Mini 1390: Game Over

[TheTrollie]

VOTE: toxic

[TheTrollie]

quick post in case I cant get back on here very much.

I, and maybe (probably) some other players may be out of internet at some point due to the hurricane. just in case:

V/LA until post-hurricane

I expect to be able to post regularly again starting Monday, Nov 5 at the latest. Should be able to get a few posts in throughout the week via my phone. Anyway, hopefully I won't lose access at all but we'll see.

Cheery & Abaddon both town
still liking my toxic vote

[TheTrollie]

Bah, this thread has way too many scummy players and far too few Townie ones.

yea

i have read the thread, or rather skimmed it. I need to read in much more depth over the weekend

UNVOTE:
Town:
Parama slot
Abaddon

Null:
Toxictaipan
Deltabacon
Sable Tip (had on slight town until reaction to Toxic)

scum pile:
Idiotking
Tommy
Jason Wazza
Cheery Dog
Radelle

slandaar & Jacob Savage dont have anything on yet

[TheTrollie]

@TheTrollie:

Missed this earlier. In Post 55 you stated you had a town read on Cheery Dog. In Post 140 (your very next post) you now have a scum read on him. What has Cheery Dog done that made you change your read on him? Also, I would like to know why you have a scum read on Tommy, and why you have Parama's slot as town.

yeah it was my very next post, but it was also my first post out of V/LA and it was 100 posts later, lots happened, when i get to posting this weekend and reading the thread in more detail ill explain whatever reads i can. I dont even know the answer to those questions right now. i think cheery is the one that looked like newbtown but then started doing scummy stuff, unfortunatly I anticipate cheery being a toss-up for a while because of that.

dont remember the tommy reasoning, i wrote in my notes that his posts were "scummy" which means I probably wasn't ready to call it a scum read as much as to note that some things he has done were questionable. Ill look into that for u.

parama has been screaming town to me since the beginning of this game. I noted that I should re-read him since other ppl are suspicious of him. also the replacement should give us new info. the way the replacement happened also looked pretty town to me, idk i dont see scum replacing out after missing a few pages.

[TheTrollie]

also RE:parama,

not a single argument in Tommy's case:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4448651

says scum to me in the slightest, I actually disagree with most of tommy's claims, and think his evidence is not in support of these claims. I can go through why if anyone is really compelled by the case.

alternatively, the objections to parama's play tommy makes are exactly the type of vague, go-to objections scum would look for when trying to convict town.

[TheTrollie]

Townie reactions would be the same no matter what the alignments concerned were. I don't know what scum reactions would be like in either case (but it's not my reaction test go I wouldn't have had something in mind)

Anyway that argument is going no where.

I am finding it odd that parama couldn't catch up 3 pages - smells faintly of caught scum
VOTE: parama

this is the scummiest of cheery dogs post.

my main concern with cheery dog is that i tend to be prone to having scum reads on players who's posts i find illogical or lacking good judgement, and a good amount of the time these players are actually town.

[TheTrollie]

There is no good case against Cheery. i.e. note that the case made by delta above consists of a string of rhetorical questions. Delta, you are correct, that vote looks "lazy" but it does not look scummy. I would argue it could be scum-hunting, because it puts parama's replacement on the spot.

Here's a town game of Cheery where he uses the same posting style that I think people are misconstruing as scummy:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

cheery is safe for now

[TheTrollie]

how about this delta:

why does a lack of scumhunting = scum
how do u know he isn't passive town.

I UNDERSTAND THE CASE AGAINST CHEERY. I am not calling cheery town. I am saying the arguments against him are BAD.

Delta, mafia experience?

[TheTrollie]

i gotta do some reading in this game. Was out of town over the weekend, on my way home took a look at tommy. I find he picks easy battles, and his posts put me slightly on edge, but for some reason i can't shake this thought that hes probably town.

[TheTrollie]

VOTE: Radelle

to whoever was asking me to explain my reads: I have explained whichever ones I feel are important (or possible) to explain

[TheTrollie]

@idiot: Radelle was always on my scum list and an ISO gave me more confidence in that read. Here is a cut&paste copy of the notes I made leading up to the list of reads you keep asking me about:

Spoiler: notes

Abaddon - slight town
Toxictaipan - null
Idiotking - slight scum
Parama - town
Deltabacon - null
Tommy - scummy
JasonWazza - nullscum
Sable Tip - slight town, bad reaction to toxic
Radelle - scum overjfication
Cheery Dog - dumb
Jacob Savage - oye
Slandaar

I'm not withholding reasons btw, I am just trying to use my mafia time most efficiently. If i had the time to ISO everyone and make full cases I would, but since I don't I am focusing on those who I have the most to say about.

@Jacob:

(1) I don't get ur spreadsheet thing very much but I will ISO you tonight and see if I can understand. I know you've been answering questions about it so idk if its just that I am not paying enough attention or if I still have unanswered questions
(2) your read on me does not make logical sense. You think I am likely scum because you think I'm defending CD because CD and I are buddies, yet you have

a stronger scum-read on me than of CD

. see how that doesn't make sense?

@delta:
As I have said before it is not that I am so confident that CD is town as much as i am confident that the arguments against CD are bad ones in that they point out behavior that I've seen in town many times before, and specifically that I see in TownCD's meta. there is no

good/convincing

scum case on CD. I believe I was clear on this. Your case against me indicates that you misunderstood my stance on CD. I am not claiming that CD's post are pro-town, I am not claiming that the arguments against CD are

wrong

. In almost every game I've been in there has been a CD-esq player. So far that player has flipped town every time. Why? because people, when they see a player whose thought process they cannot comprehend, assume that it must be because that player is operating under a different set of motivations (ie scum motivations). Look at CD meta. Look at the town game I linked to, and tell me that his play in that game was any less suspicious than it is here. It isnt.

@sherlock in #211 you make a case for TownJacob by saying that the spreadsheet is too scummy for him to be town (or thats what ur case seems like to me). Heres my problem, I find the spreadsheet to be a reason to believe jacob is town. Why the hell does scum need to go through the trouble of building the spreadsheet. they dont care enough about scumhunting to do that. I am not saying this is a reason I think jacob is town, I am saying that if jacob is scum, the spreadsheet is probably wifom, so your case doesn't really speak to me.

why is it you find the spreadsheet scummy?

[TheTrollie]

given:

Chlorophyll is a green pigment

Delta, et al.:

Frogs are green. They must have Chlorophyll in them.

Trollie:

Street signs don't have chlorophyll in them, and they are green too.

Delta, et al.:

Trollie is saying frogs definitely don't have chlorophyll in them.

does my obscure analogy clarify the fault in your logic?

[TheTrollie]

What i am saying, is

not

that frogs dont have chlorophyll in them. what i

am saying

is that to convince me frogs have chlorophyll in them, your gonna need more than just that they are green....ok, this analogy is actually more confusing than it has to be:

Delta: CD does X so CD is scum
Trollie: Town CD does X too
Delta: Trollie thinks CD is town

Here is the crux of the issue, and it explains where you are missing my point:

I am arguing against the

standard

by which you are basing your CD reads
you are conflating that argument with me arguing about the

reads themselves

You say X,Y,Z = scum.
I say TownCD does X,Y,Z
you

conclude

that I am calling CD town

this is exactly what i am contesting

What I am saying is that X,Y,Z is

a bad standard to base CD reads on

I am against calling CD scum based on X,Y,Z, AND i am against calling him town based on X,Y,Z.

MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT X, Y, Z CANNOT TELL US CD'S ALLIGNMENT. hence, it makes no sense for you to claim I am saying CD is town.

tl;dr

Delta and I are on

two different playing fields

I am arguing against the

logic

behind his CD read
He is arguing about the

read itself

this is why he keeps misconstruing my arguments to mean "CD=Town"

I hope that clears things up?

[TheTrollie]

I don't see why you are going to such lengths, devoting whole posts of your 'mafia time' to say that he 'might not be scum'.

The main answer to this is that I refuse to watch someone get lynched because people think there is a convincing case where there is not.

(2) because thinking about CD in the way you are proposing will prevent us from EVER getting a good read on CD, we need to stop muddying our scumsearch with inconclusive evidence cause it will distract us from useful evidence/analysis

(3) Because the CD issue relates to a Mafia-scum issue that has troubled me since my very first newbie game and that I finally resolved in my most recent completed game. I am determined to never succumb to this confusion again. (Slandaar was in that game too, but he died before my epiphany so he might not have much to say about it)

[TheTrollie]

let me know when you have a question i haven't already answered five times

[TheTrollie]

@Sherlock: I actually understand your point of view right now. I would still like you to discuss this though because I think it will help me get a read on Jacob.

In other words, lets spend time on the base-level argument: is Jacob's use of this point-system more likely to come from scum or more likely to come from town. I don't want to start thinking about the implications of this in terms of WIFOMy arguments until I have a better idea of the answer to that question. this may not be very revealing but its worth a discussion

@Jacob: ISOd you. was focusing only on understanding your chart. If you are going to use this system to determine your reads I want to understand it fully. ill start with a few questions:
(1) do you rate the scummyness of each post by a player and then like average it or something? that is my best guess but I see no explicit explanation of your process.
(2) is there a formula or like are there certain behaviors that = point values (i.e. do you have some formula where backtracking = X scumpoints, scumslip = Y scumpoints)?
(3) is each post given a score, or are posts binary (scum/not scum)? Does each post count just as much as any other, or does your system allow you to give certain posts more weight?
(4) if each post does get a score, is that score just a rating of scummyness from 1-10 (like the final scores are) or do you rate those differently?
(5) how many times have u used this method?

I probably have a lot of questions, but its stupid for me to ask them when im just speculating right now. maybe the best thing for you to do would be to write a cohesive description of how your system works. Then I can ask questions once I have some idea of what it is you are doing rather than just playing a guessing game, and assuming your system works a certain way.

[TheTrollie]

@jacob: one more issue I have with understanding your reads (which you can address when explaining your method):

How does the scale work? You have a 10-point scale but you seem to be making very strong claims based on differences in tenths of a point. how large of a difference is there in a 4.6 read and a 4.7 read?

i am realizing that i actually just have no idea how to go about understanding your system. i really need a comprehensive explanation of your system otherwise i have no way of understanding your reads at all

p-edit: @sherlock: ok, makes sense. In trying to understand my misinterpretation of you I came up with a bunch of reasons scum would use the spreadsheet method. I'm gonna hold off on those though because i realized that until i hear from jacob I dont understand the spreadsheet enough to glean anything from it

[TheTrollie]

oh, and one last thing:

delta is probtown based on our argument. unfortunately town doesnt mean not frustrating

[TheTrollie]

you dont see how being able to understand and talk about a players reads is relevant?

[TheTrollie]

@jacob, I think you need to reconsider some things about this method, but unless I find a reason why this affects my reads in this game, I will discuss it with you post game. For now though, I will pay very little attention to your reads because I think your methodology makes systematic rules that prevent you from making reads. I feel that it actually distances the reads you share with the rest of us from your actual reads. Again, we can discuss this post game.

The reason this might be scum motivated btw, is that it allows him to distance himself from his own reads, while at the same time making those reads seem less objectionable/more legitimate. I guess what I'm saying is that it would be a good scum tactic, but its not really a scumtell

[TheTrollie]

i feel like i am talking to a wall. I dont know what it is that I am doing that is making my logic so un-relatable, but let me address this CD issue again:

Trollie's defense of Cheery in Post #162 looks slightly town, but it's terrible logic for calling him town. @Trollie: Have you looked at Cheery's scum meta, if any, to verify that it makes Cheery look town? If so, why did you not provide it?

Delta has a point in Post #165. Cheery does need to do more scumhunting as well.

Okay, Trollie's Post #166 doesn't add up. He earlier specifically stated that Cheery was safe, but now says that he doesn't have a town read on him.

(1) have i looked at cheery's scum meta:
No. I dont have to.

this is what people seem to not get

lets assume that scum-cheery does these scummy things in his play.

that doesnt matter

because insofar as town-cheery does the scummy things that are being pointed out, THOSE SCUMMY THINGS ARE NOT CHEERY SCUM TELLS

(2) for the last time

I HAVE NEVER, EVER DECLARED A TOWN READ ON CHEERY

next person to say I did this better quote a post of mine where i say anything of the "CD is town" variety (before you go wasting your time--ill give you a hint: i never said anything like that). Also lets not keep misrepping me on the "safe" rhetoric. I explicitly said "safe for now" AS IN: I am not going anywhere near him with a noose right now because there is absolutely no substantive case against him. One of the reasons im harking on this point is that im LOOKING FOR SOMEONE TO MAKE A GOOD ARGUMENT AGAINST CD IF THERE IS ONE.

(3) for people asking "why is Trollie going so hard for the CD issue" I answered that question somewhere already. A lot of it is personal. A lot of it is that i wont stand by while scum or misguided town use faulty logic to string someone up.

I am going to table the argument for now because CD doesnt even have any votes on him. if it becomes an issue later on we can talk then.

Until then, key takeaways/

tl;dr

Stop making any arguments that stem from "trollie called CD town" until you can show me where i said that. If anyone is able to find a post where i call CD town I will post pictures of me wearing a mascot Bear head while MattP beats me with a broomstick

[TheTrollie]

ok, CD that doesn't count cause I was talking about something directly related to my argument against ur lynch. but, yes, ok. I at least feel like an idiot now.

there is no 180, i called CD and abb town based on their quarrel, then 5 pages later I said he was in my scum pile, then later than that I explicitly stated that my scum read on him was misguided and have been arguing against others making the same misguided claims since then

[TheTrollie]

You're looking at a lot of little things and putting too much stock into them. We've got a much bigger picture to deal with here. I don't know where you really stand on some of the bigger issues that have taken place in the game

yes, this is a spot-on description of CDs play

[TheTrollie]

@tommy, Delta is confused, but town. Hes vastly misunderstanding every post i make but he is too determined to get me to be scum.

although, i could see a case made that delta's just tunneling me. So maybe he is scum. If you have a case Ill hear it but i dont really see the case so hes town till then

[TheTrollie]

I'm out of town right now but i will make due on my promise

[TheTrollie]

@Jacob

: A few things.

1) When you make your notes, are they for yourself or others?
2) Could you link to the game where you used the spreadsheets and got lynched?
3) I don't know if you've realized, but your vote is on Abaddon. Do you mean to have it on Cheery?

@Tommy

:

I think Abaddon and Radelle are town, and that Radelle is caught up in an angry OMGUS campaign. I could have sworn I caught Radelle sheeping me a while back, and I don't think he/she would do that as scum. But I didn't make a note and I can't find it now, so we'll have to call my position on Radelle a gut read. At deadline, I'd rather kill Radelle than nobody.

I haven't ever sheeped you this game.

Also, in no sense of the word is the conversation and votes between Abaddon, Toxic, and I some sort of OMGUS campaign in any sense of that word or what has actually taken place in this thread. The thing that strikes me here, is you saying you would rather kill me than nobody at deadline. You're already assuming that your BW and case on Parama won't fly, but you seem more sure that the badonwagon on me will.

Why is that? Who are some other scum reads?

Radelle:
- overjustification
- picking easy fights
- too cautious

I am going to take a look at ppl who have kinda slid under my radar tonight. I think this thread needs a new lead.

[TheTrollie]

^didnt mean to quote that post

[TheTrollie]

and cheery is null

[TheTrollie]

he is saying that I should not be defending him if I do not think he is town. He is not understanding that I am not defending him, just demanding that people stop treating bad reasons to think he is scum as good reasons.

[TheTrollie]

^this responds to this:

No, but unless it's been proven that people that don't even have town reads on me are also town when they're defending me heavily, I'm going to believe that they must be scum and wanting to keep me alive to switch with in LYLO.

I don't fully understand what you're saying here. Unless it's proven that Trollie is town, you think he's scum?

That's a really bad reason to want someone dead. Explain yourself.

didnt see there was another page already

@Trollie

In almost every game I've been in there has been a CD-esq player. So far that player has flipped town every time.

Can you provide all this evidence please.
Also, how many games have you been in?

Yes I can. I've been in a fair amount of games. Between 15 and 20 id say. I'd have to go back through all of them to get player names. I can tell u it was RobertMonana in the last game and in my newbie it was PapiBear

[TheTrollie]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

those are the two that were most readily on my mind.

i actually kinda wanna move on from CD because i think its distracting us, but i just didnt wanna see a stupid lynch again (btw, i have been on the side of these lynches until the game before this one, and thats how i learned my lesson)

[TheTrollie]

I personally think we should keep CD around for a few more days just until we get a better case on him and have more infomation.
However my opionion on how to lynch is currently no one, but that will change soon I hope.

My alignment isn't going to change between now and then, do you actually think I am scum now?
If we require a better case on me, is that also the case for everyone else? If not, why am I special?

very dumb

its not that ur alignment will change, its that we will have more to work with when reading u
and that second part: we dont necessarily have bad cases on other ppl so no, ur not special, ur just the one with the bad case

[TheTrollie]

cheery's post is a good example of one that seems very off as town, but then if you think about it there is no scum motivation either

[TheTrollie]

UNVOTE: radelle
VOTE: jacobsavage

Jacob hopped off my wagon as soon as it gained steam, his vote on me from the beginning was silly because a good part of his case was that CD was scum and i was defending him but he had a lesser scum read on CD. His system distances himself from his reads, and he conveniently changed his read on me when I started attacking this system.

[TheTrollie]

Idiot is town. Scum would never call 7 players scum. they dont have to.

[TheTrollie]

really wish you didnt just post that, i just decided u were town but that post does not sit well with me

[TheTrollie]

@tommy: Sherlock's jacob argument fails because it assumes that the spreadsheet is UBERscummy and therefore scum wouldn't use it. I am saying that the spreadsheet is not UBERscummy. scum doesnt need to go through the trouble of a spreadsheet, but if they want to distance their reads or get some help and not get caught easily, the spreadsheet will help a TON. its a way of contributing without taking a stance. Maybe i dont understand sherlock? was his argument something different?

in regards to kwll's parama/absta thing: how do we know "ab" is absta and not abbadon. Kwll?

[TheTrollie]

just iso'd everyone again:

sherlock-null
jacob - scum
Abbadon-leaning scum [this is a change from before. I noticed this time that he backs off easily, piggybacks on other people's objections, and is reaching to make cases]
Absta-town
delta - town
idiot- town
kwll-slight town
Radelle - slightscum - waiting for content/replacement - Radelle had a super scummy start and i weigh that heavily into my read but his last few posts read as pretty damn town
Slandaar-nulltown - I really hope he is town because I like what he is doing in this game
tommy-null - As i think ive said before, I want to call tommy scum but i cannot shake a gut town read
toxic-null- need to go back, didn't read with enough detail
CD-null- didnt even look at. will go back when i have more time

p-edit: sherlock, then I dont get ur argument. Is your argument that you could not imagine scum going through those lengths to generate reads? If that is true can someone else read what sherlock said and tell me if they read it that way? I do not see that argument in there and it concerns me if that is what the argument was. That being said I just might be missing something. In either case, that is a bad reason to think jacob is town because my argument directly answers that point, showing why scum would go through those lengths. if your argument is that scum has no reason to create a spreadsheet, and I show you a reason scum would make a spreadsheet, your argument doesn't still stand.

p-edit2: kwll is town because he does not even TRY to make comprehensive arguments in that post

[TheTrollie]

@sherlock, I do agree, but since I have my doubts on jacob, and i can easily come up with scum-motivation for the strategy (which includes the WIFOM aspect you are eluding to), it doesnt convince me that he is town.

Remind me to answer ur radelle question after we hear back from him/his replacement (i hope you can understand)

@kwll: there are a host of reasons why i might change my reads. I should hope a person is open to re-evaluating their reads as the game progresses.

I have a feeling someone asked this already, but what is ur MS experience? how many games have u been in?

[TheTrollie]

kwll that game is still going on which means you really should stay away from even mentioning it in any other thread. I know the comment you just made seems like it wouldnt affect anything at all but a lot of ppl are very strict on this rule.

[TheTrollie]

yeah i am still feeling slight town from kwll.

his play in his mafia game he is just much more concise and comprehensive which id imagine is due to pressure to scumhunt/have reasons for reads. i see much less of that here so looks genuine.

kwll, do you have anyone who you feel confident is town right now?

[TheTrollie]

I've been mentioning that scum want to keep me alive for LYLO because that's what I believe my scumread of thetrollie is doing with the defending of me based on said meta.

let me make this abundently clear: i have NO intention of letting you live to LYLO. I also have no intention of letting us get to LYLO in the first place (which is why i was against your lynch in the first place)

but also...i cannot fathom this post by cheery. Cheery, are you saying that you consider yourself a bad player/scumhunter? do you not trust your ability to read others? why do you think scum would want to keep u alive till lylo. (i agree they would but its unreasonable for someone to say this about themself because that player would vote according to his own reads in LYLO, and the reason to NOT want a certain player in LYLO would be because you dont trust that player's reads).

Cheery, explain yourself.

[TheTrollie]

'm not actually sure how well I go at LYLO as I've only been there once, in which I was being led by one of the scum players. Although I didn't vote that game, they had almost convinced me (as they did the town that did vote wrongly) that the other town member was scum after we were going after his partner.

can you provide this link?

I shot down the arguments on you because they were bad, and because I did not want a lynch to happen for bad reasons that people mistook for good reasons. This is different than DEFENDING YOU, i was not defending you, i was holing arguments to a higher standard than the players calling you scum

[TheTrollie]

no, ur wrong, you try hard to sound comprehensive and make arguments as scum.

[TheTrollie]

ok, it seems my jacob thing isnt picking up steam. When I did my most recent round of ISOs it became pretty clear that I was wrong about Jacob, but i didnt want to divulge that till I gave ppl time to react to my vote. doesn't look like thats going anywhere

UNVOTE: JacobSavage

with that said my strongest scum read is now Abbadon for the reasons i mentioned earlier
VOTE: Abbadon

I gotta go back to toxic but i dont think ill have time to do that till thursday.

CD is starting to concern me. I cannot shake his LYLO post off as being the same unreasonable stuff i've seen from him and the other players like him in the past. Recognizing your own inability to scumhunt well, and acknowledging that you cannot shake off scum reads, AND all the while still having confidence to be on a large wagon doesnt sit well. I think its very possible that Cheery is setting himself up to be in LYLO with this post. He now has given himself the ability to live to LYLO as town. like, now if he is alive in LYLO he is setting it up to be that it is NOT because he is scum and thus could not be NKed, but instead because he is scummy.

@CD: if you think being alive in-and-of-itself goes against your win condition, why not vote yourself? I get this question is kinda dumb but if you dont trust yourself why in the world should we let you live?

I still contend that CD is a bad D1 lynch, but that post is bad no matter how u look at it.

[TheTrollie]

@ absta & Jacob. Sherlock and I have shared our reasons for thinking Kwll is more likely to be town based on his posts, yet you two assert that he is scum. What are your reasons? Could u tell us why you believe our analysis is mistaken?

[TheTrollie]

@toxic, hence why I directed my question to absta and Jacob, and

not

to you. also I think i responded to your reason against townkwll

i explained my case. Explanations dont require walls, i do not have time to make a wall right now, plus, I dont think abbadon's scum case would really benefit by a wall. When i decide to procrastinate by spending tons of time on MS or when im done with my work ill show you examples of where abbadon does what i am saying he does, if that will really help you.

right, my point is that self-voting makes no sense, but that he is providing us with analysis that says "I am no good at this game and should not be kept alive to LYLO" I am not suggesting he self-vote, i am suggesting he try to improve his game rather than justifying his play by admitting he is incapable of playing to the town win condition.

[TheTrollie]

It might be good to get a second pair of eyes on this, but I have a pretty strong town read on Delta based on our interaction regarding CD. ISO our interactions and find that chunk of posts (its pretty substantial). The way he stays with his argument seems genuine to me

[TheTrollie]

Eh. "It was a trap!" is a piss-poor way to walk back your on-a-limb positions. Granted, it's entirely possible that Toxic's for real here.

Try producing some actual content and we'll see which side you land on, Toxic.

Which, at present, does not include you. It's very easy to make a statement, then sit in judgment as others make your case for you.

I'm calling your bluff. I disagree with your premise, and want you to prove it.

I haven't had a lot of time cause of papers but I've been ISOing here and there while procrastinating. I think there is one scum in {Abaddon/Toxic} but need more time to clarify which scum read is stronger. I'm willing to put my votes on either of those until then.

[TheTrollie]

i must have pressed quote on those a while ago, they have no relevance to my post. I was considering making an Abaddon wall earlier in the day but then got distracted lol

[TheTrollie]

this thread needs more action. very close to deadline (of the day and my paper) and i need something to procrastinate with

[TheTrollie]

I am willing to join a kwll wagon only if pressed by deadline.

Need kinetic action...and abaddon

[TheTrollie]

@slandaar, I never forgot any reads, I have changed them, the only thing i forgot was that i called CD town and that was cause i had called him town way before i had put time into this game...look at the difference in my activity on pages 1-5 v. the rest of the game. THAT is why i forgot i had said CD was town.

[TheTrollie]

Ok, now I have a bit of time I am going to work my way through Toxic & Abaddon to take a closer look at my “one of them is scum” theory

Toxic:

VOTE: Tommy
What a plain username.

I hear taipans are some of the deadliest snakes in the world.

Trufax.

@Cheery Dog: Are you going to participate in RVS?

(1) something about this post reads nervous to me, but only very slightly
(2) the Cheery Dog thing is very aggressive

UNVOTE: Tommy
VOTE: Idiotking
RVS is pretty much over, dude. Why the seemingly random vote instead of something a little more substantial?

This is a stretch to find a reason to vote. Idiot’s vote was on P1 there is no reason to give him flack for randomly voting.

First two posts = slightly leaning scum not much though

ISO #2 /Post #36

(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4440450)

Pretty null, if anything maybe a bit town because he is very straightforward, same thing with ISO #3

UNVOTE: Idiotking
VOTE: Sable Tip

Does anyone else have a serious problem with Sable Tip's post, or is it just me?

This post has gotten a lot of discussion, I don’t find there to be much scum motivation from this post alone. I think I’d be more likely to say something like this as town than as scum.

Toxic & Abaddon have an substantial interaction here about Toxic’s post above. It is this interaction that bugs me the most and makes me think one is scum. I will go back to it and ISO the two of them together.

ISO #7/post #73

( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4442897)
+town points

ISO #8/post #78 he calls to let us wait for parama to explain stuff

ISO#9: hyper defensive post about CD vote, null, something off about it though

This next post of his is long, and my response is long too so im gonna add spoilers to help

Alright, I was hoping to hear from Parama, but apparently that's not going to happen.

Spoiler: part1

I didn't want anyone to make my case for me, or to simply answer with a, "Yes/No", answer. I didn't want anyone to do anything specific. I do see some issues with Sable Tip's post, but I was trying to gather information with mine. I forced the players to go back over his post and look for something they may have missed, and to take a stance on it, as well. This helps us see how players are generally reacting to the game, who's paying attention and catching the little things, etc.

This I follow

Spoiler: part2

I was expecting smart/cautious townies to react much like Abaddon did, saying something along the lines of, "Yeah, I think I see what you're saying. However, I want to see if our thoughts corroborate. What are you seeing?" or perhaps, "I've went back over his post and I still don't see anything. I'm calling your bluff." (Though I have a feeling the general reaction from the town was less, "I've went back over his post," and more, "I'm calling your bluff anyway.") I expected some comments about having my case made for me, but I thought a reasonable town would try to work with me a little bit without handing me a case -- especially from those who had a town read on me. It was well within reason to put the burden of proof on me and still have this work, but I digress.

I figured scum would be more apt to just blurt out what they saw wrong with the post, looking for approval and hoping to get easy town points. Alternatively, I was expecting scum to be critical of my approach without much consideration of what Sable Tip's post actually says. Why pretend to go scum hunting when you can just attack a player for his strange approach to the situation and get away with it? The drawback is that you have to take this with a grain of salt because a townie that doesn't know any better could easily do these same things, but nothing is ever concrete in scum hunting. Still worth it to see who does what, though. I was trying to get everyone's reaction to both Sable Tip's post and my own, though I mostly got the latter. Regardless, I still think there's a bit of good information here we'll be able to use.

I do not buy this though, there is NO WAY that post was a reaction test. Maybe it was retrospectively one, but there are so many better ways to reaction test than this. The question “does anybody else see…” means either (1) that he wants us to say, “no, show us” or (2) that he has a good reason to refrain info, or (3) that he isn’t actually sure there is something off. SO I have a few problems with this. First, if this was a reaction test, as he claims, then why is he able to so perfectly explain what is wrong below? If what he says below is true, then why would he find it scummy for someone to say “yes, blab la bla” Second, If Toxic wants to reaction test based on sable tip’s post, the way to do it would be to get sable tip to say something showing that he did not consider the issue that Toxic is bringing up. Something about his parama read, or even telling Sable tip what is wrong and seeing if Sable tip has a bad response to that.

Spoiler: part3

As for Sable Tip... Doesn't anyone find it odd that his 3 suspicions (Cheery Dog, Abaddon, and Parama) are all suspicious of Radelle (to varying degrees), but he lists Radelle as a neutral read? If I had any confidence whatsoever in my reads, and all 3 of my suspicions were expressing doubt over the same player, that player would be pretty far up my town reads list. I'd expect him to list Radelle as leaning town at the very least. He's not being consistent with his reads, and that's scummy. Also, he hasn't really provided

why

Parama and Abaddon are scummy, unless I am to take it that being aggressive and harsh is somehow scummy.

Another thing that bothered me was his reference to Parama's Post 47. I can't tell if Sable Tip is trying to buddy me here or what. That part of his post altogether doesn't make much sense to me. It seems like he’s trying to use it as a lame excuse to vote Parama, but at the same time it reads sort of like a defense so I’m wary of buddying. Maybe I'm biased here because it's something concerning me, but it really rubbed me the wrong way.

K, I kept reading the ISO: Toxic reads fairly town except for this one issue (the reaction test). So I don’t really know what to do with him. Time to take a look at Abaddon.

tl;dr

Look at my comments in the last post of Toxic’s that I quoted. That is the scummiest thing in his play so far. Leaning town on his recent posts but not declaring him anything past null because of the reaction test thing.

[TheTrollie]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO IDIOTKING. here is that wall you've been asking for. kinda glad u made me do this actually:
Abaddon Time:

VOTE: Toxictaipan

For randomly voting when he could have put down a more serious vote when questioning Cheery Dog.

^Fake. Overdoing it.

^Scum #1.

unvote, vote: Radelle

2 more to go. Who are your buddies, Radelle?

^Yep.

CD says “you think they are scum but ur not voting them”

Unvote
Vote: Radelle

Actually, thought I did. Oversight corrected.

WOW!!! MAJOR + Scum points. NOT for failing to vote at first as everyone else has said, but for IMMEDIATELY giving in when being accused of a misstep. There is NO REASON he had to vote radelle right away. He certainly can vote her after that post if he wants, but Its fine to support someone else’s argument and then keep ur RVS vote to see if that goes anywhere, especially since Toxic had posted since being voted by Abaddon AND Radelle. Immediately giving into CD is scummy, especially the way he did it.

Eh, not convinced on that count. The chainsawing is TOO obvious to be real. More likely he's just an idiot.

So I'm an idiot for calling you out for doing something idiotic like leaving your vote in rvs while attacking someone?

So idiotic, whether I'm scum or Town, that the only plausible explanation is that it was a simple error, rather than intention. I practically said "I'm going to vote you for that, right now," then failed to bold my vote.

He is hyping up his claim now, he was NOWHERE NEAR failing to bold his vote. He just didn’t say anything about being worth voting at all.

Just you. In fact, instead of prompting other people to explain what you found so bad about it, how about you man up and explain it yourself?

Yeah, don’t like the instant jump on Toxic here, nor do I like him answering for everyone by saying “just you”

So he can estimate when people are failing to answer because they're likely asleep, and when they're failing to answer because they're intentionally dodging the question.

Made up my mind. Cheery Dog is probably new Town, making obvious inquiries he thinks are incisive. New scum probably would not be going this far out of their way to put their foot in their mouth, they'd probably be laying low at this point.

JEEZE…look at that CD read. It’s bubbling with qualifiers and shit.

Radelle, I don't need to be unfair to find you scummy. Attacks on scum that are just plain bad only give you ways to worm your way out of it by calling foul.

You're still scummy, but I won't abide no-logic attacks just because they're aimed in the right direction. That's hypocrisy of the worst sort, and I won't put up with that.

Is the second part of this post not EXACTLY what people think is scummy about me? That I defended someone I did not have a town read on? That means (1) Town-Abaddon understands that it is pro-town to prevent bad arguments from substantiating reads, but is voting someone for doing the same thing and (2) that if you find me to be scum for this reason, you should also find Abaddon scum for the same reason.

Then there are posts about the reaction test, these are fairly null. I will say that I can see scum motivation and null motivation for those posts but cannot see them as being pro-town.

Like I said, you're completely missing the point. The reaction test, as stated, has very little to do with Sable Tip's alignment, or with which alignment Toxic assigned to him. Toxic took a thoroughly neutral post and made a bold declarative statement, then refused to back it up. The reaction test was for peoples' reactions to Toxic's actions, not Sable Tip's post. He could have emphatically declared Sable Tip Town while refusing to explain why for a near-identical effect. The slight variance of whether Sable Tip was scum or not utterly pales in comparison to the far more distinct question of how people would react to Toxic's actions.

Now he’s on the side of toxic for the reaction test?
Also, side note: sable tips alignment is SUPER important. Either way, town will either see it and take a stab, see it and ask toxic to clarify, or say no, wha. If sable is town, toxic is right that scum MIGHT feel like they are being given the opportunity to attack someone, but honestly I don’t think they would because they don’t know specifically what toxic is talking about and pulling something out of their ass is a bad idea. If sable is SCUM, then now SCUM will likely say “no, what” or “I think, but I want to hear what you have to say”

in conclusion

The reaction test is worthless, at the very best its worthless till a sable slot flip.

^This absolutely reeks of opportunism.

Seriously rethinking my NewTown position on Cheery Dog.

Bah, this thread has way too many scummy players and far too few Townie ones.

^this absolutely reeks of opportunism.

If Ab thinks CD is newb town who is bad at scumhunting but trying then there is nothing wrong with CDs post.

The “bah” comment is sooooo overdone.

I'm really disliking a lot of what Trollie's had to say lately. It's coming off as really disingenuous. The two-faced hedging about CD (particularly 266) and the blithe manner in which he takes things that are not conclusive and makes definitive statements about them (such and such makes this person Town or scum, 283 & 285 contain good examples).

Unvote
Vote: Trollie

I’m biased cause this post is also where he votes me, but OMG this post is fucking laughable. Look at how much he does to try to justify him jumping on this wagon. His last reason is basically that I give reads.

tl;dr

Pretty content with my vote on Abaddon. I believe this clears Toxic slightly, so I am going to go with slight town on toxic.

[TheTrollie]

Sorry for spamming but

absta jumps on my wagon with no reason, then once slandaar places his vote on kwll jumps right back. oye. Idk what to do with that.

@mod, with the lack of abaddon action since his prod and kinetic not making any substantive post yet, if this continues is it possibe we can get a deadline extension

[TheTrollie]

ok, yeah, toxic is town.

I just do not like the reaction test. even though I dont think it makes sense, I think you genuinely do, so im not really concerned with it.

@toxic: why is that?

[TheTrollie]

I just spent my MS time for right now, if someone has the time to make an absta case I'd hear it. I have been stubbornly assuming he was town due to my town-read on Parama and nothing else.

[TheTrollie]

let me ask you something delta, when i flip town, what is that going to tell you? cause id say relatively fucking little.

I dont know what to do to stop this dumb ass wagon on me except to say that you are all barking up the wrong tree and better get your heads in the game

[TheTrollie]

that doesnt answer my question.

so that you will play my game, IF i flip town, what would it tell you?

[TheTrollie]

One of the big accusations on Trollie is that his defense of Cheery was exclusively meta.

please inform me of th escum motive here

[TheTrollie]

YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND MY ARGUMENT THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME SCUM.

people were saying things about cheerys play made him scum. i showed them that those were because of cd's playstyle and therefore were not good reasons to call him scum. NOTHING ABOUT HOLDING ARGUMENTS TO HIGHER STANDARDS IS A SCUM TELL. you r really king of the idiots, aren't you

[TheTrollie]

I see a lot of little scummy things in absta’s play. Most worrysome one is where he says he would want to lynch Kwll based on his post of reads but then waits to put his vote down. Looks like he is trying to not lead the wagon.

I misread Parama’s first few posts, and thought he was implicating a Radelle/Abaddon team. He was actually kinda defending abaddon by shifting blame over to CD. I’d buy an Abaddon/Absta team. Need to look more closely before willing to switch votes. Abaddon is way scummier as of right now.

[TheTrollie]

VOTE: Toxictaipan

For randomly voting when he could have put down a more serious vote when questioning Cheery Dog.

^Fake. Overdoing it.

^Scum #1.

unvote, vote: Radelle

2 more to go. Who are your buddies, Radelle?

^Yep.

Buddying

VOTE: Abaddon

You agree they're scum but not voting them?

NUMBAH TWOO

Para defends ab

Eh, not convinced on that count. The chainsawing is TOO obvious to be real. More likely he's just an idiot.

this is a crucial post…is this bussing/coaching or is this genuine?

I could see that as being a reaction to the fact that they had each buddied up too much in the very first page but it could just as easily be genuine.

Eh, not convinced on that count. The chainsawing is TOO obvious to be real. More likely he's just an idiot.

So I'm an idiot for calling you out for doing something idiotic like leaving your vote in rvs while attacking someone?

So idiotic, whether I'm scum or Town, that the only plausible explanation is that it was a simple error, rather than intention. I practically said "I'm going to vote you for that, right now," then failed to bold my vote.

Let me bring your attention back to this post. This post is probably the scummiest post in this game. He tries to (a) convince us that what he did was SO FUCKING STUPID that no one would ever do it intentionally, which I disagree with as discussed in my AB case. There was no pressure for Abaddon to vote when he did. CD created this pressure and then Abaddon reacted as if “OH SHIT I MADE AN OOPSIE” (b) claim that he said anything of the “im going to vote for that” sort (which he didn’t) but that he forgot to bold his vote (which is a

bold

faced lie [no pun intended]).

In post 39, Slandaar wrote:
In post 15, Radelle wrote:
For randomly voting when he could have put down a more serious vote when questioning Cheery Dog.

In post 17, Abaddon wrote:
Forgetting to vote/Forgetting where vote is: The scum motivation is 0, it is a mistake, but it is a mistake that is more likely to be made as scum than town ergo a scum tell.

VOTE: Abaddon

Actually as scum I pay more careful attention to my votes more often than not.
So I argue that it's a towntell.
Now is the point where you realize this is subjective, take it to MD after the game, realize Radelle was trying to push this as a legit reason on page 1, and then change your mind about Abaddon, mmk?

More defending Abaddon

Post #157 (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4452192)
Absta starts right off with the Abbadon thing, note, choosing to take the OPPOSITE side as parama.

Post #200 (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4458616)
Absta votes Abbadon. Interestingly, he votes for the same reason some people, specifically delta, are voting me. That he feels Abb should not have defended a scum read of his. I, of course, disagree, because bad arguments prevent scumhunting and allow opportunistic scum to push a mislynch, but it seems I am alone on that belief in this game (oh ,except for that Abbadon feels the same way but for some reason is voting me because of it.) I would say this looks genuine, but again, there is a chance that absta noticed how much Parama and Abbadon were buddying and therefore chose to bus hard. I don’t think I agree with that theory, but it is a possibility.

Slandaar, just because my scumhunting is not as one-dimensional as yours doesn't mean you get to apply your standards to me.

Quite frankly, I felt Radelle's early vote on Toxic for a nonsense reason was pretty obvious to anyone with experience, and you don't get Townpoints for pointing out the obvious. This is especially true in the first page or two, when scum are looking for cheap and easy ways to distance themselves from each other without really committing to it.

I'm quite capable of separating logic (this looks suspicious) from emotion (hey! you agree with me! I like you!). Why aren't you?

Don’t think I noticed this post first time I went through Abb. That middle paragraph gives me scum vibes. I’ve had the same feeling before but its hard to articulate it. Its mostly the carefree nature of the post and the wordiness of it I guess.

Post #244 (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4461149)
He tells me to stop asking about Jacob’s system. I get that he thinks its irrelevant but something irks me about this post because He had no idea where I was going with my questioning yet he tried to quell it. What if what I had to say was uber important? Don’t like that he tried to prevent conversation on a topic that was being taken for granted completely without discussion. Hes really asking me to not look for reasoning in someone’s reads which is bad.

Post#256(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4463181)
See how he sneaks the unvote in there without any reason/acknowledgement that he thinks Abb is now town? No explanation on that unvote whatsoever, and also no discussion of Abbadon anywhere near that unvote.

Post #274 (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4465150)
Never noticed this before: Absta is actually the first one to point out post 55 where I say that abbadon and CD are both town. But he doesn’t say “Look he says they are town” he asks “what do you make of post #55 by trollie?”

Post #294 (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4467651)
Absta asks idiot to replace out. I don’t know if id say this is scummy, but it was certainly weird as fuck. Idiot was not being extremely inactive at all. I can see scum motivation behind this, because it looks more like scum trying to pick an issue to look town than town that is genuinely concerned (because he tries to make an issue where there is none)

Absta asks me for ISOs of the games I’ve had CD-like players in before who were lynched with a town flip. I provided. Hey

@Absta

you read those?

Post #346 (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4473492)
Absta says “I would actually lynch that^^”about kwll but does not vote until
#401(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4475296), after someone else had voted kwll as well

#439 absta votes me with no reason

#443 (his next post) goes back to Kwll no reason

#459 Self-votes

#460 puts his vote back on me
Calls tommy’s case “terrible. If he’s town..”
The terrible thing is bad because it doesn’t say anything about why
The “if he’s town” is bad because it adds an unnecessary qualifier so he can hedge some OMGUS without OMGUSing

#489 “Sherlock case sucks, wtf is wrong with this town?”
Sherlocks case was on me

Note that the two cases he responds to (one for him being scum, one on the person he is voting being town) he just says “wow that sucked” without giving any reasons. This is bullshit. Hes just trying to get us to think they suck, or support him without taking on any of the responsibility to support his claims.

tl;dr

Pretty good scum read on Abbadon.
Leaning scum on Absta.
There is a pretty nice story of how this scum team is interacting with one another.

So I’m gonna go ahead and say I am comfortable with the Absta lynch. I’d rather lynch abbadon, but I think an absta flip may be more informative, and the approaching deadline is an issue.

VOTE: Absta

I would go back to Abbadon though. Maybe now that he is back in here we can get more from him anyway.

[TheTrollie]

Lol. Look how fast the waggon on me grew and look how everyone tries to make a case. This is just bad, i'm only going to respond to Sherlock for now. Fuck Trollie's wall.

SCUM CAUGHT

[TheTrollie]

I'm all ears if u'd like to engage in a damn thing I've said

[TheTrollie]

you suggest

I

vote kwll!?!?!?!?

omg lynch this guy. guaranteed scum

[TheTrollie]

For those voting me:
if CD is town, what is the ScumTrollie story?

[TheTrollie]

but you were called scummy for similar things in the first place.

MOREOVER, i dont give a fuck whether they CALLED you scummy. I am saying you were just as derpy in that game as you are here, so your derpyness is not a scum tell its just something you do. JESUS CRIST..

AND WAIT.

AGAIN: WHY DOES SCUM TROLLIE DEFEND YOU CD? IF YOU ARE TOWN WHY DOES SCUM TROLLIE

PREVENT YOUR LYNCH

[TheTrollie]

This one's obvious. He pointed out what he thought was a soft claim. Completely defeats the purpose of the advice, "Don't do this again..." There is no pro-town motivation to point out a soft claim.
Is there a Pro-scum motivation? Absta-scum would point this "soft-claim" out in the scum QT if he had to. Why would he need to point it out here?

HOLY SHIT!!! idk how I missed this slip earlier. ABSTA SLIPS THAT HE KNOWS THERE IS DAYTALK.

more votes. go go go. Absta is 100% scum!

[TheTrollie]

Ok, let me get this straight. You are saying that I got into a 2 page long, heated argument with Delta (while there was only ONE, ONE, ONE ONLY ONE, vote on you) in order to build town cred?

Come on CD. Really think about that. Go through my ISO and tell me that I look like someone hoping to get town cred expecting six more people to magically start voting you. If i was trying to gain town cred, I would have waited for you to have a wagon on you, and i would have just listed you as a fucking town read instead of getting in a huge argument about how stupid the arguments against you were.

On the other hand, Absta is vote hopping, deflecting all attacks against him, telling me, A SCUM READ OF HIS, that i should vote kwll, and he FLAT OUT SLIPS that he knows there is daytalk.

which case is better?

[TheTrollie]

ok, so now whats the case against me?

[TheTrollie]

Sherlock, that Trollie argument doesn't cut it at all. Going just by his join date and blank wiki, it doesn't look like he's experienced, and inexperienced scum would do the exact sort of Cheery buddying defense thing that he's done (forgive me if Trollie said he was an alt somewhere)

I am undefeated as scum thus far on this forum biatch

[TheTrollie]

If his buddy was getting pressured on D1 it makes sense for inexperienced scum to try and save said buddy, because they wouldn't necessarily know to just let the guy die and look townie by bussing.

THIS ASSUMES THAT CD IS SCUM. WILL YOU OPEN YOUR EYES AND READ WHY a TOWN-CD makes your case on me non-sense. WHICH MEANS YOU MUST FIND CD TO BE SCUM

prior

TO FINDING ME SCUM

[TheTrollie]

probably 15-20.

I'll keep this attitude up until you decide to be smart enough to join the right wagon.

[TheTrollie]

im not aarogant, im confident in my reads

remind me again why im scum if cd is town? how many times should i ask this before i get my answer?

[TheTrollie]

CHEERY IS NOT NECESSARILY TOWN. ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE BASING YOUR ARGUMENTS ON UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSUMPTIONS.

but if there is no case on me if cd is town, ur vote is on the wrong person

[TheTrollie]

you fuckers are really making me claim Day 1. Jesus.

ABSTA HAS YET TO EVEN RESPOIND TO A SINGLE ARGUMENT IN MY CASE.

Im a fucking 1-shot Vig.

Doctors be on me tonight.

[TheTrollie]

god i wish idiot was scum

[TheTrollie]

Slandaars still on my null list so there is no way I'm letting him turn us 180 right now. if absta flips scum slandaar and abb are both under the microscope. i havent read through the last few pages yet really, will do some reading now

[TheTrollie]

Slandaar is a slight town read.

Lynch me to stop the no-lynch going through.

Fair enough. You could have also voted yourself

yeah, abstas post is a bit weird, but weird is all I will call it.

looking at the vote count, even if absta is somehow town, that flip would at least give us a TON of info.

[TheTrollie]

hey btw, if absta flips town, slandaar should be under the microscope tomorrow
if absta flips scum, slandaar should be under the microscope tomorrow

Slandaar needs to be a focus of D2 no matter what

[TheTrollie]

is there a prod on kinetic

[TheTrollie]

Cheery. About to leave for tgiving. Have long post about my thought process. I wrote everything down before making up my mind. fuck though I was hoping he'd flip scum. Btw I lied yesterday to avoid nk. I'm a regular vig.

[TheTrollie]

VOTE: abbadon explanation forthcoming. Slandaar also on my scum list though not sure if that team makes sense have to check

[TheTrollie]

Still in car on way home (#traffic) will post my notes from last night in full when I return home

[TheTrollie]

here are my notes from the night as i wrote them (i havent even re-read them yet). They are very stream-of-consciousness so sorry about that:

CD-thinking viging CD or Abb. Their quarrel early D1 makes both being scum unlikely.
-definitely dont want him in LYLO even if town, and with the hype over CD there is no reason for mafia to kill him. This alone might be enough to warrant the CD vig.
- most ppl expressed interest in directing my shot to CD
- A CD flip would help us analyze the wagon that was on me.
-CD may not get any more readable. rather let town use the lynch on someone we can discuss more.
-he picks up on arguments very opportunistically (ie. parama and there was one other)
- post #167 is very scummy, with his "you can string me up..." paragraph. Very scummy post
- his adamant stance on me is very strange because it stems from me wanting to gain town cred with his lynch. I showed him why that made no sense, he agreed it made no sense but still wouldnt budge. even after my claim he didnt budge. That being said, scum cheery knows absta is town and doesnt switch over to that wagon. maybe trying to gain town cred when absta is lynched? maybe trying to stay on the wagon of claimed PR? idk, this is weird as scum.
-did more meta on CD, I am starting to think my defense was pre-mature, he is a lot derpier than in some of his other games. Also makes references to his own townie-ness a lot more here
-If Cd flips town, Delta hopped on an easy target and then once I started in and recieved votes of my own, delta jumps on and becomes most vocal.
-CD jumps on right , then Abbadon

Side-note: need Kinetic action on D2 desperately, as I go through this stuff, I realize that Radelle is so crucial in this picture.
-not worth vigging Kinetic because it might be super easy to get a read on that slot once he starts participating


Abb-i have explained the scum-read, Absta and his town read slandaar start a Abbadon counterwagon. worry is that scumSlandaar is trying to gain town cred by preventing Absta lynch and at the same time directing our D2 mislynch
- total lurker

Side note: since Absta flipped Town, anyone against my lynch from the begining and on absta probtown

sidenote: CD and Abaddon are the two ppl still on my wagon in VC 1.14

Abadd wasnt active, slandaar and town absta on abaddon

any other good vigs?

_Sherlock_ - TOWN dont see him actively starting the absta wagon while there is already a huge town wagon. I understand him staying off of a town wagon, but starting a new one rather than going with one already in existance makes no sense as scum

Tommy - probtown - i like his analysis in post #454. i dont like that he doesnt support my abaddon wagon. Tommy's been giving me a lot of trouble from the beginning. Whenever logic says scum on him, my gut says town, and whenever logic says town, gut says scum. I think this will be easy to clarify as we see more flips though, since he is actually doing quite a lot of work in his posts.

Kwll - unsure - i had a gut town read at first but now not sure, he does switch from me to absta fairly quick, think that might be more likely town but idk, have to look at where that is in relation to my claim. I feel that most of the reasons to kill him would be the same as some of the reasons to kill CD, but I also think Kwll may get easier to read as the game goes on, and I think his flip would be less helpful than CD's flip.

JacobSavage - town - His one scummy thing is starting the wagon then hopping right off of it as it gains steam. overall though, i was pretty confident he was town, and I think his flip would be way less usefull than other's flips, plus hes a pretty solid town read so if hes town he might get NKed, definitely not killing him.

Idiotking - null - the only reason I think he is town is because of that one post where he calls everyone scummy. That seems likely to come from town, but can also be scum throwing shit at the walls to see what sticks. Hes certainly not the best kill target but i think D2 needs more Idiotking examination.

Absta-conftown-DEAD

CD- already discussed in full

Abadd- already discussed

Slandaar - Needs to be a focus of D2, he weilds a lot of town conrol for no apparent reason. Dont trust him.

Kinetic - Need to keep him alive to get info from him D2. unfortunately we have no idea what his play will be like but its not worth vigging someone before we know what their deal is.

Delta - I need to review delta. I have only one reason to think he is town and that may not have been a good one. If I vig CD though, we will get info on delta.

Conclusion:
Got lots of places to go for D2. vig of CD is best because
(1) good chance scum
(2) this is where town wanted to direct my kill (including absta who is now conftown)
(3) Given CD's posts, and voting patern (like not unvoting me ever D1), even a townCD is probably a detriment to town
(4) CD flip will be relatively informative.

Reasons not to vig CD
(1) Scum is going to expect CD vig.
not seen many scum docs in this forum.

k vig CD

[TheTrollie]

add lurking to my abbadon case btw

[TheTrollie]

Happy thanksgiving. I prolly won't be on till tonight. At the Macy's parade. Fun fun fun

[TheTrollie]

Do not massclaim

[TheTrollie]

@Slandaar, why would scum jump on the absta wagon instead of joining the wagon on me.

I think the best course of action is to look at the absta wagon and my wagon. We have three flips, sucks they are all town but should be a lot to go off of. I am going to do a new list of reads based solely on interactions with conftownies and compare that with my other list of reads

[TheTrollie]

Ok,

eventually I want to do a thorough look through of the thread now that we have a lot more info, but for now I'll say this

ConfTown-Dead

Absta (VT)
Tommy (VT)
CD (VT)

Claimed Town PRs

Idiotking - neighbor with JS
JacobSavage - neighbor with Idiot
TheTrollie - vig

town reads

Sherlock

- gut (worried because this may just be halo effect for being on my side yesterday)

Delta

- This is one of my first stops when i get the chance. I very hastily declared Delta town for his argument with me but I do not think I should have. I need to re-read our interaction now that I am not as riled up by the argument and make sure it looks town. I think i spoke to this in my notes last night actually

kwll

- willing to entertain the other side of this argument.

(sorry being rushed by fam now to get out of house) so far: my three town reads listed have some skepticism i need to double check. formatting from now on not as neat cause rushing

abaddon - scummy - need more from abaddon. unwilling to do much until we hear from abaddon AND
Kinetic - dumb to keep playing this game like we are with pieces of the puzzle missing. if kinetic is scum we are letting a pretty dumb scum-strat get the best of us

Slandaar - gut says town, logic says I gotta be careful. There is a good story for smart scumslandaar.

jacobsavage - if one of the two claimed neighbors is scum, itd be this one. I want to double check why i said he was town, but i do think it was a good reason. something to do with his reasons for unvoting me i think (though that also means he started a wagon and hopped off which is a scumtell usually)

Idiotking - like i said in my notes from last night. I think I am putting too much weight into one very pro-town post. Want to re-read that post to be sure I am not being mislead

I think thats everyone. Sorry i know this post was repetative from some of the stuff i wrote last night. My plan while we wait for Abaddon/kinetic action is to go back and solidify my town reads

[TheTrollie]

checked up on:

Delta - I have no idea why i was convinced delta is town. He could very easily be scum

Idiot – still think town

Slandaar – still on fence, like i said, I can see slandaar as scum, but i'd prefer it if he were town lol

[TheTrollie]

someone remind me why toxic is town?

[TheTrollie]

A bit under the weather today, I am going to try to post soon but in case I don't just wanted to let you all know why

[TheTrollie]

now to our new segment:

random sickly thoughts of TheTrollie as he ponders this game in bed

thoughts on Slandaar/thor/kinetic team? Random thought i had after skimming some of the newer posts but i am not exactly sure what caused it. Will look into it.

Don't have a problem with Kinetic waiting to catch up before voting. I actually appreciate that.

@sherlock

I do not think Delta's referencing to a read on Tommy is a townslip. It is inconclusive but it is definitely not a town slip. Scum spends the whole game pretending to not know the alignment of players, and would probably be even more likely than town to make that mistake. Ok, i forgot that tommy was the NK so that would be a pretty silly mistake, but I am still unwilling to call this a town-slip.

I am interested in this "bait" deBAIT (lololol). I haven't read the toxic/kinetic stuff in full but bait is a loaded term so reactions to it/reactions to reactions are likely to give me something to work with.

think we need to do more work with the flips. I haven't seen any good attempts at using our 3 conftown slots to support someone's reads. I didn't vig my null-scum read over my scum read for nothing last night. I want to see someone make something of these flips. I will try to when I recover and catch up. oye. lots to do

[TheTrollie]

yes, and in your previous life (as Abaddon) you were among said lurkers

[TheTrollie]

I am just noting now that i COMPLETELY forgot about toxic in both my night rant and my more recent recap of my reads. Idk where he was that I didn't see him at all.

[TheTrollie]

...good point...dont think there is a so...

you win this time

[TheTrollie]

okie dokie, all caught up:

@thor

when you say you are confirmed town, are you confirming this yourself or have i missed some vital piece of evidence confirming your townieness?

Kinetic is winning this battle. toxic, your arguments are starting to look bad to me.

I disagree, why do you think that? I think Toxic is probably winning at the point of your post, since then I have altered my opinion (which ill get to next) but at the time of this post I see Toxic as the one winning if i had to choose.

on toxic v. kinetic

(1) I still think the reaction test thing is a big problem. I would put more effort into reading toxic's explanations of the reaction test, but i think my big problem with it is that he talks around the issue and is so vague when confronted that I doubt I'll find anything of value. I just do not buy that Toxic made that post thinking it was a reaction test. I find it even HARDER to believe that he made the post intending for it to be a reaction test AND that he expected it to work like he claims. Does anyone have toxic meta (ill look into this shortly).

@toxic

what is your MS experience? I see you have been on the forum for a good amount of time. Do you consider yourself a highly experienced player?

(2)

let's deBAIT

Ok the issue here is that neither of you is being responsive to the other's claims.

Toxic:

here is what you have to gain by "baiting" kinetic -- f he pulls an Abaddon-post-CD-call-out as we saw on like pg. 1 or 2 (i.e. if he said, oh, yeah ok, ill vote) you would call him scum for that. That is what he is saying.

that being said, his phrasing is odd from town, because if he is town then what you are doing is not "baiting" him, or maybe it is but he could just easily give his reason rather than pushing the blame on you for "baiting"

it comes down to this

Kinetic

is reacting to the simple question of "why note vote?" by shifting blame to

Toxic

, using the loaded term "bait" rather than straight answering.

Toxic

is denying the accusation of "baiting"

kinetic

and focusing so much on the question of whether it was "bait" in the first place.
Both are cases of deflecting responsibility/scummyness.
Neither has confronted the issue at hand. Now that I've made it clear what the issue is, please respond. let me make it even easier for you:

@Toxic

were you trying to catch kinetic not-voting on a scum read with that question? Moreover, do you understand why Kinetic calls this "baiting;" do you see the motive he

believes

you are acting off of? Finally, do you have a problem with Kinetic waiting until he has read the full thread to vote, or

only

with the fact that Kinetic labels your question as "baiting?"

@Kinetic

Why do you think Toxic was trying to "bait" you? You seem to have a good reason for not voting, why not just simply give him that?

[TheTrollie]

FOS JacobSavage

Weak. Just weak. It's too hard to make a decision, so you run away with your tail between your legs and settle for a lynch that is very unlikely at the moment.

were there things in the QT that supported this FOS as well?

[TheTrollie]

He's attacking exactly the same two players as Radelle to avoid making new enemies. I've already addressed his case against me above, and his case against Abaddon looks mostly like associative tells between Abaddon and me.

couldn't this be because he knows Radelle's alignment, so if Town-Radelle felt a certain way based on the way you interacted with him, Kinetic would also feel that way. They both share the same intel that we lack--that slot's alignment.

This is more of a question than a statement. Is it generally seen as a scum-tell when a replacement sheeps the replacee? I think there are a lot of good reasons for the replacement to do that, so i don't buy it.

[TheTrollie]

thor - i agree about kinetic v. toxic, but toxic is ALSO deflecting by refusing to engage at the level of debate that kinetic is engaging (i.e. that he had motivation to "bait") he keeps saying "i didnt bait why are you saying bait" that is a good question but it doesnt ANSWER kinetic's question really.

also great, haha, mod-confirmed in the title.

[TheTrollie]

I've ANSWERED his questions, and effectively the ones you are asking here as well. I am not deflecting anything, but he keeps asking the same questions over and over again. It is quite obvious he wants me to do something else and use that as evidence against me. That is why I'm calling it him baiting

but you called it baiting BEFORE he had a chance to respond to your answer to his question. He HADN'T yet harked on the issue. he asked the question ONCE and you called it baiting. THIS is why I have a hard time vindicating you.

[TheTrollie]

I haven't read the new stuff but skimmed toxic's response to me. Toxic's claim is what I expected, that he was just applying pressure. +scum to kinetic for going for the "bait" rhetoric from the beginning.

Ok, given toxic's experience I might let the reaction test slide. My biggest problem is that I dont really think its a reaction test, though HE may consider it one. The reason it isnt a reaction test is because reaction tests are usually loaded posts which are begging for a certain response. your explanation of it makes it seem like while you WERE scumhunting, you were not setting up a "reaction test" as the term is usually used.

The "dont bait me" line COULD have been explained as a reaction test, as could the "why you not voing" line. The reaction to the "why you not voting" is pretty scummy. and the reaction to "y u baiting me" (which is scummy in and of itself), sounds town.

now.....I will say that I can see ScumToxic responding to all the pressure on the Sable Tip question by going "uhh...Reaction test...uhh" so if i find meta which says Toxic should be better versed in reaction test rhetoric, he gets +scum points for that

[TheTrollie]

As a note, I'm going through finals right now (I might have mentioned it here), so if my participation drops a bit, that would be why. Last final is on the 6th though, so its not a long period.

ditto (except for me i think my last final is on the 8th or 9th). My activity is going to be irregular and unpredictable for the next 10 days

[TheTrollie]

Remind me why you're not voting for me, again?

Because I'm still catching up.

I'm not going to rise to your bait scum.

I've ANSWERED his questions, and effectively the ones you are asking here as well. I am not deflecting anything, but he keeps asking the same questions over and over again. It is quite obvious he wants me to do something else and use that as evidence against me. That is why I'm calling it him baiting

but you called it baiting BEFORE he had a chance to respond to your answer to his question. He HADN'T yet harked on the issue. he asked the question ONCE and you called it baiting. THIS is why I have a hard time vindicating you.

Bait: To entice an action out of someone else. He wanted me to vote.

I knew that during the first question. I didn't think he'd harp on it like he has, but it is obvious that even the question itself is a bait.

I feel that the way bait is used in the first post is clearly NOT the way it is defined in the latter. Bait's connotation (of being a "gotcha" tactic) is clearly understood in Kinetics first post. in the first post he is NOT simply saying "you cant tell me what to do," he is saying "I am not going to play your game and get caught in your "gotcha" tactic" Now I think he is denying that

[TheTrollie]

I know I'm a terrible person for missing so much, but I'm definitely going to catch up tonight and post a quick synopsis of my thoughts. This weekend I'm going to do a complete analysis of everyone who I think is scummy, which last I remember was Slandaar and Tommy.

dude...Tommy's dead. This is twice now that ppl have forgotten this.


Kinetic v. Toxic:

I see instances of both of them doing a bit of backtracking and like misrepping eachother. Its hard to tell if these are a result of their heated argument getting to their heads or if its because one of them is scum.

[TheTrollie]

@kinetic - i'm pretty sure i have a post in this game that looks at the Toxic/abaddon interactions extensively and concludes they cannot both be scum but I'll go back and re-read it cause i kind forgot why...think it was about the quarrel over the reaction test maybe.

@thor, im not gonna let u come in here, and keep deflecting away from our heavy suspicion of your slot. Yes, what you are doing is good (in some cases) and helpful, but we need stuff from you to help us figure out whats going on with ur slot. I want a list of reads. Yeah, i get it, your lazy and dont wanna catch up. Too bad, just use what you've read so far then, idc, but i want reads.

[TheTrollie]

Can someone remind me of what the Scum-Sable Tip argument was?

[TheTrollie]

kinetic is town

I am tired

[TheTrollie]

i think 807 is pretty town

[TheTrollie]

guys im crammin tonight, will catch up tuesday probably. I dont remember if i said this but what i found to be town motivated in kintetic's post was his assertion that thorr was being unhelpful. It looks town to me, will check out the new stuff later

[TheTrollie]

I am still papering, tried catching up just now. Way too tired. Sorry guys. I'm gonna try to attack this tomorrow...finals suk

[TheTrollie]

ok, here's the deal people.

I am drowning in work and as much as I'd rather be spending time on this game, i haven't been. I am going to read through all of this new stuff in detail in the next 24 hrs (i hope to god i get it done in 12 hrs but honestly, not sure). I have skimmed through some things, but the recent discussion has been too heated/intense for me to feel comfortable deciding anything without really sifting through it.

did anyone ever remind me of the scum-sable case? If you remember who made that/what it was and can point me to relevant posts that would be great.

[TheTrollie]

I am asking because I asked for it a while ago and because it's important to my understanding of this game and therefore of my reads (including non-kwll reads). Note that I ask because I do not want to spend time searching for it when I can spend time catching up instead.

Next question?

[TheTrollie]

fyi trollie car incoming

[TheTrollie]

Damnit, I definitely wanted to quote more posts than these but i lost my Q+s...anyway.

I have to get back to my paper but now im caught up.

My stance on Kinetic is that he is town. 807 still feels town to me 858 also feels town. I see some instances of bad things by kinetic, but mostly i think people are just disagreeing with his theories and feeling like there is no way they could come from town because of that. Kinetic comes off as very genuine, and as if he really believes the things he is saying. On the other hand, I really do not see why Thor is getting away with his play. He keeps deflecting by exploiting some of the disagreeable things Kinetic is saying.

I believe Thor is scum. Thor, the argument against you is firstly all of the reasons Abaddon is scummy. I have made an argument to this effect in the past and so have many others. If things went my way D1 we would have lynched Abaddon, but then when suspicion shifted to absta he did not react well.

I really gotta get to work, but I can say this. I know its not a very detailed case but this is what I can offer. I plead with other players to really take a close look at kinetic v. thor and decide which of them looks more genuine. Thor

(1) deflects a lot, especially by saying kintetic has no case, has no case has no case.
(2) seems to keeping himself to a higher level of restraint than Kintetic. Kinetic is putting himself out there. He has given us a ton of content since his feud with thor. Is this scum trying desperately to avoid a lynch? No, i dont think so. I think it is someone who GENUINELY believes the things he is saying and is pleading with us to not stupidly lynch him when he is town. Thor, on the other hand, did not try as hard to kill his wagon, instead he kept asking questions so that he could convince us that the wagon on him was not well founded. It is well founded, it is very well founded.
(3) Thor is using a tactic (the one above) i see a lot of scum players use and that is very successful usually. The one where you keep laughing off the case against you. Now i dont know thor meta, and i dont have the time to check it, so maybe this is his town play as well, but I see no town motive from his defense. He is 100% defensive and accusational. He keeps saying kinetic is dodging and is making meaningless claims. He is waiting for other people to fill in the spaces in his argument. do not let him get away with this.

personally, I would like to see Thor back on L-1, and I would like to hear a claim. dont let him avoid confronting his scummyness until we get bored and find someone else to focus on.

now...

Kinetic might be right... but he is obviously role fishing.

Did i miss something? why is he speaking in third person?

oh and,

But his POE doesn't.

Bad arguments are bad play. Bad play is easily manipulated by scum.

It's bad that I have to defend Thor from crappy arguments, but good Lord, people. This is the literal definition of taking the easy way out.

Really? I mean really? May I remind you that WHEN I DID THE SAME THING YOU WENT SCUMTROLLIE CRAZY.

[TheTrollie]

Trollie, my problem with Kinetic is that his initial read on Thor scum was dependent on toxic scum. Then when he was finally caught up he votes Thor in post 772. I believe this is the crux of everything.

so you had a reason to suspect Kinetic is scum. noted. fair.

But the truth of an accusation is often informed by the reaction. We all do scummy things sometimes as town. That does not make every one of us scum. When pressured, Thor looks scummier than Kinetic. There is no one argument or one post that should seal our reads.

Thor is acting scummy.

Kinetic is acting like town who genuinely holds those theories that he is espousing to be true, though almost none of the other players in this game agree. It is not THAT he is disagreeable that makes him scummy though. This is the same issue I had with the case on CD yesterday. Someone can think crazy things as town, the question is, do they believe what they are saying, or are they saying it to avoid getting caught. Thor is avoiding, Kinetic is preaching.

p-edit: please check the syntax of that post. I do not understand what you are saying

[TheTrollie]

sidenote: id like to know if jacob has anything to offer about his Idiot read based on the QT. Im surprised we havent learned more about that QT, as of right now we haven't gained much from that claim.

[TheTrollie]

anyone who hammers without first claiming intent should expect a nice big bullet in them tonight, courtesy of yours truly.

just sayin'

p-edit: toxic is null. i've gone back and forth on him. I did a wall on toxic yesterday, so try checking my ISO. What "play" of kinetic's are you referring to?

[TheTrollie]

Konowa:

#448 is my toxic read from yesterday. It was pretty inconclusive, and of course there is much more that has happened since then, but maybe it will give u an idea of what i've been thinking about his play

[TheTrollie]

on top of that: my position is that the Abaddon/toxic quarrel was not bussing, so if Thor is scum, toxic is probably town.

Honestly toxic has slipped under my radar since that wall though. As you may recall, I totally forgot he was in the game when I went through all of the players on a few different occasions at the beginning of the day.

[TheTrollie]

...i hope thats not all you have to say...

[TheTrollie]

I don't feel mocked. Nor do I feel any different about your slot. Maybe not rude enough?

[TheTrollie]

Let me play the Slandaar game for a sec:

*ahem*

Slandaar

(impersonated by TheTrollie): THOR...link to town games where you were at L-1 for a while?

*bows*

How'd I do?

[TheTrollie]

Why not just search for them yourself - I was pretty dismissive of your case for a reason. If you're town and believe what you're saying you believe then I don't know what evidence will do for you regardless.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... &sr=topics

As of right now, I am not joining the kinetic wagon (well, also because if i did it would cease to be a kinetic wagon and become a dead-kinetic wagon)

I need more time to process the Kinetic v. Thor issue. I know that is not optimal because of the looming deadline. If Thor is going to escape my vote, I am going to need a reason to vote elsewhere. Thor's recent posts are better than the ones from before though he may just be changing his play to address my issues with it. Also I just had a very significant discussion with someone in RL so I am in a weird place and that might be why I believe thor right now. Will re-read once my head is clear.

NOTE: I am telling you all right now that I may take a complete 180 on this post, and come back saying thor is obvscum. I dont know what is attributable to my mood and what is from thor's play

p-edit: im not reading those posts till later i really have to get to work

[TheTrollie]

How can you continue to ignore the fact that Kinetic has claimed he has no time to present a case against Thor, but continues to post frequently and get into wall fights with anyone who opposes him? I mean, seriously, are you guys actually reading this game or not?

because i've been there before and its a lot easier to get caught up in heated argument than it is to go back and make a case.

[TheTrollie]

^this is just wrong

Thor has stated a lot of stuff. he may not have listed reads but I know his feelings about almost every player very well. Thats part of the reason i'm more interested in seeing his flip than yours

[TheTrollie]

I don't buy that hes scum. I really dont.

p-edit: i'm gonna shoot who i damn well pls. Right now i think i have a good idea on who is getting the bullet independent of what happens with this lynch, but ill have to see how i feel when its time to make the decision.

[TheTrollie]

Thor, I really would like to hear you claim. I don't know if it will be possible to change my mind absent hearing a claim.

I also want to repeat that anyone who hammers without first claiming intent (and giving time for ppl to respond) better grab their kevlar jacket and run.

[TheTrollie]

...getting tired of kinetic calling everyone scum...

[TheTrollie]

I will tell u what

UNVOTE: thor

But I am only doing that assuming you claim (because I want to make sure I get a chance to see the claim before someone has a chance to hammer)

If you are unwilling to claim that vote is going back on

[TheTrollie]

^when the decision is to claim or be lynched, of course the player should claim to help avoid their mislynch. Thor thought he had plenty of time could prevent his lynch without claiming. If he says that he will take the lynch without claiming, then I agree that such play makes little sense.

[TheTrollie]

on phone, is thor being consistent with his meta with us refusal to claim?

VOTE: thor

[TheTrollie]

Some don't get it. Claiming at L-1 is NOT a given anymore. Claiming at intent to hammer is.

I get that. I was explicitly asking if hed go against that convention and claim sooner

[TheTrollie]

What part of me saying I won't do you think is me just gakking with you?
NO I WILL NOT.
Make sense?

yes, which is why i put my vote back on u...

[TheTrollie]

about what...

[TheTrollie]

because....MAYBE you'd claim upon request

[TheTrollie]

as i said, i do not think I can be convinced to vote elsewhere unless I get something new (a claim).

[TheTrollie]

1) Kinetic, during the same period, kept saying 'I'll do the case when I have time, I'll do the case when I have time'...so...?

he was making a promise, you were harping on a single thing

2) This almost feels silly to have to respond to. "Thor didn't react to avoid his lynch...instead he reacted in this way that stopped the wagon on him and avoided his lynch." I mean, whut?

yeah, your reaction was to laugh at your lynch/make random vapid claims and hope that other ppl agree

3) Yes, I am 100% defensive and accusatory - meaning either I'm defending myself or accusing people and...wait...whut? Also, even Kinetic has pointed out that I made an attack on Kinetic in like my 2nd or 3rd post. I don't need blanks filled, I called him scummy for actions and then later voted him for those reasons.

ill look for that attack

ur responses just dont do it for me

[TheTrollie]

I an so much more comfortable with flashwagoning Jacob than I care to admit right now. I im off to the Dr. when I return ill go over Thor v. kinetic and see if anything changes

[TheTrollie]

@kinetic: so say you die, and you are town. Who should I vig?

[TheTrollie]

I have to think about this for a second. The wagon analysis is scaring me.

Kinetic (5): toxictaipan(null), Thor665(scum), Idiotking(town), _Sherlock_(town), Konowa (null)
Thor665 (5): Slandaar(null), Kinetic(very unsure), kwll(probtown), JacobSavage(nullscum), TheTrollie(town)

If one of these is town and the other is scum, well, my strongest town reads are on the kinetic wagon. Since i've recently lost my confidence in town-kinetic, things become less clear.

What was the Radelle/Abaddon story? They were pretty set against one another right?

Ok, heres what i need to know. If Kinetic flips town, who is obvscum. Thor & ...

(btw, doctors better be on me again tonight obvs)

[TheTrollie]

Here's what I say.

Right now we are just under 2 days from deadline. We are at a stalemate. It makes little sense to wait around until someone switches a vote solely to avoid a no-lynch rather than to vote with their reads. Lets not let this get to that point. I suggest we start looking at other things. This is not to say that we are not lynching either kinetic or thor today, but that there is still time in the day to discuss, only scum benefits from us being sitting ducks. At the very least it will help us figure out whats going on with these wagons.

[TheTrollie]

anyone open to the possibility that this is town v. town?

[TheTrollie]

Here's a fun game to play while we wait for someone to change their mind:

Welcome to:

WHAT'S UP WITH JACOB

Spoiler: his voting pattern (its not good)

EBWOP I am happy with Sherlocks reasons. therefore
VOTE: TheTrollie

@TheTrollie. Fair enough, I would love to hear your opinion on how to improve it afterwards. (Just to clarify that is a genuine statement not passive aggression)

@kwill, hi welcome thanks for coming at such short notice. hugs all around.

@all did we ever get a consensus on whether to address radelle as a male or female.

UNVOTE:
Trollies recent additions I feel are slightly more town motivated and as such I think my previous read may of been off.

I am afraid I am inclinded to side with you absta in this case,
That post seamed lazy and just taking various points that he has read and just posting them. Seeing as I am currently not voting,
VOTE: kwll
On the other hand well done

IdiotKing

, Your post was good and though many the townpoints to you, however would you mind saying who you would most like a lynch on today and any reasons why you choose them over someone else?

@Mod, can I ask whats happening with the deadline / whether it is staying where it is, as I may not be able to get on tomorrow. Sorry to bug you

First things first I trollie is maybe a lynch for another day, but as the kwell wagon doens't look like it is going anywhere and with the deadline only a day away, its to time to file that for another day, so:
UNVOTE:
Fuck. Of the two biggest wagons I currently hold both as town. I think that might be an issue...
So it comes down to who I think is going to provide the most information. Now that i don't know, I mean Trollie has made lots of posts on people , but Panama's early posts could be an interesting re-read with a flip...

GAHAHAHAH TOO MUCH TO CHOOSE FROM!!!
VOTE: Kwell RETREAT!

of the two I think that absta is most likely scum, Trollie looks much like I do when I am about to get D1 lynched. so
UNVOTE:
VOTE: absta

The town response would be to try and defend himself from the accusations and/or explain the intentions behind what is percieved to be scummy.

Also by the end I was starting to warm to the idea of Radelle town. Also its a lot easier just to respond to people that it is to build a case against some one, so I believe Kinetic to be honest.

VOTE: Thor665
Will you just claim please...

I agree, he's been obvscum all game
UNVOTE:
VOTE: JacobSavagr

Spoiler: his constant rolefishing

@absta
1. not a day one lynch but I replaced in there https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=13332
2. Okay my be was I was an SK that game but sssh https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=14128
3. Finally this one D1, VT (yes I know, I was a terrible player then) https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=13625

But yes any protective roles really should be on Trollie tonight now but other than that I think not wasting it until its needed is best although it would be a good test of his claim.

What/where you applying to? [/offtopic]
Anyway in my humble opinion Trollie should be considered a invalid lynch target for the rest of the day, I mean there is little point arguing over whether Trollie is an SK/Vig/2nd Scum team when we could be focusing on finding the other scum, we can control his kills in order to make sure its not too harmful to town.

Also I would say yes to mass claim but thats just me

You could argue that. I kind of just want a claim from him before the night phase.
My view is that thor is more scummy and has stronger links.
Also do you have anyway of knowing his alignment i.e. are you neighbours / masons?w

WE ARE NOT LYNCHING ANYONE UNTIL THOR HAS CLAIMED
Its just silly, Trollie will probably shoot the other tonight so...

His votes are really weak. I mean REALLY weak. He relied on this overly cosntructed system before he could even give us his reads, and then voted weirdly based on said system (voting me when i was only scummy if CD was scum). he hops on my wagon, then hops of. He does all these other hoppy things at the end of D1 and just now, HE JUST POSTED WHILE I AM WRITING THIS AND HE HAS STILL NOT TAKEN THE VOTE OFF OF HIMSELF!!!

Then there is his CONSTANT rolefishing. The massclaim was a really dumb idea. he continues to ask for claims and tries to figure out who im gonna shoot tonight.

i just got called into the dr's office but Jacob's play is def weird

[TheTrollie]

first of all, YOU are not vigging anyone. So lets get that straight.

And if you've been reading you would know that i've already addressed that issue.

[TheTrollie]

@mod: any thoughts on if we will be getting an extension/ when you think you will know?

It's crunch time for me guys I am cramming right now. need to write 2 long research papers and study for a final in the next 72 hrs. ill do what i can to stay on top of this game

[TheTrollie]

^yeah but that is not actually a reason to think I am wrong....since it does not mean that there are not town on your wagon.

I think idiot and sherlock are town, but that doesnt make them right all the time

[TheTrollie]

Someone explain to me why that post is scummy. I see nothing but town in that.

Let me explain very simply why I am voting where I am. We have two suspects with equal pressure on each of them.

Kinetic seems more genuine to me. He is putting himself out there and hoping we believe him.

Thor, on the other hand, talks in a way that assumes his innocence and compels me to throw out my claims.

Thor wants something from me, Kinetic is just trying to help us make the right decision.

Now, is this simply because thor has a way more aggressive playstyle than Kinetic? possibly. But it could also be, as I think it is, that Thor has more to lose by being lynched than does Kinetic. People may disagree with me, but I think that is because Thor is scum.

[TheTrollie]

^is that intent to hammer?

dont make me vig u...(lol i love this fuckin role #powerhungry)...if that's intent to hammer make it explicit

[TheTrollie]

also, stupid question, the 4 other ppl on the Kinetic wagon probably have a problem with u hammering lol

[TheTrollie]

because

(1) Abaddon was the scummiest player in the game, you have not been so abhorrently town that I can magically decide to ignore Abaddon's play

(2) because i dont trust u, ur strat against ur lynch was scummy, ive already explained why

Sherlock gave what was pretty damn well close to intent to hammer....r u waiting for him to stat this intent explicitly before u claim?

[TheTrollie]

oh yeah, i forgot you were an idiot...

claim thor

[TheTrollie]

I asked kinetic not cause I was going to consider his opinion more than anyone else's, but because I wanted to get a concrete list of who he actually thinks deserves the bullet, rather than his indication that everyone against him was scum as he had previously kinda indicated.

[TheTrollie]

After Thor's claim (if he does claim, which i would assume now he would since there is intent to hammer),

NO ONE

should hammer until

(a)

we get a decision from the mod regarding whether the deadline will be extended

(b)

we hear from as many players we can after the claim for possible counter-claims, as well as returning to the Kinetic v. Thor discussion which will now be further informed by the role claim

[TheTrollie]

to my knowledge, he has called everyone on his wagon scum at some point in the last 10 or so pages.

i wanted something more concrete...in any case what does it matter why i asked. it doesnt change that I am not asking for you all to vote on my kill target. if you want you can go ahead and suggest things to me, I was just making it clear that now that I let town direct my kill to verify my role, I am not necessarily going to follow a vote tonight. I am not going to just shoot randomly, or without careful thought though, so don't worry about that. I will make my decision, and yes, it may help to get some suggestions from other players, but I am not going to bind myself to anything.

[TheTrollie]

^ur getting an incorrect feeling

[TheTrollie]

UNVOTE: Thor
calling ur bullshit though

random selection? didn't u not come into the game till D2?

[TheTrollie]

is it customary for replacements to get nightaction info of their replacees?

thor u gonna protect me tonight if u arent lynched?

[TheTrollie]

I'll honestly admit that I'm not sure. I kind of feel like I'm about the only sane player in this game and that the town would benefit more from Thor alive than Thor preventing a scum nightkill by getting himself dead.

so pick between protecting me and yourself i guess. I wont shoot you.

[TheTrollie]

okokokokok....

I was gonna wait till tomorrow, but we need to consider a _sherlock_ lynch. explanation forthcoming.

[TheTrollie]

Sherlock has vote hopped a lot, but there are two posts in his ISO that make him very town, so nvm

VOTE: Slandaar

[TheTrollie]

yeah but sometimes you will change ur vote because of one post that just doesn't look as bad as you make it out to be. Like i said, there are at least two posts in ur ISO though that if you are scum fml and good job.

[TheTrollie]

have we heard from everyone since thor's claim?

yeah ok, body guarding yourself makes no sense lol, I had just woken up

[TheTrollie]

if the deadline doesn't move and we are still nowhere in a few hours I am willing to vote Kinetic.

[TheTrollie]

even if we assume all are telling the truth, i think its not too town heavy

they are NOT masons, they are neighbors. if one of them is scum id argue that role becomes as equally likely to be pro-scum as pro-town if not more likely. Also, there is no reason to believe that Scum do not have a PR or two.

finally, a vig, a bodyguard and a 1-shot bp is really not that unreasonable.

[TheTrollie]

and if he flips town? I could say a lot about what i'd learn from a lot of people flipping scum.

[TheTrollie]

I might be down to massclaim. At this point i think a PR claim is a counterclaim. I don't think things are unbalanced right now but if we get 2 more pr claims those are functional counterclaims

[TheTrollie]

VOTE: thor
this is the best lynch today

[TheTrollie]

uhh...no?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Masons

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Neighbor

[TheTrollie]

jacob, why the change? i thought you were on the thor wagon before?

[TheTrollie]

I have an idea of who i think i'm going to vig. I will definitely do another extensive review of the day/game as I did last night before I send in my decision.

[TheTrollie]

it is very clear who Jacob meant with that vote. the rules are as long as the mod knows who the vote is on and its bolded it counts...

[TheTrollie]

slandaar did u send in a night action last night?

[TheTrollie]

I shot slandaar.

so if u didnt use ur armor, then what?

[TheTrollie]

ohhh...that makes much more sense.

I shot slandaar. Sherlock?

[TheTrollie]

slandaar what is ur read on konowa?

[TheTrollie]

Sherlock...what is ur explanation of Slandaar's surviving the night?

[TheTrollie]

My condolences Konowa. Wishing the best for you and your family.

[TheTrollie]

i have barely read toxic's posts but quick skim gives me town-vibes

sherlock: u think mafia targeted thor or did thor guard the kill target?

If mafia had roleblock, i see no reason not to use it on me N1, since they knew I would likely kill to confirm my role, unless they knew I'd shoot town cause they knew my reads...i think the likely candidates for my kill N1 were probably CD and Abaddon so i guess not blocking me made sense.

is it common to have BP scum?

@sherlock: why would u investigate slandaar when you had a feeling I was gonna shoot him?

[TheTrollie]

Wait so have we finished the massclaim?

Sherlock

- cop (delta inno N1, Slandaar guilty N2)

you said that you know slandaar is not town, but not that you know he is scum, can you elaborate more on the nature of your investigative role/ results

Trollie

- Vig (shoots CD N1, Slandaar N2)

Toxic

- VT

Slandaar

- 1-shot BP (Saved from Trollie Shot N2)

slandaar has never explicitly claimed town alignment to my knowledge

Konowa

- VT

idiot

- neighbor

jacob

- neighbor

i think thats all that are alive wanted to do dead too but dont have time...

Idiot & Jacob - Neither of you are claiming to have any other powers besides having a QT correct?

[TheTrollie]

i have a lot to say. i have been milling over this game in my head while driving home today. still not home yet and have a paper to do by friday but i will get all over this shit this weekend.

DONT RUSH ANYTHING.

lets use our time wisely

i need someone to let me know how likely it is to have a BP mafia member.

so sherlock u believed the BP claim but thought he may be lying about alignment?

[TheTrollie]

Also, my role pretty much confirms that Trollie is lying. Claim that you aren't a full Vig or be signaled off as an SK.

WAIT

how did i miss this. explain now.

[TheTrollie]

sherlock... u gonna answer. my?

[TheTrollie]

Unvote right now idioit. right now.

NOW DO IT NOW

there is 0 reason to place a vote this early in this day right now before we all have had time to mull this over...plus i have a bunch of stuff to say before anyone gets lynched today

[TheTrollie]

Also, my role pretty much confirms that Trollie is lying. Claim that you aren't a full Vig or be signaled off as an SK.

WAIT

how did i miss this. explain now.

How likely do you see the possibility of a full Vig and a full Cop in a Mini Normal?

r u saying i should be voting u right now?

[TheTrollie]

IDIOT REMOVE UR VOTE LITERALLY RIGHT NOW

[TheTrollie]

I don't remember many people calling you scum so whoever you killed that would probably be the case
He was a PR
It makes me look terrible which goes well with your fake claim

I see you still havn't shown these flaws. How amazing.

BODYGUARD. He's going to die anyway. I have absolutely no advantage killing a scummy player that thinks I'm town and will probably die by other means.

Again, I have no need to set anything up in order to get you lynched. However, this argument will go on forever because we are confirmed scum to each other.

I haven't shown you those flaws because being at school kinda hinders your ability to make long posts.

really stupid arg, he could have been protecting ur kill target

Also, my role pretty much confirms that Trollie is lying. Claim that you aren't a full Vig or be signaled off as an SK.

So:

Sherlock - Town Cop
Konowa - Vanilla Townie

Trollie - Vigilante/Serial Killer

Slandaar - Mafia ???

toxic
Jacob
Idiot
kwll

As long as Trollie has shots left, we should be able to get rid of the Mafia easily. I very seriously doubt that Jacob and Idiot are fakeclaiming neighbors together, so there's max one scum in them. Therefore, there has to be at least one scum in {toxic, kwll}. It's simple; Trollie shoots one of them. If they flip town, we lynch the other one, leaving us with the Neighbors and Konowa in LyLo. If they flip scum, we sort it out from there.

Right now, I'm calling a Slandaar-toxic-Jacob scumteam.

i thought u think im lying...

p-edit: IDIOT I swear to god listen to me if we mislynch this game is likely over, you need to take that vote off right now.

[TheTrollie]

+ we NEED THIS DISCUSSION TO GO ON MUCH LONGER

otherwise town is literally done. I have thought this out 30 times please listen to me

[TheTrollie]

right...with possibly 3 scum out there who can all hop on and vote.

u are putting him at risk of a quicklynch.

get that vote off.

i need to read something

[TheTrollie]

it will be obvious but they can end the game with a mislynch today...do u understand we are in MYLO?

[TheTrollie]

I see two possibilities:

1. Slandaar is Bulletproof scum
2. The Mafia have a Roleblocking ability and used it on you

I find the first one more likely, simply because 1-shot Bulletproof makes sense with the given roles in nhammen's ruleset.

lets assume slandaar is not bulletproof scum cause as jacob said its probably not the case.

Mafia would roleblock me u think? id say not. I never said who I was gonna shoot. I doubt they killed thor cause he was gonna be an easy lynch today which means they probably shot someone (me) and thor protected that person. A mafia roleblocker would have roleblocked THOR then.

So is someone a town roleblocker and not telling us?

p-edit: YOU ARE ASSUMING I SHOOT TONIGHT AND HIT SCUM. I SHOT LAST NIGHT AND NOTHING HAPPENED...come on think about this.

I am not saying Slandaar is town, i am saying you NEVER let the vote get to L-[number of scum] in this position this early in the day....EVER

[TheTrollie]

uh...because there either is one or Slandaar is likely town ergo Sherlock likely scum...

I have reason to believe there is a roleblocker btw

[TheTrollie]

Unless we believe Thor targeted Slandaar which I'd say is unlikely

[TheTrollie]

I'm waiting till everyone posts. I still suspect role blocker

[TheTrollie]

But you have no evidence to back that up. You said you shot a claimed bulletproof, and he didn't die,

which is the exact thing that would happen if he were bulletproof

. As you said, scum would have had a better reason to block Thor, not you, so why wouldn't your kill go through?

Because you shot a freakin' bulletproof, dummy.

And how does what you're saying even mesh with what you

just posted?

I see two possibilities:

1. Slandaar is Bulletproof scum
2. The Mafia have a Roleblocking ability and used it on you

I find the first one more likely, simply because 1-shot Bulletproof makes sense with the given roles in nhammen's ruleset.

lets assume slandaar is not bulletproof scum cause as jacob said its probably not the case.

Mafia would roleblock me u think?

id say not.[/b] I never said who I was gonna shoot. I doubt they killed thor cause he was gonna be an easy lynch today which means they probably shot someone (me) and thor protected that person. A mafia roleblocker would have roleblocked THOR then.

So is someone a

town roleblocker

and not telling us?

p-edit: YOU ARE ASSUMING I SHOOT TONIGHT AND HIT SCUM. I SHOT LAST NIGHT AND NOTHING HAPPENED...come on think about this.

I am not saying Slandaar is town, i am saying you NEVER let the vote get to L-[number of scum] in this position this early in the day....EVER

So mafia wouldn't roleblock you, they'd have blocked Thor and tried to kill you, but since Thor died, it means either scum shot at Thor or Thor wasn't roleblocked. But now you're screaming that mafia totally might have a roleblocker guys, and we should totally be freaked out by this,

even though it doesn't mesh with the scenario you just posted

.

Holy COW, dude. The logic part of your brain just shut off.

Holy COW, dude. The reading part of your brain just shut off.

[TheTrollie]

what!!!!!!!?????

what r u saying...and what if I SHOOT TOWN

What then?
huh?

[TheTrollie]

I dont want this game to rely on my shooting scum tonight...
anyway i think there is a town RB and they should claim now.
My thought is that they didn't want me to shoot cause my scum reads were there town reads, or they were a scum read or something

p-edit:
Ok, all high and mightly. fine, waste a day of interactions during this 1-on-1

THIS IS THE DAY WHERE EVERYTHING WILL COME TOGETHER IF YOU LET IT