Mini 630: Council of Eville: Game Ovah!
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I know Rage's question kind of stole the spotlight a little bit, but did anyone else find it curious that we have a mini-bandwagon with 3 "random" votes on the same person?Dean Harper wrote: Skillit - (3) Gojira, cerebus3, joonsterOn a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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When you reference your random vote and say "vote stays" then, as far as I'm concerned, that vote becomes a real vote for real reasons. Alvinz95's entire defense has hinged on the fact that he was playing around and wasn't serious. I haven't really seen anything else of substance in his defense. Here's the thing though.. In this game, EVERYTHING you say is serious and meaningful. Claiming it's not is a poor defense and not one I buy.alvinz95 wrote:
*slaps head*goat wrote: My goal is pretty obvious. I don't like your defense period, and I'm pursuing you because I think you're scummy.
Also, I don't buy the "comment" rather than accusation of scumminess. Saying someone's vote is opportunistic implies that it was scummy, because opportunistic votes have a connotation of being something scummy. Then you confirmed your vote on a player being legitimately wagoned after saying that the person voting for him was opportunistic.
I want everyone to answer these questions. Do you think alvinz's comment that StrangerCoug's vote was opportunistic and then comment that he's confirming his vote on rage to be odd? Do you buy his explanation that it was just a meaningless post and not anything serious?
I'll say it again. I don't like you downplaying everything I say simply because your post happened during the random phase. Your post happening during the random phase doesn't mean that it automatically doesn't count and should be ignored. There was real discussion happening during that period, and your post contained real discussion, that you're now trying to play off as simply useless banter (which I don't buy).
Of course, if you don't buy anything in this game, you'll get no where. This whole argument is based on you thinking it was serious, when it really wasn't to me.
Unvote, Vote: alvinz95
Also, re: SC's play.. I was in mini 601 with those two and his erratic comments and votes got him lynched in there. I'm not saying it's a good way to play, nor does it clear him as town. But it definitely is something to keep an eye on, but at least it's sort of consistent.
MOD: Can we get a vote count please?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I disagree. If he wasn't going to follow the vote "hopping" on Rage, he would've unvoted instead of insisting that his vote on Rage will stay. Could you explain your justification for the flawed logic here.Skillit wrote:
This translated to me asAlvinz95 wrote:This to me is opportunistic, vote stays thoughWhat Skillit [i]THOUGHT[/i] Alvinz95 wrote:Strangercoug, your vote hopping was kind of 'preying on something once it was proven to be weak' but im not going to follow you in vote hopping
That was a nice long post with a lot of quotes and summations, but very few actual thoughts from you. A long post with little content is pretty scummy.Skillit wrote:goat, does that about summ up what you point is?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I understand that your comment was what you THOUGHT he said. I'm not saying that you're lying, I'm saying that your thinking is flawed.
By saying that SC's vote is opportunistic, alvinz basically said that it's a bandwagon vote. By *insisting* that HIS vote stayed on that same bandwagon, he contradicts himself by remaining on that very same bandwagon he complained about.
So you're wrong if you think that calling a bandwagon vote oportunistic and that then insisting that your vote stays on that same wagon isn't also opportunistic and contradictory.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Rage, why would you unvote on someone who was only at 4 votes at the time to get a discussion going? Especially since your argument earlier in the post was against alvinz. To me, your unvote implies that you want a discussion about someone other than alvinz for no really good reason. And that's pretty suspicious.Rage wrote:Unvote
This unvote is to bring out more time for discussionOn a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Since SC usually followed Goatrevolt with his votes. Are you implying that you think GR is also scum?Styro wrote:Goat, I'm really just too lazy to find the stuff but as I read thru the game, there's more than one instance in which SC posted right after a case merely saying 'I agree'.
Scums often tattle because they know who the scums are and are too lazy to fake scumhunting.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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As time goes on, alvinz seems like an eager, overly defensive townie under unjust (in his eyes) pressure.Unvote
Rage, your actions have been inconsistant and very, very scummy. I willVote: Rage. Here's why.
1) Rage starts off the game by asking the name of the scum in this game. This earned him some early attention before being dismissed as inconsequential. In light of his later actions and my theory that he is scum, I submit that it was a poor attempt at playing a dumb townie to try and attack whoever replied with a suspicious suggestion.
2) He pulls off his early, non-random, "pressure" vote off of SC for no apparent reason as far as I can tell. He then votes for alvinz because he is being dismissive with his responses which, at the time, was a solid vote.
3) He unvotes alvinz in his very next post as a means of generating discussion, even though alvinz was in no danger of being lynched. I called him out on it at the time, so I won't go through it again. His excuse for this play was that he has a lot of games to keep track of, and that while alvinz seems "increasingly suspicious", he doesn't want to be on the wagon with people who share that line of thought. Which doesn't even make sense.
4) Then, after one empy post, he re-votes alvinz. However, THIS time his reasons are that he's likely an unhelpful townie, which is a poor play if you're a townie.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Nice post, sthar8. Some of your comments echoed my previously unvoiced suspicions (mainly on FL).
Cerebus, I did a quick re-read of your posts and it occurs to me that your vote for Rage seems to be based purely on the fact that it is the new bandwagon in town and hopping on it is the cool thing to do. Care to elaborate?sthar8 wrote:cerebus3: Nothing too scummy so far, but nothing to really clear you either.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly. FL spent a good portion of this day (and 10 days in real time) saying that she'll do a summary on everyone without really saying anything concrete in the process. Then in her analysis, she claims she'll likely vote alvinz only to vote skillit when she gets to him in her analysis. But that vote was well explained, so it's only a minor inconsistency. Her reply to sthar8's analysis post was basically "OMGUS, my post is better than your post". Not cool. In fact, you said that he made more noise with his post than you did. I disagree. He had to hastily go through the thread and post his analysis of the first three weeks of play, which he did within three days, while it took you nearly two weeks to do the same when the game could've been better served by your better analysis throughout the day instead. Also, and I just noticed this,sthar8 wrote:forbiddanlight: High noise to signal ratio.you completely left Megatheory off your summary and analysis. Whether on purpose or not is yet to be determined, but the fact is, it's not there and such a blatant omission puts the quality of everything you said under question.
QFE. This kind of flew under my radar. Thanks for mentioning it. As for SC in general, several people in this thread have played with him before (or checked out his meta) and the random skittish movements is how he plays. I can't say that it's a good way to play, but by itself, in D1 it's really a non-tell. His last two games that were cited earlier in the thread had him dying for the exact same style of play and in both games he turned up townie. Yes, he looks about as scummy as Rage for sort of the same reasons, but his history of poor plays gives him the tie-breaker for my D1 vote. He also became much more calm and reasoned after the initial fury of OMGUS comments.sthar8 wrote:StrangerCoug: The first independantly scummy action from you was your modkill fishing. Several people have commented that they see no potential scum advantage to such an activity, but to my eyes it is blatantly obvious. As scum, getting a townie modkilled serves your win condition admirably.
I actually thought the voting thing with Skillit and alvinz was pretty logical.. /shrug. As for the implication that goat was scum, that's not what I said. I was asking Styro (whom you replaced I believe) if HIS comment implied that goat was scum. I currently don't think that goat is scum.sthar8 wrote:veerus: Your case against Rage is weak on a few points, but his reaction is starting to validate it. I am concerned about two points of yours. The first was the false dilemma that Skillit reacted to so strongly, as it shows an odd lack of reasoning that doesn't mesh well with your examination of Rage. The second is your implication that SC's buddying to goat would somehow imply that goat was scum. If SC were looking for an easy case to follow, why would he want to leech off his scumparter?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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uhhhh what??StrangerCoug wrote:
There's no clear-cut answer. If I got caught fakeclaiming cop, for example, then waiting time between votes is irrelevant, but to be honest, you have to make a judgment call about it. The speed of the votes violated what I felt was acceptable given the circumstances.cerebus3 wrote:
Just for future reference, what is the requisite time I should wait before I vote someone for being scummy? Are you really saying that if I had waited say... 3 more hours, you would have accepted my vote?
Explain how my reaction to going from one vote to four in over an hour is unreasoned.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I was thinking the same thing. Forbiddan did all but actually vote with her comments. SC's vote is also quite a departure from his earlier stance of not voting for Rage. However he did change it for a valid reason. I, too, am curious as to why Rage changed his tone with SC's FOS when he wanted nothing but votes before.. but I guess we'll never know.Megatheory wrote:
Like what I said to Goat, did you forget the part where forbiddan claimed the hammer? This essentially makes your vote the hammer instead of hers.StrangerCoug wrote:So we have a doc and/or the Mafia decided not to kill anybody. I know I'm stating the obvious, but I'm throwing it out there.
Before I say anything else,vote: forbiddanlight. I hate the speed at which you hammered Rage, and you did not allow him the chance to explain his thinking when I put him at L-1. Denying the town information like you did is scummy.
I'd like to hear more from GhostWriter and Jshark, they were quiet in D1 and yet both managed to contribute to Rage's lynch. Also, sthar8's PBPA on forbiddan would be nice to see right about now as she is still one of my top suspects.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I'm kind of glazing over the whole skillit/FL argument. They have both been very verbose in this game with very little content, relatively speaking. FL's accusations, to me, are like the pot calling the kettle black.
Why what?forbiddanlight wrote:
why?
I'd like to hear more from GhostWriter and Jshark, they were quiet in D1 and yet both managed to contribute to Rage's lynch. Also, sthar8's PBPA on forbiddan would be nice to see right about now as she is still one of my top suspects.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Lotsa reasons. I originally stated the majority of my case against you in post 332, but I will reiterate them here.forbiddanlight wrote:Why am I one of your top suspects? And also, my verbosity is a bit different than skillits. I try not to hit you all upside the head with it at once. Since (most of) my posts are relatively concise, you can seperate out scum tells easier. This is much harder with skillit, and I can't help but feel that's intentional.
You spent nearly the entire day in D1 claiming you'd do a summary/analysis on everyone (despite you seemingly ALWAYS being at the computer). Then when you finally do it, you don't even do it correctly and fail to mention all the players.
Then you OMGUS sthar8's analysis where he (correctly) calls you out on the high noise to signal ratio. Sure you've improved since but it doesn't excuse your earlier behavior. By my rough count, going by sthar8's PBPA, nearly 40% of your posts were noise.
On top of that, at least half of your "signal" posts have been a part of a rather verbose exchange with skillit in which neither of you really have a good case on one another. In fact, judging by your posts, you've barely considered anyone else as scum, choosing instead to zero in on skillit and throw stones at him from your glass house. And no, your posts aren't really easier to read than skillit's despite your own claim that they are.
The only real departure from this tunnel vision came when you said that Rage seemed equally as scummy as skillit to you, based on nothing but my own reasons (which started the wagon rolling), and that you wouldn't be against his lynch. Then, at approximately the same time as you initially called the hammer on Rage, you also dropped this gem to cover your ass:
Despite being suspicious on its own merit, this statement is also inconsistant with your D2 actions as Rage did turn up town and yet you're still zeroed in on skillit.forbiddanlight wrote:Seriously, if Rage isn't scum, I think the scum are already on the wagon.
Amazingly enough, your rapid hammer on Rage is the least suspicious of your actions thus far mainly because you did claim it.. over, and over, and over... and over, and over again. While I personally clear you of the rapid hammer, others haven't. And I can't blame them since it was pretty clear that a lot of the people wanted more answers from Rage than they got.
In fact, as I read this, I can't really find many pro-town actions out of you all game.
Vote: forbiddanlightOn a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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How is this a bullshit point? You can't "defend" a point by simply saying that you did.forbiddanlight wrote:
YAY! BULLSHIT POINT! I WAS WORRIED YOU WERE AIRTIGHT! HAHAHA, Rage != skillit. The scumminess of one is NOT dependant on the scumminess of the other! I never SAID such either.
Despite being suspicious on its own merit, this statement is also inconsistant with your D2 actions as Rage did turn up town and yet you're still zeroed in on skillit.
(sorry, felt good to have a point I could defend)
Your statement specifically stated that if Rage isn't scum (which he wasn't), then scum are already on the wagon. At the time of that post cerebus3, megatheory and myself were on the wagon. Why haven't you quizzed any of us? Why are you so stuck on skillit?... don't answer that, I've seen your reasons.
Bottom line is that your statements and actions are contradictory.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I did... but he has so far agreed with my votes, so currently my point of view is kind of biased to really make a case out of it.forbiddanlight wrote:Ok, well, I completely missed this before, but has anyone ELSE noticed Cerb hasn't put much reasoning behind his suspicions and either gone on or prepared to go on pretty much every wagon in this game? I'm glad I relooked at him.
And cerebus, while it's a nice try given the recent discussion, I don't find FL's post here a deflection. As per earlier definition, she has stated her case and provided examples.
Around the time of your original vote, your posts, while high on noise, were more or less concise and to the point. You simply stated that skillit's posts were a lot of noise and not a lot of action -- something I actually agreed with. Currently your back and forth with skillit approaches the epic proportions of "War and Peace" and the reasons for your original vote on him have become just as valid for you.forbiddanlight wrote:veerus, how did I go from well reasoned to pot calling the kettle black?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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That's nice, but you still haven't posted anything of substance... It would be fair to everyone involved if you asked to be replaced out of the game if you can't continue.Jshark wrote:I'm really sorry guys, but I've been having a tough time keeping up and with being V/LA on the weekends I have had trouble finding my pace in this game. I don't want you to think I'm lurking and I stated I would post more and I fully intend to.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Can we bring the whole skillit/forbiddan epic novel to a close now? A case has been stated and answered. Let the others decide.
I personally think that skillit's posting style is to post his stream of conciousness, maybe proof read it, and click submit. FL seems to have zeroed in on that and keeps sticking to her guns because his posts are longer than hers. (no, not really, but this is my way of saying you don't have a case)On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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FL, if you're pro-town as you claim to be, why are you doing nothing but anti-town things? It's bad enough that Rage got lynched by inviting more votes on himself. Now you're doing the same thing. If you genuinly want to help the town win, you should unvote on yourself and help the town find scum by using logic and not emotion. We've seen nothing from 3 players in D2 all of whom were under some sort of suspicion at some point in the game so far. Why, as a townie, would you want to end the day so quickly and leave so many questions unanswered for the second day in a row? If you keep self-destructing like this, I won't even feel bad if you really do turn up town.
In the meantime,Unvote. I call FL's vote as my proxy vote. When she decides to play the game and not throw temper tantrums, I will revote. Or if I see sufficient information out of the three "lurkers" - alvinz95, GhostWriter and Jshark (or their replacements) that doesn't sway me from the current case on FL.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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For what it's worth, I've seen Goat's play in mini 601 (having started it and then following its developments after I got replaced) where his play was picture-perfect town and in the end he won the game as scum. But you just can't base your case on meta and "gut feelings".On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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For that precise reason, Goat and I have unvoted so she's at L-3 to give it more time as we wait for replacements.cerebus3 wrote: I would hammer but we are waiting for replacements on 2(?) people and megatheory needs to catch up, and SC has limited access right now. Is alvinz around now?
It feels like we are playing a 6 person game.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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forbiddanlight wrote:
I did at first. His response made me change my mind.Also, if you don't think cerebus3 is that scummy, then why did you vote him in the first place?
So which is it?forbiddanlight wrote:Good enough cerb. Just putting out some feelers. I knew as I was writing the case it wouldn't stand up.
mod: can we get an official vote count?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I disagree that we can lynch without hearing Jshark replacement's thoughts. We need the information now, not after the night kill. Along the same line of thinking, we need B&B's thoughts before we continue.
But while there's a lull as we wait for the players to catch up.. let's play devil's advocate.. what if FL is just a frustrated townie who just can't get any traction in her arguments and has all but given up? Who is your top suspect if she "flips" as she promises?
Why is SC so eager to lynch FL that he's even *confirming* his already placed vote? Will cerebus and goatrevolt examine anyone else besides FL in D2? Will skillit ever drop his time consuming argument with FL and consider the other 9 players in the game? And if he does, will he use an easier to read posting style? Will alvinz ever post his current thoughts on the game after not posting much of anything in over 3 weeks? Will we ever find a replacement for Jshark?... That's all I got.. megatheory & sthar8, don't feel left out.. it's just that I thought you weren't as one-tracked as everyone else seems to have been in D2 so far.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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That could be because nearly every other post in this thread is yours. With that absent, I could understand how the posting may seem light when you don't post. It is pretty obvious that the town has agreed on your lynch for today, if only in faith, and we're concentrating on other avenues while our replacement catches up.forbiddanlight wrote:Nyeh, I return. I'm ashamed of you all. You did not even a page in my absence. Am I seriously the only thing you can think of to talk about? Hell, might as well lynch me and get your heads out of your asses.
skillit: nearly every one of your epic posts has been a reply to FL's epic posts, so yes,thatargument.
alvinz: you are really stretching your arguments in a struggle to make a case onanyone. Your possible scum pairs don't seem to have any more evidence behind them than any other possible scum pair in this game. Your quotes are highly circumstantial and your reasoning for them is beyond comprehension (at least mine). Like your example of the exchange between SC and FL is nothing but pure speculation.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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The SC/FL exchanges that alvinz pointed out seem like speculation to me. The exchanges could just as easily be classified as throw-away dialogue between two random players.
B&B, hope to see your post soon. I think a lot of everyone's theories will hinge on FL's alignment however, as has been noted, it is in town's best interest to see your thoughts before that. I don't really have much to add to the current discussion of alvinz's SC/FL relationship as it's largely based on a theory of a theory.
mod: any luck w/ JShark's replacement?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Goat, I think these vibes are a direct result of your success. Looking at your meta, you play scum very well. For example, in the Cog City mini that a few of us here played I personally didn't really think you were scum the whole game which ultimately won the game for you. In a game where paranoia is the name of the game, can you really blame people for acting on perceived fear? I must admit, that if I had the deciding vote between you and someone else in LYLO, all things even, I'd have a hard time not using your meta as the tiebreaker.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Mod:I'm not sure if you are US-based, but we had a 3-day weekend and many people skip town as the last summer hoorah.. Can we also get a vote count, please?
Ok...forbiddanlight wrote:Fair enough. Veerus, return your vote to me. I'm taking your placeholder off.vote: forbiddanlight.. I still think you're the best play for the day.
SC.. you've gone from attacking FL pretty hard at the start of D2 to jumping on alvinz so eagerly you forgot to vote for him and went straight to confirming your vote on him. As far as I could gather, your problem with him is that he has tunnel vision on *you*... which is valid. But, I must say that your play was pretty suspicious from the start and he did focus on you from early on in D1. Your play was dismissed by most (myself included) based on your meta which isn't a full proof argument to begin with. Also your self-destruction gambit idea is awful. Haven't we seen enough of it already? First Rage, then FL, now you.. Really? If you're a townie, you'd be doing scum a favor. And if you're scum and you actually go through with it, then you'd be doing the town a favor. Either way, it goes against your alignment. I am also of the opinion that some interactions between you and FL have been very friendly... too friendly, which only lends alvinz's suspicions more credit.
As for alvinz's "you know" comment.. itcouldbe a slip.. but it just as wellcouldbe an emphasis on his confidence. Just like *I know* that lynching FL is the best play today. Not having a back-up plan isn't a valid argument either. Each new alignment revelation likely destroys more "card houses" than it strengthens. If you think too far ahead, you end up speculating too much and diluting the discussion with a lot of poorly reasoned arguments.
And, FL, I was going to call you out on hypocrisy but you did that all on your own. But..
I must mention this as another point against you in the long-running list of inconsistencies that were outlined in my initial vote.forbiddanlight wrote:It's completely trashing all the advantage we had from the doctor save. Is there ANY pro town reason for you to lynch yourself if you know you are town? And saying teaching alvinz tunnel vision fails isn't an answer since that's just being selfish in a way. You "HAVE" to be right. You do realize that by the end of the game everyone's role will be known and alvinz will be proven wrong or right then, right?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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If he's a cop, would he really claim this early in the game? I doubt it, especially since he already claimed vanilla. And you're really going out on the limb with your speculation here. IF alvinz95 is a cop (unknown) AND you're town (unknown), then surely the supposed cop's guilty readings on you are false (unconfirmed).StrangerCoug wrote:As for alvinz95 being cop, nowhere did I say he had to be sane. I just said he had to have a guilty on me if he really did know. If alvinz95 is cop and I am town, then he's either insane or paranoid.
Is there anything else that anyone would like to clear up?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I really hope the moderators of this message board ban you for such unneccesary behavior and language. I certainly would not want to play another game with you.forbiddanlight wrote:Well fuck all of you then.Vote for...
Just kidding.
MOD THAT IS NOT A VOTE!
Anyway, moving along, have fun losing town. Fucking up the doctor's advantage was the only thing you accomplished today. I hope you all die in a fire of false accusation
Go fuck yourselves. I'm done with this shit.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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This is a stretch. Everyone who's voting for FL obviously has reason to think she's scum. However, since this is the game of imperfect information, theories that hinge on her alignment may or not be correct. Just because not everyone has voiced their assumptions doesn't mean that no one else is thinking of them.Goatrevolt wrote:I don't like this paragraph one bit. First of all, I'll start with this part:
Alvinz is the only person who has really pushed any theories about who is scum with Forbiddan. I mentioned possibilities, and BaB mentioned something about me fitting, but neither of us really pushed those at all. In other words, the only person pushing theories whatsoever about who is scum with Forbiddan is Alvinz.At this point, though, a good number of the theories being discussed assume you to be scum, and we can't act on any of them until after you're dead.
How did I get thrown into this mix? This is the first time I've seen you mention me and you don't even bother to back it up.Goatrevolt wrote:So at this point I find Sthar8 to be the scummiest. BaB I still also think is scum, and my best guess at a 3rd suspect would be Veerus. I liked Rage's analysis on Cerebus/Veerus in 806. Forbiddan I'm not sure on, but I think if Sthar/Veerus end up being scum it would mostly clear her and at the moment I find it more likely that they are.
This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks attacking FL, giving well-presented justifications and examples of her scumminess and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that she's not even a top 3 suspect? This looks like an opportunistic attempt to save your partner in a quick bandwagon right before the deadline now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people.FOS: GoatrevoltOn a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I must say, Goat, you're pretty good at putting words into people's mouths and railroading them for stuff they didn't say.Goatrevolt wrote:First of all, why is Veerus defending my attack on Sthar prior to Sthar even defending it himself? I attack Sthar and Veerus comes to his defense? That serves to reinforce my opinion that they are scum together, but that can be dealt with later after we see Sthar's alignment.
1.I did not defend Shtar from your attack.. I only attacked your faulty assumptions that just because no one is voicing their theories doesn't mean they don't have any.
2. You DID mention me as a suspect, so your post was an attack of sorts on me as well
Just to emphasize my point above that you're making baseless attacks,Goatrevolt wrote:
It's not a stretch at all. Why is Sthar using theories of someone he finds scummy as additional reasoning to justify a lynch of a player? When I see someone add justification to a case that simply isn't meaningful, doesn't indicate that a player is scum, or doesn't fit with their current or previous stances then it sets off huge alarm bells. This justification by Sthar8 doesn't fit with his stance that Alvinz is scum, and furthermore who is scum with forbiddan is completely meaningless towards determining whether or not forbiddan actually is scum.veerus wrote:This is a stretch. Everyone who's voting for FL obviously has reason to think she's scum. However, since this is the game of imperfect information, theories that hinge on her alignment may or not be correct. Just because not everyone has voiced their assumptions doesn't mean that no one else is thinking of them.my post did not defend Sthar. If anything, it defended many of the other players (myself included) who have yet to present a theory on FL's scum partners. Your arguments assume that FL isn't scum when from the looks of it most of the town feels like she is. Theories on her being scum are a waste of time since we don't know if she is.. we just know that herplayhas been scummy.
1. This day has gone on for a month.. 9 days can be considered as right before the deadline... especially if you consider the posting frequency of some players.Goatrevolt wrote:
You couldn't be more wrong here.veerus wrote:This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks attacking FL, giving well-presented justifications and examples of her scumminess and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that she's not even a top 3 suspect? This looks like an opportunistic attempt to save your partner in a quick bandwagon right before the deadline now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people.FOS: Goatrevolt
1. There is 9 days until deadline. It certainly isn't right before a deadline.
2. If I were scum and wanted to save my scum buddy forbiddanlight with a quick bandwagon right before the deadline, I would have picked a target that it could have happened on, like Alvinz or StrangerCoug. Instead, I'm pushing a target who has remained almost completely unsuspected the entire game. This is a completely offbase accusation.
3. "Now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people" Show me the suspicion cast on Sthar8. Then I will yield this point.
4. Changing my mind isn't scummy as you seem to want to portray it as. I see weak attacks on Forbiddan, and scummy justification for lynching her. I change my opinion on her based on that and instead attack those pushing weak attacks.
2. This is WIFOM. You're gambling either way, and with alvinz and SC being in their own little world that no one seems to be paying attention to, a fresh suspect is not an offbase play.
3. see #2
4. Changing your mind isn't scummy. Changing your mind when you've been pushing FL for the better part of D2 *is* scummy. Changing your mind and downgrading your top suspect from the past 3 weeks to completely off the radar is VERY scummy.
I find it scummy how you put words in my mouth and misuse terms (presumably because "chainsaw" sounds intimidating) to create further confusion and strengthen your argument. Please show where in my post I defended Sthar. Use quotes... I'm guessing they'll probably say something along the lines of "I think you're wrong about Sthar because..." You won't find them becauseGoatrevolt wrote:I think it's extremely telling that Veerus is using the "chainsaw defense" to defend Sthar8. As soon as I attack Sthar8, he steps up and defends Sthar and then attacks me right back. Classic scum buddy defense right there, especially since his reasons for attacking me are completely off base. I just put my balls on the line for forbiddanlight, and if she's scum, then I'm going to have a hard time defending myself. Does that makes sense from the perspective of us being scum buddies together? Even if we were scum buddies and I was ballsy enough to stand up and defend her at L-2 with people not voting her stating their intent to do so (basically, she was going to be lynched) then why would I attack literally one of the most unsuspected players in the game?I didn't defend Sthar.
As for your argument about it making sense for you to defend your scumbuddy FL at L-2.. that's more WIFOM. I find it interesting how your post is full of it.
I did not spend the past 3 weeks defending you. I only made a couple of posts at one point where I said that you did not strike me as scum and I wasn't going to claim that you are based on meta alone (like FL did). Since you like to repeat the fact that my post defended Sthar, I'll repeat thatGoatrevolt wrote:Finally, I'll leave you with this bit addressed to Veerus:
This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks defending Goatrevolt, giving well-presented justifications and examples of why players' baseless attacks on him aren't meaningful and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that he's a suspect? This looks like an opportunistic attempt to save your partner by using the chainsaw defense right before the deadline now that there has been some suspicion cast on him.my post made NO mention of your attacks on Sthar whatsoever.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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How do you explain away her earlier inconsistant behavior that got her into her current predicament?Goatrevolt wrote:That isn't the only reason that I no longer think FL is town. Perhaps she's exceptionally skilled at WIFOM and I'm buying into it but I feelher play has been pro-town as of late. Her suggestion that we lynch her so the town can move on to discussing other targets, thus expressing worry about the town losing track of scum by focusing solely on one target, speaks to me of a pro-town mindset. Her dropping of suspicion on me after I stopped attacking her doesn't come as a surprise to me, as I considered her attack on me to be 100% OMGUS anyway.
At this point, I really get the feeling that forbiddan is a mislynch and thus I am switching targets.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Didn't Goat move his vote to sthar8 too?Dean Harper wrote:OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:
forbiddanlight - (4) Goatrevolt, alvinz95, veerus, sthar8
alvinz95 - (2) StrangerCoug, forbiddanlight
BridgesAndBalloons - (1) Megatheory
With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch a player - YOU ARE IN L-1.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Megatheory, you asked everyone for their opinions, but you failed to express yours if FL is scum (I'm assuming your listed possibilities are if FL is town). Also, how was I OMGUSy with Goat? I simply took issue with one of his many points of emphasis that I felt was invalid.
If FL is scum, two out of B&B, Goat and SC are likely to be scum.
If she's town.. then I'm truly at a loss.. She has shown such a mountain of tells that if she's not scum, I would have to re-read the whole game from the start. It would make sense however that the possible scum would be the ones she attacked -- skillit and alvinz.
It also makes it difficult to determine potential suspects since cerebus is still out without replacement and skillit has all but disappeared since his epic argument with FL ended.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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That's a good catch, SC. However, before your vote, Goat moved his to sthar8 as I initially said but apparently the mod missed it, so your vote put FL back to L-1. Goat's switch is here and here.StrangerCoug wrote:OK, now what? Something has to be wrong with the vote here too—it also still has me as voting alvinz95 when I switched seven posts before that. If that's the only thing wrong, then forbiddanlight should have been lynched.
I'm completely and utterly confused as to what the count should be.
Someone should check the vote count since the mod keeps missing votes.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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This doesn't sit well with me. It looks like an attempt to try too hard at implying that he's a townie just like Rage 1.0. Since Rage 1.0 was townie, there's absolutely no information that he would have as 1.0 that he wouldn't have as 2.0.Rage wrote:Post 1: Goatrevolt had just voted for Rage 1.0 because he asked what the name of the scum were in the game, and StrangerCoug said he agreed, accompanied with his vote. In this post, alvinz made a 'comment' about what he thought of StrangerCoug's vote, and said that his vote will remain on Rage 1.0.
I have an issue with this post, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post it, since it may be a conflict of interest because I doresembleRage 1.0*hint hint*.
FL's defense of this point makes me think that if she's scum, Rage is quite possibly her partner (though this post by Rage is suspicious regardless). Also, now that I'm thinking about it.. if I remember correctly, it seems to me that the only other person for whom she answered questions not directed at her is Goat. It's something to keep in mind when re-reading..On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Hey FL.. what are the odds of you volunteering to replace cerebus3? It's obviously not the best solution but I'm sure it's not easy to find a replacement for a 2-day, 40-page game. This way it would at least preserve a player and not force the mod to modkill him due to inactivity or whatnot.
The other option is to see if there's a NK and see if that person wants to replace. Of course this is less ideal because if cerebus is a power role, he'd miss a night action..On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Hmm... good point.. I didn't think of that.Goatrevolt wrote:
Well, if FL is scum, as you believe, then she can't replace in for another player...veerus wrote:Hey FL.. what are the odds of you volunteering to replace cerebus3? It's obviously not the best solution but I'm sure it's not easy to find a replacement for a 2-day, 40-page game. This way it would at least preserve a player and not force the mod to modkill him due to inactivity or whatnot.
The other option is to see if there's a NK and see if that person wants to replace. Of course this is less ideal because if cerebus is a power role, he'd miss a night action..On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Because up until that post, I didn't put two and two together. Rage's comments right before that post made me suspicious of his vote movements therefore I voiced them at that time.Megatheory wrote:Post 264:
Prior to this post, veerus said nothing about any of this except for the second point. Very suspicious.veerus wrote:As time goes on, alvinz seems like an eager, overly defensive townie under unjust (in his eyes) pressure.Unvote
Rage, your actions have been inconsistant and very, very scummy. I willVote: Rage. Here's why.
1) Rage starts off the game by asking the name of the scum in this game. This earned him some early attention before being dismissed as inconsequential. In light of his later actions and my theory that he is scum, I submit that it was a poor attempt at playing a dumb townie to try and attack whoever replied with a suspicious suggestion.
2) He pulls off his early, non-random, "pressure" vote off of SC for no apparent reason as far as I can tell. He then votes for alvinz because he is being dismissive with his responses which, at the time, was a solid vote.
3) He unvotes alvinz in his very next post as a means of generating discussion, even though alvinz was in no danger of being lynched. I called him out on it at the time, so I won't go through it again. His excuse for this play was that he has a lot of games to keep track of, and that while alvinz seems "increasingly suspicious", he doesn't want to be on the wagon with people who share that line of thought. Which doesn't even make sense.
4) Then, after one empy post, he re-votes alvinz. However, THIS time his reasons are that he's likely an unhelpful townie, which is a poor play if you're a townie.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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It's a protown question about not losing a possible townie due to inactivity because if he is indeed town, a modkill would mean a free kill for the mafia cancelling out the lack of kill that we had on N1.BridgesAndBaloons wrote:
if FL turns town, does anyone think this is a slip?veerus wrote:Hey FL.. what are the odds of you volunteering to replace cerebus3?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I did NOT defend Sthar.. we've been through this. Why are you still telling those fairy tales? As for FL.. she was *by far* the scummiest and most inconsistent player in the first two days. How can you possibly even think of defending that kind of behavior? Of course I accused you of being scummy for that. Ignoring obviously scummy behavior and focusing on people who have been scum-hunting is highly suspicious and not at all pro-town. This is a game of imperfect information so unless someone is a cop, it's perfectly understandable for them to observe conflicting tells and voice their concerns as such.Goatrevolt wrote:Something to think about: When I said I found FL town and pushed my case on Sthar instead, both Sthar and Veerus pushed to keep pressure on FL and get her lynched, and Veerus both tossed suspicion on me and defended Sthar at the same time.
Yet another lie. Take a look at page 14. That's when Sthar8 came in with his analysis of all players after he replaced into the game. He and I both answered each other's questions and posted some analysis. That's a little more than "not acknowledging".Goatrevolt wrote:Other than that, the two have seriously not acknowledged the other's presence in this game at all. That's a perfect match for scum buddies right there.
You like to twist people's words a lot. Since you've started your off-shoot attack on Sthar8 (throwing my name in there whenever you can), I've called you out on several attempts to twist my words and create misconceptions. For that you are currently one of my top suspects, which is ironic considering you seemed one of the towniest in D1.
Why do you think the doctor/roleblocker should claim? How would a doctor/rb claim help the town at this stage? What if Sthar claims doctor/rb? Since he's your top suspect, would you even believe him?Goatrevolt wrote:Also, I feel that if there is a doctor or other role that prevented a kill that first night, they should claim and also claim the player they saved as it would confirm 2 players as pro-town and narrow down our search by a lot. What's the consensus on this?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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False -- I attacked the point that I perceived as untrue and an accusation against more than one player.Goatrevolt wrote:You can keep denying it, but you attacking one of my points against Sthar is indirectly defending him from that same point.
The only thing I was unwilling to do was discount everything scummy FL did. I made my case on her early in D2 and it was never contradicted by the rest of the players nor was it properly defended by FL. The fact that she was at L-1 several times during D2 and was finally lynched only confirms that the town agreed she deserved to be lynched based on her play. Short of a confirmed cop's claim, it was inevitable.Goatrevolt wrote:
Entirely subjective. Scum Hunting is a term that implies one searching for and trying to find scum. Your actions, and those of Sthar strike me as "bad townie hunting," or looking for a townie who has made enough mistakes to serve as a suitable lynch without looking at the bigger picture or whether or not they actually seem likely to be scum. Your unwillingness to even consider me possibly being right about FL, and instead pushing her harder and me as a scum buddy strikes me as someone pushing townie mislynches, not scum hunting.veerus wrote:Of course I accused you of being scummy for that. Ignoring obviously scummy behavior and focusing on people who have been scum-hunting is highly suspicious and not at all pro-town.
No, but it's scummy for you to be hypocritical and attack one of the people for the same thing you just claimed to do.Goatrevolt wrote:
But yet it's scummy for me to voice concern over the FL lynch and observe conflicting tells to suggest she's town?veerus wrote:This is a game of imperfect information so unless someone is a cop, it's perfectly understandable for them to observe conflicting tells and voice their concerns as such.
More fairy tales from our resident storyteller.Goatrevolt wrote:I was merely saying that the two of you have more or less focused exclusively on other targets the entire game, coordinating your attack on FL, and you've stepped up to defend each other when I attacked yesterday.
1. You do know that thereareinnocents here, right? Not everyone looks suspicious nor is scum. I haven't really seen you focus on skillit much or cerebus. You don't see me calling you and/or them scum because of that, do you?
2. That's preposterous. How did we coordinate an attack on FL? By voting her for legit reasons? Considering you spent much of D2 with a vote on her while attacking her for much the same reasons, this is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black.
3. Once again, I did not defend him and he definitely didn't defend me. Just because you keep repeating it, doesn't make it true.
So only claims you believe will be the ones that are not counterclaimed? That seems illogical and unrealistic.Goatrevolt wrote:I think the doctor roleblocker should claim because if we mislynch today it's game over. Clearing 2 targets of being possible mislynches right off the bat gives us a smaller number of suspects to look at, and allows us to analyze information based on people's confirmed alignments that we normally would not have unless they were dead.
If Sthar claims doctor and can provide an uncounterclaimed result from the first night, then I'd be inclined to believe him. It seems highly unlikely that the scum would willfully select not to kill night 1, and thus an uncounterclaimed claim of that sorts would be one that I would almost certainly believe.
For once, I'm not sure if I disagree with you.Goatrevolt wrote:Personally, I'm actually in favor of a mass claim straight up. I want all information on the table for this lynch. We lose if we do it wrong, why wouldn't we want the most possible information out to do it right?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I understand the reasoning for mass-claiming as it would at least give us a chance to clear one or two people. Here's the problem I have with it -- if the doctor/rb claims and we still end up lynching town, then it's game over for sure since the doctor/rb would get NK'd. This is the scenario you are not mentioning with your suggestion of a mass claim.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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I had an idea this morning.. There's no reason to mass claim as it would likely oust power roles (since town:scum ratio is getting pretty close to even).
We know that we are dealing with 3 scum. We know the town had a vig. It is highly likely that the town has a doctor or at the very least a roleblocker. Therefore it would be logical to assume that we probably have a cop (I think mafia would be too powerful if we didn't... anyone agree/disagree with this?). I think the cop should claim and disclose the results from the past two nights. That would narrow down the search. In addition, if we have a roleblocker, he should claim too and say whom he blocked in N1 since that's almost a sure scum.
If these two (if present in the setup) claim, the town should be able to lynch mafia with a relatively high degree of success.On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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No, you misunderstand (or I wasn't clear). I only want up to two people to claim -- cop and rb if they are present. A cop's results from the first two nights should provide good information. The rb should claim with whom they blocked in N1 as that's a possible scum. Granted it could've been a doctor protection that saved someone on N1, but as someone pointed out earlier, if we lynch a townie today, a doctor's protection is our only realistic chance at avoiding a town loss therefore it's in the town's best interest to not oust the doctor early.sthar8 wrote:veerus: So you want any cops, docs, or roleblockers we might have to claim? That's gotta be pretty close to a massclaim in this circumstance. What's the difference?On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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