Mini 1591: PFs Flavorless Normal (Game Over)

[Cyberbob]

Ugh, I think I'm starting to come down with a major head cold.

Anyway. Reinoe has an extremely ironic signature.

Vote: reinoe

[Cyberbob]

@mod: Can you please confirm my alignment and role?

[Cyberbob]

Reinoe's case is overblown as hell and his insistence on stupid theatrics with all these "humourous" images and links is really annoying. Reading back over his posts it's really difficult to accept the narrative he is presenting of the progression of reasons for his vote - he wants people to believe that it was "serious" right from the get-go but the post in which he made it was about as lol rnadum as it gets. That 'hypocrisy off-beat playstyle hypocrisy off-beat' thing is being stretched beyond belief too. Could be inexperienced and overeager town I guess but IMO the best way to differentiate between shit town and scum is to see how they react under pressure. Thus far SK has really been the only one to actually put any questions to reinoe since everyone else has been focusing on SK and running interference for the targets of SK's questions.

[Cyberbob]

PS there are almost certainly semi-lurking scum that are either facepalming at their scumbuddy reinoe going off half-cocked or rubbing their hands in glee at seeing town reinoe being an excellent focus of attention.

[Cyberbob]

You're demanding a flawless case based on page two information.

I am not. I am demanding a slightly less than completely 100% forced, melodramatic and contradictory case based on page 2 information.

[Cyberbob]

re Drew: I don't think he is scum mainly because at this point I do not think SK is scum. The only scenario where it would make sense that Drewscum would verbally cheer on SK's wagon while voting for you is if you are town and SK is his buddy.

Why do you think sleepykrew's case is not forced, melodramatic, and contradictory?

He's barely made any case at all against you aside from asking questions which have mostly either gone unanswered or have been answered by other people. You started flipping out at him in Post 46 which was before he'd said anything at all about you other than "hey everyone should join my wagon".

[Cyberbob]

("my wagon" as in "my wagon on reinoe")

[Cyberbob]

Why is everyone ignoring my case on Konowa?

I haven't ignored it but I'm not quite sure how you're reading so much into his initial reinoe vote when all he said to go along with it was "Yup." Especially since he admitted later that he hadn't actually read the thread - it would be a really weird thing to lie about, so why would he outright admit to it if he was scum? People jump on early Day 1 bandwagons for all sorts of reasons (including no reason at all).

Goofy is much scummier if you're looking for people to vote that aren't reinoe.

[Cyberbob]

Even if I do buy it, skimming thread is correlated with a scum alignment, so that's no salvation

Really? I mean I might be relying a little too heavily on my own experiences, but from what I can recall I almost always used to pay more attention when I'm scum. Can you back this one up?

[Cyberbob]

I want Konowa posts, Goofy posts, I Am Innocent posts, RedCoyote posts and farside22 posts that aren't chainsaw defences of reinoe

Goofy's Post 77 is deliberately evasive and scummy as shit, also for some reason I'm having a bit of a gut reaction to his Post 65.

[Cyberbob]

I'm not really looking for you to comment on any one thing in particular, just for you to comment on

something

other than lazily berating SK for supposedly being so absentminded

SK's question wasn't terribly hard hitting but that only makes it weirder that anyone would bother to not answer it. What did Goofy have to lose?

[Cyberbob]

Bob, really? I said I agreed with your vote against him and the premise behind it. I have my own individual points against Drew that I want to pursue. I didn't just join in for shits and giggles, and you're tying Drew and SK alignment's together far too early over one post. I thought it sounded suspicious, but let's not go crazy. So for you to make the implication (correct me if I'm wrong) that because I am voting Drew, the person that overly defended SK and tried to make it seem like he didn't, and because SK is a town read of yours at the moment, then that means I am de facto chainsaw defending reinoe. That's a lot of assumptions to be making about four different players.

reinoe, my answer is one.

Did I say I wanted posts from them/you specifically about reinoe or any other topic? No, I just said I wanted more posts. There were no implications being made except what you've created in your mind.

[Cyberbob]

Did I say I wanted posts from them/you specifically about reinoe or any other topic? No, I just said I wanted more posts. There were no implications being made except what you've created in your mind.

I want [...] RedCoyote posts [...] that aren't chainsaw defences of reinoe

Explain to me how to correctly interpret this statement.

That last bit was only referring to farside. I was quite obviously not saying that all of the posters I listed have spent a significant amount of time attacking SK. The reason that this is obvious is I have a functioning brain.

[Cyberbob]

Hey cooldog, farside, and red coyote, how many scum in here...

[konowa, sleepykrew, cyberbob]

What is this supposed to accomplish?

How many games outside of Road To Rome do you have. I know we played together in that one U-Pick, but was that your only non-newbie game?

[Cyberbob]

Are you really accusing me of getting defensive after writing this post?

Bob, really? I said I agreed with your vote against him and the premise behind it. I have my own individual points against Drew that I want to pursue. I didn't just join in for shits and giggles, and you're tying Drew and SK alignment's together far too early over one post. I thought it sounded suspicious, but let's not go crazy. So for you to make the implication (correct me if I'm wrong) that because I am voting Drew, the person that overly defended SK and tried to make it seem like he didn't, and because SK is a town read of yours at the moment, then that means I am de facto chainsaw defending reinoe. That's a lot of assumptions to be making about four different players.

[Cyberbob]

Also yes it was obvious sorry.

[Cyberbob]

Whatever.

[Cyberbob]

PS there are almost certainly semi-lurking scum.

how many scum here...

[I am innocent, goofydood, popsofctown]

Oh, was that an actual question? I assume PF is running about as 'standard' a setup as it gets so there's probably 3 scum total. SK might be possible but it's unlikely.

What I was saying in that post was that there are numerous people coasting or semi-coasting and that it's likely that at least one of the scumteam is among them.

[Cyberbob]

Is this some kind of obnoxiousness gambit?

[Cyberbob]

I'm not really looking for you to comment on any one thing in particular, just for you to comment on

something

other than lazily berating SK for supposedly being so absentminded

SK's question wasn't terribly hard hitting but that only makes it weirder that anyone would bother to not answer it. What did Goofy have to lose?

Ignoring the overly agressive guys inane question is apparently scummy, or you can't read, going with option 2.

He was not being aggressive at all initially. He only started getting irritated when you started refusing to answer.

[Cyberbob]

Also Goofy, no question is too inane in mafia - there is always something that can be read into either the substance or the demeanour of an answer.

[Cyberbob]

RQS must be a relatively recent term as I've never heard of it.

[Cyberbob]

That just sounds like it's referring to the posts during RVS that don't actually contain a vote

[Cyberbob]

Is it just me or is this game hard to follow? I blame SK and reinoe.

Unvote

Vote: RedCoyote

I thought it was weird how keen he was to remind me of his agreement with my opinion of reinoe while we were arguing over my "I want posts" post, he was trying quite hard to keep me from forgetting that he was "on my side". That little gut twinge has now been more than confirmed with this post.

[Cyberbob]

Take a Ritalin or an Addarall if you need to

Cut this shit out. It isn't clever or funny and you aren't impressing anyone.

[Cyberbob]

I'm not going to argue with you about it, I've messaged Pokerface about it and he can deal with it. I'm going to interact with other players.

[Cyberbob]

I'd like RC to respond in some way to my vote on him, preferably with some explanation of why he made that "this game is hard to follow :sadface:" post which is a time-honoured scum tell.

I'd like Dessew and Drew (and

nobody else

) to explain their Konowa votes again since as far as I can tell they're both using the same reasoning as pops.

@ Cyberbob

94 - I have two votes with zero case evidence and chatter on it. SK and Reinoe both sit on 3 at that point too. The focus was not explicitly on SK as you are implying.

True, but I was more narrowly discussing how everyone had been reacting to the SK/reinoe thing. There was obviously discussion of other things that were happening at the time but pretty much anytime someone talked about SK or reinoe it followed the script I described.

[Cyberbob]

Oh, I think I missed this from before:

Reinoe's case is overblown as hell and his insistence on stupid theatrics with all these "humourous" images and links is really annoying. Reading back over his posts it's really difficult to accept the narrative he is presenting of the progression of reasons for his vote - he wants people to believe that it was "serious" right from the get-go but the post in which he made it was about as lol rnadum as it gets. That 'hypocrisy off-beat playstyle hypocrisy off-beat' thing is being stretched beyond belief too. Could be inexperienced and overeager town I guess but IMO the best way to differentiate between shit town and scum is to see how they react under pressure.

Thus far SK has really been the only one to actually put any questions to reinoe since everyone else has been focusing on SK and running interference for the targets of SK's questions

.

PS there are almost certainly semi-lurking scum that are either facepalming at their scumbuddy reinoe going off half-cocked or rubbing their hands in glee at seeing town

reinoe being an excellent focus of attention

.

Why the contradiction in these two posts? (see underlined)

There's no contradiction, though it is a bit of a fine distinction. Reinoe is an attention sponge for the wrong reasons. I want him to receive more of the right kind of attention in the form of actual critique of his "case" against SK, and less of the wrong kind of attention in the form of his obnoxiousness drowning out everything else. In more recent pages there has been more discussion of other posters, which has been pleasing (even if he still hasn't received the kind of criticism his awful "case" deserves).

[Cyberbob]

I saw it, I agree with it. I already think he's either scum or so-awful-it's-anti-town town though so I didn't bother commenting on it. I'm voting RC because I'm still getting buddying vibes and seriously, "this game is so hard to follow am I right guys?" posts are scummy as shit

[Cyberbob]

Maybe. I want to hear from RC first.

[Cyberbob]

You guys realise that supporting wagons you agree with and arguing against wagons you disagree with is what town should be doing right

[Cyberbob]

Yeah, nah. If the only reason you have to suspect me of doing much the same thing as you is your gut (or more accurately, reinoe's gut) then you should just say so. If you have other reasons, if you'd like to take a stab at arguing against my stated reasons for voting for RC, then you should do that instead. Trying to be vaguely intimidating only works if you're willing to back it up with an actual argument.

[Cyberbob]

Your thoughts about Skrew's behaviour towards the RC wagon

might

have some potential but only if you're willing to follow through on them. If you're going to accuse someone of being scummy for acting in a way that is similar to how you are acting you can't just handwave the contradiction away with "well I'm obv town and my gut says he's scum", it doesn't work like that. Nobody is obvtown, especially not on D1, you can't sit back and expect people to take your word for it.

PS: Dessew's whole thing with trying to make a case for pops being town is remarkably stupid. Not only is it far too early in the game to be making those kinds of calls, you're also painting a target on that person's back for scum to nightkill.

[Cyberbob]

I'm not dismissing his points because of his personality, I'm dismissing them because they're unfounded. The only reason he views SK's recent behaviour as automatically scummy is because he already thought he was scummy to begin with. It would be fair to say that I don't share that initial opinion, therefore while I did spot the behaviour I have not categorised it as scummy out of hand because in a vacuum that kind of thing is fairly null. It might prove useful in later days for a town that is armed with more information to look back on, but right now it's a pretty weak basis for a case.

[Cyberbob]

That's fine, I don't agree with the interaction being forced but arguing the toss over a gut read is only worth it when I feel like it's being made with dishonest intentions (there's that word again). As far as the out of game issues thing goes, I can kind of see that being a bit weird? I would like to hear a bit more about that from SK but it's most likely null. I can think of a few reasons why scum specifically might do it but any time you start talking about out of game stuff things get really hazy.

[Cyberbob]

Why would you even want to make a town case on someone to begin with?

[Cyberbob]

It's OK to make a case for scum that early because that's kind of what town are supposed to do, nobody said it was ideal but you make do with what you've got. There is never (that I can think of) a time where it's a town imperative to be trying to make a "town case".

[Cyberbob]

All three of those reasons are cool and good but here's an even better reason to keep your towntells to yourself unless you have very good reason not to:

you're also painting a target on that person's back for scum to nightkill.

Scum are motivated to kill town players that they feel they stand less of a chance to get mislynches on. "Confirmed town" players are also more likely to have their opinions be given a fair hearing, which makes it harder for scum to undermine them.

[Cyberbob]

So in answer to your question: someone who's been here since 2007 can think of reasons to make a town case on someone, it's just that someone who's been here since 2007 has also learned enough to know that the cons far outweigh the pros 99% of the time.

[Cyberbob]

You have a strong townread who's at L-1. You cannot think of a reason to present a town case for someone in this scenario?

I've been here since mid-march 2014 and I know enough to recognize that scum kill whomever they want at night whenever they want at night and it could be for any number of reasons.

Listen, I think this little bit of theorychat has gone on long enough. If you want to hear the exact same thing coming from people other than me (since clearly I'm not sufficient) you should post a thread about it in MD after this game is over.

I think your attempts at trying to rebuke Dessew's towncase on pops is unnecessary. Why did you feel the need to comment on it?

Because...

you're also painting a target on that person's back for scum to nightkill.

Now, how about we go back to the actual game at hand?

[Cyberbob]

Why are you claiming I did a thing which I did not?

[Cyberbob]

Whoops.

[Cyberbob]

Reinoe, why are you making accusations without first doublechecking to verify that you are directing them at the right person before you hit Submit?

[Cyberbob]

I'm not getting drawn back into a theory argument that I just finished, sorry. My advice for you is the same as it was for reinoe: if you want to go and argue the point with a bunch of other people and be told the same thing that I'm telling you then you should go and make a thread in MD after the game.

Whoops.

yep

Yep.

Unvote, Vote: reinoe

[Cyberbob]

It's almost as though something rather substantial happened between now and then to change my mind!

[Cyberbob]

Just because a series of 'old heads' consider it an invalid approach doesn't mean it is.

Declaring 8 from 10 people as town and then lynching the 9 / 10 person is, in my view, as legitimate as finding the 9 / 10 and voting for them. That you're so stubborn on this is frustrating but I'll accept is part of this community (the view, not your stubbornness).

That's fine. Still not getting drawn back into it.

[Cyberbob]

What are your thoughts on reinoe's most recent transgression?

[Cyberbob]

If I were scum I would have been careful enough to not make that mistake.

"Too scummy to be scum" isn't actually a thing, sorry.

[Cyberbob]

Oh man here comes another theory argument.

[Cyberbob]

If that isn't scum resigned to their fate then I don't know what is.

[Cyberbob]

Goofy. No. Goofy no. You're overthinking this. This cigar really is a cigar.

[Cyberbob]

jesus christ my brain is being broken so hard right now

[Cyberbob]

Go have a VB Cyberbob. You silly Victorian's and that crazily poor beer

I'll submit myself to the horror of a VB if you vote reinoe

[Cyberbob]

Yes, that is how sure I am of this lynch

[Cyberbob]

It was a joke, friend scum.

[Cyberbob]

Go have a VB Cyberbob. You silly Victorian's and that crazily poor beer

I'll submit myself to the horror of a VB if you vote reinoe

I'm almost tempted to put you through the awful reality of doing so. Will you take a picture and post it up?

Mmm as committed as I am to the grand old game of Mafia I don't think I'm quite that committed when push comes to shove.

[Cyberbob]

Yes, that is how sure I am of this lynch

Sure enough to engage in trust tells.

Even if he was serious, that's not a trust tell.

he certainly acts as if he knows all there is to know about mafia.

So then you were wrong again.

No attempt to mount an actual defence, no attempt to even deflect attention. Just a series of half-hearted attempts at "gotchas" that grow ever more dispirited

[Cyberbob]

Defending yourself is pro-town. Town players want to avoid town lynches, therefore if you are town then you can only help the town by defending yourself. Or at the very least you should be going back and reading as much as you can and trying to find new things to mention that have been missed by others to aid the town in future days.

[Cyberbob]

Literally the only logical reason one might have for clamming up when they know they're going to be lynched is if they're scum and they want to minimise their interactions with other players as best as they can - thus giving the town as little to work with as possible in future days.

[Cyberbob]

I think you're tunneling, and I think you've got confbias (and Cyberbob too ATM).

No.

I'm going to look stupid / implicated if Reinoe

is

mafia,

Implicated? Probably not. Stupid? Definitely.

[Cyberbob]

Village idiots overthinking things is the most frustrating thing, I swear.

[Cyberbob]

Drew, if you truly believe tunnelling is going on then it's on you to offer up something better. That's - here's that term again! - the pro-town thing to do. Make your case.

[Cyberbob]

Drew, if you truly believe tunnelling is going on then it's on you to offer up something better. That's - here's that term again! - the pro-town thing to do. Make your case.

If I may interject: you could vote Konowa who is scum!

Yes, I've seen your reasons for this case and even setting aside the fact that you're scum I disagree with those reasons. It would be good if Konowa could post some more (it would be good if a lot of people could post some more actually) but as it stands the case is really weak.

[Cyberbob]

Also this sort of thing

Btw, is "you are wrong" something you hear all the time in your life? All this confirmation bias you've got building up inside you can't be healthy. Take a walk outside. I know you're a lego piece but that doesn't mean you can't loosen up.

Does you no good.

[Cyberbob]

Hey cooldog, farside, and red coyote, how many scum in here...

[konowa, sleepykrew, cyberbob]

What is this supposed to accomplish?

It allows me to cross reference some players to see if they have the same scum reads as I do. If I'm way off then I should re-asses. If multiple players have the same scumreads as I do then it let's me know I'm on the right track.

You can find out more about how to play mafia here.

SleepyKrew, seriously, pay attention.

I would have thought that in light of recent events you might have found it within yourself to stop trying to be condescending about other people paying attention?

[Cyberbob]

Cyberbob I don't think I've noticed you say anything about my volume level, even though I lead everyone in post count by a significant margin. Am I wrong and you have called me out? If not, why not?

I haven't seen you do much that I would consider "loud". You have more posts but reinoe has been "louder" by a significant margin (

***not calling loudness in of itself scummy***

). Or at least he was in the first few pages, I guess he's cooled his heels a bit after the mod told him he was going too far. His huge glaring fuckup before helped too.

Drew, if you truly believe tunnelling is going on then it's on you to offer up something better. That's - here's that term again! - the pro-town thing to do. Make your case.

If I may interject: you could vote Konowa who is scum!

Yes, I've seen your reasons for this case and even setting aside the fact that you're scum I disagree with those reasons. It would be good if Konowa could post some more (it would be good if a lot of people could post some more actually) but as it stands the case is really weak.

There are three other people voting Konowa as well. Just throwin' that out there.

Whom are your other scum reads if any?

a) There are also a few people voting you unless I'm mistaken. Sure you want to make that argument?
b) My other scum reads are RC and Goofy. Minor suspicion of a bunch more people for not posting enough for my liking, though I understand there are a number of V/LAs

No. I'm not responsible for your view of the world and I'm not going to get so completely wrapped up in defending someone that I have to enter your tunnel and show you how to look at it right. Not to mention, if you haven't been swayed by what I've said, then its confbias at work.

Unfortunately, yes you are responsible for promoting the cases you agree with and arguing against the cases you disagree with right up until the game ends or you die. That's - you guessed it! - how a town works. Throwing up your hands, writing off all opinions contrary to your own as confirmation bias and calling it a day is about as good a method of handing the game to the scum as I've ever seen.

[Cyberbob]

he is blatantly contradicting himself even more now
this is too easy
and yet I still must struggle

Hey cooldog, farside, and red coyote, how many scum in here...

[konowa, sleepykrew, cyberbob]

What is this supposed to accomplish?

It allows me to cross reference some players to see if they have the same scum reads as I do.

If I'm way off then I should re-asses. If multiple players have the same scumreads as I do then it let's me know I'm on the right track.

You can find out more about how to play mafia here.

I suppose I should have said "Konowa, sleepykrew, and cyberbob are three scumreads of mine. How many of these three are scum in your eyes". But that lacks a certain flair. Are you having a hissy fit because I didn't make it simple enough for you to understand?

Clarity of meaning is pro-town.

[Cyberbob]

Alright I'm going to take a break from this sterling little merry-go-round of me/SK vs Drew/reinoe for a bit. You guys have fun!

[Cyberbob]

I have to get back to work but if this game is 18 pages of sk/reinoe fighting, i'm going to lose my motivation real fast.

lol

[Cyberbob]

Yeah, sorry, I'm here. I've been reading the thread but it's been hard to find the motivation to post since farside is being useless as shit and reinoe is still scum and everybody that isn't voting for him appears to be quite set in their ways. I really can't understand how the hell SK is still managing to draw the ire of half the fucking playerlist.

I don't want to replace out, I told myself when I started this game that I was committed and I still am, but it's hard when right now I can't see this game ending in anything but a scum win over a town that deserves to lose.

[Cyberbob]

I can't explain it, that's the point.

[Cyberbob]

The former. You do post a lot but so does reinoe and farside has barely touched on him except to dismiss the case against him in a couple of words, I think it was due to meta or something (lol).

[Cyberbob]

She has been the most protown player d1

and probably most worthy of doc protection.

[Cyberbob]

Yeah, sorry, I'm here. I've been reading the thread but it's been hard to find the motivation to post since farside is being useless as shit and reinoe is still scum and everybody that isn't voting for him appears to be quite set in their ways. I really can't understand how the hell SK is still managing to draw the ire of half the fucking playerlist.

I don't want to replace out, I told myself when I started this game that I was committed and I still am, but it's hard when right now I can't see this game ending in anything but a scum win over a town that deserves to lose.

How am I useless?

You're voting for CoolDoG (a wagon that isn't going to happen today) while spending most of your time pointlessly arguing with SK. You've been arguing with him since pretty much right at the start of the day, what has it achieved?

The former. You do post a lot but so does reinoe and farside has barely touched on him except to dismiss the case against him in a couple of words, I think it was due to meta or something (lol).

Maybe you could explain why Renoie is scum? Not meta by the way I actually explain skrew's flaws in his case so???

Reinow is scum because he relies on bombast and melodrama to try and make cases where cases don't exist and because he doesn't pay attention to the game. Look at his posting in the immediate aftermath of this rather spectacular failure - he basically gives up and starts posting a bunch of non sequitur stuff until some other people start posting and he realises that yes, this town is indeed dumb enough not to lynch him.

[Cyberbob]

Reinoe*

[Cyberbob]

She has been the most protown player d1

and probably most worthy of doc protection.

Bait taken.

Go ahead, explain your thoughts on why that was a bad comment.

If it really was "bait" then you already know why it was a bad comment.

[Cyberbob]

Cyber bob: I'm not sure why not double checking things and accusing the wrong player = scum.

If you don't see why failing to pay attention is scummy then I guess I don't know what to say really.

[Cyberbob]

The attacking farside is definitely damning because she's been really pro-town in her behavior.

I'm not calling farside scummy, I'm calling her useless. See? Right here:

farside is being useless as shit

The rest of your post is not-even-bothering-to-pretend-to-be-subtle manoeuvring towards an OMGUS vote. Thanks for the lack of adroitness I guess.

[Cyberbob]

Cyberbob: Who besides renioe do you have a scum read on?

Goofy.

Cyber bob: I'm not sure why not double checking things and accusing the wrong player = scum.

If you don't see why failing to pay attention is scummy then I guess I don't know what to say really.

So your false statement about me defending renioe on meta should be look at as scummy.
Good to know.

I said "I think due to meta or something", I know you brought up meta a whole bunch at the very least but I wasn't sure if you'd actually done much else because quite honestly your posts are hard to follow at the best of times (let alone when you're in full swing arguing with SK).

[Cyberbob]

For all you know, I was lying about bait, and am scum. Why not express your thoughts and maybe it proves my guilt down the road?

Or are you worried I caught you in something...

No.

[Cyberbob]

No.

[Cyberbob]

It's another one of those game theory things but even worse than the "town case" things. It isn't really scummy but it's anti-town and generally dumb as hell. I'm not going into why because a) I can't be bothered and b) power role discussion generally gives more information to the scum than is desirable.

[Cyberbob]

If you'll just read my post you'll see that I did in fact "pay attention" to those posts, I just had issues deciphering their meaning and figuring out what exactly you were saying. I mean I would have thought there was a difference between doing that and simply not reading at all but who am I to pass judgement on these things

[Cyberbob]

I'm not admitting to a mistake.

[Cyberbob]

I did not use meta as a defense. I stated I knew Renoie and felt I was good at reading renioe, that's a statement, not a defense.

It

is

a defence when it is being used, when you are presented with posts of his that most people would consider scummy, as a reason why you don't think he is acting as "scum reinoe" in this game.

It's a terrible thing to use anyway given that he has said multiple times that he carefully tailors his style of posting according to however he feels like playing a given game.

[Cyberbob]

It's another one of those game theory things but even worse than the "town case" things. It isn't really scummy but it's anti-town and generally dumb as hell. I'm not going into why because a) I can't be bothered and b) power role discussion generally gives more information to the scum than is desirable.

My thoughts on farside being considered for a doc claim help scum out none-what-so-ever.

Two scenarios:

1) I am the doc. If I am, my comment to the rest of the group would just be playing cat and mouse with the scum. "Is there a doc, if so, would they listen to IAI's suggestion about protecting Farside". I may or may not really have that intention myself...but putting that doubt there does serve my purposes.

2) I am not the doc (someone else is, or there is none). Why the heck would they listen to me outright, not knowing my alignment, and even if they did, trust my instincts on farside. Truth is, they wouldn't listen to me outright. Would they consider it....yes, which was my purpose. Scum will know they will consider it and may be enough to keep them from blindly killing her N1. Paranoia for the scum is a GOOD THING.

So in all, it hurts town absolutely in no way, and only messes with scum's head.

So dumb, I disagree. But I do think it was an easy way to see if I could get scum to jump on me over that comment. Like I said, bait taken.

No.

[Cyberbob]

These were my comments to Skrew about his issues against Renoie.

I'm tired of this fucking ad hom. Stop. Just respond to stuff without unnecessary personal attacks.

Anyway that rebuttal was awful and I really don't want to have to waste time countering it so please nobody make me do so

Besides the personal attack why do you not like renioe 's reasoning?

The TL'DR part is he didn't have six scum reads. The 3 he asked about where those he found scummy. The other 3 were lurkers and asking who was scum amount the lurker.

@renioe
Now I'm going to say tone it down. I know I'm frustrated with sleepy on a certain level but some lines are unnecessary here.

Now Drew go back and reread 291 and 381 and either vote for reinoe or tell me why I'm wrong.

Because renioe explained here
And here his reasoning.
His thought process and who he thought was scum.

Neither mentions meta.

I don't care about that weird "lists of scum" stuff, that's all been SK. I think reinoe is scum because of his early game antics pushing a case on SK out of thin air and because of his reaction after he made that big fuckup. What do you think about those two things?

[Cyberbob]

Cyber: please link where I used someone's case

That would be rather hard as I never said you did anything of the sort?

and I used meta as a reason to debunk the case

Doesn't hurt renioe and I have a history either.

[Cyberbob]

One day not to long ago there was a crazy person that claimed scum from the start and was scum.
There was also a crazy person who claimed a cop role and there was a cop in that game. The person who faked claim was town.
So when I see crazy and stupid stuff it's null tiki I see what else the player does.

lmao this town is going to lose and lose hard.

[Cyberbob]

i got broken again

i'm going to bed

see you all tomorrow.

[Cyberbob]

or maybe the next day. we'll see how i feel tomorrow. i'm going to have to do some serious mental regrouping to come back from this.

[Cyberbob]

I got prodded. I posted when I woke up that day and saw that I'd been prodded.

[Cyberbob]

[Cyberbob]

I don't know when that emote was put in but I'm glad it was. It's been my crutch this game

[Cyberbob]

Town is going to lose and reinoe is going to blame everyone other than him and continue on his merry way making games unpleasant and artificially difficult. But that's life. He wouldn't be the first and he won't be the last.

Unvote

until I get home tonight and have a chance to catch up on the last couple of pages more thoroughly.

[Cyberbob]

I'm really glad farside switched off CD, I was experiencing an unhealthy desire to just say 'fuck it' and hammer in spite of how awful that would have been.

Part of me can't get past the idea of the neighbours claim being faked, it's probably the easiest PR for scum to fakeclaim. That isn't me secretly still angling for a reinoe lynch, that's just me hoping that he and Dessew don't get a 100% free ride because of it. Something to keep in mind.

I could get on board with the RC wagon, this post:

CD's claim and him throwing up his arms seemed a bit fake to me. Look, it's time to end this day, imo. Drew? Bob?

Brings to mind the earlier buddying vibes I was getting from him. As far as the call for the day to end, my heart understands just wanting to put this abortion of a day to bed but my head doesn't think that the reasoning against CD remotely warrants such an explicit fast lynch (this sentence is terrible but fuck it I can't be bothered rewriting it, hopefully people can read it).

Vote: RedCoyote

I would have been okay with the Drew wagon as well because quite frankly his defence of reinoe was terrible logically speaking - assuming that reinoe is in fact town it kind of seems like scum acting with foreknowledge of his alignment. That kind of case is difficult to follow through to a lynch on Day 1 though with the total lack of flip information.

[Cyberbob]

This game. Seriously, this game.

Unvote, Vote: Drew-Sta

[Cyberbob]

The reason I'm not voting CD is kind of meta-ish I guess, he's kind of a neurotic person in general so it doesn't really ring any scum bells for me when I see him getting frantic in mafia. It's the kind of behaviour that I think he would display no matter his alignment.

[Cyberbob]

How is Bodyguard easy to fake though? Let alone easier to fake than Neighbours?

[Cyberbob]

Bodyguard is not less likely to be counterclaimed than neighbours. A doctor (which is a very common role) would counterclaim it because having two town protection roles in a normal mini would be ridiculous. Drawing out a doctor is the only reason I can think of for scum to fakeclaim bodyguard.

[Cyberbob]

Bodyguard is not less likely to be counterclaimed than neighbours. A doctor (which is a very common role) would counterclaim it because having two town protection roles in a normal mini would be ridiculous. Drawing out a doctor is the only reason I can think of for scum to fakeclaim bodyguard.

No a doctor should not counter claim at this point.

"Drawing out a doctor is the only reason I can think of for scum to fakeclaim bodyguard" and this is absolutely true, which is why I am wondering if you were rolefishing on my original reason for not believing RC.

I figured it goes without saying that I agree that a doctor should not counterclaim. You're one loopy guy, IAI.

[Cyberbob]

Saying something dumb and wrong just to try and spring some kind of AHA YOU'RE ROLEFISHING trap on someone when they point out that you are wrong is a questionable tactic at best I would have thought

[Cyberbob]

I'm going to bed. Good night!

[Cyberbob]

CD is still an infinitely worse wagon than Drew, I'd vote CD to avoid No Lynch obviously since I believe that most of what he's been doing recently has been a null tell rather than a town tell. This RC crap from IAI and Drew is seriously terrible though. He isn't gettng lynched today which means either it's trying to set up his lynch tomorrow in advance (please don't argue the toss over why this is scummy) or it's trying to distract people away from remembering that a Drew lynch is still a viable target.

[Cyberbob]

CD should stop voting for himself and SK should stop voting for an even more unlikely lynch target than RC and get onboard the Drew train, mhm.

[Cyberbob]

Personal attack! Personal attack! IAI! Aren't those supposed to be scummy?

[Cyberbob]

I'm actually reasonably serious in wanting a response from him.

[Cyberbob]

Not particularly, no.

[Cyberbob]

In no small part due to the fact that going through all your posts would take longer than we have left in the day, but also because I feel like I've already justified my vote on you pretty well. This is a strange line of defence.

Also please don't try and tell me we have the same read on RC when we do not.

[Cyberbob]

Imagine quoting a post saying that you did a certain thing for terrible reasons and using terrible logic and rebutting it with "ARE YOU SAYING THAT ANY TIME SOMEONE DOES THAT THING ITS SCUMMY"

[Cyberbob]

Referring to Drew's characterisation of my reaction to his earlier defence of reinoe's various issues back before he claimed

[Cyberbob]

Those lynching CD will have a harder time defending their decision to do so than they will mislynching me.

Are you really trying to twist the fact that there are better reasons for lynching you than CD into some kind of a defence? Seriously?

[Cyberbob]

farside also defended me for "meta" reasons just like Drew.

Wasn't this myth (originally propagated by me) already busted (when farside called me out on it)?

[Cyberbob]

a) Not your call to make.
b) You are literally suggesting that we lynch someone other than you because your wagon is 'easier to justify'. There are good reasons why your wagon is easier to justify (it's because you're scummier)

[Cyberbob]

Like seriously, I've seen (and made) some weak defences in my time but this one has to be up there.

[Cyberbob]

ATTN CoolDoG and SKrew: it's time to vote Drew.

[Cyberbob]

I also don't think CD is scum, FWIW. I'm doing this to prevent Goody and RC from mislynching me as I feel like the flip of CD will show them up more than it will show me.

Everyone look at this post.

[Cyberbob]

What do you think?

[Cyberbob]

Do most townies explicitly admit to pushing wagons on people they think are town?

[Cyberbob]

some of the shit I've seen people defend in all seriousness this game is out of this world

[Cyberbob]

Do most townies explicitly admit to pushing wagons on people they think are town?

When deadline in near and the alternative is themselves? 100% yes

If you and a town read was both at the same spot, what would you do?

I would push my scum read regardless so that people in later days would have as much scumhunting as possible to read back on that they can at least know is being done in good faith

jesus christ

[Cyberbob]

I feel like half this game signed up specifically to set out to give me an aneurysm

[Cyberbob]

Shouldn't cooldog be voting his scum read?

I did not fucking defend Renoie with meta! For fuck sake!

God I officially hate this game.

Hi farside

Vote Drew please

[Cyberbob]

Do most townies explicitly admit to pushing wagons on people they think are town?

No, but does scum?

There's
No
Such
Thing
As
"
Too
Scummy
To
Be
Scum
"

[Cyberbob]

Why does any of that matter right now? What bearing does that have on these wagons at this exact point in time?

[Cyberbob]

That's cool and all but it doesn't answer my question. PS vote Drew

[Cyberbob]

Do most townies explicitly admit to pushing wagons on people they think are town?

When deadline in near and the alternative is themselves? 100% yes

If you and a town read was both at the same spot, what would you do?

I would push my scum read regardless so that people in later days would have as much scumhunting as possible to read back on that they can at least know is being done in good faith

jesus christ

So you'd let yourself get lynched? I find that hard to believe

I would not "let" myself get lynched but I sure as shit would not try and push a counterwagon on someone I thought was town. That's just about the most anti-town thing I can possibly think of.

[Cyberbob]

That's cool and all but it doesn't answer my question. PS vote Drew

Cool has 5 votes and Drew has 5 votes. I think cool is scum and wagon is good. How Drew flips may change things my perspective. You don't think about that?

It's something to keep in mind for the future but it doesn't really have any bearing on the cases right now.

[Cyberbob]

also vote drew

[Cyberbob]

Avoiding a NL is the only legitimate reason I can think of offhand to vote for a town read. Too bad that isn't what Drew is doing!

If people genuinely don't go back and reread the opinions and interactions with other players that dead people have had then the state of mafia is pretty fucked. I mean, what else do is there to do with flip information? There are all sorts of ways you can find scum by going back and looking at their attitudes towards wagons that ended up being on townies. The opinions of a dead townie might not necessarily be

correct

but they are literally the only opinions you can say with certainty that were formed in good faith.

[Cyberbob]

Avoiding a NL is the only legitimate reason I can think of offhand to vote for a town read. Too bad that isn't what Drew is doing!

If people genuinely don't go back and reread the opinions and interactions with other players that dead people have had then the state of mafia is pretty fucked. I mean, what else do is there to do with flip information? There are all sorts of ways you can find scum by going back and looking at their attitudes towards wagons that ended up being on townies. The opinions of a dead townie might not necessarily be

correct

but they are literally the only opinions you can say with certainty that were formed in good faith.

Do you even know why cd has his scum list.
Are you going to sit there with a straight face and you 100% agree with his scum reads, with the "reasons" he stated.
I use the word reasons loosely because he doesn't explain much of them at all when asked.

You didn't read a single word of what I wrote. I can tell you didn't because I specifically wrote these words which directly address what you are saying:

The opinions of a dead townie might not necessarily be

correct

but they are literally the only opinions you can say with certainty that were formed in good faith.

The opinions of a dead townie might not necessarily be

correct

[Cyberbob]

I mean it, show me the conviction from cd that makes his reads valuable if you believe he is town?

I'm talking about

looking back at dead townies in later days

. Seriously What The Fuck

[Cyberbob]

Avoiding a NL is the only legitimate reason I can think of offhand to vote for a town read. Too bad that isn't what Drew is doing!

If people genuinely don't go back and reread the opinions and interactions with other players that dead people have had then the state of mafia is pretty fucked. I mean, what else do is there to do with flip information? There are all sorts of ways you can find scum by going back and looking at their attitudes towards wagons that ended up being on townies. The opinions of a dead townie might not necessarily be

correct

but they are literally the only opinions you can say with certainty that were formed in good faith.

I switch to avoid a NL and you call me scum. I switch to my main scum read, as you argue I should, and I'm scum / neg town.

I can't win in your equation. Every option has me as scum. Do you see the craziness of that?

Bob's point is you didn't say you were voting cool for deadline purposes. You were just voting him and saying he was a town read.

Ready last paragraph and what I bolded from RC. My intent was the change to work with town on the belief it is better to have a lynch than a no lynch.

I also don't think CD is scum, FWIW. I'm doing this to prevent Goody and RC from mislynching me as I feel like the flip of CD will show them up more than it will show me.

[Cyberbob]

*takes deep breathe*

Not sure why, your posts aren't the ones being directly responded to without having been read

[Cyberbob]

That's more like it!

[Cyberbob]

the cooldog lynch can still happen, I hav faith

Nope

[Cyberbob]

Please address the issue of Drew's personal attack against me IAI. You did say personal attacks were scummy right?

[Cyberbob]

Please address the issue of Drew's personal attack against me IAI. You did say personal attacks were scummy right?

For all you know, I was lying about bait, and am scum. Why not express your thoughts and maybe it proves my guilt down the road?

Or are you worried I caught you in something...

No.

Ditto

Not surprising, but thank you for putting in writing your inconsistency in applying your own "theories" for later

[Cyberbob]

Do you know how many times those dead townies received my vote? ZERO.

You don't say?

Vote: I Am Innocent

[Cyberbob]

Hi Bob, how predictable.

I notice you on both those wagons, huh? Very curious...

You've been dropping all these "clever and mysterious" little hints about how you think I'm so scummy for some time now, why don't you get your suspicion of me in writing (so to speak) and put a vote down? Are you scared of being seen to start a wagon?

[Cyberbob]

CoolDoG/IAI team very possible. Will need to go back and read up on their interactions again at some point.

[Cyberbob]

That was way back when wagons were a dime a dozen, at this point in the game wagons are of much more import. Why don't you give it a shot? See how it feels.

[Cyberbob]

CoolDoG/IAI team very possible. Will need to go back and read up on their interactions again at some point.

Two flips and this is all you got?

There is something that doesn't line up with regard to what happen N1, which is why I'm just a tad hesitant to vote RC. I actually think of the two of you, that in the off chance, you're not scummates, that your the scum. I was curious to see if anyone else noticed this, though I haven't seen it brought up, even by RC himself.

This is sooooo scary but

vote Cyberbob

Did I really just start a wagon on you....twice this game! Yikes...

I know right!? It's so exciting. It only took like three posts to finally goad you into it!

[Cyberbob]

CD mentioned IAI all of two times yesterday despite IAI throwing all sorts of accusations and votes his way. Not wanting to react too hard to a bus?

[Cyberbob]

Why not? IAI provided his own scumtell in his attempt to show off how strangely accurate his voting pattern was yesterday and since he was voting for CD at the end of the day I had the idea of checking up on their interactions with each other.

[Cyberbob]

(Also I believe I had CD as more of a null read for most of yesterday than a town read)

[Cyberbob]

Bob: vote cooldog.

Sorry but this is the first bit of pressure IAI's been under all game and his reaction thus far has been so gooooood

[Cyberbob]

Posting to let people know I'm still here and reading or whatever, I've just been quite ill since Monday which is making it difficult to sit down and post properly

[Cyberbob]

Consistent activity from a majority of the players has been an issue for most of the game, I chalked some of it yesterday up to the reinoe/SK thing turning people off but it hasn't really picked up today either.

CD's replace out doesn't really change much about my opinion of him/singer, IAI is still very much my favoured lynch today. Once again I'm struggling to get too excited about a case farside is making (this time on pops), I believe his response to it (Post 1254) was misread by farside and SK. I am having a bit of trouble following farside's Post 1265 though.

Beck is giving me weird vibes today, I do not believe that he is really putting any effort in. I would like to see the CD case he promised us in Post 1237 for starters.

[Cyberbob]

It isn't your sarcasm and it isn't you being a woman, I genuinely can't parse some of your sentences and trains of thought. Like this section from 1265 in particular:

Meta on pops scum is that he tends to bus his scum buddy if there in trouble. He doesn't go out of his way to defend his buddy. Cd's behavior not only would have been easy to bus, but defend....it literally is senseless.
It's like sitting yourself together once one flips scum and pops is definitely more old school scum the crazy.

Given pops very weak cases and staying off cd over Drew maybe to look as scum together just to stay off the wagon.

The first two sentences are obviously pretty basic but everything after that is proving a very tough nut to crack.

[Cyberbob]

Thanks for restating it, I totally understand what you're saying now. It wasn't the concepts so much as it was the actual English sentences themselves that I couldn't follow. I have no issue with the scum meta you're using, but remind me again why I also had CD as more of a null read + voted Drew yet you don't appear to suspect me for it in the same way you're going after pops?

[Cyberbob]

I'm more interested for now in your thoughts on IAI, as far as I can tell you haven't really touched on his case thus far today.

[Cyberbob]

Do you know how many times those dead townies received my vote? ZERO.

You don't say?

Vote: I Am Innocent

Hi Bob, how predictable.

I notice you on both those wagons, huh? Very curious...

You've been dropping all these "clever and mysterious" little hints about how you think I'm so scummy for some time now, why don't you get your suspicion of me in writing (so to speak) and put a vote down? Are you scared of being seen to start a wagon?

CD mentioned IAI all of two times yesterday despite IAI throwing all sorts of accusations and votes his way. Not wanting to react too hard to a bus?

Why not? IAI provided his own scumtell in his attempt to show off how strangely accurate his voting pattern was yesterday and since he was voting for CD at the end of the day I had the idea of checking up on their interactions with each other.

[Cyberbob]

Also IAI thinks I'm scum for pushing a wagon that ended up being on a town player on Day 1.

[Cyberbob]

Well it was more the thing about weirdly touting himself as super town for having avoided

both

wagons than the stuff about calling me scum over the Drew wagon (I threw that in there because it's funny)

I'm about to go to bed but I'll try and give my thoughts on pops tomorrow after work.

[Cyberbob]

Agh. I intended to make some posts yesterday but work called me back in and it turned out to be an extremely exhausting shift.

To be honest I'm not 100% sure what to make of pops, if he is scum it would be fair to say that he's successfully flying under my radar. I can say that I very much don't like this post:

IAI's not a bad lynch. I liked his recent posting but his day one posting was pretty lackluster.

IAI's recent posting has been terrible. He calls himself guaranteed town because he never voted for two flipped town players - one of whom was only flipped by a scum kill. His five point "theory" of scum behaviour is shit. This post from pops does feel like it could plausibly be scum manoeuvring around from a previous "town read" into a bus. Always be on the lookout for wishy-washy reactions like this.

The obvious catch here is that it's one of those reads that is predicated on someone else's alignment (I don't think pops-scum would have the same attitude towards IAI if IAI were town). IAI is still the best lynch today.

[Cyberbob]

I didn't think you were scum day 1 for tunnelling Beck's slot too hard.

[Cyberbob]

First and foremost:
We've got 12 players, so there's at most 3 scums, I guess, otherwise it's probably a major overkill. Let us assume that each and every player has voted three other players. The chance of a townie voting town alll three instances (assuming random votes) is 8/11*7/10*6/9=.339, it's not much, tbf. So the chance of voting at least one scum is voted is 1-8/11*7/10*6/9=.661. There are three scums and three confirmed towns (as IAI claims he's conftown for himself (which is equivalent to being town), OTOH, iirc, he doesn't consider RC conftown, yet) that leaves us with 6 unconfirmed towns. The chance that all of them voting at least one scum is (1-8/11*7/10*6/9)^6=.083. It means that the chance of at least one of them voting no scum is friggin .916. Jesus, Mary and Saint fucking Joseph, IAI's primary reason to scumread Bob is AWFUL.
And before some sentimental comments, yes, it's absolutely reasonable to assume random votes.

IAI's reason for declaring himself town is probably even more questionable, it was awfully convenient for him that the other town member that he never voted for/I did vote for was chosen for death by scum last night. He wasn't terribly backwards in being forward about this either - it came, totally unprompted, in his second post in Day 2.

[Cyberbob]

Scum want town lynched.

Two town are dead.

Cyberscum, you and four others went after both of them. Do you think (well you prob know) that there is more likely scum in this group vs the group that did not vote for them? When I flip town and farside dies tonight, you have the same group of 5 and likely mylo. Where are you going from there?

Dessew, no offense, but I have zero desire to play with you ever again. If I get lynched today, and you do not auto vote cyber bob tomorrow, I will policy vote you every game going forward until your lynched. If you are town you are a detriment to your team.

And phone posting stinks, but you can ISO me D2 and pretty easily find where I was hesitant to vote RC, and later the reasoning for it. It was the same thought process you have, hence why I think you are less likely scum.

lmao

[Cyberbob]

Super response in 1423

[Cyberbob]

I already made some soz xxoo ttyl

[Cyberbob]

Actually pops is the new hotness conditional read but thanks for not reading my posts, it puts a spring in my step every time

[Cyberbob]

IAI, please comment on your egregious mistake and failure to read posts

[Cyberbob]

Drunk scum?

[Cyberbob]

Definitely drunk scum. Going to bed, looking forward to an entertaining 10 or 15 incoherent one line posts to read tomorrow

[Cyberbob]

@players I think there may have been an issue with my outbox several days ago that should now be fixed
I have sent 2 prods to cyberbob and redcoyote. The first prod to each user is still in my outbox. The second prod to each is not.
When a user goes to their inbox all messages should be out of the senders outbox. How the second went gone and first did not, puzzles me
Goofy's prod is out of my outbox so things should be fixed. Cyber and Red can you re-check your inboxes for me and let me know if you both received 2 prods?

I may consider a rule change from "2 prods and 3rd time you out" to "3 prods and 4th time you out" should there indeed be proof my outbox fails

I received both prods

As far as game shit goes I just got home, am drunk, is nearly 5am. Will deal with stuff tomorrow once I recover

[Cyberbob]

Don't go changing

[Cyberbob]

@Cyberbob - do you have any reason at all I should think IAI is scum? I keep looking at these cases (and drunk rambles) for why pops is town and I'm all like 'oooh, they're long, and have *quotes* in them!" so I'm all like, guess maybe they must be true! Can you explain why you're not voting for pops already and seem to have this insane belief that poor IAI is scum?

If you took the time to read my posts today you'd see that I have already said why I think he is scummy a number of times.

[Cyberbob]

Want to make an easy link - or are you happy with what Dessew said and endorse it as your case?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6114978

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6122259

[Cyberbob]

I'll admit I don't get the Drew vote issue - that seems reasonable as an action paired with his stated beliefs. Maybe I'm just dumb and am missing it, but I don't really see the fire there.

He is saying that he voted Drew because he HAD to pick one of Drew/CD, and decided that Drew was a slightly less bad choice. What actually happened was he called Drew scummy. Has pops ever even tried to contest this point?

Yeah, but, what exactly was the scum plan there?

I called this guy scummy before, but *now* I need to distance from it - haha!

It doesn't really make sense. Also, the picking of Drew over Dog does make sense from his expressed reads on both, and he made the comment that he thought Dog was less likely to be scum, and voted someone both of you agree he had called scummy and did this in preference of voting a claimed PR though he was expressing his issue with the PR. It just doesn't sound either disassociated from his reads nor does it seem like some brilliantly needed scum distance - he basically voted someone he called scummy and pointed out that he found another player less scummy than them.

This is something I pointed out earlier in the day as well, it is my biggest issue with the pops wagon. His more recent weirdness in relation to IAI is the primary reason I am somewhat okay with his lynch over most others. IAI is a huuuugely better lynch.

[Cyberbob]

Wasn't the Vig claim made *after* the lynch had happened? Because I read IAI calling people scummy for lynching a provable role - but that only makes sense if the claim came prior to the lynch.

Bingo! Bingo! Bingo!

It doesn't make sense. At all. Along with literally everything else that has come out of his mouth this game.

[Cyberbob]

Farside I'm about to blow my fucking top

[Cyberbob]

Wasn't the Vig claim made *after* the lynch had happened? Because I read IAI calling people scummy for lynching a provable role - but that only makes sense if the claim came prior to the lynch.

Bingo! Bingo! Bingo!

It doesn't make sense. At all. Along with literally everything else that has come out of his mouth this game.

You seem to no issue with pops who has made absolutely zero effect in scum hunting. Any reason why?

This is not what I have been saying at all read my fucking posts jesus christ you have no idea how frustrating it is to be told all game how supposedly stubborn I am by someone who so blissfully refuses to pay the slightest amount of attention to anything

[Cyberbob]

Top blown. See you guys tomorrow.

[Cyberbob]

(he's asking you what you think of me by the way, it's very subtle)

[Cyberbob]

Lurk much?

More like work much!

[Cyberbob]

RC: it makes "sense" (it doesn't) when you realise that IAI thinks that only scum can be on town wagons, especially unclaimed PRs (that scum wouldn't know about on D1 either)

[Cyberbob]

I feel like there's some significance in the fact that pops has spent so long at L-1 without being hammered but I can't remember whether Mafia Theory has that as an indication of scum or town. I want to say scum but I would have expected a bus hammer by now if he was scum (assuming that there are scum on the IAI wagon) since it's usually in scum's interest to have days that are as short as possible

[Cyberbob]

Let's go into hypothery for a moment. If one wagon is town and the other is scum then does it make sense to bus?

Before RC stated his explicit intent to hammer? No. After? Possibly. I think there are good reasons both to bus and not to bus, trending more towards bussing the longer the day goes on without a hammer. On the other hand they might be worried that hammering at any point would draw suspicion tomorrow. (all of this is assuming both that pops is scum and RC is town) In conclusion: it's terribly WIFOM, but I am positive that someone better at mafia theory than me has worked out a general rule about it in the past.

[Cyberbob]

There's a difference between mad and insulting.

Let's see after pokerface shows alignment if I have a right to be insulting people.

Mafia is a game.

[Cyberbob]

No hard feelings IAI, though I'm not scum and you do seriously have some strange ideas about mafia theory

[Cyberbob]

I am facepalming in the nicest way possible

[Cyberbob]

I'm hiding? That's news to me.

[Cyberbob]

My posting has been empty since the hammer because I don't really have all that much to say, my eyes glaze over every time I see farside's name and she's been doing a lot of the posting since then. I also had a terribly busy day at work yesterday and slept until like 5pm today so I really haven't had a lot of home time where I was actually conscious to spend on posting.

[Cyberbob]

I also don't like those fast votes. I think it's probable that pops is scum but there are 2 other scum in this game that we need to find at some point (let's be real here, it's a 3 man scum team). This would have been an incredibly easy game to coast through as scum with so much town on town crossfire. I'll be doing a proper reread but my current gut instincts are pointing towards singer and either SK or Goofy.

Having said that, I don't know if we should completely rule out Konowa/Beck/Squirrel Girl based on farside's info. I could be wrong but doesn't a Tracker return a non-result if they target scum that aren't the ones that submitted the NK?

[Cyberbob]

She's been coasting real hard from the moment she replaced CoolDoG, who did strike me as fairly pro-town but his wagon did weirdly stall at like L-1 or something before Drew ended up getting lynched if I recall.

[Cyberbob]

Damn. Sorry, farside. I really screwed this one up. That teaches this game to listen to me as town.

I protected Dessew last night, of course. I figured he would've been the kill for sure.

I also looked over farside's posting and the only thing that seems to stick out to me is that I think she probably tracked a Konowa innocent on N1. I agree with Dessew. Nothing else really makes sense given that she was not a fan of Konowa and then she backed off of him during D2.

I'm happy to vote pops today, but I need to hear more from Goofy. I agree with Dessew, his post today is unsatisfactory.

I didn't actually mean that Konowa part seriously... Damn, I should just stick posting things that are strictly game-related, it's not the first time I screwed up in this game. Anyway, what RC says certainly makes sense.

All I have now is that I managed to make up my mind about something I've been thinking lately (so no actualy new stuff, at least from my point of view.) Based on this, I think Bob has just townslipped:

I think it's probable that pops is scum but there are 2 other scum in this game that we need to find at some point (let's be real here, it's a 3 man scum team).

Because I hardly doubt it is a three-man team. Let's see, I wouldn't attempt to use my own sense of balance, as I haven't proven to have any, but let's look at the setup, what we know.
There are 12 players. Two neighbours, one bodyguard (I believe RC's claim), one vigilante and one tracker, which is just a nerfed cop, actually, and there's a roleblocker on the other side. Now, if you drop the neighbours, but make the tracker a cop and the whole setup open (instead of closed), you make the town much stronger. Notice how there's already a protective, an informative and a killing role on town's side and a blocking role on scum's side.

I don't think a vigilante changes balance as much as you think it does, more often than not they only make life tougher for the town. Trackers can expose PRs just as well as they can expose scum (and like I said before I believe they only get a result on scum if they target the scum that submitted the kill which both opens the door for all sorts of confusion and pre-emptive "confirmed town"). If a bodyguard is successful then they still die, still resulting in one less town member. I'm not really familiar with the term "townslip" but if you're suggesting I'm scum or something for saying it's extremely likely that there are 3 scum with a roleblocker in a town with a bunch of shitty PRs then all I can say is you're overreaching.

[Cyberbob]

Oh, okay. Well I'm not going to dispute being called town too hard but I still strongly disagree with the notion of anything other than 3 scum.

3 scum means the game could potentially have ended after just 2 mislynches though.

Which is why I said that a vig is a very swingy role and I'm honestly glad that Drew got lynched on Day 1 because I don't think he had the reads to hit scum. Are you saying it could be just two scum purely because of the presence of a vig?

[Cyberbob]

I do too but even more than that I want to not quicklynch someone when we're most likely in mylo.

[Cyberbob]

If we quicklynch the chance for discussion to kickstart itself is 0%

If we don't quicklynch the chance for discussion to kickstart itself is more than 0%

[Cyberbob]

I have not been enjoying this game.

If it's mylo, there's not much use in me leaving my reads behind, huh? So I mighty well skip that.

If it's mylo and you are town then by not even attempting to defend yourself or show that you are town in any way you're basically working against your win condition.

[Cyberbob]

Alright well I'm getting bored, I don't really care about SK thinking he's onto something when he isn't and aside from that there isn't a whole lot else going on that's offering up any real alternative to pops for today's lynch. I think there's still murkiness surrounding RC's claim but it would seem that farside was the only person that could have supplied a confirmation in either direction. The lack of a counterclaim even in (potential if we're really getting pedantic) mylo does lend some credibility to his story though.

I don't really have an opinion on the protection of Dessew; if scum Neighbours are as common as some people say they are then maybe that's a bit questionable but to me a scum Neighbour is kind of getting into bastard mod territory (especially in a Normal). Or is that scum Mason? Is there a difference between a Neighbour and a Mason? I honestly can't remember, if someone could clear that up for me that would be appreciated. I will say that if the two are indeed different then that changes things - not so relevant to today I suppose, I don't think it's strong enough of a reason in and of itself to go after Dessew when we are in mylo. To me lynching pops is still the best course of action no matter what and since I am unlikely to have much of a chance to post in the next two days (going to be working an absolute shitload) I'll just

Vote: popsofctown

[Cyberbob]

This must be bittersweet for farside

[Cyberbob]

Do you think we're in mylo or lylo?

Mylo. For us to be in lylo there'd have to be a ridiculously large number of scum for 12 players.

Also neighbors are designed to be unknown alignments to both their partners and then the rest of the game when confirmed there is at least the presence of a neighbor (be it mod confirmation or a flip). I'm surprised you don't know that...

Well I mean it's not like I've had mafia roles and theory on my mind a whole lot for the last year and however many months (6?). Also I don't think I ever really liked the mason role so I never really spent too much time thinking about it back when I was playing.

What do you make of pops' scum team if you're voting in a MIS/LYNCH or lose situation.

I'm still leaning towards you, albeit for reasons partly beyond your control - CoolDoG's wagon stalling at L-1 before he ended up hammering Drew was pretty questionable looking back on it but you did coast pretty hard for a while after you replaced in. Aside from that I'm not too sure. I think (logically sound, hi IAI) wagon analysis might be the key to this game for the town since there have been so many players doing weird and anti-town things. I plan on looking hard at pops' voting history tomorrow (assuming I'm not killed tonight, yadda yadda yadda) and I hope other people will be doing the same.

[Cyberbob]

Woot woot!

Vote: Cyberbob

Don't you think it's a little late in the piece to be making unjustified votes and forcing people to pull your reasons out of you?

[Cyberbob]

Singer, in your last couple of posts of yesterday you said you had been looking at SG 'without rose tinted glasses' and then in your very next post said you were looking to confirm her overnight. Now you've just questioned Goofy's vote on her. What conclusion did you come to during your rose-tinted-glasses-less read of her (and I assume her predecessors)?

[Cyberbob]

I said that about CD's L-1 wagon yesterday I didn't notice that it was pops that derailed it though!

Vote: singersigner

[Cyberbob]

I don't mean to be sinking the boot in but why would you sign up to replace into a game if you're not prepared for the possibility that you might be attacked based on what your predecessor did?

[Cyberbob]

Feel free to explain your mylo vote on me whenever you feel like it by the way SG

[Cyberbob]

It really isn't sufficient to lean back and say 'lol its so obvious im not gonna bother unless someone is so dumb they need to ask' in this situation