Mini Normal 2191 | Endgame

[maxwell]

Hey all. Have read nothing of the game, should only take me a day or so to catch up though.

[maxwell]

Why me, exactly?

[maxwell]

Your role was very inactive yesterday. I had a theory and wanted to see if my theory was likely.

...and what was this theory?

[maxwell]

...No, absolutely not. Checking a slot that is an assumed counter claim is a waste of time, 100%. Especially given neapolitan powers, the likely result is that ghe confirms that the claimed power role is not a VT, which tells you xactly nothing about their alignment. I have a feeling I'm going to be annoyed at his theory for checking me regardless, but that's poor reasoning for a vote.

(I've skimmed enough to know what the claims are, but am reading from the start right now, still in the early game)

[maxwell]

I'm honestly kicking myself in hindsight for not checking umlaut because it prolly would have been a guilty.

Oh well. Clidd is officially a mason. With himself for now but hey. Welcome to stone cutting class.

Why did you check clidd?

[maxwell]

I feel like it's fairly obvious why I checked Clidd. He's essentially my own play style but not in my slot... I know exactly how dangerous it is to town read that effort, and that the play style snows towns hard. SO if I lived, getting to KNOW he is town and can know all work we do together is genuine? That's rad.

Well, I'm getting to your replace in and you had him as a townread, curious as to why that changed?

[maxwell]

He is a townread.

I don't see cop as always something you hero play with trying to get a guilty. I see it as a way to remove paranoia from the board about players you think could be capable of getting past you extremely well.

But fuzzy is something like 99% certainty to be scum from your POV, yes? A cop guilty on his partner would put the game in a state of virtual autowin. Why on earth would you not check someone you believe likely to be teamed with him?

[maxwell]

All right, I've read through all of day 1, haven't taken any sort of notes this time but have reads I feel decently about, but I'm going to wait on fuzzy outing his result on me. Think he's trueclaiming although it says nothing about his alignment, but don't want to influence anything by posting reads prematurely.

[maxwell]

While we wait, btw:

VOTE: Maxwell

Should pretty much always be resolving in investigative claims today, not outside. But if you're just doing this to indicate you suspect me, well, fine. We'll handle that later.

I really look forward to the "theory" that justifies checking Lenora/Maxwell slot instead of Cabd, because I feel that "theory" was thrown as a buzzword.

The only reason I think I would be fine with would be if he found crumbing from Lenora and wanted to check in case she was "vanilla" and tried to claim her crumb, but the reason he gave Maxwell was "she was very inactive" and I think that won't have anything to do with crumbs or anything that makes actual sense for his role usage, lol.

I have a depressing hunch it'll be something that makes sense

to him

but is a rather poor use of the role nonetheless. Neapolitan here

should

be going for a clear since they can't get a hard guilty.

[maxwell]

Yes, I confirm fuzzy's result is correct, I'm a doctor. Did a very very light skim after my replace in and protected clidd last night. Little bit annoyed that I was the check for that reason, but what's done is done and I'm not terribly useful otherwise anyway. Typical expectation for a 9p setup is 2 town power roles, I don't really believe for a second both investigative claims are town. More in a moment.

[maxwell]

Strongly inclined to think fuzzy's the legitimate claim, his play as I'm seeing it makes sense for him, some of it might not make sense to others but I don't see him claiming the way he did as scum and his attempts to analyze peopl felt believable, by comparison his recent scumgame had not much depth of thought overall. By contrast see a lot of scum motivation Cabd's claim and thought he + koba were quite scummy overall.

If Cabd is scum I think the most likely partner is Maduisha, were a few things when I was reading I didn't like but this is sort of a gut feeling. Could also see nepenthe as scum though as I feel he's been super underwhelming, but had a slight sense that may have been strong belief in his clidd push even if I think it's really wrong.

If I'm wrong and fuzzy is scum (been fooled by bad PR claims before), then nepenthe is pretty much the only person I see as a partner.

Think clidd and Umlaut are pretty likely town no matter what.

[maxwell]

Fuzzy, there is quite literally no way town would have a full cop and a neapolitan in a 9p setup to begin with, and if you were both town it's highly implausible they wouldn't try to kill or roleblock either of you, because two investigations potentially locks the game for town. Only reason for you both being alive is because one of you is fake and was hoping to get the town one eliminated today.

Also, if I'm going to get outed as a PR by your report, I have no choice

but

to claim, I can't say nothing.

[maxwell]

As for you, Max, I had a very subjective reason to think that your entry was scummy, based on meta.

Curious as to what you mean by this? My scumgame's pretty crap but I don't think I've played like this in the scum replace-ins I've had.

Admit my reads aren't really fleshed out, at this point I'm just firing off gutreads based on my readthrough, the reasoning will come later. Not really in a rush to dump content into the thread.

[maxwell]

You will laugh if I show you the reason I based my scummy impression.

Still want to see?

Hah, not that important right now, I suppose.

Anyways, I do need to see your reasoning. It's important to me.

Completely understand, will get to it when I have time.

[maxwell]

So, to start let me try to explain why I think fuzzy's town. I hate to give vague reasoning like this, but the way he gives reads in posts like 252 271 303 all looks like legitimate attempts to gamesolve, the conclusions I frequently disagree with but it looks like he believes them, he's assessing people's posts and putting out his own thoughts on them. That sort of thing can be faked but from his recent scumgame he seems to struggle significantly at faking his reasoning as scum and I don't get a sense of that here.

Then, the way he claimed:

I am a 2x Neapolitan. I am okay with being mislim today but I rather not.I dont see my role as being that useful as there prob more than 4 power roles and prob one mafia goon. This is just a guess based on my role.

This isn't scum claiming a PR for self-preservation reasons. It seems as though even he wasn't really aware at the time of how useful the neapolitan role is. I just do not see scum claiming in this fashion, making the "you can mislim me if you want" type of statement.

There's also the fact that he still won't push back on Cabd even with most people saying it's very unlikely both of them are town. This is not how someone who's afraid of getting boxed in by cop investigations talks:

Off Topic discussion
- Thats sound good. Is there a lot of good Chinese food in Chicago? Let me know how the food was. Also now know who to ask if I want some great Chicago Style pizza. Not a lot of good pizza places where I live.
sorry for the tangent. Anyways enjoy the food.

ok back to the game
Not knowing what the scum have it might not be a good idea for a mass claim. Don't think that Max claiming doctor was a great move. At least we know that we will get a result tonight as Max can protect Cabd tonight

Max is there any reason not to believe Cabd. I can't see any reason to see her faking this atp.

I think there's a very legitimate naivete here with regard to the roles, where he doesn't seem concerned at all whether anyone is fakeclaiming. I don't get a sense he's acting with an agenda here at all, where scum needs to push someone as elimination, and he just keeps assuming people are town.

There's also the fact that, although I don't necessarily agree with it, his reasoning for investigating lenora's slot at least makes sense and is entirely consistent with his play on day 1.

[maxwell]

By contrast, I felt koba's early play was scummy, they came in strong throwing out reads early but their reasoning was thin and they quickly sort of faded into the background, as the game slowed down they visibly lost any interest in solving before the ban took them out of the game. In particular, when lenora questioned them on their early townread of chumbo and voted them for it, they gave this response:

i saw it as a bit OTT/performative - i'd maybe feel differently if they re-evaluated from it or if I saw the test on nepenthe as useful, but i'm getting the sense that koba is struggling to explain their reads/reasons

VOTE: dkkoba

Well I'm fairly certain that Koba is usually this aggressive and I don't think this relates to "struggling to explain their reads/reasons" in the slightest, it's just how Koba plays the game.

it's not the aggression itself that i find scummy though, it's the explanations.. like townreading Chumbo because he doesn't look like he has information

im a smart player and can see a player who is bumbling around without info on any other slot from a mile away.

do you think chumbo is scum?

This, to me, is the sort of evasion scum do - lenora says koba's reasoning for townreading chumbo was scummy, and koba makes it about chumbo and not about he reasoning for their read - making the argument into "oh, so what, do you think he's scum?". They get a little too righteous in their defense because they know they're (presumably) defending a correct read, but the issue being raised was never whether or not chumbo was town but whether koba had good reason to believe chumbo was town, and in my opinion, at that point in the game, they did not.

Afterwards, Cabd on sub in just doesn't put a whole lot of work toward solving, he calls a few people town without reasoning and drops a case on Umlaut that feels confirmation biasy, the sort of thing I might write as scum where I take everything a person says and call it scummy. But past that, when people don't really bite, he just goes along with whatever's happening in thread, doesn't push anything else, doesn't show a strong sense of sumhunting, is mostly conversing with people rather than analyzing.


I think in particular the timing of his claim is opportunistic and speaks to scum trying to push through a miselimination on a town investigative PR, I simply don't believe town in his situation ever caims there because doing so would risk simply getting NK'ed, where I don't think from his thread presence to that point it was likely. The way he talks about how he doesn't think their roles can coexist but how recent setup design is weird feels like he's trying to build in an excuse to survive after a fuzzy townflip. I also don't really buy his reasoning for investigating clidd whatsoever - in a 9p setup, there are typically 2 mafia, and investigating a townread when you believe you already have one mafia by claim is a complete waste - fact is I don't believe Cabd-town chooses not to investigate Umlaut here, ever, but doing so as scum would mean he'd have to either clear him or fake guilty him, and I don't believe for a moment he wants to do either of those. I absolutely don't believe both claimed investigatives are town, and of the two I find him a lot more inauthentic.

[maxwell]

I don't have a lot of words to explain my clidd read, it's just one of those feelings I got as I went along, "hm, yes, this person is trying to solve the game" but I couldn't point you to a specific post. This is the sort of read where I'm most likely to go wrong because it's purely on feelings but I can't say I've seen anything that raises an alarm for me.

As for Umlaut, his reactions to pressure have felt very genuine, stuff like this:

Here's what gut-pinged me in the Umlaut ISO.... it's giving me feelings of "annoyed that the pool is shrinking" from him. (BORKTELL!!!!) Feels like there's pushback on anything that could at all softclear a player on day one. For example, a player having great posts then not posting for a bit doesn't change the contents of those initial posts?

Wow this read is terrible. I literally made a post proposing a townbloc of 3-5 which is "shrinking the pool" if ever there was such a thing, and the example you cite with Nepenthe and my continuing to say I townread them is literally the opposite of pushing back on softclearing a player. Why are you just making things up?

I rarely go all "how DARE you scumread me" the way some people do but this just fails the most cursory inspection

I'm honestly kicking myself in hindsight for not checking umlaut because it prolly would have been a guilty.

If you think scum!me ever kills Ben last night I need to know what drugs you're taking and where I can get some.

This feels like a townie upset at being accused for reasons they see as unbelievable, not fake scum anger. Subsequent approach to Cabd where he tried to figure out if he was legitimately suspecting him, and decided he may be town weho's wrong didn't feel like scum reflexively OMGUSing

[maxwell]

For Maduisha, this is not particularly a strong read but I'm somewhat building off the assumption of Cabd-scum and the early koba-nepenthe interactions make them less likely to be aligned. This isn't infallible, though, and I can't say nepenthe on play has been strongly town - I get a sense that their push on clidd might be something they sincerely believe, but overall he's been underwhelming is notably avoiding the thread. If I[m wrong on fuzzy I think he is the only person who really makes sense as a partner

Maduisha dose give me vibes of being a bit safe, lot of questioning people, but not strong pushes, this is just a feeling though, I don't have a full scumcase, mainly POE and associations. This post in particular did set me off a little, though:

As for Fuzzy, I feel like he has poured the effort to read through the thread and it shows in the way he complimented the commentaries with links to the posts he refers to when commenting them. I liked that, but it's becoming a little hard to read a slot that mostly posts on weekends.

Although I I felt the posts there from fuzzy were town, the way she explains it bothers me - he's

putting in the effort to read the thread

? And it's shown by

putting in links

? But he's hard to read because he posts at a particular time. The whole thing was very strange and awkward to me, it felt like a fake read, with little concern to actually interact with what he was saying.

But this isn't a full-blown scumcase, I wouldn't vote Maduisha today, think voting between investigative claims is the way to go.

[maxwell]

VOTE: Cabd

[maxwell]

I want to slam my head into my desk.

[maxwell]

I am not understanding your frustration. It seems like mislim a claimed cop is just a terrible idea. Explain why I am wrong here. Nep and me seem like the wild cards in the situration so sorting us out seems like the optimal move for town.... Killing a claim cop seems like is not. Please explain how I am wrong?

Me: repeatedly makes a point about how I do not believe there can be multiple investigative roles in a 9 player setup, and how I think Cabd's play has scum motivation behind it and his actions don't really add up as coming from town
You: but I don't see why Cabd does this as scum

[maxwell]

Does 4 PR make sense in a 9 people game? I come from playing exclusively newbie queue where there are usually only 2.

Neighborizer is basically a neutral role, if town it's a slight impediment to fuzzy's role in that it's another role he receives a non-VT result on. Closed normals are maybe slightly heavier on the power roles than semi-opens these days but 2 fairly town investigatives in a 9p is really entirely out of the question with no godfather role that's capable of producing false positives.

I don't think I'm gonna join that Cabd train simply because I don't think scum!Cabd would claim PR completely unprompted because he'd open himself to counter claim D1 when he was absolutely not endangered that day + he would throw away his JOAT cover. As scum, I don't think he has any reason to stop pretending to be JOAT. In fact, I think it'd give him a perfect reason to be alive for a couple of turns due to supposed wifom done to scum + supposed self protection powers.

Why would he expect a counter claim when fuzzy had already claimed as town investigative? There would be little reason to expect further counters, I don't buy this reasoning at all, entire motive here as scum is to provide justification for a miselimination on town, where otherwise fuzzy would be unvotable by virtue of his claim. The cover is a play that superficially looks fancy and therefore makes people assume it's town but feels largely like smoke and mirrors to me, the flash is mainly served to make him look good and have an explanation for why mafia didn't just NK him, don't buy the timing of his claim in the first place as townie

and this is of course eliding the main point that cop investigating a townread player like clidd makes no sense from a town perspective but makes plenty of sense from the perspective of scum who doesn't want to hand the town too much information by outing a report . However much you may disagree with fuzzy's "theory" behind his investigation, it

makes sense

with how he spoke about lenora on day 1.

[maxwell]

Neighborizer is basically a neutral role, if town it's a slight impediment to fuzzy's role in that it's another role he receives a non-VT result on.

Actually, doesn't this play more into scum!Fuzzy scenario? A town player with a role (Umlaut) specifically designed to fuck with another town player's role (Fuzzy)...

But if Umlaut's role is made to make scum think they hit cop/doctor/other heavy PR, only to murder a 1-shot FN, wouldn't it make more sense for a balanced gameboard for Fuzzy's role to belong to scum?

Not in my opinion. Utility of a scum neapolitan is pretty limited in my opinion, adding a role to obfuscate this makes it sort of useless.

But again, setup spec is hardly the most important thing to my evaluation of the claims. Think fuzzy is way more town on play, the fact he can't get it through his head both claims cannot be real is not scum agenda, it's extreme gullibility.

1-Shot Neighborizer is in my opinion barely a PR at all (I never really figured out what I'm supposed to do with a neighborhood).

Would strongly agree with this, neighborizer claim is basically non alignment indicative

[maxwell]

Thats about the response I expected. Are you seriously trying to claim in a rolecop/goon setup, I replace in and try to kill neither of two claimed investigatives? When doing so risks getting guiltied into autoloss? Or that I try to push an elimination on, BY FAR, the more difficult vote of the two? As scum I'd have gotten 4 votes on fuzzy with no problem.


Well, honestly, I'm not here to spar with you, the ones I need to talk to are fuzzy, clidd, and samantha (strongly suspect maduisha's read is a positional one at this point). Here to talk to them, not to yell at you.

[maxwell]

How did you get here?

the part preceding it

cabd: cop
clidd: ??? town result + neighbor
maxwell: doctor
fuzzy: neopolitan
umlaut: neighborizer
maduisha: vanilla
me: vanilla

tomorrow 5 will likely be alive, and we'll have the information from your role and/or fuzzy's, or information in the lack of information, plus the death result(s)

although I did take for granted neighborizer would be town, and I just looked it up and saw it can be any

basically you get more from leaving power roles (fake or not) sans neighborizer alive today than a vanilla, and since I know I am vanilla that leaves the other vanilla or neighborizer

We miss today, scum just claims a fake guilty in ELo, that 'information' isn't worth much, and theres always one player who unthinkingly sheeps it (fuzzy looks like he'd follow cabd off a cliff at this point). Entirely better to resolve the claims today, you can eliminate me for all I care if you promise to sheep me.


As it is, your vote on maduisha stands basically no chance of getting through, you're more suspected than her by everyone except me because of nepenthe's inactivity and it's not really likely you're going to be able to shift those impressions given the amount of time and the gamestate.

[maxwell]

It's also telling because scum are going to be unwilling to bus today given that doing so puts them in a guaranteed loss.

[maxwell]

then we only could mess up once... right?

what I meant there was that the next day would be lylo?

if we lynch today the pool would be reduced and we'd have 2 shots instead of 1, unless I'm missing something

Yes, that's correct, we have one remaining miselimination before ELo.

[maxwell]

Right now what is in my head is that we're actually better off eliminating outside of [Cabd, Max], because if Cabd really is town, they don't want to leave Cabd alive to get another clear/possibly a guilty. But with a doctor around (assuming Max to be town too), they probably have to shoot Max before they can get to Cabd at all (if we can convince Max to protect Cabd). If they shoot Max, we have one more turn of Cabd investigation. So, I believe Max's slot will sort itself during the night phase, if we trust that Cabd is town.

I guess I'm really trying to seriously avoid considering scum!Cabd scenario for the sake of my sanity, the way he claimed is just not scum in my mind. I haven't had much sleep, so my logic might not be too good right now. Someone please let me know if it makes sense to leave both of them alone for today, I think it's a good move, but I understand it relies heavily in trusting Cabd is town and I understand that might be controversial for others that don't share my view on his moves during D1.

This just comes across as visibly fencesitting. Both of us are quite convinced the other is scum, and you're talking about letting night actions resolve us instead of just using the elimination, ignoring completely the scenario where one of us is scum and you're faced with a 50/50 tomorrow, with nothing learned from it.

Do you actually, truly believe we are both town? Then who is the scum team, in your opinion?

[maxwell]

Just because you

believe

it doesn't make it so, pretty sure Neapolitans are townsided more often than not and his play pretty clearl doesn't make sense from a scum perspective.

So, from my point of view the scum team is Fuzzy + ???. And the empty space is someone that is fake claiming, or the newest replacement. As I don't have any leads so far on the partner, and people want to eliminate one of the claimed PR to sort stuff out, I'd rather eliminate the "lesser cop" if we truly were to be wrong about the NK. I understand why other people would not share my view, but I don't understand why are you calling me out for fencesitting.

There are only 7 people left alive, you're flagrantly avoiding trying to scumhunt or make a conclusion here. It should not be hard to take some sort of stance, at all. Are you seriously proposing that fuzzy and nepenthe's slot are teamed? He is voting them. His response to me pushing on Cabd was to say something to the effect of, "I dont want to vote a cop, let's vote nepenthe". You realize from his position this would be bussing into autoloss? There's absolutely no way a rational player could actually think fuzzy and nepenthe are teamed here.

[maxwell]

Honestly, we can agree or disagree on an opinion and you can trash my reads, go against my proposal, or anything else you'd see fitting, but claiming I'm not trying to scumhunt or solve as a whole simply because you don't agree with my way to solve is in bad taste and upsetting. I won't tell you how to play because I don't have any right to, but I'd appreciate not having my efforts to understand the game handwoven simply because our mindsets don't meld together.

No, actually, accusing me of this because I'm pointing out your deliberate avoidance of taking any sort of stance is in extremely bad taste. You're resorting to emotional manipulation because I called you on your behavior. In the very post before this, you straddle multiple fences at the same time: Oh, samantha

could

be scum, I

could

be scum, Umlaut

could

be scum, you're refusing to take a stance on half the slots in the game, it shouldn't be this hard to give some sort of attempt at a read on people, avoiding the subject like this is incredibly scummy

Max, I'll admit I haven't read very carefully, so maybe you've already answered this. Why

did

you protect clidd, as opposed to one of the two alleged investigators? It's a surprising choice. About equally as surprising as Cabd investigating clidd instead of Fuzzy.

In my estimation, one of the claims had to be fake, a sacrifice kill was unlikely, better to protect someone who looked towny at a glance that I wanted to keep in the game.

[maxwell]

i think it is likely scum is claiming vanilla. Giving my role and Cabd role it is likely one is claiming VT to make the balance seem more town heavy then it is. As i believe Cabd role.

TBF it is weird that Cabd investigated Clidd instead of me since i was the number 1 suspect yesterday. Part of me thinks that it was that she was paranoid and wanted to make sure Clidd was town since he was TR by almost everyone. The other is i might be wrong and for some reason and Cabd is fake claiming.

Fuzzy, can you please, please give some consideration to the people here who have an understanding of setup balance who are telling you it is basically impossible that your role, a cop, and a doctor exist inside the same setup. I'm saying it, Cabd is saying it, Umlaut has actually modded normal games, we can't all be scum.

[maxwell]

Nah, you're deliberately being evasive in your stances. You're refusing to commit to a read on multiple players or analyze the likelihood of possible scumteams, because if you try to actually look for a scumbuddy for fuzzy, it falls apart pretty quickly. Last I communicate with you on the matter. Fairly sure you're scum now so I'm not going to bother debating you anymore. My words are for those I need to convince.

[maxwell]

I'm literally not reading anything Cabd posts at this point because I don't believe the noise generated by a prolonged back and forth would be productive at all and I need to appeal to other players, not him. I've staked out my positions, if anyone else has questions feel free to ask.

[maxwell]

I just went through all of chumbo's mafia games, then compared 2 of maduisha's (town/mafia), and 2 of cabd's (town games - not mafia for years?) to this one

chumbo gave me nothing

viewtopic.php?p=12524008&user_select%5B%5D=35093 this game
viewtopic.php?p=12449995&user_select%5B%5D=35093 mason
viewtopic.php?p=12381275&user_select%5B%5D=35093 mafia


maduisha's were surprisingly similar, the main thing I noticed was that she was aggressive a lottt faster as town, and with mafia her tone visibly shifted. I also noticed a tendency to post too much information compared to town, like not a "slip" but rather trying too hard

viewtopic.php?p=12524333&user_select%5B%5D=33961 this game
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82949&user_select%5B%5D=33961 mafia
viewtopic.php?p=12469439&user_select%5B%5D=33961 town


I was planning to keep going down the list of players before posting anything, but holy heck is cabd posting differently in this game. I mean I get that they are games of different sizes with different players, and that can affect what you write a lot, but it's like night and day

viewtopic.php?p=12569559&user_select%5B%5D=20847 this game
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84949&user_select%5B%5D=20847 town 1
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85085&user_select%5B%5D=20847 town 2

it's so stark that it's noticeable even if you don't read what he wrote and just scroll down the pages quickly

Why'd you look at the meta of those players in particular?

[maxwell]

Meanwhile worrying fuzzy is getting pocketed by talk about pizza.

[maxwell]

Max- what do you think of Sam's general activity level. To me it seems like (except for the above post )they has done little and is pretty much lurking . Giving the VT claim which is a pretty safe claim it seems like it is possible she is scum maybe hiding back and seeing if town will miselim themself. Any thoughts?


@Max- If i get pocketed by pizza talk am okay with that. I am like Chewbacca. Always thinking with my stomach.

seriously though I dont take those convos in consideration when TR or SR a player. Though i do love pizza

She's been in the game for 2 days and has made reads, is trying to meta everyone in the game apparently, there's nothing at all to believe she's not legitimately trying to solve the game.

Compare that to Maduisha, who's been in the game the entire time but isn't even trying to take stances on most of the players.

[maxwell]

Near absolute certain sam flips town and the game is fast-tracked to a loss when it happens.

[maxwell]

I don't have the same time invested as you all so I won't be that bothered if you lynch me today, but you are going to be in lylo tomorrow if you do

since I'm going to bed I'll just say that my instinct was that clidd and cadb were mafia going into day 2, it's only roles gave me any reason to think otherwise

Why clidd, out of curiosity?

[maxwell]

I think the early game between koba/chumbo is very rarely ever scum/scum, scum rarely give early townreads on their partners.

[maxwell]

I think voting in VTs is just punting on a hard decision because you're afraid of getting it wrong, on a day where we're allowed to get it wrong. Ultimately, in a sam-town world, where does that leave us? Cabd claims a guilty tomorrow and you're left trying to sort who is fakeclaiming PR, still. Same decision we're facing down today. At that point do people finally consider maduisha scum? I sort of doubt it. Meanwhile if we eliminate one of us today, we learn that person is town, their read on their counterpart is good, their partner has tied themselves to them enough this day phase that they can be caught.

Like, in a hypothetical world where I'm scum with sam, I can't win no matter what, basically. One of us gets flipped after the other pretty much always. What concerns me is the idea that I get ignored > she gets eliminated and flips town > I STILL get ignored despite having been right about her. I would legitimately vote myself before voting sam.

[maxwell]

Max, do you think Maduisha is actually more likely to be scum than Sam? I would like to see a scumcase or something like that if you have the energy. If not, just summarize by citing posts.

Nothing Sam has done so far has given me the impression that she is genuinely town/solving.

I think my exchange with Maduisha pretty much sealed the idea in my mind that she's scum. I think the way she's playing is cautious/avoidant and that comes from scum in a situation where the pushes they can make are limited to certain strategic ones. I can try to case it to make it easy to understand but I'm not sure if I'll be able to explain it in a way that'll come across.

I admit, sam's posts have been underwhelming, the vote on madu on entering wasn't great simply because it showed a lack of awareness to the gamestate, but do I think she's scum for it? It feels less likely because I don't see her making any sort of strategic push that would be advantageous to scum.

I could of course just be wrong, typing it over made me doubt myself a little bit, because I could still see her as possibly being scum, I can't say her posting has been super townie or anything, it's just my feelings about Maduisha overriding everything at the moment.

[maxwell]

Should also clarify that I'm still far more confident in cabd-scum than I am of Maduisha which is why I'd rather resolve the PR claims today. There is a slight speculative element to my read in that I somewhat doubt Cabs pulls a PR counterclaim gambit as scum if his partner is a lurker he can't depend on to carry to endgame, but that's just a guess, not really something to pin a case on.

[maxwell]

I think voting in VTs is just punting on a hard decision because you're afraid of getting it wrong, on a day where we're allowed to get it wrong. Ultimately, in a sam-town world, where does that leave us? Cabd claims a guilty tomorrow and you're left trying to sort who is fakeclaiming PR, still. Same decision we're facing down today. At that point do people finally consider maduisha scum? I sort of doubt it. Meanwhile if we eliminate one of us today, we learn that person is town, their read on their counterpart is good, their partner has tied themselves to them enough this day phase that they can be caught.

Well, I kind of agree that it's putting off a hard decision, but it's putting it off until we have more information, not just putting it off for the sake of not having to think about it. ideally tonight either Mafia helps us choose by killing a PR or we get another actual PR result (though we do have to decide which result is actual). By eliminating a VT we accomplish this much even if we get it wrong.

Speaking for myself I will absolutely go for Maduisha scum if Sam is known to be town. Pretty sure clidd will as well. Can't speak for anyone else but it's not the insurmountable hill you're making it out to be here.

Sorry, in hindsight, I panicked a bit because I'm tunneled and I tend to get worried when people have seemingly entrenched townreads.

Max, are you there?

After a debate, I kind of agree with Umlaut to eliminate between Maduisha and Sam today.

But, again, how confident do you think you're on scum!Maduisha over scum!Sam?

On review today, I don't find Sam as towny as I did last night, and I have a hard time defending her here. I still believe there's a decent chance based on associations that Maduisha could be scum, but associations can lead down false rabbit holes, as they have for me before. I just know that scum are going to be unwilling to bus their partner today because of the mechanics and that informs my read pretty strongly.

If you guys are willing to lay out a mechanical plan for tonight, I'm okay with a vote on a VT claim today.

[maxwell]

To try to articulate the things that put me at unease: Madu questions Koba about their Chumbo read in 130, complains about being ignored in 142, explains herself again in 148, koba gives a one-line answer right after, that seems to be enough for her, interaction ends there. Later in 227 she gives a read of Koba that is "null because I still don't know how to read them but I think their posts look pretty spontanous so far", fairly noncommital. When Cabd replaces in she's critical of him not explaining his reads in 296, she simultaneously says him no talking about being in his scum meta pings her but concludes, "oh it's probably NAI". The whole thing where she's lightly critical of him but doesn't really push on him triggers my distancing alarms. She ends up switching to hard townreading him in 390 for his posts giving her "authenticity vibes", which is a fairly empty statement (what about it was authentic? Why?) and for continuing his tangent talk with clidd when she said she'd found it suspicious before, which isn't really much of a satisfying explanation, he kept doing the thing that pinged her so that's apparently town, never bothered to articulate his reads, it's like she decided to loltownbin him out of convenience.


I'm probably not going to be able to fully articulate what I didn't like about her D1, I just have something of a bad gut feeling that there was a lot of questioning toward the appearance of being productive and not a lot in the way of strong pressure, the way she voted nepenthe for seemingly contradictory reads on clidd/chumbo's entrances feels like an easy thing to try to score points on someone, the "I believe a little back and forth could help us understand each other, if you are willing to engage with me here." in 449 pings somewhat as it looks like someone trying to be "fair" with their push.


If you're not convinced, that's understandable. I'd still probably guess Maduisha before samantha but typing this out made me really not confident in it at all.

[maxwell]

Looking that back up also brought me to look at 266 from nepenthe again, which is a very "eh" read on koba, I don't like how he ultimately only concludes with "I'm wary of that slot" rather than anything concrete, 521 is a hedge where he calls cabd's claim "opportunistic" but comes down with "both could be real", he's expressing doubt but no action, don't like it either.

[maxwell]

I guess the tipping point for me is that Madu seems to be persistent in her pus of fuzzy who I'm pretty sure is town and that speaks scum agenda to me, Sam seems more open to reading the game but hasn't voted anyone other than Madu so I don't know how real it is.

I've successfully un-convinced myself. Go ahead, decide for yourselves I suppose.

[maxwell]

Having night actions planned out here increases accountability and prevents scum from claiming convenient actions after the fact.

[maxwell]

Btw, Max, your final conclusion is 50/50 or just Maduisha?

I still lean toward maduisha on interaction but it's something like 70% confidence and if I'm being fully honest I worry if I'm wrong and Samantha is scum and I stand in the way of voting her today, it all comes back on me.

[maxwell]

I don't understand why you're trusting me with a mech plan when you're closer to conftown than I am (the only way you're scum is if the team is exactly you and Cabd, and that doesn't make a whole lot of sense), but okay...

Assuming Fuzzy is town, he targets within the VT claims, obviously. Probably he should target Maduisha if we're launching Sam today.

Assuming Cabd is town, he targets one of the other two strong PR claims: that is, Fuzzy or Max. It doesn't matter which, a green check on one is as good as a red check on the other. In fact it's probably best that he (privately) flip a coin to minimize predictability, in case scum have something weird like a rolestopper.

Assuming maxwell is town, he protects Cabd tonight. This is obviously correct if we succeed in launching scum today, and if not then Cabd is still the one most likely to give us a definite result.

Cabd checking in a PR claim seems un-optimal, one of me/fuzzy highly likely gets shot in this plan and then the report probably isn't all that informative because the remainng living player is a presumed counterclaim, would think him checking in umlaut/mauisha/samantha (if we mis-eliminate today) is a better choice because it would force a team

[maxwell]

I still lean toward maduisha on interaction but it's something like 70% confidence and if I'm being fully honest I worry if I'm wrong and Samantha is scum and I stand in the way of voting her today, it all comes back on me.

well both could be wrong, but I find I regret a lack of conviction more than being wrong after a mafia game

nothing hurts more than the one that got away

That's understandable, but I need to see more of where your head is at. Are you still settled on Maduisha as scum. Who do you see as potentially cum otherwise? You started meta-ing everyone and then it came to a halt, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what people have done in

this

game

[maxwell]

I don't understand why you're trusting me with a mech plan when you're closer to conftown than I am (the only way you're scum is if the team is exactly you and Cabd, and that doesn't make a whole lot of sense), but okay...

Assuming Fuzzy is town, he targets within the VT claims, obviously. Probably he should target Maduisha if we're launching Sam today.

Assuming Cabd is town, he targets one of the other two strong PR claims: that is, Fuzzy or Max. It doesn't matter which, a green check on one is as good as a red check on the other. In fact it's probably best that he (privately) flip a coin to minimize predictability, in case scum have something weird like a rolestopper.

Assuming maxwell is town, he protects Cabd tonight. This is obviously correct if we succeed in launching scum today, and if not then Cabd is still the one most likely to give us a definite result.

Cabd checking in a PR claim seems un-optimal, one of me/fuzzy highly likely gets shot in this plan and then the report probably isn't all that informative because the remainng living player is a presumed counterclaim, would think him checking in umlaut/mauisha/samantha (if we mis-eliminate today) is a better choice because it would force a team

(if we do get a scumflip I entirely agree he should check a PR claim, of course)

[maxwell]

Hard disagree. If the PRs are all checking in the vanillas then scum's best plan is to keep all PRs alive and aim for town to eliminate the wrong one. If all Cabd targeting in the PRs does is force scum to kill one of them then that is already a useful service.

Scum shooting in vanillas would still be a service, because by the same reasoning it narrows our choices there. In any such instance, he still has to give reports, can check a PR claim on night 3 if we get through day 3.

[maxwell]

Maybe I'm being dumb but I don't expect a scum to just immediately selfvote here given the situation it would put them in. Her recent posts before that looked believable. I'm going to flip, I think I got tunneled.

VOTE: samantha


To clarify my feelings on the investigation target for Cabd: it's more or less assumed that one of me or fuzzy is likely a counter claim to Cabd because otherwise the setup would be imbalanced, so him checking one of us doesn't change much, o the assumption we are incorrect today. Investigating outside PRs narrows down possible teams and makes people consider different worlds. If there's disagreement, fine, but I want to make my voice heard on that one point.

[maxwell]

no idea why you guys aren't suspecting that that was a gambit

I mean... it even worked lol

There's always the possibility, but I didn't think she seemed the type, I guess it's something Cabd could have come up with.

UNVOTE:

[maxwell]

Rereading Maduisha's ast post I don't like it as much. This is harder than it has any right to be.

[maxwell]

Okay. Sorry if I've erred in my read.

Wouldn't endorse a clidd check either, a universal clear is nice but suspect night actions resolve it.

[maxwell]

I want to reread one more time before the hammer.

[maxwell]

I know you're still saying you think I'm town but it bugs me regardless so I wanna say this: no mafia is gonna fake #777

when I joined I roleclaimed without even reading any current pages; I had only read page 1-7 and skipped to zulfy's death. I didn't even know what the nk was. I had bendover in my notes as something like "one foot out the door", since he seemed to be noncommittal and playing both sides, but I deleted it when I read up to page 2

to expand on dkkoba being ":3", like I said before, I already am pretty familiar with dkkoba so that was just an intent to search for their use of :3 and see if that was indicative of anything. But it turned out impossible to search that on this site since it was too few characters, and google just turns up with "3" and ignores the colon

I don't understand what about that is un-fakeable? Were those your notes on the first 7 pages?

[maxwell]

Okay, why is #777 supposed to be something mafia won't fake?

[maxwell]

I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you're trying to argue here. I also don't understand why the notes don't correspond to the players you posted links on.. Why were the ones you had notes on not your priority?

[maxwell]

My reread took me to the opposite conclusion as clidd - on looking back, I don't find nepenthe or samantha towny at all and my reasons for thinking so weren't very good. I've got a hunch that I'm wrong here.

I'm waffling a lot for sure but would appreciate it if Maduisha would unvote here.

[maxwell]

Lol, if I was scum with her I would've hammered you when I had the chance

[maxwell]

I'm also singularly the reason why she's being considered as scum at all, do you really think I derail a wagon on you to potentially bus into autoloss when my partner is being generally townread? That would be not only rude but incredibly stupid. I don't understand how that's a real thought you could have.

[maxwell]

That's blindly ignoring the context of this game and the roles that have been outed, were I scum here, I lose the game if my partner is voted because cabd guilties me tomorrow. Following that, I'd never try to scumcase her at all and certainly would have hammered you when I had the opportunity.

[maxwell]

I feel alienated, I flipped my own read just as other people seem to have changed and I don't get it.

[maxwell]

I will hammer only out of need to avoid nolim. I think fairly strongly that this flips town.

That's blindly ignoring the context of this game and the roles that have been outed, were I scum here, I lose the game if my partner is voted because cabd guilties me tomorrow. Following that, I'd never try to scumcase her at all and certainly would have hammered you when I had the opportunity.

I was gonna object and say you could just shoot me but yeah that's a scumclaim too since you're claimed doc.

These, BTW, are weird, insubstantial popins, at a point in time where I'd REALLY expect town to be putting in more effort if they didn't agree with the course of the currentday, second post is bbarely saying anything, just a tangential mechanics related statement that avoids meaningful commentary on the current argument.

[maxwell]

Unvote yourself, please and thank you

[maxwell]

Lol, if I was scum with her I would've hammered you when I had the chance

This is a bit convoluted because there's a bunch of people that had the chance to hammer me or Samantha last night (including me and Samantha who could've hammered the other at different points, lol). I don't think it's indicative of anything. I don't think you're scum, but yeah.

I don't think that checks out, samantha's been voting you since she replaced in and sam was only at E-1 briefly, not that having the hammer on the other means a whole lot. You'd still have to answer why I'd dismantle a wagon on town to push my partner (I wouldn't).

Ah, alright, I will unvote for the time being.

UNVOTE:

I don't think it was necessary because if someone wanted to hammer me, they would have already... I was gone for a long time because I needed to sleep + was busy for most of today and nobody wanted to do it, but alright.

fuzzy announced intent, people are just willing to wait on clidd, but I don't really think it's you anymore

[maxwell]

VOTE: samantha97

Like I said, call it a hunch.

[maxwell]

Something about the way Maxwell is actively stalling and then derailing the Maduisha wagon he said he wanted, just as he finally gets it, is making me want it more.

VOTE: Maduisha

Back to L-1 you go. Someone hammer this while we still can.

I'm not allowed to change my mind?

[maxwell]

also letting the wagon sit at e-1 was not in his power, as he wasn't voting on it

Okay, but I'm the reason why the wagonexists in the first place, do you think I try to bus when I've been forced to claim a power role? This is seriously nonsensical.

[maxwell]

samantha's arguments here are very forced.

[maxwell]

What exactly are you finding towny about nepenthe? On a re-read of their ISO I found them staggeringly mediocre.

[maxwell]

People tend to dogmatically rail against preflip associatives but given the smallish size of the game you have to look at who makes sense as a team and sam's reasoning here isn't good. Sort of staggering that she barely had the energy to do anything for the first few days after replace in but now is furiously trying to tie me to maduisha to ensure the wagon happens.

[maxwell]

I thought I already explained it? I thought one of the PR claims was likely fake and mafia was highly unlikely to sac by killing the other and incriminating themselves, and if they did, it's no big deal, better to protect someone I had as a townread.

[maxwell]

Hey Cabd, if you think this wagon's on town, shouldn't you be pushing a counterwagon?

[maxwell]

I think in this case it could just as easily be unselfconsciously throwing out reads without bothering to check on whether there's a consistent thought pattern, like he could've justbeen commenting without paying attention to who was in the slot because he isn't actually solving and doesn't care to keep track. I can see in some sense the tone but I still feel as though his reasoning behind all his pushes was extremely shallow on review. Ultimately all he really had on voting you was "uses too many words" which pretty shoody. There was also this bit in his iso:

okay yeah... fuzzy's play makes sense in the context of a pr. i guess i can see how they got scumread but it's kind of a reach. people i'd be comfortable voting today are still clidd, definitely cabd. i don't really see zulfy as being particularly towny either, but i'm open to being proven wrong. also - hopefully will be able to commit more time to this game at hours that make sense this week and opening myself up to any questions people might have in order to help themselves read me.

First time he mentions cabd is as a possible vote, the most he said prior to this was that "i'm wary of that slot", it doesn't really make sense as a progression at all and he makes basically no comment on cabd's content itself.

[maxwell]

Speaking of, as I'm revisiting this iso:

okay yeah... fuzzy's play makes sense in the context of a pr. i guess i can see how they got scumread but it's kind of a reach. people i'd be comfortable voting today are still clidd, definitely cabd. i don't really see zulfy as being particularly towny either, but i'm open to being proven wrong. also - hopefully will be able to commit more time to this game at hours that make sense this week and opening myself up to any questions people might have in order to help themselves read me.

My only question to you is if you can expand your read on me in a way where you say literally everything you are thinking, without filters, regardless of whether or not you have an offensive opinion. It is important that I understand exactly how you are seeing me, because then I can tell if you are town or scum fosing me.

my issue with this is that if i fos you, it wouldn't make sense for me to want to appeal to you or prove that i'm town - if i see you as mafia, then i see you as an informed minority which means that i feel confidently that you know i'm town. feels like a bit of a logical disconnect.

in any case, i think it's just your playstyle. sidebar for everyone: i'm going into this without meta and i'd prefer not to look at people's previous games when i say things about playstyle either - i want everyone to feel like they have a clean slate insofar as from me, they'll only be judged on how they play in this game

for me, it's that you say what looks like a lot but is really just a very simple idea expanded on to give the appearance of more content, and i get the feeling you're playing to a specific agenda which is always scum indicative to me. i think town is more natural in how they observe and share their findings and something about you today feels like you're maneuvering to find the easiest person to lynch.

Doesn't this fit that model of behavior? He's pushing at you but being polite about it, trying to appear 'reasonable'.

[maxwell]

I don't have a ton more to go on, maduisha stayed committed to her view of the game even as I was tunneling her, where in her situation I'd expect more pushback from scum on me, rather than trying to reason things out.

[maxwell]

well your hunch is bad

if you really don't want to lynch maduisha for some reason then I can vote for cabd if there's support for it

Since I seem to have missed this for some reason the first time, let me answer it: I think cabd's play around this deadline has been exceptionally scummy and I would absolutely still vote him in a heartbeat if there was support there.

[maxwell]

I probably don't claim doctor here as scum, too uncomfortable of a fit with the setup. But WIFOM, etc, not worth putting much stock in that argument. Attacking me for the timing of my claim doesn't make sense, though: fuzzy had outed his result on me, I basically have to out from that point. The reason I waited until after he said I was non-VT is that, in the off chance he was lying about his claim, I'd be able to counter him. None of this is scummy, I did what I had to do given the situation. People weren't going to let fuzzy not out a result with hw suspected he was at the time.

[maxwell]

Uh... but it makes no sense for Maxwell to both claim doctor and try to bus when he's already suspected for the claim...

Spending the whole day saying you suspect a buddy when they are absolutely not anywhere near the chopping block, and then suddenly flipping that read around once it turns out they might actually get chopped, is not really busing though.

This really drastically misrepresents my play and the extent to which I have tried to influence the vote, by the way. I wasn't just "saying" I suspected her, I repeatedly made arguments for why I thought she was scum. I have no idea why Umlaut's acting like I was passive toward this situation.

[maxwell]

I'm not protecting scum tonight, have fun guessing

[maxwell]

Sorry if you're town maduisha. (Which I'm assuming, based on Cabd's very scummy "ahh deadline" hammer 3 hours out from the actual deadline). I went overboard.

[maxwell]

Want to note again, even though this is going to completely get passed over by the people reading it, as usual, that cabd did effectively no scumhunting at all leading up to this deadline.

[maxwell]

I mean, if she's scum, great, the game is won in spite of me. But I doubt it, and cabd, despite a stated certainty she was town, spent exactly 0 effort attempting to push any sort of alternative. Incredibly frustrating to have someone playing so blatantly scummy get a pass from multiple players.

[maxwell]

Well, sorry for the total fail on my part this game. Big time crap reads on my part

FWIW, not that it matters, I was bluffing with my role - it's actually a simple doctor, I can only protect VTs, so even hypothetically, I couldn't have protected Cabd, although I suppose making a ton of noise about how I scumread him didn't help.

I'm presuming fuzzy clears samantha here. I think it's probably him but really I can't wrap my head around what the mafia were doing yesterday.

[maxwell]

Looking at maduisha's ISO, she townbins Umlaut relatively early for not much reason and interacts with him a few times, mentions him as a suspect yesterday, but always a secondary one. I guess it's not impossible for them to be teammates but I struggle to understand why umlaut buses yesterday.

I'm left completely puzzled as to what scum were doing yesterday. I think maduisha busing fuzzy makes more sense than Umlaut going through with a hard bus on Maduisha but neither makes a ton of sense to me, really.

[maxwell]

Umlaut: Why'd you reverse your stance on Maduisha, exactly?

[maxwell]

Umlaut: Why'd you reverse your stance on Maduisha, exactly?

If you mean why did I vote them, I was originally of the opinion that Sam was a better elimination out of the two but I didn't really have a strong read on either one of them. I was always willing to vote Maduisha if it came down to it. The reason I made the vote when I did was because I saw a push to change wagons between those two for like the zillionth time for trivial reasons and I didn't like it.

You didn't really have a strong read on either of them?

Town pings on Maduisha.

Maduisha and Nepenthe are probably town

[*]Not really interested in Maduisha

[*]Also pretty confident Maduisha and Maxwell are town

I'm having trouble thinking about this game today.

VOTE: Sam

Can we just do this today and hold off on the PRs? If we assume exactly one of {Cabd, Fuzzy, maxwell} is scum and one of {me, clidd, Maduisha, samantha} is scum (and I do assume that), then honestly I'm much more confident about who is the scum in the latter group.

UNVOTE: Sam

Willing to vote Maduisha at this point but I'd like to get the answer to that question.

Prior to that last post, every mention you made of her was calling her town, never with actual reason. How are you saying you didn't have a strong read? In particular, in 755 you say you're

much

more confident about who is scum in Maduisha/samantha - where did that confidence come from, and why did it change?

[maxwell]

Strictly speaking, simple doctor is a terrible role that's damn near useless, and the the only utility I actually had was to bluff with my claim and hope I drew the NK over a role that can actually do something. Fully claiming yesterday would have been self-neutering. We might have avoided a lot of the bad setup spec arguments if we'd known everyone was claiming a stronger version of their role though.

[maxwell]

No one has anything to say about this, then?

I guess not, trying to figure things out on setup spec has burnt me pretty bad -

oh, wait, if fuzzy is, say, a mafia rolecop, they'd know I wasn't able to protect cabd anyway, and suddenly the mafia's play yesterday makes sense. Lurker slot is kind of a typical rolecop target, too, which makes more sense than his explanation.

[maxwell]

I was on clidd, because he was conf town and like I said, I can't protect power roles.

I suppose that is a bit scumsided but it makes some degree of sense, I think? I've clearly gotten very it very wrong on setup spec arguments, though.

[maxwell]

I feel like both Maxwell's and Fuzzy's new role modifications are too convenient. Fuzzy's allows him to avoid giving a new result until lylo (when he' would presumably red-check Sam or something), and Maxwell's allows him to explain why he didn't stop the Cabd kill.

If the one of you who is town had just

told the whole story

about your role, I would pretty much auto-vote the other today when they tried to change it up. That's what you get for being coy.

This is understandable, but hopefully you at least understand why I chose to hide that role modifier? I didn't think outing it served potown utility, but I hadn't considered the possibility I'd simply been rolecopped (even though this is the ssecond time I've fallen for a bad vanilla cop claim)

[maxwell]

If I can firm up an answer and get a definite read on the last scum, I don't mind being voted today, can have a laugh with cabd about how stupid we were to tunnel each other.

[maxwell]

Is modifying your claim to be non-consecutive not equally as convenient? Why'd you leave that out when you first claimed?

[maxwell]

If umlaut's progression on Maduisha is unusual, fuzzy's is downright non-existant.

Maduisha- As I stated it was just first thoughts. Scum like easy targets and since newbie are still adjusting to the new playstyle of a new site ( all mafia sites plays differently) it makes them easy targets. Scum also sometimes like to fish. That is to test the water to see if other players will join in the elimination.A lot of time they do it before voting. On the other hand, I could just be paranoid which for me is very possible.

Dakoba

- the first few post of Koba were blah. 150 is okay I guess. I would like to hear what exactly the approach Zufy took that gave Koba the scum read. I like the pressure she is putting on Madisha here 159. I read Koba other posts and honestly, there was nothing there. I dont what to make out of her drop in quality

all my thoughts are based on page 5 and on....same as the above list

Umlaut

131 liking the push back on Zulfy here. This is something that needed clarity. 153 is weak.

I am not getting why he is town reading Maduesha . If it because of her previous post there was nothing in particular that would push for a particular alignment. I found her post pretty null.

I think the read needs a better explanation. I would say the same thing about his strong town read on Clidd in 165. He seems to be interacting with Clidd a lot and I dont know if it because he trying to form a town alliance or if he just budddying him. 172 feels a bit vague. what exactly about Clidds reads that he likes? 248 seems odd to me. He scum reads me then suddenly remember that in my old game I was lunchbait. Not sure what to make of this sudden revelation.

Intent to hammer.....

Maduessa seems like frustrated scum then frustrated townie. I been and seen both and from my experience, it seems like she the former more than the latter. I know this is WIFOM but I think that my gut is right on this

will hammer when Clidd is ready

In fact, he never bothers expressing a read on her at all until she's at E-1 and suddenly he's okay with hammering her. Didn't even address her when he was doing individual reads on everyone. Would say this looks like partner avoidance.

[maxwell]

I think mechanically, voting me today guarantees a 50/50 tomorrow so it's the "safe" vote but give me time to read everyone and make a final call. Fuzzy's drive-by vote is bothersome to me, though.

[maxwell]

I think, looking back at maduisha's ISO, it makes more sense for her push on fuzzy to be a bus, if we assume i was rolecopped and they knew I couldn't protect the cop, umlaut being scum makes less sense in terms of setup balance and a bus would be risky if it's assumed the cop gets a result. Maduisha mostly just safely townbinned Umlaut and argued with him a few times were with fuzzy she was null, needs to participate more, gave that weird read on him I highlighted that was a hedge, was very cautious around his claim.

Think the response to his claim here:

The only way I can work that logic is "it's fine if they cc me, they die the next day for lying." But it would only make sense if it means he is not willing to fight to get the liar eliminated instead...

@Fuzzy please address this whenever you come back.

I will vote wherever the majority does, but I still want to hear Fuzzy out if possible because of that confusing cc argument of his that is confusing me in terms of the logic that went through his mind when he typed it the way he did. It's giving me bad vibes combined with Cabd's role existing as I'm not used to PR heavy games or role type overlapping.

I don't really scumread Zulfy, but he's in my pool of weakest reads right now, so if it ends up being like that, I will support it.

I'd like the y/n answers from Nepenthe before the D1 turn ends, too...

Is something like wanting to maintain skepticism of fuzzy but not really push on him.

Maybe I'm crazy, but the push on him look like a bus, like she was trying to catch him out by being clever but it made her look worse instead because the reasoning didn't make sense:

Actually, wouldn't it have been more logical for Fuzzy to check whether Cabd was actually PR or lying, considering he made posts like this:

Maybe I am wrong but Cabd's claim seems like a bluff or a gambit atp . if that is true I dont know if that makes him town or scum. I would lean town as it would be a wierd gambit /bluff coming town. His action does not seem to match up with what one would expect from a player with that role. I guess he could be a JOAT but I have my doubts atm.

VOTE: TheFuzzylogic99

Why did you think an inactive slot was worth spending your action on instead of a player you were calling out for bluffing like this?

Legitimately the

only

explanation I can come up with for why she ignored the TvT tunneling between me and Cabd was because she wanted to be 'right' with her vote, otherwise why vote one town PR when the other two are fighting? My Guess is it was a bus.

I'll cite posts if you want support for what I'm saying about Maduisha's interactions but I think I'm okay with saying she was trying to bus fuzzy yesterday and he's the last scum.

[maxwell]

Yeah, blunder on my part, but also totally irrelevant, given I didn't say that until the day was ending - scum couldn't have known I wasn't going to do it in spite of my tunneling, unless they had investigated me and knew I couldn't, and from that perspective you bussing makes more sense than umlaut bussing. I can't evaluate people's actions based on things I was going to do in the future.

[maxwell]

Near absolute certain sam flips town and the game is fast-tracked to a loss when it happens.

Just for the record, I never make this post yesterday as scum when sam was placed at E-1. I know I later reversed my read and that's my bad, but if an opportunity to eliminate town comes up, I say, "sure, let's go for it" and hammer rather than making a stink about it only to freak out when the predictable outcome of my partner getting voted happens instead. I don't necessarily expect that to get believed but that's what we have the miseliminaion for. Just for the record, though: scum rarely ever plays the way I did, because they gain nothing from it.

[maxwell]

Also you have yet to accurately explain anything and keep pushing the narrative to me.

What haven't I "accurately explained"? I'm not "pushing a narrative", I'm speculating as to who the last scum is based on the info I have. You've only responded by making vague attacks and ignoring any of the points I'm making while just making arguments about my claim being "convenient". Tell me again why you didn't mention your non-consecutive modifier earlier?

[maxwell]

Max- You realize that you are using WIFOM.

What??? Where? How does this address ANYTHING I have said? Why are you avoiding actually responding to my questions?

[maxwell]

VOTE: fuzzy

It is now.

[maxwell]

Was that actually intended as a test, or did everyone just take fuzzy at his word? I hadn't actually voted him. Either way, good work, good game.

[maxwell]

I'd have probably done it anyway, but nice to get a confession! Sorry for being a huge derp day 2.