Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[RLotus]

Datisi + maxwell + Momrangal case closed

[RLotus]

Actually I'm mostly confident in Datisi

[RLotus]

BM was towny for like 2 pages then fell off, I think Momrangal is getting too much of a pass

[RLotus]

Datisi has been doing this interviewer mode thing and often when someone doesn't answer a question he will hook them in try to force answers out of them. This isn't necessarily scummy on the surface, but reading back through his iso, I believe his purpose for doing this is to appear engaged rather than asking useful questions. A couple of times Datisi has asked me a question that I felt like isn't that useful and I don't really feel like answering, hopefully I'm not the only one.

If you look at Datisi's voting this game, he isn't really voting where he is pushing. Rather, he is riding town's wave as it were. For example, when he was following VPB's votes onto Dunn and then to RTP, even though Datisi kept reitirating that he thought Italiano is scum. Another example is how he voted midway yesterday.

tl;dr
on wagon - midway > lotus > max >...> baltar
off wagon - dunn > elements > ?? cookie/andres ?? > green > momrangal

probably 1 scum on wagon but also not feeling confident enough in that theory to start steering there atm. also i get the notion that relying on going back / rereading is gonna be less effective than getting new info.

2231 from midway is giving me flashbacks back to 2180 when i was calling him out for doing nothing based on meta (i modded a newbie game where he was town and plenty active) and his response was something along the lines of "oh my playstyle changed haha" and he was just a scumfuck lol

other than that i feel like the post is not saying much at all and like
recent posts are promises of content, and lowkey filler while not really explaining his reads
also what i pointed out in 2062

yeah this is fine for now

VOTE: midway

Says he is not interested in voting on the Italiano wagon, suddenly when VPB shifts attention to midway, so does Datisi, for a very airy reason. He also suddenly began calling Dunn town after VPB backed down from him.

Essentially, he has no conviction behind his pushes, but rather is riding town's (namely VPB's) wave.

[RLotus]

I don't like RLotus' entrance today. I had RLotus as solid Town. I am beginning to waver on that a bit. Out of VPB and Datisi, VPB feels far more likely to strike Scum to me. So the overconfidence on Datisi does not look good.

I think you've got it backwards my friend

[RLotus]

Furthermore, VPB and Datisi are the constants on the two miselims, so it should be pretty clear why that's where we should look.

Also, I've stated this several times, but the relationship between VPB and Datisi has been strange. It doesn't seem natural that they wouldn't once waver on town reading each other or have even the slighest suspicion. I really think at least one of them has knowledge of the other's alignment.

[RLotus]

My initial theory like at the end of day 1 was that VPB/Datisi/BM were masons, due to the fact that it seemed VPB/Datisi seemed to be ignoring BM and vice versa. Now that I'm seeing Datisi as scum, I think that is a sign that Datisi/Momrangal are partners.

Other than that, I think Andre, VPB, and GC are town. DGB townish. Dunn I don't have a strong read either way, but I'm inclined to say Datisi and Dunn aren't partners due to that wagon at the beginning of day 2. So, that leaves Maxwell. Actually, Andre would make sense as a Datisi partner given his current behavior, but he seemed really damn town yesterday, so I dunno.

[RLotus]

VOTE: Datisi

[RLotus]

Actually, Andre would make sense as a Datisi partner given his current behavior, but he seemed really damn town yesterday, so I dunno.

You are not this bad.

Why should you be eliminated as possible partners with Datisi?

I think you are town still, largely because our thought processes are lining up almost precisely besides the fact that we are scum reading a different person in the Datisi/VPB dichotomy. But if one of maxwell or Momrangal flip town, I'm not certain where to look.

[RLotus]

Why should you be eliminated as possible partners with Datisi?

I am so obviously Town at this point it's frankly horrifying to me that you would, pre-flip, slot me as a potential Scum with the player that you are voting.

Yeah so am I, yet you said I'm potential scum for not agreeing with your tunnel on VPB. Whom, btw, there is absolutely no shot you pair me with VPB as scumpartners after that dogfight on day 1.

Pairing you with Datisi is a far more rational thing to consider.

[RLotus]

Who, btw, is far more likely to be Town than the other player in the obvious pairing that contains Scum.

Man, you are falling into the exact same tunnel I did on day 1. Yes, I get it, VPB's reaction to being pushed on is scummy. It makes you want to keep pushing on him and it made me want to keep pushing on him as well. I really think this is his town play.

[RLotus]

Yeah so am I, yet you said I'm potential scum for not agreeing with your tunnel on VPB. Whom, btw, there is absolutely no shot you pair me with VPB as scumpartners after that dogfight on day 1.

Pairing you with Datisi is a far more rational thing to consider.

Tunnel? Are you for real?

How can you possibly conclude that VPB is Town. Out of Datisi/VPB, what makes you so sure you are on the right side of it?

VPB has been up front trying to solve the game. Yes, he appears scummy when you push on him and he makes this big ruckus trying to discredit you. Look at a few of his town games. He seemingly does this every time he gets pushed. This is how he plays.

Yes, tunnel. Have you considered Datisi is the scum here? I sure spent a lot of considering if VPB is scum. Please reconsider for me, because I think Datisi is pulling the wool over our eyes here.

[RLotus]

VPB has been up front trying to solve the game.

I am going to need more detailed analysis and a comparison between Datisi and VPB for me to believe this is true for VPB and not Datisi. I am not just going to accept your blanket statement that this is the case.

I will get back to this tomorrow

[RLotus]

- that is how i play. that is literally how i play. i probe and ask questions. sometimes those questions don't go anywhere because the responses don't strike my gut either way. and that's fine, i've gotten suspected over that shit before. but here's the thing: why hasn't lotus done some meta research on me to see that? he was suspecting baltar, then he ~did some meta~, figured his behaviour lines up with his town!meta, ok nvm. so why isn't he doing it here?

I did actually and indeed you do question around a lot as town and scum. The difference being when you are scum you do the thing where you hook people into answering your questions, while as town I didn't ever see you do that in the few games I looked at. Not saying that explicitly must be scum, but no this behavior doesn't match your town game.

- "For example, when he was following VPB's votes onto Dunn and then to RTP, even though Datisi kept reitirating that he thought Italiano is scum." you know why i was doing that? (1) because people didn't seem that interested in italiano. i'm not a fool to keep my vote parked in places where i know it's not gonna go anywhere. (2) pressure is used to sort people. votes apply pressure. like i don't have to constantly have my vote on my strongest scumread, especially coupled with (1).

Ok fine if you didn't think Italiano was going anywhere, but you haven't pushed

any

of your own convictions. You wait to see a towny make a vote and then chime in with a vote and your reasoning. Even your eventual vote on Italiano, you had to see RTP vote there before hopping on yourself. Again I will back this up with quotes tomorrow, the game is quite long to comb through.

- yeah, i said it's more likely scum are off wagon than on and that i didn't feel like going there atm. then my scumread on midway got stronger bc he started acting the same way he did in his last scumgame where he handvawed my reasons away and then he was scum. i was not letting that slide. i love how my ~airy reason~ wasn't brought up at all yesterday while i was actually pushing midway

Yeah, that reasoning is very weak. Too weak to so suddenly change your mind like you claim it did. No, you changed your mind because VPB changed his mind.

ok i had like a thought and i'm not sure i like my dunn vote that much anymore. so first i'm gonna make a 9000 iq assumption that baltar/dunn aren't scum together. ok cool. so the fact that baltar is like, asking dunn to be more active, and dunn is plainly refusing to do that is giving me some sorta town vibes? like there's a Thing spelled out that he can do to have baltar see him in more positive light and he's purposefully not doing that?

2231 from midway is giving me flashbacks back to 2180 when i was calling him out for doing nothing based on meta (i modded a newbie game where he was town and plenty active) and his response was something along the lines of "oh my playstyle changed haha" and he was just a scumfuck lol

Your reasoning for flipping on dunn is just as weak. VPB has been calling Dunn scum for lurking all game. Dunn had continued lurking all game. Now, suddenly Dunn is town for that.

Tell me which scenario is more reasonable to you
A) Datisi happened to flip opinions on Dunn and midway in the same post (with weak reasoning that maybe he actually believes in?) and just so happened to come to those conclusions after VPB directed his attention from Dunn to midway.
B) Datisi changed his opinions to fit the push VPB was making and used flimsy generic reasoning to explain it.

The answer is so obvious.

[RLotus]

wow you got 2 scum GC

[RLotus]

VOTE: lotus

trash vote, I s2g I get OMGUSd everytime I push on someone. Italiano, VPB, andre, Datisi. Yep, every time.

also i love how in 2604 lotus is saying how baltar and i are constants on the two misyeets and therefore it's "pretty clear" we should be looked at when he was on italiano d1 and kept putting midway in his scumpool but gave some p weak reasoning to not jump onto him

Nope my reasoning was logical. My top 4 town were off the midway vote including myself, therefore there was likely scum on that wagon. Therefore, midway was likely town.

andres' entrance today feels really genuine and i feel like he's far too tunnelled. but also getting some vague paranoia he and lotus are coming out today each pushing one of me/baltar.

Why why why is this scummy? You think we should ignore the people on both Italiano's and midway's wagon? The fact that you aren't the least bit suspicious of VPB STILL is shocking. This is the natural place to look, this is not a scummy push.

Yeah, this is not a solving perspective whatsoever. Please tell me you guys see this.

[RLotus]

still think baltar is town. this still feels like his town!meta.
green also feels like town, plus the fact cookie died makes me think he's less likely to be scum.
momrangal is probably town, however i've heard that battle mage's scumgame is actually Not Shit, so should probably look at that to see if his entrance really was out of his scumrange.
andres' entrance today feels really genuine and i feel like he's far too tunnelled. but also getting some vague paranoia he and lotus are coming out today each pushing one of me/baltar.
dgb needs to contribute more, and i've talked about its voting patterns yesterday.
not liking maxwell's unvote from midway for reasons that were ??? to me.
dunnstral has some q's to answer from yesterday, still feel like he could easily be scum.

Even in this little reads list, there is no substance, still, 3 days in. "this feels like his town meta" "this feels like his scum meta" lolOMGUS lotus. Pretty much the summary of how Datisi is solving this game.

[RLotus]

I'm not sure how not liking the neighbor target from GC leads to a vote on Datisi?

I’m heavily implying that I think the Scum Team is the neighborhood, and that GC is not a Neighborizer at all.

I’m sorry but the obvious target for a Neighborizing action was me. When that didn’t happen, I thought it was odd, but figured maybe they targeted RLotus or maybe even you since you backed out from maxwell. Momrangal? There’s absolutely no way Green Crayons in good conscience thinks that’s a reasonable target. Unless they wanted to make sure that the target was alive which is doubtful since we had a claimed Doctor.

That thought crossed my mind as well, that maybe the neighborhood is the scumteam, but like, the scum team just gets outed tomorrow if that's the case. No way GC does that right?

[RLotus]

That thought crossed my mind as well, that maybe the neighborhood is the scumteam, but like, the scum team just gets outed tomorrow if that's the case. No way GC does that right?

If they think we’re tunneled enough that VPB dies while they insist that VPB is Town, and then they push Dunn? I think they may have thought it’s totally likely we self-destruct here.

If nobody claims neigborized tomorrow we will know that GC is fake and if that is the scum team they have no one else to fake neigborized. You get me?

[RLotus]

That thought crossed my mind as well, that maybe the neighborhood is the scumteam, but like, the scum team just gets outed tomorrow if that's the case. No way GC does that right?

If they think we’re tunneled enough that VPB dies while they insist that VPB is Town, and then they push Dunn? I think they may have thought it’s totally likely we self-destruct here.

If nobody claims neigborized tomorrow we will know that GC is fake and if that is the scum team they have no one else to fake neigborized. You get me?

Unless they target the person executed. Or claim to be RB’ed. There’s ways around it.

True true

[RLotus]

The third is DGB or dunn then

[RLotus]

The third is DGB or dunn then

You just said it wasn't likely to be me a few hours ago.

Well it's not maxwell so

[RLotus]

Or Datisi just chose VPB who he was buddied with and his two partners, so it is good in any scenario. Can't really fault GC for that.

[RLotus]

- what does "hook people into answering questions" even mean? like i demand answers to q's i have in my town games i'm p sure?

Not in the games I looked at

i have reads, accusing me of not having them is nonsensical, especially considering you were a strong proponent of "datisi is solving".

I didn't say you don't have reads a I said you aren't pushing them. Playing the background and following town like that is scummy especially when you are a part of the 2 mislims and the RTP wagon and the Cookie Monster wagon.

i'm not gonna start a fresh wagon on italiano if there's no chance of it succeeding. but an influential person i'm townreading is voting there? yeah i'm gonna vote there.

That one instance in solitary isn't scummy, but rather it is scummy that most of your votes this game have been like that.

- like what i said was "assume baltar/dunn aren't s/s. baltar's been pushing dunn, then he backed off him, and gave him an obvious hint as to how to appear more town to him. dunn did not do what baltar told him to do. that implies dunn doesn't actually care to look good, which is a trait more often seen in town."
- and what you're spitting at me is "suddenly dunn is town for lurking"

Dunn has been lurking all game. VPB has been calling him scum for lurking all game. It has been pretty obvious that what Dunn should do to make VPB town read him is to stop lurking. Why is it just after VPB started to back off Dunn that you begin to call Dunn town for this? You see how the logic from you doesn't flow here?

- also again. the aftermath from baltar changing his mind on dunn is what made me rethink too. like ooh it was after baltar changed his mind. yeah exactly lol

Ok well it is scummy. Especially since you have been mimicking VPB for a large portion of the game.

- maybe don't make trash pushes? also you obviously don't think omgusing is scum!indicative since you're not pushing anyone else on that list (and one of them flipped town) so is there a point to this post other than throwing shade?

My push on you isn't trash, it is the natural place to look. Your position and VPB's position are scummy based on the flips. The fact that you think my push on you is trash and that you aren't questioning your read on VPB makes you look even more scummy. You don't have a reason to think I am scum other than the fact that I am pushing you (a towny place to push), that is why your vote on me is bad.

Also I am just obvtown at this point

re 2656: ah yes because a quick readslist to give the game a sense of where i am rn is the epitome of substance and scumhunting

You have been giving similar reads to this before

[RLotus]

"It's not scummy that's just my playstyle." Ok.

m8 have you looked in the mirror? you've been screaming that italiano was scum on day 1, and midway was very much within your poe. also i'm questioning my read on baltar. and he keeps getting out town. he's putting in effort, his reactions seem natural and the way he played in the last game we were in, the way he was pushing the game yesterday to keep producing content is townie. idgaf about where he was on or off wagon if his thoughts are coming from a genuine place. like why should i be buying the pocketing stories here exactly? also my dude, your reasoning is like. bad. and you're very much not obvtown.

You're just wrong about this. You are blatantly scum so whatever

[RLotus]

Like Datisi, if you are town and you genuinely think VPB is town, you have to realize that you two are a big force in constantly pushing the game in the wrong direction. You should be looking at the people playing along with the two of you. Not me, who has been actively resisting your pushes. I hard defended RTP, Duchess, vocally opposed midway. The position you are taking is bad. Like, seriously?

This is why I just can not believe you have a solving mindset atm.

[RLotus]

I'm not sold on maxwell and GC being town.

I had maxwell in my earlier solve. But I think Town is somewhat underpowered without what I think their role is, which is why I’m thinking they’re somewhat clear. I also think that the paranoia surrounding GC that RLotus and I expressed earlier could have easily resulted in a push for GC’s head. Unless maxwell and GC are aligned, does maxwell at this stage have much of an incentive to do that? They could have said absolutely nothing, and GC could theoretically have been pushed to execution. If GC is Town, at that point we’ve probably lost.

If maxwell and GC are partners I think maxwell's play doesn't make sense. For one, maxwell only said he can confirm GC as neighborizer and not his alignment, which in no way clears him, so even if GC was in danger (which I don't think he was in immediate danger) that play from Maxwell is not guaranteed to save him. Furthermore, if GC and maxwell are both indeed fake, then surely there is at least one more PR or even two. If that/those PRs claim, then things get messy for them.

[RLotus]

In my mind Max, lotus, Andre's makes the most sense. Max's play is as I already described but the way they defend GC is pretty top tier scum play especially if they are shutting down a theory that scumbuddy Andre's is pushing.

This is the most paranoid world I ever saw

[RLotus]

For one, maxwell only said he can confirm GC as neighborizer and not his alignment, which in no way clears him, so even if GC was in danger (which I don't think he was in immediate danger) that play from Maxwell is not guaranteed to save him.

This is true, but looking at the context and how maxwell came out with it, at the very least it stops bad arguments against Green Crayons. And you have to admit that maxwell succeeded in that.

Yes but even still there are scum reads of GC floating around

[RLotus]

also i love how in 2604 lotus is saying how baltar and i are constants on the two misyeets and therefore it's "pretty clear" we should be looked at when he was on italiano d1 and kept putting midway in his scumpool but gave some p weak reasoning to not jump onto him

This is a legitimate criticism of you Lotus. I think you're a little rose-colored glasses on your play around those folks, particularly Italiano.

Sure, with Italiano that is fair, I was wrong on him day 1, and I was on the wrong side of that argument. With midway he was in my limpool sure. I wasn't out here advocating for him to be killed like I had with Italiano and day 2 when he had momentum against him I vocally advocated that midway is probably town. I was on the wrong side of one town wagon and opposed to every other one.

Compare that to yourself and Datisi who were driving forces in

every single town wagon

. Yes, it is very clear you two should be looked at. It boggles my mind that Datisi isn't seeing this.

[RLotus]

In post 2746, RLotus wrote:
Like Datisi, if you are town and you genuinely think VPB is town, you have to realize that you two are a big force in constantly pushing the game in the wrong direction. You should be looking at the people playing along with the two of you. Not me, who has been actively resisting your pushes. I hard defended RTP, Duchess, vocally opposed midway. The position you are taking is bad. Like, seriously?

This is why I just can not believe you have a solving mindset atm.

i love how the fact you were a huge proponent of scum!italiano on day 1 is left out here. also, saying that i'm not looking at those players is false. i'm trying to interact with them and get stuff out of them. just because my vote is currently on you and i'm forced to reply to the shit you're throwing at me doesn't mean you're the only person i'm looking at? and framing it so is like, not very correct?

still think baltar is town. this still feels like his town!meta.
green also feels like town, plus the fact cookie died makes me think he's less likely to be scum.
momrangal is probably town, however i've heard that battle mage's scumgame is actually Not Shit, so should probably look at that to see if his entrance really was out of his scumrange.
andres' entrance today feels really genuine and i feel like he's far too tunnelled. but also getting some vague paranoia he and lotus are coming out today each pushing one of me/baltar.
dgb needs to contribute more, and i've talked about its voting patterns yesterday.
not liking maxwell's unvote from midway for reasons that were ??? to me.
dunnstral has some q's to answer from yesterday, still feel like he could easily be scum.

I don't see much difference from your opinions yesterday. Where have you re evaluated?

[RLotus]

wow you got 2 scum GC

Slight detour. Does this strike you as weird from your perspective Lotus?

I know we talked about this a bit already, but what are the odds that GC would neighborize two people who you find very scummy? I will say that I find the momrangal choice weird from both Datisi and then GC on the follow up.

I don't think Andres was the OBVIOUS ONLY CHOICE or anything silly like that, but he certainly could have been a better neighborize than momrangal or DGB if the goal, as I believe it was stated, was to make a soft masons 'hood.

Datisi was a fine choice. I myself thought Datisi was very towny at that point.

Momrangal was a bad choice, but after he clarified that Datisi gave him that selection of you, Momrangal, and DGB, I don't think it was a bad choice.

[RLotus]

i'm not saying it's "just paranoia", like i'm not stupid i see my pushes have flipped town and why that would be suspicious.

Your play does not reflect this whatsoever.

[RLotus]

Speaking of which, Lotus, can I ask you how you feel you've played this game? Like I"m thinking about all the people you say have OMGUSed you, and by your own measures, only one of those people are scum. That feels like a lot of hard pushing on town players. You've agreed with andres that I'm fucking up because of bad pushes (which I don't disagree with), but your own pushes have been bad too, right? What makes you so confident this time?

Yes I made incorrect pushes, but I am able to see when I am wrong and my world view is constantly shifting. I softened on Italiano and flipped my read on both you and andre.

Compare this to Datisi who has continually been wrong. His world view should have crumbled by now, yet his view has not notably shifted. He's still got pretty much the same town block as yesterday.

Why am I confident? Because the game state is much clearer and people's behavior is more fleshed out. Obviously day 1 it is going to be much harder to find someone being explicitly scummy. I believe Datisi scumminess is apparent.

[RLotus]

Spoiler:

Post 871 is interesting. I think it favors RLotus town. he's openly musing about whether two other players already know each other's alignment.

if RL!scum, then he knows their alignment and presumably they are not s/s (otherwise... just why point that out?). So maybe he's trying to push suspicion for interactions without a flip? But that should rightly go nowhere until a flip, and then (presuming t/t) would definitely go nowhere. plus we all get to yell at him for trying to make associative calls before a flip, and his reads might take a hit in credibility. bad for RL!scum.

Now if Baltar/Datisi is s/t, maybe it's a long-term backup strat if the s gets flipped? Maybe.

My other thought is that maybe RL!scum would be trying to signal to scum a potential t/t connection (mason, etc.)--but all PTs have daytalk, so no need to signal in thread.


not impossible for RL!scum to make 871, but think it more likely points to town just because I don't know what it gets RL!scum and seems to be more negative.

What I'm noticing with VPB is that he seems to be sitting by and looking for mis elims where he can get them, whilst being non committal to his reads (except Dunn), as if to avoid looking bad when they flip town.

There are certainly a couple of posts that are gauging interest on different players (not all of them, i'm not sure why you grouped some of these posts with others), but isn't your theory scum AI only if all of those players are actually town? So I'm not sure how you get that point at this stage.

Also,

After rereading IVD, maybe I was being unfair at a couple points. I can't say I town read him exactly, but I'll give him breathing room and keep evaluating there

UNVOTE:

Yeah I’m feeling VPB today

VOTE: VPB

What changed here?

Umm I suppose he could throw one of his partners in there as well. The behavior looks bad + his lack of solving effort. I'm not necessarily trying to put the whole puzzle together at this point, as it were.

fair enough on not trying to solve, but it was an initial problem that came to mind when i read his posts with my Baltar!scum goggles on

i'm not seeing the AI that can be gleaned from taking these posts altogether. several posts are him having conversations about game events/players, which is productive even if not in itself AI. there's a couple of "what do you think about X" posts, which isn't damming but certainly would be if that was the majority of his play.

i hear you on him not really leading the charge on folks outside of Dunn, but i'm not seeing how that's AI when he's got these side conversations about other players/events. doesn't seem to be a lack of solving effort in my view, just that you read his effort as suspicious.

You are taking advantage of the scumreads other people have rather than solving the game on your own. The easiest example to see is your absolute lack of progression of RTP. You kinda just were not talking about them then suddenly you scumread them after BM puts a vote there. Also, you looked willing to do the same with elements and myself. That's what is scummy.

I'm curious: did you have problems with Baltar's play before his RTP vote, and that was the last straw and so you laid out this case against Baltar, or did his RTP vote bother you so you went to go back and look to see if there was something suspicious about his play, and that's when you saw these problems that led to your long post?

Initially, I read these side questions/him pushing people from the side as towny. It wasn't until his interactions with BM did I realize that he kept poking at slots without trying to solve them.

i'd do elements today if we could get a majority

I'm listening. What are you seeing?

Also is dunn at E-1 now?

there is a distinct lack of progression in RLotus' ISO. Started with townreads on RTP and Duchess...and they remain the top 2 townreads. and has been only really focussed on Italiano since a few days ago.

I have been thinking this as well. It is very one dimensional.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RTP

Down2Clown

This series of posts in particular

Seeing these again, I agree that these three posts you quoted here *are* weird. I can see the theory that this is Baltar!scum trying to gin up a mis-elim by making someone else (BM) take the lead.**

But I don't see that in his earlier play, including the other posts you have quoted. So I don't agree that there's a unified presentation of Baltar!scum play in trying to get others to take the lead to a mis-elim.

**BM came into this game as super-town, though. And BM doesn't really get controlled, so I doubt Baltar was going to nudge BM somewhere he didn't want to go. So I'm not too hot on this theory actually fitting this situation.

I think these posts make GC seem very towny after I started seeing VPB town. He was trying to bring two people he thought were town together and I don't see much reason for him to do this as scum.

[RLotus]

RLotus Green Crayons is not very Towny. If they were, RTP would not have suspected them. And you can’t get away from all the bad votes. Some discussion around two slots is not good enough to outweigh all of that.

I mean koba expressed a scum read on virtually everyone

[RLotus]

RLotus Green Crayons is not very Towny. If they were, RTP would not have suspected them. And you can’t get away from all the bad votes. Some discussion around two slots is not good enough to outweigh all of that.

I mean koba expressed a scum read on virtually everyone

GC was the strongest read they had tbf, but still I'm not going to call someone scum for a read koba had day 1.

[RLotus]

Who should be scum in my perspective?

Certaintly not maxwell, at the very least.

[RLotus]

Momrangal, do you see how it seems lazy that you take the three players scumreading you and call them scum? Especially when one just claimed PR.

[RLotus]

Dunn
VPB believed that I was scum despite subbing into a slot he believed to be town
Datisi thinks I'm probably town but still needs to be sorted

The only people I haven't really engaged with was lotus, DBG, and midwaybear

Dunn has not called you scum

VPB had you hard town until today, but even today he hasn't explicitly called you scum, but rather says he is considering the possibility you are scum.

[RLotus]

I've been on Andres' tail since I repped in and hes doubled down on me the more I start to elaborate on that scum read. That doesn't seem weird to you?
Not only that, he keeps stating that I'm not trying to engage with him that I'm not trying to sort him, just trying to "prove I'm right" and he keeps backing away from any engagement that i try to have with him

Ok, well, can you explain to me why you think Andre is scum?

[RLotus]

No body else scum reads him. I need to move heaven and earth to even get everyone else to even somewhat consider him and he keeps throwing out how "NOBODY WHOS TOWN SHOILD SCUM READ ME HERE"


Pedir: I've done nothing but explained that

Is it just the thing where you think he is tunneling?

[RLotus]

Momrangal, the thing is Andre has had a broad perspective this game. He went hard on VPB, but as a part of a read he had on the whole game, that one of {Datisi, VPB} must be scum because how they pushed on town. Even when he is making a push he'll throw in reasons he could be wrong or give an alternate world. Like you just saw it how he thinks it may just be all the lurkers.

Essentially, what you are excusing him of is not true.

[RLotus]

We should really mass claim before considering GC as an elim, imo

[RLotus]

Why am I such a threat?

No one else suspects you.

You are making it hard to find you town making these accusations.

[RLotus]

Compare that to yourself and Datisi who were driving forces in

every single town wagon

. Yes, it is very clear you two should be looked at. It boggles my mind that Datisi isn't seeing this.

is "driving force" something more than just votes from VD elimination?

I was referring to VD, midway, RTP, and Cookie Monster. As VPB stated it may be a bit of an exaggeration to call them a driving force on VD, but you get the gist.

[RLotus]

Why does GC take this postion against andre as scum when so many are town reading him? I feel like he is just digging a deeper hole for himself.

You have points about him voting wrong and not putting a lot of his own pushes into the game, that is totally fair and I can see him possibly being scum. I just don't feel great about this.

[RLotus]

In post 2822, RLotus wrote:
I don't see much difference from your opinions yesterday. Where have you re evaluated?

> arguing with you and trying to figure out if your points are bullshit or not
> trying to pull something out of dgb and dunn
> getting momrangal to explain her positions
> "where have you reevaluated?"

So you are completely wrong the past 2 days and you say hm I will poke and prod around. As opposed to, I don't know, looking at how the game has gone and trying to solve the game and find where you went wrong. Get out of here

My point is self evident and yet you keep being dense in your responses to me.

[RLotus]

And I think Momrangal is probably just bad Town this game.

I don't know. It is clear they are out of touch with the game, whether they are town or scum. I've also lost confidence in them being scum. But is it possible they use the fact they aren't in touch with the game as a scum defense? It's not impossible in my opinion.

[RLotus]

Official Vote Count 3.02

Morris Mechanic Theater, Baltimore

---

Elimination

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to eliminate someone.


Green Crayons (2): Andresvmb, VP Baltar
VP Baltar (1): DrippingGoofball
Datisi (1): RLotus
RLotus (1): Datisi

Not Voting

(4): maxwell, Green Crayons, Momrangal, Dunnstral

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-03-31 19:39:15).

Mod notes:

[/area]

I feel like there have to be scum not voting here.

My strong town are Andre, VPB, and maxwell, so yeah there has to be at least one not voting

[RLotus]

lotus did come out the gate pretty certain on mom being scum, no? and he didn't falter on it, but also never showed any support to max with a mom wagon. if it turns out i got roped into a 2-scum neighborhood, i'm gonna be pissed lol

I did falter on it in a conversation with andre

[RLotus]

If Green Crayons flips Scum, unfortunately it probably means RLotus is Scum. I would flip RLotus immediately after flipping GC if GC is Scum. Why? Well, based on all of the pushes and what we’ve seen this game, maxwell wouldn’t make sense as a Partner for GC. I’m fact, the interactions between Green Crayons and RLotus do point to buddies, provided that GC is Scum. If GC is Town, RLotus is good most likely, and I’m going to sink into despair trying to convince myself that you’re Scum when you don’t feel like it anymore. I think in that situation I would put a hero vote down for Dunn and hope for the best.

I have also hard defended RTP, Duchess, Cookie Monst/Duchess, and midway when I felt they were the wrong places to go. This is just how I play. So why I am not just town with this logic? I even just dissuaded you from going for VPB at the beginning of the day. So why am I not partners with VPB?

You are looking at a very narrow segment of my gameplay and giving me partner equity with GC, when in reality I've been doing this to people I think is town all game. If GC flips scum, I am in fact still NOT scum.

[RLotus]

Again, it also fits with {GC, RLotus} Scum though doesn’t it? You saw that RLotus floated the question - why would Green Crayons go against you as Scum? You saw that today, right? Well, Mom went against me

yesterday and today

, yet RLotus didn’t actually say that about Mom too. You don’t think that’s interesting?

Yeah because it is blatantly obvious that they are out of touch with the game no matter their alignment. GC on the other hand is not and I presume knows what he was doing.

[RLotus]

I don't think Momrangal is aware of the gamestate enough to know how to position themself correctly, if they are scum, if you get what I mean.

[RLotus]

Lotus, what are your thoughts on what's been said about GC? Let's put away associatives and trying to solve the full game. You said earlier you didn't want to yeet GC without mass claim. Do you still feel that way?

Yes if there isn't another PR I think GC is probably town and if there is another PR well we would have to evaluate between GC and the other PR claim.

Yeah, like I said, you bring up good points about GC riding town wagons without putting much of his own into the game. It is very possible he is scum. It really just doesn't feel correct to me, though.

I am not going to try to hard dissuade you guys from this one like the others because there is definitely still doubt in my mind about GC and I could be wrong about Datisi. I still want datisi today really bad but it looks like that's not happening.

Thinking about it, it is quite frustrating that you think a GC green flip clears me town when RTP and Duchess flipping green really should have already done that but whatever.

[RLotus]

You are looking at a very narrow segment of my gameplay and giving me partner equity with GC, when in reality I've been doing this to people I think is town all game. If GC flips scum, I am in fact still NOT scum.

I think that’s where I’ll want to go if GC flips Scum, that’s the truth. Look I’m not infallible. I don’t want to pretend that I always know what I’m doing. But something about it would certainly feel right. I’m happy taking it one step at a time.

Explain why you think GC flipping green clears me, but RTP and Duchess do not.

[RLotus]

Town is so doomed

[RLotus]

You are looking at a very narrow segment of my gameplay and giving me partner equity with GC, when in reality I've been doing this to people I think is town all game. If GC flips scum, I am in fact still NOT scum.

I think that’s where I’ll want to go if GC flips Scum, that’s the truth. Look I’m not infallible. I don’t want to pretend that I always know what I’m doing. But something about it would certainly feel right. I’m happy taking it one step at a time.

Explain why you think GC flipping green clears me, but RTP and Duchess do not.

Because Scum don’t have to be on every bad push. And they can certainly defend some of the Town. They have to leave enough of a window to win, while staying away from the more obvious Town. If GC flips Scum, you would have been the only person today to directly address me and try and dissuade me from that course of action at a crucial juncture in the game. If you did that to Town, I’m happy locking you as Town. If you did that to Scum, I would feel compelled to flip you.

So I think I get what you mean defending GC here was more crucial than when I did it to RTP and Duchess, and therefor are alignments are apparently linked.

What about VPB? I think you changing your mind on VPB was a very crucial point in the game, Idk if we would end up here if you hadn't. So why is my alignment not linked to his?

[RLotus]

You really think a scum is going to constantly try to get in the way of miselims, like one or two I understand, but it seems like that is what I am constantly doing.

[RLotus]

I try to save you numbskulls from miselims over and over and can't get townread for it smfh

[RLotus]

What about VPB? I think you changing your mind on VPB was a very crucial point in the game, Idk if we would end up here if you hadn't. So why is my alignment not linked to his?

Defending Scum is far more incriminating than defending Town is clearing. They’re not comparable. You can sacrifice some slots on the Town side and make them hard to flip, and still win as Scum. It’s much harder to win if you let your buddies get executed.

If GC flips green I have defended another town, what makes it different from VPB that I am now clear town to you?

[RLotus]

You really think a scum is going to constantly try to get in the way of miselims, like one or two I understand, but it seems like that is what I am constantly doing.

I do think you’ve overstated your case on Italiano for example. That was the D1 mis-execution. And I don’t remember you standing in the way of midwaybear. In fact no one tried to stop that one as hard as I did.

I said I think midwaybear is town due to who was voting on him. I didn't argue and argue about like you did no.

Yes Italiano the one town I didn't defend. I am 8-1 or some shit, kill me now

[RLotus]

What about VPB? I think you changing your mind on VPB was a very crucial point in the game, Idk if we would end up here if you hadn't. So why is my alignment not linked to his?

Defending Scum is far more incriminating than defending Town is clearing. They’re not comparable. You can sacrifice some slots on the Town side and make them hard to flip, and still win as Scum. It’s much harder to win if you let your buddies get executed.

If GC flips green I have defended another town, what makes it different from VPB that I am now clear town to you?

Why don’t we wait to see what GC flips? I’m not trying to big brain everything.

It looks like were going to be in limlo whatever he flips anyway

[RLotus]

VP + GC is something I considered because of the way GC was trying to cool me off of VP. If VP is town, I think it is highly likely that GC is town.

I’ll give you an example right. You pushed VPB as Scum early in the game. Look at you here tying the alignments of GC and VPB together. Obviously you expect it to be more likely that VPB flips at that point (and it was, since you had laid out a solid case against VPB). This sort of thing gives you the necessary cover to project away from GC if your preferred execution at the time goes through and flips Town.

It was so blatantly obvious that VPB was never happening at that point with the resistance I was getting, you think I'm a mastermind or something.

[RLotus]

It looks like were going to be in limlo whatever he flips anyway

Huh?

If GC is scum I die then we are in limlo

[RLotus]

I guess it doesn't matter at this point we are either going to have to find the town in {Datisi, Dunn, DGB, Momrangal} or {Dunn, DGB, Momrangal} if GC flips scum and I die.

[RLotus]

i mean i disagree about maxwell being scum without green bc i don't see why scum!him jumps out to stop the momentum unless that's his own partner. the rest of your post seems correct.

i'm trying to think why i was decently town on green before, it was his play around italiano wagon d1 being kinda needlessly shitty as scum? and his argument against you yesterday? does that offset the rest of his play enough...

my *other* problem is that green might be a town power role, and i'm of the thought if nobody else claims pr, he could be clear. however, considering i just talked about the game where i cleared scum off faulty mech like that, i should probably shut the fuck up.

pedit: this is a response to 3006.

yeah ok. you sheeped me yesterday, i fucked up. i think you're town, i'll sheep you on this.

VOTE: green

i believe y-1.

He's doing it again, I can't believe he keeps getting away with it. So obnoxious

[RLotus]

Eh maybe that's stupid. I just hate when info dies.

He said his night 1 result is useless so I think we'll know his info when he dies

[RLotus]

max probably shouldn't claim, but leave it up to him to judge the situation i guess.

He's doing it again, I can't believe he keeps getting away with it. So obnoxious

what is the *it*?

Changing your read to fit VPB's and hopping on the wagon

[RLotus]

"datisi isn't reevaluating!!"
"ok so i think andres is town, he has a point that green isn't as towny as i thought, him flipping would help solve some other slots and also he has bad associates with my other scumread"
"datisi is just changing his reads to fit baltar's!!"

1. I believe I said it multiple times, from the end of day 2 to the start of day 3 your world should have crumbled yet your reads remained the same. It isn't that your reads are absolutely static. It is that your reads remained the same even after being completely wrong.

2. Yes you changed your read changed directly after VPB's read on GC did and have several times. Can you at least see what I mean about the timing of your reads in relation to VPB, even if those are genuine shifts in your mentality?

[RLotus]

(how has my solving throughout the game apparently been fake, esp as he was townreading me for it up until today, what tf does hooking people into answering mean)

I mistook your interviewer questioning as solving, you did appear to be solving.

Many times you ask someone a question that the answers seem unimportant that you reask when they don't answer. Not explicitly scummy, maybe you do this as town, I saw you do it a lot in a scum game and not in the town games. I read like three town games so it's not an extensive sample size. I think this could be your way of staying involved in the game without being controversial, if you will. Anyway, this isn't at all the core of my argument.

refused to say which of my games did he apparently look at

refused to say which of my games did he apparently look at

Mini Normal 2175 is a scum game I read. I cannot be bothered to go back through your town games (there's a lot) to remember which I read. I didn't draw any important conclusions about your alignment from them anyway, I don't understand why this is so important to you.

didn't seem to care that his hard town looked at his case on me, and came away with "idk datisi still town tho"

Why should I care?

also he was undermining his own wrong pushes/reads on town, while hyping up mine.

I already said it, I flipped my read on VPB and andre, ended up with midway town (it was never really a push with him he was just outside of my townblock), and I freely admit to being wrong on Italiano (I did soften on him, but did vote him in the end so moot point, I guess).

Anyways, I never was calling you scum for being wrong, but rather being wrong and refusing to re-evaluate coming into day 3. It's not like I'm sitting here saying town can't be wrong and therefore you are scum, that would be hypocritical and inconsistent with my VPB townread. So what even is this argument, you know?

[RLotus]

These inquiries feel very trivial in relation to what the core of my case is against you.

[RLotus]

Anyways, it doesn't really matter at this point. The GC flip is pending and Datisi's alignment should be obvious from that.

GC and Datisi probably aren't together as it wouldn't make much sense to neighborize your own partner first and that thing where GC gave Datisi 3 options to neigborize would be too elaborate act to do as partners. I would be very impressed, but I am very doubtful that is the case.

Momrangal is very towny imo for pointing that out. She would be more inclined I believe to leave the possibility of Datisi + GC open, especially given Datisi was townreading GC and maybe some paranoia could creep in there.

Basically, it is most likely Datisi/Dunn/DGB or GC/Dunn/DGB. Momrangal still needs to keep being evaluated of course, especially in a final 3 situation

[RLotus]

The {Dunn, DGB, Momrnagal} are voids of content so it might get sticky in e-lo situations

UNVOTE:

Vote is still on GC in spirit. I want to hear from Lotus and Dunn before we end this day.

I'm still fine with a GC vote

VOTE: Midwaybear

Cookie is useless, mwb is scummy, dgb and predecessor are weird, GC is scummy

Andres, mom, Datsi feel town

I will say Dunn's vote on midway (who was an obvious slot to target on the Italiano wagon) and read of GC (who, if scum, they would want to distance from at this moment) seem like political stances rather than genuine solving efforts. If GC flips scum that's definitely where I look first. Probably if Datisi flips scum too tbh.

[RLotus]

VPB, andre, and I are the only slots giving a sense of urgency in needing to solve today from what I've gathered. Given town's bad situation I feel the three of us + maxwell should be the working townblock going forward, but I get the sense that most don't agree with including me in there, so whatever.

With that said, if GC flips scum and I am a prime suspect I ask that I get elimmed before we get to limlo, because me + Datisi in limlo is auto loss for town.

I see it basically the same thing anyway. We have to hit both scum in two shots either way.

[RLotus]

Oh and one more random thought. If GC flips scum you can pretty much throw out his wagon, because andre said he was voting me immediately if GC flips scum, or something to that degree with some other's agreeing. Mafia kind of get a free pass to limlo even if GC is scum, so this is the freest bus ever.

[RLotus]

i've already responded to your case against me earlier. and it's not about them being the core of your case or not, it's about those tidbits being things i think are more likely to come from scum

Ok very cool

"why should i care", is that a serious question lol? why town!you should care about the fact that your hard towns are still townreading the player you're sure is scum and who you're apparently trying to get yeeted?

Well I don't so

[RLotus]

Void of information despite having 81 posts in the last two weeks I was apart of this game.

I didn't mean to be cutting, but I feel like you don't have a full series of pushes and evolution of reads to read from like other's that have been here all game.

[RLotus]

If this flips town and VPB or Andre are scum we probably lose yeah, otherwise I believe we have a chance

[RLotus]

Mom doubting here probably confirms them as Town, and I wouldn’t turn against RLotus. maxwell as the wild card.

Why does that confirm them as town?

[RLotus]

The scrambling between Dunn and midway may also be quite illustrative. I might revisit that.

When did this happen?

When maxwell started developing second thoughts about midwaybear and wanted to move back to voting for you.

dgb also

[RLotus]

I don't think it's elements/dgb slot off the top of my head

Maxwell needs to claim his role tomorrow

who then?

[RLotus]

so I can see how you could think it’s me.

That's a new one.

[RLotus]

I don't think it's elements/dgb slot off the top of my head

Maxwell needs to claim his role tomorrow

who then?

My poe makes me think max is one

Can you give your poe?

[RLotus]

I don't think it's elements/dgb slot off the top of my head

Maxwell needs to claim his role tomorrow

who then?

My poe makes me think max is one

Can you give your poe?

Some of it depends on this flip

I don't really think it's andres, or mom

I don't think datisi/GC are both scum together; if this is town I can see datisi being scum easily

vpb I've been trying to avoid going for, it's a maybe but probably not

I'm coming around on dgb/elements being town

I don't see a reason to townread max here so I'm getting suspicious regardless of the claim (which is not specified and easily fakeable)

Hm maybe all 9 of us are town

[RLotus]

VPB is the only candidate I see of "trapping andre into GC" since they were questioning him heavily. You were the fire starter for most of the day anyway I reckon, that's a pretty paranoid line of thought

[RLotus]

The Scum definitely think about these things. It’s either closest to solving/PR/best player to help craft future pushes.

I thought about the RTP kill too because I was sure Datisi or VPB were dying. I also realized GC totally makes sense making that kill but Datisi does also because RTP/VPB were the towniest towns and they want VPB alive obviously.

[RLotus]

thinking Andres and Dunn

tbd on (Baltar, Datisi). Maybe one of them. I separately had problems with Datisi's midway push, which I think I've resolved after having reviewed twice now & discussed in neighborhood iwth Datisi and mom; but it still has lowered my estimation of him. i need to read rather than skim Lotus's case.

If not (Baltar, Datisi), maybe maxwell but his claim might clear him.

I think Lotus, DBG, mom are town.

UNVOTE:

Vote is still on GC in spirit. I want to hear from Lotus and Dunn before we end this day.

I'm still fine with a GC vote

Distancy vibes, my best guess is Dunn, I really wouldn't lock him town at the very least

[RLotus]

There was talk about potential pocketing and so I permitted Datisi to select three candidates and I would actually choose.

Idk why you think there is one between Datisi and I. If GC and Datisi did this as partners they are psychopathic, I doubt it

[RLotus]

I'm probably the right kill today bc I don't expect to be able to convince Datisi that I'm town

It's 2 of {Dunn, DGB, Momrangal} might be tough. Another thing is GC seemed to avoid talking about Dunn much in Datisi's recap of the hood.

If it's Datisi, VPB, or Andre it's probably lost at this point

[RLotus]

I think Lotus, DBG, mom are town.

So you think GC is just going to town read all his pontential partners on his deathbed?

[RLotus]

meh

[RLotus]

It's not like GC made a huge effort to get Dunn killed. Yeah he voted on him at the beginning of day 2 which is usually a pretty safe time to bus. But after that?

I don't get why you are eliminating the possibility of bussing going on.

[RLotus]

I think the Scum came out with a plan to stop pushing the obvious Town, and try to get us to split onto say a less obvious Town player. Because RLotus probably knows that they’re not winning a 1v1 with Datisi after the GC flip. Push came to shove, I would firmly expect RLotus to get executed there. So they probably have realized they need to build a case against a player with a smaller presence.

What DGB is doing is HORRIFIC in my eyes.

If I'm scum my partner 100% should be bussing me

[RLotus]

We’re not executing Dunn. Over my dead body. The more you argue for it, the more it convinces me you’re Scum.

I am trying to tell you to stop locking Dunn town for tomorrow/the next day.

You can think I'm scum all you want, I am the best kill for today either way

[RLotus]

meh

I thought you were fine with being yeeted today?

That was in response to what andre was saying about dunn

[RLotus]

Look I'm not saying I have confidence that Dunn is scum lol. I am saying to not let him get by in the future days because of his and GC's interactions.

GC did indeed put Dunn at e-1 at the beginning of Day 2. However, it was the beginning of the day. It seems like the safest time to put your partner at e-1. Dunn of course gets some point for that, but I truly do not believe that is enough to clear Dunn.

Looking back, GC's push on Dunn was pretty light. He did some questioning and indeed made it clear he thought Dunn was scum. But, he never made a concerted effort to get Dunn killed, he wasn't out for blood or something. In fairness, he was pretty passive after day 1. I'm just saying this push I do not believe is enough to call Dunn town with.

In fact, looking through GC's iso, I can't find one instance where he explicitly stated that Dunn is his preferred kill. This push is super weak to be clearing him for.

Look at the spot where GC voted midway. Midway was at 4 votes and Dunn was at 3 votes. Curiously, GC decided to vote for midway, even though Dunn was a clear alternative at that time and he had kept talking about how he read Dunn scum. Actually, this is probably the best evidence against Dunn that I see.

[RLotus]

Ah that was hammer, I am indeed town

[RLotus]

DGB was also one that switched from midway to dunn, so maybe that is also evidence that they are not together

[RLotus]

so I guess Momrangal is always scum then if DGB and Dunn aren't together

[RLotus]

Gg y’all, that neighborhood theatre was so sick, that deserves a win by itself.