Mini 1642: The Burning (GAME OVER FLAMES HAVE ENGULFED TOWN)

[Flames682]

Votecount 1.05

Toon Fighter - 3 (eektor, copper223, Futan)

MonkeyMan576 - 2 (Formerfish, Elbirn)

copper223 - 2 (Boonskiies, VictorDeAngelo)
Formerfish - 1 (MonkeyMan576)
Futan - 1 (RadiantCowbells)
VictorDeAngelo - 1 (Toon Fighter)

Not Voting - 3 (Cheetory6, SiX, acryon)

With

13

alive, it's

7

to lynch.

Day One's deadline is Monday, February 2, @ 12:11 PM PST, which is in (expired on 2015-02-02 12:11:00).

[Formerfish]

I'm going to have some time tomorrow morning to respond to things. Word up.

[VictorDeAngelo]

*snips*

@copper, no post in particular: why the gloating about your experience as scum? Don't like it, and makes me want to lynch you. Not particularly scummy though, just don't think gloating is ever useful.

104, @victor: That is a shitty reason for a vote and you know it. Don't like this post a single bit

*snips*

Biggest scum reads: Victor and Monkey

Minor: Eektor and copper

So you don't like Cooper gloating, but you also don't like me criticizing the gloating. And you don't like my vote on Cooper, yet you also have him in your lean scum pile. There's a real disconnect among your reads.

@Toon
That is not gloating, Victor claimed I tried to buddy up to the IC by faking a townread on her and that I am scum for it, I explained I consider that a bad play (do you disagree?) and provided evidence as to why it is statistically unlikely for me to play like this.

Or to put this a more factually accurate way; I said you were buddying the IC by saying you liked her vote and sheeped it. I also don't think you can take a few scum wins and I say it's now statistically unlikely you will do anything as scum that would mean a player could catch. In fact it's probably the most spurious argument I've heard in a while.

I do want to FoS on Elbirn as his reason for a vote on Monkey seemed weak and there is something off about his posts.

Outside of the newbie game the three of us played together, do you have any other experience of Elbirn?

When I'm ready to push a wagon I'll start being wordier with my posts.

Before you worry about wordier posts, can say what you explain what you didn't like about Futon's post, because I'm not seeing anything wrong with it.

[copper223]

@Victor

Or to put this a more factually accurate way; I said you were buddying the IC by saying you liked her vote and sheeped it. I also don't think you can take a few scum wins and I say it's now statistically unlikely you will do anything as scum that would mean a player could catch. In fact it's probably the most spurious argument I've heard in a while.

anyone that can read would catch that, so Acryon for instance should be able to tell you it would be unusual for Copper_scum as I had to navigate a 20 page cc battle without slipping about his role PM.

In fact now that I know the mod put it in after the game started I'm not happy with him about it.

What is spurious is your argument that I did it because I did it, when I gave you a logical breakdown of why I think it's bad for me to do so I would not intentionally and you just ignored it.

I also find really questionable your statement about why shouldn't I

townread

the IC, because if you know about the IC that statement is a lie, I would not read anything about her as I would already know, your interpretation there is very forced.

I'm not voting you because Toon is and his readlist was very opportunistic which I find scummier than an OMGUS bad tunnel which can sometimes come from town as well.

[eektor]

@copper I was thinking Elbirn is mentioned he gets on defends and goes back to lurking, but he did say he was in another game so that might just be coincidental and me being paranoid.

@Elbirn I don't like when people dodge questions too, but do you see that as scum motivated or town? I can see the buddying of acryon with boon, but right now i'm town reading acryon with a null on boon, so I don't think much of it. Also my OMGUS on you was partially because I thought you might have stolen my vote. What do you think of Victor so far?

@Victor nope

[acryon]

Or to put this a more factually accurate way; I said you were buddying the IC by saying you liked her vote and sheeped it. I also don't think you can take a few scum wins and I say it's now statistically unlikely you will do anything as scum that would mean a player could catch. In fact it's probably the most spurious argument I've heard in a while.

I agree that someone being good or not at playing scum doesn't mean that they will never do X behavior, but I do think it makes it less likely they will. At the same time, a good enough scum is also more capable of next-leveling, so I think it's ultimately close to a wash.

I don't agree that this is what copper is doing, and it does seem like kind of an odd thing to really be driving forward. This would be my 3rd game with you Victor and you are scum in all three?

[VictorDeAngelo]

anyone that can read would catch that, so Acryon for instance should be able to tell you it would be unusual for Copper_scum as I had to navigate a 20 page cc battle without slipping about his role PM.

In fact now that I know the mod put it in after the game started I'm not happy with him about it.

So yet more "I'm so great as scum, the fact that Victor suspects me means I must be town cause scum!me can never be caught". Sigh.

What is spurious is your argument that I did it because I did it, when I gave you a logical breakdown of why I think it's bad for me to do so I would not intentionally and you just ignored it.

Not once have provided any logical explanation for anything, you simply keep telling to me your apparently such a great scum player, you wouldn't be caught out doing scummy things.

I also find really questionable your statement about why shouldn't I

townread

the IC, because if you know about the IC that statement is a lie, I would not read anything about her as I would already know, your interpretation there is very forced.

It was response to you originally trying to claim that scum wouldn't be publicly town reading the IC. It's trivial for any player of any alignment to call a conftown town. It's simply another case of you trying to force a towntell out of nothing.

[acryon]

anyone that can read would catch that, so Acryon for instance should be able to tell you it would be unusual for Copper_scum as I had to navigate a 20 page cc battle without slipping about his role PM.

In fact now that I know the mod put it in after the game started I'm not happy with him about it.

So yet more "I'm so great as scum, the fact that Victor suspects me means I must be town cause scum!me can never be caught". Sigh.

What is spurious is your argument that I did it because I did it, when I gave you a logical breakdown of why I think it's bad for me to do so I would not intentionally and you just ignored it.

Not once have provided any logical explanation for anything, you simply keep telling to me your apparently such a great scum player, you wouldn't be caught out doing scummy things.

I also find really questionable your statement about why shouldn't I

townread

the IC, because if you know about the IC that statement is a lie, I would not read anything about her as I would already know, your interpretation there is very forced.

It was response to you originally trying to claim that scum wouldn't be publicly town reading the IC. It's trivial for any player of any alignment to call a conftown town. It's simply another case of you trying to force a towntell out of nothing.

Although I like most of this a good bit.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Or to put this a more factually accurate way; I said you were buddying the IC by saying you liked her vote and sheeped it. I also don't think you can take a few scum wins and I say it's now statistically unlikely you will do anything as scum that would mean a player could catch. In fact it's probably the most spurious argument I've heard in a while.

I agree that someone being good or not at playing scum doesn't mean that they will never do X behavior, but I do think it makes it less likely they will. At the same time, a good enough scum is also more capable of next-leveling, so I think it's ultimately close to a wash.

I don't agree that this is what copper is doing, and it does seem like kind of an odd thing to really be driving forward. This would be my 3rd game with you Victor and you are scum in all three?

I remember Friends and Enemies but can't recall the other, what was it?

[acryon]

Or to put this a more factually accurate way; I said you were buddying the IC by saying you liked her vote and sheeped it. I also don't think you can take a few scum wins and I say it's now statistically unlikely you will do anything as scum that would mean a player could catch. In fact it's probably the most spurious argument I've heard in a while.

I agree that someone being good or not at playing scum doesn't mean that they will never do X behavior, but I do think it makes it less likely they will. At the same time, a good enough scum is also more capable of next-leveling, so I think it's ultimately close to a wash.

I don't agree that this is what copper is doing, and it does seem like kind of an odd thing to really be driving forward. This would be my 3rd game with you Victor and you are scum in all three?

I remember Friends and Enemies but can't recall the other, what was it?

My first game actually. Crossroads Mafia. You ended up replacing out, but it was you and T S O at the beginning.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Oh yeah, I forgot that game. The only notable thing was that it was second time I played with TSO, second time we were scum together, and the second time he replaced out on day 1. I'm still waiting for game 3 to see whether the problem was me all along.

[acryon]

Oh yeah, I forgot that game. The only notable thing was that it was second time I played with TSO, second time we were scum together, and the second time he replaced out on day 1. I'm still waiting for game 3 to see whether the problem was me all along.

Sad

Do you think copper is scummier than monkeyman?

[copper223]

Not once have provided any logical explanation for anything, you simply keep telling to me your apparently such a great scum player, you wouldn't be caught out doing scummy things.

What am I doing this for? Best case you believe me and every night I don't get killed I am under more WIFOM suspicion, resulting for sure in an alignment check sooner or later if available or me getting lynched, and as you said there is always the chance I get insta-lynched because you don't believe my claim I have an early townread on Radiant.

It was response to you originally trying to claim that scum wouldn't be publicly town reading the IC. It's trivial for any player of any alignment to call a conftown town. It's simply another case of you trying to force a towntell out of nothing.

It's not trivial, it's highly suspect if you assume I prepared that as a gambit, because the only logical conclusion you can draw is I should know she is town so I should not be reading her, that is exactly what Eektor asks me about in his post and what I would expect, so what you should have said if you thought that was the case is: Copper's trying to further "show" us he has no clue about Radiant by faking a read on her is what is happening there, instead your line is that any town or scum would do so because it's

neutral to townread a confirmed

, which is absolute BS (as Eektor's immediate questioning of me about it when it happened shows).

VOTE: Victor

[copper223]

If Victor or one of Monkey/Former turn out to be scum, review Elbrin snd Eektor because that's a tvt is sometimes scumcode for my teammate is arguing with a town.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Oh yeah, I forgot that game. The only notable thing was that it was second time I played with TSO, second time we were scum together, and the second time he replaced out on day 1. I'm still waiting for game 3 to see whether the problem was me all along.

Sad

Do you think copper is scummier than monkeyman?

Yes, but both are solid scumreads and I'm considering shifting my vote to Monkey once the stragglers are caught up as I think he would be the more informative lynch.

It's not trivial, it's highly suspect if you assume I prepared that as a gambit, because the only logical conclusion you can draw is I should know she is town so I should not be reading her, that is exactly what Eektor asks me about in his post and what I would expect, so what you should have said if you thought that was the case is: Copper's trying to further "show" us he has no clue about Radiant by faking a read on her is what is happening there, instead your line is that any town or scum would do so because it's

neutral to townread a confirmed

, which is absolute BS (as Eektor's immediate questioning of me about it when it happened shows).

VOTE: Victor

And yet I have clearly said I never assumed it was part of a clever gambit, and I can't understand why keep trying to bring the idea that my read is somehow related to some sort of gambit. Also, I still can't understand what your trying to get at with the whole town reading Radiant thing. I feel ridiculous having to say this, but I never been in a game where townreading a player, who was mod confirmed town, was somehow alignment indicative. I'd ask you to tell me where I'm wrong but I doubt I'd get a sensible answer out of you, and this back and forth isn't getting me anywhere.

[copper223]

@Victor

You can stop trying to dress this up as something it isn't Coop. You tried to subtly buddy the IC (yeah, I still think it's more likely you knew Radiant was conftown and tried to get her on side than you being too busy to read the big red bold posts and so derpy as to read IC as inexperienced challenged over innocent child)

Gambit or not it's irrelevant for my point in 162, you said you believe it's likely I knew her alignment and tried to buddy up, but you then say it's normal for me as scum (or town but that's not relevant here) to just give a townread on her because that is not alignment indicative.

I call BS on that, townreading her is going to bring suspicion on me because it's unnatural, and if you really believed my plan was to buddy up the IC (can you explain why I would do so?) then what I would have expected from you is a reinforcement at that point, aka Copper is confirming his bogus fake read of the IC, not saying what you did there is neutral and it has never been alignment indicative for me in another game.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Here's a better question:

Why would you, as town, keep trying to draw me into pointless arguments?

I mean at this point a few things are clear. You come across as a clever guy. You're clearly not bad at mafia. So why I am having to find answers to stuff which most newbies would have figured out for themselves.

I will say for the final time that it is normal for any player to townread a confirmed town and therefore is not alignment indicative. If your going to persist in saying that's bullshit then we're going to simply disagree and I'm just going to ignore you with regard to the subject. It's not just that I have seen town and scum do it, but I can think of only one game where the alignment of a IC has even been questioned outside of a jokey fashion (and that was a large theme uPick game where some people suspected the mod of being bastardly). Since this is a normal game I have no doubt you would townread the IC as scum, just as I have doubt you would do it as town and I don't know what more I can say about something that wasn't really that relevent in the first place.

As for asking me why you would buddy an conftown as scum, the answer is equally patronising. For the same reasons mafia buddy anyone, to get them on side. Mafia can't lynch by themselves, they need town to help, just like they want town to townread them. So why not try and get the one conftown in the game to lead a mislynch and at same time try to get them to think your town. I mean, the only reason you would ask such a dumb question was if you were unfamiliar with buddying in the first place, which given what I said before, I have hard time believing.

[eektor]

If Victor or one of Monkey/Former turn out to be scum, review Elbrin snd Eektor because that's a tvt is sometimes scumcode for my teammate is arguing with a town.

@copper Are you saying if Victor, Monkey or Former is scum, check me and Elbirn or are you saying if Victor is scum check Elbirn and if either Monkey or Former is scum check me?

[copper223]

@Victor
The reason why I'm asking you these questions is to try and understand if you have legitimate reasons or are scum, and nothing to do with being patronising or rethorical.

What you just gave are cookie cutter definitions for nulltells and buddying, the problem is these definitions don't make sense in the context you are using them and the beliefs you are expressing.

You say I buddy up to radiant because scum may find it a good idea to do so to get more votes, that's what buddying is, but you fail to address why I chose radiant, a player that is confirmed, there are major consequences for me choosing her, which I gave to you in 162 and that you couldn't care less about apparently, it would be a reasonable belief from you if your line is I missed she is an IC and chose her as my buddy target, instead you say I knew she was an IC and chose her, so why aren't you trying to figure out why I picked her in particular instead of applying the standard definition of buddying for this case? The two clash.

You say giving a townread on confirmed town is a null tell, but your expressed belief in this game is that I am trying to fake a townread on the IC, for you it should not be a null tell, it should be proof I'm trying to sell said bogus read. Once again these two approaches clash.

My conclusion is you are giving these definitions because you think they are proper but the context where you apply them doesn't make sense and doesn't match your beliefs, so likely your beliefs are a lie and you are faking the scumhunting, it goes back to what radiant first picked up on about using absolute tells.

That's fine, I also don't want to make this a 1v1 show, while you ignore me I'll try my best to get you lynched.

[copper223]

@Eektor

@copper Are you saying if Victor, Monkey or Former is scum, check me and Elbirn or are you saying if Victor is scum check Elbirn and if either Monkey or Former is scum check me?

Sorry if the formatting was unclear, I'm saying if Victor is scum check Elbirn, if Monkey/Former is scum check you.

[Futan]

Didn't like that last post at all.

Well that's mighty nice of you.

Look forward to reasons given at an undetermined time.

[eektor]

@copper Ok, that makes sense then.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn I don't like when people dodge questions too, but do you see that as scum motivated or town? I can see the buddying of acryon with boon, but right now i'm town reading acryon with a null on boon, so I don't think much of it. Also my OMGUS on you was partially because I thought you might have stolen my vote. What do you think of Victor so far?

Well I don't really see a town motivation for avoiding discussion. I can understand that there are, in some situations, some players who as town like to hold cards to their chest, or don't play as transparently as others, but if I ask someone a question and they ignore me, my first thought isn't "oooh this guys got a plan", it's "What is he hiding from us, and why would he do that?" And the answer to both of those questions is "Maybe he's scum." It especially doesn't make sense to me on Page 2 of Day 1, there's no way there's some overarching plan of his that he's fulfilling by dodging the most basic of questions.

Why do you townread Acryon? I don't scumread him, hell I feel fairly null on both, but I do feel he's buddying Boon.

What do you mean by you thought I "stole your vote"? Are you talking about that typo in the VC?

Honestly I think Victor has some interesting points, and I don't know why he's either dismissed or scumread for them. I agree with him on the whole promise-not-to-lynch thing with Acryon + Boon. 95 & 99 is an important point in his argument with Copper that I feel is either misrepresented or disregarded; yes, we get it Copper, Radiantbells is the IC. What did you townread her (him? female avatar going with her until corrected) for? If you completely missed the post stating that she was IC, then you must have read in to some other posts of hers and made a determination that she was town. If you can't tell us what those posts were, then you're just townreading someone without reason, and that might be buddying, or it might be pretending to have reads when you don't, and when you think about it, it sounds like crap. Coppers argument that "I wouldn't do X as scum because I'm 2legit2quit" is also bullshit. If you really are good, you'll make scumplays that no one with knowledge of your meta would expect. That's how WIFOM works. 152 156 = I like these.

I'm about to get something to eat, but I'll be back, I'll take a closer look at the Copper side of the argument, ISO him, and see if I can get a read out of that as well. But to answer your question Eektor, thus far Victor's okay in my book.

Also Fish and Boon are both town. Monkey is scum.

Hm. A question for you Acryon, why do you townread Boon? You give some reasoning in 88, but it feels thin. You say he plays like he did in his other games with you. How can you determine that when he hasn't provided enough content to analyze his playstyle? 11 posts with barely any content each, and prod dodging? Even less posts made at the time you made the above post. That doesn't seem to be enough to be indicative of playstyle nor towniness.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Victor
The reason why I'm asking you these questions is to try and understand if you have legitimate reasons or are scum, and nothing to do with being patronising or rethorical.

I didn't say there were rhetorical or patronsing, I said they distracting, by trying to move away from the heart the discussion to pointless, trivial side arguments that are barely anything to do with the main issues.

You say I buddy up to radiant because scum may find it a good idea to do so to get more votes, that's what buddying is, but you fail to address why I chose radiant, a player that is confirmed, there are major consequences for me choosing her, which I gave to you in 162 and that you couldn't care less about apparently, it would be a reasonable belief from you if your line is I missed she is an IC and chose her as my buddy target, instead you say I knew she was an IC and chose her, so why aren't you trying to figure out why I picked her in particular instead of applying the standard definition of buddying for this case? The two clash.

First, can you please stop with these long winding sentences, it makes harder to parse out what your actually trying to say.
Second, I don't get why your trying to make out that buddying the IC was some sort high risk scum strategy. It's was buddying, plain and simple, and I have grown tired of you trying to make it in something more complicated.
Third, I don't get all this consequences talk, but I sense it's another attempt to try to make it sound like this is some sort of high level debate we having when it really isn't that complicated.
Fourth, I don't see why it's necessary to spend lots of time wondering the why of what you did. I suspect that didn't sit down and make a detailed list of pros and cons of the playerlist but instead simply decided to try a quick bit of buddying but instead just did with minimal thought. However this sort of speculating is - like so much else of your responses to me - just an attempt to distract me and others from the point at hand.

My conclusion is you are giving these definitions because you think they are proper but the context where you apply them doesn't make sense and doesn't match your beliefs, so likely your beliefs are a lie and you are faking the scumhunting, it goes back to what radiant first picked up on about using absolute tells.

I was reading this, thinking why is sprouting this nonsense, and then I noticed you nicely tie everything back Radiant.

[acryon]

Hm. A question for you Acryon, why do you townread Boon? You give some reasoning in 88, but it feels thin. You say he plays like he did in his other games with you. How can you determine that when he hasn't provided enough content to analyze his playstyle? 11 posts with barely any content each, and prod dodging? Even less posts made at the time you made the above post. That doesn't seem to be enough to be indicative of playstyle nor towniness.

It's not that I'm townreading him as much as I'm not scumreading him. His play this game feels exactly the same as his play in the other two games I've played with him where he was town. He hasn't done anything that seems scummy to me, and anything that he has done that seems at all weird seems very Boon to me.