Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)
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Ah.
That kind of self-commentary is very characteristic of Tammytown from my albeit limited experience with her. I'm sure she's gotten better at faking it as scum over the past year. But it seems genuine enough to me, implying that there is a legitimate reason to believe that she is town based on her first post without stating that reason in that way feels like an awkward thing to fake as scum.-
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I'm happy with my anen vote/the anen wagon.
As a general rule about RedCoyote, he's scummy. Always, in every game. If Nacho has a reputation for reading him then I'm willing to sheep Nacho until like day 3ish WRT him.
There's a good town core for now in {me, Tammy, Layla, ffery, Vinkah} allowing notscience as well if ffery says so.
Wicked is also a person that I remember just seeing as generally scummy when he was town. His play so far vaguely reminds me of his town play in the distant past. I decently like Nacho's point for town-RC in 154.
That already puts the lynch pool in my mind right now at {Anen, Gnomeo, Cheetory, pieguy, Nacho}.
pieguy is saying a lot of things, and I think I'll probably get a better read in due time. Gut kind of says cheetory is town. We're gonna go with the scumteam as Anen/Gnomeo/Nacho for now.-
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In post 157, notscience wrote:Also this whole "everyone trust nacho's read on RC" thing is giving me the heebiejeebies
Its not so much the people saying it are its just like "inb4 scumteam whiteknights each other"
IMO it's not supposed to be a long-term thing, more of an "eh, we can put resolving this off until later" thing. Plus I actually do like nacho's reason that he gave, I'm not just blindly following. RC is just... idk. I don't remember if I've played with him extensively outside of swagtown but his posts have often just lacked any radiation of towntells like some others *cough Tammy cough* and most players in general.-
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Gnomeo wrote:I probably shouldn't have signed up for this game. But I when I saw the names, I wanted in. Should be about a week before I'll have more time though. I'll try and post as much as I can.
Mkay. Your post on this page is a good start.
Re: Anen, a few things. Decrying the wagon that haunts you and ignoring everyone unrelated to the wagon is more of a scum reaction than a town reaction. There are also some very awkward (though not necessarily scummy) statements in his most recent post:
Even if you don't believe me now, you will do so after my flip.
Why will we? Because you'll flip town? Just because you're town, doesn't mean we'll share your opinion on your wagon.
Generally speaking, it's very clear for me that my wagon gained momentum because some scums wanted to find a player to jump on who has no real allies in the game.
Why is this clear to you? It's only two days into the game. Wagons can gain momentum at this stage for all sorts of stupid reasons, from scum wanting an early wagon on town, to town wanting an early wagon on anybody, to new players happening to randomly vote together, etc.
This conclusion is pulled out of thin air. It's a purely defensive reaction to the wagon, almost an OMGUS-like reaction. And it ties hand-in-hand with the next line in his post...
Just look at the reasoning along those votes! Just look at the post amount I've made so far. Is it really legit?
Yes! In fact, there are at least *seven* people who have either voted you or expressed suspicion! You know for a fact that many of them must be town, and townies expressing suspicion towards you are doing so for genuine (if possibly not correct) reasons. So stop throwing broad suspicion on the people on your wagon. You should be able to read people based on things other than just their behavior towards you.-
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In post 211, Aneninen wrote:Wicked.
You must have realized that I'm without any allies in this game, however, plenty of players are after me because of little to none things.
At this point noone I think would care about my thoughts. If I lived till Tomorrow, it won't change. The scums will keep me around as an easy mislynch as far as they can. Unless I get investigated.
Again. Compare the sheer amount of my content with the amount of votes and fos-es. Many of those arrived while I was not posting at all.
Of course things like that should have been pointed out by someone else and you may believe them.
Also. I'm from mobile and off soon.
We're experienced players.
The game is literally two days in.
If you act town it is more than possible that the wagon on you could dissolve in a matter of hours. I don't give a shit if you don't have "allies" right now, that's because your opening was not very townish. If you're town, act like it.-
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@implosion, you’re sheeping Nacho’s read on RC but you think Nacho’s scum?
Two things are at work here.
One, there's a low a priori probability that they're both scum assuming a single 3-player scumteam (11/13 choose 3, or about 4%. That probability is a bit higher for any given person if they assume that they are town but w/e.) Sofor the time beinguntil things become clearer I'm somewhat willing to sheep the opinion of someone who is known to be good at reading someone that I know I am bad at reading.
Two, I liked Nacho's reasoning. That reasoning may be valid even if Nacho does happen to be scum with RC as town.
I also don't actually really have an opinion on Nacho yet, that me calling the scumteam thing was mostly sarcasm.-
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Layla wrote:I liked Gnomeo's 192. While felt abrasive, it felt town because it reads like he isn't trying to forge the read even though the tammy accusation looked weird.
I am somewhat inclined to agree. I kind of absentmindedly voted gnomeo because of the competing wagons thing and then realized i didn't feel that way so strongly anymore.
I do want to look at pieguy more closely though. Possibly tonight.-
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Also, Layla, with respect to a couple of the things you're calling people out for, I need to be convinced of the potential for scum motivation behind them (not saying it isn't there, just that I want to be convinced more.) Specifically Tammy not switching her vote (although I'm not sure if you're saying that there's scum motivation behind that at all), and the Anen flail as a whole. I agree it looks like he's just throwing mud rather than trying to find scum and as I type this sentence I'm actually convincing myself. meeeh. Idk. I have a bad habit of always wanting to townread people for whatever they're doing under pressure no matter what it is. Idk. I do want to see what Anen does with less pressure though now that he's essentially accepted his lynch. I think it'll be decently telling.-
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Gnomeo wrote:If it wasn't a good post, then why didn't you want to vote me anymore?
Eh. I guess I did think it was a slightly townish post, but that isn't what I meant when I was saying it was a good start? I think I'm just phrasing things poorly. Iirc when I said it was a good start I didn't have a good read on the post itself yet, and later decided it was townish.-
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Gnomeo wrote: riiiiight...
so when did you decide this?
I don't remember exactly when. I'll often tend to skim games multiple times.
I feel like my reads have been slowly (read: quickly) decaying since Anen vanished. I actually have no idea who I want to vote for right now (which should also answer Wicked). My vote right now is doing nothing and the only thing that I feel like it could do that I could potentially want is it being on Anen but like I said I'd prefer he have less pressure atm.
If someone (really anyone who feels like it) wants to give me their opinion on like, a #1 thing I should look at/reevaluate right now, that'd be nice.-
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I chose to vote pie because pie seemed like the kind of player who should have been towntelling harder but wasn't. I then intended to look into that more to see if there was actually anything to that, and neglected to do so/every time I started things just looked null.
Idk. I read Cheeto as town. I think his talking about himself is very genuine, and some of the points that have been criticized for inconsistency (like Wicked criticizing the "i want to scream right now" line) felt very consistent to me. He said he was going to try to be patient at the beginning of the post, wrote a giant-ass post, then posted another post 25 minutes later. That feels consistent.
The way he's talking about how he's going to towntell while taking ownership of the fact that he's being read as scummy reads to me as being genuine. I don't think he's scum.-
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In post 485, fferyllt wrote:where the hell are scum hiding in ths player list.
that is a god damn good question.
notscience is one of the people who I never really had an actual good reason to townread, and I'm still making up my mind on pieguy (although surprise surprise, my initial reading of pie's cheeto arguments was null...) but I at least have theoretical room between the two of them I guess and Anen for all of my real townreads to be town unless I'm forgetting someone and actually have more room.-
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In post 488, pieguyn wrote:In post 483, implosion wrote:Idk. I read Cheeto as town. I think his talking about himself is very genuine, and some of the points that have been criticized for inconsistency (like Wicked criticizing the "i want to scream right now" line) felt very consistent to me. He said he was going to try to be patient at the beginning of the post, wrote a giant-ass post, then posted another post 25 minutes later. That feels consistent.
The way he's talking about how he's going to towntell while taking ownership of the fact that he's being read as scummy reads to me as being genuine. I don't think he's scum.
I don't agree with this. I think it's likely he would start playing like this regardless of what his alignment here is: town-him would realize he's having an off game and step back, scum-him would see a bunch of people pushing him and go into damage control mode. taking ownership of the fact you're being read as scummy is a really easy thing to fake.
I'm not saying he might not do this as scum. I'm saying I think the way he's doing it reads as genuine in tone, consistent, etc. Sure it could be faked but it doesn't look like it is to me.-
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I mean, it's definitely not just you two. I felt that way, and my sentiments were mimicked by Vinkah as well in 447.
I think the last game I played with this kind of player list (that is, swagtown pt 1) I was easily engaged because I had a very solid scumread who I pushed consistently for pretty much the entirety of day one until they were lynched. This time, I think it all sort of goes back to Anen. I was engaged because I was pushing/interacting with Anen. Anen disappeared. My engagement whittled away.
In a sense it's almost less weird to be disengaged in this kind of crowd. It's so easy to just get lost in a sea of people who are good enough to towntell actively as either alignment towntelling as both alignments. I remember (just because it's so strongly in my head) the last day of swagtown, when we were trying to track down the last scum (who wound up being fonz), it was really difficult to stay focused because every lead kept going to shit.-
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It's probably just time for this to happen.
VOTE: Anen
That's L-1.
Idk what to make of Anen's most recent post, but I feel like this is just the correct lynch at this point given the claim and ~apathy~. I think more information to work with will help fix the overarching feeling of meh that has been discussed.
Vinkah mentioned agreeing with me on this, but I'm also not sure why there's still speculation about multiball, although I guess it's mostly just Anen's post. I don't feel like we can get information about the setup from a broad feeling of the day dragging on or whatever. Good scum will be able to fake real scumhunting regardless of whether or not it's multiball.-
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I think my reads at the moment look something like this.
Town: ffery; vinkah; tammy.
Also town, but somewhat less strong: wicked; nacho; cheeto; redcoyote.
Not quite as strong a townread as the previous category but I don't really want to put him in the next category: gnomeo.
Either never was town or not as strong as before: layla; anen; pie; notscience. Although I might be able to be convinced to put pie in a category higher. Maybe.
I've been spiraling into a lurking spree. I do still want an anen lynch. The lack of a counterwagon is just indicative of how indecisive this town is; no one seems to have a lasting scumread that garners significant attention to the point where it becomes a long-lasting wagon. This is further impacted by the lurking question marks of Layla and notscience.-
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Have we played together? I played a game that you modded back in the day (in which I was scum), but I don't remember any games we played.
Wicked I haven't looked at as closely as I probably should but he's in vinkah's top tier and what i've read closely looks pretty good so I'm willing to put him in the town category.
I would describe your play (ffery) so far as very stereotypically obvtown. You could be scum playing really well in theory but you've just been giving logical thought processes, have been actively facilitating scumhunting amongst everyone, have been consistent enough, etc.
I kind of skimmed (or barely skimmed) nacho's posts since he made 9 of them in a row... if he made a case on ffery then i'll go back and look a bit more.-
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Oh god those are old. I don't remember those games at all except hunter, and you apparently died n1 there. I also went to page 4/5 of your topics list looking for games, and all of them are apparently on page 5 <_<.
The only salient point I can glean from Anen is basically ffery is acting differently when she should be acting similarly in response to similar play, but similar ≠ identical, etc.-
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In post 838, Wickedestjr wrote:In post 833, Soft-spoken wrote:
in every game ive played on mafiascum, i found an opening post that made my gut go nuts. sometimes i ended up TRing them later but it was scum every time
this is that post
VOTE: Aneninen
You need to know of any claimed night actions, but you don't need to check the OP for dead players and alignments? Hmm...
Are you scum?
This is actually a pretty decent point. Asking for some information but not looking at related easy-to-find information displays a lot of incongruousness.-
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In post 841, notscience wrote:Are we all going to just ignore how forced S-S's response to my post was, and how RC isn't reading any of my posts, yet has seemed unsure of me?
Or..
I don't think his reaction looked that forced in light of his opening giving a view of a player very centered around wanting to surface known information, or something like that. But I am willing to wagon him over it. If others are. Or if it leads to any chance of an actual goddamn wagon.
VOTE: Soft-Spoken-
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turns out
TURNS OUT
when a wagon is forming on you
and several people have agreed that things you've done are scummy
"this logic fails very hard" is not a valid defense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So please, do spell it out for stupid ol' Wicked and I, and feel free to facedesk in the process.-
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@RC I looked at your vinkah post when it was posted, just went back and looked at it again, and I don't think I see the post you quoted as being as disingenuous as you do. I also do personally just tend to focus more on posts that give me townvibes than posts that give me scumvibes (granted that's mostly because the former is much much more common but I digress).
SS has yet to towntell.-
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Tammy wrote:do you have enough experience with SS to know when he town tells?
To Tammy and whoever else asked something like this (ffery I think): that's not what I meant, I just meant to draw a comparison between him and the feeling that everyone is towntelling.
Tammy wrote:What don't you like about the Boon wagon?
I thought cheeto was town.
SS wrote:tammy was rather waffly. hmmmm
Now, I'm not going to say that Tammy is the *most* waffly player that I know.
But I will say that her playstyle goes well with syrup.
SS wrote:i always open games in a superficially scummy manner to try and attract a bad wagon. in fact, in our last game ffer was suspicious of me because i didnt.
:eyeroll:
Tammy wrote:Unfortunately you have that pompous ass play style in which you decide to act scummy as fuck to trap people who think your scummy ass behavior is scummy like oh i acted like scum to trap people who will think i'm scum. it makes things unpleasant and frustrating as fuck.
yeeep
Tammy wrote:Implosion is probably scum and I don't want to see it which is
Nope. Sadly. Ish. I really was hoping to roll a town role pm in this game when I saw the player list but I feel like I would be enjoying this more as scum with all of the general opacity.
I will be more engaged in this game next week, with decent confidence. This week is just really damn hard. But for now I still don't see anything from SS that strongly makes me think town (the self-referential stuff does but only weakly). I also do want to pressure notscience more. The response to pie feels like it leaves a lot to be desired and I'd like to see what pie thinks.-
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he's an experienced player at EM. In the last game we played, when he and Regfan exchanged resumes, Regfan was duly impressed.
Oh my.
I think at this point I would rather wagon notscience than soft-spoken, if for no other reason than I think soft-spoken is going to be giving better tells as time goes on. I do phrase that intently though because it needs to be a wagon and not just a vote because I want pressure.
Wicked, apologies if you've answered this once or a million times already, but why is notscience in your townpile?
p-edit: why is your townread shored up, ffery?-
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Well bleh. 1024 is townish.
Idk. Some people have made cases or points on people being scum but very few of those have really been convincing to me. I more want people to give me reasons why the towntells that I (or others) have seen in their chosen scumread are bad. Like vinkah for instance.
Like honestly there's a part of me that actually wants to be convinced that vinkah is scum. Because one of the biggest towntells I've had from him is that his apathy felt real but I know that's the kind of thing that someone like me would do as scum because I would know it would be something that I would be doing as town. Idk. Maybe vinkah is scum.
Someone convince me of something <_>. I want to hear some sort of in-depth cases or compelling arguments. I feel like most of this game has been back-and-forths that haven't left me feeling much strong. I want something more substantial to digest. Even my strong townreads right now I feel like I could be wrong on.
bleh.-
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In post 764, Nachomamma8 wrote:I have a theory about that kill I really hope is true, but not interested in talking about it now, just making this post for possible future bragging rights.
I feel like it's at the point where it's more salient to ask "why do you think X is town?" rather than "what do you think of X" but I digress.
Two things from nacho make me think town. One is 764. The other is as I mentioned at the time the slew of posts starting at 392 which felt like genuine scumhunting.
He's one of my less solid reads right now I'd say. I think if put on the spot I'd cite anen/ffery/tammy/maybe redcoyote as the ones who at this instant I would say with some nontrivial degree of confidence are town.
But that could change in the next eleven seconds.-
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In post 764, Nachomamma8 wrote:I have a theory about that kill I really hope is true, but not interested in talking about it now, just making this post for possible future bragging rights.
Anen because cheeto.
Cheeto because I feel like looking at all of my townreads most of them are because they felt like they had genuine scumhunting but Cheeto felt like he had genuine reactions. All of his arguing with tammy that I read felt legitimate. It felt like it wasn't being made up and his feelings towards it were genuine and not feelings that he would have genuinely had as scum. His talking about his own game also felt very genuine and unforced. I don't remember the specifics but I remember it happening. In general I think more of the things that I was townreading him for feel like they'd be harder to fake than my other townreads.
It's late so I might be misremembering parts of this or forgetting other reasons but I think that's the gist of it.-
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In post 1040, Soft-spoken wrote:In post 1020, implosion wrote:I do phrase that intently though because it needs to be a wagon and not just a vote because I want pressure.
if you want a pressure wagon, why do you explicitly state it? dontyathink legitimate pressure is nullified if the target knows that the wagon is for pressure? organic wagons give actual pressure
Different actions can elicit different reactions.
I've always found that as both town and scum, having votes on me pressures me (or even annoys me) enough that I want to become more active/refine my reads (either faked or genuine), mostly regardless of the reasons for those votes. I think there's still a psychological aspect of pressure in a wagon even if it's explicitly stated to be pressure because it still can lead to a lynch if you react poorly to it, as typically the people on the wagon will be people who are at that point willing to lynch you.
This is especially true in my towngames. In games where I have been less active or disconnected from the game, a wagon on me usually kicks me enough that I feel the need to do alignment-indicative things. I want notscience to do alignment-indicative things.-
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In post 1047, Wickedestjr wrote:In post 1020, implosion wrote:Wicked, apologies if you've answered this once or a million times already, but why is notscience in your townpile?
I think you’re the first to ask actually.
Reasons why I’m town reading him-
-Early game felt carefree and very relaxed
-I actually like how several/most/all of his votes have been blatantly opportunistic
-His night kill speculation at the start of today felt genuine
-His contributions generally feel like town interest rather than scum obligation, not sure how to explain why I get that feeling
Can you explain why you're town reading that post?
Also, I think the reactions that you’re town reading Cheeto for are exactly the kind of reactions that he would try to fake as scum…
I feel like your first reason for townreading notscience is the kind\ of things that scum in a high-caliber game will HAVE to fake to have any chance at survival. An experienced player in a game with a player list like this will stick out like a sore thumb if they have a meta of acting carefree early in the game but don't. Opportunism feels eh and the nkspec didn't feel particularly genuine to me.
I townread that post from Nacho because he would have essentially had to be innovative to make it as scum. As town it's certainly possible for him to make that post. As scum, he would not have any theories about the night kill (because information), so he would have to explicitly decide to lie about having a theory about it, which seems significantly less likely to happen to me. In general I see posts like that, which scum would have had to go 'out of their way' to make, as pretty strong towntells depending on context/etc.-
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Give me literally any reason whatsoever to and then maybe but still probably not-
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I mean, yes? I don't think I've really genuinely been confident in that kind of player's alignment in a long time (granted I also haven't played mafia in a long time, but etc). "That kind of player" meaning the kind of player who has played enough to get a grip on their own meta. I don't think there really are a whole lot of very strong tells that can be gleaned from the play of a player like that. Ultimately my gut says that that post from nacho would be relatively unlikely to come from scum. It feels like an awkward thing to fake. Like I said, I do have a tendency to townread posts like that in general, but it is a case-by-case basis kind of thing, and my gut says this case reads town. There's an element of wifom, but I think that the thought processes that would have led to that being posted by town nacho in that tone at that time in that context are more likely to have occurred than the thought processes that would have had to occur for it to have been posted by scum nacho.
And most things will be seen as either towntells or scumtells by different people in different metas in different moods... all things considered, I do think that post is more likely to come from town than scum. You can disagree with me and you can try to dissuade me but I still do think that. I don't think it strongly enough to try to actively convince others of it.