Mini 1642: The Burning (GAME OVER FLAMES HAVE ENGULFED TOWN)

[acryon]

I hate the RVS so I'm not going to vote.

But how do we progress past it if no one votes?

VOTE: MonkeyMan576

Lots of friendly faces here

[acryon]

@Boon: I promise not to lynch you this game. Well, maybe I don't, but I'll try my best not to.

[acryon]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Acryon

Townies never promises not to lynch a player.

I said I didn't actually promise. I was a big part of lynching him as a townie the last couple games we played together, so I feel bad about it

[acryon]

@Boon: I promise not to lynch you this game. Well, maybe I don't, but I'll try my best not to.

How do we progress in the game? By voting for the scummy players.

Vote: Acryon

You think I'm scum this early? Are you just sheeping Victor?

[acryon]

I think you're the scummiest of players available.

So you would say we are out of RVS?

[acryon]

Votecount 1.01

acryon - 3 (copper223, VictorDeAngelo, MonkeyMan576)

eektor - 1 (eektor)

copper223 - 1 (Boonskiies)
SiX - 1 (Formerfish)
MonkeyMan576 - 1 (acryon)
VictorDeAngelo - 1 (RadiantCowbells)

Not Voting - 5 (Futan, Toon Fighter, Elbirn, Faustbyte, SiX)

With

13

alive, it's

7

to lynch.

Day One's deadline is Tuesday, February 2, @ 12:11 PM PST, which is in (expired on 2015-02-02 12:11:00).

I think Elbirn's eektor vote is switched with eektor here.

[acryon]

I think you're the scummiest of players available.

So you would say we are out of RVS?

Since my vote was not a RV, yes

That's pretty quick. But I can't say I hate it

[acryon]

I don't like Toon Fighter's entrance. It seems lazy and trying to fly under the radar when we already had a bunch of discussion going on.

VOTE: Toon Fighter

Agreed.

Also Fish and Boon are both town. Monkey is scum.

[acryon]

@Acryon
Aren't you bad at reading Boon? I'm wondering if your smiley entrance means it's payback time.

Well my feeling that I'm bad at reading him was based on a game where I was sure he was scum and he flipped town. In the next game with him, we lynched him because I couldn't deal with him being in LyLo if he was scum. This game, he is playing exactly the same as the others, and it feels town. Half of my lost games as town involved mislynches on Boon, so I think it makes sense to be more careful with him this time around.

[acryon]

If that's the case, pot meet kettle

That doesn't really make sense in this context.

Do you ever

not

roll scum?

[acryon]

@Acryon Why do you think Monkey is scum?

Not participating in RVS is a good way to avoid connections later in the game as scum, and choosing to not participate also means we get out of it slower. But apparently all it took was that comment from me for him to OMGUS and put out a vote. Seemed like a drastic change. Posts like 56 seem to further oppose that premature vote he put on me. Then gives his reason as the joke I made. He doesn't participate in RVS, but someone made a joke so they are scum? 74 is a null, but if I'm being biased, it looks like trying to gain some towncred by stating the obvious.

He has plenty of time to start being town, but for now, he's not.

[acryon]

If anything, missing Radiant as IC is a townslip IMO. Not saying it is, but I think it's far more likely that a townie misses something like that than scum.

[acryon]

You guys are barking up the wrong tree.

Whose tree should I be barking up?

[acryon]

Formerfish for attacking people without even understanding what he's attacking about. Either that or blatantly misrepping, because I think I was pretty obvious about why I voted, I mean I even quoted the post I was voting for.

But you're not even voting for him.

[acryon]

Well, I thought it would be considered an OMGUS, but if you insist.

Vote: Formerfish

I get the trepidation there, but certainly having your vote line up with your primary scumread is helpful to your cause.

[acryon]

Do you think Formerfish is scum with Acryon MonkeyMan?

Suddenly less relevent.

What are your thoughts on Formerfish/MonkeyMan?

[acryon]

I invited the attention by my anti-RVS stance, it doesn't make me scum. A lot of people are exaggerating the link between RVS and lynching the bad guys.

I got the impression that it was a site thing that everyone did. Avoiding it and garnering all the attention doesn't seem like a scum move granted.

It's a necessary evil. You have to start talking about

something

to get people to start reacting to things.

I am getting a little concerned about the apparent mob-mentality this town has so far. Unvoting for now, because I think breaking things up is good, especially since it's so early.

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

VOTE: Futan

Didn't like that last post at all.

What didn't you like about it?

[acryon]

Or to put this a more factually accurate way; I said you were buddying the IC by saying you liked her vote and sheeped it. I also don't think you can take a few scum wins and I say it's now statistically unlikely you will do anything as scum that would mean a player could catch. In fact it's probably the most spurious argument I've heard in a while.

I agree that someone being good or not at playing scum doesn't mean that they will never do X behavior, but I do think it makes it less likely they will. At the same time, a good enough scum is also more capable of next-leveling, so I think it's ultimately close to a wash.

I don't agree that this is what copper is doing, and it does seem like kind of an odd thing to really be driving forward. This would be my 3rd game with you Victor and you are scum in all three?

[acryon]

anyone that can read would catch that, so Acryon for instance should be able to tell you it would be unusual for Copper_scum as I had to navigate a 20 page cc battle without slipping about his role PM.

In fact now that I know the mod put it in after the game started I'm not happy with him about it.

So yet more "I'm so great as scum, the fact that Victor suspects me means I must be town cause scum!me can never be caught". Sigh.

What is spurious is your argument that I did it because I did it, when I gave you a logical breakdown of why I think it's bad for me to do so I would not intentionally and you just ignored it.

Not once have provided any logical explanation for anything, you simply keep telling to me your apparently such a great scum player, you wouldn't be caught out doing scummy things.

I also find really questionable your statement about why shouldn't I

townread

the IC, because if you know about the IC that statement is a lie, I would not read anything about her as I would already know, your interpretation there is very forced.

It was response to you originally trying to claim that scum wouldn't be publicly town reading the IC. It's trivial for any player of any alignment to call a conftown town. It's simply another case of you trying to force a towntell out of nothing.

Although I like most of this a good bit.

[acryon]

Or to put this a more factually accurate way; I said you were buddying the IC by saying you liked her vote and sheeped it. I also don't think you can take a few scum wins and I say it's now statistically unlikely you will do anything as scum that would mean a player could catch. In fact it's probably the most spurious argument I've heard in a while.

I agree that someone being good or not at playing scum doesn't mean that they will never do X behavior, but I do think it makes it less likely they will. At the same time, a good enough scum is also more capable of next-leveling, so I think it's ultimately close to a wash.

I don't agree that this is what copper is doing, and it does seem like kind of an odd thing to really be driving forward. This would be my 3rd game with you Victor and you are scum in all three?

I remember Friends and Enemies but can't recall the other, what was it?

My first game actually. Crossroads Mafia. You ended up replacing out, but it was you and T S O at the beginning.

[acryon]

Oh yeah, I forgot that game. The only notable thing was that it was second time I played with TSO, second time we were scum together, and the second time he replaced out on day 1. I'm still waiting for game 3 to see whether the problem was me all along.

Sad

Do you think copper is scummier than monkeyman?

[acryon]

Hm. A question for you Acryon, why do you townread Boon? You give some reasoning in 88, but it feels thin. You say he plays like he did in his other games with you. How can you determine that when he hasn't provided enough content to analyze his playstyle? 11 posts with barely any content each, and prod dodging? Even less posts made at the time you made the above post. That doesn't seem to be enough to be indicative of playstyle nor towniness.

It's not that I'm townreading him as much as I'm not scumreading him. His play this game feels exactly the same as his play in the other two games I've played with him where he was town. He hasn't done anything that seems scummy to me, and anything that he has done that seems at all weird seems very Boon to me.

[acryon]

Hm. A question for you Acryon, why do you townread Boon? You give some reasoning in 88, but it feels thin. You say he plays like he did in his other games with you. How can you determine that when he hasn't provided enough content to analyze his playstyle? 11 posts with barely any content each, and prod dodging? Even less posts made at the time you made the above post. That doesn't seem to be enough to be indicative of playstyle nor towniness.

It's not that I'm townreading him as much as I'm not scumreading him. His play this game feels exactly the same as his play in the other two games I've played with him where he was town. He hasn't done anything that seems scummy to me, and anything that he has done that seems at all weird seems very Boon to me.

I just realized I worded this weird, because I am townreading him, but it isn't extremely strong. More like "for today, I have no interest in pursuing him unless he does something really bad out of nowhere." Because as of now, he seems like his normal town. It's a lean-town, and I also don't think he's a person worth pursuing D1.

[acryon]

I still don't see how he qualifies for a "Town-read", which to my understanding means "I believe this person is town", nor do I see how he qualifies for a "Town-lean", which to my understanding means "This person might possibly be town". What I WILL accept is your statement that he's not a person worth pursuing at this stage, because from my perspective he has done nothing alignment indicative either way so far, and we have better things to do than pursue nullreads. I'd like if we get pressure him into being a more active participant so we can get a read on him however, his lurkiness isn't helpful to anyone.

But what he

has

done and said this game feels enough like it did in the other games with him that he gets that town-lean. I certainly agree that little posting isn't helpful to anyone, but he sort of plays how he wants.

[acryon]

I possess the eye of providence, whether I'm here in person or not is of little importance.
Seriously though, I've read through a few pages. But I'm still at loss with the big picture and would therefore be glad if anyone could provide me the big picture since

most of the posts seems to be unconstructive and just a pain scrolling through

.

Says the guy that's said nothing. Read through it and come up with your own conclusions. It's a whopping 8 pages; I think you can handle it.

[acryon]

@Acryon
I'm also not a fan of your play this game, why are you hedging so much on your opinions?

I don't think I am, outside of being a little easier on Boon today.

[acryon]

He hasn't done anything scummy. I lynched him the past two games I played with him when he was town. I don't see why I

would

be more critical of him.

[acryon]

Like, why would you want me to explain what I see scummy in someone's play and in doing so allow for them to correct it?

I see what you're saying here, but at the same time it may be harder for people to get on board if they don't see what you see.

[acryon]

Acryon assuming missingICclaim is a townslip feels nasty. Fact that it didn't strike you as a nulltell more than anything strikes me as shallow analysis of the situation.

Misrepresent much?

This is what I actually said:

If anything, missing Radiant as IC is a townslip IMO.

Not saying it is

, but I think it's far more likely that a townie misses something like that than scum.

I wonder how much more explicitly I can possible say things?

Half of my lost games as town involved mislynches on Boon, so I think it makes sense to be more careful with him this time around.

If you want to be more careful with Boon, why are you throwing a townread at him without trying to engage him first?

There isn't anything I felt like engaging him on. When there is, rest assured I will do so, but for now there are bigger fish to fry.

[acryon]

I don't think VictorvCopper is TvT. Just not sure which side is which.

[acryon]

I wonder how much more explicitly I can possible say things?

The fact that you leaned town vs null on it feels like surface deep analysis of the situation.

Why so overdefensive? Are you worried if you don't call something said against you a misrep it might look somewhat convincing?

It's not calling it a misrep; it

is

a misrep. It was a null to me, which I thought was clear. I mentioned it being more likely to be town than scum just because of how terrible it is to call it scum. Although I think it's neither. I don't think anyone else stumbled on that explanation.

[acryon]

I don't think VictorvCopper is TvT. Just not sure which side is which.

Tell me the townpros and scumcons for each of them that're making this difficult for you.

I've only ever played with both of them when they were scum, so I don't really get the general town-feels I normally would from a player if I had never played with them before or had played with them as town. Some of Victor's attack on copper has been good, and some has been really reachy. Some of copper's defense has been good, and some has been weak. The primary issue with Victor is that his tunneling on copper is keeping him from bringing much else to the table, so knowing where he is at on others may be helpful.

[acryon]

So rude.

I see what you're saying now, but your eagerness to jump at me for misrepping rather than trying to see if I'm making some kind of misunderstanding feels strongly like it's coming from a position that isn't trying to sort me and is instead trying to posture.

I'll be honest with you. When I posted that I was thinking I was in our other game together with your hydra so the "aggression" sort of carried over from back and forth we may have had there.

[acryon]

AKA I'm kind of dumb, and I feel that the misrepping was probably unintentional.

[acryon]

why?

Because he just replaced in and I find it unlikely that the very first thing scum would do when replacing in is try to misrepresent someone. There are paths of much less resistance than trying to misrepresent me.

[acryon]

@All
In our previous game town_Acryon and a lot of the playerbase thought blindmewithscience, who did not see one of the players was a hydra, might be townslipping, so that's not scum indicative for him.

Check it out acryon. Someone else didn't understand what you meant either.

Well to be fair, he misunderstood my more recent explanation, not the original post we were talking about.

Tell me what you think of copper's misguided defense of you here given your explanation of what you meant.

Eh, my original post was pretty straight-forward, which is why I though it was weird to think it meant something it didn't. What copper was commenting on was a misunderstanding in and of itself, so it's a bit more complicated and I can see how he would think it was something different. I think the point of "Acryon can miss silly things as town" stands either way, although that's obviously self-serving, so I'd rather stay out of that.

I've only ever played with both of them when they were scum, so I don't really get the general town-feels I normally would from a player if I had never played with them before or had played with them as town. Some of Victor's attack on copper has been good, and some has been really reachy. Some of copper's defense has been good, and some has been weak. The primary issue with Victor is that his tunneling on copper is keeping him from bringing much else to the table, so knowing where he is at on others may be helpful.

@Victor

, you hear dat? Give some reads on other peoplies.

@acryon

, what do you expect from Victor's scumgame?

I would say I expect tunneling like we are seeing here, and an abrasive tone, which we also see here. It's also worth noting that one of the games with him, he had to replace out on D1, and in the other game, he was lynched D1, so I wouldn't say I'm extremely familiar with even his scum-play, but those are my impressions. Like I said though, I haven't played with him as town, so I don't know what that would feel like. As of now, I think he is a reasonable lynch candidate if nothing better happens.

[acryon]

This is how I interpreted it after the correction, paraphrasing: I see it as a null tell, I made that statement to counterbalance the idea that it was a scumslip, because if you want to view it as a slip I'd say it's more likely a townslip.

Yes. I didn't think it needed a correction, but maybe it did.

[acryon]

@Cheety

Since neither the IC slip or Boon townread were what you thought, is Acryon still your top scumread?

I've only ever played with both of them when they were scum, so I don't really get the general town-feels I normally would from a player if I had never played with them before or had played with them as town. Some of Victor's attack on copper has been good, and some has been really reachy. Some of copper's defense has been good, and some has been weak. The primary issue with Victor is that his tunneling on copper is keeping him from bringing much else to the table, so knowing where he is at on others may be helpful.

@Victor

, you hear dat? Give some reads on other peoplies.

I don't think I have been that tunnelly on Cooper, it's just most other players having been giving me much to talk about.

My main scumreads at this point are Cooper, Monkey and Toon_Fighter.

Does it bother you at all that those are the three players that have had the most traction in terms of a wagon?

[acryon]

I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree with that statement Acryon, but it was true it wouldn't bother me at all.

Who would you say has had more traction, or currently seems to have more traction?

[acryon]

I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree with that statement Acryon, but it was true it wouldn't bother me at all.

Who would you say has had more traction, or currently seems to have more traction?

I would say you and me have more traction than Toon currently.

I guess I could kind of agree with that, although I don't think anyone had a particularly good opinion of Toon.

[acryon]

@VictorDeAngelo

I certainly do.

If anything, missing Radiant as IC is a townslip IMO. Not saying it is, but I think it's far more likely that a townie misses something like that than scum.

I don't think it's uncommon for a scum to townread someone like that to gain favour. Scums generally tend to avoid vaging war upon too many people at a time by e.g. scumreading early on. The reason to this is because the people scumreaded usually scumreads back. What I'm suggesting here is that it looks slightly like white-knighting someone as a scum to gain favour with him. Not saying it is, just a possibility.

I mean it's definitely not uncommon for scum to WK, but I don't think that's the crux of the issue here. The issue is whether or not copper intentionally WK'd someone that was confirmed town in order to gain the trust of Radiant. It's basically whether or not you believe he really didn't realize Radiant was an IC.

Of course lurking is not alignment-indicative, but I have also been burned by lurkers enough times to be very wary of it. I generally don't advocate policy lynches at all, but it's all about who is most likely to flip scum. Sometimes it may be more likely that the lurker flips scum than any of the active players, and in that case, the lurker dies.

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday as usual for me.

[acryon]

VOTE: Boonskiies

Here's the problem. I understand not wanting to explain your reasoning, but at the same time, you can't expect people to follow your suspicions with no explained reasoning simply because you are confirmed. And if you die tonight, then any ideas you had die with you.

[acryon]

If you don't want to state things explicitly, pointed questioning is even better.

[acryon]

Many people did not respond to my last request.

Please, everyone, lmk how you feel about:

SiX
Victor
Copper
Futan

SiX - Didn't like his lurking, but I actually think his most recent post was really good. Seems to be looking at things like town would, or at the very least in a level-headed manner, which is at least not anti-town.

Victor/Copper - I think one is scum. Again, this one is tough because I have only played with each of them as scum before, so my perspective is skewed a little more than I'd like on both of them. I think Victor is the more likely of the two, because the angles of attack and tunneling he's doing are

very

reminiscent of the scum-play I've seen from him. The only thing that bugs me is that all of his scum-reads have/had some traction of their own, and he doesn't strike me as the type to play that way as scum, although admittedly that is mostly gut. Copper's defensiveness isn't great, but I'm not sure it's worse than Victor's tunneling. I don't think there's anything to glean from IC-gate. It doesn't feel like that would be his game, but I'm also not going to completely rule it out, so it's a null at this point.

Futan - If I had a gun put to my head, I would say he is scum, and his posts seem very active lurking-ish. I don't think he's the biggest fish to fry right now and I think there needs to be more from him before I decided, but I'm leaning scum.

[acryon]

Futan - If I had a gun put to my head, I would say he is scum, and his posts seem very active lurking-ish. I don't think he's the biggest fish to fry right now and I think there needs to be more from him before I decided, but I'm leaning scum.

Doubt the mod would have been looking for a replacement if I was active lurking-ish.

Active lurking has to do with the content of your posts.

[acryon]

If I was active, I wouldn't require replacing, but apparently it was the content of the posts although I'm still not sure what that means.

Active Lurking

[acryon]

@Futon - Do you have a previous town game you could link me?

How much stock do you generally put in meta?

[acryon]

Acryon y u no vote?

Been shoveling snow/super busy with schoolthings.
Will put some more time into this shortly.

I actually thought I had voted.

VOTE: Victor

[acryon]

L-2

for the record.
No dumb shit pls.

Boon

will

quickhammer, so no one should put him to L-1 until we are ready.

[acryon]

Boon

will

quickhammer, so no one should put him to L-1 until we are ready.

Boon's already on the wagon.

Good point. But it's worth noting for future reference nonetheless.

[acryon]

@Acryon

,

The only thing that bugs me is that all of his scum-reads have/had some traction of their own, and he doesn't strike me as the type to play that way as scum, although admittedly that is mostly gut.

So you think Victor would be more likely to go after people on the side rather than the people at the center of attention as scum?

I think that it's weird that all of his scum-reads would be on people who are being scum-read by multiple others. I don't think he would be more likely to push hard on someone on the side, but when giving a readslist, it isn't often that you see someone say their main scum-reads are the three most popular scum-reads, especially when it's a player with a lot of experience.

[acryon]

So the general logic there is that as scum it'd be weird to scumread the three main wagons because it'd look opportunistic?

Yeah, and I feel like it's something that you might see from newb-scum, but not experienced scum. That being said, it's too WIFOMy to be a reason for me to not be voting him at the moment.

[acryon]

Gotcha.
Tell me what you make of the Elbirn/Victor connection Copper's pushing.

I think it has

some

merit. I'm not sure what Victor looks like when he plays town, but he seems to be a hardcore tunneler in general. I think some of the ignorance could be attributed to having unintentional blinders on while tunneling.

[acryon]

What parts of the potential connection do you like or not like?

I would say that, wholly, it has some merit. Point 4 in 311 is really good, but what I mentioned is also a somewhat reasonable explanation.

[acryon]

Fuck you idiot, wait for the guy to flip scum then beg forgiveness, just to reply in kind. If you have a question use a civil tone or don't expectt an answer.

He was obviously being jokey. Don't get defensive and dodge here cop.

[acryon]

He was obviously being jokey. Don't get defensive and dodge here cop.

Fuck you, jk. Lol what?

I mean I thought the tone was very clear.

[acryon]

Fuck me, I didn't realize that I was in prop territory yet.

I don't like coppers most recent posts, I feel like he is over reacting to things and has lost sight of any kind of objectivity. I agree with VDA that copper seems to be reaching by saying that VDA is setting Acryon up for a later lynch, that connection is weak as hell. I think I have seen enough to convince me that VDA v. Copper is TvS in that order.

Vote: Copper

Is that vote count correct? I could have sworn on my catch up I saw someone mention VDA was at l-2.

I put him to L-2, but then Cheetory switched to Monkeyman.

Also I agree with these comments on copper's recent posts.

[acryon]

I don't even know what to tell you guys.

1. Discredit again.

2. Lynching = pushing, misrep nr 16500.

I mean but in the case you're trying to build, aren't pushing and lynching at least

close

to synonymous?

[acryon]

I mean but in the case you're trying to build, aren't pushing and lynching at least close to synonymous?

No, why do you say so?

As scum he may be pushing to see if they slip and become and easy mislynch, pushing for towncred (look I'm scumhunting), pushing to line up a lynch tomorrow, other reason I can't think about now.

I guess I was more referring to at least me, where you said he was lining me up for a mislynch.

[acryon]

I guess you should specify it then. Even in your case it doesn't have to be, plus Victor was likely not focusing solely on your name yes?

Maybe not, but you did lump my name in with the others, despite the cases being different.

[acryon]

The point of that list was to show why I made an Acryon Victor connection and my interpretion of it, I explicitly said your name stuck out amongst the others so why are you saying I "lumped" you together?

Because the point was you thought he was trying to get all of those people (including me) lynched in the future.

[acryon]

Nope

- Before I posted my connection I was looking at the players Victor was pushing on and I noticed Acryon, Futan, Monkey and SIX being targets. I think the others are mainly lynchbait, but Acryon sticks out.

If "lynchbait" doesn't equate to people he was setting up to lynch in the future, then what were you even trying to say in that context?

[acryon]

I already told you that pushing /= lynching, pushing on lynchbait that is also town is easy towncred, they make you want to lynch them, town likes to see you pressure lynchbait because hey, they are scummy hence that guy is likely scumhunting, this doesn't mean scum_Victor wants to lynch them, he may if it is useful for him, he may also not, that has been your assumption from the start that I do not share.

If lynchbait isn't lynchbait for scum, then who is it lynchbait for? The only thing that makes them lynchbait is that it's easy for scum to push the town in their direction. And I think that would actually be a better case than what you're making, because a lot of these pushes are very soft, and I think you're really stretching.

Since I don't consider you lynchbait, why were you in that group is the question I asked myself, and my first impulse was to say, since Victor started on you out of RVS and you are voting him, you are his escape plan if my lynch goes through. Gotta say based on bot your reactions I think I may have stumbled into something else.

Why in the world would I be both voting him

and

defending him? Sounds like the actual worst bus ever.

Pretty sure Victor and copper are both scum here. Let's take out Victor and move on to the next one guys.

[acryon]

Pretty sure Victor and copper are both scum here. Let's take out Victor and move on to the next one guys.

This is just all kinds of bad.

Is it? In Crossroads Mafia, you and TSO double-bussed as scum. Arguing in a manner that feels not dissimilar from this game. Both of you are making arguments and posts that I think are weaker than you're capable of. There's also the fact that I've had my vote on you/calling you scum for a little bit, but it's not until I also mention that you and copper may be scum together than I strike a chord.

[acryon]

If lynchbait isn't lynchbait for scum, then who is it lynchbait for? The only thing that makes them lynchbait is that it's easy for scum to push the town in their direction. And I think that would actually be a better case than what you're making, because a lot of these pushes are very soft, and I think you're really stretching.

No, what makes them lynchbait is most players want to lynch them, regardless of what scum does and what alignment you are, scum see it as an easy mislynch and possibly a trap to avoid (depending on what kind of scum they are), town thinks they may be scum because they are acting scummy.

I am not pushing anything, I said Victor is scum for completely different reasons, since this connection also came up while I was re-reading and it made sense in the context of my reads, I mentioned it (5 words I believe), you are questioning me on this like it's the most important thing that happened today so I'm talking about it, to accuse me of focusing on this is plain false.

Pretty sure Victor and copper are both scum here. Let's take out Victor and move on to the next one guys.

I have gone on record in scum QT's saying I do not bus D1, I think it's extremely dumb and I would never do it.

You are taking a null stance on most of what matters to me in the game when asked, something you never did in our last game, you are voting Victor but questioning me (and I don't understand where you are going with your questions, some of them don't even make sense), so there is something weird going on which I do not understand.

I'm questioning you because I'm already pretty sure Victor is scum. So now I'm trying to figure out if you're his buddy, which I think you are. And you talking about how you don't bus D1 as scum doesn't mean anything to me, and you should know that.

[acryon]

You should read properly, I said I have told my scumbuddies in other games I do not bus, let alone 1v1, and I had no reason to lie to them there, nor have I ever bussed D1 in any of my scum games on the forum.

I did read, but that certainly doesn't mean that you never would. But I should probably take you at your word that you

never

will because...reasons?

Maybe you hadn't ever done it in the past and that was truthful then, but how is that assurance that you aren't doing it now? You know better than that copper.

[acryon]

I still feel like Boon is probably town. Monkey does seem like lynchbait. That being said, I still think Monkey needs to bring some more forward. Where are you actually at on people?

Elb, you are confident as fuck man, that is a totally legit reason to town read someone.

I don't know that he was speaking strictly about confidence.

[acryon]

That being said, I still think Monkey needs to bring some more forward. Where are you actually at on people?

Elb, you are confident as fuck man, that is a totally legit reason to town read someone.

I don't know that he was speaking strictly about confidence.

Wow way to take what I said and say it again. Jerk.

Spoiler: Secret Message for Acryon

<3

Tell me what you think of FF.

Sorry, sometimes I am bad at reading

<3

FF is acting and playing exactly like he was the last game I played with him where he was town. He's pushing people to play, he's questioning others, he's being pretty abrasive. What more could I ask for?

[acryon]

Is his tone usually a little.. awkward?

I mean I don't know that awkward is a word I would use to describe his tone, but I think it's pretty spot on with his tone in that other game. It's Ninja Mini Mafia in my wiki if you're interested.

[acryon]

Something wonky is happening with this site on my phone and is making quoting almost impossible. Cheet and Acr you guys do know that confidence was Monkeys stated reason for town reading Elb right? Like he said that. My post was sarcasm, which was correctly detected by someone else and confirmed by me already in thread. I do love it when people get indignant over things that have already been explained though, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

That was in 211 though. It's a little silly to assume that his read didn't get more developed than that over 200 posts later. Although I'd need to hear from Monkey to know for sure.

[acryon]

FF is acting and playing exactly like he was the last game I played with him where he was town. He's pushing people to play, he's questioning others, he's being pretty abrasive. What more could I ask for?

Are you not at all paranoid about him though? Like. I get being like "he's playing similarly so woo yay that's cool" but this is especially a weak attempt at trying to read him if you haven't seen his scum game.

Well I'm paranoid about everyone, but he isn't pinging me and I don't see him pushing a scum agenda at least today. Once we have a flip, I'll probably be able to figure out better, but in the mean-time I think he's town. But everything is one day at a time.

[acryon]

I just don't see VDA v Cop as scum theater, if it were I feel it would be more well played out. This feels sloppy and mostly unfounded.

The sloppiness and unfounded nature of it just make it look worse to me. They are both better players than this 1v1 is letting on, which is why I don't think it's genuine.

[acryon]

@Cheety

- What exactly is FF meant to do here? My wagon is likely a combination of scum/badTown and there isn't even a real case against me that myself or anyone else can respond to.

I think it's pretty clear that he should be digging into those on the wagon and getting them to question their own reasons for being on it.

[acryon]

Acr didn't list a reason during his vote only before where he said VDA looks likes he did when he wassscum this one other time. Meta from one game is not meta.

I'm not voting for him because of meta. Experience with him just makes me feel better about it.

[acryon]

Acryon is pinging me as scum. His responses to me haven't been horrendous, but this doesn't feel like his towngame.

Oh come oooon Cheety. Let's be friends.

P-Edit: Okay. I was kind of exaggerating my expectations for your townplay to try and get a peek at your current thought process. You strike me as a smart guy and for you to be sitting at null in my reads list scares me :c
I have an actually serious no reaction-building question for you though, do you think scum is more likely to focus on one person or be willing to drop focus and pick it up really easily?

I think they are equally likely to do either one. Depends on the situation and the player. Some players can't handle the heat of hard driving on one player, some can.

PP-Edit: :c stop ninja-ing me you fucks.
Acryon, can you reiterate the reasons you're voting for Victor really quick? I don't care if you want to paraphrase or quote or whatever. I think Victor already asked but I also want to see them so you should make it a priority c:

I was looking through my ISO where I thought I was more explicit with my reasons for voting Victor, but it looks like a lot of it was in my head, and I really only mentioned my general feelings little by little. It basically boils down to his play and push on copper being generally scummy. He is hard-pushing, but then latching on to little things that aren't scummy and trying to make them look scummy. His play and push seem desperate and reachy, like he doesn't really have the gas for it, but he knows he has to keep pushing because he's in too deep. Copper is doing something very similar with Victor only a bit different.

[acryon]

Whoops. Answered the P-edit anyway.

[acryon]

So the only difference between Copper and Victor is just a slight feeling between the two of them then? How hard are you leaning on this idea that they're both scum?

That's not the only difference. I just was talking about Victor, so I wasn't going into copper's specifics.

I would say I am quite confident that they are both scum, and close to 100% certain at least one is scum. We should lynch Victor and if we have a vig, I would tell them to get copper tonight.

[acryon]

I wouldn't mind a vig shot on Acryon after that comment.

[acryon]

In fact Acryon is a very good check in general because his play has been very murky today, whether I flip or Victor flips should help you eith a lot of players and he is not one of them.

You can check me, but don't vig me.

[acryon]

Yeah, eektor isn't actually voting Victor. I just noticed that too. Hopefully mod gets us an updated vc.

[acryon]

I don't like when people say they never do something as scum. I never bus. I never vote my buddies in rvs, I never make pushes I wouldn't make as town. There is nothing you shouldn't do as scum to try and win. Good scum changes their approach and activities all the time to avoid being easily detected.

Quoting this because it's on-point.

Why ask him why he thinks you're voting for him ?

Seems flimsy bait.

How is that flimsy bait? Victor quoted the correction post from eektor, indicating he acknowledged it on some level, but then later mentioned eektor as voting for him. What is off at all about asking why he thinks he is voting for him?

[acryon]

It's pretty likely that it's either me or Copper toDay. You should vote Copper.

I don't think my uninformed vote is going to sway much popular opinion.

Town know there is plenty of time left to discuss however.

Long shot I know.

Why is your vote uninformed?

[acryon]

Why is your vote uninformed?

Would have thought you could spot a noob a mile away.

What FF said. Just because you're new doesn't mean you have a voice or a perspective that the town is missing and might need.

[acryon]

Yeesh.

Riveting commentary.

Am I the only one who reads the Victor/Copper argument as Copper making fallacious arguments and Victor then disproving them, and yet somehow Victor is regarded as more scum than Copper? Really if Victor flips scum I'll eat my hat.

I think they have been equally scummy in the exchange, but my gut is telling me Victor is more likely to flip scum (although I think they both will).

[acryon]

I agree on Toon though. I find notable that both Acryon and Toon are basically saying that me and Copper are either town on town or scum or scum, but both want to flip me first. These need to be the first people looked at after a Copper scumflip.

I never said this. At least one of you is scum, but probably both.

[acryon]

I never said this. At least one of you is scum, but probably both.

I stand corrected. No point looking at Acryon unless both me and Copper at town.

However, I still find the notion that me and Copper could be seen as scum together as absurd. What exactly would we have had to gained as scum from our play here? We would have essentially given town a free Day 1 scumflip.

Same reason any scum would ever double-bus D1. One of you dies and the other gets to coast. If you're lucky (like in Crossroads Mafia), people will write off the banter as TvT, but it didn't work out as well this time I don't think. I get that's it's sort of an imaginative scenario, but sometimes that's what it takes to get the scum!

[acryon]

Also, he's not in any games besides this one but that V/LA seems extremely tactical. Park a vote on someone who seems scummy enough to sit on then V/LA the final days away so you don't have to be responsible for a lynch.

Lol.
RC.
You seem like a nice person.
But fuck off.
I'm in two other games right now. I have a huge fucking mountain of schoolwork. I have personal shit in my life. I will be trying to post in this game when I have time to, but when you say shit like this it makes me not want to.

For the record I don't think anyone is possibly on board with that idea of hers.

[acryon]

For the record, while I still kind of maybe think you may probably possibly be scum this game, I like you acryon.
Wanna vote the IC with me?

Haha I kind of wish I could. And I like you too Cheet

[acryon]

@mod: does scum have daytalk or nighttalk only in this game ?

I doubt mod will answer this since it's a normal game.

[acryon]

You find it odd that people don't want to exaggerate cases on day 1?*gasp*

I find it more odd that you'd post 30 times in another game during a day and here nothing.

There's more happening in other games. This game is a bore so far.

Then replace out. Being inactive like you are is only helpful to scum.

[acryon]

V/LA until Monday as usual for me.

[acryon]

Ugh I actually agree with a lot of Victor's last post, but I still think he is scum and needs to hang tonight. I also agree that Elbirn has been looking quite bad here.

[acryon]

Sorry for the lack of activity. It's going to be a few days before I'm able to pop in as much as I can (although it won't be nearly as much as I like).st like normal, but I'll still try to jump in).

[acryon]

Well that was a total disaster. I just want to apologize for clearly having such terrible reads on both of them. In my defense, I've only played with Victor and copper as scum, although that's a crappy defense.

My initial instincts are leaning toward Elbirn and ToonFighter. Going to look into some VCA, because with the way the wagons worked yesterday, it seems like it may be really valuable.

[acryon]

After a careful VCA, and a bit of intuition, I'd posit the scum team is between [Monkey-Cheetory-(Boon/acryon/eektor)]

And if we lynch Monkey everything will become clearer

Care to share some of your "careful VCA"?

[acryon]

I am absolutely, absolutely not in favour of Monkey.

I can't see the flash wagon from copper switching over to Monkey like it did unless they were both != mafia.

Toon I could compromise on, but it's Elbirn I really want. The casual flippancy towards the lynch vis a vis bouncing back and forth between all 3 is glaring at me.

I think acryon is looking scummy for the whole Victor vs copper is scum vs scum. I don't think he was expecting a copper flip.

I think Toon is scummy for agreeing with acryon on the whole copper vs victor is scum vs scum. His voting could go either way from Victor to Monkey, makes me think Monkey is probably town.

Elbirn's eagerness to lynch anyone at the end makes me think he is a good fit for a scum buddy with the other two.

Scum team: acryon, toon, and elbirn.

Should have kept my vote on him yesterday, so ...

VOTE: Toon Fighter


Also, Cheetory is looking pretty town to me

I never said I wa ssure they were scumv scum. In fact, what I did say, is that their alignment was likely the same (2 town or 2 scum). In fact, I think I was the one who first suggested they shared an alignment (page 23, post 562-567), and I changed my opinion on Vic by the end of the day. I also said that Cheeto could the scum there, but in that I was not the first.

@RC: I can agree on that lynch. In fact, my scum team depends on Monkey being scum. If he is town, then Elbirn is the one we should be after

UNVOTE: MonkeyMan VOTE: Elbirn

Wow, this sequencing of posts is absurd.

RC: "No on Monkey. Yes on either Toon or Elbirn"
Toon: "I hear you RC, Elbirn sounds great!"

So you think Monkey is scum so much that you say your entire scumteam depends on him being scum, then switch to a person who is scum dependent on Monkey being town?

VOTE: Toon Fighrer

[acryon]

IF monkey is scum, I believe his team is in those players [Monkey-Cheetory-(Boon/acryon/eektor)]. I believed he could be scum based on his play and because we had 3 leading wagons yesterday (Vic, copp and Monkey) and I reasoned one of them should be scum. Going from there and looking at who voted whom, and that there SHOULD be scum on Vic's wagon, then I posited the scumteam.

If he is not scum (and, as RC said, the way the wagon moved from copp (town) to him could indicate that) then Elbirn is the best way to go. And, as there seemed to be more support for an Elbirn lynch today, I thought my vote could be better there.

I still believe Monkey can be scum, but RC made a fair point there.

We are at the very beginning of the day, so what do you know about support for a lynch? We have 13 days, so you have plenty of time to convince the town why a certain person is scum rather than settling for something that you are so uncertain of.

[acryon]

I'm not sure what with Toon's emphasis on "if X is scum, Y is town" relational tells. To me it seems really weak reasoning and like he's grasping at straws.

This is true.

[acryon]

@Fish: I feel good about Toon-scum right now, but can you give me your current case for Monkey-scum (outside of your last post)?

[acryon]

in particular, I agree acryon's take on VDA v. copper was bad; it was basically textbook scum "at least one of xxx and yyy are scum but I don't know which"

I didn't say this. I voted for Victor because I was quite certain he was scum. It was "I think Victor is scum and I think copper may also be scum." Very different from what you tried to put on me above.

How does this change your reads knowing you were incorrect on this?

I feel like anyone not voting Toon right now needs to have a really good reason for doing so.

[acryon]

Yeah? What constitutes a good reason? What if our reasons aren't deemed to be good enough for you? What gives you the right to ask that of anyone? That seems like an oddly out of place statement from the limited experience I have of playing with you. Are you trying to say that anyone not on the second biggest wagon today is scum?

These are some obviously ridiculous questions, especially the last one. Toon just seems like very clear scum here. Maybe that's not apparent to you, but clearly when I post I'm going to do so with confidence in my convictions. These questions sucked fish.

I think he's just trying to say voting someone at L1 is different than voting someone at L5.

Appreciate the help, but this is not what I'm saying. Monkey is right about the bad questions though fish. There are good questions you could have asked me there, but the ones you asked were terrible.

I'm pretty sure this:

I don't think VictorvCopper is TvT. Just not sure which side is which.

is saying basically what I said. anyway, the point here is mainly that your stance looked opportunistic; it looked like a stance where scum could easily be on whichever of the {VDA, copper} wagons was more likely to go through.

That was like one of the very first things I said on the topic. I very clearly drew lines after that. I'll give you a pass if you were just reading through and hadn't gotten there yet.

"I feel like anyone not voting Toon right now needs to have a really good reason for doing so."

This could be taken 2 ways.

1. You need to have a good reason to be off the wagon.

Bingo.

2. You need to have a good reason to vote that wagon right now..

I feel like anyone not voting Toon right now needs to have a really good reason for doing so.

I cannot think of any good reason for why anyone would say this. This smells like scum. Pressuring people into a vote without any reasoning given and implying that anyone not on the wagon is subject to suspicion? No, no this won't do.

Terrible. I didn't say

anything

about suspicion. Not sure what world you and fish come from, but where I come from, having a crappy reason for doing something doesn't make you scum. The point of my comment was to hear why those not voting toon are abstaining, at which point I could tell them why they are wrong.

@pie From the games I've read, I've seen way more scum act that way when cornered and not so much town.

I feel like anyone not voting Toon right now needs to have a really good reason for doing so.

Also, I think this is a not so subtle defense of Elbirn.

I don't like elbirn either, but Toon needs to burn.

[acryon]

I mean is it particularly surprising that I would be playing a little safer today than yesterday? Considering I said "X and Y are scum" and neither was scum.

@Fish: I feel good about Toon-scum right now, but can you give me your current case for Monkey-scum (outside of your last post)?

Why haven't you asked for a case on Elbirn? You said you were going to look at VCA and other stuff. Why haven't you made any kind of commentary on why Elbirn is or isn't scum? I know you said you didn't like him in your last post, but please elaborate on exact reasons.

I mean this is pretty simply just that Toon seems far more likely. FWIW, I think Elbirn is the next most likely to be scum, but I'd rather not do the same thing I did yesterday and target two people at once. Makes more sense to focus in on one.

[acryon]

Fuck pizza.

i) Remembered that RC said the opposite of this:

You know a lot of your posts are worded as though you know already that Vic will flip town, and I think it's interesting.

I still feel like him coming at me when RC was also giving me shit feels sheepy but I'm not sure if that's scummy or not Zzzz.

ii)

I think Elbirn is the next most likely to be scum, but I'd rather not do the same thing I did yesterday and target two people at once. Makes more sense to focus in on one.

So you have no thoughts on why Elbirn is scum beyond a feeling right now and you don't want to do any analysis because it might cause sloppy play?
Because I can see it as equally plausible that right now you're not talking about anyone but Toon because you're trying to protect your scummates from association with you.

I mean there's not really a way for me to convince you the latter isn't the case outside of I suppose talking about other people, but I'm still working through my reads on others, so you'll have to wait for that.

[acryon]

actually I'm looking through acryon's ISO

D1 happens and he pushes both VDA and copper. D2 happens and he pushes TF claiming he doesn't want to push 2 people at once, but he still has a pretty apparent soft-push going on Elbirn ("I still don't like Elbirn, but Toon needs to hang").

seems legit

Considering I explained right off the bat that I had no interest in repeating my mistakes yesterday, I figured that was clear. This post from you seems to indicate you would prefer me pushing two people day one who both ended up flipping town and then moving on and pushing another set of two people? Which is the very thing you are criticizing me for?

My initial instincts are leaning toward Elbirn and ToonFighter. Going to look into some VCA, because with the way the wagons worked yesterday, it seems like it may be really valuable.

have you made any progress on this, btw? I'm also wondering if you think FF/Elbirn asking you supposedly terrible questions is an alignment tell or more based on playstyle.

I did some VCA, but the big problem is that there were two major wagons both on town. This means scum could have easily gone on either wagon without worry because it was clear at least one of the two was going through. The way the town split on them made things even worse for us as there is little to glean from the movement on each.

I mean both town and scum misunderstand things, so I'm reluctant to call it an alignment tell, especially since I think Fish is town.

[acryon]

Some reads:

Scum: acryon - this has already been asked, but your post

I feel like anyone not voting Toon right now needs to have a really good reason for doing so.

why the subtle accusation at whoever wasn't voting me? And why would you need to

I mean is it particularly surprising that I would be playing a little safer today than yesterday? Considering I said "X and Y are scum" and neither was scum.

coming from a town mentality? It just seeems that thoughts like this would most likely come from scum

Do you have any original thoughts on me?

[acryon]

when reading the last few days, those were the thoughts I had. I don't care if they are new or not. What are your responses?

Re: the question of subtle accusations:

Terrible. I didn't say

anything

about suspicion. Not sure what world you and fish come from, but where I come from, having a crappy reason for doing something doesn't make you scum. The point of my comment was to hear why those not voting toon are abstaining, at which point I could tell them why they are wrong.

Re: My play today:

actually I'm looking through acryon's ISO

D1 happens and he pushes both VDA and copper. D2 happens and he pushes TF claiming he doesn't want to push 2 people at once, but he still has a pretty apparent soft-push going on Elbirn ("I still don't like Elbirn, but Toon needs to hang").

seems legit

Considering I explained right off the bat that I had no interest in repeating my mistakes yesterday, I figured that was clear. This post from you seems to indicate you would prefer me pushing two people day one who both ended up flipping town and then moving on and pushing another set of two people? Which is the very thing you are criticizing me for?

[acryon]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I said Toon shouldn't be lynched. In fact, I specifically said that Toon Fighter is my #2 choice for a lynch. I believe you're slipping up, bro. I think you scum slipped with that. Making stuff up, rattling around, not checking facts before a case, and trying to pull attention from yourself onto someone else.

Annd then this is also crap. Your initial statement, again, was "I'm thinking Monkey/Acryon", with a vote on Monkey in the same post, and then nothing said about Toon. In fact the previous day you even retracted your statement that Toon should be lynched

Actually, I don't want Toon lynched toDay. She may be scum, but I believe a Victor/Monkey lynch will be more beneficial for analyzing. Toon's kind of her own little entity, which won't give us much.

And it isn't until 901 that you mention wanting to lynch Toon second. So basically you're flipflopping wherever you see convenient.

I'm finding myself less and less comfortable with lynching Toon.
UNVOTE:

This seems like it should be followed by a Boon vote, no?

[acryon]

I said IF. We are in the realm of possibilities. If I were to flip town, who would you think is scum? If I were scum, who would you think was my partner?

Come on guys. Let's lynch this.

[acryon]

Considering I explained right off the bat that I had no interest in repeating my mistakes yesterday, I figured that was clear. This post from you seems to indicate you would prefer me pushing two people day one who both ended up flipping town and then moving on and pushing another set of two people? Which is the very thing you are criticizing me for?

what I'm saying is, your stances this game have been the most opportunistic out of everyone in the game. you were open for both of the lynch targets D1, and I don't like the way you're soft-pushing the Elbirn wagon while claiming you don't want to push 2 people again today; pushing a wagon from the sideline while not getting too involved in it is a textbook scum play

I mean I can't really argue with you that I was open for both of the lynch targets D1, because I was.

why _do_ you have Elbirn as scum, anyway? I looked through your ISO and couldn't find it.

I am playing so bad this game. I had weird feelings about Elbirn following the flip, and didn't particularly like some of the way he handled questions and responses today, but now I think he's town. Most of my scum-read on him was related to that and gut, so I went back through his ISO to find what about it was actually pinging me, and I found some things, especially from D1 that make no sense as Elbirn-scum given Copper/Victor/Futan-town. The way he questions aspects of the wagons D1 seem very town. Even his reason for the compromise lynch of Victor in 728 makes a lot of sense.

Come on guys. Let's lynch this.

mm, I think TF is scum, but this is not the reason he's scum. he's either asking this as town or asked this as scum bc he thought he would ask it as town. what do you think is scummy about this?[/quote]

This is sort of my fault. I was talking about this post:

Elbirn, if I flip scum, who would you look into next? Same thing for town.

But I quoted his follow-up because it wasn't a good answer for it. This question from Toon just makes zero sense as town. If Toon is town, then he is telling Elbirn to engage in a thought process that is absolutely a complete waste of time and energy. Why would you ask someone to give you associative tells based on an alignment-red that you

know

is incorrect? From a scum-perspective, this kind of question allows Toon/other scum to have extra information on where Toon's reads are at. There is literally zero town reason to ask this question.

Overall, I am really sorry that I have played this game so badly. I think my D1 reads being so wrong just caused me to lose interest, but I'm committed to not letting that happen again.

[acryon]

I'm sorry if I'm misreading this AtE as scum because I'll legit feel kind of bummed for being a jerk and being like "get fukd acryon" all game, but I have a hard time seeing your defeatism here as being anything other than you trying to force a toon lynch to save yourself or to distance yourself from toon.

My reads are malleable.
Convince me that you aren't a scumshit. c:

What do you think of Boon?

I mean I've played like crap as town this game, so all I can really do is adjust going forward, right?

Acryon you should give more reads.
Why aren't you giving more reads?

I think this is just my lack of time invested in this game meaning most of my reads are a lot weaker than they should be, which means I don't want to share them.

Getting my passion back and going over the game. Give me a minute and I'll give you my current feelings on everyone.

[acryon]

That's the idea. Way you were phrasing yourself sounded like you were saying you were giving up and would try harder next game. Which would be dumb if you're town.

Oh, nope not at all. Trying harder starting now.

[acryon]

I’ve already addressed my thoughts on Toon and Elbirn, so they will just get quick parts.

Toon

– Scum

Elbirn

– Lean-town

Cheetory

– Lean-town
His stance on the Victor/copper situation was town. Looking over his ISO, he has asked me a looooot of questions this game, much more-so than anyone else I think. Unsure if this is an attempt at buddying or suspicion, but especially recent posts make me feel it is the latter. 987 is a little weird in that he references eektor starting to ping him, but then goes into a theory about an elbirn/me scumteam and ultimately votes me.
@Cheet: Where are you at on your Monkey read at the moment? You said you didn’t think him and elbirn were scum-mates, but with your recent turn on elbirn, how does this adjust your read of Monkey?

Boon

– Lean-scum
Man I just cannot read Boon for the life of me. I’m certainly torn from my past experiences with him and have never played with scum-boon, so I’m not sure what that would look like. Here is what worries me. 803 he is scum-reading both me and Monkey and 805 he’s scumreading Toon. And now Elbirn is scum. And in 910 he basically said he doesn’t think Cheet is town. So correct me if I’m wrong Boon, but of 9 other players, you are scumreading fully 4 of them with another being a null or possibly worse? I don’t like that.

SiX/Pieguyn

– Lean-town
The thought process on Victor/Copper in 315 seems to come from a town mindset. Doesn’t make much sense to try and logically explain why we should treat two (now confirmed townies) as town. 871 from Pieguyn re: MonkeyMan is definitely coming from either town or scum-Monkey’s scumbuddy. The thought process for suspecting me makes sense and reads genuine. This will all make more sense with more flips.

Formerfish

– Null/Lean-scum
It’s tough to evaluate FF. So much of his play is so interactive with others that associative reads are huge here. His recent absence makes reading his current actions difficult.
@FF: Can we get an updated reads list?

MonkeyMan

- Town
All in all, Monkey seems like a player that said some silly things, and hasn’t been able to live it down. He has had strong wagons a couple times, and thankfully they have died down because I don’t think we’ve got scum here. I think people (myself included) sometimes have a hard time with players that always just post one-liners, but I think the stuff he is saying reads really genuine, even if it’s wrong. It’s unlikely to me that scum-Monkey would be saying so many things that are silly/don’t make sense. I have to imagine he would be a little more careful about his play, so it does read innocent to me right now.

eektor

– Town
Given Victor and copper-town, 472 from eektor looks town. If you know someone is going to flip town, why would you get the reads of other people given them flipping town? That is the direction of thinking

town

wants to talk about, and the opposite of what scum wants to talk about. The only thing I’d like to know about is the Cheet read.
@eektor: You said earlier that given copper-town or Victor-town, chance of Cheety-scum goes up. What made you change your mind in light of

both

Victor and copper flipping town.

[acryon]

Acryon, I have no clue what I'm doing. My reads are horrible early game. Remember how hard I was town reading Thor day 1 Ninja mafia then just decided to hell with it? Also, my Zebulin tunnel...I can link my 2 scum games if you guys want to see them? Keep in mind, Acryon. I don't think you are scum unless Monkey is scum. And if Monkey is scum, I don't think Toon Fighter is.

Yeah, but you having horrible early game reads doesn't make you town. It doesn't make you scum either, but I do think having a list of 4-5 people you would be willing to lynch is a bit much.

Can I get an updated reads list from you, including who you would be willing to lynch?

[acryon]

I'm really feeling Acryon/Eektor as scum right now.

@Cheet: Where are you at on your Monkey read at the moment? You said you didn’t think him and elbirn were scum-mates, but with your recent turn on elbirn, how does this adjust your read of Monkey?

I've been slightly leaning town on Monkey for a little while now. Do you think my read on Monkey should adjust with my turn on Elbirn?

Well, yes. In the context of that statement regarding elbirn/Monkey, elbirn was being regarded as possible scum. Given that, you wouldn't think Monkey is scum. Now that you think Elbirn is probably town, "elbirn and monkey aren't scum-team together" isn't a reason to townread Monkey.

[acryon]

Acryon, I have no clue what I'm doing. My reads are horrible early game. Remember how hard I was town reading Thor day 1 Ninja mafia then just decided to hell with it? Also, my Zebulin tunnel...I can link my 2 scum games if you guys want to see them? Keep in mind, Acryon. I don't think you are scum unless Monkey is scum. And if Monkey is scum, I don't think Toon Fighter is.

Yeah, but you having horrible early game reads doesn't make you town. It doesn't make you scum either, but I do think having a list of 4-5 people you would be willing to lynch is a bit much.

Can I get an updated reads list from you, including who you would be willing to lynch?

I want Monkey or Toon really. Those will help me settle my reads the most. Elbirn is mainly there because he annoyed me, and that's kind of dying down now, but eh. If it's down to deadline I'd accept a lynch on you, probably, but like I said before, I wouldn't quick hammer you.

Where are you at on Cheetory? If you wouldn't be willing to hammer me, but you would the others, why would you be okay with a lynch on me? Down 3 players I'm not sure we can settle for an informational lynch at this point.

[acryon]

OH!!! 910 Acryon, I am town reading Cheetory, I was just stating I never said I was because someone auto assumed I town read him. I was being annoying. I am town reading Cheetory. Haha.

Ah okay that makes a little more sense.

[acryon]

I'd wait until deadline for you, Acryon, but if you've noticed, I haven't really pushed you at all this game.

I mean so do you think I'm scum or no? I think the issue is you are sort of pushing people but also sort of riding the fence.

[acryon]

Well, yes. In the context of that statement regarding elbirn/Monkey, elbirn was being regarded as possible scum. Given that, you wouldn't think Monkey is scum. Now that you think Elbirn is probably town, "elbirn and monkey aren't scum-team together" isn't a reason to townread Monkey.

Wasn't really townreading Monkey for that reason though.

Acryon, why would you say you've felt uninvested this game?
Walk me through the demotivation here.

I pushed hard on two people D1. They both flipped town. With work recently meant time-wise I had little to invest in the game early D2, and combined with the demoralizing feeling from my D1, it became not as fun to play.

[acryon]

I'd wait until deadline for you, Acryon, but if you've noticed, I haven't really pushed you at all this game.

I mean so do you think I'm scum or no? I think the issue is you are sort of pushing people but also sort of riding the fence.

It all depends on one if Toon is scum, really. If toon fighter flips town, by vote count analysis and reactions from Day 1, yes, I would think you are scum. Although, I was feeling off about you because your Day 1 play was odd. toDay I've felt the Acryon I am more used to. I believe one of TF/MM is scum, and I won't be able to get a confirmation on my read of you until then. And I always sort of ride the fence up until like day 3-4.

That's sort of fair. Although it also serves you as scum, because if we lynch Toon and he flips town, you then have 2 more people lined up for lynching in me and MM.

[acryon]

@Acryon

, who do you think is the scumteam?

I don't like to put too much stock in scum-teams, because associative reads pre-flips can get you into trouble, and I think you need to re-evaluate things after every flip, but gun to my head?
Toon Fighter, Boon, Formerfish

[acryon]

Obviously it's worth re-evaluating things, but it makes sense to analyze the interactions of people to see if there's some kind of potential connection, no?
Have you seen any interactions between Boon, Toon and Foon that would make them more likely to be scum together?

Fish hasn't really interacted all that much with Boon and hasn't given him much of a skeptical eye. He seemed to sort of piggyback on the defense I initially had for Boon early on, but letting him most slide like he has doesn't fit FF's character. Not much from Toon-fighter on either of them, but what he has said has been mostly neutral. FF's stance on toon is odd. FF tends to have strong stances on things, but is shockingly null on Toon.

[acryon]

@eektor: You said earlier that given copper-town or Victor-town, chance of Cheety-scum goes up. What made you change your mind in light of

both

Victor and copper flipping town.

This was never said, I thought this sounded a little off so I checked their iso's. It was

ToonFighter

in 562 who suggested that if Copper or Victor flip town, Cheeto is more likely scum.

You're right. For some reason when reading over his ISO I mis-attributed one of the posts he quoted to him.

[acryon]

Acryon, I have no clue what I'm doing. My reads are horrible early game. Remember how hard I was town reading Thor day 1 Ninja mafia then just decided to hell with it? Also, my Zebulin tunnel...I can link my 2 scum games if you guys want to see them? Keep in mind, Acryon. I don't think you are scum unless Monkey is scum. And if Monkey is scum, I don't think Toon Fighter is.

Yeah, but you having horrible early game reads doesn't make you town. It doesn't make you scum either, but I do think having a list of 4-5 people you would be willing to lynch is a bit much.

Can I get an updated reads list from you, including who you would be willing to lynch?

I don't know that I agree. There's probably 3 scum. Having 4 scumreads sounds reasonable. I also have 4 scumreads, and while one of them is my definite preferred lynch, if any of the other 3 go down today you won't hear any complaints from me.

Idk. I think being okay with lynching fully half of the available players is a bit suspect.

[acryon]

@acryon - how is that any different from any other game you've played with me?

I mean I can't say that I recall you being okay with lynching half the possible players. But you're the scum-read of mine that depends the most on others' flips.

[acryon]

Would you lynch FormerFish this cycle Acryon?

I'd like to get an updated reads list from him first and I'd like to get his responses to the recent happenings, but if a Toon lynch were somehow impossible, it would be FF at this point.

[acryon]

I'm looking through this and the only time you addressed Elbirn D2 up to that point was.... when you called him out for asking you terrible questions. and you just told me you'd be reluctant to call that an alignment tell and that it was mostly play style. the only other thing I noticed is where you said his Boon post wasn't backed up by a Boon vote, but I'm guessing that itself wouldn't be a strong enough reason for a scum read.

is there more to this that I'm missing? if there is, elaborate.

I didn't talk about it much for the reasons I already stated earlier, but I did mention in passing my thoughts on elbirn.

I don't like elbirn either, but Toon needs to burn.

But I quoted his follow-up because it wasn't a good answer for it. This question from Toon just makes zero sense as town. If Toon is town, then he is telling Elbirn to engage in a thought process that is absolutely a complete waste of time and energy. Why would you ask someone to give you associative tells based on an alignment-red that you

know

is incorrect? From a scum-perspective, this kind of question allows Toon/other scum to have extra information on where Toon's reads are at. There is literally zero town reason to ask this question.

disagree. the town reason for asking that is to make sure Elbirn is *actually* legitimately scum hunting and forming a complete picture of the game; while it would necessarily be wrong, cases usually say more about the person making the case than the person the case is about.

I'm assuming you meant Elbirn's reads. why would scum specifically focus on getting reads from Elbirn? usually "fishing out reads" isn't actually done often in practice, and when it is it's usually done to someone who's perceived as a large threat (and no offense but I don't exactly think Elbirn fits here).

I still don't follow your logic here.

Completely disagree. How does it ensure he is actually legitmately scumhunting? All he has to do is come up with a good story from there of who else is scum, which if he is town

or

scum, he will have.

I can't say why he directed the questions toward Elbirn specifically, because it's mostly WIFOM, but I just don't buy that question as coming from town at all. Town gains little, if anything, from the answer, and given Elbirn-town, scum gains information they didn't have.

[acryon]

So...Thinking it over. We could lynch Toon, and he could flip whatever he flips, and then no matter what I'm going to want Acryon's blood D3. Or we could lynch Acryon who I'm confident will flip scum regardless. Acryon's death would also be more helpful in terms of information imo. If he's town, my proposed scumteam pretty much falls apart and I need to go rethink my life. If he's scum, odds of Boon scum go up, odds of Monkeyman scum go up.

Despite your confidence, let's pretend you lynch me and I do flip town. What would the re-thinking of your life lead you to?

[acryon]

Before I answer that, how is your question any different from Toon's, which you kinda shit on?

It's the exact opposite of Toon's. I know I'm town, so I ask you about a scenario that is a certainty from my standpoint. If Toon is town, then he asked you about a scenario that has a 0% chance of happening.

[acryon]

Going to have to think about all of this a bit, but at least last night went a lot better than the night before

[acryon]

Acryonnnnnnn the weekend is over.
You need to come in here and spill your reads and your role before someone derphammers.

I'm at L-2; I'm not going to claim until I'm at L-1. I would hope no one would derphammer.

[acryon]

Actually nevermind. Just realized Boon said he is ok with a lynch on me today, so I;m not going to risk that.

I'm 2-Shot Vig. Used my vig shot first night on Copper (fail), and used my second last night on FF and presumably I double-stacked with scum? Never played with a traitor before so still not 100% sure how that works.

[acryon]

I think other scum are most likely Boon and Elbirn. Boon is probably by number one suspect at this point, but I would be ok with an Elbirn lynch as well. That being said, let's take our time, especially since I'm now almost definitely dying tonight barring some medic dodge WIFOM.

[acryon]

Actually nevermind. Just realized Boon said he is ok with a lynch on me today, so I;m not going to risk that.

I'm 2-Shot Vig. Used my vig shot first night on Copper (fail), and used my second last night on FF and presumably I double-stacked with scum? Never played with a traitor before so still not 100% sure how that works.

Why did you choose FF to shoot last night?

Because I thought he was most likely scum after Toon, and especially after Toon flipped town. A good bit of gut was involved as well.

[acryon]

It just seems weird to me that he would pick FF to vig, of all people. Plenty of others have drawn more attention. I've had a tunnel on me all game, Boon's been Boon, Monkey's been Monkey, Eektor's been shifty. Why pick FF?

Why Pick FF?

Would you lynch FormerFish this cycle Acryon?

I'd like to get an updated reads list from him first and I'd like to get his responses to the recent happenings, but if a Toon lynch were somehow impossible, it would be FF at this point.

[acryon]

I did this to Reinoe too. Fake hammered then forgot it wasn't a hammer. haha. Thought Elbirn might slip himself up after. I still believe it's Pie and Elbirn.

Are you saying you fake-hammered on purpose?

[acryon]

@Acryon - yeah, I do that sometimes. But then I forgot it was fake. Haha.

I get that, but I'm talking about this case. It was your intent this time to actually hammer, correct?

[acryon]

Owait acryon you totally already said you think Elbirn/Boon are scummates.
Do you think all of this is scum theater then?

I think Boon is more likely scum than Elbirn, and I would say almost 100% one of the two is scum, but I would not be surprised

at all/i] if this was scum theater. I think that if they are both scum, they are both feeling the fire pretty hard, so bussing is probably the best play for them,

[acryon]

Enjoyed this site while it lasted, but an overzealous mod combo'd with ambiguous rules and unequal application has soured it for me.

@Mod: Replace me please.

[acryon]

Edit: Not our mod.