

strategy. Some players start out agressive as scum too.

Definitely agree.

Unsure about who I want a vote on at the moment. Will put one down tomorrow if I can.

[acryon]

Just popping in to say I am still alive and you can expect a lot from me starting Monday. Unfortunately still don't have much time since I'm on vacation with the family.

[acryon]

Just checking in to say that I am back from V/LA and will be doing a read-through today.

[acryon]

I was starting to come around to this too until I saw the votecount. You think we'd get 8 votes on scum? Usually seems like one of two leading wagons is scum, but not both.

bad argument appeal to votecount doesn't mean shit they're both being scummy so sure we could have eight votes on scum
so i clearly can not choose the wine in front of me

Illogical or not, I agree with Lowell that it seems highly unlikely that we have 8 votes on scum. How many games have you played in where the two leading wagons on D1 both ended up being scum? I'll tell you how many I've been in where that happened: Zero. Not impossible, but very unlikely.

BBT feels town, AI does not. Anen felt fairly town but I also didn't like what BBT caught in 576. Rofl feels like wrong town. Yos is town. I think I like kmd. I don't like texcat. Others I'm less sure on.

[acryon]

acryon says ai does not feel town, yet i feel like wrong town. error error does not compute.

I think you're wrong about BBT.

[acryon]

Why am I not town, Acryon?

443 is nothing. Posts like 536 and 543 don't feel town. The former feels like buddying and the latter is a crappy absolute conclusion. It seems a lot of your posts are concerned with scumteams which seems questionable to speculate on so heavily without a single flip. It just feels like you faux-scumhunting while also leaving your options open for pushes.

[acryon]

acryon y u no vote for ai?

Bad experiences with people quickhammering.

[acryon]

How many games have you played in where the two leading wagons on D1 both ended up being scum?

Erm, I've seen a game like that. There were a counterwagon on a scum, because the main wagon would have hit the Mafia Encryptor. Mini1601 or something like that.

One whole game? You're just proving my point that it's incredibly unlikely.

BBT feels town, AI does not. Anen felt fairly town but I also didn't like what BBT caught in 576. Rofl feels like wrong town. Yos is town. I think I like kmd. I don't like texcat. Others I'm less sure on.

What's your problem with TexCat. As for your other reads, well-okay. Oh, why Rofl is "wrong town"?

Rofl is wrong town because BBT is town. Regarding texcat, actually in re-reading through texcat to see what I felt was off, I realize I misread something because I actually don't not like him.

[acryon]

That's because you don't know the history between the two of us.

Scum!Anen does not like playing against town BBT.

This is not a good reason to town-read him. Lots of WIFOM involved.

[acryon]

If BTT is scum, Anen is likely town. Because if BTT is scum, then that thing where BTT townread Anen out of nowhere for a terrible reason while there was no pressure on Anen a few pages ago was probably an attempt to buddy. I doubt a scum would point a giant arrow at their partner like that right after they get into serious trouble.

Hmmm... Something's not right here and I don't know what.

It's a lot to say about something pre-flip, especially when BBT isn't even the closest to the chopping block.

Yosarian and KMD still seem somewhat scummy to me, so I am probably misreading some people, since I am also scumreading BBT, Aneninen, Lucky and Lowell. (After all, there cannot be more than 3 scum.)

Have you read the Setup at all?

This looks an awful lot like a townslip to me.

[acryon]

Now I think it is almost

definitely

a townslip.

[acryon]

Why is Aneninen town because of that?

I was talking about you.

[acryon]

Yep. Get off the AI train folks.

[acryon]

Why is Aneninen town because of that?

I was talking about you.

But you were quoting Aneninen. Never mind.

I don't even know why my post was inaccurate. I have checked the setup again and I only count 3 Mafia max. What am I missing?

I was talking to AI, and indicating that your unclear understanding of the setup means you are most likely town. And its correct that there are max 3 scum, but there is also a 50% chance to be a SK.

Scum Roles
TTTTTTT = Goon + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
TTTTTT = Goon + Godfather
TTTTT = Goon + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
TTTT = 2 Goons + Roleblocker
TTT = 2 Goons + Roleblocker, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
TT = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather
T = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
0 Ts = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather

[acryon]

Not a townslip. He's right...

He's not right. As town, you essentially consider there to be a possible 4 opposing players, not 3.

[acryon]

And if he is somehow scum making this weird slip and not understanding the setup, then at the very least we can rule out the first 3 scum scenarios in the list I quoted.

[acryon]

Yes, but you can't really make sense of the SK. There are no associations, which makes the role kind of stupid.

Ok sure, but this is D1 and certainly everyone's list of possible scum are not based on associations; that would be very stupid.

[acryon]

But he's town. I mean come on, HE IS ARGUING WITH MY STATEMENT ABOUT HIM BEING TOWN when he is on the brink of being lynched.

[acryon]

Yes, but you can't really make sense of the SK. There are no associations, which makes the role kind of stupid.

Ok sure, but this is D1 and certainly everyone's list of possible scum are not based on associations; that would be very stupid.

It influences the way scum interact with other scum, or even town. The SK doesn't have to worry about associations. They can basically play like town if they want (ignoring human psychology). The Mafia cannot do this; they need each other to win, or if they bus, they will have to think about how to do that in a convincing manner. It is much more tricky to be Mafia.

Not really. SK is definitely trickier than mafia since they have to avoid looking too townie or they'll be killed by the mafia.

[acryon]

Let it go KMD. The guy is town. If you really have such a bone to pick with him, let it roll and follow up tomorrow. Lynching him after this exchange would be mindbogglingly dumb. Don't look this gift horse in the mouth today.

[acryon]

Not a townslip. He's right...

He's not right. As town, you essentially consider there to be a possible 4 opposing players, not 3.

He clearly meant mafia. And by your logic, it could be a SK slip as much as a town slip.

As town, when you are considering players you want to lynch, do you only think about mafia in a game where an SK is likely? No of course not, because for the sake of your wincon, SK and mafia both need to get lynched. And no, it would not be an SK slip, because if he was an SK he would almost definitely understand the setup since he would be the most confusing part of the setup in the first place.

[acryon]

I personally don't consider SK until there is an extra kill.

Why would town be less likely to consider SK than town anyway? Especially if there are only two of them? If anything, maybe he just slipped knowledge of a two man scum team. I think it's more likely he was actually going by the setup though and you are assuming he wasn't paying attention to it which is why this slip business is as dumb as 95% of all slip talk in mafia games.

Ironically though:

Okay. Acryon is probably town. Why waste such an easy lynch if he was Mafia?

^this is probably true if Always is town.

I agree that most slips are BS. I don't think this one is.

It's clear from what he's said that he did not think there was a two man scum team, and did not factor in SK into his 3 number. Get off it KMD; he's town. His response to all of this has made it painfully clear if the slip didn't do that itself.

[acryon]

I'm buying AI as town based on the last three pages.

And to prove I can flip-flop with the best of them, I'm also all-in on ABR's case on BBT. No one iso me, it's embarrassing.

UNVOTE: AI
VOTE: BBT

You agree with the slip BS or something else?

I'm buying ABR's overall logic, which I paraphrase as: jump in early, look town, tunnel on one person who isn't a major lynch target, sit back and profit.

I was asking about Always, not BBT.

Acryon, or he meant exactly what he said which is that there are at most three mafia. And I'd react the same way if someone's town case on me relied on me not paying attention when I was whether I was town or scum because that's just frustrating. This whole thing is completely null. Where is rofl when you need him...

Yeah because rofl is going to shed some light on this...

And sorry you're just wrong here. If you are town in a game where there are up to 4 people you want dead, why would you set a parameter of 3? It doesn't make sense.

[acryon]

Yosarian and KMD still seem somewhat scummy to me, so I am probably misreading some people, since I am also scumreading BBT, Aneninen, Lucky and Lowell. (After all, there

cannot be more than 3 scum

.)

I don't even know why my post was inaccurate. I have checked the setup again and I only count

3 Mafia max

. What am I missing?

I agree that most slips are BS. I don't think this one is.

It's clear from what he's said that he did not think there was a two man scum team, and did not factor in SK into his 3 number. Get off it KMD; he's town. His response to all of this has made it painfully clear if the slip didn't do that itself.

Maybe I missed it, cause it's not clear to me. Can you point me to where AI says he doesn't think there was a two man team? I don't see how 3 max excludes a two man team. I'm not seeing the slip.

KMD was saying that if anything, he slipped that there was a 2 man scum team, and I'm not sure how he did that. That was my point. 3 max doesn't exclude a two man team, but KMD was implying that somehow the phrasing AI used could possibly be a slip for a two man scum team.

[acryon]

If everyone wants to just ignore his original comment and disregard the idea of it as a slip, that's fine, because his responses to all of this were infinitely more town-confirming than the slip was.

[acryon]

I love how whenever anyone indicates a town feeling about AI he always feeds them a treat of encouragement. That's not scum at all.

He did this but not before arguing with me about why he didn't actually slip...

For the latecomers.
It's not the slip in itself, it could have been faked, too.
It's his REACTIONS. It was obvious that Acryon had been talking about him, yet AI was still thinking that Acryon had been thought I had been scumslipped and he kept doubting that slip... which had never ever existed.

Just want to echo this since honestly we can throw out the "townslip" at this point if we want to and just look at the reactions.

I want the slow, detailed version, or I wouldn't have asked.

Just read the thread...

[acryon]

Do we really not have seven people scumreading Always now?

=/

Hopefully not.

[acryon]

Your scummyness is public knowledge

Pedit Omg that scum threat

Given we aren't lynching AI today, who are we lynching?

[acryon]

Do we really not have seven people scumreading Always now?

=/

Why? You still want to see me lynched?

Doesn't seem smart for scum to do. People will be reading your posts afterwards and you will be implicated.

Your correct assessment of the setup hasn't changed my read, no.

You really don't find his reactions to me calling his post a townslip extremely town?

[acryon]

No. Your towncase relies on him misreading the setup when he didn't. Based on his earlier posts, pride is important to him. I forget details, but he accused someone of thinking he was dumb or something.

No it doesn't. My towncase on him relies on his responses.

Pedit: And this is where a bit of gut and experience comes in. The way he questioned things did not feel at all like scum fabricating.

Your scummyness is public knowledge

Pedit Omg that scum threat

Given we aren't lynching AI today, who are we lynching?

You guys are probably going to lynch bbt. The only positive I see from that is it won't drag that argument into tomorrow.

If you meant to ask me who my next desired wagon would be, between Lowell and ABC.

I don't know that I like a bbt lynch.

[acryon]

Hmm. In my mind, Texcat made a lot more posts than she did. She seems to be lurking, which is scummy. I'm not sure how she plays as town, but she should post more so that we have more to read her by.

This post is really weird. The statement "In my mind, Texcat made a lot more posts than she did" seems to imply that in the smaller amount of posts she is making, she actually is providing enough content to have an impression on you. This doesn't sound like lurking, or even active lurking.

Acryon, you think BBT is town?

I'll put it this way: I'm not excited about a lynch on him. Much of his pushing feels like scumhunting. To be honest there isn't anybody I'm happy about lynching at the moment, which I'll admit has some to do with my absence for much of the day. I won't claim there aren't some sketchy things that BBT has done, but I'm not optimistic about a scum flip.

[acryon]

Texcat ISO:
ISO 0-3: completely null
4: pointless question. Posting for the sake of posting.
5: overexplaining the nothingness of her vote on me + asked BBT about confirmations
6: Not sure if this is a soft attack on ABR or lightly questioning Yos. Either way, I don't feel like Tex's heart is in it
7: a prod dodge
8: her big catch up says no read on ABR, Yos' playstyle is ok, Yos vs BBT isn't town vs town (but doesn't take a side) because gut, and asks Always for reads. This is kind of empty feeling for all of the words in the post. 15 pages in and I still don't have a clue on any of her reads.
9: this was the post I expressed problems with earlier. She says BBT is only focused on Yos which was only true in his posts made in one RL day up to that point, so it looks like an excuse to scum read him rather than a reason. But notice she still hasn't voted BBT or anyone else at that point. And then there's the question she asked to make sure Always was townreading her.
10-12: I don't have an issue with her Kop vote.
13: I asked Tex for thoughts on BBT's entire ISO other than Yos stuff. Her thoughts are that she agrees it's not all a tunnel and tunneling isn't scummy. Again, that's weak and empty. I'd think it would be easy to say more than that about BBT's ISO.
14: After she JUST SAID that BBT isn't tunneling and that tunneling isn't protown OR scummy, she sheeps Yos and quotes him saying that BBT's tunnel is fake to look protown. WTF? Horse shit.
15: Questions BBT's confidence. K.
16: wants to "resolve" BBT vs Yos. Sounds like she's capitalizing on their issues with each other rather than hunting scum between them. I bet if Yos was the one being wagoned, her vote would be on him, not BBT, if both are town.
17-18: sheeping acryon on Always "townslipping"

Basically, she's playing the careful, cautious, in the background agreeing game with a hint of opportunism and active lurking. She doesn't seem at all interesting in finding scum. I think she's worried about her own appearance. It's textbook scum mentality.

You went from "let's lynch AI" to "let's lynch texcat; she is textbook scum"? You have a shocking amount of open and shut cases ready to go.

[acryon]

Hmm. In my mind, Texcat made a lot more posts than she did. She seems to be lurking, which is scummy. I'm not sure how she plays as town, but she should post more so that we have more to read her by.

This post is really weird. The statement "In my mind, Texcat made a lot more posts than she did" seems to imply that in the smaller amount of posts she is making, she actually is providing enough content to have an impression on you. This doesn't sound like lurking, or even active lurking.

Is the post weird or the idea that I have something in my mind that is contradictory to reality?

Both, although your clarification makes things make a bit more sense.

[acryon]

Pedit: And this is where a bit of gut and experience comes in. The way he questioned things did not feel at all like scum fabricating.

Maybe you feel your gut is stronger than mine, but do you have more experience than I do?

On this site? Probably not. Different people also see things different ways.

You went from "let's lynch AI" to "let's lynch texcat; she is textbook scum"? You have a shocking amount of open and shut cases ready to go.

It went from a gut read based on 1-2 posts to me actually pulling up her ISO and seeing just how bad it is. I'm actually more confident she's scum now than I ever was on Always. And it's funny because in some ways Always makes perfect sense as a buddy with her and in some ways it makes no sense at all but that's a post-flip discussion. But more importantly, what do

you

think of Tex? Is your take away from my post really just that I want her lynched? Nothing on the content of the post?

The first question I wanted to get answered was the one I asked. Now we can talk about the content, where I agree with you that her posts are fairly empty. It does feel like semi-active lurking.

[acryon]

i'm around to hammer toffee otherwise i'm leaving my vote on ai and not really paying attention overall right now

scum can kill me tonight i won't even be mad

Hm, who could have predicted that rofl wouldn't be helpful in this?

[acryon]

The first question I wanted to get answered was the one I asked. Now we can talk about the content, where I agree with you that her posts are fairly empty. It does feel like semi-active lurking.

It's not enough for a vote though?

I was hoping to hear what BBT had to say on all of this first, because I'm not sure a tex wagon is feasible this late, but I suppose it can't hurt.

VOTE: texcat

[acryon]

You are misunderstanding the direction of my confidence. I'm confident that wasn't a townslip. That doesn't make you scum. Yes, I'm still scumreading you but your recent posts aren't why.

Regardless of the reason(s) you are scumreading me, you are objectively wrong about me.

What are your quick reasons for voting BBT?

[acryon]

Bad experiences with people quickhammering.

Don't like this. This Day has been going on for long enough now and you're afraid of a 'quickhammer'? If AI flips scum, I'll be looking at you closely.

Maybe wait to read through before doing the rest of your comments; AI isn't getting lynched. And I've been in several games in my very short MS career that involved quickhammers, so I'm not interested. Considering what has popped up with AI, I'm quite glad I didn't vote and let a quickhammer happen.

[acryon]

Not sure I'm following you here AI. I also don't know what WIFOM you're referring to.

[acryon]

Yeah his reverse on BBT was quite terrible, and while "no one ISO me; it's embarrassing" is a good way to look like an endearing townie, it's not a good excuse.

[acryon]

Looks like everyone has Lowell on their compromise lynch list.

When everyone agrees that's not really a good thing.

This.

[acryon]

Shadow,

Things Lowell did that look town

-post 35 when he asked me about BBT. It looked like a genuine attempt to understand my position and to read BBT
-initially, I didn't like his vote on you for being try hard. But when he explained that it was more that you seemed to give off the impression of try hard rather than actually doing so, while I didn't agree with him, it showed he was looking for your motivations.
-I like his stance that lurker hunting is an easy out.
-post 184 shows that he is putting thought into questioning his reads, something that a lot of scum don't think to fake.
-I like a lot of his discussion about the wagons. For example, the fact that an Always/BBT team would mean eight people were voting scum. Unless that were actually the case, why would scum point it out?

Things Lowell did that look scummy

-I don't like his random assumption that BBT was town before the wagon popped up.
-His buying the whole "Always is town" thing and switch to BBT came out of nowhere and pretty much sucked ass.
-The BBT vote actually makes sense as a bus. I just realized this.

Do you think scum-AI and scum-Lowell are both on scum-BBT's wagon?

If all of these people have associated reads based on BBT-scum, then why is BBT not the lynch? I know I'm not super interested in it, but it seems like it would clear the most up and at worst it is as bad as a last-minute Lowell/texcat lynch.

[acryon]

This.

Very different when people are saying "meh they are scummy but not at the top of my list"

What else are people going to say when being essentially forced off the wagons they were on and onto another just before deadline?

[acryon]

Naaah. Texcat is probably scum. This is exactly like her scum game.

Why did this not come up before?

[acryon]

Let's not do this. Doesn't it bother anyone that Kmd is the one who started this wagon?

Yes, KMD bothers me.

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

Oh so you're saying that I play the way I always play.

You're playing your scum game like your town game? That's impressive, given that the win conditions are the complete opposite of each other.

Eh, I tend to play my scum games relatively similar to the way I play my town games. You only need to deviate when it's absolutely necessary.

[acryon]

People think they do, but they don't. On the surface they may appear similar, but they are not.

I don't agree, which is why is why meta is BS. People can put themselves in the town mindset as scum and play exactly like a townie easily for at least a day or two at the least since the odds are so against town in finding scum early on.

[acryon]

What would I need an alibi for? I'm saying that comparing activity during the holidays to activity during normal workdays doesn't make sense.

You seem to be voting me strictly based on activity. I don't think that's a very good argument.

Agree with this.

[acryon]

I explained why I moved my vote.

Also I feel like I'm having this meta-discussion everywhere at once? Is it really your opinion that changing votes often is a scum move? Because my experience is that scum are less inclined to make enemies.

Lowell is probably town people.

Or he's copying the meta-discussion from games where he is actually town to this game, but meh.

I think you may have it too stuck in your head that scum need to play completely different games than when they are town. You can look at my past games to see this is not the case. This mindset is going to be dangerous for town going forward if you keep on it. Especially when we are talking about such small sample sizes to draw from.

[acryon]

I'll be around for another 5 hours or so, and will have a vote on one of the leading wagons at that time. I'm not interested in a NL any more than the next guy.

[acryon]

I'll be out for the weekend, so
VOTE: texcat.

[acryon]

VOTE: BBT

Tex looks town. Let's turn it around.

[acryon]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Has to be the vote here I think. The tex wagon looks like a textbook counterwagon after the AI one failed to combat the BBT wagon.

[acryon]

I still don't have enough time but I need to point out something even if it may make me look bad.

Yos, you mis-quoted the things in your 1008. Kop's 991 was an answer for Texcat's 754. I didn't take part in that conversation (although according to the quote it looks as if I had done).
Also, there were quite a couple of players thinking your argument with BBT had been town-vs-town, including me.

My current thoughts are coming later. BBT doesn't seem to be a bad lynch but I don't think we should end the Day so fast. I too need some time.

I agree with all of this.

[acryon]

I look at this and see a lot of confirmed town players voting you.

You know that doesn't mean anything.

[acryon]

I look at this and see a lot of confirmed town players voting you.

You know that doesn't mean anything.

Probably not. So I'm curious what he thinks he means, then...

Me too.

[acryon]

@Lucky: Why did you claim?

[acryon]

welp now that we've got all those lovely scum thoughts about how scummy everyone is we can get a ====[]

i like lucky the sk i agree with him a lot. good scumhunting sk!

Thanks rofl! Atleast we found a way to get along.

Acryon, why not?

Because the odds of us having a SK are

significantly

higher than us having 2 vig's. So now you've drawn suspicion as our vig, which will get you killed by scum or lynched by town.

[acryon]

Unfortunately don't have time to post until Monday still, but I'll be ready to go then.

[acryon]

VT here. I'm back so we can talk.

[acryon]

Assuming no Townie has lied, the Setup must be 2 Vigs; 2 Mafia Goons; 1 Mafia Roleblocker; SK.

I'll make a longer post later (hopefully tonight). Party because I don't have time right now, partly because I still need to think about what to post without giving ideas to the scums. A player profile (for the likelihood of being Mafia or SK, myself included) would be useful, though. I think.

Acryon, we need your reads.

... I made a post and posted it, but it appears as though it never went through.

I agree with Shadowez as SK. KMD seems likely mafia, but I think Shadowez is the preferred lynch for sure. Admittedly, I feel a bit out of my element since I've never played with an SK before, but I do think that a lot of the points Anen made regarding Shadowez feel very correct. Sorry I don't actually have a ton of time today to do any in-depth analysis, but if you have questions or a specific post you'd like me to take a look at, I'm more than happy to do that. I wish I could be of more help right now.

[acryon]

I hope we lynch shadow and he flips mafia lol. I think he's SK though.

This comment rubs me the wrong way. Feels very contrived.

[acryon]

A couple of points:

• Self-meta.
  
• WIFOM.
  
• Exaggeration.

FTFY.

[acryon]

I'm in on a Shadowez lynch. In addition to other reasons, like I commented on before, 1190 is unspeakably bad and I see no world where town makes that post.

[acryon]

VOTE: Shadowez

[acryon]

UNVOTE:

Eh I want to give people a chance to say something without a quickhammer.

[acryon]

I think your vote is fine. As long as we are at least L-2.

[acryon]

Anen, I do have another suspect. Remember? I said it's between you and Rofl but based on meta, you're probably town so Rofl is most likely to be mafia? Speaking of that, did you ever answer when I asked why you don't think he'd bus BBT?

Yeah, that might have happened. See my comment above.
My greatest caveat against Rofl bussing BBT is the Nightkill of Kop. Also, after the second Vig-claim the Mafia must have known the Setup. (Either 2 Vigs, or Lucky is SK and there's another PR.) Or am I wrong about it?

Theoretically scum could have though lucky was actually just a 1-shot Vig (VVV), which could allow for TTTT which is 2 Goons and a RB with no SK.

[acryon]

Last words Shaddowez?

[acryon]

So, it seems that all four of the remaining players unequivocally believe me to be the SK. Assuming that I am (or mafia, for that matter), 3 of you as town are in complete accord...that means that scum (or the SK) can sit back and watch an all town wagon. If I'm neither, that means that only two of you are actually wrong, and the third vote will be one of the others, who won't care about taking me out (no matter what alignment I am).

What is your point here?

Whoever scum is is going to be happy they aren't getting lynched and whoever is the SK will be happy they aren't getting lynched. That's about it. They don't know that anything is an all town wagon. If we are right or wrong about lynching the SK here, at least one anti-town role is going to be happy.

[acryon]

I'm saying it's unlikely that three townies, who don't

know

anything, are all absolutely in accord that any other player is a particular role. It's much more likely that only two are, and the third is someone who doesn't care (the SK), or does know (the mafia).

But that's actually not the end of the world, because even if two are in accord, it still means we are statistically 50/50 at getting an anti-town role. And how are SK and mafia functionally different at this point (in terms of their knowledge)?

[acryon]

Immense letdown. Roflcopter replacing out was really bad. The last day was awful. I caught Anenein Day 1. You guys need to step up.

It's tough because you're the one that caught Anen with the shot, but it's also your hyper-aggressive playstyle that led scum to kill you.

Good game everybody.