Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[Tammy]

Okay I have caught up.

I think I have an early town read on ffery, which while I've tended to town read her by mid day one, I don't tend to town read her this early but I guess I could be making up for being stupidly paranoid of her in forest fire? not science feels townish but I thought he had stopped with his town reading thing so I'm a little confused. Implosion and Layla both look town.

As does RedCoyote, both because of nacho feeling okay about him and because of his entry. I kinda would expect nacho to town read him today anyway as I think he'd be more accurate in the coming days.

Gnomeo - Is that a serious vote on me? If it is, who do you think I'm manipulating? How and Why?

Okay this was planned to be a more insightful post but I'm headed out the door unexpectedly. So tomorrow.

Gnomes - read the entirety of the bolded.

Then read what I said prior:

Tammy I know you said you don't have thoughts on anybody, so it feels kinda dumb asking for your thoughts on someone, but I'd like to know what you think about RedCoyote and the reactions he's getting the last couple pages.

I have a couple markers for his town game that wouldn't manifest themselves until later, if they do at all. Beyond that I have absolutely no clue how to read him. Last swag town we both suspected each other and I wrote the hugest, most hilariously wrong case on him, and it took Nacho replacing in and laughing at how wrong I was to wrench me out of my tunnel. We've had minimal experience since then.

Nacho didn't seem to have a problem with his entrance, so I really don't.

I do know he prefers scum and that is where he feels his strengths lie. I think he's a bit more image conscious as scum, so I'm not sure he'd start out the way he has a scum? That doesn't feel super strong and I was interested in how he comes back. I do think he's starting to get on edge about some playstyles/behaviors that he thinks are detrimental or disrespectful to the game lately and maybe that's where the policy lynch idea has come from? In bees he gave a few pretty decent rants about some frustrations.

I find some of the reactions a bit weird. Not sciences make sense as it was directed toward him. Feeling weird about pixel guy doing the wagon analysis already and calling it low hanging fruit. Those are really the only ones that stuck out to me.

I just woke up and I think I'm going to go for a walk because damn it's beautiful outside. I'll get around to actually reading the thread in a bit.

Then if you still have a question about my stance on that read, go for it, but I think it's really clear.

[Tammy]

You're suggesting he can't be town read that fast. He'd made five posts by that point. What makes you think that I can't read Nacho quickly if you can?

Please actually answer this question.

When you assumed that I was town reading Nacho, you claimed that I couldn't have a read on Nacho so soon and it looked like buddying. But then you claimed that you usually have a town read on him after on,y a couple posts.

If you think he's so easy to read that you can town read him off a couple of posts, why do you think I cant?

(Please note: this question has nothing to do with my read on Nacho and your claims of whether or not he's readable. Because if you think he's easily readable after a couple posts then your claim that I'm buddying because I can't read him after a couple posts is really disingenuous.)

[Gnomeo]

Okay, that'll do for now.

I'm not saying he can't be town read that fast. It's just that in this game, at that point, I felt like it was very unlikely and that your read was forced(that's why I accused you of buddying).

I am still not convinced of Nacho being town, but his latest posts have improved. So have yours, by the way. I'm actually inclined to move my vote, but I'm only seeing implosion as a possible vote, and I'm not convinced I'm reading him very well.

[Empire]

DAY 1, VOTECOUNT 12

Aneninen (3)

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Vinkah, Layla, Wickedestjr

Tammy (2)

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Gnomeo, Cheetory6

Cheetory6 (1)

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Nachomamma8

Gnomeo (1)

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notscience

RedCoyote (1)

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pieguyn

pieguyn (1)

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implosion

notscience (1)

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RedCoyote

Vinkah (1)

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Aneninen

Nachomamma8 (1)

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Tammy

Not Voting (1)

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fferyllt

Mod Notes

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Aneninen is V/LA until Thursday.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch! Deadline is on July 30th at 12:00 PM EST or in (expired on 2015-07-30 12:00:00).

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: Cheetory

His vote for Tammy feels weak/disingenuous. I don't see the scum motivation for Tammy's "unreasonably angry" reaction. This point seems off considering I had the exact opposite reaction from reading it. Also, I think it's hypocritical of Cheetory to call Tammy out for this considering he has exhibited some similar frustration this game. He's been getting frustrated with players for saying he isn't as obvtown as he usually is, but IIRC, ffery is the only player that has said this, she mentioned this a long time ago, and she isn't even voting/scumreading him for it. It's quite possible I'm missing something, but I don't think I am - who is making you frustrated about this, Cheetory?

His line of questioning in 358 also feels strange if he really scum reads Tammy right now.

Anen saying that him being wagoned == scum is protecting itself feels overdramatic to me.
Gonna try to ISOdive him too.

Did this ever happen?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm actually pretty fucking satisfied with Gnomeo's posts on the last few pages. waiting to see where this goes for the time being.

Can you explain what you liked from his last few posts?

Because I'm getting genuine vibes from a lot of places and I'm constantly trying to resist the urge to townread most of them because I know the caliber of scumplay in this game is probably going to be higher than average.

Something that I actually learned from a rough pair of newbie games is that you don't need to worry about solving the whole game at once, and that sometimes taking it one read at a time can shake those hidden scum out of the bushes.

I know I'm townreading scum currently. I know that I will likely be townreading scum tomorrow. For now, the only thing I have to combat that is by being open to engaging town reads when they skip and be open to backing off scumreads early even when it leaves me nowhere to go.

It feels like you're talking to Cheetory as if he's town (even though you vote him later). Do you always do that?

I'm not saying he can't be town read that fast. It's just that in this game, at that point,

I felt like it was very unlikely

and that your read was forced(that's why I accused you of buddying).

Why is that?

[Wickedestjr]

ffery

, who's scum?

Gnomeo

, have you ever played with scum-Nacho? How good are you at reading him when he's scum?

implosion

, what are you doing with your vote?

[Wickedestjr]

I removed my vote from Anen, but I will happily return my vote if he doesn't answer my questions. I will ask them again here and this is the last time I'm asking;

1. Why did you vote for Vinkah instead of RC when your point against Vinkah revolved around the assumption that RC is scum?

2. Who has called "every single thing you do" suspicious?

3. Are you town reading everyone that has ignored or town read you?

4. Do you usually see early bandwagons immediately go to lynch?

5. What do you mean when you say you have no allies?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm starting to think Vinkah might be scum. It feels like he's just been coasting ever since the Layla/ffery RVS conversation ended and attention was off him. Granted, it's hard to be doing things when your vote is VLA, but I can't remember seeing much interest from him as of late.

ffery

, can you tell me the name of your best recent scum game? (Non-hydra, please)

[fferyllt]

ffery

, who's scum?

wicked, I want more data from a few players. I have townreads and an assortment of question marks I haven't really been able to pursue during the last couple of days. I've read through gnomeo's isos in his completed games. I want Nacho and Tammy to talk about their game with him because his posts here so far best match that game in terms of tone, depth, and development.

I want to see more from pieguy. she's being kind of cagey at the moment, which makes it hard to follow her thoughts about the game.

Aneninen needs to get come back, engage, answer questions, and do a little more than yell about his wagon.

I thought about voting pie yesterday, but decided I'd rather learn more about her thoughts on the game before deciding where to vote.


Re scum games, I don't have a good recent scum game. My most recent non-hydra scum game is a newbie I replaced into: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60510

A game that probably represents the best I'm currently capable of as scum is http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=37251. It's a hydra game, but I made by far the majority of the posts. I was selkies.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, that's fine.

And thanks for those games, I will probably look at them tonight

[notscience]

My b, thought I posted yesterday.

I will be here in a bit.

[implosion]

riiiiight...
so when did you decide this?

I don't remember exactly when. I'll often tend to skim games multiple times.

I feel like my reads have been slowly (read: quickly) decaying since Anen vanished. I actually have no idea who I want to vote for right now (which should also answer Wicked). My vote right now is doing nothing and the only thing that I feel like it could do that I could potentially want is it being on Anen but like I said I'd prefer he have less pressure atm.

If someone (really anyone who feels like it) wants to give me their opinion on like, a #1 thing I should look at/reevaluate right now, that'd be nice.

[Nachomamma8]

i) I'm getting a lot shit about not living up to expectations of my towngame lately which has been frustrating. I'm trying hard to not be a dick about it, but every time someone says "Cheet isn't as obvtown as he has been in the past" it makes me tear at my hair a little bit when it's so early on in the game.

While this sentiment makes sense in general, it doesn't make sense in response to the comments that have been put in thread so far: the post where you accuse Tammy/Ffery of throwing shade at your meta in particular seems pretty off when neither player (but especially not Tammy) has really used that as leverage for a Cheetory!scum push.

I also don't understand why if you're just frustrated at being held up to a standard that's simply too unreasonable, you're responding like this. You keep saying you had a slow start in Signs and Void (which implies an expectation of your play to be as obvtown as it was there isn't unreasonable) instead of more honestly stating that you just don't want the two to be compared.

[Nachomamma8]

ii) I have openly admitted that the point about PoE pool was something that felt off but that it was a weak point, I don't understand how you're pretending like I'm being confident there. I voted for Tammy because I wanted to draw attention to what felt like unreasonably strong anger in response to questioning something reasonable. Maybe I missed some kind of context there, but I did want to talk about it and I think it's pretty shitty that you're trying to frame it as me trying to get Tammy lynched and just throw shade at her when I literally asked for people to talk with me about that.

The PoE pool has the same problem as the "angrier response" point in that you're comparing this game to signs and void on a very surface level. I think you would avoid doing that if town considering how annoying you found the Signs and Void comparisons to be yourself.

And also, you made a case on Tammy. You voted here. Regardless of whether the phrase "talk at me" came after or not, it still seemed like a case and a push and I don't think it's unreasonable to interpret it as such.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, can you talk about your experience playing with Gnomeo?

Mmmm. I don't remember that HoH game very much. I would say I draw experiences from interacting with his main, but I'm not 100% I have that exactly right, so I'll make it a project in the future to refresh my memory and go PM diving.

[Nachomamma8]

I was thinking Nacho was scum,

Why did you have a scum read on me before?

[Nachomamma8]

I think scum would be more likely to want to drop this kind of read entirely instead of essentially continuing to go "nup, fuck you" like he's doing here.

It's also very possible that he just didn't really know what to do to drop it smoothly.

[Nachomamma8]

I think scum would be more likely to want to drop this kind of read entirely instead of essentially continuing to go "nup, fuck you" like he's doing here.

It's also very possible that he just didn't really know what to do to drop it smoothly.

Or not even this, I don't think it's uncommon for scum to do continue pushing a target they are getting heat for pushing just because it's a comfortable push.

[Nachomamma8]

It feels like you're talking to Cheetory as if he's town (even though you vote him later). Do you always do that?

Sometimes. I don't really think that quote is an example of that.

[Wickedestjr]

I actually have no idea who I want to vote for right now (which should also answer Wicked).

That does answer my question, but I was hoping to learn why you voted pie in the first place. I can understand if you don't feel strongly about it, but I haven't seen anything telling from that slot. Why did you choose to vote pie in particular?

If someone (really anyone who feels like it) wants to give me their opinion on like, a #1 thing I should look at/reevaluate right now, that'd be nice.

I think you should look at Cheeto's vote for Tammy. I'm curious what your thoughts on Cheeto are.

[Wickedestjr]

I was thinking Nacho was scum,

Why did you have a scum read on me before?

Until a few days ago, it just felt like you were trying to fly under the radar. I don't remember your initial posts feeling very confrontational and you were voting for somebody (Gnomeo) that wasn't posting much. It was not how I would have expected you to start off the game if you are town.

It feels like you're talking to Cheetory as if he's town (even though you vote him later). Do you always do that?

Sometimes. I don't really think that quote is an example of that.

I thought it was - you gave him scum hunting advice (which is only relevant for him if he's town).

[Vinkah]

i realize ive sort of slacked off recently. the only really good read i feel confident in pursuing is Anen but he's not here at the moment. outside of {Wicked, ffery, RC, Tammy, implosion} everyone else is just murky water that im just having a hard time sorting at the moment.

wouldn't mind a kick in the rear towards a direction.

[pieguyn]

You are claiming not to townread Nacho, but still you're townreading RC because Nacho feels good about him. That does not make sense. You still haven't explained this.

You have claimed not townreading him earlier. which is it?

this is the essence of where Gnomeo's scum read on Tammy came from. I disagree with both of these points, but I think both of them are entirely reasonable. the first one essentially amounts to a playstyle difference: he doesn't see why someone would sheep someone else's read unless they were town reading them. I buy that he thought Tammy was just "following" Nacho's read (the post this came from was 176, and I think it's a reasonable interpretation of it keeping in mind he missed 148), and from there, it makes sense he would assume she was town reading Nacho.

I think a lot of his posts make a lot more sense with this in mind. the logic he's pushing is consistent. there was nothing town in Nacho's opening posts - and if he thought Tammy was attempting to manipulate Nacho, it would have been correct to call bullshit on what he perceived as Tammy town reading him.

the second one I think in particular explains a lot of why he wasn't interested in people with meta experience with Tammy telling him he was wrong. he thinks he caught Tammy BS'ing a read on Nacho in order to manipulate him, which would be a strong point if it was correct. thus, he doesn't want to drop it unless he's sure that's not what she's doing. he doesn't care about people's meta experience with Tammy because it's entirely unrelated to what his point actually was (that Tammy had town read Nacho before it would have made any sense to). keeping this in mind, I don't *really* mind his attitude here - it comes off similarly to, for instance, someone getting pissed off on principle because someone else stepped into their line of questioning, which is a perfectly fine attitude to have. it might make sense as scum stretching to justify a fake read, but I don't think by any means it's explicitly *more* likely to come from scum.

in general, I think most of the reasoning he's pushing here happened as a result of him misunderstanding Tammy's posts as opposed to any scum-motivated reason.

awww. Here I was thinking we were having a conversation.

I liked this. it reads like town indignated that people are handwaving his thoughts re: Tammy, which fits with him not liking people stepping into his line of questioning.

I'm starting to feel better about you now that you're actually trying to talk to me. I have skipped some posts because I've seen you all discussing games I was not a part of and I have no idea what to make of that. Your next post is what I was looking for after my first post. Unfortunately it took 15 pages and multiple people questioning me to get an answer. I don't really see why, to be honest. What should have happened is me questioning something that stuck out, you answering and me considering if I'm satisfied with that answer or not.

this came after I first started saying Gnomeo's posts were town, but I also liked this. at this point, it was pretty obvious the entire shitstorm that happened was due to a misunderstanding (Tammy sheeping Nacho's RC read vs. her balancing it out with her own read). this is the correct reaction: step back and reevaluate. I don't get the impression he was pushing this based on convenience; if it was, I think he would have been more likely to back off when he started getting blowback for it or continue pushing it anyway.

[fferyllt]

What are your thoughts about RC?