Open 646 - Semi Nightless - Game Over (D6)
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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1. Evidence
2. Most of my experience comes from unranked EpicMafia. I played 3 games on here a long time ago on an account I forgot the name of. It was enough to make me the level that's above newbie (SE or IC I forgot).
3. I don't remember what I preferred but I plan on doing both
4. The "I don't wanna take a 12 minute test" personality type
5. In most circumstances I agree
6. Yea
7. Of course I am. Am I scum to you now?
I agree that having a townread increase the odds of hitting scum from 2/9 to 2/8. But I don't see how that townread's vote/read increases that probability. I also don't see why if it did, how it would increase the probability more than your own vote/read.
I agree that it's unlikely for two mafia to bus each other D1. I'm not okay with outright ruling out the possibility despite it being unlikely.
@Thor At what post did you start townreading giga and why?
@Karnos Why did you post #70?-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Io vs Karnos might be Town vs Town?
Karnos's posts towards vs Io are absolutely reasonable defenses. And #76 came off as "I know I'm town" rather than "I'm mafia and I want to get rid of the possibility of us bussing." Given that the #70 post wasjustified by #140, It makes sense for why #70 would be done by Town.
Io is grasping for straws but all of that revolves around Io truly interpreting #70 as scum trying to indirectly attack Thor.
This whole argument feels like a long battle of "how hard can I prove these few posts are supposed to be interpreted as town/mafia posts." If this argument kept going, today's lynch will probably come down to whoever won this battle. Which would be pretty stupid.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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I still don't get why Karnos is scum. Please don't lynch him when we're like only 2 days into it.
Nah. This comes off as trying to hop on a bandwagon without trying to form an actual reason as to why Karnos to scum. Also why did you post 185?In post 185, PhantomCobalt wrote:VOTE: karnos for being the first one to post after my introduction!
VOTE: PhantomCobalt
How did you get these reads?In post 220, Kcdaspot wrote:with that based on what ive seen its karnos and KTL for the scumteam secondary scummy reads on luna and GT (gut mainly)
ANNNNNNND
VOTE: KTS
We real now
pedit: now that you mention that and transcend is not far off of making the list either.
SUP WIT ITIn post 222, Kcdaspot wrote:POST MORE TENSHII GODDANG
The former two came off as trying to reaction test. The latter does seem bad though. I also hate how KTS keeps saying "I'm obv town" as if it's helpful towards helping him get read.In post 247, Kcdaspot wrote:more anti town then a naked vote near page 2, a call for a quicklynch on page 5 and policy lynch on yours truly on this page?
if you think trying fool you go ahead and vote me but im not gonna let KTL live outside D1. i can settle for a karnos lynch DEPENDING ON THE VC, MOD.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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COME ONNNN. Like I said in my 2nd post, this whole case on Karnos revolves around a scum interpretation of like 3 of his posts. Everything after that is just an argument as to why those 3 posts have to be scum.
For the sake of understanding where I'm coming from, force yourself to temporarily read Karnos as town. 100% town. Then reread this whole thread (because argument took like 75% of the thread and I s2g I reread this thread at least like 3 times trying to see where you guys are coming from so at least read it once through for me) and try to tell me that it's impossible for him to come from town. I think you're all just stubborn and think that you're so committed and deep in the hole that if you abandoned that wagon, you guys would feel dumb. So I'll give you all the light at the end of the tunnel you're looking for...
VOTE: Kcdaspot
Some of you guys are finding this dude obnoxious to deal with. And all he's done so far is poke people for a few posts, then say "x y z is mafia and a b c posts are town" without giving any substance behind it. He's trying to give off the vibe he's being productive and scumhunting without actually proving it.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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@ Thor, what posts please. Specifically what posts. I'm pretty sure I'm misreading who's "You" and "I" in your post so I want it clear.
@ Luna, Iirc, KTS was only scumread by you and giga. That's not really that strong of a tr. And KC already displayed intent on hammering Karnos.
Also I'm down for either KC or PC.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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In post 336, Thor665 wrote:Thor: question for Karanos.
Karanos: Misrep answer.
Thor: That's a misrep answer, here's clarification if you're confused, answer now?
Karanos: Defends the point of the misrep as some sort of weird 'teaching me a lesson' thing.
I cited him for dodging here: viewtopic.php?p=8124872#p8124872
He asked, dodging what? here; viewtopic.php?p=8124920#p8124920 (these last two weren't in my original lineup, but are here for completeness)
Thor: ...ooookay, so will you answer now?
Karanos: What'chu talkin' about? 'quotes the misrep answer' I already did!Thor - question for Karanos"What presumes that I have a scumread at that stage of the game?"
Karnos - Misrep ANSWER due to his interpretation/ Answers your question with "So no, it doesn't make sense that at a point in the game where many players have posted several serious posts outside of RVS, you only have a read on one of them. And further, it doesn't logically follow that your town read is necessarily reading anyone else accurately."
Thor - That's a misrep answer, here's clarification if you're confused, answer now?
Karnos - "I interpreted your post in the same way Io did to me, yet you agree with her doing it to me and not me doing it to you" aka the lesson he's trying to teach you
Thor - I cited him for dodging
Karnos - Dodging what? (He already answered.)
Thor - ...ooookay, so will you answer now?
Karnos - What'chu talkin' about? 'quotes the misrep answer' I already did!
Karnos - Asked a question"Obviously I have to be curious about that, but more importantly: how do you feel about people who flat out refuse to answer your questions?"
Io - Misrep READ due to her interpretation-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Line 1- THATS THE WHOLE POINT. YOU think that it's illogical to interpret it that way. But then Karnos is trying to bring up how Io is doing the same thing to Karnos (This is shown in the quote below)In post 340, Thor665 wrote:In post 149, Thor665 wrote:Let's presume for a moment that you are absolutely correct and this is *exactly* how I see myself.
What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?
Yeah...except I'm not saying that, and if you can see how he logically interpreted that I was saying that - I'll give you a cookie.In post 183, karnos wrote:You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster.
And let's even go on further - do you think it is legit, if he agrees that he misunderstood/misrepped me in his answer, that he doesn't need to actually answer the question because he already did a misunderstanding/misrep answer?
Like, even if I was to go along on the crazy train that is his was a reasonable misrep teaching point (and I don't) do you then think it justifies as an answer to my question about his logic?
Line 2/3 - But he did answer your question. (This is shown in the quote below)In post 202, karnos wrote:
You are correct, you didn't say anything like that, I was just interpreting your post and reading between the lines, and taking into account the game state.In post 195, Thor665 wrote:
I would agree.In post 183, karnos wrote:You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster.
Especially since I never said anything like that.
But now you seem to be pushing the idea that Io can interpret my posts, read details that were unsaid and you fully support her, while here you are arguing that your posts can only be taken literally.
It's a bit of a contradiction in your logic.
Your question - What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?In post 183, karnos wrote:
What exactly does a town read mean? IMO, it means the player isn't scum.In post 149, Thor665 wrote: This logic doesn't make any sense.
Let's presume for a moment that you are absolutely correct and this is *exactly* how I see myself.
What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?
Because that's all that doesn't need to happen for this case to fall apart. Maybe I got my magical super accurate town read and haven't yet got a scum read - and, presto, my vote makes perfect sense even within the strange world of Mystic Thor the Wonderous Seer.
Do you have a rejoinder?
What exactly does a scum read me? IMO, it means the player isn't town.
You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster. There is no inherent difference between a scum read and a town read, they both measure the same thing, but town is on the positive scale and scum is on the negative.
So no, it doesn't make sense that at a point in the game where many players have posted several serious posts outside of RVS, you only have a read on one of them. And further, it doesn't logically follow that your town read is necessarily reading anyone else accurately.
The first 3 lines - The lesson
The last line - The actual answer. "So no, It doesn't make sense that at a point in the game where many players have posted several posts outside of RVS, you only have a read on one of them. And further, it doesn't logically follow that your town read is necessarily reading anyone else accurately." AKA he's saying that there's been so much information posted already, why do you only have a read on one person? Why wouldn't you have a scum read? And how do you even know that town read is scum reading anyone else accurately?
Also even if he weren't teaching a lesson, his Line 2 makes sense to me. I don't get the logic at all on depending a townREAD's read on another person. You don't know for sure your READ is town so chooing to bandwagon that READ's read over your own personal read doesn't make sense.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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@Mod, Idk if that's standard but if you can please list out who's voting Thor, Kill, Transcend, and Ross on the next VC please.In post 407, tojam2 wrote:
VC Day 1 - 5
Karnos L-3 - Io, Thor665, gigabyte
PhantomCobalt L-4 - Luna Fox, Tenshii
Io L-4 - karnos, Killthestory
Thor665, Killthestory, Transcend and Rosske are all L-5.
(expired on 2016-07-29 16:30:00)
@Thor, what are your thoughts on Io? Do these change if Karnos flips town? Flips scum?-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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What do you mean by this?In post 448, Luna Fox wrote:Funny you say that coz i think Karnos is the bait here.-
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Not being townread doesn't justify a lynch. But being scumread does.In post 452, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:i'm going to fact check this when i get time but i'm pretty sure lynchbait isn't widely townread by all but three people
(as in fact check if karækns is widely townread)-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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PC is the main lynch I want right now. Worst case scenario, non-contributing VI is lynched. Best case scenario, scum is lynched. Anything else, I'd have to reevaulate. I've kinda been debating on hopping on the Karnos bandwagon for the past few days, mainly cuz I do think that they plan on fighting to the death and they won't stop attacking each other until it happens, even to Day 2, 3, etc. So the sooner we can stop it the better.
@ Luna, can you explain your reads? All of them? Also how do you keep track of your reads? Do you just keep track of them in your head? Do you write them down on a notepad? Or what?
@ Io, who's Karnos's partner?
@ Thor, who's Karnos's partner?-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Your last "current reads" post. I meant explain all of this. Or wherever your stand now.In post 483, Luna Fox wrote:
In the "biggest scumread" kind of sense, PhantomCobalt is the one i think it's more likely to flip scum out of my non townreads.In post 482, Killthestory wrote:Who's your biggest scumread
Gygabyte.In post 482, Killthestory wrote:and who's your biggest townread.
Current reads stand at:In post 482, Killthestory wrote:Which wagons would you agree to vote on, and which wagons wouldn't you agree with?
Strong townreads: Tenshii and gigabyte
Townreads: Thor, Transcend, KC, Io, Rosske
Leftovers: KTS, Karnos, PC-
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@Thor, Nah, especially cuz I don't scumread Karnos in the first place.In post 507, Thor665 wrote:
Not Io - that's all I've got.In post 496, Tenshii wrote:@ Thor, who's Karnos's partner?
Why, do you see any people who should be obviously ruled out or considered as more likely?-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Hops on a bandwagon (Karnos) and justifies it with RVS. Eventually townreads (Karnos), his vote, but parks it anyway. Posted multiple times (aka multiple oppurtunities to unvote) without unvoting. Justifies it with not having a chance to reread through everything.In post 588, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:Tenshii, are you still scumreading Phantom? Walk me through your case if you are. I get the "well either we lose a VI or we get scum" but I'm really not seeing scum here.
Phantom, walk me through your scumread of Luna and me. Do you think we're scum together?
Town should be unvoting in this spot to decrease the chance of a townread getting lynched. I can't see any logical reason as to why town would act this way.
Iirc, any townread on him was justified with "He's acting so idiotic and/or scummy that he has to be town" which is garbage logic in and of itself. Which then leads to my logic of "Worst case scenario, lose VI. Best case scenario, flip scum." Getting rid of VI is better now than to keep VI into late game, especially when considering lylo.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Also, is it standard to just have read posts such as...
"I townread X, Y, Z and scumread A, B."
without justification? A majority of you guys just post reads without explaining why. Granted, some people explained how they got that read in previous posts but others just gather reads out of nowhere and don't explain them. But there are people that post reads without any explanation as to how they got there, which doesn't help me (and I assume others) read what you're thinking. *cough* Phantom *cough* And there are others that avoid explaining their reads when asked. *cough* Luna *cough*
@Phantom
@Luna-
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Eeeeh. So based off of your ISO, you townread Io when she was 2 posts in. And never commented on it since. Other than like restating the fact you had a townread on her whenever you posted a reads post. Based off of your ISO, I have to assume your townread is because of those 2 posts and nothing else.In post 591, Luna Fox wrote:
I havent avoided explaining them when asked.In post 590, Tenshii wrote:And there are others that avoid explaining their reads when asked. *cough* Luna *cough*
They are literally everywhere in my ISO.
My point being, I don't believe you actually have all of those reads, or you just haven't explained everything. Or you just actually townread her off of those 2 posts?!? So it'd be nice if I could see where you're at.
@Giga Whatever floats your boat-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Do you have a "scum" rank that you use? Or are all scum just tossed into the leftovers. Will you ever use a "scum" rank?In post 190, Luna Fox wrote:In my case i only use 4 ranks "Super town" "Strong town" "Townreads" and "Leftovers" i usually lynch within the left overs, and "Super town" are people im 100% sure dont need reevaluation to the point of risking the game.-
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Is what I said about him being scummy not reasonable? And do you think that what he did is towny? Assuming you're okay with his play, what actions would he have to do to convince you he's scum?In post 603, Thor665 wrote:I mean, I see evidence of sloppy play - can you translate it from sloppy to scummy?
This is sooooo degenerate. Getting away with being bad town just because you've done it in the past is words I can't even explain. Assuming you're okay with his play, what actions would he have to do to convince you he's scum?In post 609, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:this and the fact that in the game i referenced, Phantom lurked h a r d there too (and he was a powerrole lynched D1 :/) just really makes me think that this is not a lynch worth pursuing.
@KTS Why are you fillering so hard?
@mhsmith0 What do you think of Io?-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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@Luna That is sooooo degenerate. Getting away with being bad town just because you've done it in the past is words I can't even explain. Assuming you're okay with his play, what actions would he have to do to convince you he's scum?
@mh Your 2nd reason for voting Karnos was poor arguments, yet Io made poor arguments towards Karnos. How hard is your Karnos scumread?-
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@mh So I will preface this with saying that I think Karno's 70 is NAI. This can be town asking an earnest question (as he justfied in 140). This can be mafia, as you guys are interpreting it. Therefore, it is NAI. Does this logic make sense?
75 - Io attacks Karnos on an NAI post
83 - Making implications on yet another NAI. Then trying to support her argument by putting words into Karno's mouth. Karnos being adamant about a Thor lynch =/= Indirect attack
89 - Io retracts the fact she made an implication. Then runs back 83.
Accusing for stretching an interpretation is a valid defense. And he did point out how it was wrong.In post 155, Io wrote:Even if I was stretching that a little bit his reaction to the accusation by voting me is plenty enough to make a full case on its own because really just accusing your accuser for stretching an interpretation a little isn't even a defense it's just dodging the accusation entirely to get me to stop attacking him. A defense from him wouldn't have even been that hard to make as all he would have needed to do was to explain how I was interrupting his intentions wrong.
Yep. Not exactly the way I would've wanted it but good enough. What posts made you feel this way?In post 633, mhsmith0 wrote:And do you think karnos has defended himself in an honest and forthright manner? I feel like his defense has been sketchy, like he doesn't want to engage with the the actual case being made. And there's been a lack of clarity towards what he was even trying to do with his original posts (attack? Not attack? Just Thor? More than that?) that suggests that he's manly interested in just making the case go away.
That is sooooo degenerate. Getting away with being bad town just because you've done it in the past is words I can't even explain. What actions would they have to do to convince you they's scum? Aka if they get "more room," where is the line drawn?In post 633, mhsmith0 wrote:Pps players who are bad town or mislynch bait type get more room to screw up in general before you can be sure they're wolves. It's annoying, but part of the game.
I'm interestedIn post 614, mhsmith0 wrote:I could explain why in detail but it'd involve text walls and based on the way things have gone down I figure that town isn't actually interested. But some of the highlights:
SemanticsIn post 634, mhsmith0 wrote:"I meant ____" is a specific, direct answer. Karnos didn't do that-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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In post 589, Tenshii wrote:Hops on a bandwagon (Karnos) and justifies it with RVS. Eventually townreads (Karnos), his vote, but parks it anyway. Posted multiple times (aka multiple oppurtunities to unvote) without unvoting. Justifies it with not having a chance to reread through everything.
Town should be unvoting in this spot to decrease the chance of a townread getting lynched. I can't see any logical reason as to why town would act this way.In post 622, Tenshii wrote:Is what I said about him being scummy not reasonable?-
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scum!PC can easily lie about not being caught up on the game and "rvs" bus his own partner. I still think any tr on PC is bull.In post 878, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:I mentioned earlier that I didn't think scum!PC would "rvs" his partner to L-2 without reading the game. Hence why I have been townreading Phantom very hard the entire game.
Why did you let it be known that you would lynch KTS?In post 712, Luna Fox wrote:FTR if Karnos flips scum im lynching KTS tomorrow.
If Karnos flips town i need to reevaluate stuff.
I'm salty af that mh dodged my one post that took me like a good hour or so because I actually had to reread those walls again. Also the reason I was so inquisitive about mh's vote on Karnos cuz I found it as meatless as KTS's vote on Karnos. If it's possible for KTS to be scum and bus hammer Karnos, then it's perfectly reasonable for scum!mh to bus L-1 Karnos. The difference being mh was able to point out reasons for Karnos being scum.-
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I don't understand what you're trying to say here at all. Also what is WKingIn post 962, Transcend wrote:also he lynched a slot that someone he was formerly scumreading aka Luna Fox was voting him.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Yea? How do you think I feel then?In post 990, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:I don't like how Tenshii ignored mhsmith and my request for an explanation about you.-
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Does anyone honestly read through what I post? I s2g at least half of the people here have dodged a question I've asked them at least one time. It pisses me off that as soon as I'm asked a question, I'm expected to reciprocate with an answer but yet when I ask a question, I'll more likely than not end up getting dodged.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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My 993 was directed towards everybody in general.
@ Giga Not really that. If anything you dodged my 959, but that wasn't a question, so technically it's okay. My point still stands though, you're tr'ing Phantom because you don't see scum!Phantom rvs'ing his partner to L-2. I'm saying that I find scum!Phantom more than capable of doing that if he was scum.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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@Giga The benefit/The motivation is getting townread for doing something like that. If either one of Karnos/Phantom flip, that RVS vote has a chance of making Karnos/Phantom viewed as seperate alignment. If they're both scum, this would be a good play on Phantom's part.
Like ffs, can ANYONE point out a SINGLE TOWNY THING Phantom has done?
Who are you referring to as bad town? And why did you post this? Also are you a professional dodgeball player? heheheIn post 1011, mhsmith0 wrote:Pps I can't tell you how annoying it is to play w people who are being bad town. In terms of how much I need to push them to lynch, it's hard to say tbh. Part of it is working specifically for finding wolf motivation, whereas w players you respect, "they're not playing like I think of them as town" can itself be a decent case. Then again this was (IIRC) part of why I was willing to lynch thor d1 in 644 (I found his Dunn case weak and reachy [it turns out he was right on it ] and it felt like he wasn't engaging the board as usefully as he did in our newbie together when he subbed there), and that was wrong, so *shrugs*-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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My vote on Luna is more of a salt vote than a read. LMAO. But Luna's all happy about it for whatever reason which pisses me off even more. I do think Luna might be scum with a part time job as a dodgeball coach, but if anything Luna is more likely to flip dodgeball coach more often than Phantom flipping scum. I basically hard read Luna as a dodgeball coach at 959, possibly could flip scum instead though. I still do want a Phantom lynch though. 100%. But given that everybody and their mother just reads Phantom as "bad town," I doubt that'll happen.
P-Edit: Idk why but I'm amusing myself alot by bringing up dodgeball.
P-Edit: @mh You're still reeking professional dodgeball player. I hard read mh staying as a pofessional dodgeball player after this post, but I lowkey think me bringing it up might end her career.
P-Edit: Luna + mhsmith0 are probably in ascumdodgeball team with each other. AYY LMAO.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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@Luna Please for the love of god, don't dodge me, and give me the sources for the first 2 pics. I'll reduce your contract from dodgeball coach to dodgeball coach assistant.
Also if working in the dodgeball industry is alignment indicative, then my case on Luna and mh being a dodgeball team still stands.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii's Dodgeball Rankings
1. tojam2, probably has potential to stay as #1 on the rankings given how hard he dodges updating VC.
2. PhantomCobalt, hard read as Dodgeball Goon
3. Luna Fox, hard claimed dodgeball coach at 959
4. mhsmith0, hard claimed professional dodgeball player at some post I'm too lazy to go back and reference
5. Killthestory, he's that one dude that FILLS (heh) the water bottles of all the players on the team
5. Transcend, soft read as amateur dodgeball player
7. Thor, has aspirations for joining his school's dodgeball club but didn't decide yet
7. Rosske, insert some dodgeball joke here
9. Io, literally threw the dodgball that killed Karnos
10. Giga, Karnos whispered Giga who was on the other team to throw the game so Karno's team could win but Giga declined like a good person
11. Tenshii, fully incapable of playing dodgeball unless salt meters reach a certain point
This is now the post I'm most proud of.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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70 seconds into the game, Karnos met up with Giga in an attempt to collude the game.
"Hey, if I give you this dodgeball, will you throw it at your teammate, Thor?," says Karnos, the dodgeball goon.
(imaginary story from here on out that demonstrates the point)
"There's no way Karnos can collude with someone on the same team as him." says Tenshii, the dodgeball spectator.
"But wait, what if she's trying to mind game everybody," says Phantom, the 2nd dodgeball goon.
Tenshii replies, "But Karnos is really passive and only really throws dodgeballs at people who throw dodgeballs at him. I really don't think Karnos is ballsy enough to collude with his own teammate because that would come off as rather aggressive in the late game."
Phantom shouts, "NO! That's impossible!"
Tenshii laughs, "Ohh no it isn't."
Phantom groans in disbelief, "Well dang Tenshii is so smart, I guess I should lynch myself."
Then Tenshii, Giga, and the dodgeball team that hard claimed hop onto Phantom's choo choo train to go see the end of the dodgeball ceremony. KTS ended up being a minute too late and missed the train, so he ends up lolhammering once again. And everyone lived happily ever after. The end.-
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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Tenshii Mafia Scum
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