Mini 630: Council of Eville: Game Ovah!

[veerus]

Hm,

Vote: Gojira

for his incompetence when it comes to working the private messaging system.

[veerus]

Skillit - (3) Gojira, cerebus3, joonster

I know Rage's question kind of stole the spotlight a little bit, but did anyone else find it curious that we have a mini-bandwagon with 3 "random" votes on the same person?

[veerus]

My goal is pretty obvious. I don't like your defense period, and I'm pursuing you because I think you're scummy.

Also, I don't buy the "comment" rather than accusation of scumminess. Saying someone's vote is opportunistic implies that it was scummy, because opportunistic votes have a connotation of being something scummy. Then you confirmed your vote on a player being legitimately wagoned after saying that the person voting for him was opportunistic.

I want everyone to answer these questions. Do you think alvinz's comment that StrangerCoug's vote was opportunistic and then comment that he's confirming his vote on rage to be odd? Do you buy his explanation that it was just a meaningless post and not anything serious?

I'll say it again. I don't like you downplaying everything I say simply because your post happened during the random phase. Your post happening during the random phase doesn't mean that it automatically doesn't count and should be ignored. There was real discussion happening during that period, and your post contained real discussion, that you're now trying to play off as simply useless banter (which I don't buy).

*slaps head*
Of course, if you don't buy anything in this game, you'll get no where. This whole argument is based on you thinking it was serious, when it really wasn't to me.

When you reference your random vote and say "vote stays" then, as far as I'm concerned, that vote becomes a real vote for real reasons. Alvinz95's entire defense has hinged on the fact that he was playing around and wasn't serious. I haven't really seen anything else of substance in his defense. Here's the thing though.. In this game, EVERYTHING you say is serious and meaningful. Claiming it's not is a poor defense and not one I buy.

Unvote, Vote: alvinz95

Also, re: SC's play.. I was in mini 601 with those two and his erratic comments and votes got him lynched in there. I'm not saying it's a good way to play, nor does it clear him as town. But it definitely is something to keep an eye on, but at least it's sort of consistent.

MOD: Can we get a vote count please?

[veerus]

This to me is opportunistic, vote stays though

This translated to me as

Strangercoug, your vote hopping was kind of 'preying on something once it was proven to be weak' but im not going to follow you in vote hopping

I disagree. If he wasn't going to follow the vote "hopping" on Rage, he would've unvoted instead of insisting that his vote on Rage will stay. Could you explain your justification for the flawed logic here.

goat

, does that about summ up what you point is?

That was a nice long post with a lot of quotes and summations, but very few actual thoughts from you. A long post with little content is pretty scummy.

[veerus]

I understand that your comment was what you THOUGHT he said. I'm not saying that you're lying, I'm saying that your thinking is flawed.

By saying that SC's vote is opportunistic, alvinz basically said that it's a bandwagon vote. By *insisting* that HIS vote stayed on that same bandwagon, he contradicts himself by remaining on that very same bandwagon he complained about.

So you're wrong if you think that calling a bandwagon vote oportunistic and that then insisting that your vote stays on that same wagon isn't also opportunistic and contradictory.

[veerus]

Unvote

This unvote is to bring out more time for discussion

Rage, why would you unvote on someone who was only at 4 votes at the time to get a discussion going? Especially since your argument earlier in the post was against alvinz. To me, your unvote implies that you want a discussion about someone other than alvinz for no really good reason. And that's pretty suspicious.

[veerus]

Rage, why have you not answered my question in post 151 about your sudden unvote?

[veerus]

tl;dr?

[veerus]

Goat, I'm really just too lazy to find the stuff but as I read thru the game, there's more than one instance in which SC posted right after a case merely saying 'I agree'.

Scums often tattle because they know who the scums are and are too lazy to fake scumhunting.

Since SC usually followed Goatrevolt with his votes. Are you implying that you think GR is also scum?

[veerus]

Styro, i officially hate your avatar

Ditto

[veerus]

As time goes on, alvinz seems like an eager, overly defensive townie under unjust (in his eyes) pressure.

Unvote

Rage, your actions have been inconsistant and very, very scummy. I will

Vote: Rage

. Here's why.

1) Rage starts off the game by asking the name of the scum in this game. This earned him some early attention before being dismissed as inconsequential. In light of his later actions and my theory that he is scum, I submit that it was a poor attempt at playing a dumb townie to try and attack whoever replied with a suspicious suggestion.

2) He pulls off his early, non-random, "pressure" vote off of SC for no apparent reason as far as I can tell. He then votes for alvinz because he is being dismissive with his responses which, at the time, was a solid vote.

3) He unvotes alvinz in his very next post as a means of generating discussion, even though alvinz was in no danger of being lynched. I called him out on it at the time, so I won't go through it again. His excuse for this play was that he has a lot of games to keep track of, and that while alvinz seems "increasingly suspicious", he doesn't want to be on the wagon with people who share that line of thought. Which doesn't even make sense.

4) Then, after one empy post, he re-votes alvinz. However, THIS time his reasons are that he's likely an unhelpful townie, which is a poor play if you're a townie.

[veerus]

Sorry this is off-topic, but what happened with this Styro getting banned thing?

[veerus]

Nice post, sthar8. Some of your comments echoed my previously unvoiced suspicions (mainly on FL).

cerebus3: Nothing too scummy so far, but nothing to really clear you either.

Cerebus, I did a quick re-read of your posts and it occurs to me that your vote for Rage seems to be based purely on the fact that it is the new bandwagon in town and hopping on it is the cool thing to do. Care to elaborate?

forbiddanlight: High noise to signal ratio.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. FL spent a good portion of this day (and 10 days in real time) saying that she'll do a summary on everyone without really saying anything concrete in the process. Then in her analysis, she claims she'll likely vote alvinz only to vote skillit when she gets to him in her analysis. But that vote was well explained, so it's only a minor inconsistency. Her reply to sthar8's analysis post was basically "OMGUS, my post is better than your post". Not cool. In fact, you said that he made more noise with his post than you did. I disagree. He had to hastily go through the thread and post his analysis of the first three weeks of play, which he did within three days, while it took you nearly two weeks to do the same when the game could've been better served by your better analysis throughout the day instead. Also, and I just noticed this,

you completely left Megatheory off your summary and analysis

. Whether on purpose or not is yet to be determined, but the fact is, it's not there and such a blatant omission puts the quality of everything you said under question.

StrangerCoug: The first independantly scummy action from you was your modkill fishing. Several people have commented that they see no potential scum advantage to such an activity, but to my eyes it is blatantly obvious. As scum, getting a townie modkilled serves your win condition admirably.

QFE. This kind of flew under my radar. Thanks for mentioning it. As for SC in general, several people in this thread have played with him before (or checked out his meta) and the random skittish movements is how he plays. I can't say that it's a good way to play, but by itself, in D1 it's really a non-tell. His last two games that were cited earlier in the thread had him dying for the exact same style of play and in both games he turned up townie. Yes, he looks about as scummy as Rage for sort of the same reasons, but his history of poor plays gives him the tie-breaker for my D1 vote. He also became much more calm and reasoned after the initial fury of OMGUS comments.

veerus: Your case against Rage is weak on a few points, but his reaction is starting to validate it. I am concerned about two points of yours. The first was the false dilemma that Skillit reacted to so strongly, as it shows an odd lack of reasoning that doesn't mesh well with your examination of Rage. The second is your implication that SC's buddying to goat would somehow imply that goat was scum. If SC were looking for an easy case to follow, why would he want to leech off his scumparter?

I actually thought the voting thing with Skillit and alvinz was pretty logical.. /shrug. As for the implication that goat was scum, that's not what I said. I was asking Styro (whom you replaced I believe) if HIS comment implied that goat was scum. I currently don't think that goat is scum.

[veerus]

If you want me to be more specific I thought post 260 was pretty scummy.

Agreed. That's the post that ultimately made me vote him.

[veerus]

Explain how my reaction to going from one vote to four in over an hour is unreasoned.

Just for future reference, what is the requisite time I should wait before I vote someone for being scummy? Are you really saying that if I had waited say... 3 more hours, you would have accepted my vote?

There's no clear-cut answer. If I got caught fakeclaiming cop, for example, then waiting time between votes is irrelevant, but to be honest, you have to make a judgment call about it. The speed of the votes violated what I felt was acceptable given the circumstances.

uhhhh what??

[veerus]

So we have a doc and/or the Mafia decided not to kill anybody. I know I'm stating the obvious, but I'm throwing it out there.

Before I say anything else,

vote: forbiddanlight

. I hate the speed at which you hammered Rage, and you did not allow him the chance to explain his thinking when I put him at L-1. Denying the town information like you did is scummy.

Like what I said to Goat, did you forget the part where forbiddan claimed the hammer? This essentially makes your vote the hammer instead of hers.

I was thinking the same thing. Forbiddan did all but actually vote with her comments. SC's vote is also quite a departure from his earlier stance of not voting for Rage. However he did change it for a valid reason. I, too, am curious as to why Rage changed his tone with SC's FOS when he wanted nothing but votes before.. but I guess we'll never know.

I'd like to hear more from GhostWriter and Jshark, they were quiet in D1 and yet both managed to contribute to Rage's lynch. Also, sthar8's PBPA on forbiddan would be nice to see right about now as she is still one of my top suspects.

[veerus]

I'm kind of glazing over the whole skillit/FL argument. They have both been very verbose in this game with very little content, relatively speaking. FL's accusations, to me, are like the pot calling the kettle black.

I'd like to hear more from GhostWriter and Jshark, they were quiet in D1 and yet both managed to contribute to Rage's lynch. Also, sthar8's PBPA on forbiddan would be nice to see right about now as she is still one of my top suspects.

why?

Why what?

[veerus]

Why am I one of your top suspects? And also, my verbosity is a bit different than skillits. I try not to hit you all upside the head with it at once. Since (most of) my posts are relatively concise, you can seperate out scum tells easier. This is much harder with skillit, and I can't help but feel that's intentional.

Lotsa reasons. I originally stated the majority of my case against you in post 332, but I will reiterate them here.

You spent nearly the entire day in D1 claiming you'd do a summary/analysis on everyone (despite you seemingly ALWAYS being at the computer). Then when you finally do it, you don't even do it correctly and fail to mention all the players.

Then you OMGUS sthar8's analysis where he (correctly) calls you out on the high noise to signal ratio. Sure you've improved since but it doesn't excuse your earlier behavior. By my rough count, going by sthar8's PBPA, nearly 40% of your posts were noise.

On top of that, at least half of your "signal" posts have been a part of a rather verbose exchange with skillit in which neither of you really have a good case on one another. In fact, judging by your posts, you've barely considered anyone else as scum, choosing instead to zero in on skillit and throw stones at him from your glass house. And no, your posts aren't really easier to read than skillit's despite your own claim that they are.

The only real departure from this tunnel vision came when you said that Rage seemed equally as scummy as skillit to you, based on nothing but my own reasons (which started the wagon rolling), and that you wouldn't be against his lynch. Then, at approximately the same time as you initially called the hammer on Rage, you also dropped this gem to cover your ass:

Seriously, if Rage isn't scum, I think the scum are already on the wagon.

Despite being suspicious on its own merit, this statement is also inconsistant with your D2 actions as Rage did turn up town and yet you're still zeroed in on skillit.

Amazingly enough, your rapid hammer on Rage is the least suspicious of your actions thus far mainly because you did claim it.. over, and over, and over... and over, and over again. While I personally clear you of the rapid hammer, others haven't. And I can't blame them since it was pretty clear that a lot of the people wanted more answers from Rage than they got.

In fact, as I read this, I can't really find many pro-town actions out of you all game.

Vote: forbiddanlight

[veerus]

Despite being suspicious on its own merit, this statement is also inconsistant with your D2 actions as Rage did turn up town and yet you're still zeroed in on skillit.

YAY! BULLSHIT POINT! I WAS WORRIED YOU WERE AIRTIGHT! HAHAHA, Rage != skillit. The scumminess of one is NOT dependant on the scumminess of the other! I never SAID such either.

(sorry, felt good to have a point I could defend)

How is this a bullshit point? You can't "defend" a point by simply saying that you did.

Your statement specifically stated that if Rage isn't scum (which he wasn't), then scum are already on the wagon. At the time of that post cerebus3, megatheory and myself were on the wagon. Why haven't you quizzed any of us? Why are you so stuck on skillit?... don't answer that, I've seen your reasons.

Bottom line is that your statements and actions are contradictory.

[veerus]

Ok, well, I completely missed this before, but has anyone ELSE noticed Cerb hasn't put much reasoning behind his suspicions and either gone on or prepared to go on pretty much every wagon in this game? I'm glad I relooked at him.

I did... but he has so far agreed with my votes, so currently my point of view is kind of biased to really make a case out of it.

And cerebus, while it's a nice try given the recent discussion, I don't find FL's post here a deflection. As per earlier definition, she has stated her case and provided examples.

veerus, how did I go from well reasoned to pot calling the kettle black?

Around the time of your original vote, your posts, while high on noise, were more or less concise and to the point. You simply stated that skillit's posts were a lot of noise and not a lot of action -- something I actually agreed with. Currently your back and forth with skillit approaches the epic proportions of "War and Peace" and the reasons for your original vote on him have become just as valid for you.

[veerus]

Mmmkay.. I suppose while we wait for skillit, it would also be nice to hear something from Jshark and Goatrevolt and hopefully a nice long post from whoever replaces Ghostwriter.

[veerus]

I'm really sorry guys, but I've been having a tough time keeping up and with being V/LA on the weekends I have had trouble finding my pace in this game. I don't want you to think I'm lurking and I stated I would post more and I fully intend to.

That's nice, but you still haven't posted anything of substance... It would be fair to everyone involved if you asked to be replaced out of the game if you can't continue.

[veerus]

Good enough cerb. Just putting out some feelers.

I knew as I was writing the case it wouldn't stand up.

This feels like bussing to me.

[veerus]

Can we bring the whole skillit/forbiddan epic novel to a close now? A case has been stated and answered. Let the others decide.

I personally think that skillit's posting style is to post his stream of conciousness, maybe proof read it, and click submit. FL seems to have zeroed in on that and keeps sticking to her guns because his posts are longer than hers. (no, not really, but this is my way of saying you don't have a case)

[veerus]

FL, if you're pro-town as you claim to be, why are you doing nothing but anti-town things? It's bad enough that Rage got lynched by inviting more votes on himself. Now you're doing the same thing. If you genuinly want to help the town win, you should unvote on yourself and help the town find scum by using logic and not emotion. We've seen nothing from 3 players in D2 all of whom were under some sort of suspicion at some point in the game so far. Why, as a townie, would you want to end the day so quickly and leave so many questions unanswered for the second day in a row? If you keep self-destructing like this, I won't even feel bad if you really do turn up town.

In the meantime,

Unvote

. I call FL's vote as my proxy vote. When she decides to play the game and not throw temper tantrums, I will revote. Or if I see sufficient information out of the three "lurkers" - alvinz95, GhostWriter and Jshark (or their replacements) that doesn't sway me from the current case on FL.

[veerus]

blah blah blah blah blah

FL, you've discredited yourself throughout this game with your empty and narrow-minded accusations. So don't cry about how no one will believe you now.

[veerus]

For what it's worth, I've seen Goat's play in mini 601 (having started it and then following its developments after I got replaced) where his play was picture-perfect town and in the end he won the game as scum. But you just can't base your case on meta and "gut feelings".

[veerus]

I would hammer but we are waiting for replacements on 2(?) people and megatheory needs to catch up, and SC has limited access right now. Is alvinz around now?

It feels like we are playing a 6 person game.

For that precise reason, Goat and I have unvoted so she's at L-3 to give it more time as we wait for replacements.

[veerus]

WB mod. We're currently waiting (at least I am) for two replacements and a post from alvinz who has been quiet lately.

[veerus]

Welcome, you replaced someone who'd made about 5 posts the whole game. You need to re-read and post your thoughts on.. well, just about everything and everyone.

[veerus]

Also, if you don't think cerebus3 is that scummy, then why did you vote him in the first place?

I did at first. His response made me change my mind.

Good enough cerb. Just putting out some feelers. I knew as I was writing the case it wouldn't stand up.

So which is it?

mod: can we get an official vote count?

[veerus]

Mod.. what's the status on the Jshark replacement? He asked for it about 2-3 pages ago.

[veerus]

I disagree that we can lynch without hearing Jshark replacement's thoughts. We need the information now, not after the night kill. Along the same line of thinking, we need B&B's thoughts before we continue.

But while there's a lull as we wait for the players to catch up.. let's play devil's advocate.. what if FL is just a frustrated townie who just can't get any traction in her arguments and has all but given up? Who is your top suspect if she "flips" as she promises?

Why is SC so eager to lynch FL that he's even *confirming* his already placed vote? Will cerebus and goatrevolt examine anyone else besides FL in D2? Will skillit ever drop his time consuming argument with FL and consider the other 9 players in the game? And if he does, will he use an easier to read posting style? Will alvinz ever post his current thoughts on the game after not posting much of anything in over 3 weeks? Will we ever find a replacement for Jshark?... That's all I got.. megatheory & sthar8, don't feel left out.. it's just that I thought you weren't as one-tracked as everyone else seems to have been in D2 so far.

[veerus]

Nyeh, I return. I'm ashamed of you all. You did not even a page in my absence. Am I seriously the only thing you can think of to talk about? Hell, might as well lynch me and get your heads out of your asses.

That could be because nearly every other post in this thread is yours. With that absent, I could understand how the posting may seem light when you don't post. It is pretty obvious that the town has agreed on your lynch for today, if only in faith, and we're concentrating on other avenues while our replacement catches up.

skillit: nearly every one of your epic posts has been a reply to FL's epic posts, so yes,

that

argument.

alvinz: you are really stretching your arguments in a struggle to make a case on

anyone

. Your possible scum pairs don't seem to have any more evidence behind them than any other possible scum pair in this game. Your quotes are highly circumstantial and your reasoning for them is beyond comprehension (at least mine). Like your example of the exchange between SC and FL is nothing but pure speculation.

[veerus]

The SC/FL exchanges that alvinz pointed out seem like speculation to me. The exchanges could just as easily be classified as throw-away dialogue between two random players.

B&B, hope to see your post soon. I think a lot of everyone's theories will hinge on FL's alignment however, as has been noted, it is in town's best interest to see your thoughts before that. I don't really have much to add to the current discussion of alvinz's SC/FL relationship as it's largely based on a theory of a theory.

mod: any luck w/ JShark's replacement?

[veerus]

I think a lot of everyone's theories will hinge on FL's alignment

including my own.

True, but we need your "before" theory so we can put a true value on your "after" theory.

[veerus]

You've also attacked a few random people.. Do you want to reiterate your suspects in a couple short sentences? I'm sure your alignment will be telling to town in who you think is scum.

[veerus]

Goat, I think these vibes are a direct result of your success. Looking at your meta, you play scum very well. For example, in the Cog City mini that a few of us here played I personally didn't really think you were scum the whole game which ultimately won the game for you. In a game where paranoia is the name of the game, can you really blame people for acting on perceived fear? I must admit, that if I had the deciding vote between you and someone else in LYLO, all things even, I'd have a hard time not using your meta as the tiebreaker.

[veerus]

Just because I've had success in looking like a townie when I'm scum doesn't mean that whenever I look like a townie I'm scum.

Agreed.

[veerus]

Mod:

I'm not sure if you are US-based, but we had a 3-day weekend and many people skip town as the last summer hoorah.. Can we also get a vote count, please?

Fair enough. Veerus, return your vote to me. I'm taking your placeholder off.

Ok...

vote: forbiddanlight

.. I still think you're the best play for the day.

SC.. you've gone from attacking FL pretty hard at the start of D2 to jumping on alvinz so eagerly you forgot to vote for him and went straight to confirming your vote on him. As far as I could gather, your problem with him is that he has tunnel vision on *you*... which is valid. But, I must say that your play was pretty suspicious from the start and he did focus on you from early on in D1. Your play was dismissed by most (myself included) based on your meta which isn't a full proof argument to begin with. Also your self-destruction gambit idea is awful. Haven't we seen enough of it already? First Rage, then FL, now you.. Really? If you're a townie, you'd be doing scum a favor. And if you're scum and you actually go through with it, then you'd be doing the town a favor. Either way, it goes against your alignment. I am also of the opinion that some interactions between you and FL have been very friendly... too friendly, which only lends alvinz's suspicions more credit.

As for alvinz's "you know" comment.. it

could

be a slip.. but it just as well

could

be an emphasis on his confidence. Just like *I know* that lynching FL is the best play today. Not having a back-up plan isn't a valid argument either. Each new alignment revelation likely destroys more "card houses" than it strengthens. If you think too far ahead, you end up speculating too much and diluting the discussion with a lot of poorly reasoned arguments.

And, FL, I was going to call you out on hypocrisy but you did that all on your own. But..

It's completely trashing all the advantage we had from the doctor save. Is there ANY pro town reason for you to lynch yourself if you know you are town? And saying teaching alvinz tunnel vision fails isn't an answer since that's just being selfish in a way. You "HAVE" to be right. You do realize that by the end of the game everyone's role will be known and alvinz will be proven wrong or right then, right?

I must mention this as another point against you in the long-running list of inconsistencies that were outlined in my initial vote.

[veerus]

As for alvinz95 being cop, nowhere did I say he had to be sane. I just said he had to have a guilty on me if he really did know. If alvinz95 is cop and I am town, then he's either insane or paranoid.

Is there anything else that anyone would like to clear up?

If he's a cop, would he really claim this early in the game? I doubt it, especially since he already claimed vanilla. And you're really going out on the limb with your speculation here. IF alvinz95 is a cop (unknown) AND you're town (unknown), then surely the supposed cop's guilty readings on you are false (unconfirmed).

[veerus]

Well fuck all of you then.

Vote for...

Just kidding.

MOD THAT IS NOT A VOTE!

Anyway, moving along, have fun losing town. Fucking up the doctor's advantage was the only thing you accomplished today. I hope you all die in a fire of false accusation

Go fuck yourselves. I'm done with this shit.

I really hope the moderators of this message board ban you for such unneccesary behavior and language. I certainly would not want to play another game with you.

[veerus]

I don't like this paragraph one bit. First of all, I'll start with this part:

At this point, though, a good number of the theories being discussed assume you to be scum, and we can't act on any of them until after you're dead.

Alvinz is the only person who has really pushed any theories about who is scum with Forbiddan. I mentioned possibilities, and BaB mentioned something about me fitting, but neither of us really pushed those at all. In other words, the only person pushing theories whatsoever about who is scum with Forbiddan is Alvinz.

This is a stretch. Everyone who's voting for FL obviously has reason to think she's scum. However, since this is the game of imperfect information, theories that hinge on her alignment may or not be correct. Just because not everyone has voiced their assumptions doesn't mean that no one else is thinking of them.

So at this point I find Sthar8 to be the scummiest. BaB I still also think is scum, and my best guess at a 3rd suspect would be Veerus. I liked Rage's analysis on Cerebus/Veerus in 806. Forbiddan I'm not sure on, but I think if Sthar/Veerus end up being scum it would mostly clear her and at the moment I find it more likely that they are.

How did I get thrown into this mix? This is the first time I've seen you mention me and you don't even bother to back it up.

This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks attacking FL, giving well-presented justifications and examples of her scumminess and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that she's not even a top 3 suspect? This looks like an opportunistic attempt to save your partner in a quick bandwagon right before the deadline now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people.

FOS: Goatrevolt

[veerus]

Which is exactly why we now have a deadline.

Still no word on any replacements for cerebus3. I am still looking.

What happens at deadline?

[veerus]

First of all, why is Veerus defending my attack on Sthar prior to Sthar even defending it himself? I attack Sthar and Veerus comes to his defense? That serves to reinforce my opinion that they are scum together, but that can be dealt with later after we see Sthar's alignment.

I must say, Goat, you're pretty good at putting words into people's mouths and railroading them for stuff they didn't say.

1.

I did not defend Shtar from your attack

.. I only attacked your faulty assumptions that just because no one is voicing their theories doesn't mean they don't have any.
2. You DID mention me as a suspect, so your post was an attack of sorts on me as well

This is a stretch. Everyone who's voting for FL obviously has reason to think she's scum. However, since this is the game of imperfect information, theories that hinge on her alignment may or not be correct. Just because not everyone has voiced their assumptions doesn't mean that no one else is thinking of them.

It's not a stretch at all. Why is Sthar using theories of someone he finds scummy as additional reasoning to justify a lynch of a player? When I see someone add justification to a case that simply isn't meaningful, doesn't indicate that a player is scum, or doesn't fit with their current or previous stances then it sets off huge alarm bells. This justification by Sthar8 doesn't fit with his stance that Alvinz is scum, and furthermore who is scum with forbiddan is completely meaningless towards determining whether or not forbiddan actually is scum.

Just to emphasize my point above that you're making baseless attacks,

my post did not defend Sthar

. If anything, it defended many of the other players (myself included) who have yet to present a theory on FL's scum partners. Your arguments assume that FL isn't scum when from the looks of it most of the town feels like she is. Theories on her being scum are a waste of time since we don't know if she is.. we just know that her

play

has been scummy.

This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks attacking FL, giving well-presented justifications and examples of her scumminess and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that she's not even a top 3 suspect? This looks like an opportunistic attempt to save your partner in a quick bandwagon right before the deadline now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people.

FOS: Goatrevolt

You couldn't be more wrong here.

1. There is 9 days until deadline. It certainly isn't right before a deadline.
2. If I were scum and wanted to save my scum buddy forbiddanlight with a quick bandwagon right before the deadline, I would have picked a target that it could have happened on, like Alvinz or StrangerCoug. Instead, I'm pushing a target who has remained almost completely unsuspected the entire game. This is a completely offbase accusation.
3. "Now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people" Show me the suspicion cast on Sthar8. Then I will yield this point.
4. Changing my mind isn't scummy as you seem to want to portray it as. I see weak attacks on Forbiddan, and scummy justification for lynching her. I change my opinion on her based on that and instead attack those pushing weak attacks.

1. This day has gone on for a month.. 9 days can be considered as right before the deadline... especially if you consider the posting frequency of some players.
2. This is WIFOM. You're gambling either way, and with alvinz and SC being in their own little world that no one seems to be paying attention to, a fresh suspect is not an offbase play.
3. see #2
4. Changing your mind isn't scummy. Changing your mind when you've been pushing FL for the better part of D2 *is* scummy. Changing your mind and downgrading your top suspect from the past 3 weeks to completely off the radar is VERY scummy.

I think it's extremely telling that Veerus is using the "chainsaw defense" to defend Sthar8. As soon as I attack Sthar8, he steps up and defends Sthar and then attacks me right back. Classic scum buddy defense right there, especially since his reasons for attacking me are completely off base. I just put my balls on the line for forbiddanlight, and if she's scum, then I'm going to have a hard time defending myself. Does that makes sense from the perspective of us being scum buddies together? Even if we were scum buddies and I was ballsy enough to stand up and defend her at L-2 with people not voting her stating their intent to do so (basically, she was going to be lynched) then why would I attack literally one of the most unsuspected players in the game?

I find it scummy how you put words in my mouth and misuse terms (presumably because "chainsaw" sounds intimidating) to create further confusion and strengthen your argument. Please show where in my post I defended Sthar. Use quotes... I'm guessing they'll probably say something along the lines of "I think you're wrong about Sthar because..." You won't find them because

I didn't defend Sthar

.

As for your argument about it making sense for you to defend your scumbuddy FL at L-2.. that's more WIFOM. I find it interesting how your post is full of it.

Finally, I'll leave you with this bit addressed to Veerus:

This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks defending Goatrevolt, giving well-presented justifications and examples of why players' baseless attacks on him aren't meaningful and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that he's a suspect? This looks like an opportunistic attempt to save your partner by using the chainsaw defense right before the deadline now that there has been some suspicion cast on him.

I did not spend the past 3 weeks defending you. I only made a couple of posts at one point where I said that you did not strike me as scum and I wasn't going to claim that you are based on meta alone (like FL did). Since you like to repeat the fact that my post defended Sthar, I'll repeat that

my post made NO mention of your attacks on Sthar whatsoever

.

[veerus]

That isn't the only reason that I no longer think FL is town. Perhaps she's exceptionally skilled at WIFOM and I'm buying into it but I feel

her play has been pro-town as of late

. Her suggestion that we lynch her so the town can move on to discussing other targets, thus expressing worry about the town losing track of scum by focusing solely on one target, speaks to me of a pro-town mindset. Her dropping of suspicion on me after I stopped attacking her doesn't come as a surprise to me, as I considered her attack on me to be 100% OMGUS anyway.

At this point, I really get the feeling that forbiddan is a mislynch and thus I am switching targets.

How do you explain away her earlier inconsistant behavior that got her into her current predicament?

[veerus]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

forbiddanlight - (4) Goatrevolt, alvinz95, veerus, sthar8

alvinz95 - (2) StrangerCoug, forbiddanlight
BridgesAndBalloons - (1) Megatheory

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch a player - YOU ARE IN L-1.

Didn't Goat move his vote to sthar8 too?

[veerus]

Megatheory, you asked everyone for their opinions, but you failed to express yours if FL is scum (I'm assuming your listed possibilities are if FL is town). Also, how was I OMGUSy with Goat? I simply took issue with one of his many points of emphasis that I felt was invalid.

If FL is scum, two out of B&B, Goat and SC are likely to be scum.

If she's town.. then I'm truly at a loss.. She has shown such a mountain of tells that if she's not scum, I would have to re-read the whole game from the start. It would make sense however that the possible scum would be the ones she attacked -- skillit and alvinz.

It also makes it difficult to determine potential suspects since cerebus is still out without replacement and skillit has all but disappeared since his epic argument with FL ended.

[veerus]

OK, now what? Something has to be wrong with the vote here too—it also still has me as voting alvinz95 when I switched seven posts before that. If that's the only thing wrong, then forbiddanlight should have been lynched.

I'm completely and utterly confused as to what the count should be.

That's a good catch, SC. However, before your vote, Goat moved his to sthar8 as I initially said but apparently the mod missed it, so your vote put FL back to L-1. Goat's switch is here and here.

Someone should check the vote count since the mod keeps missing votes.

[veerus]

Post 1

: Goatrevolt had just voted for Rage 1.0 because he asked what the name of the scum were in the game, and StrangerCoug said he agreed, accompanied with his vote. In this post, alvinz made a 'comment' about what he thought of StrangerCoug's vote, and said that his vote will remain on Rage 1.0.

I have an issue with this post, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post it, since it may be a conflict of interest because I do

resemble

Rage 1.0

*hint hint*

.

This doesn't sit well with me. It looks like an attempt to try too hard at implying that he's a townie just like Rage 1.0. Since Rage 1.0 was townie, there's absolutely no information that he would have as 1.0 that he wouldn't have as 2.0.

FL's defense of this point makes me think that if she's scum, Rage is quite possibly her partner (though this post by Rage is suspicious regardless). Also, now that I'm thinking about it.. if I remember correctly, it seems to me that the only other person for whom she answered questions not directed at her is Goat. It's something to keep in mind when re-reading..

[veerus]

Hey FL.. what are the odds of you volunteering to replace cerebus3? It's obviously not the best solution but I'm sure it's not easy to find a replacement for a 2-day, 40-page game. This way it would at least preserve a player and not force the mod to modkill him due to inactivity or whatnot.

The other option is to see if there's a NK and see if that person wants to replace. Of course this is less ideal because if cerebus is a power role, he'd miss a night action..

[veerus]

Hey FL.. what are the odds of you volunteering to replace cerebus3? It's obviously not the best solution but I'm sure it's not easy to find a replacement for a 2-day, 40-page game. This way it would at least preserve a player and not force the mod to modkill him due to inactivity or whatnot.

The other option is to see if there's a NK and see if that person wants to replace. Of course this is less ideal because if cerebus is a power role, he'd miss a night action..

Well, if FL is scum, as you believe, then she can't replace in for another player...

Hmm... good point.. I didn't think of that.

[veerus]

Then what will happen to cerebus if we don't find the replacement in the near future?

[veerus]

Post 264:

As time goes on, alvinz seems like an eager, overly defensive townie under unjust (in his eyes) pressure.

Unvote

Rage, your actions have been inconsistant and very, very scummy. I will

Vote: Rage

. Here's why.

1) Rage starts off the game by asking the name of the scum in this game. This earned him some early attention before being dismissed as inconsequential. In light of his later actions and my theory that he is scum, I submit that it was a poor attempt at playing a dumb townie to try and attack whoever replied with a suspicious suggestion.

2) He pulls off his early, non-random, "pressure" vote off of SC for no apparent reason as far as I can tell. He then votes for alvinz because he is being dismissive with his responses which, at the time, was a solid vote.

3) He unvotes alvinz in his very next post as a means of generating discussion, even though alvinz was in no danger of being lynched. I called him out on it at the time, so I won't go through it again. His excuse for this play was that he has a lot of games to keep track of, and that while alvinz seems "increasingly suspicious", he doesn't want to be on the wagon with people who share that line of thought. Which doesn't even make sense.

4) Then, after one empy post, he re-votes alvinz. However, THIS time his reasons are that he's likely an unhelpful townie, which is a poor play if you're a townie.

Prior to this post, veerus said nothing about any of this except for the second point. Very suspicious.

Because up until that post, I didn't put two and two together. Rage's comments right before that post made me suspicious of his vote movements therefore I voiced them at that time.

[veerus]

Hey FL.. what are the odds of you volunteering to replace cerebus3?

if FL turns town, does anyone think this is a slip?

It's a protown question about not losing a possible townie due to inactivity because if he is indeed town, a modkill would mean a free kill for the mafia cancelling out the lack of kill that we had on N1.

[veerus]

Something to think about: When I said I found FL town and pushed my case on Sthar instead, both Sthar and Veerus pushed to keep pressure on FL and get her lynched, and Veerus both tossed suspicion on me and defended Sthar at the same time.

I did NOT defend Sthar.. we've been through this. Why are you still telling those fairy tales? As for FL.. she was *by far* the scummiest and most inconsistent player in the first two days. How can you possibly even think of defending that kind of behavior? Of course I accused you of being scummy for that. Ignoring obviously scummy behavior and focusing on people who have been scum-hunting is highly suspicious and not at all pro-town. This is a game of imperfect information so unless someone is a cop, it's perfectly understandable for them to observe conflicting tells and voice their concerns as such.

Other than that, the two have seriously not acknowledged the other's presence in this game at all. That's a perfect match for scum buddies right there.

Yet another lie. Take a look at page 14. That's when Sthar8 came in with his analysis of all players after he replaced into the game. He and I both answered each other's questions and posted some analysis. That's a little more than "not acknowledging".

You like to twist people's words a lot. Since you've started your off-shoot attack on Sthar8 (throwing my name in there whenever you can), I've called you out on several attempts to twist my words and create misconceptions. For that you are currently one of my top suspects, which is ironic considering you seemed one of the towniest in D1.

Also, I feel that if there is a doctor or other role that prevented a kill that first night, they should claim and also claim the player they saved as it would confirm 2 players as pro-town and narrow down our search by a lot. What's the consensus on this?

Why do you think the doctor/roleblocker should claim? How would a doctor/rb claim help the town at this stage? What if Sthar claims doctor/rb? Since he's your top suspect, would you even believe him?

[veerus]

You can keep denying it, but you attacking one of my points against Sthar is indirectly defending him from that same point.

False -- I attacked the point that I perceived as untrue and an accusation against more than one player.

Of course I accused you of being scummy for that. Ignoring obviously scummy behavior and focusing on people who have been scum-hunting is highly suspicious and not at all pro-town.

Entirely subjective. Scum Hunting is a term that implies one searching for and trying to find scum. Your actions, and those of Sthar strike me as "bad townie hunting," or looking for a townie who has made enough mistakes to serve as a suitable lynch without looking at the bigger picture or whether or not they actually seem likely to be scum. Your unwillingness to even consider me possibly being right about FL, and instead pushing her harder and me as a scum buddy strikes me as someone pushing townie mislynches, not scum hunting.

The only thing I was unwilling to do was discount everything scummy FL did. I made my case on her early in D2 and it was never contradicted by the rest of the players nor was it properly defended by FL. The fact that she was at L-1 several times during D2 and was finally lynched only confirms that the town agreed she deserved to be lynched based on her play. Short of a confirmed cop's claim, it was inevitable.

This is a game of imperfect information so unless someone is a cop, it's perfectly understandable for them to observe conflicting tells and voice their concerns as such.

But yet it's scummy for me to voice concern over the FL lynch and observe conflicting tells to suggest she's town?

No, but it's scummy for you to be hypocritical and attack one of the people for the same thing you just claimed to do.

I was merely saying that the two of you have more or less focused exclusively on other targets the entire game, coordinating your attack on FL, and you've stepped up to defend each other when I attacked yesterday.

More fairy tales from our resident storyteller.

1. You do know that there

are

innocents here, right? Not everyone looks suspicious nor is scum. I haven't really seen you focus on skillit much or cerebus. You don't see me calling you and/or them scum because of that, do you?

2. That's preposterous. How did we coordinate an attack on FL? By voting her for legit reasons? Considering you spent much of D2 with a vote on her while attacking her for much the same reasons, this is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.

3. Once again, I did not defend him and he definitely didn't defend me. Just because you keep repeating it, doesn't make it true.

I think the doctor roleblocker should claim because if we mislynch today it's game over. Clearing 2 targets of being possible mislynches right off the bat gives us a smaller number of suspects to look at, and allows us to analyze information based on people's confirmed alignments that we normally would not have unless they were dead.

If Sthar claims doctor and can provide an uncounterclaimed result from the first night, then I'd be inclined to believe him. It seems highly unlikely that the scum would willfully select not to kill night 1, and thus an uncounterclaimed claim of that sorts would be one that I would almost certainly believe.

So only claims you believe will be the ones that are not counterclaimed? That seems illogical and unrealistic.

Personally, I'm actually in favor of a mass claim straight up. I want all information on the table for this lynch. We lose if we do it wrong, why wouldn't we want the most possible information out to do it right?

For once, I'm not sure if I disagree with you.

[veerus]

I understand the reasoning for mass-claiming as it would at least give us a chance to clear one or two people. Here's the problem I have with it -- if the doctor/rb claims and we still end up lynching town, then it's game over for sure since the doctor/rb would get NK'd. This is the scenario you are not mentioning with your suggestion of a mass claim.

[veerus]

I had an idea this morning.. There's no reason to mass claim as it would likely oust power roles (since town:scum ratio is getting pretty close to even).

We know that we are dealing with 3 scum. We know the town had a vig. It is highly likely that the town has a doctor or at the very least a roleblocker. Therefore it would be logical to assume that we probably have a cop (I think mafia would be too powerful if we didn't... anyone agree/disagree with this?). I think the cop should claim and disclose the results from the past two nights. That would narrow down the search. In addition, if we have a roleblocker, he should claim too and say whom he blocked in N1 since that's almost a sure scum.

If these two (if present in the setup) claim, the town should be able to lynch mafia with a relatively high degree of success.

[veerus]

veerus: So you want any cops, docs, or roleblockers we might have to claim? That's gotta be pretty close to a massclaim in this circumstance. What's the difference?

No, you misunderstand (or I wasn't clear). I only want up to two people to claim -- cop and rb if they are present. A cop's results from the first two nights should provide good information. The rb should claim with whom they blocked in N1 as that's a possible scum. Granted it could've been a doctor protection that saved someone on N1, but as someone pointed out earlier, if we lynch a townie today, a doctor's protection is our only realistic chance at avoiding a town loss therefore it's in the town's best interest to not oust the doctor early.

[veerus]

So would you further restrict that plan to include only information that is useful? For example, if a RB blocked alvinz on N1, we wouldn't need him to claim, right?

That would be a logical exception.

[veerus]

Note: if Skillit doesn't respond to his prod by tomorrow, he will be replaced.

Oh damn.. here we go again...

[veerus]

If the concensus is on a mass-claim, then popcorn is best. It will probably work the same way as a random vote at the start of a game, which for scum is never that random. And this way you also get to name your top suspect.

[veerus]

Sorry, I'm around.. just waiting for my turn in the mass claim.

[veerus]

same

It probably wouldn't hurt if you posted some kind of a summary on all the players since you just replaced in and haven't really had the chance to contribute all that much.

[veerus]

Really? After all of your accusations on Sthar8, you ask me to claim before him? That's highly inconsistent. Why did you pick me?

Anyway, I was hoping I wouldn't have to claim this early as I'm afraid it might give mafia an easy out for a role. But here goes.

Claim:

doctor

.

I protected Megatheory on both nights. After there was no kill on N1, I knew he was a confirmed townie. I had no reason to switch off protection from a confirmed townie so I did the same in N2. But when he was killed despite my protection, my initial thoughts were to assume that I was non-sane. However with 3 scum, a non-sane doctor would be unbalancing. Therefore there must be a roleblocker in our midst.

Skillit.. you've been kind of quiet since your big ordeal with FL. Your turn.

[veerus]

vanilla - who is left?

Sthar8, Rage, BAB, Electra

[veerus]

Just to point this out: ^^^ That's what she said.

Hah. Nice. Well done, Michael.

[veerus]

Goat, why did you pick me to claim over Sthar?

[veerus]

Post 1067 was referring to today. If we lynch a townie and I don't protect correctly overnight, we lose as tomorrow it will be 3 town vs 3 scum which is an automatic scum win. Considering there's a mafia RB, I will likely not be able to save someone overnight, therefore we are for all intents and purposes in LYLO.

[veerus]

We might as well make a list of our top suspects.

I was getting a townie vibe from cerebus before and Electra hasn't done anything to change that. I'm not too sure on the last townie though but if I had to make a guess right now, I would probably clear Rage 2.0.

[veerus]

I believe Sthar's claim.. here's why:
1) When I was roleblocked, I didn't get an answer either. Seeing that Megatheory was killed in N2 despite the protection made me quite furious which resulted in a fruitless exchange with the mod.

2) His cop claim was not counter-claimed and in this setup, there *must* be a cop otherwise the setup would be too unbalanced. Therefore he must be telling the truth.

I'm seeing arguments and questions between those I consider most scummy. As this is effectively LYLO, it's quite possible that scum have began to make moves against each other to induce additional confusion.

Keeping up with the spirit of the election here in the US, I say let's resolve this in a very mathematical and democratic way. I suggest that

everyone

should list their top 3 suspects and assign a power to them 1, 2 or 3, with 3 being their main suspect. We will then count up the votes and the one with the most votes gets hung. There are 5 townies and 3 scum.. in theory, this should work in town's favor. In addition, as far as I'm concerned, we have 3 confirmed townies (sthar, goat and myself). I like the odds of having to pick between 5 people with a 60% chance of picking scum.

I'll start.

3. BAB
2. SC
1. skillit

[veerus]

I don't like the plan veerus. There is way too much leeway for scum manipulation. They put their buddies around 2-3, and they manipulate that top spot to hit a townie. If townies can remain undivided enough to pick out scum and lynch them, then we can do so through a normal lynch, rather than a process that allows plenty of scum manipulation.

Well, I was thinking that 5 (3 confirmed) townies vs 3 scum would favor the odds for a scum lynch. /shrug

Without giving weight to suspects, if everyone would list their top suspects, we can probably agree on someone who's probably on everyone's list.

Other than that.. I haven't had the time to re-read completely yet so I can't provide quotes, but the impression that I have is that both BAB and SC have been all over the place with their views throughout the game throwing suspicion whereever they can land it (BAB's latest speed-vote on SC being highly suspicious). My third suspect is skillit primarily based on the observation that after his argument with FL faded, he hasn't really contributed anything useful to the game until perhaps his last post questioning BAB's speed-vote.

I still want to see Electra's thoughts on everyone in the game as she hasn't provided anything useful from the time she replaced in.

[veerus]

P.S. Another notch against BAB is that he's gotten very vote happy which is not exactly a pro-town tactic considering we're in LYLO. (voting SC and threatening to vote me)

[veerus]

how is my latest speed vote on SC suspicious?

Look at, and reply to, skillit's post.

[veerus]

Unless I am persuaded otherwise by the other two confirmed townies (goat & sthar8), I will probably cast my vote for BAB soon. I have a few reasons for this.

BAB seems to never have a solid opinion that he sticks to and many of his actions seem to be hasty which is highly suspicious at this stage of the game. Namely, he's way too liberal with his votes. He threatened to outright vote for me earlier for my poorly thoughtout voting count. He voted SC quickly, on a whim and in response to a statement from a non-confirmed town without really giving his reasoning for the vote. As others have pointed out, Electra's statement also implicated BAB which didn't stop him from using it to cast a vote on his scum buddy. (on a side note, since Electra named two "townie" looking people, she indirectly implied that she's scum). BAB's "town doesn't have a chance" comment also stinks.

This seems like much fanfare about nothing concrete. Inconcise =/= scummy. BaB voting for SC doesn't mean that he's admitting to being scum.

True, but his vote in LYLO without an explanation doesn't inspire confidence either.

Goat's suspicions from D2 also raise alarms since BAB was unable to produce a good enough defence for his statements. In addition, some of his recent posts are full of misinformation. He fails to include himself in his little list of possible scum (psychological attempt.. out of sight - out of mind?). He claims that skillit was the only one questioned him about his SC vote when it was SC, skillit, myself, in that order. I realize I'm sort of rehashing some of the recent posts, but I've been thinking about it since yesterday.. just haven't had time to post.

I am

still

waiting for a list of thoughts on all players from Electra since she wasn't present for most of the game... she also hasn't really contributed much since her replacement, choosing to make relatively small posts without much content. As I said before, I had a townie vibe from Cerebus, but that may quickly change if such passive approach doesn't change.

Also, Rage, by claiming we (sthar and I) have effectively waived our ability to be the powerrole unless we lynch the mafia RB today. While BAB is most scummy, I do not think he's the mafia RB due to his predecessor's lack of activity in D1. This highly speculative and unfounded theory would be my biggest reason to try and get lucky by lynching the RB instead of what looks like a sure-scum on BAB.

[veerus]

But what I don't get is how you can say you will advocate a BAB lynch even though you think he isn't the RB, but also say that if we don't hit the Roleblocker we lose? I see nothing wrong with thinking the latter, but saying you'll lynch scum but want to lynch scum roleblocker is a little conflicting. Could you clear your position on this up, please?

I didn't say that if we don't lynch a mafia RB, we lose. I said that unless we lynch a mafia RB today, both town power-roles are nullified and we're reduced to simple townies.

[veerus]

The self-vote is a misdirection play at best as the mod indicated earlier in the game that he does not count self-votes (ref: FL voting herself closer to deadline). As pointed above, the gambit doesn't make much sense whatever way you look at it however a misdirection attempt is scummy in all scenarios.

Goat's point about the three-man push on BaB is the only thing giving me pause on the whole thing. However his recent erratic posting does not help with clearing him. We need to consider the possibility that one of the three is a townie while the other two scum have decided to throw away the most obvious scum to make our next day decision harder. To take this further (and I'm thinking/speculating out loud here), since everyone has claimed, a non-RB scum is an acceptable casualty at this point because the scum-RB needs to survive today to cancel out the town's power roles. If this line of thinking is correct and BAB is indeed scum, he's almost definitely not the scum-RB.

[veerus]

Cerebus threw a few short, but relevant questions at SC early in the game that even now don't really raise many alarm bells. There's been even less interaction with Electra.. and almost none the other way. Which I guess is the point if you're trying to stay out of each other's way. On the other hand, cerebus seemed town to me so I can't really blame SC for that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not entirely sold on the Electra/SC scumpair. However, since my top suspects are BAB/SC, I have no problems lynching SC... he seems to be the common denominator in almost all scenarios.

[veerus]

EBWOP: Goat, where does Electra's latest vote on SC fit in your scumpair theory?

[veerus]

Sthar brings up some valid points about Electra/cerebus' behavior, but I'm not sure they outweigh the scumminess displayed by SC and BaB.

mod:

Please note that I will be V/LA until Tuesday the 14th.

[veerus]

mod: I'm back.. could you please post the latest vote count?

Will post something of substance tomorrow.

[veerus]

Wow.. no one has anything to say? Mmmkay.

From what I've seen, Goat's read is generally pretty good. On following his intent to vote SC, I've looked at some of SC's plays from a couple of previous games (namely the game SC referenced and the one Goat linked). Here are some things I noticed here that are different from those games:

- this is the only game I've seen where SC tries "too hard" by

confirming

several of his votes, which goes along with Goat's impression of him being concerned with his image. His confirmations always seemed a little weird to me and they seem to have only come against the popular targets at that time.
- all of SC's votes in the game, except for a weak vote against skillit early on were against confirmed townies who ended up dying (generally via a lynch). In the one game he was scum, he shot an early weak vote at his scum buddy. However his scum buddy was a newbie and ended up getting lynched with SC's help in D2, but not before SC hammered a town in D1.
- in a game where he was town and in LYLO, he seemed to be productive, going as far as posting PBPA's on everyone. Here he seems to have just latched onto BAB.

Based on the latest rereads, I believe that SC's scum partners are BAB and skillit. BAB's been well discussed. Skillit has been pretty much a non-factor since FL was lynched. This also seems to fit several of my other guesses as well:
- SC and BAB attack each other as they're both bordering on very scummy and when one gets lynched, the other would appear that much more cleaner
- skillit/SC/Electra attack BAB as pointed out by Goat. As I believe I mentioned earlier, I thought that it's quite likely that out of that trio, there might be one misguided townie. I am pretty convinced of that now.

I guess the conclusion here is that, as I stated earlier, I'd be ok with either a BAB or SC lynch.

[veerus]

I've been thinking that skillit is scummy since I realized that he all but disappeared from the discussion shortly after FL was lynched. The reason I have him listed as your scum buddy is because I think he's scum and you're scum, ergo....

The only reason I'm not pressing Electra is because of her predecessor's play who gave off a strong townie vibe to me. If she keeps actively lurking, I may re-examine that stance.

[veerus]

I am suspicious of everyone.. you're just not at the top of my list.

It is highly curious that after returning to your "normal" posting, you have failed to post anything of substance while a deadline is looming.

Who do you think should be lynched at deadline and why?

That question applies to everyone who has yet to chime in (ie. everyone except Goat, myself and SC).

[veerus]

skillit, I've called you and Electra out. Your post frequency has been no where near what it was when FL was around. Perhaps you just seem quiet by comparison... bygones.

Yes, you were active and quizzed BAB but after he made a post and then asked to repeat any unanswered questions.. you didn't, which tells me that his short post answered all of your concerns. Personally, I don't see how considering he claimed he didn't really understand your post.

I invite everyone to review skillit's voting history. You have barely submitted any votes. In fact, outside of your random vote, the only two people you pinged are SC and alvinz. You and SC had an OMGUS episode where you voted for each other and then both panicked when a train rapidly built up on SC. You don't seem to vote lightly or often and yet your vote on SC came both early and lightly (weak reason: tattling when he tried to clarify a rule). This all happened on page 3 and I believe it supports the earlier link between SC and skillit.

[veerus]

Yeah, I'm not really following sthar8's vote either. It's not very pro-town to effectively vote a "no-lynch" and skip town. This is the first time I've doubted his claim.

Sthar, if you're still reading, please at least make an early night action otherwise it may go to waste with you being gone.

On the other hand though.. a no lynch here means that we're still in LYLO but with one less vote and one less target. I suppose it's not the end of the world but it's not all that great either..

[veerus]

The reason why it's reasonable to think that there's a cop is because if you consider the set up (12 people, 3 mafia with 1 rb), the only way it could even be remotely balanced is if the town has a cop in addition to doctor and vig. Considering everyone has claimed vanilla and now would've been a good time for power-roles to claim, I can only conclude that there are no other power roles.

However, I agree that a No Lynch is something we definitely do not want. Speaking of which:

On the other hand though.. a no lynch here means that we're still in LYLO but with one less vote and one less target. I suppose it's not the end of the world but it's not all that great either..

A no lynch, if both of you are telling the truth, means either you or Sthra8 is roleblocker, and the other is killed. I find it peculiar how you fail to mention that..

Lynch or no lynch, sthar will likely die tonight. If there's no lynch or plain mafia lynch, he dies for sure. If there's a lynch and we get the rb, then I die. It's simple mechanics. Obviously I want to lynch someone.. I'm just saying that a no lynch is not the end of the world.

[veerus]

Well, with the deadline looming, it's go time.

Vote: StrangerCoug

[veerus]

Deadline is imminent. Rage, are you planning on voting SC so the day doesn't end in a no-lynch? If so, I suggest you do so now.

[veerus]

:arrow: :arrow: I really want everyone (Goat, Veerus, and Sthar8 especially) to AT LEAST comment on this issue. i feel like ive done the leg work. and i dont get the impression anyone has been following along ( i feel like goat early D1) If you havent, thats ok. my post here, and the one right after it are my summation of pretty much the case on BaB as i see it.

His 'answer' is the jumbled mess that is post 1304 - it makes it easiest to just look for the parts where he appears to be addressing me.

skillit, at this point it is simply too late to lynch BAB before the deadline. If you have the town's interest in mind, you should submit a vote on SC. I will examine your case on BAB tomorrow, but considering your lack of a vote this close to the deadline tells me that I probably shouldn't since it's all a bunch of lies anyway.

Goat, do you realize that you've named as likely scum the two people who are yet to vote? Considering neither one has made a vote even though they posted this close to the deadline tells me that we've got all of our scum pegged (sc/skillit/rage) and after the no lynch today and a NK at night, we'll be down to 7 people with 4 townies, which is still a win for the town.

[veerus]

No cop? Really? Wow..

Nice RB in N2, skillit.

Goat, I think if you asked sthar to claim early instead of me, the game might've gone a little differently. Being one of the last to claim, his gambit to claim cop worked.

Overall, I think the town played poorly in this game.

[veerus]

sthar.. why did you have mega pegged as a vig and how did you know I had a power?

[veerus]

All the scum played well. skillit had some crazy lucky roleblocks, but then again, sthar8 had an uncanny read on just about everyone in the game so maybe it wasn't all that lucky. I guess there was no scum thread so we can't see what they were talking about.

Dean, you said there were a couple times where town could've turned it to their advantage. Can you elaborate? It's probably easier for you than for me to re-read the entire thread with hindsight 20/20. Thanks.

FL, why is it bad to claim with an even # of people?

[veerus]

Meh.. the town on the whole played poorly and the unusual setup plus the spot-on RB's by skillit only made the town look even more incompetent.