Open 624 Fire and Ice - Fire Mafia Wins

[Masquerade]

...And?

RVSing is normal.
You participate in RVS normally and don't have an established history of attacking it.

You called people out on the first page for doing RVS votes and asked them who their legitimate scumreads are, like they should have them. That's absolute nonsense.

Good point.

You're not really describing anything that actually relates to scum motivation either.
You're just pointing to a thing and saying "this is different!" without any sense of context. It seems rather silly.

Good point too.

Awkward and bizarre behaviour is scum indicative because you're uncomfortable playing scum and make weird plays trying too hard to look like you're scumhunting in pursuit of trying to look towny.
I have context; I've read a bunch of your games' RVSes. This is not normal at all.

Ok, I guess.

Shinobi gives me the feeling that he's trying to avoid being suspected. Which he's not doing a very good job at.

VOTE: Shinobi

[Masquerade]

Yes, I ended that sentence with a preposition.

[Masquerade]

If Shinobi was trying to avoid being suspected, why would he enter in a provocative way rather than RVSing like normal?

It's not the way he entered but how he dealt with the questions that he got about it. To me it seems more like he wanted to look useful with his questions, rather than reaction testing. Trying to look town by getting us out ofo RVS asap. When he got called out on that his responses were awkward imo.

Plus, saying you look like you're trying to blend in?

Did I say that?

Shinobi gives me the feeling that he's trying to avoid being suspected. Which he's not doing a very good job at.

No, not at all.

I agreed with most of Masquerade's post - more 'Shinobi is uncomfortable playing scum' than 'trying to avoid being suspected' though.

Yeah that's what I'm trying to say.

I'm liking Beeboy for town and having a growing scumlean on Aristo.

[Masquerade]

For everyone who missed my explanation of my scumread on Shinobi please reread here:

It's not the way he entered but how he dealt with the questions that he got about it. To me it seems more like he wanted to look useful with his questions, rather than reaction testing. Trying to look town by getting us out ofo RVS asap. When he got called out on that his responses were awkward imo.

Avoid being suspected by looking useful getting us out of RVS quickly. I'm saying Shinobi wanted to gain some towncred trying to launch us out of RVS. When he got questioned about them instead of backed up, he panicked and got awkward.

I sometimes choose my words a little poorly, but what I was saying is that by gaining towncred of getting us out of RVS he would have (most likely) avoided suspicion at least for this phase.

[Masquerade]

I still do agree and I think that you're probably town and Shinobi scum, but I feel like Shinobi can be left alive for a while because he's actively participating in scumhunting.
My opinion is that correct play in multiball is to go for the players who are both likely to be scum and unlikely to be cross killed; Shinobi doesn't exactly fit what I'm looking for in a day 1 lynch.
I think Cobalting needs to be forced to explain their reads lists right now.

Okay I'm willing to work with you.
On their readslists: Ranger does that. Every game. I need more context, it looks like it's made least to most scummy but that would be an assumption. There's no real content to speak of so they need to elaborate on their lists, explain how they got to them. And engage in the game more.

@Beeboy: I put quotes in the wall I made earlier. Shinobi hasn't done anything but awkwardly defending his rvs-questions and then entered a tunnel on me. I'm not going to paste his entire iso, if you don't see it then you're not going to see it with more quotes.

@Something smart: How do you justify both scumreading Viva and townreading me? When did I become a 'decent townlean'?

[Masquerade]

VOTE: Cobalting

This is not coming off for the rest of the day and if this doesn't explain their reads or get lynced I'm replacing out.

[Masquerade]

@Masquerade: I've already explained Viva. As for you, I really liked how you responded to pressure, particularly 123.
@Supreme: it's not just that Cobalting's thrown out unexplained readlists, but it's also that they've done little actual playing in the game. (My point about planning for LYLO also applies.)

I asked because I was thinking 'but we have the same opinion so how can 1 be scum and the other town' instead of remembering this is Fire and Ice.. Gonna reread a couple of things later tonight. First dinner.

Oh and PC please repost as hydra so it's in that iso too, thanks. And why do you want to talk to Ranger before you want to talk to us?

[Masquerade]

@Aristo: Obviously there's something in my responses that you don't like, because you're still scumreading me. Can you tell me what it is?
Your vote is still on Beeboy, you have him high up on your townlist, why haven't you removed your vote?
How did you get to a townread on Cobalting?

[Masquerade]

It doesn't mean anything since I am at L-6 lol

Probably yeah, why did you answer that for Aristo?

[Masquerade]

So Shinobi I was just going through your iso to remind myself where you stand on Viva and I couldn't find it. I couldn't find any kind of stance actually, except thinking I'm scum. Do you have reads on other players?

[Masquerade]

Because it was an obvious answer.

So I didn't check the vc when I asked that. It's still a legitimate question, and hardly my only one.

[Masquerade]

Although being on a wagon with Supreme Overlord is troubling as I have a bad gut feeling about him.

VOTE: Beeboy

Dammit

VOTE: Supreme Overlord.
Eh, still not fully comfortable with ika

especially

given multiball, but beeboy's right.
Not gonna share a wagon with him.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Cobalting

Different scumteams, I'd like Cobalting out first.

Dafuq is the problem sharing a wagon with scum if it is on other scum?! We can only lynch 1 a day you know.

[Masquerade]

Yeah and I guess it's this

UNVOTE:

Ya something_smart and cobalting are both against this and they can't both be a potential Ika partner so I am going to wait for him to post.

And now that I'm thinking about this more, it's just weird to me.
You have a scumread on ika, but you're already making it dependent on associative reads while we haven't even had a flip yet. How confident are you in your read of ika?
Also, everyone who's been in a game with ika knows ika's meta because it's brought up every game he's in so even a scumbuddy would possibly want to jump the wagon early for the towncredit with the knowledge that ika is going to be found out sooner than later anyways, so I wouldn't trust too much that if ika was scum that his buddy would be defending his lynch.

[Masquerade]

VOTE: Shinobi

[Masquerade]

UNVOTE:
I still believe Shinobi is scum, but we have more than a week left and a replacement request.

GL Droog.

[Masquerade]

@Viva: This frustration, can it only come from town? He keeps dodging questions to further explain his scumread on Cobalting, I'm on Somethingsmart's side on this one. Shinobi is trying to push the lynch on Cobalting based on Ranger not explaining her reads. It's a playstyle thing, Ranger does that in all her games so it's not alignment indicative. This has been mentioned several times, yet Shinobi keeps ignoring it.
It's only Day 1, I'm fully confident that as the game goes on, Ranger will become more talkative if they're town. And if not, we can still lynch the slot. I'm more sure of Shinobi right now and we can only lynch one player a day.

[Masquerade]

I would love to comment but I just got home from a busy shift and need sleep so will be back later.

[Masquerade]

Viva, can you votehop another time? I'm testing a theory.

[Masquerade]

I have intent to hammer. Very big intent.

[Masquerade]

Shinobi, I'm gonna be around for a few hours. I'll be waiting for a readslist. If that doesn't happen before I go to bed I'm gonna hammer.

Snarky: Explain why Shinobi is town. Go through his iso yourself. Go through mine to find the posts where I'm discussing him. I'm not going to do your job, you have to read yourself. If my read on Shinobi wasn't as strong as it is, I'd suggest a lynch on you instead right now. You haven't contributed a thing yet. Were you hoping for a fast hammer and then if Shinobi flipped town the questioning his wagon would look good on you?

[Masquerade]

So....... have we gotten lynch yet im tired and board

I know I really want to hammer but I still have a slight bit of hope that Shinobi will give me a readslist, and Snarky will explain his townread, with quotes and such ofcourse.

[Masquerade]

I did, why do you think I asked Viva to votehop some more?

[Masquerade]

I didn't like how ika tried to push the lynch without waiting for Shinobi to post his reads.

[Masquerade]

Kill?

[Masquerade]

Kill?

Yes?

Why did you choose the word 'kill' over 'lynch'?
Also, I dont know which SS you mean (I guess something-smart?) but both are townleans so why the willingness to 'kill' him? And you have ika as a townread, yet a few posts later you wonder if he could be scum. What did he do that made you say that?
Your readslist is giving me the idea you posted that because you saw your 'I don't care'-attitude wasn't working to get you unlynched. Your reason for voting Shadow is partly OMGUS and I don't like that. I'm not convinced you're town yet. I am willing to lynch Shadow today and take another look at your readslist when we have flips, maybe I'm in a tunnel but at least you're providing content we can use after you flip so would rather keep you than Shadow for now.

I'd vote Shadow because of the AtE-ish tone in his last post. It's not so much the claim in itself, he's v/la so I can understand wanting to get a claim in before coming back and seeing you've been lynched. But the way he did it doesn't show he was concerned with that at all.
Shadow is at L-2. I want a response from Shinobi first so I'm not yet putting Shadow at L-1, but the intent is definitely there.

[Masquerade]

We can do better, and rushing a lynch with 4 days left is scummy.

Yes

We had the votes to lynch Shinobi. If there is absolutely no way we can lynch Shinobi, I will be ok with a Shadow lynch. But I still think a Shinobi lynch is preferable and attainable.

No

Yes we did, if we didn't have 6 days left in the phase at the time I would have hammered Shinobi's wagon.

People might listen to you more if you actually gave reasons for what you say.

+1

The only reason I even have him as town at this point is because I've run out of people to call mafia.

What?

Silver said stuff.
Honestly ika is so apathetic that he could easily still be scum - he doesn't seem to care at all about what's going on and him whining about losing his lynch while doing nothing to keep it going is scummy.

I thought some of his earlier posts were okay-ish but he's dropping pretty fast.

This I'm ok with but it would have looked better if you had just explained that earlier. I agree ika is declining, but could also be apathy. Seems to hit players that don't like Day 1 faster.

You got me.

Yeah I meant that to mean that you're scum. So are you scum?

Well, you are displaying one of your scum tells right now that I know about.

I know....

Did i mention that your also setting off alarm bells to me too?

Is that admitting you're scum, ika?

Something Smart, how are we rushing the lynch??
The game is stalling atm.
Let's just get it over with.

How is the game stalling? The fact that we don't have a clear lynch? Because there's plenty of talk and you're not responding to any of it. Just so you know, I'm still having you as a scumlean.

I don't like Overlord's vote in 521

I'm liking Cobalting lately for town.

Oh we have a hammer already?
So ika tomorrow then even if Silver still lives?

[Masquerade]

Sorry for not posting yet, it's carnaval and have work today and parade-watching while binge-drinking tomorrow. I'll read up in between but chances of me making actual sense are slim.

[Masquerade]

Carnaval's over for me. Will make a catch-up post somewhere tomorrow.

I did get a chance to read in between and I also checked that game ika mentioned and SW posted the link to. I think Silver buddied ika a lot more in that game, I really never got the impression she was trying to figure him out and mostly she was just trying to stay on his good side. Which isn't what I'm seeing here.
I will reread both slots tomorrow as well as Overlord's.

ika: Which posts from Silver in this game remind you most of that other game?

[Masquerade]

I'm really sorry but I'm down with the flu (high fever, muscle aches, the works) and don't have energy right now to play. If I'm not feeling better in 2 days I'll replace out, but I really don't want to do that.

[Masquerade]

I thought I was on to something but I can't keep my concentration. I have scumreads on Firebringer and Shinobi, I hope to be able to explain them soon.

Feeling a little bit better today, I hope I can come back here tonight to explain.

[Masquerade]

Feeling better yesterday didn't last as long as I hoped, but I'm here now.

VOTE: Shinobi

I read his iso. He has no interaction with Overlord whatsoever. When he made his readslist at L-1 he didn't include Overlord.

I don't think Shinobi is a good lynch. His reads list looks honest. One question, though: Shinobi, I'm literally the only person you left off your list. Why?
Actually, I don't think you've mentioned me at all. What the heck, man?

This is

I can't think anymore.

What Overlord said there looks towny but he wasn't town. I think they still could be buddies so I want to lynch Shinobi.

I didn't know scum!silver was so spineless.

Just rechecking his iso and well this^ Later his read went to null, Shinobi said he flipped on her a lot and couldn't really get a read. He doesn't do much later to get a better read at all.

Silver said stuff.
Honestly ika is so apathetic that he could easily still be scum - he doesn't seem to care at all about what's going on and him whining about losing his lynch while doing nothing to keep it going is scummy.

But here he trusts Silverwolf?

[Masquerade]

And?

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear but I believe you're ice mafia.

[Masquerade]

Yes, defensiveness is a scum trait.
I feel like the Shinobi-SO interactions are probably not partners, because SO voted Shinobi pretty early on. I'll have to look again but I'm pretty sure scumbuddies wouldn't do this.
Fire, who are your scumreads?
Viva, do you really think Shinobi would be so obvious as to leave his buddy off his readlist? And then you think his buddy would point it out?

Overlord voted Shinobi during RVS. I'm not going to dig up links but I have seen it happening. I'm not going to disregard a scumread just because it was voted by their buddy during freaking RVS. That tell is too well-known to work. Scum can rvs-vote their buddies period

[Masquerade]

Actually, the fact that Overlord called Shinobi out on Shinobi not having a read on Overlord made me read Overlord more towny.

[Masquerade]

This is not a terrible post.

Tell me why you think that.

[Masquerade]

A while beforehand.
I started talking about him again during day 2 but ika hammered him too quickly for me to reassess the slot.

You NEVER brought up Overlord. Even when he called you out on not including him in your readslist did you not respond to him.
Or else quote the posts that I missed from you that were about or to Overlord.

[Masquerade]

UNVOTE:

I'm doing this because I want to show you that I'm willing to hear you out before lynching you. Again.

Also, if we lynch today, we're going into night with 5 players, if we don't lynch scum, there is a possibility we wake up 1 towny left vs 2 scum. If the game didn't end there already. I want to figure this out as good as I can with the time we have.

[Masquerade]

Eh I don't like Aristo.

Aristo, why aren;t you pushing your own scumreads?

[Masquerade]

(I'm giving my opinion on Somthingsdmarts post after I had a response from Shinobi btw.)

[Masquerade]

You have me as a scumread, why not push me to respond to your case? I haven't done that yet, don't you want me to? Just posting a case and a vote isn;t really pushing a scumread.
You also had this analysis of Snarky's voting. What happened to those thoughts?
How come, if you did such a VCA, you missed the Firebringer-slot? I mean, you did make sure there wouldn't be much confusion on the slots that needed replacing.

[Masquerade]

Ok but you have scumreads on Snarky and me, and now you're ok with voting Firebringer.
You do realize there's 2 scum left to catch right?
Oh wait, you do:

VOTE: Firebringer
Probably ice, not sure what Viva was thinking, interactions with SO are terrible.
I'd also probably be ok lynching masq or snarky.

You are scum reading all three players?
Okay...

That's okay. They're probably the last Fire goon anyway.

[Masquerade]

What do you think about Viva's case on Shinobi?

[Masquerade]

Ok but you have scumreads on Snarky and me, and now you're ok with voting Firebringer.
You do realize there's 2 scum left to catch right?
Oh wait, you do:

VOTE: Firebringer
Probably ice, not sure what Viva was thinking, interactions with SO are terrible.
I'd also probably be ok lynching masq or snarky.

You are scum reading all three players?
Okay...

That's okay. They're probably the last Fire goon anyway.

Upon a recheck I must admit I made an error. Aristo was talking about Somethingsmart here and not Snarky. I think. I still get confused who people mean when they say SS.

[Masquerade]

Masq, who are you more sure on? Fire or Shinobi?
Do you think Aristo's case on you is fake? Do you think he is scum?

Pedit: I think Shinobi is not a good lynch today. He's definitely not Fire and he's probably not Ice, since Fire is a lot more likely to be Ice. (Lol I just can't get over this )

I'd like to get back to you after Shinobi answers me.

About Aristo: I think his case on me is a huge stretch, trying to discredit me based on a post I made during Day 1. Sure I vote 2 players that are now conftown but he voted one of them as well so yeah, it's a huge stretch. I think he's scum because he's basically been going with the flow this entire game. He tosses up some of his own ideas at times, but he doesn't really push them. Eventually he will just jump the bandwagon. Shadow day 1, Overlord day 2 (and I think that could have very well been a bus) and now he's tested out some theories about his vca (Somethingsmart or Snarky?) and me, those didn't seem to stick so now he jumped on Firebringer.
I could lynch this before Shinobi actually.

[Masquerade]

I have a scumread on Snarky? Ninja'd

Why are you sheeping your scumread?

[Masquerade]

It's not bad, and I didn't like the overdefensiveness after my one small comment. I will have to do a reread of it and get back to you though.

Still?
Go do that now please.

[Masquerade]

I have a scumread on Snarky? Ninja'd

Why are you sheeping your scumread?

Multiball.

No. You have townreads. Why are you sheeping your scumreads over your townreads?

[Masquerade]

Overlord day 2 (and I think that could have very well been a bus)

No no no not a bus, eager opposing scum.

[Masquerade]

As in WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO SORT SHINOBI WITH US?

[Masquerade]

It's been on *the back burner* since yesterday. Get to it.

[Masquerade]

can make this a priority if you like.

I was responding to this part but ok.

[Masquerade]

Ugh I can be so easily distracted

[Masquerade]

VOTE: Aristo

I want to do this today.

[Masquerade]

Mod, can we get some prods?

[Masquerade]

Seriously? Why?

Because I'm scumreading you.

Btw I responded to your case in some post to Somethingsmart so if you're still waiting for it, there it is.

[Masquerade]

@Somethingsmart: So you have no problem whatsoever with Aristo sheeping his scumread while also scumreading me for voting people that are hesitant to share a wagon with scumreads?

[Masquerade]

Firebringer, you never trust me. What is it exactly that you're scumreading me for

this

game?

[Masquerade]

Firebringer, you never trust me. What is it exactly that you're scumreading me for

this

game?

Because the times I have trusted you, you were scum!
Or I was scum.

Ok so you not trusting me means we're both town then, right?

Anyway, you didn't answer my question there. What are you scumreading me for? What did I do here that makes you not trust me? If it's just because I can fool you as scum you should try harder to sort me.

[Masquerade]

@Fire: do you actually have a case on Masq or is it pure survivalism?
@Masq: Do you think Fire is town? If so, why? If not, why not vote him? (sounds like an exam question )

Why am I getting the feeling you're trying to push me into hammering?

[Masquerade]

Ok so I finally went over Aero/Silver combined and that really looks like they're buddies trying to catch up with each other's thoughts. I can't believe someone would be so obvious about that. I need a think.

[Masquerade]

I have intent to hammer Firebringer. I went over his iso again and:

His reasoning feels weak and forced, his voting patterns are opportunistic (especially the Shadow vote), his whole "has/hasn't mentioned" thing pings me wrong, and his case on ika for hammering after he himself put Shadow at L-1 is hypocritical.

Hammering and putting a person at L-1 are two different things...
How is that hypocritical?

+

Not really? Like, what said should do the opposite of that unless he's scum. If he wants to declare intent that's fine. I also think SO should just go ahead and claim at this point.

But Ika always hammers. Like 99.999999% of the time.
Can you point to a game he doesn't hammer someone at L-1.
This is regardless of alignment too btw. You know its a Null tell.

You have to assume L-2 is L-1 with Ika in game.

Why first hypocritical and then seeming to be fully aware of things. It's just weird, I think based on this Fire could be ice (with Overlord that is)

Also, he's not fire because:

Fire do you think silver is only tryhard as scum?

Pedit: dunno is it?

she was tryhard as town from a Aero game I remember several months ago.
But she had a very town tone in her posts I was picking up.

here she just seems to be trying to seem town with her posts, and thats what I am getting across. Like she wants to seem productive and townlike, but thats all she wants. The appearance.

and

Also, firebringer until recently, I've always been tryhard in games. I've decided recently it isn't work the effort. Again, though which posts look scummy to you?

Ill have to do a ISO, which I am not doing atm.
Though I promise I will read through, maybe I am wrong about you SW. But right now, my gut says bad wolf!

The fact that he never voted either Overlord of Silverwolf that Day I think he didn't want to vote his buddy and already decided on killing Silverwolf during the night and didn't want his vote to be an extra point of attention to that fact.

[Masquerade]

Ok so I finally went over Aero/Silver combined and that really looks like they're buddies trying to catch up with each other's thoughts. I can't believe someone would be so obvious about that. I need a think.

I'm getting so tired of this, this^ suggests Fire and Silver were buddies but I have more evidence that points to Firebringer being ice over fire.
Oh well, I guess he's scum either way does it really matter?

I still get stuck in my Shinobi-tunnel I wish the dude got lynched so he wasn't so much a distraction to me. I don;t like how he's keeping to the sidelines though, he seems to just watch what we're doing and I still am willing to lynch him.

[Masquerade]

Having down a vote does not prove you are town. You're going to have to prove you're town by trying to work with all of us. Even scum. Because that's the only way we're going to find out who the scum are. I don't think you're getting that. I'm just not getting the feeling you are trying to figure things out, sure you ruffle some feathers here and there, and I'd expect that kind of thing from an experienced player (I assume because joindate) but I don't see you really pushing anything. AND HAVING A VOTE IS NOT PUSHING YOUR CASE!

[Masquerade]

Ok so you not trusting me means we're both town then, right?

Anyway, you didn't answer my question there. What are you scumreading me for? What did I do here that makes you not trust me? If it's just because I can fool you as scum you should try harder to sort me.

I have the weakest reasons, but this seems like your scum meta to me. Especially with the push on me while trying to get me to see you as town.

Why? If you truly thought I was scum, you wouldn't bother trying to convince me you were town. Whats the point?

Eh yeah that was a joke.
If I truly thought you were scum I would have hammered you a long time ago. I don't want to convince you I am town, I want you to convince me you're town and I shouldn't hammer you. You could, you know, try a little harder if you really are town and help find scum instead of joking around half the time.

[Masquerade]

Bah I can't make my mind up on Firebringer. Starting to lean town on him again. I retract my intent to hammer for now. Will look into things again tonight when I get home.

[Masquerade]

Viva, if I were Fire why would I be trying to lynch Ice, when it would then be 4:1, rather than trying to nightkill them, leading to 3:1? Compare my push on Firebringer to Masquerade, who appears to be scumreading him but won't admit it, because they don't want to lynch Ice, and tell me how Masq is town here.

What you would do as scum is not what I would do. I'd feel a lot more comfortable lynching the other scum so there's absolutely no chance of them killing me. I'm not as confident a player as Viva is.

What bothers me about Firebringer is how he was asking why people were scumreading Overlord, and that was based on Overlord attacking someone for hammering while he was the one placing the L-1 and Firebringer first acts like he isn't aware of anything but only a few posts later he explains to Silverwolf how in any game with ika L-2 should be considered L-1 so that shows he was actually aware of the thoughts behind the scumread on Overlord, yet he still had to ask. That's my only issue with Firerbinger, everything else makes me townread him or is null/trolly Firebringer.

[Masquerade]

I also think Aeronaut is a better player and wouldn't address his scumbuddy after replacing in only to disappear right after, but I don't know him very well so I could be wrong.

[Masquerade]

Shinobi, what's your read on Somethingsmart?

[Masquerade]

I'm in train. Im ok with no lynch. Also ok with lynching SSmart.

[Masquerade]

How long left?

[Masquerade]

Ok well I'm not hammering Firebringer.
I hate lynching from phone because I can't make a decent post.
I'll get back on the next train. About an hour. Snarky viva what should I do? Join on smart or nolynch?

[Masquerade]

Ugh final train now. Gonna be unavailable in some time. I'm good with no lynch so think I'll just do nothing.

[Masquerade]

Thanks for modding Texcat!

The iced and burned surprised me this game, usually there is no kill-flavour. I think I'd like it better if there's no flavour because it leads to more NKA and that's usually full of WIFOM.

Firebringer, please don't leave <3