Mini 1390: Game Over

[absta101]

@Radelle

@Absta: The game hasn't completed yet, to be honest. I did have a quick random gander at Cheery's meta in completed game Open 437 and he seems a lot more active throughout most of the game there, actually. I'm going to backtrack a bit and say his meta is a toss-up for me.

Don't make claims like that anymore unless you can back them up.

Are you okay with me referring to you as "She/her" in a sentence?
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@Idiotking

Radelle seems town for Post #81 and #105 where she shows that she's checked Parama's "recent posts". Going this far to get someone to contribute without calling them scummy makes little sense from scum's perspective, especially considering Parama is an easy place to keep your vote. Do you agree?
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@Tommy

absta101's case on Abaddon is guff. He wanted to choose one of the two leading bandwagons apart from his own, so he plumped for this one and then tried to construct a reason.

This attack from you is weak.
What suggested I wanted to choose one of the two leading bandwagons?
Why am I not town who genuinely finds Abbadon scummy?
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@Abbadon

- I specifically bolded my question so you wouldn't miss it.
Answer it.

[absta101]

@Slandaar - You see Radelle as town yet Cheery as scum.
Does the fact that you and Radelle have opposite reads on Cheery affect your read on Radelle?

[toxictaipan]

@absta101: How does Post 224 affect your read on Radelle?

[Abaddon]

Absta, your question was stupid. You basically asked me why I was making a stand on principle. It's because I believe that making bad attacks on someone that is actually scummy weakens the case against them, and makes it easier for them to wriggle away. They can point to the bad attacks and discredit them, and the good ones get discredited in the same breath.

I ignored it the first time because this is not complicated logic, and because I already explained it in this thread. Pay attention.

[TheTrollie]

@idiot: Radelle was always on my scum list and an ISO gave me more confidence in that read. Here is a cut&paste copy of the notes I made leading up to the list of reads you keep asking me about:

Spoiler: notes

Abaddon - slight town
Toxictaipan - null
Idiotking - slight scum
Parama - town
Deltabacon - null
Tommy - scummy
JasonWazza - nullscum
Sable Tip - slight town, bad reaction to toxic
Radelle - scum overjfication
Cheery Dog - dumb
Jacob Savage - oye
Slandaar

I'm not withholding reasons btw, I am just trying to use my mafia time most efficiently. If i had the time to ISO everyone and make full cases I would, but since I don't I am focusing on those who I have the most to say about.

@Jacob:

(1) I don't get ur spreadsheet thing very much but I will ISO you tonight and see if I can understand. I know you've been answering questions about it so idk if its just that I am not paying enough attention or if I still have unanswered questions
(2) your read on me does not make logical sense. You think I am likely scum because you think I'm defending CD because CD and I are buddies, yet you have

a stronger scum-read on me than of CD

. see how that doesn't make sense?

@delta:
As I have said before it is not that I am so confident that CD is town as much as i am confident that the arguments against CD are bad ones in that they point out behavior that I've seen in town many times before, and specifically that I see in TownCD's meta. there is no

good/convincing

scum case on CD. I believe I was clear on this. Your case against me indicates that you misunderstood my stance on CD. I am not claiming that CD's post are pro-town, I am not claiming that the arguments against CD are

wrong

. In almost every game I've been in there has been a CD-esq player. So far that player has flipped town every time. Why? because people, when they see a player whose thought process they cannot comprehend, assume that it must be because that player is operating under a different set of motivations (ie scum motivations). Look at CD meta. Look at the town game I linked to, and tell me that his play in that game was any less suspicious than it is here. It isnt.

@sherlock in #211 you make a case for TownJacob by saying that the spreadsheet is too scummy for him to be town (or thats what ur case seems like to me). Heres my problem, I find the spreadsheet to be a reason to believe jacob is town. Why the hell does scum need to go through the trouble of building the spreadsheet. they dont care enough about scumhunting to do that. I am not saying this is a reason I think jacob is town, I am saying that if jacob is scum, the spreadsheet is probably wifom, so your case doesn't really speak to me.

why is it you find the spreadsheet scummy?

[Deltabacon]

I actually checked Cheery's ISO in that game, and he is more coherent with his ideas, more hard-working in his scum-hunting and overall more town-y to me there than here. I don't see why you are going to such lengths, devoting whole posts of your 'mafia time' to say that he 'might not be scum'.

Why do you insist that you aren't calling him town, then use meta to try and prove that he is? Why are you attacking people's arguments against him, when they are in-fact perfectly legitimate? You've said that the arguments are bad, because YOUR past experience says so.

[TheTrollie]

given:

Chlorophyll is a green pigment

Delta, et al.:

Frogs are green. They must have Chlorophyll in them.

Trollie:

Street signs don't have chlorophyll in them, and they are green too.

Delta, et al.:

Trollie is saying frogs definitely don't have chlorophyll in them.

does my obscure analogy clarify the fault in your logic?

[TheTrollie]

What i am saying, is

not

that frogs dont have chlorophyll in them. what i

am saying

is that to convince me frogs have chlorophyll in them, your gonna need more than just that they are green....ok, this analogy is actually more confusing than it has to be:

Delta: CD does X so CD is scum
Trollie: Town CD does X too
Delta: Trollie thinks CD is town

Here is the crux of the issue, and it explains where you are missing my point:

I am arguing against the

standard

by which you are basing your CD reads
you are conflating that argument with me arguing about the

reads themselves

You say X,Y,Z = scum.
I say TownCD does X,Y,Z
you

conclude

that I am calling CD town

this is exactly what i am contesting

What I am saying is that X,Y,Z is

a bad standard to base CD reads on

I am against calling CD scum based on X,Y,Z, AND i am against calling him town based on X,Y,Z.

MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT X, Y, Z CANNOT TELL US CD'S ALLIGNMENT. hence, it makes no sense for you to claim I am saying CD is town.

tl;dr

Delta and I are on

two different playing fields

I am arguing against the

logic

behind his CD read
He is arguing about the

read itself

this is why he keeps misconstruing my arguments to mean "CD=Town"

I hope that clears things up?

[TheTrollie]

I don't see why you are going to such lengths, devoting whole posts of your 'mafia time' to say that he 'might not be scum'.

The main answer to this is that I refuse to watch someone get lynched because people think there is a convincing case where there is not.

(2) because thinking about CD in the way you are proposing will prevent us from EVER getting a good read on CD, we need to stop muddying our scumsearch with inconclusive evidence cause it will distract us from useful evidence/analysis

(3) Because the CD issue relates to a Mafia-scum issue that has troubled me since my very first newbie game and that I finally resolved in my most recent completed game. I am determined to never succumb to this confusion again. (Slandaar was in that game too, but he died before my epiphany so he might not have much to say about it)

[Deltabacon]

You must find Cheery to be towntelling, not scumtelling, for the simple fact that you're protecting your argument so much. If you thought he was scummy you wouldn't defend him nearly as much. I'm saying he is scum, you're attacking my argument from which I can and have inferred that you're not looking at Cheery as scum.

I also want to know why you're trying to oversimplify my argument, when it was much more than 'I think you think Cheery is town'. I'm looking at why you're defending the possibility of his townhood so hard, when you don't have a legitimate reason other than meta and 'past experience' to enforce this belief. Really, you're trying awfully hard not to let Cheery get lynched.

[TheTrollie]

let me know when you have a question i haven't already answered five times

[Deltabacon]

Let me know when you find a legitimate reason for defending Cheery Dog.

UNVOTE: Cheery Dog
VOTE: TheTrollie

[TheTrollie]

@Sherlock: I actually understand your point of view right now. I would still like you to discuss this though because I think it will help me get a read on Jacob.

In other words, lets spend time on the base-level argument: is Jacob's use of this point-system more likely to come from scum or more likely to come from town. I don't want to start thinking about the implications of this in terms of WIFOMy arguments until I have a better idea of the answer to that question. this may not be very revealing but its worth a discussion

@Jacob: ISOd you. was focusing only on understanding your chart. If you are going to use this system to determine your reads I want to understand it fully. ill start with a few questions:
(1) do you rate the scummyness of each post by a player and then like average it or something? that is my best guess but I see no explicit explanation of your process.
(2) is there a formula or like are there certain behaviors that = point values (i.e. do you have some formula where backtracking = X scumpoints, scumslip = Y scumpoints)?
(3) is each post given a score, or are posts binary (scum/not scum)? Does each post count just as much as any other, or does your system allow you to give certain posts more weight?
(4) if each post does get a score, is that score just a rating of scummyness from 1-10 (like the final scores are) or do you rate those differently?
(5) how many times have u used this method?

I probably have a lot of questions, but its stupid for me to ask them when im just speculating right now. maybe the best thing for you to do would be to write a cohesive description of how your system works. Then I can ask questions once I have some idea of what it is you are doing rather than just playing a guessing game, and assuming your system works a certain way.

[_Sherlock_]

Alt or newbie, Sherlock?

I assume by alt, you mean a player already on this site that is playing with a newer account? I do have a lot of experience IRL, and I've read a lot of games here. I'm also a pretty smart guy.

@Trollie: I think you misunderstood me. I saw Jacob's spreadsheet as definitely more likely to come from town, and I said that he was at the top of my town list.


I might get to finish up my read-through today. We'll see.

[TheTrollie]

@jacob: one more issue I have with understanding your reads (which you can address when explaining your method):

How does the scale work? You have a 10-point scale but you seem to be making very strong claims based on differences in tenths of a point. how large of a difference is there in a 4.6 read and a 4.7 read?

i am realizing that i actually just have no idea how to go about understanding your system. i really need a comprehensive explanation of your system otherwise i have no way of understanding your reads at all

p-edit: @sherlock: ok, makes sense. In trying to understand my misinterpretation of you I came up with a bunch of reasons scum would use the spreadsheet method. I'm gonna hold off on those though because i realized that until i hear from jacob I dont understand the spreadsheet enough to glean anything from it

[TheTrollie]

oh, and one last thing:

delta is probtown based on our argument. unfortunately town doesnt mean not frustrating

[Radelle]

Going to get back to this later day with something that isn't pointless arguing. I agree with the Delta = prob town bit. Will explain better later.

[Tommy]

What suggested I wanted to choose one of the two leading bandwagons?
Why am I not town who genuinely finds Abbadon scummy?

Mainly because Parama wasn't town, but partly because your case is obviously confected. As Abaddon has pointed out, when another player supports one in a scummy way, the correct response is to call them on it.

[absta101]

1. How can your attack be based "mainly" on my "alignment"?
2. What suggested I wanted to choose one of the two leading waggons?
3. I would agree but him saying "in the right direction" and "hypocrisy" still gives me a bad feeling.

[absta101]

@absta101: How does Post 224 affect your read on Radelle?

Waiting on her response.
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@Trollie

- Leave Jacob's system out of this, you can discuss it in MD.
I don't see how it's relevant right now.

[TheTrollie]

you dont see how being able to understand and talk about a players reads is relevant?

[Cheery Dog]

I'm liking Absta's posts, which is telling me I probably got my read wrong on parama's replace out post.

unvote

TheTrollie is playing a lot more actively than I saw him as town in Best Athletes Mafia, although since he ended up being replaced there that's not a valid argument, however I will be watching him.

[toxictaipan]

@absta101: How does Post 224 affect your read on Radelle?

Waiting on her response.

While I understand the importance of considering all information available, I don't see why you need to wait on her response to take a stance here. Do you not agree that there is a vey clear conflict between those two posts?

Also, although I only addressed absta101, this is to all who currently have a town read on Radelle.

[Sable Tip]

Unfortunately I still don't have internet access with which I can actually play, and I don't know how long it will be until I do.

Mod: Please replace me.

[Tommy]

1. How can your attack be based "mainly" on my "alignment"?

It isn't. It's based mainly on Parama's play.

2. What suggested I wanted to choose one of the two leading waggons?

The fact that your case looks artificial.