Mini 1530 - Guyett's Paranoid Geology Trip GAME OVER

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/confirm

Gonna have to read up tonight. Anything I should know about who to look at?

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Also,

@mod can I please get a VC, my wonderful Irish master? Thank you!

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Oh, cool, ETL's a hydra. Hi Mastin!

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Finished skimming to p12. Kaze is town, not liking Ben or TSO for separate, and possibly contradictory reasons. (TSO is resisting townreads forming/trying to keep the lynchpool from shrinking and Ben is trying pretty hard to put himself at the center of a townbloc.) I'll finish the rest of the skim tonight, but I might not get around to posting. ISO's will begin immediately after.

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You don't like that I'm developing reads by reading the thread? I...

What should I do then?

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^Scummy.

I've only run through a couple of ISOs so far since skimming the thread, but I should have the time to get up to speed on this today. Expect a reads list at the minimum by tonight.

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OMFWTFBBQ.
so here i was, ignoring the first fewpages and jumping ontop of best rvs wagons for laterinfo.

Suddenly, a vt claim.

WHAT THE---

gotta be inexperienced newbie. Or soopir sufistikeytid scum.

Id say town newb.

I hereby declare that i will start reading the game from the start in half an hour lol

Looks like some content is already available. Sorry for inactivity so far, i have two superextrahyperactive games going on

You vote me immediately after my first catch up post with no reasoning, admit to not being caught up on the thread, and then want to know why that's scummy? I don't even know how to respond to that. You'll have to wait until my big post later.

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Sorry, I was pulling quotes before I posted that for analysis and forgot to unquote them. Pay no attention to the quotes behind the curtain.

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I was going to put this in a reads list, but it's already long enough I feel. Suffice to say that Shos is by far the scummiest IMO. If I get the time tonight I'll translate my reads list into language that a reasonable human can understand, as my notes are always incomprehensible at the best of times.

OMFWTFBBQ.
so here i was, ignoring the first fewpages and jumping ontop of best rvs wagons for laterinfo.

Suddenly, a vt claim.

WHAT THE---

gotta be inexperienced newbie. Or soopir sufistikeytid scum.

Id say town newb.

Yup a newb. And also a VT. Absolutely no scum motivation to push him, so you should definitely grab all the towncred you can for defending him. Maybe you can even lynch a real PR!

I hereby declare that i will start reading the game from the start in half an hour lol

Looks like some content is already available. Sorry for inactivity so far, i have two superextrahyperactive games going on

The beginning to a long line of fluff. This isn't twitter, I don't need 300 iterations of "I promise to read the thread soon gaiz and I'm super buzy with other gaims!" Flooding the thread with meaningless drivel like that is even more harmful to town than lurking, because it distracts from real scumhunting.

we should probably leave kaze alive, since he'll just be killed by scum if he isn't scum. if he lives too long, that's just wifom, and scum wouldn't want to take that risk.

"Guys, this guy who I'm calling conftown shouldn't be lynched yet. We can lynch him in a few days after I have a chance to introduce WIFOM as to why he's still alive!"

Alright so after ive looked at tools iso, you voters should explain to me why yourevoting him.

Shos defending Tool without going all in on it, in case the case is stronger than he thinks it'll be.

VOTE: Cooldog
*

So I notice nobody is really in this game. WAKE THE FUCK UP GAIZ

Post 302 by cooldog is truly, truly bad. not a single quote brought in it is of any importance, and all the reactions to it are bad.
I mean come on, 'why do town points matter?' town points are not real points you know, and you're being a douche. longposts =/= townposts.

I agree with Jacob's post in the fashion that GM's death should be confirming Snifit's townieness for us. I had a strong townread there anyway too so there's actually no reason to hesitate.

oh taylor's case! let's hear.

Guys, post more! Despite my last four posts that were all made on separate days within 50 posts of this one all saying I'm going to catch up, before a naked vote! I need a more believable excuse as to why I'm not contributing!

well 42 is basically a sign for me that toolend

really

hasn't played in a long while. definitely not a 'different mindset', and you look like you're forcing it by the first line -_-;

re:55 omg taaylor you suck! lol. I do that all the time as town, ya know, vote and then write why. that's because people tend to think before posting, as in, oh he must be scum, VOTE, now let's say why. that's reaaaally not indicating of anything, AND if anything logic wise that post is quite good and correct.

show me please where scum do that all the time, btw. this argument is just so bad, I can't see it coming from both ETL town and mastintown, are you drunk? you're drunk, go home!...you're scum? no really I want you to show me that.

"100 POSTS OF CONTENT" by post 27? what bullshit are you talking about??? that was totally still RVS, lol, I mean FFS look at my own posts at the time

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... &sr=topics
for you to see. he really did take a break. you're shitting.

I visited your links and that meta kinda suits his townplay here, I'd say. but I'm not a big fan of meta anyway.

Somebody fucking slap me. Please.

<<<<pretend that's my hand, and your face

VOTE: Taylor
one of the most horrible cases I've seen

Sure because bad case means scum, and ETL absolutely never tunnel-visions with a weak case as town... You've done literally nothing to show the scum motivation behind Taylor's post here, and a lot to defend Tool. If Tool flips scum I will 100% sure that you are scum. If Tool flips town I'll be pretty sure you're white knighting. Here's a hint: town gets a lot more info from letting players defend themselves than from having someone come in and pick out flaws in cases against them. Here's another hint: town isn't sure of anybody's alignment but their own.

oh that was because it was a reaction test. et voila! lol. I tend to do that alot.

Oh, because reason that is impossible to confirm! I've never played with you, and have no idea if you are prone to reaction tests. Regardless, 'reaction test' is just about the easiest excuse to use for 'scummy behavior.'

TL;DR-
Shos is scum because:
-Fluffposting
-Defending people without letting them defend themselves
-Hedging on ObvTown Kaze
-Hypocrisy about lack of content

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Hi Titus! I think we played a couple marathons together and my brother (sthar8) tells me you play a really good town game. Looking forward to seeing it myself!

Don't worry, the catch-up for this one went fairly fast, I replaced in a couple days ago, myself.

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Oh, and
VOTE: shos

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I don't see Kaze as scum trying to game the system incorrectly for towncred. I do see Kaze as town trying to game the system for a confscum. It is certain from Guy's reaction that Kaze was trying to game the system somehow. I also have to admit this is flavored by my experience with him being solely in marathons, but this looks remarkably like town-kaze from those games. Added to that the gut-town feel his posts are pinging in me, I'm not gonna get behind his lynch.

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And the meta I'm using is personality. He seemed arrogant enough to pull the same kind of thinking here. Particularly, the gambit seems to be well within his style, or what I would expect his style to be. That I know he has a hydra with ETL only furthers this for me. Basically, I expect that he plays in a manner very similar to Majiffy, where he doesn't particularly try to look town to the other players and does his own thing, assuming he'll be able to talk his way out of whatever corners pop up. I think that is in line with his play here. Do you disagree with any of that, or that I could have learned that from my admittedly limited experience with him? Does anyone with more experience with him care to claim that I'm wrong about his character and give me examples?

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I'm merely trying not to alienate the conftown while explaining the thought process behind my Kaze read. I don't want you pushing for someone I think is town. I believe you will be able to see the reasoning I have if I explain it and come to the same logical conclusion.

Any thoughts on my shos case?

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Naoi claimed VT under very little duress. GM is flipped as desperado, confirming you as town. Benmage and Cooldog are both VT flips. I believe that is it for revealed roles.

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I have much less time than I expected to have today, so we'll have to keep this short. TSO is firmly null, because most of his posts have been driven by apathy. I see a lot of ATE and not much else in his ISO, but that isn't really alignment indicative. With that said I'm always reluctant to lynch someone who promises to contribute more before giving them a chance. I'm definitely willing to give him a day or two to turn his play around.

That is not to say my patience is infinite. If TSO's promises to contribute more do not pan out I will be more than willing to lynch him.

Is it just me, or is anyone else concerned that JS has literally not posted since I replaced in, after his criticism of EK for lurking? JS, are you still there? Hopefully I manage to make it home tonight to post more, but if not I'll probably be gone until tomorrow night. Expect quite a bit more content then.

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Considering it was the only thing I can remember you doing in this game after going through all the ISO's a couple of days ago, yeah, the suspicion on my slot stood out, JS. Funny how that works. Any particular reason you think Kaze is scum? Any hopes that you might lurk less in the future?

@Kaze- yeah. Both scum and town use ATE to manipulate others. Both scum and town can get bored of a game and contribute little. Similarly both scum and town can have RL happen and need to replace. None of those on their own are very alignment indicative to me. There is a larger scum motivation than town motivation for them, but if you say that you've never seen those behaviors from town, then I will call you a liar. I'm not saying here that TSO is town or that he couldn't be scum. I'm saying that I don't have a solid grasp on whether he is, and I'm willing to give him an opportunity to provide more for me to analyze before lynching him.

I'm too tired tonight, but I plan on tackling the feels I'm getting from ETL tomorrow. I might also get around to some meta-reading, but don't count on it.

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I'm feeling town ETL from her response to the Tool case. I see a lot of genuine ETL frustration with a town not responding the way she expects to a case in posts 349-362. My one big concern here is that in my experience, ETL tends to post a lot more as both town and scum, and it's kind of messing with my read on her. I expect that to stop being an issue soon though.

Why is shos town? I'm really not seeing anything convincing as to why so many people think he's so towny, and I hate feeling like I'm missing something. Could someone please elaborate a little more than 'Your case is unconvincing; Shos is town.'? Thanks.

Apparently, TSO's promises to contribute more were empty. I can't say I'm shocked, but it is disappointing. After his supervig claim I really don't see him as contributing anything at this point. That means at worst we lynch a useless townie and at best we get a scum-lynch. Either way, enough people have voiced enough opinions on his wagon that I don't think there's a better option for today in terms of information. I intend to put him at L-1 and thus self-hammer range, unless someone has objections.

Also, fuck my internet connection. I've been trying to post this for almost an hour now.

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Shos voted the conftown. Kaze seems to be waffling on the conftown. I'm frankly confused as fuck.

TSO's biggest contributions to the game so far have been post 458 and his snifit interactions early D1. He made some good points regarding then snifit, and seemed to lose interest when he was proven wrong. 601 and 602 were useless to me because I've got a pretty strong townread on Kaze. 607 was a reads list without reasons- incredibly easy and also not really helpful for scumhunting without context. He also gave out townreads like candy in it. His next few posts were promising, if a little vague. His lynch list wasn't something I agree with, but could have lead somewhere. His ETL read was also something that didn't really add much to my ability to read him, but at least seemed like he was trying. 654 is where he gave up, and I don't really see anything at all after that that helps my read. His early attempts at undermining Benmage's townblock were red flags, his snifit reaction (particularly to them becoming conftown) seems town. His ATE is null as fuck. I haven't had the time yet to hyperanalyze the TSO/Pink Mittens back and forth, but when I skimmed I wasn't really convinced by either. This puts him firmly in the I'm not sure pile. If I were more aware of playstyle, I might be able to sort if this bitching from him is town or scum but I can't.

On the matter of lynchable people (specifically TSO's list) I'm not willing to see a Kaze lynch today. I find myself forgetting most of the specific things Naoi posted, which always scares me, but he seems to be genuinely newbish, so I'm not keen on his lynch today. Titus doesn't want to see a Mittens lynch, and for now I'm content to trust her there. That leaves JS and JS is a damned policy lynch at best. I hate policy lynches, especially on D2.

PEdit: The new lynch list is not better. I'm less willing to lynch me than Naoi obviously. Glad to see TSO hasn't given up on the game though. Now he just needs to make his alignment obvious to me.

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Sorry for the double post- going to read shos meta now.

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Fuck. Apparently Shos always looks like scum.

UNVOTE:

Will return after I finish my meta dive and reread his ISO.

PEdit: Which is why 651 confused the fuck out of me.

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Shos, could you direct me to your most recent scumgame? You have a lot of recent town ones, but I wasn't seeing a lot of scum. Your old scumplay is of a distinctly different nature, but it's also really stale. I'm still having trouble reconciling your play this game with a town mindset, but it does seem similar to your town play in the past. For now at least, I'm willing to back off on you and admit I might have been wrong. I'll be back after I've had a chance to reread a bit and think about the game.

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Naoi claimed VT under very little duress. GM is flipped as desperado, confirming you as town. Benmage and Cooldog are both VT flips. I believe that is it for revealed roles.

Titus, I never said that Naoi's claim was scummy. I never attributed an alignment to it at all. You asked for the claims and flips and I obliged. If you're going to scumread me, scumread me for things I actually do. Better yet, don't scumread me because it'll lose the game for town.

Let's take a look at the remaining players:

Jingle- Town
Titus- Town
Kazekirimaru-Town
Taylor- Town
PinkMittens- Kaze has a good point on his case. I really don't see scum putting in that much effort.
shos- Playing similar to recent town meta, but I still think he's scum. The lack of scum meta is also concerning. Particularly his late day interactions with TSO ring some scum bells, as well as the way he hopped on to TSO's wagon in 734 'for deadline reasons' despite the plurality lynch mechanic being in play in this game.
JacobSavage- has not done anything all game. Reading him is fucking impossible.
toolenduso- I haven't payed enough attention to this slot. I liked a point from ETL on him for scum way back, but I don't remember where it was ATM. I'll find it when I get the time.

POE leaves me with a {shos, JS, tool} scumteam. I am most sure of shos.

VOTE: Shos

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If I thought premature claims were scummy, maybe you would be right. I thought that you would understand that I found the claim more believable due to the nature in which it was revealed. It was most certainly obvious to me that I thought that, but I might be a little biased. Points that show this would be my lack of a scumread on Naoi all of yesterday and the fact that in my shos case (515) I thought (and still do) that shos was backing off on Naio because he was claimed as VT and thus not a high priority lynch.

I've explained my townreads on Kaze and Taylor. My reasons remain the same. I don't feel like rehashing old posts tonight, but you are welcome to check my reasons in my ISO. Otherwise, I can get back to you on that tomorrow night. I should be available for your little exercise then as well, but tonight I have to engage in amateur carpentry.

Kaze-

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Also, we have a conftown. We gain zero information from a NL here. Busier than I thought I'd be today, hopefully Ill be here for our exercise later though, Titus.

UNVOTE:

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No worries Titus. Tonight ended up being bad for me as well. Shos, I'm insulted by your kill claim scenario. Not only is it incredibly easy to manipulate for scum and a good way to get coaching for the NK, it also sets up the chance to frame someone quite nicely. In no universe will I be supporting this plan.

I should be around tomorrow night. There's a chance my boss might have to go to the hospital, in which case, I'm gonna have to V/LA to cover the store, but otherwise I should be good. I'll keep you all updated.

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I'm available for a bit if you want to arrange due discourse, Titus. Just let me know.

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Claim: Vanilla Town

I'm both disappointed in my inability to catch up with Titus and with the general lurkiness of the entire town. JS has been lurky lynchbait since D1 and I really don't like shos's sudden push on him. On the other hand, no-one has been pushing him very hard this game. I feel like scum would have made at least a token attempt at the policy lynch by now, unless he was one.

On the topic of NL/Lynch today, I can't think of too many roles that scum could screw us with tonight (scum-vig and Doublevoter are all that I can think of) and I don't think they're that likely in a setup with a desperado (already likely to go to MYLO with a shorter than average game). I'm not sure of that at all. I still think that a NL won't get us very far what with the number of confirmed/pseudoconfirmed townies.

If there is a cop, your only viable options tonight are me or JS, for obvious reasons.

I also don't much see the point of dragging out the day if no discussion is going to happen.

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This is Little Italy shos. It's a normal game.

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Wait, weren't we waiting to massclaim til tomorrow? Why are we not now?

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I can see an argument for either way. (NL-> massclaim allows scum fakeclaiming to fuck us.) (Massclaim->NL allows scum to optimize the NK.) I definitely want Titus to weigh in on this though.

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So, relevant claims.

Spoiler: Claim Spec

Titus- (powerful)
JS- (2 shot BP)
PM- (JK)
GM- (Flipped Desperado)

If these are all true then scum must be truly stacked with PRs. Assuming that Titus isn't WIFOMing to pull the NK, JS and PM are the possible fakeclaims.

I agree that PM's reasoning is fairly solid. I too would have Jailkept the conftown, as that has the highest likelihood of a successful NK prevention and there was a decent chance that the desp target was VT.

JS has not played in a manner befitting a BP ever. He was never going to get nightkilled, even if he was town. He's been acting like lynchbait since D1. So we take the option of him being town and fakeclaiming. Fakeclaiming what? Investigative means there should be results which would be really helpful in sorting this puzzle and thus protown to reveal. Protective? With a JK and a method of making conftowns? No the only thing that could make sense in addition is a utility role like a vig, and I doubt we have another killing role.

The short version is that I doubt all of the PR claims are real and expect 1 scum in {JS, PM}. I think it is much more likely to be JS, considering that desperado targeting BP makes an unkillable confirmed townie. I doubt that Guyett would have put that in the setup.

I'm also even more sure on my shos read now. His actions during claiming and his analysis both leave me wanting for a town POV.

Spoiler: Shos is Scum!

2-st BP

Scumclaim.

It doesnt make sense ti have a jk and a **2s** BP. He makes sure he has a reason why he isnt dead.

This is incredibly quick to jump to a conclusion. It reads to me like scumbuddy claimed something unexpected and shos jumped the gun in calling it scummy.

I trust tool enough, lol.
ETL: we are not nolynching.

We're not no-lynching because? I wasn't aware that you were in charge of all town decisions, but it's interesting that you want to be.

VOTE: Jacob

A naked vote in possible MYLO without discussion. He obviously doesn't care about the potential for a town loss here.

I think PM is town; I saw this precise reasoning too after you asked the question, and decided to shut up and see what he posts,a nd he posted correctly.

to the pown tile.

RE: jacob; no sense at all as a BP. the claim is possible, since JK+BP *can* fit to a normal game, as we don't know what powers scum have. probably more than a rolecop tho cuz rolecop V JK is a newbie game setup so if we have a BP then scum have some too.

However, this setup has been reviewed by no less than THREE people (see p1 - reviewed by Llamafluff, mykonian and callforjudgement) so it CANNOT just be JK v scum.

therefore, UNVOTE: Jacob, and I'll add that I believe both of these claims. It doesn't make much sense but eh, even if Jacob is lying, he is town fakeclaiming, so we can let scum decide on this wifom. worst case he dies, best case he's like a copvigdoublevoter.

but who

do

I wanna lynch - I'm in the dark.

PoE post coming up

Backpedaling as fast as he can. Jacob's claim is obviously real because obviously rolecop and JK is balanced. The setup has another PR because obviously 3 reviewers were needed. Never mind the desperado (an inherently swingy role, but definitely good for town) and whatever Titus is.

Also, where did rolecop come from shos? Your role PM? Because I sure as hell don't see any reason a townie should know what the scumpower is.

JacobSavage

Taylor

Titus

Jingle
toolenduso

Kazekirimaru
PinkMittens
shos

still rocking.

...ETL looks like a good candidate. he is playing very unlike his meta. where's all your motivation and power gone, ETL? lost in other games?

"Let's POE using the claims as conftown. I should be town too. That leaves us with Jingle, who thinks I'm scum, Tool, who's my scumbuddy, and ETL who just got prodded. Lets say that ETL should get lynched because she hasn't been in thread recently and isn't likely to make a counterargument. Let's just ignore the fact that I've said recently that I trust tool. Let's ignore the fact that I've said I want to lynch Jingle. Let's just go after whatever seems to be the easiest mislynch." He's ignoring his own thoughts and statements in order to push a lynch he's expressed no interest in over lynches he has. He's clearly not looking to lynch scum, but rather to have a lynch. He's caught.

TL;DR: Shos is scum, and you should have listened to me yesterday.

PEdit: ETL is telling the truth. I'll dig up some times she's told me as much in postgame discussions, and I'm pretty sure she said the same thing in Antihero mafia scumchat. Unless you want me to believe that she told me that for precisely this reason. If so, ETL's a freaking prophetess and we're all screwed.

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We've clearly already discussed ITT how your scum meta is stale as shit. I've already established that I think you're scum. If you think X is scum and might be bussing Y, you vote X because X IS SCUM. I'm less certain about him. I'm not impressed by your rebuttal.

ETL prefers scum in postgame:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5462660

ETL suffering from apathy in VT game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32269

As a bonus, Titus is also in that second one. I'm not, but aphix is someone I know IRL.

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ETL you're town. I know you're town, because I know you. My defense of you is because you haven't been putting the effort in to defend yourself. I've shown ITT why you're town. Don't start this paranoia shit with me, because you know as well as I do that I've been wrong about you exactly once. I can read you.

Shos your argument would be cute if not for Titus asking me to justify my read on ETL a few days ago. I just found time to dig up the meta for the case. Your POE is also laughable, because you're scum. You're just trying to keep as few of your scumbuddies in the running for the lynch as possible.

Meta from 1.5 years ago is irrelevant, unless you'd like to say that your behavior hasn't changed at all in that time.
You're not scum because you're bussing JS. You've been scum for a while now. Pay attention.
I ignored your point about the 2-shot because it's irrelevant. Your behavior in response to JS was the damning factor there.

I'm done waiting.

VOTE: Shos

I'm sure this is scum.

[Jingle]

I'm fine with JS then shos, but shos is still scum.

VOTE: JacobSavage

If he manages to wiggle out of his lynch tomorrow, I'm gonna be pissed.

[Jingle]

ETL, that was the hammer. Shos, Titus, Me, Kaze, You. Shos was bussing his scumbuddy.

[Jingle]

Scum knew you weren't a PR titus because of the lack of scum power. The only thing I could think of that would make sense for you was bomb, so we weren't shooting you regardless. I honestly expected to get lynched at some point this game, hence dropping all of the associative tells on Kaze. Also, yes shos, you were pretty accurate with your reads. That's why I spent so long blowing up at you in thread. In my experience big arguments between two players leave most townies not thinking about anything else either of them say.

All in all it was a fun game, thank you all for playing and especially thanks to Guyett for his awesome moderating and sweet flavor. I think the biggest problem the town had was the lurking, and most of that was caused by the site being down so often on D1. Otherwise, well played all.

[Jingle]

Also I'm fine with posting the QT, and could you please fix my double post Guy? TYIA.

[Jingle]

The scum QT is always more interesting. That's why encryptor is the best role ever.

Also, 500 posts for an ETL mafia QT isn't really outrageous. Also, there's like 100 posts of complaining in the middle, so it's not as impressive as it looks. I think all of the lurking was genuine, with the exception of myself in the last few days. I totally read the thread and decided I didn't want to post to prevent discussion. I'm also totally behind lynching lurkers, but mostly because I see it as a scumtell, if a minor one, for most players.

Shos, I'm really impressed by your reads, but you might want to work on your ability to convince town. You would have been scary as all hell to me if you would have stuck to your guns and argued your scumreads ITT a bit more. Also, relying on meta-defense when your scum meta is that outdated is tough. I'd suggest being scum more often. We definitely need to play again when I'm not looking for reasons to scumread you, though. I enjoyed the arguments.