Mini 1591: PFs Flavorless Normal (Game Over)

[Cyberbob]

It's always at least somewhat relevant who he claims to have protected even if he does have a roleblocker riding his coattails. I spent more time commenting on it yesterday because it was a much bigger point of contention than it has been so far today. And of course the lynch today is considerably less obvious than pops was yesterday so I'm spending more time and energy thinking about that today.

Posting on my phone so I'll leave it there until I get home

[Cyberbob]

(still not at home - found a couple of minutes while I'm on my break)

You're absolutely right that I neglected to follow up on that point, thank you for reminding me. I'm just coming out of a five or six day stretch of working more than 12 hours each day so I more or less forgot about it. You're right that I don't have a huge amount invested in the protects since if it is a fakeclaim then he already has an excuse in place for any failed actions (as we already saw - ***note that this is not the same thing as saying that his claimed protects are 100% irrelevant***). I guess the point I wanted to follow up on yesterday was not to totally let him off the hook over his claim towards the end of the game - something which I believe I did say a few days ago.

[Cyberbob]

Also singer you might as well just go ahead and vote me since you clearly are trying to manoeuvre yourself out of your previous 'town read'

[Cyberbob]

I didn't say anything like 'lol idk why i defended cooldog hehehe', I know exactly why I defended him and I'd do it again in the same position. My reasons for now thinking you are scum are a) you had nothing of any use to say for some time after you replaced in, b) cooldog's wagon stalling at L-1 before dropping off (something which I have also commented on previously) and c) the fact that pops was the one that initiated the counterwagon on Drew.

If you think these three reasons, largely things that I can't possibly have known or commented on before both your replacement and pops' flip, are poor enough reasons for changing my stance on a previous gut read that you might stand a chance of getting a mislynch on me to win the game for your scumteam, then by all means vote me.

[Cyberbob]

The rest of your post is pure WIFOM and as such it will be disregarded

[Cyberbob]

I agree, two people arguing about themselves isn't the most compelling thing ever.

How did we make it nearly 12 hours without a post?

[Cyberbob]

You're hilarious SG. This is the weakest shit I've ever seen, and not only is it the weakest shit I've ever seen, you're pushing it while we have a player slot in the game that had an L-1 wagon on it derailed by flipped scum. Good grief.

[Cyberbob]

This game.

[Cyberbob]

I have more I want to say about a couple of things singer said re the pops/CD/Drew saga but I have to get back to work, I'm going out tonight but I'll try and fit it in

[Cyberbob]

I'm back, though I feel barely alive... had an absolutely MONSTER of a night on Friday, didn't get home until 8am, slept until roughly 8pm, had a bite to eat, went straight back to bed and slept until mid-afternoon today.

Anyway the thing I wanted to say about this post by singer:

You're arguing that an L-1 wagon was derailed by a flipped scum and executed ON A CLAIMED VIG is more damning for the person at L-1 as opposed to someone who admittedly didn't care about weeding out a third claim?

Was that:
a) Drew didn't claim until after the hammer (which I see RC already brought up), you haven't been doing your reading. Even if he had claimed at L-1 I fail to see how that has any bearing on anything. Pops didn't hammer him, he just kickstarted his wagon.
b) It would have been entirely safe for pops to have simply just jumped on CoolDoG and ended the day, there were only a few people that were strongly opposed to his lynch. Most were at least ambivalent.
c) Now that we have all our facts in order, yes it is more damning.

[Cyberbob]

The fact that we're now relying on Goofy and Dessew to cast the deciding votes (both figuratively and literally) on this argument and also most likely the outcome of the game is somewhat concerning. I hope their inactivity is a result of IRL stuff and not a loss of interest.

[Cyberbob]

Well Dessew being the probable other scum is one thing you and I agree on.

[Cyberbob]

Well Dessew being the probable other scum is one thing you and I agree on.

But on a more serious note - yeah, I'm not surprised that your secondary read is him.

I thought you might say that. I'd be quite happy to do you a deal and vote him together today.

Singer is playing the emotion card on you really hard though.

[Cyberbob]

[Cyberbob]

What, try and convince scum that I'm town? Please. The only way you're getting your vote off me is if you thought it was too unsafe to leave it there and with SG having already confirmed a me/Dessew team in her mind that's not happening. It's essentially down to Goofy to resolve this since Dessew is probably your partner and bussing you at this stage would be tantamount to suicide.

[Cyberbob]

Unvote, Vote: Dessew

Might as well do something to try and break this stupid deadlock.

[Cyberbob]

My brain hurts now, I don't know what this means.

It means you need to look back over some of your posts and think about how badly your pre-existing reads have coloured your interpretations of some of the posts both singer and I have made. Jumping down my throat over my comment on a 12 hour lack of posts comes to mind. Iso singer and look at the ratio of actual scumhunting (random gut tells don't count) to white noise meta chat about how much it sucks to be a replacement.

also there's this stellar post

Fair enough. I've been out of the house all day today so I'll compare arguments tomorrow.

I remember you making a good point about pops in one of my first posts but I can't remember right now. Noting to look at tomorrow.

@SleepyKrew...

engagement

that eventually lead to an L-2 vote on pops with absolutely zero reasoning or any of the elucidation of her thought processes that was promised.

And Cyber can't have backed out once he made that comment and I called him on it.

This is a terrible characterisation of what happened here. Do you think I was secretly hoping to slip that post by you or something?

I just realized bussing isn't as prohibitive for scum as I thought it was today either.

You're still trying to twist this around in your head so that you don't have to change your mind on my alignment or take any kind of a step back from yourself and analyse this critically. As long as we lynch scum today I suppose I don't mind though.

[Cyberbob]

Oh no wait, I lied (ALERT ALERT). This was singer's followup to that post.

Pops what do you like about singers play?

Yeah what

do

you like about my play...

And I remember, it was something about the scum thing farside brought up about pops but then she confused me with another comment about it making me forget I liked it when she stated it more clearly in the first place.

There...that's it. I don't remember why I said if probably vote for IAI, I think I meant pops.

A+ content here. I take back everything I said about singer, she has obviously been paying a serious amount of attention to this game all along. You can tell by the _________________________________ and also all the ____________________________.

[Cyberbob]

I personally think a vote on Pops without trying to claw much attention to the effort is more likely to come from town than scum.

what





what

anyway she didn't try to hide from attention, she just did this:

Meoooow.

I like wine.

And voting.

vote: popsofclown

teh random lollery its just like we were still in rvs XD

I didn't think you expected to slip it by me, I think you might have hoped I didn't go for it.

Ah yes good job, you called my bluff. How did you know!?!?

What is your response to Singer's call about you and her emotional meta? She dinged you with that and I'm looking for clarification, but I noticed that you never addressed it directly - why is that?

There isn't really much to respond to, I guess I'll say that I have an incredibly vaguer-than-vague memory of how she plays as either town or scum since it's been god knows how long since I really thought about mafia, let alone actually played a game of mafia, let alone actually put much thought into individual player metas, let alone actually put much thought into her individual meta. I don't even think I used to put a whole lot of stock in meta tells because of how easily they are to manipulate.

Long story short: I don't remember how she used to play and I wouldn't really care if I did.

[Cyberbob]

You actually are sort of half right ish about the Dessew thing though: I wasn't expecting you to go for it, I was expecting you to blather on about how much of an obvious bus it supposedly is (which you kind of did) and keep your vote on me anyway.

[Cyberbob]

Iso singer and look at the ratio of actual scumhunting (random gut tells don't count) to white noise meta chat about how much it sucks to be a replacement.

Also if you don't do this I will be forced to write a sternly worded post about how you are dodging it and questioning your motivation for doing so.

[Cyberbob]

Generally I feel that when scum decide it is time to bus that they would want to, y'know, get some props for the bus. So they tend to try to claw some of the prestige of the wagon to themselves. Make a case, point out a tell, do something to help make it look like they 'caught' the scum or at least helped in the catch. The lazier the vote, the more likely I feel it is to come from town. So, yes, I agree her vote was lazy - but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to believe that when bussing (where the only prize is towncred) she didn't even look like she cared much and also outsourced the credit.

Too scummy to be scum isn't a thing.

The bluff comment from you is just meaningless posturing.

Meaningless posturing in response to self-satisfied preening. It's a wash.

The meta comment...it feels a bit dodgy. So you're agreeing that back in some long forgotten day you may have been aware of some meta on her, but that you certainly wash your hands of it in the here and now even if you did? That's weird.

This isn't remotely a fair or accurate summary of what I said. That's weird.

It's pretty annoying when people do that isn't it?

isn't it?

[Cyberbob]

Anyways I'm off to bed, don't forget about this!

Iso singer and look at the ratio of actual scumhunting (random gut tells don't count) to white noise meta chat about how much it sucks to be a replacement.

Also if you don't do this I will be forced to write a sternly worded post about how you are dodging it and questioning your motivation for doing so.

Although I'm not sure why you'd even want to ignore or forget it since it is rather pro-town to be able to conduct - in good faith - this kind of activity.

I'll leave you with these two words: active lurking

[Cyberbob]

Haha yeah maybe............ makes you think.................................

[Cyberbob]

Lol yeah ok two word for you bob

They're not "I'm scum" by any chance?

[Cyberbob]

If Dessew gets lynched today then it'll only come around to "well must be the other scum buddy" because RC has convinced himself that I'm scum regardless,

No word on SG doing the exact same thing to me, but that's to be expected I guess

[Cyberbob]

And people think she looks like scum.

yeah

[Cyberbob]

You'll note that I wasn't complaining about my situation, I was helpfully informing singer of her double standards.

[Cyberbob]

I do think you tried to paint it as scummy.

I do think you're wrong and I do wish you'd quit trying to ascribe motivations to my posts that aren't there.

[Cyberbob]

I mean you're not even trying to hide the fact that these questionable reads are born out of your tunnelling, although I guess if I'm going to be tunnelled I'd rather that you be honest about it than try to hide it behind poor attempts at justification.

[Cyberbob]

You *literally* just said you were trying to suggest she had double standards.
That's calling her scum.

Actually it's calling her a person that has double standards.

You're just trying to make me dismissable now because I'm on to you.

Saving this post for after the game.

[Cyberbob]

You're right that it's last ditch effort but you're wrong about (half of) the scumteam.

[Cyberbob]

@Red - Cyberbob's whole 'double standard' conversation - weird or not weird? I think it looks weird as all get out in a scum sort of way. He's basically calling her scum for a silly reason, I call him on it, and he re-clarifies to that he's...calling her out as having double standards as a person outside of the scope of alignment.

Was I wrong?

[Cyberbob]

Personally I think, yes, you were wrong because no double standard was applied. I said as much at the time.

Oh well then I guess we can add that to the list of Things Squirrel Girl Has Been Wrong About This Game

[Cyberbob]

She was complaining about finding herself in a situation almost exactly equivalent to the one I'm in. Or were you planning on saying something other than "oh well Bob must be the other scum buddy" tomorrow if we lynch Dessew today?

[Cyberbob]

If you think it was anything like a "push" then welp that's another thing you're wrong about

[Cyberbob]

She was complaining about finding herself in a situation almost exactly equivalent to the one I'm in. Or were you planning on saying something other than "oh well Bob must be the other scum buddy" tomorrow if we lynch Dessew today?

this was a rhetorical question by the way as you have already made that statement

[Cyberbob]

Did she claim you couldn't say it?

Implied

Did she call you scummy for saying it and then say the same thing?

No

Did she claim her situation was unique and that you were not in that situation?

Very Much Implied

[Cyberbob]

You're just buzzwording.

"Buzzwording" is a buzzword.

[Cyberbob]

You are not good at being indirectly threatening.

[Cyberbob]

I don't want you to come to my rescue lmao. I want you to deal with it because shit happens sometimes and in your case you happened to replace in for a guy who was discovered to have had made a really obvious scum play.

[Cyberbob]

I did some direct threatening earlier - go back and read that if you need to get some terror chills.

I read it at the time, I felt a tingle run up my spine. Then I realised I needed had been slouching in my chair for too long so I did and I felt better.

[Cyberbob]

I did some direct threatening earlier - go back and read that if you need to get some terror chills.

I read it at the time, I felt a tingle run up my spine. Then I realised I had been slouching in my chair for too long and needed to sit up so I did and I felt better.

[Cyberbob]

I'm all about getting this shit over and done with as well, too bad we have to rely on the activity of RC/Dessew/Goofy to form some kind of conclusion

[Cyberbob]

The real kick in the balls is that replacing any of them at this point would basically fuck the game up beyond repair

[Cyberbob]

So don't, just vote Dessew and we can all take a breather from this little merry-go-round until tomorrow

[Cyberbob]

Well there's my nightly dose of comedy, time for bed

[Cyberbob]

I said a long time ago that this town is fucked. This town is still fucked.

[Cyberbob]

I can't save you from yourselves.

[Cyberbob]

I tried, but I can't keep it up anymore. The stupidity is too hard to overcome. Game's done.

[Cyberbob]

Except that we'll still be debating this tomorrow so why not today?

That depends. Do you want the town to lose today or tomorrow?

[Cyberbob]

Pessimism is not a scumtell, btw. Bob's posts in the past two pages are crap, but they're anti-town crap, not scum crap. I don't think SG has had the chance to frame them as scummy yet, but this is just my preemptive response.

I'm well aware of how crap I've been. I just don't really have anything left to say. I've given up on convincing SG of anything and Dessew/singer aren't worth trying to "convince" of anything for obvious reasons.

At this point I'm pretty well convinced that we're going to see a quick last two votes on me right before the end of the day, but I might as well

Unvote, Vote: singersigner

and hope for a Dessew bus hammer or something

[Cyberbob]

Feel free to say something concerning actual scumhunting whenever you're good and ready Dessew

[Cyberbob]

Nobody cares about town cases on yourself, the way to make people think you're town is by making good scum cases on other people. Hope this helps you with future endeavours.

I already stated in some fashion the case on you a while ago, but basically as far as I'm aware it's process of elimination/scum neighbour stuff/semi-active lurking (in the sense that you're actively lurking while also not actually posting terribly often).

[Cyberbob]

Stalemate? Even if I were to accept the notion that your PoE is equivalent to mine (which I don't), as near as I can tell that still leaves 66.66% of the things I listed off in that post as untouched.

I'm attacking the existence of your 'case' because quite honestly in my view it's fucking irrelevant to anything.

[Cyberbob]

I was right about 1.5 things this game.

The 1 being that town was pretty much always fucked, and the .5 being somewhat suspicious of RC's claim/his buddying up to me for pretty much the entire time.

Oh well.

[Cyberbob]

You got lucky that farside didn't counterclaim. You also got lucky that you were killed before you could fuck up D2 because of your claim.

It's not luck it's skill. Speaking of fuckups, since you want to go there, you derailed the wagon on scum to attempt a mislynch on town. Please don't talk to anyone about fuckups.

The difference being that I readily admit my faults and mistakes while you're an arrogant assholeish prick.

A screaming babe wailing at his superiors.

Didn't you hammer a pr without giving them a chance to claim?

Shut up.

[Cyberbob]

Shut up.

Cyberbob has been permanently banned from non-Mafia forums for repeated abuse of other sitegoers.

Check the date on that one.

[Cyberbob]

It was my first time getting to day 3, pushing late game gets so much more complex, hard to find the motivation in a game that is permanent Mylo till win.

You find it more complicated in late game? Weird, I usually find it easier since the player group is that much smaller, I have more troubles in the first day or 2 when there are so many different people interacting with one another. The tricky part in late game is if you're trying to push a case on someone that most other players already believe to be town (especially if your town has a lot of stubborn people and/or people that are too scared to be seen as wishy-washy)

[Cyberbob]

I also lack confidence, I find myself scum aligned in live so often when I reach late game. I assumed that was why I was still alive towards the end so I didn't push too hard.

If I had to guess I would have said that you were alive because you were reasonably quiet relative to a lot of the other players, especially farside

[Cyberbob]

<3 bob
In the end we we're turned against each other. I really did think you were town until you found it so easy to assume I was scum Ah, well, we were both wrong! ^_^

Yeah. I considered trying to make a push against SG on that last day since if she was town she was being ridiculously stupid, but looking at how everyone else was trending I knew that it wouldn't have gone anywhere. I knew that if the scumteam was anything other than precisely you and Dessew we were pretty boned. I don't think a majority on either RC or SG would have been remotely possible since it would have required 100% of the remaining town (a bus was ever going to happen)

[Cyberbob]

Shut up.

Cyberbob has been permanently banned from non-Mafia forums for repeated abuse of other sitegoers.

Check the date on that one.

I know the date. After you come out of hibernation you pick right up where you left off. I know because I was trying to find the last time you were town and actually contributed to a win and couldn't find any games, which suggest that you've never actually contributed to a town win: quite the opposite. I was trying to figure out where you get off making this comment considering how nasty and incompetent you've been all game...

Town is going to lose and reinoe is going to blame everyone other than him and continue on his merry way making games unpleasant and artificially difficult. But that's life. He wouldn't be the first and he won't be the last.

Unvote

until I get home tonight and have a chance to catch up on the last couple of pages more thoroughly.

I looked through your posting history and your entire history is pretty much you having a forumwide temper tantrum. You're attitude is writing checks it can't cash. Don't talk to anyone about being a detriment to the game when you were on ever town mislynch.

Ok

[Cyberbob]

Yeah that's reasonable, I guess I just don't mind digging deep on a few people as much as I mind digging shallow on a whole bunch of people. ~*~

different people find different things hard

~*~

<3 bob
In the end we we're turned against each other. I really did think you were town until you found it so easy to assume I was scum Ah, well, we were both wrong! ^_^

Yeah. I considered trying to make a push against SG on that last day since if she was town she was being ridiculously stupid, but looking at how everyone else was trending I knew that it wouldn't have gone anywhere. I knew that if the scumteam was anything other than precisely you and Dessew we were pretty boned. I don't think a majority on either RC or SG would have been remotely possible since it would have required 100% of the remaining town (a bus was ever going to happen)

To be fair, even at the end I was willing to go back to RCscum. Unfortunately that hinged on DesScum as well. I didn't think SG would defend me to hard as town in the end...in hindsight I'm kind of angry they took so long to end the day. They didn't need to pin us against each other the way they did.

I think they played it pretty brilliantly to be honest, SG's pressure was extremely stifling and there was never really any counterpressure to relieve some of it. It also didn't help that I was genuinely flat-out with work for a really large chunk of the time, even after work I was often too physically tired to contribute much.

It's really unfortunate that RC managed to find that crucial tidbit about CoolDoG and pops, that one point did almost all the dividing and conquering on its own.

And by that I mean they just let the day waffle on forever when I was the obvious mislynch. I was literally about to vote myself when I remembered that would be a bad idea. >_> It just felt like they could've easily just latched onto either one of us and we wouldn't have been any the wiser and neither would've goofy or Dessew. That's probably the only thing I'm mad about. It was well played as scum but really poor sportsmanship, IMO. <3

They possibly could have ended it earlier but I think SG had gone a bit too hard down the "singer is obvtown" road for a sudden change of mind to not be suspicious. Yes the town was fragmented and disillusioned, but fragmented enough to let a swing of that magnitude go unnoticed? I can't blame them for not wanting to take the chance.

[Cyberbob]

pretend this quote is at the top of that post:

It was my first time getting to day 3, pushing late game gets so much more complex, hard to find the motivation in a game that is permanent Mylo till win.

You find it more complicated in late game? Weird, I usually find it easier since the player group is that much smaller, I have more troubles in the first day or 2 when there are so many different people interacting with one another. The tricky part in late game is if you're trying to push a case on someone that most other players already believe to be town (especially if your town has a lot of stubborn people and/or people that are too scared to be seen as wishy-washy)

It's mostly because of how much digging you have to do to show a real case, not just one day or same day worth.

[Cyberbob]

I really wish I'd followed through with my initial feelings about RC way back when I was voting him for buddying me (and I think something else?) That's my chief regret from this game I suppose, I don't regret pushing IAI/reinoe/Drew at all.

[Cyberbob]

I really wish I'd followed through with my initial feelings about RC way back when I was voting him for buddying me (and I think something else?) That's my chief regret from this game I suppose, I don't regret pushing IAI/reinoe/Drew at all.

So you don't regret mislynching / attempting to mislynch two town folk? We need to play more games together!

Hindsight in mafia isn't terribly useful. I feel like it's similar to poker in that regard.

[Cyberbob]

At least it isn't as town, I guess it is useful for scum. I certainly didn't play this one very well in terms of scumhunting (I'm horribly out of practice, but I knew I would be and the only way to improve is by playing games) but I felt like you guys were being obnoxious to the point of being anti-town even if your reads turned out to be better.

[Cyberbob]

At least it isn't as town, I guess it is useful for scum. I certainly didn't play this one very well in terms of scumhunting (I'm horribly out of practice, but I knew I would be and the only way to improve is by playing games) but I felt like you guys were being obnoxious to the point of being anti-town even if your reads turned out to be better.

You played the player, not the game then. But that's my opinion.

Scum have no reason to play like I played, nor Reinoe for that matter. It attracts too much attention.

Well I managed to avoid calling anyone a "tard" based on where they come from so in that respect I feel I did pretty well, but yes to some extent I was probably playing the player.

Scum have reason to play in all sorts of ways though, as soon as you start to say "nope scum don't play like this" you're essentially telling people how to get a free ride from you as scum in the future.

[Cyberbob]

Mafia 101...maybe you and bob should stop making fun of that now and finally admit I was right...

Were you though? I seem to remember you being so certain I was scum. So very certain.

[Cyberbob]

Your play was THAT bad that yes I thought you were scum.

Likewise! Your case on me was one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen and probably will ever see.

[Cyberbob]

I mean at least I can admit that I sucked pretty hard, you and reinoe don't have the stones to even vaguely cop to your faults. Which is totally fine, it's more or less how I expected you to act, but it is a little depressing.

[Cyberbob]

The thing you guys seem to be missing is that being right is only half the battle - you can be 100% correct in your reads at all times and still lose if you act like an obnoxious prick that nobody likes to be around (let alone listen to and take seriously). Sure you can sit around looking smug after a game and berate the rest of your team for being so stupid and wrong about everything, but this is a team game. Win or lose everyone on a team contributes in some part to the outcome.

[Cyberbob]

You're a delightful human being.

[Cyberbob]

But in answer to your question, you're right - it's me who is banned. I was banned more than a year and a half ago. That's quite a long time, I am a reasonably different person now compared to back then. Maybe you should consider a bit of personal growth as well, speaking from experience it makes life a whole lot more enjoyable when people like being around you.

[Cyberbob]

I thought I did pretty well considering how many other annoying players there were in the group. Not perfect, but pretty well.

In all seriousness, hopefully u and dessew learned that I have some skills at this game and maybe u'll learn to follow my lead next time. Otherwise we'll keep losing together cause I have no trust in either of ur scumhunting skills. Not trying to be mean, just my honest take on it.

Oh I don't think it'll be an issue, I don't plan on playing another game with you for some time.

[Cyberbob]

The thing you guys seem to be missing is that being right is only half the battle - you can be 100% correct in your reads at all times and still lose if you act like an obnoxious prick that nobody likes to be around (let alone listen to and take seriously). Sure you can sit around looking smug after a game and berate the rest of your team for being so stupid and wrong about everything, but this is a team game. Win or lose everyone on a team contributes in some part to the outcome.

I think my only issue is you didn't really come across as trying to play as a team and just stubbornly sat there.
Granted you were correct about cool dog but you could not seem to get around the too scummy to be scum idea.
Yes scum can be scummy. There is the is the person giving reads and have the experience thought process that I just could not get you to come around to.
While iai is jumping at you and bleeding town pops literally got to sit back and do nothing and you were okay with that.
In my view that mentality makes zero sense.

Do I think iai case was bad? Yes. Did I agree with him? No.
Did I like Renoie's play? No. Was he responsible for the loss? No.
Did my actions at the end if day 2 seem justified? No.
Every person is responsible, I think most are mad at you because you held your ground for 2 game days and continued even after Drew flipped town to go after emotion rather then scum.

You'll live.