Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[fferyllt]

hi guys!

[fferyllt]

VOTE: fairylit

fer-ihlt

[fferyllt]

you said you weren't going to bus, notsci. I'm disappoint.

[fferyllt]

true!

[fferyllt]

I like layla for town, I think.

[fferyllt]

I like layla for town, I think.

I only made 3 posts.

it doesn't take a ton of posts to get the occasional snap-read.

[fferyllt]

I like layla for town, I think.

I only made 3 posts.

it doesn't take a ton of posts to get the occasional snap-read.

Ok.

Then why is not science not a townread when he basically did the same thing as I did?

he didn't do the same thing you did. also, he and I have a lot of game history together. the dance has hardly begun.

[fferyllt]

i actually got the opposite reading that post, but i think i'm splitting hairs.

Ffe's reasoning I'm not really interested in hearing right now because apparently it looks like it's tied to someone who she's trying to "dance" with, but I am interested in hearing yours.

my reasoning for thinking you could be town isn't tied at all to notsci.

[fferyllt]

Vinkah are you new to this game?

i plead the fifth

do you have a pronoun preference?

[fferyllt]

Then I guess I misunderstood.
I don't think what he did and what I did is not different at all so she saying that there's a difference made me assume that it has a tie somewhere.

you jumped right into the middle of the page 1 sparring match, and did so with a light and freeflowing feel. You're relatively new to MS. IME new-ish scum players aren't that spontaneous. If your posts had happened on page 2 or 3 I wouldn't have gotten the same sort of townfeel from it. following on that with the first actual poke at game content was also town-looking.

[fferyllt]

she hasn't done anything (yet, anyway!) to make me question my initial impression.


also, I love this game's name!

[fferyllt]

Vinkah, was there a reason that you didn't poke at me for my layla-read reasoning when you said your read was opposite?

[fferyllt]

Either I'm an idiot or I was FoS-ing a town-Fferyllt in another game for reads and posts like this. I wish I remembered.

We've only played 2 games together, so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

I replaced into both games, and you replaced into one of them. I'm curious what the circumstances were. My approach when there's game-data is not much like my early-day 1 approach.

[fferyllt]

I'm rather hurt I didn't get a reachout

Tammy's not getting a damn christmas card this year.

Also is that actually a scumread? I read that as RVS.

that's ok, we can form the first townbloc and exclude both of them!

[fferyllt]

That's acceptable.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE:

embracing my inner ffery

<3

[fferyllt]

ffrey, how do you say your own username in your head?

fer-ihlt. slight emphasis on the second syllable. in gaelic is pronounced with the emphasis on the first syllable, but that's never been how I internally hear it.

[fferyllt]

So ffery, right now I'm at

You/Layla town

Wicked/vinkah maybe town

Ane maybe maybe maybe town

RC nottown

you?

If I were writing a reads list, I'd have Wicked and vinkah one step up from Maybe Town (my designation for null), so I think we're on the same page there.

Ane and RC are both null with squinty eyes. I've only played with RC 3 times. this is more playful than I've seen him play in the other games, but there's such a time-gap between our games, that I'm not sure playful is unusual for him or what it would signify. If I didn't respect the hell out of his scum game I'd probably be leaning slight town just because all things equal, I like people who look relaxed in the early game.

[fferyllt]

I will too. Nacho and I played as sangres against scum-RC in the most recent game I played with RC, and that was over a year ago. We didn't catch onto him until day 2 after we'd tracked his partner visiting the night 1 kill.

[fferyllt]

What am I a building block?

I missed this earlier. What do you think of notsci's reads besides yourself?

[fferyllt]

lol I was rereading the game from page 1 and thought that was a post I'd somehow missed on page 3.

[fferyllt]

inorite?

I've been staring at nacho's 2 posts off and on tonight, trying to gauge how panicky I feel.

[fferyllt]

cheetory you're not flashing out blinding beams of towniness. I miss them. :/

[fferyllt]

this RedCoyote push just feels like low hanging fruit

I wouldn't characterize RC as low hanging fruit.


I can't believe I'm doing this and I'm not sure why, but I'm rereading ny 169 tonight. I'm on page 67 of 340.

[fferyllt]

Tammy I know you said you don't have thoughts on anybody, so it feels kinda dumb asking for your thoughts on someone, but I'd like to know what you think about RedCoyote and the reactions he's getting the last couple pages.

[fferyllt]

I haven't played much with him either, and it's mostly been when RC was scum.

Image conscious is part of what I've seen in his scum game, but his own description of how he plays scum fits the two games we played where he was scum to a T. I'm not seeing that here, and I'm seeing more of the irascible stuff I picked up on in the Walking Dead large theme game.

Actually, rather than image conscious, though that could be a factor, his scum game felt aggressively town to me. he had well developed and supported reads, and he argued his cases well, especially so on day 1.

[fferyllt]

Nacho, no thoughts about RedCoyote? Aneninen?

[fferyllt]

It should be pretty obvious that I'm forming my own read, notsci.

I haven't decided what I think about Nacho yet.

[fferyllt]

I want to see more from both of them.

[fferyllt]

how so?

[fferyllt]

have you played much with anen?

[fferyllt]

I've played with town-Anen twice. I modded a newbie game where he replaced into a scum slot.

I thought he was pretty smooth as scum in that game.

[fferyllt]

The newbie game I modded http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=59471

[fferyllt]

is it the typo? "it" was supposed to be "lot", I think. he was basically saying that having so many early townreads worried him.

[fferyllt]

I'm a little worried about cheetory, too. he was incredibly own to me in the last game we played, from very early in the game. I'm not getting the same townvibes here.

[fferyllt]

own = town.

[fferyllt]

I thought it was hasty and I thought the joking tone was off, like ha ha lets run him up! his next post was a quote-stripey case, and it wasn't an absolutelly horrible case.

but overall I just felt like his posts lacked a certain depth and sincerity.

[fferyllt]

nacho was part of my team in team mafia. I was the gestalt team player in the large theme game, but nacho followed along pretty closely and we talked in depth about the game while I was alive. Tammy was also in the game, though she wound up trading games with another player on her team. She was in the large theme game long enough to probably get a feel for cheetory's style in that game.

That paragraph probably makes no sense at all if you aren't familiar with the team mafia contest that happened in April/May.

[fferyllt]

I think I'd like some stuff to develop a little more before I go into greater detail.

[fferyllt]

cheetory I think you need to look at your own iso in that game and compare it to this one. Your first post in that game was all business and was a good observation. And your posts from there in the early game were good stuff, except for on one called out because I disagreed with you about something that you were probably directionally correct on since the player you were commenting on was scum. You were one of my first townreads in that game. My first mention of you, I was pushing back at bulba for bane-voting you. And by page 8 I was defending you from a player who turned out to be scum.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

here, I'm not voting you, I'm reaching out to you, basically asking you to step it up if you're town so I can stop worrying.

[fferyllt]

My vote on CDB was about as well informed as my vote on you was this game.
I didn't like the feel of your first few posts, there was a wagon and so I voted you.
In that game I didn't like the feel of the first few posts of CDB, so I voted him.

Literally the only difference between my start there and here is that I'm on VLA and lately I'm recognizing that my earlygame reads are usually kind of shit, so I'm trying to get real invested before I start actually throwing my weight around.

If you're reaching out to me, you should be asking me things, instead of just saying you're wary of me.

You said you were busy.

Now see, I assumed your vote of me was RVS because contrary to what you're saying here, you voted me before I made my first post.

And, even if that post and my hello to notsci felt scummy to you, if you'd SAID so, you would have gotten a ton of feedback from other players in this game who know my approach to RVS and the early game.

[fferyllt]

Really?
Heh.
Well, it's entirely possible I'm misremembering the slight order of events that happened, but I definitely recall feeling like your first few posts gave across a vibe of forced enthusiasm.
If I don't talk about reasoning it's generally because I'm waffling too hard on little details and am just going based on feelings.

Well, your comment about me scumclaiming gave me the impression you were just playing along with notsci's and my page 1 goof around.

Did me tossing a page 1 tentative townread into the game bother you? I don't remember you commenting on that at all.

And that's actually one of the reasons why I state early reads when I get them. In players who haven't played with me before the reaction to being read, and the reaction to seeing someone being read that early are useful data.

When I'm town, the early game is a lot of fun and my enjoyment and enthusiasm usually do show. It's not a 100% scum marker for that kind of stuff to be absent, but it's probably cause for concern.

[fferyllt]

Wicked.
You must have realized that I'm without any allies in this game, however, plenty of players are after me because of little to none things.
At this point noone I think would care about my thoughts. If I lived till Tomorrow, it won't change. The scums will keep me around as an easy mislynch as far as they can. Unless I get investigated.

Again. Compare the sheer amount of my content with the amount of votes and fos-es. Many of those arrived while I was not posting at all.

Of course things like that should have been pointed out by someone else and you may believe them.

Also. I'm from mobile and off soon.

I feel like you've forgotten our first game together.

[fferyllt]

I NEVER vote in RVS.

If I did put down an RVS vote in a game, I'd probably get instalynched. I should do that sometime just for the lulz.

See, this is why talking out loud about this shit as it was happening would have been a good thing - it would have given me good vibes about you - I am well aware you don't have enough experiential meta with me to catch this kind of thing, and I am well aware it hasn't come up in our prior games due to you replacing in and me getting treestumped before I'd made a second post in our second game.

I think players who know me should have null-read page one, with the possible exception of my layla read. Page 2 is when I got into the mode of questioning, poking around and developing reads. Some of that stuff was probably alignment indicative.

[fferyllt]

ffery, what do you make of Cheeto's misrecollection? It seemed like you made a good point against him. But after reading your 209, it feels like you're more interested in explaining

your

behavior to

him

rather than figuring out if he is honest in misremembering.

I think his scumreading me is making a lot more sense now, and the convo is helping me get more of a read. I can see his perspective. Misremembering the order of a page one vote doesn't really trouble me. it's the kind of mistake that town is more likely to make than scum.

[fferyllt]

"ffery what do you think of this thing that cheeto did"
"wicked I'm right here why aren't you talking at me about it"
"ffery pls answer"
"wicked. I'm. right. here."
"ffery pls"
">:C"
":o"
"sdkjgdkjhgfkjhgkfhdgkjdfg"

I think it's because he finds MY posts weird. I'm pretty sure this is the first game he and I have played together. he modded the first game that nacho and I played as a hydra. It was a pretty memorable game, but it was a while ago, and I don't know if he had much feel for which of us was posting what in that game.

[fferyllt]

I still don't like people talking about me without having talked with me first. >:c

understandable.

[fferyllt]

*Rejects answering until you start talking TO me instead of talking AT me.*

*Actually noone CARES about my reads apart from calling pigeon poop every single thing I do.*

Thanks but I can easily recognize this. Aneninen#The_Regardless_Of_Card

If I don't have time to figure out who the scums amongst all those votes and the shadows-ers are (and most probably you're not giving me time for that), someone will be able to examine this game phase later. And I bet it shall reveal plenty of things.

That wiki page is pretty funny. There are so many players that are counter-examples to "everything you post is scummy" being a scum-marker rule of thumb. confirmation bias is a terrible thing.

Talk about your reads anyway. Seeing how someone is processing the game is how most players develop reads. Players who travel the thread like icebergs tend to get scumread.

[fferyllt]

Wicked, I have an interpretation of Cheetory's responses to me, but I'm not going to say more than I already have while you're poking at it with him.

[fferyllt]

I'm pretty sure this is the first game he and I have played together. he modded the first game that nacho and I played as a hydra. It was a pretty memorable game, but it was a while ago, and I don't know if he had much feel for which of us was posting what in that game.

Yeah I think this is the first time we've played together. I think I had something come up in real life that game, so I think I was a little bit distracted. I remember nominating town for a scummie and I remember a few townies (sangres included) had amazing reads, but everything else is pretty much a blur unfortunately... If and when I do check your meta, I will go to a more recent non-hydra game, not that one.

Town won that scummie! It was amazing.

And yeah, you had something come up. I think you went on vacation for a week or so and came back to a game that had already been won. the final game day was really short.

[fferyllt]

Fferyllt. I don't know what you meant by that.

I'm pretty sure one of my first acts upon replacing into that game was to beat BBT about the head and shoulders for tunneling you. It was my first time playing with you both. Another of my early acts was to correctly scumread 2 players. And a third was to townread 2 of the three masons, including you.

[fferyllt]

Ffery, if scum, would have correctly predicted exactly where our interactions would go when she was in a position to read me and just me and would be pulling it off flawlessly. And while not completely impossible, it's uncharted territory as far as our interactions go so would be pretty impressed if she did end up flipping scum here.

I came into the game expecting you to push me pretty early. I'd expect that regardless of your alignment or mine. The fact that you didn't is a little confusing. I had picked up at least a couple townreads by the time you showed up, but it wouldn't have been difficult for you to shake them up.

[fferyllt]

I don't think there's a very strong motive to misremember at all, regardless of alignment. Normally, when people fuck up things that are very easily fact-checkable, I give them the benefit of the doubt.

I think that scum would be more likely to fact check before making the post than town would, out of an interest in being consistent.

[fferyllt]

Nacho have you played much with gnomeo?

[fferyllt]

i haven't. I'll eventually do a meta dive but am being lazy atm.

[fferyllt]

I came into the game expecting you to push me pretty early. I'd expect that regardless of your alignment or mine. The fact that you didn't is a little confusing. I had picked up at least a couple townreads by the time you showed up, but it wouldn't have been difficult for you to shake them up.

I thought that you seemed to be in a good, confident stride at the beginning of the game and didn't think that pushing you and possibly throwing you off that stride was a good idea. Then came the posts directed at me and suddenly I had a strong town read on you.

The only post I directed at you before this exchange was a question about your thoughts on RC and Anen.

[fferyllt]

ah. I thought you meant addressed to you. I can see that.

and yeah - I wanted to refresh my memory on how you went about talking me down in that game. I knew your read flip on Sakura had sealed it. The bonus was looking at other players' read evolutions on your slot.

I wish I'd reread that game during the Whedon mini.

[fferyllt]

For much the same reasons I'm inclined to vote gnomeo right now.

Tammy, when you get a chance, your thoughts on Nacho?

[fferyllt]

hey dummies.

all this fuss about tammy's rvs vote still being down.

if it bothers you so much you should probably hound me too. I haven't put a vote down yet this game and probably won't for another calendar day or two.

[fferyllt]

oh hey I'm about to pour my third glass of sangria!

[fferyllt]

red. with a splash of san pellegrino, and slices of orange and lime. oh and the rim of the wine glass is dipped in guajillo chili powder, sort of like how you'd salt a margarita glass.

I picked that trick up in a Salvadoran restaurant in San Jose.

[fferyllt]

Hmm?

Agreeing with implosion about the advisability of sheeping you on gnomeo. Though implosion changed his mind.

For me it's about the relative probability of you bussing right out of the gate in this game if you're scum, and the relative probability that you're promoting a good wagon for town if you're town.

But, I want to check some gnomeo games first, and also review Anen's town and scum games that I participated in to be sure I'm remembering things accurately, and remembering the important things. Which will probably happen tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

That would make an interesting statistical analysis. hypothesis: I capitalize more than normal when drinking but not (yet) drunk enough to need spell checker.

[fferyllt]

fferyllt, yesnomaybye? white or red sangria?

reread this page and now I'm not sure if yesnomaybe was about drinking or about your reads list?

I mostly would agree with your townpile. I'm aware that notsci could be jollying me along, but I think that will become apparent with more time. for now I'm treating him like town and listening to the echoes I get back.

I got pretty good townfeels from Cheetory today. Tomorrow I'll probably go back and look at my notes from an offiste meta dive I did in our first game.

RC is provisionally town to me, but is a high priority to keep reevaluating.

Tammy's getting more town all the time, but there are a few things I'm waiting to see from her still. they're kinda perfunctory at this point, but I'll probably get a little paranoid if those things never show up.

Pieguy hasn't yet done anything that makes me want to townbin him and take him off my worry list.

My nacho read has a lot of entanglements with Tammy and pieguy because if I become sure sure they're town I will factor their nacho reads with mine in a triangulation attempt. Or if my nacho read firms up dramatically I may forge onward and stop caring about triangulation.

Your meh pile is my high priority sort pile for the most part.

Aneninen - without reviewing our mutual games - looks more like his scattershot town game I saw in our first mini normal than he does the very collected and town-looking scum game he played in the newbie I modded. That's based on memory and I need to make sure my memory is good.

Basically I have a town pile and a sort pile. Nobody is a dead-solid scumread yet.

[fferyllt]

nacho is really giving me the heebejeebes this game.

what specifically about nacho is giving you the heebejeebes?

[fferyllt]

my entrance to the game was superbly subpar. i know nacho gets his feels, but his feels for my entrance as strong as it was when the entrance was pretty shitty, is just meh?

by page 3 notsci and I were both calling you town-ish, and that was a seat-of-the-pants real-time parallel read. I don't know what specifically notsci liked, but my reasons weren't all that different from what nacho's said about you. I thought your reason for not-town-reading layla make more or less decent sense from someone who reads primarily based on actions and stances, even though I disagree and came to a different conclusion.

My reads are heavily tone-and-timing based, but when I once in a while think about reads in a more actions and stances way, I tend to be more hardass and find stuff more scummy.


I butt heads with people about my reads a lot when I'll state that the way someone approached a situation looks town and get told "but scum could do that, too". Some hypothetical, generic scum might be able to "do that" on some level, but I'm talking about mindset"- that I derive or reverse engineer from tone and timing and pattern-matching.

If it had been page 20 or 30 instead of page 2, I would probably have gotten into an argument with you about your read.

Seeing your entire

[fferyllt]

fferyllt, 294 scares me. i cant remember townindecisiveearlyonfferyllt.

whoever you are, it's been quite a while since we've played together. It's a little unusual for me not to have at least one scumread at this point. I could call gnomeo a scumread, but without the due diligence I owe a player I've never played with before, I won't.

I'm kinda getting back into a mental space and routine where I have the time to do 1 or 2 heavy duty meta dives on day 1 of most of my games. It's been a while getting there after last year.

[fferyllt]

since you're here though, notscience, can you remember earlyindecisivetownfferyllt? i can't?

I have never once seen ffery indecisive early and hold her vote until she felt confident about something

Ever.

the fuck?

[fferyllt]

I'm going to assume that's sarcasm.

p-edit ah. Most of my mental bandwith is devoted to wondering who Vincah is right now. The only way someone could have that impression of my game is if they've only played with replace-in-ffery or they haven't played with me in a year and a half or more.

[fferyllt]

I literally have asked that question from him at least 3 times regarding you

AT LEAST.

Thoughts on my claim from last page?

All I see is that comment about 1v1-ing pieguy? did I miss a post?

[fferyllt]

I'm kinda getting back into a mental space and routine where I have the time to do 1 or 2 heavy duty meta dives on day 1 of most of my games. It's been a while getting there after last year.

i respect, and understand that.

im just used to "LISTENTHEFUCKUPTHISISTOWNANDTHISISSCUMK?".

I do get there. Right now I have maybe 3 or 4 townreads I'd yell pretty hard about if they were being wagonned. They're not being wagonned.

[fferyllt]

that is what I mean

So you're saying that town-pie ALWAYS reads you correctly?

Why the hell wasn't she in the FF10 game?

[fferyllt]

I literally have asked that question from him at least 3 times regarding you

AT LEAST.

Who have you asked 3 times? And what? About my much-slowed pace?

[fferyllt]

the ff10 game with the fivetownneighborhoodwherekatsukibombedinneighborhoodthread ff10 game?

or another ff10 game?

that game.

[fferyllt]

I like alts as much as the next person but I also think that it does nothing for the game/is a distraction when the alt is like haha I'm an alt, here's the meta I know - which is in many cases wrong - but haha you don't get to answer for it because I can say what I think about your meta but be secretive about it and you can't actually answer for it. Mala kittens did that to me in mafia in the air and it drove me bonkers.

Mastin did that to me in Death's Diner. It was over a year before I learned who that alt belonged to.

I vig killed her because I thought it was scummy as fuck that someone would assert such a terribly off meta read from behind an alt.

[fferyllt]

Yes

I definitely remember making comments about it in a ton of games until I am just like

"this is ffery ok"

I'd say I will go back and get you games but frankly I can't even remember most of my games anymore

it probably ties to all those games where you were paranoid as hell about me. I thought it was because of a couple games where I actually was scum.

[fferyllt]

Yes

I definitely remember making comments about it in a ton of games until I am just like

"this is ffery ok"

I'd say I will go back and get you games but frankly I can't even remember most of my games anymore

Who was "him" in that post, though. I still don't get who you asked?

[fferyllt]

either of them makes sense, though I sometimes wonder if cabd's getting worse at reading me.

[fferyllt]

I think FF10 was doomed from the start, thanks to the neighborhood.

by day 2, I thought there was a good chance it was an all town neighborhood, but I wasn't there to keep it from imploding thanks to SOMEBODY night killing me.

[fferyllt]

what post are you talking about tammy?

[fferyllt]

I liked those posts. :/

They sang a song of forest fires to me.

[fferyllt]

Re nacho, his reads and those few but important points where his reads disgreed with mine felt a lot like what I expect from town nacho, but not in ways I haven't seen him emulate as scum.

There's somethng about my impression of his posts that I feel like you've picked up from scum-nacho. I'm a little disconcerted, and need to figure out if I'm wrong about that attribute even being a thing in this game.

[fferyllt]

kinda both.

If I wind up with a scum read of nacho based on stuff I've seen you scumread him for, and you townread him, then either I'm wrong or you're wrong. Either way, My sense of the lay of the game will be seriously warped by sorting through possibilities like you're just missing it and nacho's scum, I'm totally off base and nacho's town, You're scum and townreading nacho because you know he's town, or omg shoot me now you're both scum.

[fferyllt]

damn it. my townread of you guys in smite was a fucking piece of cake and I never looked back.

I want it to be that easy again.

[fferyllt]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, though.

I phrased it carefully because I don't want you to know what you need to fix if you're scum.

[fferyllt]

kinda both.

If I wind up with a scum read of nacho based on stuff I've seen you scumread him for, and you townread him, then either I'm wrong or you're wrong. Either way, My sense of the lay of the game will be seriously warped by sorting through possibilities like you're just missing it and nacho's scum, I'm totally off base and nacho's town, You're scum and townreading nacho because you know he's town, or omg shoot me now you're both scum.

Lol. Well I'm not exactly sure how I can assure you that I'm town except I think it will be increasingly apparent in my posts. I may not obvtown exactly like I used to, but I still think town is what I do. I really do think that as scum I'd have opened up a completely different way, though I guess it wouldn't preclude the idea of us being scum together.

My big problem with reading Nacho is often giving him way too much leeway early on. I know this, he knows this. He's told me that he's learned to gauge when I'm going to get serious about my read in him and make a real push. anyway I'm sort of in the process of some renegotiating some of the ways I read him and what those weaknesses are. I also know that I tend to town read someone after having a bad read in them. Forest fire was a particular bad paranoia read in you both. I know I overcompensate.

All of this is kinda why I think it's going to take me longer than usual to feel decent about that read.

If I don't consider this quantum entanglement, I have a decent townread of you at this point. And I'd probably have nacho as that sort of null that I really want to close one eye and tilt my head and go "yeah, town".

rereading ny 169 probably helps with the entanglement of your reads, because you didn't seem to see scum in nacho while you were in the game, unless I skipped over some of your posts last night. mara townread the shit out of Thor. And I had this scumread that I didn't hold onto, and wound up actually defending Nacho for most of my time in that game.

[fferyllt]

RC I"m here-ish if you have something you want to ask or discuss.

[fferyllt]

Cheetory, your reasons for suspecting Tammy make sense coming from someone with minimal experience playing with her. But, for the most part, the stuff you find suspect are things she does as town, particularly the bristling at Layla and Gnomeo.

If she's scum, she's doing a fantastic job of bringing that aspect of her towngame here.

I'm thinking back to how pyrotechnic some of our earlier game encounters were, until I had more of a handle on her town game, and had played against scum-Tammy a couple times.

[fferyllt]

When's the most recent time you've played with scumTammy?

I was scum with her in this game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=54228 - I was pixel hydra

I was town against scum-her in these games

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=46097 - I was sangres hydra

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=32904

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31960 - I was Sound of Silence hydra

The two most recent games where I saw her play as scum were newbie games and I was the mod. Newbie games are a little different. the games start with a larger percentage of players who don't know each other, the experienced players (especially the ICs) come under a lot of free-floating suspicion from newbs, and most of the ICs expect that and don't get crazy or cranky about unfounded suspicions, including Tammy. I'm including them for completeness, but I would never expect her to play like this in a not-newbie game. The thing that came through to me in those games is how much she hates being scum, and how she feels bad about pushing cases as scum, especially on newbies.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60064

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=58218

[fferyllt]

I'm town. I hope you're town so you can trust me. I don't see any reasons for doing this other than you want him on your side.

You hope she's town so she can trust you, and you're voting her.

You're waving away multiple people who have said that she often-often-often reaches out to Nacho first thing when she's town. Do you want examples? That many players can't all be scum in a game this size, and even if they were, I doubt they'd ALL defend a team mate from the same line of attack.

I have a lot of trouble understanding the scumhunting rationale of players who try to fit other players into round holes without also trying to figure what shape peg they're dealing with, so I need your help to understand this.

Do you find that generic expectations of scum behavior work well? I would expect to get a lot of false positives if I tried to play games without either having or developing a sense of how they approach the game as various alignments. Sometimes you have no choice but to read someone that way, but for me, it's not even close to optimal.

[fferyllt]

I'm town. I hope you're town so you can trust me. I don't see any reasons for doing this other than you want him on your side.

You hope she's town so she can trust you, and you're voting her.

You're waving away multiple people who have said that she often-often-often reaches out to Nacho first thing when she's town. Do you want examples? That many players can't all be scum in a game this size, and even if they were, I doubt they'd ALL defend a team mate from the same line of attack.

I have a lot of trouble understanding the scumhunting rationale of players who try to fit other players into round holes without also trying to figure what shape peg they're dealing with, so I need your help to understand this.

Do you find that generic expectations of scum behavior work well? I would expect to get a lot of false positives if I tried to play games without either having or developing a sense of how they approach the game as various alignments. Sometimes you have no choice but to read someone that way, but for me, it's not even close to optimal.

That line you're quoting is me commenting in how she is manipulating Nacho.

I'm trying to figure out why she plays the way she plays. If everyone keeps telling me that I should just believe what they're saying, why am I playing this game at all? If you would all just have backed off and let Tammy answer for herself, maybe I wouldn't need 15 pages and 10 players telling me she is town to figure out she is town.

Tell me this: do you think it's normal for her to not read Nacho as town, but still have a townread on RC because of "Nacho feeling okay about him"? Am I the only one seeing this?

Normal is a moving target in mafia. As you play multiple games over time with a player, their game shifts and evolves and so does yours. At this point in time, I feel like nacho can trick me easily into believing he's town, so even when I'm getting townfeels from his posts, I don't fully trust them. It will take time for me to really buy into the idea that Nacho is town, even though my reasons to not think he's town are minor and quite insubstantial compared to my reasons in some past games where I scumread him (correctly or not).

I expressed what I believe is a similar sentiment to Tammy's here.

Hmm?

Agreeing with implosion about the advisability of sheeping you on gnomeo. Though implosion changed his mind.

For me it's about the relative probability of you bussing right out of the gate in this game if you're scum, and the relative probability that you're promoting a good wagon for town if you're town.

But, I want to check some gnomeo games first, and also review Anen's town and scum games that I participated in to be sure I'm remembering things accurately, and remembering the important things. Which will probably happen tomorrow.

I've seen him bus right out of the gate, especially if the player seemed overall weak and had a clunky, suspicious looking entrance.

And I've seen town-him get a great early scumread and push it.

In other words I considered following Nacho on his vote of you even though I don't have a townread on hm yet.

Which is what you're saying Tammy did, correct?

[fferyllt]

slow day here.

I'm hitting the sangria again tonight but will be around.

[fferyllt]

I'm actually pretty fucking satisfied with Gnomeo's posts on the last few pages. waiting to see where this goes for the time being.

Are you still v/la?

[fferyllt]

Nacho, can you talk about your experience playing with Gnomeo?

[fferyllt]

huh gnomes does have experience with me but since it was in bbhoh where I hydrad with Nacho and he was "lynched" night one, he probably doesn't remember.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about that game too, then.

[fferyllt]

ffery

, who's scum?

wicked, I want more data from a few players. I have townreads and an assortment of question marks I haven't really been able to pursue during the last couple of days. I've read through gnomeo's isos in his completed games. I want Nacho and Tammy to talk about their game with him because his posts here so far best match that game in terms of tone, depth, and development.

I want to see more from pieguy. she's being kind of cagey at the moment, which makes it hard to follow her thoughts about the game.

Aneninen needs to get come back, engage, answer questions, and do a little more than yell about his wagon.

I thought about voting pie yesterday, but decided I'd rather learn more about her thoughts on the game before deciding where to vote.


Re scum games, I don't have a good recent scum game. My most recent non-hydra scum game is a newbie I replaced into: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60510

A game that probably represents the best I'm currently capable of as scum is http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=37251. It's a hydra game, but I made by far the majority of the posts. I was selkies.

[fferyllt]

What are your thoughts about RC?

[fferyllt]

I more or less agree with your thoughts about gnomeo's tammy case. And prior to reading his one theme game, I thought he's showing much more depth and development of his reads than he had in his earlier game. hoh is sort of an enigma in his meta.

[fferyllt]

Re RC I'm leaning town. It's not a strong lean and I'd like to see more discussion from him.

I'm not picking up a lot of scum vibes in this game. :/

[fferyllt]

experiential meta. I've played against scum-RC a couple times, and town RC once. This doesn't feel like his scum games. he plays a very assured and town-looking game as scum.

I'm cautious and I want to keep reevaluating but so far I feel like he's town here.

[fferyllt]

Like, in all seriousness, I think I just need to take my catch-up slowly, because I don't want to turn this into a pity party or something and every time I go to try and take in all of the things people are saying at how I'm playing all at once it kind of gets to me.
So, by all means, make the wagon on me happen, because I'm definitely playing the worst out of everyone in this game atm and it might even be informative, but just don't be expecting great things out of me when a dogpile is happening on me haha.

you were under more pressure in the advance wars game, I thought. There was a lot more data in the game thread when you replaced in, so it's hard to draw comparisons.

But, the stuff I found in your offsite scum games aren't here. I'm going to look at your completed ms games.

Wish I hadn't talked about your offsite meta in my neighborhood in that game!

[fferyllt]

It looked pretty town, actually.

I pressured you to the best of my ability because I wanted to confirm/refute orci's offsite meta case on you. The further that push went the more offbase I felt.

[fferyllt]

I'm in the middle of meta-ing a ton of cheetory games. hopefully will have some conclusions tonight

my gut agrees with implosion, but that brings me back to where the hell are scum hiding in ths player list.

[fferyllt]

experiential meta. I've played against scum-RC a couple times, and town RC once. This doesn't feel like his scum games. he plays a very assured and town-looking game as scum.

I'm cautious and I want to keep reevaluating but so far I feel like he's town here.

link me the scum games you're comparing it to?

scum games:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=35056 - I feel this one maps very nicely to what he's said about his scum game.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=27745 - first game I played with him. there was one tiny misstep he made in this game that I wish I'd pushed harder onl.

Town games:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=30368 - sangres game. I was pretty paranoid about RC in this one, but nacho correctly townread him.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=39196 - you and I hydra'd in this one. RC was lynched day 1. We weren't on the wagon. By the end of day 1 I was pretty freaked about the way we were being scumread and yet every time we voted it seemed like the wagon momentum changed with us.

[fferyllt]

details?

[fferyllt]

how do you plan to figure those pages out?

[fferyllt]

ffery, why is notscience Town?

I'm not sure he is. last night's posts didn't sit very well.

his post just above mine sounds kinda town, though.

[fferyllt]

ugh. v/la.

[fferyllt]

i was sort of under the impression that you thought he was Town from earlier in the game? was i mistaken?
also, where is your vote heading?
perhaps its the walls going back and forth but i'm having a hard time really feeling where your head is at in this game.

I got a pretty nice townsense from our early interactions, but not enough to make him forever town with no worries. I thought I made a post during the game's transition from sweetness and light to srs business to the effect that I was treating him like town for now and seeing what sorts of echoes and reflections I get back. But on a quick scan, I don't see the post in my iso.

[fferyllt]

re my vote, I was thinking about voting anen, but I feel like he's got enough votes atm

I haven't finished my cheetory meta dive, yet. probably bit off more games than was reasonable. I kinda like his recent posts, and haven't hated any of his posts enough to feel like he should be wagoned atm.

notsci, you're kinda reminding me of the uncouth game lately.

[fferyllt]

What do you think of the prior votecount ffery?

it's pretty spread out and it's bubbled along this way ever since Anen's wagon dissipated. town are milling around and casting about. there's no strong scum-scent to follow. that makes me worry about the players who are mostly lurking.

[fferyllt]

I feel disengaged too, and it scares me, given this player list. halfway through day 1 and 22 pages in this crowd is pretty weird.

[fferyllt]

Town

Wickedestjr
Implosion
Vinkah

Kinda Town

RedCoyote (paranoia keeps him out of the top list)
Cheetory
Tammy

Maybe Town (Null)

Nacho (stubborn paranoia keeps him here right now, though I like his posts and reads trajectories. Disagreed with his Cheetory push, but it impacted my cheetory read anyway. :/)
notsci (faded read)
Layla (faded read)
Gnomeo (I feel like he's too brief and abrupt on some level which makes him hard to read. If he's town he's processing the game so differently from me that I doubt I'll be able to understand him)

Not So Town

Anen - flaily feeling before he went on v/la. Didn't come back when he said he would, except to say "later".

[fferyllt]

yeah, lack of posting. I really liked her squinty-eyed reaction to being townread early, and also liked that she seemed annoyed when I at first just kept telling her what my read wasn't based upon. pretty much talking myself back into a townread just thinking about the first 5 or so pages.

[fferyllt]

Vinkah read has grown stronger as the game progressed. layla read is just laying there at this point needing ressusitation.

Not really germaine, but omewhere around page 1 I thi2nk I figured out who Vinkah is.

[fferyllt]

Vinkah read has grown stronger as the game progressed. layla read is just laying there at this point needing ressusitation.

Not really germaine, but omewhere around page 1 I thi2nk I figured out who Vinkah is.

lol I should step awaaaay from the keyboard.

somewhere around page 12

[fferyllt]

My top three are now probably notscience, Anen and Layla.

was trying to find what was bothering me.
i don't know what to make of it, but the best way to describe it is listing those three and voting ns who pretty much everyone has as eh? while it seems that there is a least a small contingent wanting to push Anen is underwhelming?
putting Layla in there also is also a bit surprising.

What do you see as the scum motivation?

[fferyllt]

Why is vinkah such a solid town read? And if your layla read took a hit because of lack of posting, how is vinkah such a solid town read that lack of posting can't affect it?

I realized that I don't really understand what you're asking here. Do you see Layla and Vinkah as comparable?

[fferyllt]

Why is vinkah such a solid town read? And if your layla read took a hit because of lack of posting, how is vinkah such a solid town read that lack of posting can't affect it?

I realized that I don't really understand what you're asking here. Do you see Layla and Vinkah as comparable?

You earlier had Layla as a decent town read for a reason that was clearly out there. Your read on her dimished due to lack of posting.

Your read on Vinkah didn't have that. So far as I can tell you liked Vinkah for the same reason why I didn't in that you saw a forest fire in the posts I thought were odd regarding Red Coyote.

Your read on Layla diminished due to lack of posting, yet Vinkah is a strong town read even though he also has a lack of posting. That read weird.

he's made twice the posts that Layla has, and in fact is within a post or two of your count.

I liked quite a few of his posts, but I called that one out in particular because it surprised me that he got stick for that post.

[fferyllt]

Town

Wickedestjr
Implosion
Vinkah

Kinda Town

RedCoyote (paranoia keeps him out of the top list)
Cheetory
Tammy

Maybe Town (Null)

Nacho (stubborn paranoia keeps him here right now, though I like his posts and reads trajectories. Disagreed with his Cheetory push, but it impacted my cheetory read anyway. :/)
notsci (faded read)
Layla (faded read)
Gnomeo (I feel like he's too brief and abrupt on some level which makes him hard to read. If he's town he's processing the game so differently from me that I doubt I'll be able to understand him)

Not So Town

Anen - flaily feeling before he went on v/la. Didn't come back when he said he would, except to say "later".

i still haven't read everything i missed bc preparing a house to move sucks, but this reads list makes me sad.

I thought I had you in the list. I could put you in leaning town, and I could also put you in null. I feel like you're not engaged and are kinda low key for the most part.

[fferyllt]

If Anen is scum, he must already feel like his scum team has lost and that's why he's so defeated/absent.

I wasn't meaning post count per se, but iirc vinkah has dipped in activity as much as Layla has, so I was wondering why one is so strong for you and the other, whom you seemed strong on, isn't?

Almost everyone's activity has dipped to some extent. It's reflected in the thread size. I've never come away from the game feeling like there has been a distinct lack of Vinkah-posting. Maybe that's due to not paying enough attention, but when I ISOed him earlier, I didn't see huge gaps in the post-numbers.

[fferyllt]

Anen, you know what's bothered me? It's that when I caught up in that game, you had played with a lot of humor laced through your frustration about being tunneled. I don't see that here.

I've thought that the role you had in that game, which should have made you unlynchable if you had to claim, gave you some level of confidence in the face of that pressure that you don't feel here.

And that's the main reason I've been waiting to see what you'd put into the game once your back.

[fferyllt]

if you saying that you like vinkah's posts like a forest fire is an indication that you think you know who he is then I'm surprised you're town reading him so easily.

that's not what I was saying. I felt like Vinkah was making an observation about this game that I think most of the town players made in the forest fire game, particularly about Quil and Yuriko. It's not as tight a meta circle in this game but there is definitely a group of players who will probably be able to meta-read each other here if they are all town, and there's a group of players who could easily be PoE'd without a lot of effort at actually sorting them (which was what happened in Forest Fire IMO). Whether RC is actually a player who could get PoE'd that way is debatable, but directionally it's a reasonable thing to anticipate.


And this point doesn't have much if anything to do with whether I know who Vinkah is.

[fferyllt]

I'm thinking (again) about voting Gnomeo, but it's not really based on anythng solid. Tammy I wish you and Nacho had more to say about that game you played with him. It was really the only one of his scum games that looks at all like this one.

[fferyllt]

lol definitely not soft-spoken.

[fferyllt]

Anen feels like a hot mess. If he's town I feel bad for not seeing it right away this time and wading in to do battle. :/

Tonally I'm getting occasional tiny overwhelmed-town flickers from his flailyness.

[fferyllt]

that's certainly the difference between this game and the first one I played with him. he was quite engaged.

[fferyllt]

here's his iso in the game I played with him.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

he was putting reads into the game from the get-go.

reading through his early posts in this game, be picks at posts, but doesn't put down actual reads nearly so quickly.

[fferyllt]

It was this game:

here's his iso in the game I played with him.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

he was putting reads into the game from the get-go.

reading through his early posts in this game, be picks at posts, but doesn't put down actual reads nearly so quickly.

[fferyllt]

I'm devoting most of tonight to sangria and friends. will be around later. Might bring a hammer.

[fferyllt]

Anen, you know what's bothered me? It's that when I caught up in that game, you had played with a lot of humor laced through your frustration about being tunneled. I don't see that here.

You don't think that its possible that stress of moving is bleeding into his play and making him less jokey than usual?

It is possible.

Do you think his scum game had a more serious tone?

You were in the anen-scum game I saw, but you didn't really cross paths. he replaced in, and you were the day 1 lynch.

And yeah, more serious tone. The other game I played with him, he replaced in on day 2 iirc, into a suspected slot that was town. he and I suspected each other all the way to the end, but managed somehow to lynch scum instead. his tone was more serious in that game, too. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=59471

Anyway, it's a decent point about rl stress, and would explain why his play feels off. My interest in hammering has waned a little. I'll figure out where I want my vote and put it down tonight.

[fferyllt]

I meant to link his scum game too: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=5947

[fferyllt]

Where are you thinking to move your vote?

[fferyllt]

I feel the same way re notsci. I'd want to push him if he were around to push back and react.

[fferyllt]

I don't have as much of a gnomeo read as I would like. he has 15 posts. July 21 was the last day of significant activity and it's been 3 posts since then, only one of which could remotely termed content-ful. Prior to this week there were a couple days where he pushed Tammy for her first post.

[fferyllt]

don't know if fireball or paranoia, ffery.

I don't either.

[fferyllt]

you've been very, non-confrontational very, non-incharge.

does that make sense to others?

I feel like the players I want to push are not good targets. I mean, look at Anen. All the flail and blood in the water doesn't mean he's scum. If it were me on the hot seat that kind of play would be a pretty strong indication I was town.

[fferyllt]

I posted some scum game links for wickedestjr.

[fferyllt]

One thing I got from today's posts is finally - FINALLY - a pretty strong townsense from Nacho. probably late to the party, but that was a ton of free-floating paranoia to work through.

[fferyllt]

I project myself or some other player who seems to match a pattern I see all the time.

The person who mentored me in my early mafia career had a rule of thumb that scum flail or appearance of emotions tends to feel off because scum players hold themselves in greater control and when they do lose it, the losing it tends to be out of proportion - mostly because it's pent up and because in-game threat is more critical to the smaller team.

Town tends to get outraged more quickly, and tends not to respond to the specifics. They're more pissed that their innate and pure towniness is somehow being missed, and they're way more paranoid about it.

All of those rules of thumb worked pretty well among players who were relatively inexperienced. Not so well when playing with people who have been at this for years.

Anen hasn't been at this for years.

[fferyllt]

what made you come to townNacho?

Seeing his thought process as he's working through the last few pages, and seeing him question the anen lynch even though he's on the wagon. if it's a mislynch he wasn't in a position to carry blame for it. It's not like some player he's played 50 games with and would be expected to get it right, and expected to pick up on anything that could retrospectively be seen as a town tell.

Last night, I wanted to vote Anen just to get this day over with and to get some data from the flip, wagon and night kill(s), even though my own belief in the wagon was never much better than tepid.

I could see Nacho working through the same ambivalence today.

I don't know what I want to try next. the low-content players are going to continue to be low content for a while yet, apparently. I wanted to dig into the isos again today, but I've been fighting a migraine all day. Maybe tomorrow I'll have more brain cells to devote here.

[fferyllt]

years!=experience!=skill

not directly, no. Which is why I still thnk about some of those rules of thumb, even at MS and even in player lists heavy on years-on-site.

[fferyllt]

poor arguement was to 699

shrug.

[fferyllt]

can we agree that Anen despite lack of "years" is a skilled player?

I'm not really sure how skilled. are you?

[fferyllt]

aren't you the one who showed previous games of Anen where he was above competent? i feel we both know skill is ambiguous. but Anen was on the team mafia winner so credit where credit's due?

Nothing against his team, but I don't think the best team, in terms of contribution to the winning of games, won. Team mafia was a lot of fun and most players brought their best play to the games. I'd play again. But, I wouldn't assume that the best team will win next time either. Even the process of determining "best" team beyond "was on the most winning sides of four games", wouldn't be an easy task.

I did show previous games. Did you actually look at them? My point was that Anen's slick win of the newbie game I modded didn't look at all like this game. It's more flaily than what I've seen before, even in our first game when he was pretty new on site. Nacho's observation about real life brings sense to a picture that wasn't really making sense before.

[fferyllt]

Though real life stress would have an impact on any alignment.

My head really hurts too much to think.

Vinkah I hate to quit for the night when you're here to talk to. :/

[fferyllt]

migraine. woke up with it. never went away.

[fferyllt]

Regarding my premise, it was never a strong premise, and I'm not confident I'm making good conclusions from superficial and weak similarities and differences.

[fferyllt]

It probably doesn't matter, but I'm curious why wicked isn't as strong town as your top tier.

It's been a really long time since you and I played a game together, and I'm being indecisive as fuck this game. I don't really get why I'm being townread that strongly by anyone.

still migraining. Not going to try massive read-time until it's over.

[fferyllt]

Have we played together? I played a game that you modded back in the day (in which I was scum), but I don't remember any games we played.

Wicked I haven't looked at as closely as I probably should but he's in vinkah's top tier and what i've read closely looks pretty good so I'm willing to put him in the town category.

I would describe your play (ffery) so far as very stereotypically obvtown. You could be scum playing really well in theory but you've just been giving logical thought processes, have been actively facilitating scumhunting amongst everyone, have been consistent enough, etc.

I kind of skimmed (or barely skimmed) nacho's posts since he made 9 of them in a row... if he made a case on ffery then i'll go back and look a bit more.

Rapture Mafia. hunterxhunterx. GiF's Rage mini normal (was the SK in that one). Two of those games were me as a hydra. Maybe that's why you don't remember me.

[fferyllt]

:/

I posted a link to the game.

here's his iso in the game I played with him.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

he was putting reads into the game from the get-go.

reading through his early posts in this game, be picks at posts, but doesn't put down actual reads nearly so quickly.

[fferyllt]

Nacho, you kept your vote on Anen, while he was at L-1, despite appearing to have changed your mind. Please explain.

Yeah, I'm curious about this too.

Also I agree sans evidence of two kills in the game that the gnomeo kill doesn't look like a target by mafia.

RC, in your hammer post you indicated an Anen lynch wouldn't be too informative, but there might be something to glean from his reads. What do you glean?

[fferyllt]

Hey ffery, you remember Cash Cabd?

yes.?

[fferyllt]

Do you remember what your reasoning for the kill was?

[fferyllt]

yes I did. Which is why I figure wait and see what another night phase brings.

What does a low info kill suggest to you?

[fferyllt]

Your theory is less paranoid than mine.

[fferyllt]

that killing a more obvious target would make someone stand out as another more obvious target that was passed over.

[fferyllt]

I think that's something to think hard about if we don't see more than one kill a night as the game progresses. It's just one part of the mix today.

[fferyllt]

Yo, whattup.

What are your thoughts about day 1?

[fferyllt]

@Vinkah I'm not sure whether you finished your line of questioning to me. Did you have something more you wanted to discuss or ask?

[fferyllt]

Wicked, the reason I ended up leaving my vote on Anen is because I wanted to find a better place for my vote instead of just unvoting, but got distracted by work before I could find it.

You've entered day 2 in a similarly uncommited manner.

[fferyllt]

layla hasn't posted in a week.

I have no idea what's become of my layla-read.

[fferyllt]

Sorry, was caught up, and I'll get to this either late tonight or tomorrow morning.

where'd you go?

[fferyllt]

sweet! have you been following the game, SS?

[fferyllt]

Vote: Boonskies

[fferyllt]

brainfart.

VOTE: Boonskies

[fferyllt]

pieguy what's your nacho read?

[fferyllt]

pieguy what's your nacho read?

town

his end-of-D1 posting was solid enough that I don't have any problem with him. there was also his reaction to the Gnomeo v. Tammy situation that happened earlier, which I thought looked town in that he picked up on what I was seeing re: Gnomeo before I said it in the game thread.

I don't mind the fact that he left his vote on Anen at D1 end, either; I think just about nothing can beat him promising to catch up and hammer Lia in Over the Garden Wall and then blatantly not having a chance to do it before the deadline hit. and it didn't look like scum leaving a vote on a wagon while trying to push elsewhere; he was pretty clearly attempting to refine the read and he had no other scum reads he was attempting to push. the logic there is consistent.

I'm considering following you onto Boon. do you make anything of Cheetory's posts towards Anen at D1 end?

I don't know what to make of cheetory's posts toward Anen. It felt like he grabbed hold of that example game where Anen was town and I saw it immediately when I replaced in for more than it was worth, especially given the various comments about Anen having a good scum game. Was disappointed cheetory replaced out because I was hoping to get a better grip today. TAmmy's comments about we the purple combined with not liking Boonskies' entrance pushed me into voting there.

[fferyllt]

I don't know what to make of cheetory's posts toward Anen. It felt like he grabbed hold of that example game where Anen was town and I saw it immediately when I replaced in for more than it was worth, especially given the various comments about Anen having a good scum game. Was disappointed cheetory replaced out because I was hoping to get a better grip today. TAmmy's comments about we the purple combined with not liking Boonskies' entrance pushed me into voting there.

I kind of thought Cheetory's posts at the end were town bc I saw where he was coming from with his lines of questioning. I agreed Anen doing nothing but making posts about his wagon would have been an easily fakeable strategy to employ as scum, and I liked the way he was specifically pushing him to answer the questions he had asked him before. it read like he was trying to get Anen to generate legitimate content that would be more difficult to fake as scum. the point about how he played in the game with you I don't make as much out of; I think his point there was that he as town should see that his play was different rather than calling you scum for saying it was different, not explicitly that he was scum for playing differently.

Boon's entrance was what pinged for me too. I didn't like that he walked in here with only the one read on Wicked and didn't lay out any other reads, and it didn't feel like he was actually trying to give a good explanation for said Wicked read. I want him to get in here and explain specifically what he's talking about there.

I put a lot of stock in "thinking what I'm thinking when I'm thinking it". I probably put even more stock in "goes full forward when I'm slowing down and rethinking".

[fferyllt]

Are we all going to just ignore how forced S-S's response to my post was, and how RC isn't reading any of my posts, yet has seemed unsure of me?

Or..

or...watching things develop without jostling.

[fferyllt]

that's jousting.

[fferyllt]

I don't know why I'm "slow playing". I don't feel introspective enough to try to isolate causes. I'm just going to play the game and see where the thread takes me.

I feel like pieguyn could be scum. When I actually read her iposts I feel like her points and considerations are coming from a town mindset, but they are so detached feeling. Very contained. If there's effort toward refining reads and finding scum, it's not apparent. It's incredibly low key.

And I feel like this description and impression I have of her play in this game is being echoed by you, Vinkah, about my play.

[fferyllt]

refining reads, isn't really the right word for what I feel is missing. I can think of several examples where she's done that. It just feels like none of the refinement is pushing in the direction of scumreading.

[fferyllt]

i dont particularly intend to catch up. it could happen though. i have noticed that i thrive in interaction more than i do on reading the archives. if there is a bit of relevant info you want me to consider, shoot me a page number or a post link.

hi.

[fferyllt]

refining reads, isn't really the right word for what I feel is missing. I can think of several examples where she's done that. It just feels like none of the refinement is pushing in the direction of scumreading.

I don't really have anything for scum reads. this is definitely a "too many town reads" type of game.

What does knowing some of your reads are wrong do to your feel of the gamestate?

[fferyllt]

SS has yet to towntell.

have you played with SS before?

[fferyllt]

I think I want to see notsci and pieguyn talk that out.

I'd like to hold off a little bit before I say much about SS. It won't be for long.

[fferyllt]

ffery, what do you think about Wicked?

echo on this question

I've liked wicked's play for the most part. first game with him and I will probably meta him before or during the weekend. I thought day 1 was quite solid and of the players I don't know well, he was my strongest town read. The one thing that pings slightly right now is that he's keeping options open in a game where several players are having trouble developing scumreads.

[fferyllt]

ffery - how much of your alt-guess of vinkah playing into your town read there?

My guess has firmed up to an assumption. I'll be extremely surprised if I'm wrong.

My guess being correct kinda explains the paranoia he has about my play this game. It's a fairly small slice of games we've shared (including what I'm aware he followed but didn't play). I weigh if the paranoia feels overdone once in a while. So far it feels ok.

[fferyllt]

It caught my attention, too.

[fferyllt]

relevant: if someone was scum that didnt have the capacity to make an informed push, why not just float for a few days on the "sorry i dont have time to catch up" line. why bother with a fos?

What have you learned?

[fferyllt]

EBWOP: How would she warn her partners?

I don't think it would be that hard. In fact I think if I were scum, some of the things I actually did here in this game would probably get partner attention.

[fferyllt]

EBWOP: How would she warn her partners?

I don't think it would be that hard. In fact I think if I were scum, some of the things I actually did here in this game would probably get partner attention.

Like what?

Is this something you would feel obligated to do as scum?

In this scenario he's' town and I'm scum?

If I were scum, I would have mentioned there was a distinct possibility he'd replace into the game if there was pregame talk, and there almost always is. So, as scum I would have mentioned it, and also what I know of his start play.

The distinct possibility is due to my sending him a pm about this game while it was still in sign-ups.

But, assuming I didn't do that for some reason, I would have greeted S-S similarly to how I did here, and I would probably have made a bigger deal of waving off questions about SS than I did when vincah or whoever it was asked me about him.

S-S knows what my meta-expectations are, so I'd do my best to dance through that with the right mix of cageyness and hands-off. In the previous game we played I noticed something of a lack of scummy-entrance/sort reactions, and I eventually brought it up.

If he's scum, that knowledge of my expectations might have influenced him to make this sort of entrance. But, as any alignment he likes to keep people a little off balance, so I'm not sure that's how he'd have approached it.

he's an experienced player at EM. In the last game we played, when he and Regfan exchanged resumes, Regfan was duly impressed.

If I were scum, I'd have my fingers crossed that he was replacing in as scum.

I hope he's town.

[fferyllt]

ffery what kind of response were you expecting from me to pie?

I didn't really have expectations. It was more about seeing the interaction and trying to read you both from it.

I feel like my townread has been shored up a bit on you. I also liked the way pieguy confronted you.

[fferyllt]

he's an experienced player at EM. In the last game we played, when he and Regfan exchanged resumes, Regfan was duly impressed.

Oh my.

I think at this point I would rather wagon notscience than soft-spoken, if for no other reason than I think soft-spoken is going to be giving better tells as time goes on. I do phrase that intently though because it needs to be a wagon and not just a vote because I want pressure.

Wicked, apologies if you've answered this once or a million times already, but why is notscience in your townpile?

p-edit: why is your townread shored up, ffery?

Two reasons. That he didn't try to bullshit a reason why pie is scummy when pie confronted him. And because he called it correctly about what looked off in S-S' reaction to his fake claim.

[fferyllt]

it's a good thing. the town read sinking in wet sand in the first place? not so much.

[fferyllt]

I can stop townreading you if you prefer.

[fferyllt]

It does. I've felt that way a few times in my mafia career.

[fferyllt]

What made Cheetory your strongest town read?

[fferyllt]

also anen?

[fferyllt]

The ease (and reasoning) of your townread on me is something of a contrast to my hydra in the forest fire game. though iirc you were more concerned about Nacho's posts than mine, you never had us as solid town.

[fferyllt]

Okay. SS's opening was annoying. This is mildly infuriating.

Are you planning to play the game, Boon?

I'm playing hard, or hardly playing. You decide!

I have!

[fferyllt]

Who are you talking about?

[fferyllt]

I just liked his lines of questioning. They looked natural in terms of picking up a concern, pushing for data, and then moving on if answers were satisfactory. The little flashes of irritability at first caught my eye, but they feel consistent and data-driven, not the sorts of things that scum tend to get frustrated about. The only thing that really pinged was that he seemed to be leaving his options open, not putting down reads, especially townreads. When I pointed that out he responded with a list of players he thought were town, almost instantly iirc.

[fferyllt]

he worries me.

[fferyllt]

have your thoughts about Boonskiies changed?

[fferyllt]

My freefloating paranoia will infect this entire player list.

[fferyllt]

the thing is, I don't think boonskiies is going to catch up.

[fferyllt]

I feel like he's not going to play the game.

I've only played with him once that I can think of. Didn't look anything like this.

[fferyllt]

anyway. hope I'm wrong regardless of his alignment.