Mini 630: Council of Eville: Game Ovah!

[BridgesAndBaloons]

we're now at L-1, just so everyone knows.

Let me be specific: Is there anyone who doesn't want the day to end yet? Why?

Also, if I'm alive tomorrow, then I'll be glad to defend myself against Goat's attacks on me. (regardless on if

he's

alive or not) I just don't really see the point of defending myself when I'm not going to be lynched.

[forbiddanlight]

Also, if I'm alive tomorrow, then I'll be glad to defend myself against Goat's attacks on me. (regardless on if he's alive or not) I just don't really see the point of defending myself when I'm not going to be lynched.

Why are you so sure of that? And also, wouldn't it make it a bit easy for you to defend yourself if goat were to accidentally die overnight? Oh dear, there goes any case against you, and you can claim it was WIFOM that goat died. No dice. If someone hammers me I will HAUNT their ass for doing the exact same thing I did. Yes, I am that hypocritical. And obviously Rage is haunting me .

[Rage]

we're now at L-1, just so everyone knows.

Let me be specific: Is there anyone who doesn't want the day to end yet? Why?

I'd like to complete my PBPA before I get a chance to die, but if the Town reaches a consensus to move on, I say go for it. I don't think Rage 2.0 has done much to offend scum, that is, he's probably only offended alvinz.

Speaking of alvinz, I'd like to hear from him before forbiddanlight is lynched.

And obviously Rage is haunting me

I thought I told Rage v. 1.0 to stop doing that.. and Rage v. 2.0 is way more suspicious of Alvinz.

[Dean Harper]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

forbiddanlight - (5) Goatrevolt, alvinz95, Megatheory, veerus, sthar8

alvinz95 - (2) StrangerCoug, forbiddanlight

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch a player - YOU ARE IN L-1.

[Goatrevolt]

First of all, why is Veerus defending my attack on Sthar prior to Sthar even defending it himself? I attack Sthar and Veerus comes to his defense? That serves to reinforce my opinion that they are scum together, but that can be dealt with later after we see Sthar's alignment.

I don't like this paragraph one bit. First of all, I'll start with this part:

At this point, though, a good number of the theories being discussed assume you to be scum, and we can't act on any of them until after you're dead.

Alvinz is the only person who has really pushed any theories about who is scum with Forbiddan. I mentioned possibilities, and BaB mentioned something about me fitting, but neither of us really pushed those at all. In other words, the only person pushing theories whatsoever about who is scum with Forbiddan is Alvinz.

This is a stretch. Everyone who's voting for FL obviously has reason to think she's scum. However, since this is the game of imperfect information, theories that hinge on her alignment may or not be correct. Just because not everyone has voiced their assumptions doesn't mean that no one else is thinking of them.

It's not a stretch at all. Why is Sthar using theories of someone he finds scummy as additional reasoning to justify a lynch of a player? When I see someone add justification to a case that simply isn't meaningful, doesn't indicate that a player is scum, or doesn't fit with their current or previous stances then it sets off huge alarm bells. This justification by Sthar8 doesn't fit with his stance that Alvinz is scum, and furthermore who is scum with forbiddan is completely meaningless towards determining whether or not forbiddan actually is scum.

So at this point I find Sthar8 to be the scummiest. BaB I still also think is scum, and my best guess at a 3rd suspect would be Veerus. I liked Rage's analysis on Cerebus/Veerus in 806. Forbiddan I'm not sure on, but I think if Sthar/Veerus end up being scum it would mostly clear her and at the moment I find it more likely that they are.

How did I get thrown into this mix? This is the first time I've seen you mention me and you don't even bother to back it up.

Do I need to back up my suspicions on my 3rd suspect? I don't see a pressing need to go through and layout exactly why I find you scummy and have a big back and forth considering you are my 3rd suspect, and I'm not interested in pushing you or lynching you today. It would serve as a huge distraction. Needless to say, I'll lay out my reasons for finding you suspicious around the same time I actually am pushing you as a suspect.

This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks attacking FL, giving well-presented justifications and examples of her scumminess and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that she's not even a top 3 suspect? This looks like an opportunistic attempt to save your partner in a quick bandwagon right before the deadline now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people.

FOS: Goatrevolt

You couldn't be more wrong here.

1. There is 9 days until deadline. It certainly isn't right before a deadline.
2. If I were scum and wanted to save my scum buddy forbiddanlight with a quick bandwagon right before the deadline, I would have picked a target that it could have happened on, like Alvinz or StrangerCoug. Instead, I'm pushing a target who has remained almost completely unsuspected the entire game. This is a completely offbase accusation.
3. "Now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people" Show me the suspicion cast on Sthar8. Then I will yield this point.
4. Changing my mind isn't scummy as you seem to want to portray it as. I see weak attacks on Forbiddan, and scummy justification for lynching her. I change my opinion on her based on that and instead attack those pushing weak attacks.

I think it's extremely telling that Veerus is using the "chainsaw defense" to defend Sthar8. As soon as I attack Sthar8, he steps up and defends Sthar and then attacks me right back. Classic scum buddy defense right there, especially since his reasons for attacking me are completely off base. I just put my balls on the line for forbiddanlight, and if she's scum, then I'm going to have a hard time defending myself. Does that makes sense from the perspective of us being scum buddies together? Even if we were scum buddies and I was ballsy enough to stand up and defend her at L-2 with people not voting her stating their intent to do so (basically, she was going to be lynched) then why would I attack literally one of the most unsuspected players in the game?

Finally, I'll leave you with this bit addressed to Veerus:

This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks defending Goatrevolt, giving well-presented justifications and examples of why players' baseless attacks on him aren't meaningful and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that he's a suspect? This looks like an opportunistic attempt to save your partner by using the chainsaw defense right before the deadline now that there has been some suspicion cast on him.

Now that I've addressed that, reading through the rest of what's been posted...

[Goatrevolt]

Quick comments: I believe that GR has used all his votes as ways to get that person closer to a lynch, rather than scum-hunting.

Really? Everytime you vote someone, you move them closer to a lynch, and when I find someone I think is scum (scumhunting) then I wish them to be lynched. If you can explain how you scum hunt without voting, and how you vote someone without moving them closer to a lynch then I'm all ears.

Some votes don't really progress a lynch as much as others. For instance, if I voted for veerus right now, he probably wouldn't be any closer to a lynch. Sure he's

technically

one vote closer to a lynch, noone else would be likely vote for him let alone four more people. In that case, my vote really isn't progressing his lynch.
However, my vote would be scum-hunting in the way that I would see his reaction, and everyone else's reaction.
AND, I could have a case on veerus, so I would be scum-hunting by voting, but this day, there's no way anyone but FL is going to get lynched.
Therefore, this vote on veerus would not really be progressing his lynch.
Understand what I'm saying?

I certainly do. I was the first vote on Rage. I was the first vote on Alvinz. I was the first vote on Skillit. I was the first vote on Sthar8. Do you see where I'm going with this? None of those votes were progressing a lynch by any stretch of the imagination based on your definition. In fact, you've defined them as scum hunting. I rest my case.

Most of your votes have just felt that you have been voting just to get a person closer to a lynch. It seems like most of your votes aspire to gather more votes on the person, jumping from wagon to wagon to see who you can get lynched. I'm exaggerating this to make you understand what I'm saying here.
You're not bringing up many new suspects, and you just seem to go with whichever person you can get lynched easiest. That's what I'm attacking you for, but remember...

I have brought up more new suspects than any other player in this game. Give me a break. See above where I reference Rage/Alvinz/Skillit/Sthar8... I have currently cast 2 votes out of 6 this game which were not original votes. In other words, 2/3's of my votes this game started bandwagons or reflected completely original suspicions that other players followed. This is an extraordinarily weak attack. You're attacking me for something that

1. Is untrue
2. I'm the person who has exhibited the least signs of doing that thus far.

I have mentioned numerous times that the bulk of my case is based on your connections to FL. It's why I'm not voting you or anything. I need to be sure of FL's alignment before I see whether my case on you is much worse or much better.

Would you consider that justification for lynching forbiddan?

I just want to say that I think the attacks on me are extremely scum driven. I've been attacked based on

1. Gut feelings
2. That my votes are just trying to progress a lynch rather than scum hunt, when my votes fit the precise definition of scum hunting provided.
3. Because I changed targets 9 days from a deadline, obviously tying myself to another player who is probably going to get lynched anyway.

[Goatrevolt]

Also, can we please not hammer forbiddan light right now.

1. Sthar hasn't responded to my case
2. There is plenty of information to be discussed.
3. I think there are better lynches out there than forbiddan, and I want to hear other players weigh in on my case.
4. Alvinz's response to Rage's post.

People are too quick to toss aside my case on Sthar8 as "Goat defending his scum buddy forbiddan" without considering whether or not I have a valid case on Sthar8 or whether or not it's even worthwhile for me to defend Forbiddan as a scum buddy when she's probably going to get lynched anyway. If I was forbiddan's scum buddy and was so gungho on keeping her from being lynched, I wouldn't have posted my huge case on her earlier in the day, and then later backed off her case with a deadline looming and her lynch almost a done deal.

I think Sthar8 is scum, and honestly, I'd be fine with lynching BaB as well, since his case on me is really poor and coincided very will with the lingering gut suspicion on me at the time. Also, his posts all read of him wanting to lynch Forbiddanlight for the purpose of figuring out whether or not his tie between the two of us is meaningful. Horrible justification. It doesn't show why forbiddan is scum, just the implications IF she is.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I have mentioned numerous times that the bulk of my case is based on your connections to FL. It's why I'm not voting you or anything. I need to be sure of FL's alignment before I see whether my case on you is much worse or much better.

Would you consider that justification for lynching forbiddan?

no. FL's own behavior is justification.

I just want to say that I think the attacks on me are extremely scum driven. I've been attacked based on

1. Gut feelings
2. That my votes are just trying to progress a lynch rather than scum hunt, when my votes fit the precise definition of scum hunting provided.
3. Because I changed targets 9 days from a deadline, obviously tying myself to another player who is probably going to get lynched anyway.

Please explain how 1 and 2 are scum driven.
I have not attacked you for 3. In fact, your attack on veerus is probably one of the first times I feel like you've really been scum-hunting rather than trying to rack up votes for someone.
It would definitely make me feel better about your alignment, if only it hadn't had come

after

I already mentioned that you needed to scum-hunt for scum not for lynch-ables.
Even so, I'm liking the attack on veerus. (not saying I'm agreeing with it or disagreeing*, but I like it).

*I'll say which one as soon as someone asks.

[Goatrevolt]

Please explain how 1 and 2 are scum driven.

1. Gut feelings. There is no real reason behind a gut feeling, and that player provides no actual reasoning for thinking that the other player is scum. However, it does throw suspicion on that player. Plenty of players have went back and reviewed my play simply because others have had gut feelings on me. It tosses suspicion on, but doesn't actually provide anything to suggest why I would be scum.

2. I find this scummy because it couldn't be more off base. Normally, attacking someone for having poor votes is perfectly legitimate, and is not a scummy attack. However, you basically gave an explanation of what you considered scum hunting and what you considered to be just furthering a lynch, and yet failed to recognize that almost every single one of my votes this game has fallen under your "scum hunting" category, and that I have done more of that scum hunting than any other player in this game. That's why I find this point extremely weak, and since you completely ignored my response and yet still push this point in the face of contrary evidence, I find it scummy to be pushed on this front.

In fact, your attack on veerus is probably one of the first times I feel like you've really been scum-hunting rather than trying to rack up votes for someone.

Did you read my response? Your definition of trying to rack up votes on someone involved voting people who others were already voting for to push a lynch. Your definition of scum hunting was to push relatively unsuspected targets to generate a response out of them.

I've shown you how my vote on Rage, Alvinz, Skillit, and Sthar8 are ALL classified as scumhunting based on your own definition, and you have ignored that. Instead, you continue to push the idea that my votes are merely trying to get people lynched rather than scum hunt. You ignore the obvious evidence I keep presenting to you. Based on your definition of scumhunting, I have done the most scumhunting of any player in this game. You couldn't be more off base.

[Goatrevolt]

Also, let it be known that I do want to get Sthar8 lynched. In fact, I'm voting him because I want to get him lynched. That's what you do to people you think are scum. Scum hunting and wanting to get players lynched go hand in hand, because scum hunting, which I'll argue I've done a lot of this game, involves trying to find scum, and then voting them involves trying to get those players lynched. Please explain how this is anti-town.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I've shown you how my vote on Rage, Alvinz, Skillit, and Sthar8 are ALL classified as scumhunting based on your own definition, and you have ignored that. Instead, you continue to push the idea that my votes are merely trying to get people lynched rather than scum hunt. You ignore the obvious evidence I keep presenting to you. Based on your definition of scumhunting, I have done the most scumhunting of any player in this game. You couldn't be more off base.

oh, okay goat. I'm wrong, you're not scum.
You can stop sweating now, I'm not attacking you...

This what you want, right?

I know this isn't a proper response. I'll get that later. Still, the point I'm making in this post is valid

The above three sentences were edited to proper size by mod.

[Goatrevolt]

I've shown you how my vote on Rage, Alvinz, Skillit, and Sthar8 are ALL classified as scumhunting based on your own definition, and you have ignored that. Instead, you continue to push the idea that my votes are merely trying to get people lynched rather than scum hunt. You ignore the obvious evidence I keep presenting to you. Based on your definition of scumhunting, I have done the most scumhunting of any player in this game. You couldn't be more off base.

oh, okay goat. I'm wrong, you're not scum.
You can stop sweating now, I'm not attacking you...

This what you want, right?

What are you talking about? You're attacking me, I'm defending myself, and then you're ignoring those defenses and continuing to attack me on points I've defended myself on. This has absolutely nothing to do with me wanting you to stop attacking me or not, and again you continue to dodge the issue.

I don't care if you continue to attack me or not. I will continue to find your attacks scummy though, considering you STILL haven't addressed my defense yet. Stop stalling and focusing on irrelevant issues, and do so.

[Dean Harper]

Please do not use tiny text or anything of that nature. It is clearly stated in the rules. Next person to do so will be qualified for a modkill

[BridgesAndBaloons]

What are you talking about? You're attacking me, I'm defending myself, and then you're ignoring those defenses and continuing to attack me on points I've defended myself on. This has absolutely nothing to do with me wanting you to stop attacking me or not, and again you continue to dodge the issue.

I don't care if you continue to attack me or not. I will continue to find your attacks scummy though, considering you STILL haven't addressed my defense yet. Stop stalling and focusing on irrelevant issues, and do so.

My previous post was pointing out how amazingly upset you're getting. Right now, you think FL is town, right? I mean he's not even in your top three for scum. So why the hell are you worried about my attacks?
I mean, I have mentioned numerously that the bulk of my case is built on connections with FL. If you think FL is town, there's really no reason to defend yourself.
But you are defending yourself.

A theory: You know that FL is going to turn scum, so you're already going gung-ho on the defense in order to prevent you're own lynch tomorrow.

1)I've pointed out numerous times the the bulk of my case is based on connections to FL.
2a)I also understand that most of your votes were the first one, but still, they come at times that make them seem as if they're trying to gather a lynch -- not pro-town (thus scummy) with such weak votes. You've argued against this and provided your defense. I have nothing to say to them. I'm not ignoring. You've defended yourself. Do I

have

to attack your defense?
2b) You're recent votes have been better.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Please do not use tiny text or anything of that nature. It is clearly stated in the rules. Next person to do so will be qualified for a modkill

oopsie daisy. Feel free to get rid of the [ size] [ /size]

[veerus]

First of all, why is Veerus defending my attack on Sthar prior to Sthar even defending it himself? I attack Sthar and Veerus comes to his defense? That serves to reinforce my opinion that they are scum together, but that can be dealt with later after we see Sthar's alignment.

I must say, Goat, you're pretty good at putting words into people's mouths and railroading them for stuff they didn't say.

1.

I did not defend Shtar from your attack

.. I only attacked your faulty assumptions that just because no one is voicing their theories doesn't mean they don't have any.
2. You DID mention me as a suspect, so your post was an attack of sorts on me as well

This is a stretch. Everyone who's voting for FL obviously has reason to think she's scum. However, since this is the game of imperfect information, theories that hinge on her alignment may or not be correct. Just because not everyone has voiced their assumptions doesn't mean that no one else is thinking of them.

It's not a stretch at all. Why is Sthar using theories of someone he finds scummy as additional reasoning to justify a lynch of a player? When I see someone add justification to a case that simply isn't meaningful, doesn't indicate that a player is scum, or doesn't fit with their current or previous stances then it sets off huge alarm bells. This justification by Sthar8 doesn't fit with his stance that Alvinz is scum, and furthermore who is scum with forbiddan is completely meaningless towards determining whether or not forbiddan actually is scum.

Just to emphasize my point above that you're making baseless attacks,

my post did not defend Sthar

. If anything, it defended many of the other players (myself included) who have yet to present a theory on FL's scum partners. Your arguments assume that FL isn't scum when from the looks of it most of the town feels like she is. Theories on her being scum are a waste of time since we don't know if she is.. we just know that her

play

has been scummy.

This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks attacking FL, giving well-presented justifications and examples of her scumminess and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that she's not even a top 3 suspect? This looks like an opportunistic attempt to save your partner in a quick bandwagon right before the deadline now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people.

FOS: Goatrevolt

You couldn't be more wrong here.

1. There is 9 days until deadline. It certainly isn't right before a deadline.
2. If I were scum and wanted to save my scum buddy forbiddanlight with a quick bandwagon right before the deadline, I would have picked a target that it could have happened on, like Alvinz or StrangerCoug. Instead, I'm pushing a target who has remained almost completely unsuspected the entire game. This is a completely offbase accusation.
3. "Now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people" Show me the suspicion cast on Sthar8. Then I will yield this point.
4. Changing my mind isn't scummy as you seem to want to portray it as. I see weak attacks on Forbiddan, and scummy justification for lynching her. I change my opinion on her based on that and instead attack those pushing weak attacks.

1. This day has gone on for a month.. 9 days can be considered as right before the deadline... especially if you consider the posting frequency of some players.
2. This is WIFOM. You're gambling either way, and with alvinz and SC being in their own little world that no one seems to be paying attention to, a fresh suspect is not an offbase play.
3. see #2
4. Changing your mind isn't scummy. Changing your mind when you've been pushing FL for the better part of D2 *is* scummy. Changing your mind and downgrading your top suspect from the past 3 weeks to completely off the radar is VERY scummy.

I think it's extremely telling that Veerus is using the "chainsaw defense" to defend Sthar8. As soon as I attack Sthar8, he steps up and defends Sthar and then attacks me right back. Classic scum buddy defense right there, especially since his reasons for attacking me are completely off base. I just put my balls on the line for forbiddanlight, and if she's scum, then I'm going to have a hard time defending myself. Does that makes sense from the perspective of us being scum buddies together? Even if we were scum buddies and I was ballsy enough to stand up and defend her at L-2 with people not voting her stating their intent to do so (basically, she was going to be lynched) then why would I attack literally one of the most unsuspected players in the game?

I find it scummy how you put words in my mouth and misuse terms (presumably because "chainsaw" sounds intimidating) to create further confusion and strengthen your argument. Please show where in my post I defended Sthar. Use quotes... I'm guessing they'll probably say something along the lines of "I think you're wrong about Sthar because..." You won't find them because

I didn't defend Sthar

.

As for your argument about it making sense for you to defend your scumbuddy FL at L-2.. that's more WIFOM. I find it interesting how your post is full of it.

Finally, I'll leave you with this bit addressed to Veerus:

This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks defending Goatrevolt, giving well-presented justifications and examples of why players' baseless attacks on him aren't meaningful and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that he's a suspect? This looks like an opportunistic attempt to save your partner by using the chainsaw defense right before the deadline now that there has been some suspicion cast on him.

I did not spend the past 3 weeks defending you. I only made a couple of posts at one point where I said that you did not strike me as scum and I wasn't going to claim that you are based on meta alone (like FL did). Since you like to repeat the fact that my post defended Sthar, I'll repeat that

my post made NO mention of your attacks on Sthar whatsoever

.

[sthar8]

Here's my thoughts on Goat's original case against me. I'll read his more recent stuff right now, and respond as soon as I'm done.

At this point I'm back to where I was early in the day. I think Sthar8 is scum, and my guess at scum buddies would be BaB and Veerus.

You didn't, however, ever provide support for

why

you felt this way earlier in the day. I'd still welcome the chance to respond to whatever that was.

Alvinz is the only person who has really pushed any theories about who is scum with Forbiddan. I mentioned possibilities, and BaB mentioned something about me fitting, but neither of us really pushed those at all. In other words, the only person pushing theories whatsoever about who is scum with Forbiddan is Alvinz.

The issue is that Sthar suspects Alvinz, so why is he buying into Alvinz's theories and using them as a way to justify forbiddan's lynch? That doesn't make any sense. He wants forbiddan dead so we can act on the theories of someone he finds scummy? Bad justification.

I'm certain that if forbiddan is scum, then SC is most likely scum with her.

While Goat and FL have been connected to an extreme extent, that doesn't mean anything until FL is lynched.

IF alvinz95 is a cop (unknown) AND you're town (unknown), then surely the supposed cop's guilty readings on you are false (unconfirmed).

Maybe not as many as I thought, but definitely not just alvinz. Just because no one but alvinz is repeatedly beating us about the face with their speculation doesn't mean that no one else needs the info. And I'm on the record about alvinz, saying:

I don't want to commit to anything regarding him without the insight that the lynch will give us on his list of suspicions

He's suspicious, but FL's lynch will go a long way toward showing us how suspicious his behavior really is.

This I also do not like. Here Sthar8 assumes Forbiddan is scum, while the previous parts of that paragraph have justifications for why her lynch is good and necessary even if she's town. That doesn't fit. Why would Sthar have to justify how her lynch is beneficial in the case she's town when by this statement here he's completely convinced she's scum?

I don't see any place that I'm

not

assuming FL is scum. I provided several reasons why her lynch would help us, then I reaffirmed that the most important reason is that I believe she is scum. I don't see anything wrong with this, nor do I think her lynch would be beneficial if she's town. It's just that, short of a cop claiming with an innocent, there's not much that will outweigh the pile of scumtells against her. Where do I justify lynching FL-townie?

I'm also not certain that FL is scum. I'm about 85% sure, but it is still possible that I'm wrong. I think 85% is enough that she should swing, however.

Finally, even if I

had

condoned FL-town's lynch,

you

are not justified in attacking me on that basis:

The issue is that I think it may simply be better for us to lynch Forbiddan anyway because it would bring some closure to this case.

This is quite amusing considering that this clearly states the viewpoint that you ostensibly attacked Skillit on yesterday. Unless you think we should find you scummy for this, I think your credibility on the topic is compromised. In short, you're falsely accusing me of violating a double standard.

His end result - I'm not very scummy.

His paragraph - Three things he doesn't like about my play and the statement that he doesn't want to clear me.

The issue: This is the second time Sthar has gone about pointing out scummy actions and focusing on scum tells even when he finds someone town. This fits perfectly from a scum mindset. Sthar8 wants to get townies lynched, and by clearing players and pointing out town tells he prevents that from happening. However, him pointing out scum tells on someone he thinks is townie provides two benefits to scum. 1. It allows him to get on the case if need should arise. 2. It gives others reasons to push my case even if he doesn't choose to himself. In other words, if he legitimately thinks I am a townie, then why is he pointing out actions that could fuel a push in my direction? That doesn't fit a townie mindset. A townie doesn't want to get another townie lynched, and thus is not going to point out things that would further that agenda.

You think I'm scummy because my analysis of your play found you to be more pro-town than not, but didn't clear you? A townie shouldn't be clearing players in the absence of a proven cop investigation or irrefutable logical proof.

Ever

. Clearing someone based on behavioral tells is just begging for a loss. Can you show me where this evidence is that I should have cleared you on?

Also, I've already stated that I think it is anti-town to list the reasons that someone is protown, as you are basically telling scum who they should kill, and it's possible to accidentally out power roles this way. It is always protown to point out scummy behavior, and it is anti-town to highlight townie behavior unless it is necessary to prevent the lynch of someone you think to be townie.

As for your "scum advantages,"
1. I sure would hop on your wagon if you started doing scummy things. Doing so would be admitting that I was wrong, but that's not a scumtell so far as I know.
2. If you read my post, I point out everything that I

could

see as suspicious, then

refute every point

. How is it helpful to scum to have points against you that have already been dismissed as irrelevant?

Finally, I don't like how Sthar is suspicious of almost everyone. He's suspicious of Forbiddan, but also Alvinz, and also StrangerCoug. Likewise he's suspicious of Cerebus, and has shown some weak suspicions of BaB. While he thinks I'm town he's shown that he's suspicious of me as well. He's suspicious of skillit. Many of those players do not fit as scum very well with each other, but Sthar has managed suspicion on both of them. The issue is that by maintaining suspicion on so many players he leaves himself open to push whomever he wishes. He can pick to side with StrangerCoug against Alvinz if he wishes, or he can pick to side with Alvinz against SC.

What? I'm not sure where you're getting this, as I've been listing my suspicions clearly every few posts to avoid any misunderstanding of my stances. Granted, I haven't done so for about 10 pages, but I didn't think I had been unclear in expressing myself since then.

I'm suspicious of FL, alvinz, and Skillit, in that order. That is the full and complete extent of my suspicions. I

was

very lightly suspicious of BaB, based on GW's actions, but BaB hasn't done anything that aligns with what I was thinking there. I am concerned about cerberus, and I hope his replacement can up his activity level so that I can get rid of the nagging feeling that cerb was trying to avoid attention, or give me some evidence that will expand it into more than a gut reaction.

I don't think I've expressed suspicion of SC since day1, and he hasn't done anything to make me rethink my evaluation there. I was willing to reexamine you when a number of others expressed that you were their suspect, but I concluded that there was very little merit to the case.

I have no idea why you think I'm particularly suspicious of everyone. No one is cleared yet, but I certainly have some suspects, as well as some players I'm not really worried about. I may not make townie-lists, but you haven't proven that I need to.

[sthar8]

That serves to reinforce my opinion that they are scum together, but that can be dealt with later after we see Sthar's alignment.

Weren't you just attacking me for this?

I see weak attacks on Forbiddan,

Want to back this assertion up with evidence, please? You didn't think the points against her were so weak a few pages ago. What changed?

I have brought up more new suspects than any other player in this game.

You've also attacked me for "being suspicious of too many people." It's protown when you do it but antitown when you (falsely) accuse me of doing it? Yet another double standard.

You're attacking me for something that

1. Is untrue
2. I'm the person who has exhibited the least signs of doing that thus far.

Taste of your own medicine?

3. "Now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people" Show me the suspicion cast on Sthar8. Then I will yield this point.

Straw man. If you were scum, you might have seen SC's abandonment of the FL wagon as a sign that town were open to other suspects. Giving us a new one would be a good way to decrease the chances that your partner is lynched. Veerus is attacking the motive behind your lack of conviction here, not suggesting that you are leeching off general suspicion of me.

To be clear, I don't think goat is scum. I attribute the unsupported and empty accusations against me to yet another instance of misunderstanding on his part, because it doesn't really make sense for scum to attack

me

when there are easier targets around, and not all of the easier targets can be scum with goat and FL. I find his dismissal of the

entire case

against FL based on a single comment of mine to be ridiculous, but I believe his motives are pro-town.

I am ready to end the day, but if it were my decision, I would try to give Rage some time to post his PBPA. I hope, however, that someone who is not yet voting for FL will monitor the situation and hammer before the deadline, regardless of whatever other empty threats she can conjure. A No Lynch at this point is very damaging to the town.

[forbiddanlight]

I am ready to end the day, but if it were my decision, I would try to give Rage some time to post his PBPA. I hope, however, that someone who is not yet voting for FL will monitor the situation and hammer before the deadline, regardless of whatever other empty threats she can conjure. A No Lynch at this point is very damaging to the town.

What if another case appears that actually lynches scum? And if it's a deadline lynch, I have less problems with that. I agree No Lynch is retarded. But I meant if someone hammers early before everything is done.

[alvinz95]

Goat, you're just too good at being mafia that I see right through it. I'm not going to bother reading walls of text. FL/SC/Goat any of the possibilities. If i'm wrong? Screw it.

[Rage]

Goat, you're just too good at being mafia that I see right through it. I'm not going to bother reading walls of text. FL/SC/Goat any of the possibilities. If i'm wrong? Screw it.

Should I really be posting a PBPA of you if you're going to add really scummy posts like this? I'm tempted to vote for you right now!

[Goatrevolt]

What are you talking about? You're attacking me, I'm defending myself, and then you're ignoring those defenses and continuing to attack me on points I've defended myself on. This has absolutely nothing to do with me wanting you to stop attacking me or not, and again you continue to dodge the issue.

I don't care if you continue to attack me or not. I will continue to find your attacks scummy though, considering you STILL haven't addressed my defense yet. Stop stalling and focusing on irrelevant issues, and do so.

My previous post was pointing out how amazingly upset you're getting. Right now, you think FL is town, right? I mean he's not even in your top three for scum. So why the hell are you worried about my attacks?
I mean, I have mentioned numerously that the bulk of my case is built on connections with FL. If you think FL is town, there's really no reason to defend yourself.
But you are defending yourself.

I'm not upset in the least bit. When players attack me, I defend myself. It's how I play the game.

A theory: You know that FL is going to turn scum, so you're already going gung-ho on the defense in order to prevent you're own lynch tomorrow.

Wrong. I was defending myself just as hard from your attacks prior to my change of mind on forbiddanlight. Try again.

1)I've pointed out numerous times the the bulk of my case is based on connections to FL.
2a)I also understand that most of your votes were the first one, but still, they come at times that make them seem as if they're trying to gather a lynch -- not pro-town (thus scummy) with such weak votes. You've argued against this and provided your defense. I have nothing to say to them. I'm not ignoring. You've defended yourself. Do I

have

to attack your defense?
2b) You're recent votes have been better.

If I'm the first vote on a target, how would I be able to gather a lynch on that player? That would mean my case would have to be good enough (AKA scum hunting) for 6 others to hop aboard. If all I'm doing is just looking for a lynch with the

initial

vote on a player, then what are the other 6 players doing then? Aren't they just looking for a lynch even worse than me since their votes agree with my vote and assessment of the player?

Also, I want to note that now you're trying to paint me as scum because I've defended against your attacks. If I didn't defend against your attacks, would I be scum for evading player's attacks on me? Trying to paint me as scum because I have addressed points that you brought against me is patently absurd.

Also, I now note that your attack on me has changed directions. Originally, my connections with forbiddanlight were just a small aspect of your case that you would bring up if forbiddan was scum. Now they are the bulk of your case. Why specifically do you think forbiddan is scum? I've heard you talk more about how I'm scum if she is scum than I've heard your reasons for finding her such.

FoS BridgesandBalloons

Reading through the rest now...

[Goatrevolt]

I must say, Goat, you're pretty good at putting words into people's mouths and railroading them for stuff they didn't say.

1.

I did not defend Shtar from your attack

.. I only attacked your faulty assumptions that just because no one is voicing their theories doesn't mean they don't have any.
2. You DID mention me as a suspect, so your post was an attack of sorts on me as well

1. You attacked one of my points against Sthar8. Perhaps chainsaw defense was the wrong term (I thought that was the terminology for an attack on a player to indirectly defend another player that first player is attacking). If you're attacking the points I make against another player, you're in essence defending that player. It's one and the same.
2. I mentioned you as a suspect, but far down the line and didn't elaborate on it at all. I didn't actually attack you with any reasoning, and the part you "defended against" was entirely directed at sthar8.

Just to emphasize my point above that you're making baseless attacks,

my post did not defend Sthar

. If anything, it defended many of the other players (myself included) who have yet to present a theory on FL's scum partners. Your arguments assume that FL isn't scum when from the looks of it most of the town feels like she is. Theories on her being scum are a waste of time since we don't know if she is.. we just know that her

play

has been scummy.

Your post attacked one of the points I made against sthar8, thus defending him. It's one and the same. If you think the points I'm using to attack a player are bad, then you are defending that player from those points.

Your reasoning here is that sthar8 was a mind reader? That sthar8 knew others had theories about who was scum with forbiddan, but nobody voiced them yet? He's just that good at reading people's minds? I'm going to continue to work off of

what's in the thread

when I determine the validity of a statement, not

what might be later in the thread depending on if other players have something or not

.

My arguments do not assume FL is town. Instead, they look at the nature of the way players attacked her, and suggest that those attacks are not townie in nature.

1. This day has gone on for a month.. 9 days can be considered as right before the deadline... especially if you consider the posting frequency of some players.

9 days is roughly 1/3 of a month. Plenty of time. Also, forbiddan is still hanging around at L-1, and can be lynched if deadline nears, so me presenting other suspects is not an issue. Would you prefer I sat on my hands when i see something I don't like?

2. This is WIFOM. You're gambling either way, and with alvinz and SC being in their own little world that no one seems to be paying attention to, a fresh suspect is not an offbase play.

Again, this doesn't address the issue. You think I'm trying to save forbiddanlight with "a quick bandwagon right before deadline." The issue is that my target, sthar8 doesn't fit with your assessment, because he was relatively unsuspected. If i was looking for an "anyone but FL wagon that might result in a lynch before deadline" I would not have chosen Sthar8. You can try to dismiss it as WIFOM, but it certainly is not, because pushing sthar8 before deadline is a tough lynch to pull off.

3. see #2

You can't paint this off as WIFOM. You mentioned specifically that since there is suspicion on other players I saw an opportunity to hop off of forbiddan light and onto them. The problem with your accusation here is that there was no suspicion on sthar8, which 100% debunks your attack. You can't just ignore that.

4. Changing your mind isn't scummy. Changing your mind when you've been pushing FL for the better part of D2 *is* scummy. Changing your mind and downgrading your top suspect from the past 3 weeks to completely off the radar is VERY scummy.

No, it's still not scummy. It's called reacting to new information. You keep calling it very scummy, but you're not saying why it's scummy. Forbiddan was my top suspect, but when I see new information in the thread to change my opinion I will go with it. That's how townies are supposed to play, go with whoever they find scum and constantly be on the lookout for scum. Picking on player and staying on that player until they die, even if you see evidence to suggest that they might not be scum is what's scummy.

I find it scummy how you put words in my mouth and misuse terms (presumably because "chainsaw" sounds intimidating) to create further confusion and strengthen your argument. Please show where in my post I defended Sthar. Use quotes... I'm guessing they'll probably say something along the lines of "I think you're wrong about Sthar because..." You won't find them because

I didn't defend Sthar

.

I apologize for chainsaw defense, I thought that was the correct term.

"I think you're wrong about sthar8 because X doesn't suggest he's scum." That is the nature of your post. That is called a defense. You are taking my attacks and defending against them by showing how you don't think they suggest he's scum.

As for your argument about it making sense for you to defend your scumbuddy FL at L-2.. that's more WIFOM. I find it interesting how your post is full of it.

It's not WIFOM. WIFOM assumes a scenario in which the likelihood that a player will do A or B is exactly the same and you cannot logically infer whatsoever which one they are more likely to do. My argument is that the likelihood that I would step forward and defend a scum buddy

who is probably going to get lynched anyway

while they are at L-2, after I attacked them early in the day, and which serves to put a huge spotlight on myself (as is shown right now) is not something I'm likely to do as scum. It's not WIFOM, it's behavioral analysis. It's how you catch scum and find townies.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm really frustrated. I had much of this post typed up and went to go to the bathroom and get a drink and windows update automatically restarted my computer. It's really annoying to have to retype a bunch of it over again, but anyway, my response to Sthar8.

You didn't, however, ever provide support for

why

you felt this way earlier in the day. I'd still welcome the chance to respond to whatever that was.

That mostly stemmed from your analysis of every player for the reasons I brought up against it before. There was one additional reason, but I'd have to go back and figure out what it was because I can't recall off the top of my head. Needless to say, it doesn't mean anything on my suspicion towards you since I don't have it handy.

Maybe not as many as I thought, but definitely not just alvinz. Just because no one but alvinz is repeatedly beating us about the face with their speculation doesn't mean that no one else needs the info. And I'm on the record about alvinz, saying:

I don't want to commit to anything regarding him without the insight that the lynch will give us on his list of suspicions

He's suspicious, but FL's lynch will go a long way toward showing us how suspicious his behavior really is.

I mentioned BaB's as being not very meaningful because he wasn't pursuing it. At the moment, it's now the meat of his case against me, which does lend validity to your stance, although after the fact. I don't recall that post by megatheory, but it's valid in your defense. Veerus's post is completely irrelevant.

What theories do you personally buy in to? If theories about who is scum with FL is part of the reason for your vote, then I'm curious as to which ones you find especially meaningful.

I don't see any place that I'm

not

assuming FL is scum. I provided several reasons why her lynch would help us, then I reaffirmed that the most important reason is that I believe she is scum. I don't see anything wrong with this, nor do I think her lynch would be beneficial if she's town. It's just that, short of a cop claiming with an innocent, there's not much that will outweigh the pile of scumtells against her. Where do I justify lynching FL-townie?

I'm also not certain that FL is scum. I'm about 85% sure, but it is still possible that I'm wrong. I think 85% is enough that she should swing, however.

Finally, even if I

had

condoned FL-town's lynch,

you

are not justified in attacking me on that basis:

The issue is that I think it may simply be better for us to lynch Forbiddan anyway because it would bring some closure to this case.

This is quite amusing considering that this clearly states the viewpoint that you ostensibly attacked Skillit on yesterday. Unless you think we should find you scummy for this, I think your credibility on the topic is compromised. In short, you're falsely accusing me of violating a double standard.

I'll drop this. You're absolutely correct that I have no right to accuse you of that at all.

You think I'm scummy because my analysis of your play found you to be more pro-town than not, but didn't clear you? A townie shouldn't be clearing players in the absence of a proven cop investigation or irrefutable logical proof.

Ever

. Clearing someone based on behavioral tells is just begging for a loss. Can you show me where this evidence is that I should have cleared you on?

Obviously, you are correct in that someone should not be cleared barring certain circumstances, but why mention that? You specifically saying "but I don't want to clear him" gives off the impression that you are not solid in your opinion. Whether or not it's true that you don't wish for me to be 100% cleared (which is true, naturally), mentioning that you don't want to clear me creates the idea that your read isn't strong. By saying this along with pointing out scum tells,

even if your final analysis is that I'm town

, you still generate suspicion and leave the door open for others to push those reasons against me. It's like saying "I think he's town, but I don't want to clear him, and here are some reasons you might find to think he's scum. Have at it".

Also, I've already stated that I think it is anti-town to list the reasons that someone is protown, as you are basically telling scum who they should kill, and it's possible to accidentally out power roles this way. It is always protown to point out scummy behavior, and it is anti-town to highlight townie behavior unless it is necessary to prevent the lynch of someone you think to be townie.

Agreed fully. I don't think you needed to list reasons why you found me pro-town because I agree with this stance. I think it's also anti-town to list reasons you find a pro-town player's actions scummy though.

As for your "scum advantages,"
1. I sure would hop on your wagon if you started doing scummy things. Doing so would be admitting that I was wrong, but that's not a scumtell so far as I know.

No, I don't find that a scum tell. One of veerus' points against me is similar to this (scummy to change targets), and I disagree that it's a scum tell in the general sense.

My point is that if you were to hop on my wagon at a later point, even if it were for legitimate points, it doesn't reflect as poorly on you if your town read of me from earlier contained some points which allowed you to easily transition.

2. If you read my post, I point out everything that I

could

see as suspicious, then

refute every point

. How is it helpful to scum to have points against you that have already been dismissed as irrelevant?

For the record, here is your post:

Sorry guys, but I'm just not seeing goat-scum right now. My earlier expressed opinions of his day 1 play stand. I don't like his reliance on meta, and the end of yesterday's alvinz wagon makes my skin crawl, but he seems to genuinely want to gain information for the town. I noticed that goat doesn't respond to posts that answer him, presumably unless he disagrees, but if that assumption is correct there is nothing anti-town about this behavior. The shifts in opinion seem honest to me, and they coincide with things like rereads that explain the sudden changes satisfactorily. I'm not going to clear him, but I just don't see him being very scummy.

Show me where you refute.

I'm suspicious of FL, alvinz, and Skillit, in that order. That is the full and complete extent of my suspicions. I

was

very lightly suspicious of BaB, based on GW's actions, but BaB hasn't done anything that aligns with what I was thinking there. I am concerned about cerberus, and I hope his replacement can up his activity level so that I can get rid of the nagging feeling that cerb was trying to avoid attention, or give me some evidence that will expand it into more than a gut reaction.

I don't think I've expressed suspicion of SC since day1, and he hasn't done anything to make me rethink my evaluation there. I was willing to reexamine you when a number of others expressed that you were their suspect, but I concluded that there was very little merit to the case.

I have no idea why you think I'm particularly suspicious of everyone. No one is cleared yet, but I certainly have some suspects, as well as some players I'm not really worried about. I may not make townie-lists, but you haven't proven that I need to.

I inferred you were suspicious of SC based on your statement about people having theories of who was scum with FL. I assumed you bought into at least one of those theories, otherwise why use it as logic for voting FL? Other than BAB, those theories all involved SC, and since you mentioned that you found me town, I assumed you didn't buy into BaB's.

I'll clarify why I found this scummy, since I don't think I explained it very well. My issue was that you had so many suspects, but I didn't see any real town reads out of you and the one explicitly mentioned (myself) could easily be used as a basepoint for others to push a case on me, even if you yourself were not on it. My read is that you're playing the field, pushing as many players as possible, and leaving things open-ended to allow you to go wherever best suits you as scum.

------

On to your second post.

-----

Weren't you just attacking me for this?

No. I don't have an issue with theories of who is scum with X. I don't think those theories should be pressed until after X's alignment is known, though. My point wasn't that you acknowledged those theories, but that it appeared you were buying into them as a reason for your vote on FL, without any real indication of whose theories you supported or why this was meaningful whatsoever. Since the only real theory I saw at the time was Alvinz's, and since you expressed suspicion of Alvinz, I found it scummy.

Want to back this assertion up with evidence, please? You didn't think the points against her were so weak a few pages ago. What changed?

That was the basis of my case on you, was that I didn't like your attack on FL.

That isn't the only reason that I no longer think FL is town. Perhaps she's exceptionally skilled at WIFOM and I'm buying into it but I feel her play has been pro-town as of late. Her suggestion that we lynch her so the town can move on to discussing other targets, thus expressing worry about the town losing track of scum by focusing solely on one target, speaks to me of a pro-town mindset. Her dropping of suspicion on me after I stopped attacking her doesn't come as a surprise to me, as I considered her attack on me to be 100% OMGUS anyway.

At this point, I really get the feeling that forbiddan is a mislynch and thus I am switching targets. I think the people trying to hammer home the idea that I'm doing this because I'm a scum buddy to forbiddan and am just trying a last ditch effort to prevent her lynch are completely wrong, and I actually find that scummy. I find that a stretch to explain how both forbiddan and I are scum together and a means to keep pressure on forbiddan, while also attacking the one person defending her. I need to figure out what that term is called, since apparently it's not chainsaw defense. Anyway, the point is, I defend FL, and people attack me, which makes me look bad, thus making my defense of FL look bad, thus making her an even more appealing target for a lynch.

You've also attacked me for "being suspicious of too many people." It's protown when you do it but antitown when you (falsely) accuse me of doing it? Yet another double standard.

Actually, that's not quite true. I'm no longer suspicious of Alvinz or Skillit. The difference here is that I've

brought up

a lot of suspects over the course of the thread, many of whom I don't suspect anymore, whereas my interpretation is that you

currently have

that many suspects, which i found scummy for the reasons I earlier addressed.

Straw man. If you were scum, you might have seen SC's abandonment of the FL wagon as a sign that town were open to other suspects. Giving us a new one would be a good way to decrease the chances that your partner is lynched. Veerus is attacking the motive behind your lack of conviction here, not suggesting that you are leeching off general suspicion of me.

I understand the idea behind this. The issue, however, is that Veerus has explained my motive behind leaving forbiddanlight as basically a "last ditch effort to save a scum buddy once suspicion has been flying around on other suspects." The issue is that if I were scum looking to do this, I would have picked a target that was easier to accomplish it with. He dismisses it as WIFOM, but I disagree with that assessment. The fact that none of the suspicion being thrown around was on you is meaningful, and not to be dismissed. You have shown that you are a strong player, and unsuspected. If I were looking for an "any lynch but FL last second save" you would be about the last choice for who I would pick. Skillit for instance, is a target with some suspicion on him who I have shown signs of being suspicious of earlier in the game. That would have been a more optimal choice, etc.

-----

I think sthar8 defended himself well, and he definitely caught me in a web of hypocrisy on that one point, which serves to make my points against him seem weak and contrived. I still think he's scum, however, based on my read that he's willing to keep the door open for pushes on a wide range of suspects and for the reasons related to his statements that he found me pro-town.

I'm interested in seeing how other players feel about my case on Sthar. FL and Megatheory have both chimed in basically with a "I want to see where this goes" type thing, but now that he's posted his defense I'm interested to see others reactions.

At this point, I am also willing to lynch BaB, basically for the following:

1. The reasons I laid out earlier today about Ghostwriter and how I found his posts scummy

2. His attack on me. Originally it was because he found my votes weak, and the tie between me and FL was an afterthought. I defended myself against those points and he has not acknowledged those defenses or conceded any of those points, but yet he subtly changes his case such that my tie with FL is now the meat of his case and those points are just side points. In other words, the entire focus of his case on me has changed, suggesting his realization that he was wrong about my other points, but yet he has not acknowledged such and has instead taken to attacking me basically because I'm defending myself from his attacks while I'm not a lynch target. Under that same logic, sthar8 should not have defended himself from my attacks, but yet BaB has made no attempt to prevent Sthar8 from doing so. And why should he? Defending oneself from attacks is perfectly natural as town or scum. In other words, his assertion is ridiculous.

3. His willingness to lynch FL rings insincere. He's more focused on me being scum if FL is scum than he is of FL being scum in the first place. I don't recall him expressly stating the reasons for why he thinks FL is scum outside of a blanket "I agree with the evidence provided" statement, so if he could point that out it would be appreciated.

Finally, to end this monster of a post:

Goat, you're just too good at being mafia that I see right through it. I'm not going to bother reading walls of text. FL/SC/Goat any of the possibilities. If i'm wrong? Screw it.

[StrangerCoug]

Goat, you're just too good at being mafia that I see right through it. I'm not going to bother reading walls of text. FL/SC/Goat any of the possibilities. If i'm wrong? Screw it.

What is this, the Too Mafioso argument?