Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[bgg1996]

Page three already?
Is it too late for a semi-random vote?

[bgg1996]

I'll

vote: Surprise_Carcinogen

because, as of this moment, he has not posted for the longest time.
More logical reasons coming soon.

[bgg1996]

@bgg1996

Are you planning on answering the regfan questionnaire there, pal?

1. Eastern Standard Time
2. Can't say.
3. Mafia
4. Idk. Could be anywhere from twice every hour to none at all.
5. Neither.

[bgg1996]

What do you think the possibility is that Magnetic is Strong doctor?
That would explain why he claimed weak doctor, why he didn't know what it did, perhaps why he thought that claiming a role that he didn't know what did would clear himself.
He could've been scared that he would die, and take back his claim, and then put it back when he realizedit made him more suspiscious.
It's possible, if not likely.

[bgg1996]

Okay, somebody needs to unvote.

EVEN IF it was confirmed that magnetic was scum, we would still want to drag the day on as long as possible.

[bgg1996]

If nobody unvotes, he may just vote himself, if he is scum, just to make a short day.
Long days are good for town, Short days are good for mafia.

[bgg1996]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't lynch him, we just shouldn't lynch him now.

[bgg1996]

In case I wasn't clear, when I said "more logical reasons", I meant that I would have a vote with more logical reasons behind it.
Although, if you wish to believe that I already have many logical reasons why S_C is scum, and am deliberately witholding them from you for whatever reason, that is fine too.

[bgg1996]

Why should I unvote?

[bgg1996]

I see no reason to change it as of this point

[bgg1996]

I think that what he is saying, is that they know that they aren't going to get lynched.


Just because they know that it is a pressure vote, it doesn't mean that they cannot be lynched.

[bgg1996]

Hmmm, that probably wasn't very clear what I meant. Ignore the first sentence.

[bgg1996]

Pressure IS pressure. It could be any analogy.

If you hold up a dagger, and tell somebody that it is a dagger, it is still a dagger, and still serves its purpose.
If you hold the dagger up to somebody's neck, and say "I am only doing this to apply pressure to you so that you tell me this secret", you are not reducing any pressure of this threat.

[bgg1996]

Your analogy seems to suggest that telling somebody that a vote is a pressure vote, you therefore have no ability to carry out that vote successfully?

[bgg1996]

I didn't even remember who we were talking about. I have little reason to believe Maxie to be mafia.

Anyway, the lynch is in no way

decided

for today. We could learn from keeping Magnetic alive, who knows. The point is that the fact that it was a pressure vote had absolutly nothing to do with the amount of pressure placed on the recipient of said vote.

[bgg1996]

Wait, did that mean that the weak doctor did what the wiki says it does, or what magnetic said it did?

[bgg1996]

Even if you're scum, you don't just go do everything that town wouldn't do.
If somebody does something that town normally wouldn't do, I don't automatically assume that that person must be scum, because scum would have no reason to do such a thing.

Anyway, you seem to be saying that I came up with this idea because I wanted to gain credibility.
But that wasn't the reason that I did not vote him. On the contrary, I had thought that he the he was, indeed, scum. I wanted to gain information on other players before we lynched him. I was even thinking of keeping him alive as a kind-of scum-pet. Of course, if we had kept the day going, we may have found real scum, maybe even the SK. Not to mention the fact that we would have found out that there was indeed two mafia groups by now, possibly (but probably not) having him confirmed.

Only a few of the merits of not lynching him right away.

I am suspiscious of anybody who decided to lynch him anyway, after I told you not to, or at least not yet.

[bgg1996]

No, but if we extended the day, we may have found evidence to believe Magnetic, or found somebody more scummy than magnetic, to lynch somebody else.

[bgg1996]

Well, going around where/when magnetic was first lynched, I noticed Surprise_Carcinogen had voiced some suspiscions of me. More importantly, he called me an idiot. He proceded to metaphorically give me the finger by hammering magnetic the way he did, followed by some questionable logic.

@S_C: Do you still think I'm suspiscious?

[bgg1996]

I am suspiscious of anybody who decided to lynch him anyway, after I told you not to, or at least not yet.

No, but if we extended the day, we may have found evidence to believe Magnetic, or found somebody more scummy than magnetic, to lynch somebody else.

bgg+7

There was no reasonable argument against Magnetic's lynch, and the case for stalling was weak (let's not lynch right away, in case something happens!). Magnetic's was scummy as hell and, moreover, any reason for doubt relied on assuming he was trolling (which is an impossible assumption to make).

Faced with that, it's absurd that you would now turn around and attack those who lynched Magnetic, based on the off chance that the skies would open and proclaim his innocence. Coupled with your "too townie" rhetoric, the most reasonable explanation is that you are scum trying to capitalise on a quick lynch of a terrible (but ultimately town) player.

First of all, I could go on all day about what could've happened if we had extended the day.

Second, the main reasoning for prolonging the day is that we have more input from those who would've died last night. There are three people who arenow confirmed town, who have average 16 posts each. There were 48 posts total, 29 of which were Magnetic's.

Thirdly, I'm not saying we should not have lynched Magnetic, I'm saying that we should've used the time that was remaining in that day. We weren't going to make Magnetic look any better or worse, but we probably would have found much evidence about other possible scum.

Lastly, what "Too Townie" rhetoric are you referring to?

[bgg1996]

I find it extremely unlikely that Magnetic just guessed that there were two killing sources. There is no vig.


@Vollkan
You are saying that if we discussed further, we would not have any more substantial information, but scum would still be more informed.
If I am overstating the merits of longer days, then you are definately understating them.

[bgg1996]

@S_C
Would that be because you are the vigilante?

Mod: What did the weak doctor do?

[bgg1996]

Give me even a single decent reason why you would ask that question.

Because I didn't believe that he would answer, and it would set the right state of mind for my question to the mod.

[bgg1996]

Is there a reason I shouldn't ask the question?
Sure, if he actually had to answer it would make me seem like scum, but if he isn't going to tell me, then it's fairly obvious that it's not going to actually affect anything.

If you attempt to analyze every post I make, most likely, you will come to the conclusion that you already had in mind before you started analyzing. It is quite possibly the most pointless thing that you can do in mafia.

[bgg1996]

There was zero chance that the question would be answered.

I'm not going to continue this stupid, and completely worthless argument any further.
Unless, maybe, anybody does something either scummy, or extremely stupid.

[bgg1996]

Maxous, I didn't answer your question for two reasons.
1. I had already specified the people who I was suspecting. It wasn't a broad statement like "all the jumpy people" where a lot matters on opinion and context. It specified a group of people that can easily be identified.
2. The reason I am not naming said individuals, is because I wasn't saying "I suspect these people, the people who did this.", I was saying "Doing this is a scummy thing to do". Does that make sense to you?

[bgg1996]

The people that I would be referring to are not unidentified. You can find out who they are whenever you feel like it. The fact that you do not do so makes me think that you want me to say their names, so that you can make a big thing about how those people have nothing scummy about them, and make a case on me for it.

Furthermore, I did not "change my tune" or whatever you like to call it.
If I were to say "I suspect the people who made the 3rd and 6th posts." that would imply that I knew who they were and may think that they are scum for whatever reason.
If I were to say "I suspect whoever made the 3rd and 6th posts." then it would imply that my suspiscions relied not on the people, and whatever else that they might have done, or even what is on those posts, but on the fact that I believed the act of posting third and sixth is scummy.

Before anybody makes a big thing about it, I do not believe that the act of posting third and sixth is scummy.

[bgg1996]

I was going to say yura-chi, but looking back at how she played so far, I would think that she isn't good enough to play as scum without giving a few more tells than she has so far.

Anyway, I didn't specify seven people with that statement. The way it is worded, I only specified two.

[bgg1996]

You think I did something scummy, but that doesn't mean you suspect me. Is that right

This is it.

I'll start going over the thread.

Going from #1-13, I see that Andrew definitely needs to contribute more.

[bgg1996]

@ Maxous, I'm actually unsure how I forgot to add

her

onto my list I'll ISO and post related to

her

later.

My testicles shivered a little when I realized you were referring to me.

[bgg1996]

Andrew, you need to give your opinions on everything.

[bgg1996]

I think that even if it is normal for him to be lurking, if he refuses to post his opinions, and such, then he deserves to be lynched. The chance that he is scum is as good as anything, but we won't lose much if he isn't.

[bgg1996]

bgg1996 is oppourtunistic in attempting to lynch me. where have i said i refuse to post my opinions.

You have not said that until now.
Please reconsider. This is completely anti-town, and I will vote for you for it.

[bgg1996]

"

Try...absolutely everything that has gone on this game so far that you've ignored. From the RQS thing early on that you haven't said a thing about, on to the magnetic thing which you almost entirely ignored, or maybe any of the debates so far that you've said nothing about. Your 'case' against me is the most content we've gotten from you all game, and I'll be damned if it's of any quality at all.

It's not exactly a list, but it's a start."




Written B4 S_C's post.

[bgg1996]

A North-going Zax and a South-going Zax meet in a very big

tunnel

.......

[bgg1996]

right: i have to go now, but ill do it when i get back.

You've made the right decision.

Of course now I have to find somebody else to suspect.

Unless you decide to change your mind.

[bgg1996]

So then my question isn't going to be answered?
What the weak doctor did?

[bgg1996]

You expect me to believe that it's a coincidence that Magnetic guessed that there were two killing sources?

[bgg1996]

And seriously, the whole town is going to fall underground if you all don't stop tunneling.

[bgg1996]

It is a little more like...

several days ago...
People 3 & 4 did X


Today...
Person 1: "I suspect whoever did X."
Person 2: "Who do you suspect?"
Person 1: "I'm not saying I suspect them in particular, just the thing that they did."
Person 2: "That is a large group of people that you say you suspect."
Person 1: "It's just 2 people."
Person 3: "So you think I did something scummy, but you don't necessarily suspect me in particular?"
Person 1: "Exactly! Now I'll go try to scumhunt."
Person 2 makes post #344

[bgg1996]

And are you really telling me that nobody here has made a post that goes beyond the point of reasonable argument?

[bgg1996]

but I'm finding a disturbing

pattern

of "I'll tell you tomorrow"

He has only ever said anything resembling "I'll tell you tommorrow" once. That's hardly a pattern.


One gold star for the beginning part of subgenius's new post.

[bgg1996]

Honestly, I think that if Yura-chi was mafia, her first post would be along the lines of: "OK, so now i hav to lie to u, right? I shodnt tell u I is mafai?"

[bgg1996]

Another small problem I have is that

you are, apparently, fos-ing maxous

...for thinking you're town...And you're fos-ing Sub for a reason that, on the surface looks nice, but in practice is stretching at best. Currently thinking an Andrew/Yura team, or possibly one of the two is SK. Given their dialogue, I'm thinking that Reg and CKD are likely both town, but I haven't had more then one or two games with an SK before(And one of the setups was REALLY weird) so I'm not exactly sure how they read.

hmm? are you saying if everyone calls me town then i cant fos or vote ANYONE since they all think im to win? that seems like an epic way to say 'i like it that your contributing now' then 'but ur contribution is bad, this is why etc'.

Well, your contribution

was

bad. You didn't give your opinions on any events that took place. The last day's lynch was the most important thing that happened so far, and the only thing that you had to say about it was where you were at the time. You don't even mention everyone, let alone your opinions on them. The people you do mention you give one, two sentences tops.



Anyway, I feel I'm not contributing as much as I should. Just thought I'd say it before vollkan gives me points for it.
Forgive me if I tunnel a bit to make up for it.

[bgg1996]

yway oday ouyay aysay atthay, ubgeniussay?

[bgg1996]

It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy.

WRONG!

Here's a nice quote from the wiki to help explain why.

Do not go gently into that good night.
Lynching a Townie is a bad thing in general, but lynching a confirmed Townie is worse. To yourself, you ARE a confirmed Townie. While getting lynched is not the end of the world, the fact is that getting lynched is the one thing you can guarantee will hinder your faction. Do not acquiesce to your lynch unless it would be clearly anti-Town to do otherwise (although those situations are not common).
Along these same lines, the occasions where it's pro-Town to self-hammer as Town are extremely limited, and offing yourself out of spite toward the (evident) morons who are about to lynch you isn't one of those occasions. Even if the wagon on you is mostly Town, you still have to win with them in the end, so stay helpful.

To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN.

[bgg1996]

Errr, what I meant to say was, when I am a townie, anything to help myself not get lynched is PRO-TOWN.

[bgg1996]

It's obviously true that, as town, you should do everything you can to stop yourself getting lynched.

HOWEVER

, town also has other objectives which necessarily modify the way that they should go about "not getting lynched". Lumping suspicion onto another player by tunneling, for the purpose of saving your own ass is technically "pro-town" if you are confirmed town. However, you are completely ignoring the fact that there are other, much more pro-town, ways that you can avoid getting yourself lynched - ie. by honestly explaining your behaviour or actually making decent, non-tunneling attacks.

This is why your "I might tunnel people" suggestion is scummy. Whilst you can argue that it's technically pro-town, it nonetheless involves you making a clear choice to take a far less-than-optimal approach (ie. by knowingly playing badly). Whatever you can claim about subjective knowledge of your own alignment, for the rest of us it's a matter of trying to work out your alignment from your objectively evidenced motivations. If you are choosing to play in a self-interested manner, rather than a manner which objectively helps the town (ie. which can be considered pro-town even if we don't assume a priori that you are pro-town) then that can constitute a scumtell

Have I tunneled already? I didn't think I even made an accusation yet.
The tunneling itself may be bad play, but I am only warning you that it is a possible side effect. Besides, if one of you earlier posts is any judge, your definition of "tunneling" is a bit different than mine.

Anyway, you have yet to tell me

why

my argument is BS.
My argument is specifically made against this sentence
"It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy."
"It's scummy because scum hunting or

doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy.

"
"

Defending yourself is scummy

."

Somebody's argument is BS, but it certaintly isn't mine.






Made as post #417

[bgg1996]

To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN.

Absolutely not true. For example, false claiming a power role might prevent you from getting lynched, but it is not pro-town, because it can result in outing a real power role or taking doctor protections from real power roles. That is not pro-town at all. An individual townie doesn't win by surviving at all costs. He wins by finding scum and getting them lynched.

Yes, but the bad part of false-claiming is that it kills power roles, protecting yourself isn't the scummy part.
Going after scum doesn't really have a bad part, and it comes with the added bonus of not getting killed.

[bgg1996]

I don't see you finding any scum.

[bgg1996]

Proving you wrong as in proving my theories to be correct,
Or were you saying that you thought I was innocent, and then I do something super-scummy in your opinion?

[bgg1996]

Are you attempting to draw comparisons between yours and my play to attempt to paint your actions as townier, if so that's futile and irrelevant. My actions hold no relevance and don't have any indication of your allignment. I've already stated my thoughts on who mafia are and am waiting for CKD to respond. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the interaction and bickering that's gone on between me and CKD.

Actually they are directly relevant, but that's not my point. I'm saying that you seem to be kind-of hypocritical. At least I am helping in a small way by showing you how wrong your theories are. All of you are just tunneling on each-other. Look at your examples of "scumminess" in his ISO. Saying something without elaborating isn't a scum-tell, it even happens all the time. If you were confused by his reasons you should've asked.


@Regfan The last post you quoted was in response to S_C's last post.

[bgg1996]

Have I tunneled already? I didn't think I even made an accusation yet.
The tunneling itself may be bad play, but I am only warning you that it is a possible side effect. Besides, if one of you earlier posts is any judge, your definition of "tunneling" is a bit different than mine.

Anyway, you have yet to tell me why my argument is BS.
My argument is specifically made against this sentence
"It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy."
"It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy."
"Defending yourself is scummy."

Somebody's argument is BS, but it certaintly isn't mine.

bgg+7

And again you resort to semantics.

Let's review the paper trail.

You said:

Anyway, I feel I'm not contributing as much as I should. Just thought I'd say it before vollkan gives me points for it.
Forgive me if I tunnel a bit to make up for it.

Whether or not it's a side-effect is irrelevant - you appear to be seriously suggesting that it's okay for you to make bad accusations (which is, by definition, what tunneling involves) in order to save yourself. I've explained why this is scummy.

Like I said, you apparently have a different definition of tunneling than I do. I believe the word to mean, more or less, you are magnifying the amount of scumminess you see. I think that a bit of tunneling (by that definition, at least) is a fine price to pay to scumhunt at normal levels.

Subg makes the obvious response:

To answer your question (even though I suspect that you are fully aware of the answer), It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy. Town hunts scum because it helps acheive their win condition, not because it makes them look town.

You make your rebuttal, which I counter-rebut.

And now you have the gall to reduce subg's initial argument to "Defending yourself is scummy" when it is

f***ing obvious

from the initial context of this discussion that this has been about YOUR indication that you might tunnel.

To answer your question (even though I suspect that you are fully aware of the answer), It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy. Town hunts scum because it helps acheive their win condition, not because it makes them look town.

WTF?!
How is this_ no, what does this quote have anything to do with tunneling?!
Now you're just BSing us.
Furthermore, the statement that I quoted says quite clearly that defending yourself is scummy.
It's scummy because scum hunting or doing anything else for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy.
scumhunting or anything else is the exact same thing as doing anything.
That makes it It's scummy because doing anything for the purpose of not appearing scummy is scummy.
That includes defending yourself.

I don't see you finding any scum.

Pure tu quoque[/quote]

Pure appeal to hypocracy? Maybe. There's nothing wrong with it, at least that I can tell.

[bgg1996]

Actually they are directly relevant, but that's not my point.

Educate me, how are they related?

I would be glad to. Let's say that scumminess actually could be measured on a scum-scale. (it cannot)
Now let's say that my scum-reading is 80 (higher is scummier). Now, the highest, of course, would be confirmed scum, the lowest confirmed town. Let's say that everyone but me and three other people are confirmed town. I'm obviously either scum or SK. On the other hand, let's say that there are 4 confirmed scum. (this is all going under the assumption of 3 scum, 1 SK). I am then confirmed town. Now let's say that there are four people, whose scum-meters read very high, and the rest of us hover around eighty. On the other hand, if the majority was far below me. Then, I would be most likely scum. The point is that since there are a set number of scum, scumminess is completely relative to the other members of the town.

Now hopefully, at least one of you understood that mess, and can actually help him understand it.

[bgg1996]

Idea: Let's listen to Max, drop the subject, and stick to a real question: Who do you think is scum, Bgg?

I'm leaning towards Andrew. Other than that, I suppose that vollkan just told a fib, Yura-chi is being completely unhelpful, and... Not very much else.
I'm never really able to scumhunt very well, because I can always come up with reasons why somebody would do something scummy. For example, I bet that vollkan was convinced that subgenius was talking about my warning that I may tunnel because that is what he was obsessed about.



Before I drop the subject: Would a mafia member tell you that he was doing something that he believed was scummy? Either I'm not a mafia member, or I don't believe it is a scummy thing to do. If I don't think it's a scummy thing to do, then I would do it regardless of whether I was mafia or townie. Then how is it scummy, regardless of whether it may be anti-town?


@Vollkan, 1. What if everybody in the town was "robbing banks"?
2. I still should've pointed it out, since you're saying that it can be a scumtell.

[bgg1996]

That's actually highly incorrect bgg1996, very very incorrect. In fact that logic is so stupid it's not even funny.

You're saying, if a townie is scummy, then mafia will be scummier then him still.

No, not necessarily. I'm saying that, with an ideal scum-meter, people who are scummier will have a greater chance of being actual scum.

[bgg1996]

No, what I'm saying, is that my chance of being scum is completely relative to all of your behavior.

[bgg1996]

No, it's not. If four other people act too scummy to be town, then my chance of being mafia lowers significantly.

[bgg1996]

EDWOP: Typo: No it doesn't., not No, it's not.

[bgg1996]

EBWOP: Sorry, No they don't.

[bgg1996]

There's no such thing as

too scummy to be town

since scumminess does not have an absolute value.

I'll make sure to NK you for that statement.

[bgg1996]

From the people I want to lynch most, to the people I want to lynch least:
Andrew94, curiouskarmadog, Truant, Yura-chi, Regfan, Subgenius, maxous, vollkan, Surprise_Carcinogen, bgg1996

[bgg1996]

Don't worry, you are still in the top four/five of my scumminess chart. But your big posts are too helpful to risk. I don't want to lose you D1, until I'm a bit more sure that you are scum.

[bgg1996]

Sorry, I'm a bit tired, and the real D1 was really short.
Why do you consider this a scum-tell?
And shouldn't you be voting for me by now?

[bgg1996]

Truant hasn't posted for 2 days.
And I'll stick with not voting.

n bgg in the hopes that he'll start talking sense?

People have tried. Tried for many years.
And failed.

[bgg1996]

I haven't seen much case against truant, I don't think.

That's probably because he only has 11 posts total, half of Andrew's total.

[bgg1996]

Not that I'm complaining, or anything, but why did Maxous suddenly change his vote?

[bgg1996]

What evidence? I don't see much evidence for my scumminess. And you really expect such a keen eye as Yura-chi to detect them all? The main ones she's been voting for are ones that somebody else had already had said are scummy. She's going mostly by what other people say. Remember when I voted for the one who hasn't been posting for the most amount of time, and she followed blindly? She wouldn't know a scum-tell if it hit her in the face.
And, really, why do you keep protecting me, if you think that things that I have done are evidence that I am scum?

[bgg1996]

Hold on a sec, how does that quote make me scummy?

[bgg1996]

bgg1996

, leaning mafia on him he's constantly posting illogical comments and attempting to cover his poor reasoning with a rug until called out for it. This read my change depending on what S_C has to say.

Which of my comments have you found "illogical"?
In what posts did I attempt to "cover my poor reasoning with a rug"?

@bgg: You admitted to not accusing anybody of anything. Town accuses people of being scum, of something being scummy. You saying that you haven't accused anybody means that you're scum that doesn't want to step on toes. If you were town you would be doing something, anything; but not accusing anybody of anything is not pro-town, especially on page 17.

Okay, you're scum. Happy? No you aren't.
Town don't just say "You're scum, this is scummy." They have to find somebody they actually believe to be likely to be part of the mafia. Espescially on what may very well be lylo. The people who accuse people of being scum just 'cause. That would be the mafia.

[bgg1996]

logic is neither pro-town, nor pro-scum.

Logic is pro-town, it's just that it is just as easy to do as scum than as town.

[bgg1996]

Hey, check out Andrew's only three posts on day 1:
1. Votes Magnetic, answers Regfan's questions, says Vollkan's system is useless, says he hates walls, and will only skim them.
2. He goes to a tournament, Yuri talks like a man.
3. Says Walls of pressure are distracting,

expresses suspiscion of tclawren, who was later stabbed to death.

(by the SK)

I realize that night kills are WIFOM territory, but either:
1. He is the SK.
2. I am the SK, trying to implicate him.
3. The SK made the choice randomly.
4. Somebody else is trying implicate Andrew as the SK.
5. The shot was vig, the stab was mafia.

I know that I am not the SK, I am fairly sure that there is not a vig, and I don't think that the kill was random.
Nobody has yet tried to call Andrew the SK, and I wouldn't try to implicate somebody who only had three posts.

Comments, concerns, criticism?

[bgg1996]

The enemy of your enemy is kind of your friend.
As SK, the primary threat to winning the game is the Mafia. Some mods will let the Mafia win regardless of whether the SK is alive as soon as they attain a majority of the living players. You obviously want to prevent that, so if the Town isn't lynching scum, it's up to you to kill them.

At the same time, you also don't want to annihilate the Mafia at Night. While there is at least one Mafioso alive, there's the possibility that someone other than the person you target will die at Night. That extra kill is invaluable if you want to cut down on the length of time you have to spend hiding from the lynch. In addition, as soon as the Mafia is gone the Town will begin hunting for the SK, which you can really do without. Of course, if the Mafioso targets you with its kill and you don't have immunity, it's a failed endeavor, so decide if and how long you plan on taking the risk.

Is it just me, or is the activity dying down a bit. Only around half of the living players have posted today.

[bgg1996]

I agree with Maxous on this one. I just don't see SK going out of his way to shoot his fos on N1.

If a hypothetical stereotypical serial killer is going out of his/her way to kill somebody who he/she thinks is mafia, which, as my quote says, is the biggest threat to his victory.......
Then who would he kill if he isn't

"going out of his way"

? Vollkan?

Rest of your post

But is that a big scum-tell for truant, or how he normally plays?


Anyway, if no big holes in my Andrew is SK theory, then I'll be voting for him shortly.

[bgg1996]

@at bgg, in my post on 03/23 (my post number 15) I discussed you a bit...I had you tied for my top spot of scum....thoughts on that?

You did?
Well, I would've tried to defend myself.... if I had noticed.

[bgg1996]

For those of you who are saying that my case is full of WIFOM and BS...
WIFOM is when people are saying "But what if that is what he wants me to think..... But what if that is what he wants me to think..... But what if........"
I have clearly stated all of the reasons that somebody could've wanted to kill tclawren.

1. He is the SK.
2. I am the SK, trying to implicate him.
3. The SK made the choice randomly.
4. Somebody else is trying implicate Andrew as the SK.
5. The shot was vig, the stab was mafia.

There is absolutely no other reasons, except for ones that barely make sense, and/or don't really change the conclusion, that tclawren could've been killed.

I srongly believe that none of 2-5 could be true. After we eliminate

all other possible reasons,

the

only one left

has to be true. It's called the process of elimination.


That said

VOTE:Andrew94

[bgg1996]

The SK could of taken out Tclawren because he looked town. perhaps the SK thought that he looked town but not so obvious town that protection would be on him.

Beaten by Max, but I'll post it anyway.

I have clearly stated all of the reasons that somebody could've wanted to kill tclawren.

1. He is the SK.
2. I am the SK, trying to implicate him.
3. The SK made the choice randomly.
4. Somebody else is trying implicate Andrew as the SK.
5. The shot was vig, the stab was mafia.

There is absolutely no other reasons, except for ones that barely make sense, and/or don't really change the conclusion, that tclawren could've been killed.

I srongly believe that none of 2-5 could be true. After we eliminate

all other possible reasons,

the

only one left

has to be true. It's called the process of elimination.

1. Considered strongest overall town player who was unlikely to be watched, protected, otherwise targeted by a town power role.
2. Tclawren was killed by a vig with a really bad read.
3. Tclawren was killed because he had an accurate read on the SK (See Truant's case).

Maybe the first reason, but definitely not the last two.
2. A vig stabs? I don't think so.
3. Tclawren didn't really have a big scum-read on anybody but Magnetic.


And Regfan, I'll ask again:
Which of my comments have you found "illogical"?
In what posts did I attempt to "cover my poor reasoning with a rug"?

[bgg1996]

@Bgg, the points/posts you've made that I believed were illogical are:
This - Suggesting this given the information we had was completly illogical.
This - Mafia hammering on themsleves is bett ... 74479]This - Defending of the idea that any pressure vote even if stated as a pressure vote still holds pressure is fail logic.
This - Attempting to state people are tunneling just for having a FoS.
This - Bringing up how you should never give in to a lynch to attempt to defend your scummy behavior.
This and This- Trying to state there's a difference in likelyhood of who's town and who's mafia due to one persons actions.
This - Attempting to push a lynch soley on the basis of a nightkill speculation.

Now when did I attempt to "cover these with rugs"?

All or most of these have very good logic. Anybody can argue with me if they wish.

1. What's completely illogical is what Magnetic did in the first place. Is it that bad to think that it was possible that there was a rational explanation for it all?
2. I think it was fairly clear that Magnetic was probably going to be lynched that day. Extending the day would have benefitted us. Shortening the day would have benefitted mafia. Since it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the lynch, the mafiaMagnetic should've self-hammered. You're saying that we would have been best off if he had been automatically lynched with no new content the second Magnetic reclaimed weak doctor.
3. I'll direct you to my analogy. "If you hold the dagger up to somebody's neck, and say "I am only doing this to apply pressure to you so that you tell me this secret", you are not reducing any pressure of this threat." That's mental pressure. The only reason it didn't have much pressure behind it is because Magnetic was as good as lynched.
4. I only said that people were tunneling, at least by my definition, and needed to stop. Do you dispute that?
5. When I am a member of the town, defending myself is pro-town. That was my point. I wasn't even defending myself, I was attacking a statement that was very clearly false.
6. I think that this is true. If I am moderately scummy, and most other people are not scummy at all, then I am probably scum. If most everyone else is extremely scummy,then I probably town. It is basic probability.
7. That is not the only evidence against him. Not to mention that I am still using that same speculation.

[bgg1996]

How about we just don't eliminate Yura's scum-tells?
We don't have to do something as obviously anti-town as shortening the day to do that.

[bgg1996]

@Ckd, it almost sounds like you don't believe her softclaim...

[bgg1996]

Uhhhh, I mean him, SC. Sorry, I get confused sometimes when people have an avatar that has a gender opposite of their gender.

[bgg1996]

As of this moment, the last player-made post was posted 16 hours ago. Only 3 people, as well as myself have posted today.
Is there anything I can say or do to get this game alive again?
If anybody is reading this, feel free to give your opinions/suspiscions on whatever.

Anyway, since nobody seems to be at L-"got home from school and he was lynched", I'll

unvote

And put a pressure vote on

vote:CryMeARiver

.

I still would very much like to lynch Andrew

, but I don't think that having my vote on him will have much effect on him, other than contributing to his lynch. Once it becomes possible, I'll switch it back, probably. For now, it's not doing anything where it's sitting on Andrew. If I put it on CryMeARiver, that will, hopefully, apply pressure to him, and maybe get him to post more, or whatever. The only downside is that I might awaken one day to find that he is lynched as a townie, and town has lost. I don't think that he is at that level yet, therefore, I'm going to put a vote on him.

[bgg1996]

If I had to lynch somebody right now, it would most definitely be andrew.

[bgg1996]

I'd be happy to explain any "weird" logic, but when I do, it's "arguing semantics", apparently, and either way something is added to my case.

[bgg1996]

For everyone’s information: Even if I was cop with a guilty result, I’d still have 1% doubt in it due to possible unknown sanily.

In any normal game, all non-sane cops are not allowed. In a mini-normal like this, you only have to worry about mafia framers, so it's more like 99.999% chance.

bgg wrote:
I'll vote: Surprise_Carcinogen because, as of this moment, he has not posted for the longest time.
Good vote. Bad reasoning. Carcin looks scummy at this moment because she left when people stopped putting pressure on her. I half retract this because I didn’t notice it have only been 8hrs. What I’m not liking is that Bgg cast a vote and expected people to follow it before he had posted his reasons. It looks like he’s just flinging a vote down and making something up later.

Tunneling isn’t scummy, by the way, it’s a perfectly valid scum tactic.

It was a semi-random vote. As my second post, only six minutes after my first post, I hadn't had a chance to gather any real suspicions.

Bgg, when asked "why don't you change your vote" "I wont change my vote" isn't a real answer
Because he didn’t read the question, he read what question his brain wanted him to see. Using that knowledge, it allows me to see that he is feeling pressured over the vote for some reason. Definitely something to pressure him for a bit later, or pressure him for something else!.

Who didn't read the question correctly? VV

Let me rephrase. Your vote on Carciogen was basically a RV. You called her out for not posting, which doesn't make any sense but whatever. It was a RV. I can live with that.

But, now you are speaking again and you are still keeping your RV up, and alluded to (perhaps WIFOM-ing) having your own reasons for doing so.

So let me ask you this: Are you keeping the vote up because you see no reason to change it as of this point or do you think that Carciogen is acting scummy in some way? If it's the latter explain how he is.

Hopefully that clears things up.

I see no reason to change it as of this point

^^

You seem to know that there’s an SK in the game, what an interesting thing to presume. It could equally be a Vig, but you instantly decide they’re an SK. Why did you do this?

It could be a vig.
But it could not

equally

be a vig.
My assumption is based mainly on Magnetic's first role-claim.
The way he put it, it's silly to think that it was made with a vig in mind.
1. There is an SK:
*The game includes a new role, with the same name as an uncommon role
2. There is a vig:
*Magnetic made up his claim, based on what he guessed weak doctor did
*His role PM did not include abilities
*He happened to be correct in the assumption that there are two killers
*The flavor killing methods are weird

Bgg wrote:
I'll make sure to NK you for that statement.
AND HE IS STILL ALIVE. *headdesk*

Carcin: Joking around and having fun is not a scumtell, or a towntell. It’s a null tell. Because that’s what these games are about. Having fun.

It's unbelievably ironic that these two statements were placed together.

Bgg is taking back his soft claim of a killing role. Backtracking and lying. Scummy.

I have already stated that I do not believe there to be a vigilante in this game. I did not intend to claim it in any way.
Nor, however, will I deny it. Most, if not all discussion about town PRs benefits scum more than town.

I didn't read anything else, I was scrolling up to start my reread and I saw a vote on me and read it.

Do you really think that one vote on me is really going to pressure me into rereading and making a post faster?

Seeing as after you saw it, you made a detailed post about it, OMGUSed me, without reading anything else, and managed to rank up 12 scumpoints......
Yes I think it worked rather well.

[bgg1996]

In case I wasn't clear, when I said "more logical reasons", I meant that I would have a vote with more logical reasons behind it.
Although, if you wish to believe that I already have many logical reasons why S_C is scum, and am deliberately witholding them from you for whatever reason, that is fine too.

[bgg1996]

Why are you talking about Magnetic's roleclaim? He was a substandard player and I don't think he had any clue about how balancing worked and then he flipped weak doctor, that's got nothing to do with why SK would be likelier than Vig. Stop using non-sequitors to make points.

Non-sequitors.
I didn't know what those were, so I typed it into google.
"Non sequitur is Latin for "it does not follow." It is most often used as a noun to describe illogical statements." - wikipedia
You can call me scum all you want, but don't say that I'm illogical.
Scum is referring to the role I recieved at the beginning of the game.
Calling my arguments non-sequitors is a direct insult to my intelligence, which I do not take lightly!

On to your post, Magnetic roleclaimed weak doctor, yes, but he said that it did

I dunno. That's what it says.
I can protect someone at night, but if two or more groups attack the same person, my healing power won't work.
That gets us somewhere don't it?
Town's strong Doctor is there somewhere, i think.
I want you to unvote this instant.

I think it's obvious that if this is true, there is no vig. Therefore, in order for there to be a vig, this must be false. In order for it to be false, Magnetic would have to have either recieved a role PM that did not state his abilities, or lie, and never mention otherwise. It's highly unlikely that the PM did not have his abilities on it, considering that the sample role PM for VT does, and mine does as well. That meant that in order for there to be a vig, he must have lied about it, and that of all of the lies he could have told, he said that there were two killing groups. He would have said that without knowing that there actually were. He also claimed this before he knew he was going to be quick-lynched afterwards, so that he would have been lynched tomorrow if he had been wrong.

[bgg1996]

"I find it ironic that these two statements were put together."
Well, you claimed to have a killing role. I don't take claims like that with a pinch of salt and neither should anybody else. If you're telling the truth, you shouldn't joke about that so late in the game. The RVS is for roleclaiming stupid things, if you are going to lie. Then you should expect to be attacked for it aswell.

I did not "claim to have a killing role".
If I were to say "I have a killing role", then that would be claiming a killing role.

If, in response to a post saying that no statements were too scummy to be made by town, I said that I would night kill him, after saying that there is no vigilante, then that is a "poor attempt at humor", and some of "trying to prove a point", but absolutely no "claiming a killing role".

[bgg1996]

You cannot take possible outcomes, and assume that they are equal probability.
It's possible that there are two mafia.
It's possible that there is a vigilante.
It's possible that there is an SK.
I'd say it's approximately:
SK:

80%

2 Mafia:

16%

Vig:

4%

Mafia trying to make a joke:
Town trying to make a joke:
Mafia proving his point:
Town proving his point:
Mafia claiming a killing role:
Town non-killer claiming a killing role:
Town Killer claiming a killing role:

Answer if you want to.

What percentages would you use to fill these?

[bgg1996]

I am lost with these percentages. But yeah, Bgg did imply he had the power to night kill Regfan right?
Are lawyers or godfathers allowed in this set-up? (any ability that will make a mafia appear innocent)

I hope you have some idea of probability, because it is very important in this game.
Unfortunately for me, yes, Godfathers are allowed in normal games, if that is what you're asking.
Is it possible that I'm the godfather? definitely.
Is it likely? That is something that only you can answer correctly. But, no.

If I had to lynch somebody right now, it would most definitely be andrew.

I am really going to have to get

anybody

to give me a small summary on why Andrew is mafia.

I don't think Andrew is mafia.

At this point, my first pick to lynch would be Haylen. It goes without saying that she is a far better player than Yura, but so far her input is based on incomplete read, and I'll be curious to see how her read changes by the time she's fully caught up. Same goes for CMAR. I'd be more interested to read about his thoughts after he's read a larger portion of the game than this back and forth with S_C.

Why did you mention you want to lynch Haylen if you realise her input is based off an incomplete read?

Haylen has the same role as Yura, remember? We just went over this.
He has a read of Yura already, he can go off of that.

[bgg1996]

He stated it because Haylen said this. Or at least that's why I stated who I would lynch.

If everybody had to pick somebody to lynch now, who would it be?

[bgg1996]

Well, Maxous, now that you've seen the question, are you going to answer it?

[bgg1996]

I am more confident that Andrew is a non-town role than I am of any other player in this game.

[bgg1996]

I don't think I'll get much more out of this.

unvote

Vote: Andrew

[bgg1996]

I was going to summarize all of Andrew's posts, but I gave up around halfway through.


The first thing that sticks out is that he doesn't seem to be reading the thread very well.
The second thing that sticks out is that he seems to be posting unrelated information. Usually, I would disregard this, but he mentioned that Yura talked like a man at least twice. When you start repeating useless things like that, it's more because you want to fill space in your posts than goofing around.
It may be weird that he felt the need to point out the fact that he wouldn't read walls, but I'll have to read those posts in context later.
ISO#9 is fairly strange as well. After attacking S_C about deflecting the conversation away from day 1, S_C makes a post saying "Well, what would you like me to refer to about day 1?". ISO#9 quotes this exact post, and says "again, you are pointing to my lack of posts to suggest that i am lurking and to discredit my case." He then goes on to attack him more for deflecting. I can't make heads or tails of it.


Finally, there's something off to me about his votes and suspicions, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
Help me out?

His first post was to vote for Magnetic, as apparently he claimed mafia roleblocker in one of his previous games.
His fifth post, day 2, he votes for surprise for deflecting attention away from day 1.
His sixth post, he foses ckd because of a misinterpreted post.
His seventh post, he admits he "might have misread".
His fiftienth post he unfoses ckd, foses maxous for fence sitting, and foses subgenius because his posts look like they're coaching Yura(Haylen now).
His twenty-first post, he foses me because I said "To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN." when I meant to say "To a townie, anything to help not get me lynched is PRO-TOWN."
His Twenty-third post, he notices that ckd commented on the same thing twice, and says it reads scum to him.
His Thirty-seventh post, he changes his vote to ckd, and wonders why he didn't do so already.



I'm not saying that any of these are scummy, and this is nearly completely unrelated to Maxous' question.



Also,
@Andrew94: Do you still think that Surprise_Carcinogen is scummy, in light of everything?

[bgg1996]

This was your post, Andrew.

Well, what would you like me to refer to about day 1? It was dominated by someone whose sole purpose was to mislead and confuse us. If there's something from D1 you'd like me to answer for, go ahead and ask. But so far, you're not making a solid accusation, just "Ignoring day1, this is scummy", not "You did this this and this on D1, this is scummy". one of those two statements is scumhunting. one is a crappy attempt at a pointless case. You be the judge.

tl;dr if you think I'm ignoring something, tell me what it is.

again, you are pointing to my lack of posts to suggest that i am lurking and to discredit my case. do you even know what lurking is? its not 'posting low amounts', its 'cant post a lot'. then, the only confusion about magnetic was the fact that he said 'weak doctor protect fails if attaack by more than 1 person', to me: that was what THE NORMAL DOC does anyway. and also at the end where he listed everyone as likely town.
and thus u hammered and you were WRONG. BUT U CONTINUED TO START THE DAY WITH A LEAD (PROB FAIL COS UR SCUM)

First, you attack surprise for deflecting attention away from day 1. She makes that post, which says

absolutely nothing about you lurking or your lack of posts

, and then you start off saying "again, you are pointing to my lack of posts to suggest that i am lurking and to discredit my case." Your entire post says

nothing

about what the post you quoted was about.


In your next post, you

continue

to attack Surprise_Carcinogen for deflecting attention away from it. Your examples of deflecting away from day 1 include nothing but attacking other players, for fairly logical reasons, and not mentioning anything from day 1. That

also refers to most of us here, including you

, except for the fact that you haven't been using

logical reasons

, like most everyone else.

That is what I cannot make heads or tails of.

[bgg1996]

So you quoted the wrong post?

[bgg1996]

Do you think I'm scum?

Only the sith deal in absolutes.

[bgg1996]

For now... a Haylen/Yura lynch seems too scum-motivated.
We'll see how scummy she seems later today/night.



@ Haylen : How did you come across this game? It seems... Out of place.


@ Vollkan : While it may look like a short amount of time, and relatively, is, there were three hours between posts 800 and 802, where he was most likely contemplating it, after his thought process was called into question.

[bgg1996]

if he's town at this stage, then he deserves to be lynched for his scummy play this game.

If somebody is town, they should not be lynched.

@ Haylen : How did you come across this game? It seems... Out of place.

Funny/Embarrassing story actually. lol. I was going through the replacements thread looking for games to replace into. Specifically, I wanted to play with really good people whom I could learn from (I thought it might help me with my town play.), and I saw Vollkan and CKD were in the game and hoped I could learn from them.

For a second or two, I had hoped you were PMed about an open SK slot.

[bgg1996]

Wait, is the deadline in 7.5 hours, or 31.5 hours?

....its tomorrow night at midnight (EST).

Yes, that would have been nice, but I was thinking more along the lines of "Why should I tell you?" or "None of your buisness." or what S_C said to Regfan's questions.

[bgg1996]

i am a vt. haylen's claim seems bs

unvote vote crymeariver

survival etc

I'm surprised, Andrew.
This would be the first time since Magnetic that you've even suspected somebody who was on a bandwagon.
Even with Magnetic, you voted for him before he had a bandwagon, and didn't have a chance to change it.
Why start now?

[bgg1996]

As you find it hard to believe a doctor and one-shot redirector are in the same game, I doubt that a fairly experienced player would fakeclaim a role that none of us have heard of before, in a mini-normal game.

[bgg1996]

VT, strong doctor, roleblocker, simple ones like that. Not One-shot redirecter.

[bgg1996]

I might as well be trying to play from jail or a coffin -_-

Given this post, you may very well be.

Scum (SK + maf) is in: Volkan, Haylen, Andrew, and Bgg

So you think that me calling Andrew the SK, and everything thus far was a bussing technique?
And this setup would require me to be a godfather. Not to mention that S_C may not even be a cop.
Look at the interactions between us, we cannot be mafia together.

Volkan doesn't have a single person as protown in his points. No one is below 50.

It's hard to lose points, as it said in his

first post

.

He started D1 by being against S_C, yet it almost seems as if he was trying to stay out of the fight between S_C and Reg. He votes S_C for "weak arguments", yet she was firm in her argument that not RVSing was antitown and she didn't "dance around the issue of why non-RVSers are antitown", she flat out said why she thought it.

He said that it was a minor scum-tell.

But he finds S_C scummy for this and the miller claim question, but then he COMPLETELY drops the case based on 2 posts by noob Yura.

He did not "completely dropped the case". The argument was coming to a closing point anyway. He did not drop it "because of 2 posts by noob Yura". He voted Yura because she did something scummy. Scummier than just weak arguments. In order to do that, you have to unvote.

Also, his vote was on Yura/Haylen all D2 from the beginning of D2. It seems almost as if he planned to bus her at night personally.

Do you not understand how the point system works? That's how it goes, and he probably would've done it regardless of alignment.

He didn't even switch his vote over to Bgg when she was CLEARLY scummy.

Why should he switch his vote to me, when

she

was being so clearly scummy?
More importantly, why don't you give that scum-tell to everyone who didn't switch their vote to me after being so obviously scummy?

It's hard to explain why I think Volkan is scum. It's not gut, I see it in his posts, I just can't really put it to words -_-

This is bad/scummy for the same reason as Vollkan explained gut was.
It's used when the scumplayer can't come up with a good enough reason to justify their suspicions.
Person A: "I think Vollkan is scummy."
Person B: "Why?"
Person A: "That's my opinion. "

I'll break this up into a few posts so that Andrew can read it.

[bgg1996]

Haylen has played quite well, yet her replacee was terrible newb scum. She tried to please the town in everything she did.

And newb-town wouldn't do this, why?

Yet, Haylen's role can be tested on a town PR therefore we don't lynch her yet. One S_C claims her breadcrumbed role, we can tell Haylen to redirect her to someone based on what S_C is (investigative: someone scummy, protective: someone town, yada yada yada). Yes, I do realize she is likely investigative due to her backing up of Bgg.

I don't get this part. No, this won't work. You're probably just trying to get S_C to claim.

Also, tclar clearly got killed by the SK for a reason. While mafia can get away with targetting PR's, SK's literally almost have to kill people who suspect them or they risk being lynched the next day with no chance of winning.

Why did you think Tclawren suspected Yura more than anybody else?

Mafia can risk losing one member. I think Haylen is the SK. If not, she is scum. I highly doubt that slot is a redirector.

Why can't she be a redirector?

Part 2 finished.
I think S_C may just be a hider.

[bgg1996]

Andrew. Andrew, andrew, andrew. You contribute to Magnetic's lynch with little reasoning (it was a reasonable lynch) and no contribution, you then say you find tclar to be "off".

....
.......
If I am not mistaken, he was one of the first ones to vote for magnetic, on his first post, because he had

claimed mafia roleblocker in a previous game

.
Would you not vote for somebody who did that?

Then you vote S_C because he voted the scummiest people. He says A LOT that means absolutely nothing and has a poor poor case on S_C. He doesn't mention Volkan except to call him a bully (Volkan buddy). He literally does things with very little reasoning or explaining and constantly explains why he is not at the computer which really gets annoying . The definition of lurk doesn't matter and what S_C said wasn't deflecting. If anything, you are active lurking (even though you're not active). You are saying things and getting away from replacement and prods, yet what you say has no meaning.Active lurking IS NOT reading and not posting. He has called my slot, Reg, Sub, CKD, S_C and BGG scum ALL ON D2. Everyone but Volkan and Yura. He flat out defends Yura. He argues with Volkan, yet doesn't find him suspicious. THIS IS A KICKER: He targets S_C for "picking on" Yura as an easy lynch target, THEN he fos's Sub for "coaching Yura". Nowhere does he FoS Yura though. He is clearly backtracking and backing Yura. His posts are choppy, hold no sense in them, and are scummy. CKD calls him out on finding CKD scummy, but not voting him. So he comes up with a lame excuse to no longer find S_C (who he practically found scummy the entire game) scummy, and vote CKD. This is a prime example of aiming to please town. THEN he continues to find S_C scummy. His unvote and vote on CKD were meant nothing as he didn't change his opinion on them, just his vote to please CKD. But my favorite is yet to come. He drops ALL OF HIS CASES and votes me. Never did he previously suspect my slot. Survival /=/ protown. Pushing legit cases on other people while defending points brought up against you = protown. You have failed to do this. Also, your claim is entirely BS and came so awkwardly it's scummy.

Most of this is true, and the things that aren't, aren't worth going into.

I have expressed previous suspicion of Bgg. Others have as well.

No reason to explain this.

I'm not discrediting whatever S_C says, but I still find Bgg incredibly scummy. But we're not lynching him for obvious reasons.

YES. YES, THERE IS.

Oh hey, I'm going to vote for you now. I don't need to explain why. Other people think you're scummy too.

As you find it hard to believe a doctor and one-shot redirector are in the same game, I doubt that a fairly experienced player would fakeclaim a role that none of us have heard of before, in a mini-normal game.

I JUST fake claimed miller-watcher in a game as scum and claimed that I had been redirected -_- Too bad I still got Killed and lost

So you did something stupid and got killed. How is this relevant?

Anyway, I'd be happy with either a Volkan lynch or an Andrew lynch. Both are scummy.

Vote: Andrew

I'll be online til around 10 EST if I need claim.

Claiming would be appreciated.

[bgg1996]

That said, I would be perfectly fine with either Andrew or CryMeARiver, at this moment.



You're right S_C. Going into a big debate about your role would mainly benefit the mafia. But can you just tell us if you are completely sure that I am town(hider), or it is possible (cop/godfather) that I am scum.

[bgg1996]

@Regfan

1. So if somebody says that they think that something is scummy, I can't argue with them?
That is the scummiest statement I have ever heard. Scummier than any other thing ever quoted in this thread. Reading this gives me absolute sureness that you are mafia, and you need to be lynched very soon.

2. If the only reason he thinks she can't be her claim is that he thinks that she is mafia, then he need only say that he thinks that she is mafia. Anybody with half a brain could then follow. Saying that she is not her claim in addition to being mafia indicates that he has another reason why she can't be that role particularly.

3. "You contribute to Magnetic's lynch with little reasoning (it was a reasonable lynch) and no contribution, you then say you find tclar to be "off"."
He could not have been referring to that statement, because he said that after he said tclawren was off.

Also,

1: He is a troll, he should be policy lynched.
2: No, he's just a troll, not scum, don't lynch him.

[bgg1996]

I have expressed previous suspicion of Bgg. Others have as well.

No reason to explain this.

I'm not discrediting whatever S_C says, but I still find Bgg incredibly scummy. But we're not lynching him for obvious reasons.

YES. YES, THERE IS.

Oh hey, I'm going to vote for you now. I don't need to explain why. Other people think you're scummy too.

CryMe is right here, there is no reason to go into this, your natural playstyle this game is scummy but due to the claim any time spent now discussing it is a waste.

*facepalm*

If he still thinks I'm scum after S_C's claim, he needs to explain why, goddammit!

[bgg1996]

Bgg has been highly illogical

Have not.
Once, maybe once. Just once this game, that's it.

Stop insulting my personal intelligence, it does absolutely nothing of value except make me angry.

[bgg1996]

@ Bgg.

1. There's a difference between someone saying something scummy and reading a newbs actions as scummy or not. Though nice misrep of what I was saying.

Ummmmmm....
No there isn't. Saying a newb's actions are scummy

is

calling them scummy.

2. He DID say he thinks shes mafia him saying he also thinks shes not her claim means he doesn't think shes a mafia redirector instead an alternate mafia role.

If you think that somebody is scum, by usual methods, you say "This person is scum."
If you think that somebody is scum, because their role claim doesn't make sense, you say "I don't see this person as being [INSERT ROLE-CLAIM HERE]"

3. Not understanding this at all - Reexplain.

1. Simple, he said "you then say you find tclar to be "off"". That means that what he was referring to was

before

he said tclawren was being off.
2. He did not contradict himself. Actually, thinking about it, maybe he did. Either way, what CryMeARiver was referring to was incorrect.

4. S_C's claim doesn't automatically clear you, not until we find out what it is. For example cop could have an innocent on you but SK comes up as innoncent. /End.

The way you all are treating it, it says to me "Oh, he's innocent. Guess we can't lynch him,

tonight

".

@ Somebody Else: Talk some sense into him. He's saying that even after all this, CryMeARiver doesn't have to give a single reason why he still believes I'm scum. Not a single reason? If CryMeARiver turns up scum one way or the other, I'm FOSing the hell out of whoever agrees with this BS.

[bgg1996]

To state that you've been highly illogical is the truth - I've pointed out specific instances, it's not an attempt to insult your intelligence just a fact that needs to be mentioned to make my read of you understood.

I don't care how strongly you think it,

IT IS AN OPINION!

AND IF YOU DO CONTINUE TO CALL ME ILLOGICAL WHILE GIVING THESE LUDICROUS EXCUSES FOR ARGUMENTS, YOU WILL SUCCEED IN BEING A GIGANTIC HYPOCRITE.

[bgg1996]

1. Bgg, there's a difference between scummy and newb-town or newb-mafia, jesus christ. I shouldn't even be needing to explain this - Example: I find you very scummy yet I think you're town therefore I think you're scummytown, someone else might see how scummy you are and think you're scummymafia. Understanding yet?

2. He DID say that he thought Haylen was scum, that's what a large part of his content consists of, you're streching here.

3. I think we're discussing different situations here - I'm not discussing or mentioning Tcl at all, just Andrews reaction to Magnetic.

4. If I had any intent on pushing for your lynch in the future I would have been vague towards my read on you which I haven't - I've very clearly stated I think you're town.

I am losing too many brain cells trying to talk to you.
If there are any arguments you wish to continue, please try to actually think about it, I know, you haven't thought in a while, it's hard, and come up with an argument that actually makes sense.

Otherwise, abandon all of your arguments. They currently make zero sense.

[bgg1996]

Sure - It's my opinion then, you're getting hurt when I state it, if you seriously feel offended by someone pointing out poor play by you then you shouldn't be playing this game.

I am not being emotionally hurt.

Whenever I see something that refuses to make sense or listen to reason, a feel a tiny prick of physical pain. It hurts all over my body.

[bgg1996]

Fine. One at a time this time, though.

1. Obviously your definition of scummy differs from mine, likely to have been done by scum, because you seem to be saying that being scummy can be a town-tell.

[bgg1996]

1. There's a difference between someone saying something scummy and reading a newbs actions as scummy or not. Though nice misrep of what I was saying.

reading something something someone says as scummy
By my definition, thinking that something that someone says is likely to have been said by scum
By your definition, thinking that something that someone says is a tell generally associated with mafia.

reading a newbs actions as scummy or not
By my definition, thinking that something that a newb does is likely to have been said by newbscum
By your definition, thinking that something that a newb does is a tell generally associated with newbscum.

Not seeing the difference

[bgg1996]

Look, going back to the original point, just because it's a noob you're dealing with, doesn't mean that your suspicions are immune to criticism.

[bgg1996]

15 minutes left in the day.
If you don't want to no lynch, then switch your vote to one that lynches somebody.

[bgg1996]

Make that 14.

[bgg1996]

LESS THAN TWELVE MINUTES LEFT

YES, REGFAN, I'M SURE!
IT ENDS AT MIDNIGHT EST.

[bgg1996]

I'm stalwart on this, I will not change my vote to CryMeARiver.

IF SOMEBODY DOES NOT CHANGE THEIR VOTE TO THE OTHER WAGON IN THE NEXT EIGHT MINUTES, WE WILL NO LYNCH

[bgg1996]

EXACTLY 5 MINUTES LEFT IN THE GAME.

[bgg1996]

With less than 4 minutes to spare, we finally lynch (hopefully) a scum.

[bgg1996]

Thank you, I was going to change at 59 past if no one did. We're still allowed to discuss several hours after this lynch - Correct?

No kidding, me too! Except at 58. I was a teensy bit scared of no lynching. I made up the part about being stalwart. Yes, we can post until the mod does.

[bgg1996]

Well, Andrew, tell the truth, were you scum?

[bgg1996]

good luck town.
im neutral

So you

were

the SK.

I told you so, I told you so, I told you so, I told you so, I told you so............

[bgg1996]

Don't think he's allowed to talk - Don't ask him to the worst possible thing now is one of us gets mod-killed for asking him to converse. (Correct me if I'm wrong about that though)

Oh. Sorry.
Magnetic was allowed to talk, so I assumed...
Besides, it's just his role. It's going to be told to us anyway.

[bgg1996]

Oh well.
No use crying over spilled milk.
I just really hope I don't get mod-killed for that.

[bgg1996]

Great. Do you wish to continue the argument?
I'm

way

too exited to go to sleep.

[bgg1996]

He isn't the SK?

[bgg1996]

On second thought, let's not encourage Andrew to post more.

[bgg1996]

Finally....

I've been waiting since midnight... For this.

[bgg1996]

Night.

[bgg1996]

Sorry Subgenius, I'm not wasting a redirect on someone whom I'm not sure is scum. I don't think you quite understand that I one have ONE CHANCE to get this right, I can't try again the next night. It's poor tactics to waste your ability impulsively so early in the game. You also don't seem to understand that I'm targetting SCUM, not the scums TARGET. Scum took the shot because I announced yesterday that under no circumstances was I going to use my ability until I was sure I was right. I am not going to be forced into using it just so I can be confirmed, I'm not interested in confirming myself, I'm interested in using it to off scum.

I'm not sure how it works, if you just need any scum to redirect the kill, it's 3 town (not including me or you) to 3 mafia right now. If we lynch a mafia, it's 3 town to 2 mafia. If we don't lynch a mafia, we all die. Of course, if you need

the

scum, that's a different story. Especially since, if I remember correctly, it's usually a godfather that redirects kills, and that would make me a better target than anyone. Don't take that the wrong way, though, I'm on the side of the town.

Finally....

I've been waiting since midnight... For this.

For what?

It's so much harder to get a meaning across without a tone of voice.
I mean that I've been waiting for the result of the night for three hours, and my favorite cop has been night killed.

[bgg1996]

Despite Andrew's deleted posts to the contrary, I can't see how his flip invalidates Haylen's claim, let alone to the point of justifying me voting her over CMAR,

When did you get a chance to see those posts?
If you were online at the time, why didn't you post? Let us know that you were online?

[bgg1996]

Claim: One Shot Redirector. Yura did not use her ability. If I'm allowed to live, I plan on using it in mylo to reflect the scums kill back at themselves. If we reach lylo and I haven't used it by then, I THINK I the night will play out and I can redirect the scums kill back at themselves if we mislynch.

Also, this will not work. If we get to lylo and mislynch, scum can just not kill, and win with a tie.
This is why you must use it at the very next opportunity. Time is running out. If you don't use it soon, you won't be able to at all.

[bgg1996]

Yes. That is why it will work in mylo. Not lylo.

[bgg1996]

Somehow, I don't think either of them are scum.
Except maybe CMAR.

At the very least, we should look for a new candidate.

[bgg1996]

At the very least, we should look for a new candidate.

And scum, this is the perfect time to bus one of your buddies.

[bgg1996]

Under normal circumstances, with a mylo situation, the scum would kill a town member, and it will be more likely tohit scum when we next vote.
Either way, we still get only one lynch til we lose, but with a no lynch, we are more likely to lynch scum.
Under these circumstances, however, they would just kill me, and we would be none the wiser.

[bgg1996]

Okay, I see. Haylen must use her ability, if she is telling the truth, the very next time that we do not lynch scum on a day.

[bgg1996]

About to catch a bus, so no time to make a big post. Just wanted to address the NL issue quickly

Gee, it really would have been nice if Haylen had redirected that kill. I'm not sure NL is the best option, since the scum will probably just take the opportunity to kill bgg. I suppose he's not technically confirmed since he could still be a godfather, but in our current situation, I think it makes sense to assume he is actually town.

NO. NO. NO.

Policy-wise, Bgg needs to be treated as confirmed - that is, he is objectively more likely to be town than anybody else. However, it is absolutely the wrong play to adopt a play approach which assumes that he actually IS town (ie. by depriving ourselves of the information that flows from a NK).

The test is pretty simple:

Do you think Bgg's prob-town opinion is more useful than confirmation of his alignment? (other of course, in the situation of bgg not being NKed, in which case it's basically a question of whether him being a GF is more likely than scum not killing for WIFOM value - but that in and of itself would be a form of information)

I can't see how anybody could think that the answer to the test is "yes".

we go into the night, so scum will eliminate a possible canidate for us...they will not...bgg is cleared as town, so that will be their obvious to kill..

so if we no lynch, all we are doing is getting rid of a confirmed town...and we will be in the EXACT SAME POSITION WE ARE NOW..

consider us at LYLO right now.

@Everybody

See above; this isn't correct at all.

No lynching is all kinds of stupid.
First of all, we would lose our one-shot redirector, if we even have one.

Most importantly, if it was actually beneficial to town to no lynch, then all that the mafia would have to do is not kill anybody.

Also, you did not answer my question. If you saw Andrew's suspicions about Haylen's claim being false, then why didn't you post at all? Let us know that you were there?

[bgg1996]

Let's ignore whether it's actually beneficial.

Let's say it isn't. We shouldn't do it. Final.
Let's say it is. The mafia just doesn't kill anybody that night.

At the very best, all it does is turn the game into a test of patience.

[bgg1996]

If we NL and bgg-town is killed:

Pros:

1) Alignment confirmation

Cons:

1) We lose bgg's opinion

Verdict

Pros > Cons

If we NL and Haylen-town is killed:

Pros

1) Alignment confirmation (Haylen's lynch is a live possibility, if not today then tomorrow, so this is actually even more valuable than the bgg confirmation)

Cons

1) Loss of Haylen's opinion
2) Loss of Haylen's power

Verdict

Pros > Cons*
(* If we mislynch Haylen, it's game over so it's something better left to a scum kill)

If we NL and somebody else is killed

Pros

1) Alignment confirmation

Cons

1) Loss of their opinion

Verdict

Pros > Cons

Now it isn't quite this simple.

First, the "Happily ever after scenario" you're talking about is quite nice, but you see, scum aren't the only ones who will give in. There will be the scum, who will want to mislynch. They will always be able to switch back to no lynching if the lynch turns to a mafia member. Then, there are the people who won't give in, and only want to no lynch, unless they can lynch a confirmed scum. Finally, there are those who only want to lynch. Type 3:They will pretty much lynch anybody in their top 3 or 4 in favor of not no lynching, just to get the game moving.
Do you know how that game would work out?
Think about it. Eventually, the scum would build up a wagon on the scummiest non-scum. All of the no lynchers would vote no lynch. All of the lynchers would wagon onto the non-scum, and we would lose.

Next, the majority of the eight players is 5. Let's assume that there are 5 town, including myself. Since I'm town, and I'm not going to no lynch, you would need a scum on your boat to no lynch, or just wait 'til the deadline. If no lynching benefits town as you say, which it won't, the scum would never get on it. It won't even work.

Then, you're assuming that Haylen is the only power role left. That's a pretty big assumption to make, you know. I don't think that anybody here, except maybe you, by assuming that, have claimed a VT position.

Now, as I've already explained, if we get to lylo, townHaylen's ability won't save us. Therefore, she has to use it after mylo. Out of eight players, I doubt that she can get it right. We will have wasted her ability.


You're saying that the only con to somebody dying is the loss of their role and opinion. That's not true. It... ummm... Hmmm.
I'm sure that there's something...



Finally, and probably most importantly, When you made your little chart, or whatever you want to call it, you didn't include yourself. To me, that is a major scumslip. I know, townVollkan didn't include himself because he A) didn't want to give any information away about his role, and B) was someone else. But, he is probably the most logical player, and losing him is definitely different than "someone else".

[bgg1996]

your little chart,

Is referring to the quoted list at the top of the page, not vollkan's scumminess chart.

[bgg1996]

@Regfan Weren't we arguing about something? I was winning, you know.

[bgg1996]

Bgg -I think the score was actually 5-1 my way. (Not like I was counting or anything though).

Just because I get yelled at for "arguing semantics" it doesn't mean you win the argument.

You suggested wanting to discuss outside of the replacement slots, do you have anyone in particular in mind?

Not that I don't have any suspicions, but not enough on anybody but those two to build a wagon or anything.

[bgg1996]

I wasn't kidding about 'Lucidrous exuses for arguments'
In the first argument, you are essentially saying two things.
1. There is a difference between reading somebody as scum, and reading a newb as scum.
2. Nobody's opinions should be challenged. Especially when it comes to a newb.
Second argument:
You said

Do you not understand the issue here Bgg, he's stated he thinks Haylens is mafia thefore any claim that Haylen makes would be seen as a claim from mafia - To attempt to question and attack this is bizarre.

and

2. He DID say he thinks shes mafia him saying he also thinks shes not her claim means he doesn't think shes a mafia redirector instead an alternate mafia role.

You say two completely different points. Maybe my question was a bit inquisitive, but you having two completely different takes on it is quite weird.
However, I will freely admit to being quite bizarre.
Third argument:
You're probably right about there being a contradiction, but wrong in that that was not what CMAR was originally referring to.

fourth argument:
The chances of me being a godfather are small indeed. If somebody still believes me to be scum, they should have a good reason. Witholding all reasoning on a scum-read on a confirmed town is never justified.




Is there any other "bad" logic that you would like me to explain to you?

[bgg1996]

Me making a "pressure vote" on CMAR and having him respond with a big post and a possible scum-slip also proves my point about pressure votes still holding their pressure.
5-0 my favor. Your turn.

[bgg1996]

You still never answered this.
"

Now when did I attempt to "cover these with rugs"?

"

You accused me of using bad logic, then attempting to cover it with a rug.
I asked "Which of my comments have you found "illogical"?
In what posts did I attempt to "cover my poor reasoning with a rug"?"
You told me which comments you [incorrectly] believed were illogical.
As far as I can remember, you never told me when I attempted to cover them with rugs.

[bgg1996]

Bgg, I'm having trouble deciding if you're scum hunting or trying to settle a personal score. Do you simply want Regfan to admit you're right, or are you thinking he's scum?

Ummmm... Well...
When you put it that way....

Like my pride told my conscience, since people are putting "bad logic" in their case against me, by defending my arguments, I am also defending myself.
And by educating you, I am making you smarter, helping the town.
And by defending my logic, I can use it again without scrutiny.
And if I'm proven wrong, then I get smarter.

But mostly, yes, I just want him to admit I'm right.

[bgg1996]

First Argument: Essentially what I'm saying is everyone is going to read and understand noobtown and noobscum actions to be very different things because it's highly situation and experience related based. Therefore once someone has stated they have a conflicting read on a noobs actions there's not much point in attempting to challenge and change their read of it.

Okay. You say that reading noobs is situational and experience-related, and whatever.
The point I'm not getting is the part about not attempting to change their read. Isn't that what the game is mostly about?
It doesn't matter how much reads can vary, the point is to find the correct read, not have everyone keep their own opinions.

Second Argument: There's two parts to this: The first being if you strongly believe someone is mafia their claim shouldn't change your opinion in relation to your read on them, therefore he believed she was mafia before hand, she claimed he still beleived shes mafia. The second part of this is, the role in particular, a lot of roles have town and mafia variants such as town rolecop or mafia rolecop, I read his disbelief of her claim to be that he doesn't believe shes roledirector of either allignment.

1. You're right, it shouldn't change.
2. Then why was it bizarre to ask why he thought she wasn't a director?

Third Argument: Still not exactly sure how to argue or discuss this nor exactly what it is.

Hah! That means I win.

Fourth Argument: He didn't withold reasons of why he beleived you were scum - Remember he did place an early vote against you showing pure intent and belief that you were scummy. So yes, even though there was an innocent on you him believing you were mafia isn't out of this world.

Yes he did - Remember he based that vote completely off of one post that I made? The only reasons he gave was 'that post was really scummy' and 'other people think you're scummy too'.

Fifth Argument: LOL. The pressure vote wasn't the cause of him posting much more content not even close to, if you read through there was obvious pressure put onto him from multiple members of this player-list on top of that if there was no content proved from him he would be placed under a microscope regardless of allignment. So yes, the pressure vote was and is essentially useless when you said that was the purpose and intent behind it.

I didn't read anything else, I was scrolling up to start my reread and I saw a vote on me and read it. I have no idea what your post refers to at this point

Whether or not he gives a flying f*ck about it or not, my "pressure" vote on him was the cause of that post of his.


@Subgenius: Is there something that you would rather talk about?
I noticed that way back before S_C's claim, you were voting for me, but seemed to still regard my posts and opinions as much as anybody else's. Was this because you didn't really believe I was mafia(which is bad), or because you always hold everybody's opinion equally(which is good)?

[bgg1996]

1) I think that if I can convince enough people to agree with me, they can put pressure on you to fall into line; and
2) Even if you do hold out, the fact remains that unless you get 5 people in favour of a lynch, the result at deadline will be NL. You need to convince 4 people. I only need to convince 3

Under no circumstances would I no lynch. All it would do is kill me.

I see your other points.
Anyway, I think that the bonus of having an extra person on town's side outweighs the infinitesimal bonus that you would get from the night kill.
It's a matter of opinion now. Not that I couldn't drag up a few more points to save my skin.

Hmm, probably not as much of a scum-tell as I thought, but try not to give mafia any more information about our roles.

Can we discuss something a bit more productive now? Like scum-tells?

[bgg1996]

How about the part where CMAR declared me to be on his version of a scum-team, and while making it very known that he was suspicious of me, he refused to give a single reason why he thinks that I am scum.
I liked that one.

[bgg1996]

Would it kill ya' to give a single solitary not-insane reason why you think I'm scum.
Yeah, I might not be clear, but as far as I can remember, I don't remember a single charge being brought up against me.

[bgg1996]

@ Subgenius - Balance tends to depend on how powerful the scum are too. Obviously, the mod has an interest in what I would call 'odd' roles.

You're right, thinking about it, I would have a hard time believing that all scum are goons. Even harder if there are three.
2 scum PRs seems like a very real possibility.

Bgg could be a godfather btw. If we go by 2 mafia, it would make sense that he'd be NK and Inv immune. I'm reading Andrews flip as him being Inv. immune, by the way. I have no reason to believe that Bgg is town anymore.

Anymore?
There wasn't a change between your last post and now. It's already been brought up, so I'm sure that you already knew about the possibility.
If you just realized that Andrew was probably inv. immune, which I agree, he probably was, then why does that make my role more likely to be godfather? If anything, it makes it less likely. And why would I be NK immune? Why does that even matter, now that there is only one mafia? I call scum-slip.

[bgg1996]

If you just realized that Andrew was probably inv. immune, which I agree, he probably was, then why does that make my role more likely to be godfather? If anything, it makes it less likely. And why would I be NK immune? Why does that even matter, now that there is only one mafia? I call scum-slip.

It's called speculation. And all the godfathers I've come across have been investigation immune. I'm thinking of powerful roles the scum might have been given. In a non-open game, I can't remember once believing a cops results weren't marred by godfathers and framers. Oooh! Scum could have a framer!

While being inv. immune would be completely essential for any possibility of me being a godfather...

NK immunity has no relevance whatsoever, and the only reason I can imagine you even mentioning it now is because that you are one of the scum, and your godfather is NK immune.
That was the point that I was trying to make.

[bgg1996]

The advantage that you guys would get from NLing and me dying is related to the chance that I am scum.
Since I'm cleared by a cop, the only remaining option is godfather, or town roles. I think there's three scum, personally, so I'm going to go with that. If there is a godfather, the chance that I am he would be 1/6, assuming 3 scum, because there would be 1 godfather, 2 scum roles, and 5 town roles. I can't be scum, so 1/6. Now that's assuming that there is a godfather left. I'm not sure how to calculate the exact probability, but since I'm assuming that there is at the very least 1 scum PR, and there are 15 different scum PRs on that one list, since the godfather is more common I'll count it as two, and guess that the probability of a mafia godfather is around 1/8. 1/8*1/6 is 1/48. I have a 1/48 chance to be scum, with the following assumptions:
*The chance that there is a godfather is around 1/8.
*There are three scum left.
*There are no millers or framers.


Without factoring in anything other than the cop clear, the odds of me being scum are exactly 1/48.
That equates to 02.083%.
That would make your odds... harder to calculate.

Okay, I have it now. Without factoring in anything else, with the current assumptions, you are 42.857% likely to be scum, each.

2.083%
42.857%

You are all over twenty times as likely too be scum than me. But you aren't cleared.

Actually, that isn't right. At all.

That would only be for an outside observer.
For me, I'm cleared, and you all are 3/7 likely to be scum.

For another town role, like most of you, and all of you pretending, it's different.
There would be me and 6 others. You are cleared with the town role. I have 1/5 times 1/8 gives me 1/40.
You have 0% chance for yourself.
For you, I have 2.5% chance to be scum
49.583% chance for the rest to be scum.

0% you
2.5% me
49.583% others

In other terms, roll a 20-sided die. If it comes up 20, flip a coin. If that coin flips heads, I'm scum. For each and everybody else, flip a coin. If it comes up heads, call them scum. (I like this analogy)
By my estimation, I'm still almost twenty times less likely to be scum than somebody else.



How much would my death help you?
I would go as far to say as that it is

impossible

that I will be lynched tomorrow. It won't help. At all.

[bgg1996]

As if I haven't contributed... phhhhmph!

[bgg1996]

If I did not think that it would be foolish to vote for somebody with a vote already on him, I would be voting for CryMeARiver at this point.
For anybody else thinking of doing just that, remember that even if he is scum, his input would be very helpful.

Of course, this game could use a bit more action.

[bgg1996]

I see this case as a slight town tell for CKD though. He mentioned at the very start of the game how 'good' a player Vollkan is and when the game wears on and the longer Vollkan does'nt die I could see town CKD get more and more suspicious about why the 'good' player is not dead yet? There could be something going on, Is he fooling us here? etc.
I experienced it before.

I think that "Let's not kill Vollkan so that we can lynch him later" fits better.


Anyway, I'm not going to use a mylo lynch to kill the most logical player. That's what the scum should be doing.

[bgg1996]

it is quite feasible the mafia beleived Pappums had a power role and targeted him. This ties in with targeting SC (a power role). It seems to be the mafia's kill prioirity. Not killing opinionated town.

That's probably it. And now that we know, we may use it to our advantage.

[bgg1996]

Framer is a role that targets an innocent, and makes them guilty. It is irrelevant now, and saying "There might be a framer." is still meaningless if we lynch a framer, because by then we will know that we have a framer. I think you're deliberately making mistakes at this point.

[bgg1996]

The Framer may choose to frame a player during the night. If that player is investigated by a Cop, they will turn up guilty.

[bgg1996]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that an 'easy target' is just a town role that's easy for mafia to lynch. Likelyhood of being scum doesn't really come into play. Scum knows who is scum.
The only requirements for her to be an easy target are that she isn't really mafia, but is still quite scummy.

Of course, you're the expert.

[bgg1996]

Then that would make the top suspect CKD?

Of course, CMAR's breadcrumbs are pretty vague.


With that list, I think that I would definitely suspect Vollkan. Let me check his scum games to see if he is this logical robot, or he was lenient towards his buddies. Then, let me check Ckd's suspicion of him to see if it looksa like buddying. You can do the same.
If both of those things pop up scummy-wise, I'll be in support of his lynch. Let's see.

[bgg1996]

No, on the contrary, it looks like vollkan has actually been giving his scumbuddies the most points. Which makes sense, as he knows the scum motivation for every move his friends make. With that setup, I don't really think that the three people with the most points are all town if he is mafia. But I think I will check if he ever gave scumpoints on a basis that only scumVollkan would know, and if Ckd looks like he was bussing.

[bgg1996]

No, I think vollkan is either the best mafia player here, or just town.
I don't think he could misinterpret so many of the things that I said if he was really scum.

Well, it's still possible he

is

the best mafia player here, but then, we still shouldn't lynch him, as he would be the best mafia player here, and would still play as the best town player.

[bgg1996]

If we're going to mass-claim, should I breadcrumb now?

[bgg1996]

If we're going to mass-claim, should I breadcrumb now?

Okay, I understand that you're practically clear barring a GF and you're not the lynch for today, but it's statements like these that make your play scummy.

Well, It's not like I could find the answer on the wiki....

What was it about that question that made it look scummy? (more likely to be posted by scum than town)
I can't think of a single reason why scum would want to ask that question.

[bgg1996]

How much do you really think you can learn from my death?
Unless you were going to lynch

me

, it's not going to help one bit.

[bgg1996]

Who says you're going to be killed? If either Haylen or CMAR are telling the truth, it's quite reasonable to guess that the maf will kill them rather than risk one of their night kills being tampered with.

Because usually the mafia choose the logical kill choices. While it is possible that they would kill them, you have to realize that they would only do that if it is worse.

[bgg1996]

It doesn't matter who is really the best, because it's obvious that the mafia will decide whichever one is worse. The benefit from me getting killed is nothing.
It's either nothing or worse.
Unless you're risking it on the possibility of the mafia being stupid.

[bgg1996]

It's obvious isn't it?
The NK is a

choice

, not a random event. It shall be assumed that the mafia will choose the kill that has the worst outcome for the town.
I'm an available NK candidate, and my death will accomplish nothing. Since they will only choose the worst possible kill, the only things that can come of it is nothing, bad, or worse.

[bgg1996]

These are the available players.
3. Regfan
5. Maxous
6. vollkan
7. CryMeARiver
8. curiouskarmadog
9. bgg1996
11. subgenius
13. Haylen

I'm not scum.
3. Regfan
5. Maxous
6. vollkan
7. CryMeARiver
8. curiouskarmadog
11. subgenius
13. Haylen

I'm fairly sure vollkan's not scum.
3. Regfan
5. Maxous
7. CryMeARiver
8. curiouskarmadog
11. subgenius
13. Haylen

I'll believe Haylen... for now.
3. Regfan
5. Maxous
7. CryMeARiver
8. curiouskarmadog
11. subgenius

I'm don't really think subgenius is scum. At this moment.
3. Regfan
5. Maxous
7. CryMeARiver
8. curiouskarmadog

Out of those four, I don't want to lynch CMAR, Maxous, or Regfan. Regfan and Maxous because I'm not really sure they're scum. CMAR because of his claim.
8. curiouskarmadog

I wish I had a dead mafia to go on. Anyway, that's who I'm going to vote for.

vote:curiouskarmadog

There's nobody that I can't see as scum easier than him. Although, it really is pointless at this point.

[bgg1996]

Pointless, if vollkan is town, and this is mylo, we need full town cooperation in order to make the correct decision. If vollkan keeps up with his NL decision, it won't really matter. Actually, unless the entire town can agree, we would only endanger ourselves.
My vote is on the chance that there is actually only 2 scum.

[bgg1996]

Ugh, I'm not really sure why so many posts are edited by mod, I guess some funny business was up or whatever. This makes this game extremely difficult as both lynches are certainly feasible for town members to join. As I said, I'm only really going to read D3.

vollkan's NL is bad. CKD said that vollkan is experienced. If true, this makes no sense unless you know about the setup. I would be more weary of a MYLO situation if there wasn't a third party, but we have no idea how many scum exist.

The only reason it makes no sense is that it won't give us any information other than that I'm town. I'm already mostly clear, so the pros don't really outweigh the cons.

But it doesn't matter how many people there are left. An even number of people total means that generally, but not specifically in this case, the town should NL.

Haylen stalling using her one-shot is also suspect. The fact that she is still alive is also suspect. It's a mini game. You don't have ample opportunities to use your shot. Especially when your claim is out there. I understand the theory behind wanting to use it MYLO, LYLO. But you are exposed.

She made the right choice. Out of 9 people, she needed to guess the exact right person, and then another scum on top of that.
And really? Out of a one-shot redirector, and a cop, who would you NK?

Also the pappums kill N1 was really random. Yeah its gigantic WIFOM but at this point we have little to go on with crappy lynches of crappy players. pappums was only suspicious of Haylen's slot.

You think that it was a crappy lynch to kill the SK?
It was a day one kill. It's not that unusual for it to be random.

I'm not sure how it works, if you just need any scum to redirect the kill, it's 3 town (not including me or you) to 3 mafia right now. If we lynch a mafia, it's 3 town to 2 mafia. If we don't lynch a mafia, we all die. Of course, if you need

the

scum, that's a different story. Especially since, if I remember correctly, it's usually a godfather that redirects kills, and that would make me a better target than anyone. Don't take that the wrong way, though, I'm on the side of the town.

How do you know there are 3 mafia? Seems like a potential slip here. Also do not like the confirming of Haylen here. My guess is it bgg flips scum, Haylen is town. REALLY hate the reassurance at there "though I'm on the side of town". Completely unnecessary attempt to portray yourself as town. This is the scummiest thing I've seen thus far. But I see the cop softlclaim that bgg is town. Obviously a GF possible, but certainly not worth pursuing at this point.

At the time I was assuming 3 scum. It seemed more likely at the time, but at this point, it could be either.
Also, if he flips scum? That really can't happen. Not just because I'm town, but because if I was scum, then obviously I wouldn't be NKed. For me to flip, I would have to be lynched, and that's not going to happen in the foreseeable future.

Here's something I find suspicious of you:
In your first substantial post, you accuse two people of being scum for knowing for a fact that it's mylo. Yet, you don't seem to react to a vote on your head. I guess there's not much to defend yourself against, but still, you could have at least noticed it.

Hate the CMAR JK claim. JK is always a scum fake claim I feel. I don't like the appeal to emotion either. SORRY HAD TO CLAIM BC IVE PLAYED SO BADLY SORRY SORRY SORRY

I highly doubt both CMAR and Haylen are town/town or scum/scum.

You doubt that they're both telling the truth, and you doubt that they're both lying. I really don't think that they are both scum, but why can't they both be telling the truth?

Alright after all that, WE ARE THREE DAYS TO DEADLINE. There are FOUR people not voting. This is unacceptable. vollkan is surely scum. The NL idea is awful, just puts us in the same spot tomorrow down a town member most likely.

Most likely? Is there an off chance that the mafia kills one of its members?
I don't think you really get the idea of it. Do yourself a favor and look it up on the wiki, why it's usually done.

Vote: vollkan

in case I need to revote. I would be willing to lynch him or CMAR today.

First, it doesn't matter how many scum there are, there aren't going to be enough town players to lynch scumvollkan.
Second, you're basing this entirely off of the fact that he wants to no lynch. While I don't think it will do any good here, it's an accepted strategy for any occasion where there is an even number of players. That makes it null at best. If you can't find any better evidence than that, you need to look harder.

[bgg1996]

To Vollkan:
I think we're already pretty certain that I'm town. It would increase it from a 99% to a 100%.
And Regfan has listed the downsides:

1) Removal of Bggs opinion.
2) Allowance of mafia to have extra time to converse and plot possible ways to progress.
3) Removal of the ability for us to place votes to gauge reactions due to it leading to a potential lylo.
4) Addition of extra night activity leading to some players losing interest in the game and not performing as well.

And I don't think you understand what I'm saying about choice. I mean that you can't say "maybe the mafia will kill one of the others, and it won't be as bad", because they would only do so if they judged the outcome to be worse for town.

[bgg1996]

About the Haylen being suspicious being alive, I wrote that before I saw the cop softclaim. So that point no longer applies, I was posting my thoughts as I read through D3 did not realize the cop softclaim had happened.

The lynches were crappy because they were anti-town scummy players that almost begged to be lynched. The result D2 wasn't crappy, its crappy that we cannot really gather any information from it because the lynchees brought it upon themselves.

Andrew brought it upon himself for being so obviously an SK. Didn't you all see it?

I see the vote. I have no opinion on it, there really isn't any reasoning on it except the list of players who aren't scum and that leaves me.

But you aren't afraid at all? If we assume mylo, it only takes one more town vote on you, and you're dead.

They both are most likely not town just based on numbers. There are 8 people left. Excluding me there are 2-3 scum out of 7. You are most likely town, that's 6. If they are both town that leaves basically 2-3 scum in 4 people. That seems wrong.

You realize that you could say the exact same thing about any other of those 5 people. And it shouldn't start to seem wrong until it's 3 scum out of 2 people.

It's not null to want a NL. It will only benefit scum. Right now we have an advantage. Why let scum lessen that advantage and decide who to kill. We get more information off of a wagon and a flip, than letting scum probably pick you off given the cop softclaim result.

I'm not saying that NLing is the right choice, but you can't come up with any better suspicions than that guy who said to NL? You realize that this is probably mylo, don't you?

Saying anytime you have an even number you should NL is flawed.

Speaking generally, no, it isn't.
We would always want to get to lylo, as opposed to mylo.
If there are 5 town, 3 scum, we're at mylo, and we should NL.
If there are 6 town, and 2 scum, we would lynch a town, they would kill a town, and we would be at 4 town, 2 scum, mylo. If we lynched scum, they would kill town, then we lynched town, then they killed town, we would be at 3 town, 1 scum, mylo.
Either way, we would be better off if we NLed. Killing off a random town would be good in a mylo situation because it makes it more likely that scum is lynched, becuase you couldn't kill the town, because he died. Usually, the increased odds of lynching scum would outweigh the cons listed above. The exceptions are PRs and confirmed towns. We are debating whether we should do it with 2 claimed one-shot PRs, and a cop-cleared townie.

[bgg1996]

Alright. I think it's either Scott Brosius/Maxous/CryMeARiver, or Scott Brosius/Maxous. Either way, we can get away with lynching CMAR today.
But only if you all promise to lynch the other two if CMAR comes up clean.

[bgg1996]

Actually, it probably could be other combinations, but they all either include CMAR, so it's still good.

[bgg1996]

Hinduragi, no, you have to claim this instant. Before reading.

[bgg1996]

the scumteam is me Max and regfan (or 2 of 3 depending on size of scum)?

Bingo.

Anyway, I change my mind, I don't think I'll be voting for the one whose only votes are you two, my top suspects.

3. Regfan
5. Maxous
6. vollkan
7. CryMeARiver Truant
8. Scott Brosius curiouskarmadog
9. bgg1996
11. subgenius *
13. Haylen yura-chi

Subgenius
Maxous
SB
bgg
Regfan

If we assume that all of these people actually are town, then the scumteam would be composed of people in the group

6. vollkan
7. Hinduragi

CryMeARiver

Truant

13. Haylen

yura-chi

I highly doubt that this is the scum team. (Or even any 2-person teams in there)


That means that at least one of

Subgenius
Maxous
SB
bgg
Regfan

is non-town.

Either somebody bussed, or hinduragi is actually town.



Also, from the original players,

3. Regfan
5. Maxous
6. vollkan
7. Hinduragi
8. Scott
9. bgg1996
11. subgenius
13. Haylen

Taking away me and vollkan, who are almost certaintly not scum, we get

3. Regfan
5. Maxous
7. Hinduragi
8. Scott
11. subgenius
13. Haylen

This next part might take a bit. I'll post this now.

[bgg1996]

I just remembered something, and realized how important it is.

[bgg1996]

No, nevermind, it wasn't that important. *sigh*

[bgg1996]

Haylen? Do you have anything to say for yourself?
Although I bet it's 2. , I'm going to

vote:Haylen

now.
I have to hand it to her, I didn't suspect her in the slightest.

[bgg1996]

Well, the slightest, yeah, but only the slightest.

[bgg1996]

Oh, right. I have to

unvote

first, then

vote: Haylen

[bgg1996]

As well as a weak doctor and sledgehammer? (Not to mention jailkeeper, if there is one)
Especially if I was right and the weak doctor role did what magnetic said.

[bgg1996]

If I'm not mistaken, Mini 851 had not only a cult leader, but also a vigilante, and serial killer. That's my cue to

unvote

. Coincidently, I believe Haylen was in that game. And won.

[bgg1996]

So?

[bgg1996]

vote:Haylen

With both a claim that hasn't been in mini normals since #209, and already both a weak doctor and sledgehammer, it's not really likely that Haylen is telling the truth, especially with that defense.

[bgg1996]

Loving how Bgg is ignoring the fact that a NORMAL game with SCUM MASONS has just finished.

The last mini normal with a redirector of any kind, according to ctrl-f, was #209. It was a one-shot cop redirector.
Do you honestly expect me to believe that in addition to the weak doctor, sledgehammer, and cop that have already died, with a claimed 1-shot jailkeeper, that there is also a role that hasn't been used for over 800 games?



I also agree that your defense of your role is suspiscious. If you're town and you hear that your role is suspiscious, you don't already have a defense planned out for it.


player1: Your roleclaim isn't allowed in normal games.
player2: No, I checked, see? There's allowed one or two unusual roles.
player1: sledgehammer and weak doctor.
player2: O.0 [

guess i should've claimed something else...

] You're all idiots, I'm going to leave, so that I can run out the clock for a no-lynch.

Look everybody, are we really going to stand by as somebody claimed

a role that hasn't been used for over 800 games

?

And even then, it was weaker, as it would only work on cops.

[bgg1996]

Go away. I don't want to talk to you right now. I want to talk to a doctor who can stop me getting pissy over an ear infection. Seriously, I don't get why I can't shove sharp objects in my ear if if I'm going to get an infection anyway.

Because you could go deaf. Also, internal bleeding.

Oh hey, why I'm pissy I might as well rant about stuff that winds me up in games.
How about, people who use effing stupid reasons to lynch you and people who follow them. FFS, I thought I was stupid but really that kicks the bucket.
Here's another one, people who vote for you or think your scum AND THEN PROVIDE NO REASONS, then people agree with them anyway. Seriously, WTF?

You claimed a role that is against the current rules of normal games.

People who speculate really stupid things like this:

player2: O.0 [guess i should've claimed something else...] You're all idiots, I'm going to leave, so that I can run out the clock for a no-lynch.

STFU. If you really knew what was going through my head or qualify to judge, you'd know I'm not lying about my role and the reason I'm annoyed is for actions like the above combined with significant pain I'm experiencing.

I'm sorry that you have an ear infection, but that really isn't my problem. I don't know what's going through your head because I am not a mind reader. If I was, I would have much better things to do than sitting around playing mafia.

People who couldn't be bothered to look into the rules of normal reviewing but are prepared to judge someone based on it without looking at the evidence.
People who don't understand the difference between lurking and active lurking.
The ultimate: Self hammerers and cheaters, they really take the biscuit.

Closed Normal Games should satisfy the following rules:
Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Redirector.
New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.

One-shot redirector violates all of these rules. And there is already a sledgehammer, and weak doctor, making 2 unusual roles.

If I come back from sleeping to find myself lynched, a) I'm going to be even more pissy. b) look at those who are arguing this stupid fucking argument.

I would be pissy (

whatever that means

) too, if I was given a role that

is not allowed in closed normal games.

Open and Semi-Open Games can ignore some of these restrictions; though this section is still under construction.

So your open normal example doesn't really matter one bit.



Ignoring all of these, redirector has only been used

once

in all mini normal games, as a one-shot cop redirector in mini #209. The chance that you have it now are less than 1%.

[bgg1996]

I really should've known that Haylen was a GF after she said 'Maybe you're a investigation-immune godfather'. Hindsight 20 20.

Anyway, the players left are:
3. Regfan
5. Maxous
6. vollkan
7. Hinduragi
9. bgg1996
11. subgenius
Now I want to find the lynch for today, not the scumteam.
I'm out.
3. Regfan
5. Maxous
6. vollkan
7. Hinduragi
11. subgenius
I don't want to lynch vollkan, still. He is the most experienced player. And Haylen may have been scum, but everybody else but me and Hinduragi are near zero, so the only likely scumteam with him would be vollkan-Hinduragi-Haylen.
3. Regfan
5. Maxous
7. Hinduragi
11. subgenius
Up till now, I've been getting a good read on subgenius.
3. Regfan
5. Maxous
7. Hinduragi
I'd like to think that CMAR wondering what role Magnetic had wasn't a scum ploy for townpoints, Hinduragi didn't search through the thread for his own claim before claiming, and scum killed Scott because they thought he may have jailkept/protected me.
3. Regfan
5. Maxous
Now this probably isn't the scumteam. Most likely, one of the people I excluded was scum. Between these two, I would have to go with Maxous.
Not quite sure enough for a vote/lynch just yet, but IGMEOY Maxous.

[bgg1996]

I think Yuras interactions with players is probably the best place to start working out possible partners.

She voted for:
VOLLKAN, because nobody was choosing him.
Surprise_Carcinogen, agrees with me that he hasnt said anything for awhile...
magnetic, For spazzing over one vote.
CuriousKarmaDog, because he sided with her when people started to attack her.
BGG, agrees with subgenius that I was making pointless arguments.

I'd say that the first one could be bussing/distancing, but the rest are probably all going to be town, which doesn't really help, seeing as all of them but me are dead.
The only relevant information I can see is that the two people she listened to when deciding votes were me and subgenius. Since I'm town, that probably gives him some townpoints.

I'd say that Haylen would be more important. I don't think she would bus unless she thought she was about to die, so any of her suspicions from just after she claimed to when her claim was proven valid were actually scum.

[bgg1996]

Also, I don't think that scum-vollkan would risk arguing about how many scum there were, and he did.

[bgg1996]

Regfan, the time difference between your post and my last post is roughly 9 hrs. Which happens to be the 9 hours I particularly enjoy sleeping in. I'm getting sick of people making comments like that when they can't be bothered to find out someone's timezone and think about what that person might be doing during that time.

Who I would be happy lynching today and a summarised why

CryMeARiver - really really not liking his one shot JK claim. All scum would need to do to confirm it is no kill and have him say he jailkeeped a really scummy townie, then get that townie lynched and win the game. Plus how he's played during the game and saying how he knows he's played badly. Didn't he claim early aswell?

Vollkun - I'm not liking how he jumped on what subgenius had twisted. Even if Subgenius had got it wrong, it still looked opportunistic.

Subgenius - For misrepping me. But I can't remember if he made a good defense against that. I want to re-read our 'exchange'.

Not sure.

Bgg - I DON'T KNOW. I might be being paranoid or I might not be.
No lynch - I will feel really gutted if it's mylo right now and we mislynch a townie. Even with power roles. Would this be the safer option? If so why the heck is Vollkun pushing it if I think he's scum? To look good? I don't know.

If we eliminate those three and myself, we get Regfan and Maxous. Hmm, why do those two people sound familiar. Maxous is now looking pretty likely scum, especially considering as I remember it he was one of the only ones who actually opposed a Haylen lynch after it was explained that it couldn't be in the rules.

And yet he doesn't seem

the least bit

shocked or surprised when she self-lynches.
Look at the posts, Maxous Iso #81/82.

From:

Granted I am not familiar with the rules and requirememnts for this game but lynching somebody due to set-up speculation is not a good idea at all

To

Heh, I just finished a game called Amnesia: The Dark Descent, in which the main character got coaxed by a mysterious man into committing mass murders. The main character then regretted the evil monster he had become and sought redemption and release through death.
I found that coincidence amusing.

Also, he referred to Haylen as confirmed mafia after she self-lynched, but before her role was revealed. Maxous Iso#82. That

could

have been done by town, but I say it's because he already knew her role, long before that.

Actually, I noticed that while typing the post.

I'm not quite sure where I stand on Regfan, however.

[bgg1996]

Okay, thanks to wine making me unfit to study, I have gone back and reread Maxous regarding the Haylen-Normal issue as promised.

This wine... Is it in front of you?




More importantly,
Don't anybody think that there is something missing between the post he says its absurd to lynch her, and the one where he acknowledges that she was certainly mafia, and comments on how her epilogue sounded like a game he just finished? Like another post saying that he was surprised that the one he was defending was mafia?