Mini 1556: Greetings Without Spain (GAME OVER FAREWELL)

[Aisa]

VOTE: Aisa
Comment.

You were the second person to ask,

so I figured it deserved an answer.

scum found, gg

^This.

[Aisa]

VOTE: Aisa
Comment.

Do you often SelfVote? If not, why here? Do you not see merit in the conversation that is taking place? If you agree with kcd that piss is Scum, where's your Vote on him?

Well, the number of games I played is too low to be statistically significant.
But no, I never selfvoted before. I didn't want to put PK at L-2 that early, and with a quick look I didn't find anything else scummy. A vote on anyone else would have been almost completely random, so I chose myself. Ideally, I would have gotten a reaction or two out of that. "Comment" as in "Discuss". Sorry, I couldn't come up with a less ambiguous word.

Yet with all that (which I could spend pages picking apart and explaining how it could be from scum, is contradictory, etc), Kcd looks more VT than scum to me atm.

oh...

oh hooooooo

you

are so dying before this game is over.

Care to explain why?

Also, pkop and I will probably buddy quite a bit this game, because we chose to join together. It's up to you to decide if it's alignment indicative for this game.

OH THE COACHING

LOOK

MY GOD THIS IS SO EASY ITS SILLY.

Don't you think something like this may be relative?

kcd is most likely town atm btw

What was the purpose of this? It seems pointless filler to me. Your other posts aren't that exceptional either.

VOTE: Aisa
Comment.

This would be the most standout thing around. A self-vote in the grey area between RVS and early game. I would say that rather then expecting us to comment upon her, she is say 'comment' as in 'here is a comment'.

If I had to pick out a scum from everyone who commented upon my interactions I would pick Xay; for his defense for me. Scum Xay could be pretending to avoid a quickhammer as a way to gain towncredit early.

In what way did my post stand out to you? Do you think it is scummy?

If I had to pick out a scum from everyone who commented upon my interactions I would pick Xay; for his defense for me. Scum Xay could be pretending to avoid a quickhammer as a way to gain towncredit early.

"X did Y to gain towncred" is applicable to a lot things.
Is this outside of Xay's normal town meta?

VOTE: Ika

Fos: Pisskop

For now.

[Aisa]

Pedit:

You are assuming that 1. "tryhardness" automatically means trying to look town and that trying to look town is not something that town do; both of which I find incorrect.

If I had to pick out a scum from everyone who commented upon my interactions I would pick Xay; for his defense for me. Scum Xay could be pretending to avoid a quickhammer as a way to gain towncredit early.

"X did Y to gain towncred" is applicable to a lot things.
Is this outside of Xay's normal town meta?

This was

@Pisskop

.

@Aisa- Why woudn't you want piss at L-2 that early? I can understand L-1, but 2 derpVotes is a lot more rare than 1 derpHammer. What are your thoughts on X? Specifically this part...

Also, pkop and I will probably buddy quite a bit this game, because we chose to join together. It's up to you to decide if it's alignment indicative for this game.

Why do you think he felt it nesseccary to put the part regarding alignment?

Last time I voted someone to L-2 early during the game people didn't appreciate it very much. I can't go into further detail because it's an ongoing game.

Xayzeck is, in general, nullish.
I think the alignment thing makes the post look less opportunistic. I don't know if he did that as scum or as town, it depends on the player and I definitely don't know him well enough.

In what way did my post stand out to you? Do you think it is scummy?

It was a self-vote, for one. even in RVS it sticks out. I tend to believe RVS self-votes are slightly town-leaning.

More interesting is your 'comment'. What does it mean? To mean it looks like you are deliberately calling attention to yourself, but for social reasons. Are you familiar with several individuals in the game? Because otherwise I would assume you are just posting to announce you are here. Which would be a shade more null.

But I don't want to put much into it before you post real content. Its potentially a towntell to me, or another point in a case if it becomes a pattern.

I don't know many people in this game, and I'm not very familiar with the ones I know. As I said, my "comment" means "discuss". It was not really aimed at anyone in particular.

It's odd that you just said my post stuck out. Look at the context in post #69:
- D3x wants to know why you aren't contributing to the discussion.
- You say my post "sticks out" without really giving any useful opinion or input about it.
It sounds like you just wrote something random for the sake of posting.

Though the fact that you do have an opinion on me is positive. I'll sleep on it.

[Aisa]

Is anybody posting outside of mainland USA hours? I ask because sometimes I'm waiting for a response but it isn't going to come until awkward hours.

*Raises hand, points to sig*
--

"X did Y to gain towncred" is applicable to a lot things. Is this outside of Xay's normal town meta?

We haven't been in too many games together. But as scum I think I would let the town know I disagreed with a wagon like this. Its easy cred when it flips, and if it doesn't then I can still say I was objective throughout it.

Xay doesn't seem prone to that kind of thinking, but I've never officially met Scum Xay.

Eh. I'm still having mixed opinions on you. You seem more oriented towards justifying your suspicion of Xay than trying to understand if he is actually scum.
I can see myself voting you for the moment.
VOTE: Pisskop

My first gut thought about the Kcda-Kthx quarrel was "They are distancing from each other". By looking into it further nothing strikes me as suspicious enough to warrant a vote, but I'm not going to tolerate it if Kcda keeps not answering questions, or if Kthx uses this argument to avoid interacting with Kcda.

[Aisa]

Right now I just skimmed through the posts very briefly, I only have a couple comments. I'll definitely read everything in detail tomorrow.

Aisa

:

You seem more oriented towards justifying your suspicion of Xay than trying to understand if he is actually scum.

Umm no. I am waiting for continued reactions from him. Specifically I wanted to see how he progressed with his vote on d3x. My experience with him is that he's a fairly honest and straightforward person. You can typically take what he says at face value. So, when he unvotes 3d3x after saying this

because you're twisting words in order to look like you're scumhunting.

I wonder if he is trying create some breathing room for himself.

From your post #80 I can't see this intention. All I see is "X is something I would do as scum, idk if Xay does it too, but it could be something". It's a rather poor reason to vote him.

Prod received. Will post tonight after work.

Anyone wanna lynch all liars?

Poor attempt.

So let's see, why I think d3x is town? Because I think as scum he would talk his way out of him twisting my words, yet his response fully acknowledges that he did so intentionally. It was only that one post that striked me as scummy, his activity overall is protown.

This feels fake. The rest of his post seems a bit filler-y.

[Aisa]

. It's a rather poor reason to vote him.

Do please explain.

We haven't been in too many games together. But as scum I think I would let the town know I disagreed with a wagon like this. Its easy cred when it flips, and if it doesn't then I can still say I was objective throughout it.

Xay doesn't seem prone to that kind of thinking, but I've never officially met Scum Xay.

(Quoting your original post for reference)
Alright, reading your post again, I may have misinterpreted something. You do have a point on the fact that Xay's actions are scummy, but the underlined part still makes no sense for me.
--
So I read through the game. I have yet to go through Kthx's other games, but if this is his standard play as town as d3x says then my vote has no reason to be on him.

The discrepancy noted here by Thomith makes me feel like Kthx really is scum after all, but the reasoning for voting Xay is far too strong. D3x's case goes way deeper in to things than I would and finds stuff scummy that is more than what is probably the case but the theme running through Xay's ISO is obvious and I believe d3x's conclusion is correct.

Due to the existence of counter wagons and recognizing how useless of a player Xay is, we can be reasonably assured we aren't wasting a lynch even if I'm wrong and Xay is town.

This sums up my stance on Xay quite well.

PK: I don't think he actually slipped. The whole connection to Xay is suspicious, as are some of his posts which look like filler. This makes him lean scum, but not as strongly as Xay.

Kcda: I agree that he obviously knows what is going on. I don't have a read on him at this point.

VOTE: Xayzeck
I'm getting tired. If you want reads on other people or whatever, I'll have them tomorrow.

[Aisa]

Alright
I promise from now on you'll get at least a post from me a day, and hopefully more than that.

Reads:

Kthx:

Townish. While I do not like his initial push on Kcda and his AtE, I think he is trying to scumhunt. Also the meta point brought up earlier.

Kcda:

I don't know. I'm finding it hard to tell his playstyle apart from real scummy intention.

Xay:

Was scummy before the reaction to PK's vote. I think it’s more likely that he genuinely thought he was lynched.

Pisskop:

Prob my strongest scumread at this point. Even if I don't agree with Kthx's interpretation of his "scumslip". It seems logical to me to use the word "townies" in his hypothetical scenario.
I don’t like the case on Kthx. It worries me how he puts almost no consideration in Kthx’s meta, seeing as that was mentioned before.

D3x:

#296 seems townish. He generally tends to put a bit too much meaning into things than I would (#296, “If piss is Scum, I think he's trying to get Xay to push weak/incorrect Reads as fodder for Tomorrow” is an example). I have yet to figure out what that means.

Lucresia:

Townish. I like #238, as well as his last two posts.

PrivateI:

The Xay vote worries me a bit. A lot of his points seem filler.

Thom:

I don’t get the “Titus is almost the only one vouching for townKthx therefore he is scum if Kthx is town”. What do you mean exactly when you say “it felt really weird?” Expand please.

Everyone else is nullish/hasn’t posted enough for me to figure out his alignment.
VOTE: Pisskop

[Aisa]

Aisa: Same thing. What are your thoughts surrounding the whole hammer that wasn't a hammer incident?

Piss's intent, followed by the vote after barely an hour makes no sense. The reasoning he gave afterwards still makes no sense (297, "I was trying to make sure everyone knew it was coming"). Why'd he do that?
Maybe he really wanted to lynch Xay, then he realized that someone might've unvoted after he claimed intent and didn't want that to happen? Admittedly, that's a quite far-fetched theory. Anyway, I can't find a town motivation.
I'm not sure about Xay's reaction. My gut says it's genuine.

@Titus:

Can you go over the "Kthx explained the slip and

I figured it was plausible but not airtight

" part a bit more in detail?

[Aisa]

Thom: I don’t get the “Titus is almost the only one vouching for townKthx therefore he is scum if Kthx is town”. What do you mean exactly when you say “it felt really weird?” Expand please.

Basically, Titus was one of the only people (along with d3x but im not sure if he was "defending" as such and so would need to check that) that was strongly saying kthx was town. It felt really weird because of the fact that it could have easily have been that Titus is mafia and kthx is town and as titus was the seemingly the only one to have defended him he would gain "towncred" for being against the town wagon in this hypothetical scenario day 2 once kthx had flipped, and the fact she is now defending a high lynch target Xay also makes me wary.

But did Titus ever defend Xay? What she said in the last couple days about him: "My notes have Xay at L-1. I also don't see where scum can't be genuine. When I'm scum, I'm the most genuine player in the game generally but for who we should lynch." "I'm punting on Xay right now. I don't know whether it was town or faked. I don't intend to take a stance on reading people when I don't see the answer."
I understand your reasoning, but it's a bit too Wifom for my taste. She could very well be genuine, so I wouldn't trust this as much as you seem to be doing right now.

[Aisa]

Pisskop: Prob my strongest scumread at this point. Even if I don't agree with Kthx's interpretation of his "scumslip". It seems logical to me to use the word "townies" in his hypothetical scenario.
I don’t like the case on Kthx. It worries me how he puts almost no consideration in Kthx’s meta, seeing as that was mentioned before.

I just want to understand the why behind your Read here. You say he's the strongest ScumRead, but you don't give any reasons aside from his case being poor/weak and not agreeing with a point on the case against him.

I later touched on to the fact that his explanation for the not hammer didn't make sense. You can add some gut to that.

Spoiler: Quotes from Titus

Aisa: Same thing. What are your thoughts surrounding the whole hammer that wasn't a hammer incident?

Piss's intent, followed by the vote after barely an hour makes no sense. The reasoning he gave afterwards still makes no sense (297, "I was trying to make sure everyone knew it was coming"). Why'd he do that?
Maybe he really wanted to lynch Xay, then he realized that someone might've unvoted after he claimed intent and didn't want that to happen? Admittedly, that's a quite far-fetched theory. Anyway, I can't find a town motivation.
I'm not sure about Xay's reaction. My gut says it's genuine.

@Titus:

Can you go over the "Kthx explained the slip and I figured it was plausible but not airtight" part a bit more in detail?

Of course.

When Kthxbye posted about Pisskop's use of the word "townies" in his post, it implied knowledge that Xay was a townie. Considering Xay's play has been very bad to me, I don't forsee anyone reading him as a townie. Thus, when Pisskop posted, it was likely he knew that Xay was town.

It is however possible that Pisskop had a legit read of the slot, as everyone plays differently. I just find it farfetched.

Thom: I don’t get the “Titus is almost the only one vouching for townKthx therefore he is scum if Kthx is town”. What do you mean exactly when you say “it felt really weird?” Expand please.

Basically, Titus was one of the only people (along with d3x but im not sure if he was "defending" as such and so would need to check that) that was strongly saying kthx was town. It felt really weird because of the fact that it could have easily have been that Titus is mafia and kthx is town and as titus was the seemingly the only one to have defended him he would gain "towncred" for being against the town wagon in this hypothetical scenario day 2 once kthx had flipped, and the fact she is now defending a high lynch target Xay also makes me wary.

But did Titus ever defend Xay? What she said in the last couple days about him: "My notes have Xay at L-1. I also don't see where scum can't be genuine. When I'm scum, I'm the most genuine player in the game generally but for who we should lynch." "I'm punting on Xay right now. I don't know whether it was town or faked. I don't intend to take a stance on reading people when I don't see the answer."
I understand your reasoning, but it's a bit too Wifom for my taste. She could very well be genuine, so I wouldn't trust this as much as you seem to be doing right now.

This is pretty much it.

Xay has always been a scumread of mine. I doubt the sudden clearing of him due to the

"tell"

.

Rhinox

1) It is MY counterargument for that being a slip. I don't give two rats asses about majority. I care about logically sound.

Of course, you are using the wrong post to interpret my arguments. Post 197 is the slip.

1) I don't get to apply my own logic and make up my own arguments. Yo hav got to be kiddin me.

Pisskop's counterargument is shit, but I do apply logic to make sure if I m right. There can be reasons for a post beyond that of what the defender claims. I am not going to lynch someone fot a lip unless that us the only posssibility.

Th fact you don't want me to argue and use logic suggests your attack on me is a chainsaw of Pisskop.

Go for the better player or you are his buddy.

Pisskop, you obviously weren't talking about a hypo in 197. I naturally don't like slip argumenrs. I would hav brushed off Kthx argument if I could find my own reason for it not to be a slip.

Rhinox, how do you know Xay's a mislynch? He semms pretty scummy to me.

You never were willing to settle on Pisskop. Be real.

As Pk said, can you believe that
1. Pk is scum
2. the slip is really a slip
3. Xay is scum
All at the same time?
...No, I don't think so.

I think it's probable she realized that her reason for voting Pk

was

is bad, then made up a reasoning. Problem is, I can sense a possible town motivation. Maybe she just thought that admitting that she was wrong was worse move. I'm hesitant to believe she's scum because of this.
I'm willing to move my vote, but I'd do so reluctantly.

@PI:

Wha? So did you catch up now? And that doesn't look like a slip to me. Explain please.

[Aisa]

I'll be on at deadline if needed.
I think Kthx's point on Titus is somewhat valid. Her reaction to the vote is nullish to me. I don't ignore the possibility that she's scum, and between no-lynch and Titus lynch I'd choose the latter, but really, it's not that obvious as Rubicon put it.