Mini-Normal 1713: Mystery Mansion Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Wanderer-nl]

/confirm

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: Performer
I like your vote the least.

[Wanderer-nl]

Also, I don't recognize most of you guys here, I want to do an RQS as well lol.

What is one fm game that stands out in your memory?

Divine Comedy (micro 497) I was town, 9 players, 3 neighbourhoods of 3, scum tracker in ours, and I was able to figure it out with the rest of town which was cool.

Would you say you play as a better mafia scum or townie?

I win more often as scum but I play well as both considering I haven't been misslynched as town yet (except that one time someone faked a cop guilty on me)

What is the strangest fm game you ever played?

WTF mafia (mini 1670) role madness game and I was scum. Massclaim Day 1 caused us to kill the roles that would give us the most trouble but I was paranoid throughout the game because my buddy and me were townread heavily and both invited by the town neighbourizer who then also invited the 3rd party scum (who was a dayvig that shot both my buddies). And that led to a shared win of scum

Have you ever dated anyone from fm?

No and I don't intend to. I dated once in another online game and that ended badly. I don't feel like dating, I'm happy with my cat.

What is a fun fact about yourself?

I'm 30 and I still need my teddy bear

UNVOTE:
I get why you voted now.

I wouldn't call what Slandaar and Accountant are doing 'gambitting' Slandaar's tone matches the one I remember from him in another game where he was town, but it's too soon to make it definite but I'm not scumreading him. I took Accountant's response as jokingly roleplaying, which she herself explained.

@Akarin: How serious were you in 34?

[Wanderer-nl]

I have voted. I unvoted later because I no longer think Performer's vote looks suspicious.

[Wanderer-nl]

I didn't say Slandaar plays like that as town. I said his tone was the same as his tone in another game where he was town. I have no idea how he plays as scum, but right now no reason to suspect him of anything.

[Wanderer-nl]

I like where this is going.

Also making a mental note for 68.

[Wanderer-nl]

I like where this is going.

Also making a mental note for 68.

What exactly do you like about it? Especially considering Davsto appeared to be confused with his vote?

I want to remember it, and not because I like it.

[Wanderer-nl]

And right as I post I get what you mean, sorry about that.

[Wanderer-nl]

67 well you did call it a gambit, but I was too rushed. I can come up with an excuse like 'a wagon will generate reads' but thing is, I didn't think about it that much.

@Akarin: Why are you voting for Silverwolf while she was actually critisizing the votes on Slandaar and Accountant? And you haven't told me yet if you were serious in 34

I'm not sure yet how I feel about Davsto's mix up.

Uh, sorry, I appear to have misplaced my vote, it wasn't silverwolf who voted someone (seemingly seriously) based on the stuff.
UNVOTE:
It was Performer.
VOTE: performer

However, SilverWolf, townreading them by that exchange is also silly.

I just find reaching to vote on a single person more scummy than oddly townreading two people from it.

Excuse me while I facepalm for being silly enough to mix that up.

Are you calling Silverwolf scummy for calling the behaviour of Slandaar and Accountant town?


There is nothing of importance with 68 now but there might be. There also might not be. I don't know yet, but when I do I'll tell you.

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't think that what Slandaar did was alignment indicative at all, and I'm treating it as a null tell on him. I think that SilverWolf's townreading me and Slandaar seems far-fetched, and an experienced player like him should know better. I'm not sure what to think about this, but it's possible buddying.

I think Akarin's analysis pretty much hit the nail on the head as well. I'm currently looking at the votecount and it's three votes for me three for Performer, so I think it makes sense to go ahead and

VOTE: Performer

Performer, if you could justify your vote that would be great.

That's funny because you did vote Slandaar over (apparently) his townclaim. So how did that happen if you didn't think it was alignment indicative?
And Silverwolf never said anything about townreading you and Slandaar, she said you were probably not scum and she had a good enough explanation of thought process of that. I feel like you were looking for a way to get her lynched but then saw you wouldn't and changed to Performer. It's also funny how you ask Performer to justify his vote because 1 he's voting Slandaar and you were there before you voted Performer, and 2 Performer already explained why he voted Slandaar in his 51

VOTE: Accountant

[Wanderer-nl]

@Slandaar: This is the game I mean: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61419 And when I said I think your tone is the same, that's because you sounded as matter-of-factly as I remember you in that game.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Accountant: You did make it seem like a joke with your 28 but what I don't get is why you didn't unvote when an actual wagon started forming and you realized Slandaar shouldn't be wagoned over this. And you also question Jake's vote on Performer (59)so it looks to me like you are trying to change your story.

PEdit: Hi Mario.

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't see 26[/vote] as clearly a joke. [post]28 coming after it makes it a joke though.

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't see 26 as clearly a joke. 28 coming after it makes it a joke though.

Fixed tags..

[Wanderer-nl]

UNVOTE:
I think Mario is trying to see more in that post than there really is, like he was looking for a reason to just jump this wagon. Also too soon for L-1 imo, plenty players haven't posted yet since RVS.

[Wanderer-nl]

UNVOTE:
I think Mario is trying to see more in that post than there really is, like he was looking for a reason to just jump this wagon. Also too soon for L-1 imo, plenty players haven't posted yet since RVS.

This was a reply to Mario's 127 btw..

[Wanderer-nl]

Maybe quoting and bolding the reason for my unvote will finally make people see......

Slandaar and Accountant are both prob not scum. I really don't see scum pulling either of those gambits-claiming town like that or claiming scum like that.

Performer. What exactly were you hoping to learn from those particular RQS questions and how would that help you determine anyone's alignment this game?

Meh, the questions were a way to gauge responses. Or at least learn a little about people here. I'm very new to this website, you never now what you learn about others. Most people seem to be strictly focused on playing the game and treating it super serious, but I'm more into the "fun part."

As for someone claiming to be mafia or town...I played games on another site, where a few people did that early in day 1 and wow, it turned out quite bad for us townies, because they turned out to be something other than the claim.

Much thanks to Accountant for answering, didn't realize you're not an actual accountant

[Wanderer-nl]

If I'm not missing something about Ara claiming Performer thought slandaar was town then most of the wagon is built on sand.
The fact that Accountant and Performer were counterwagons also give me a townread on that slot.

Can you please make this a little more clear because I have no idea what wagon you mean and whom you're townreading.

[Wanderer-nl]

If I'm not missing something about Ara claiming Performer thought slandaar was town then most of the wagon is built on sand.
The fact that Accountant and Performer were counterwagons also give me a townread on that slot.

Can you please make this a little more clear because I have no idea what wagon you mean and whom you're townreading.

So I thought Performer was being voted for townreading Slandaar for a moment, when that didn't happen.
I was townreading Performer.

Ara is Akarin?
Most of what wagon was built on sand?

So what did happen?
Are you still townreading Performer?

Does any of this this change anthing of your read on Accountant?

[Wanderer-nl]

Mario you missed this:

If I'm not missing something about Ara claiming Performer thought slandaar was town then most of the wagon is built on sand.
The fact that Accountant and Performer were counterwagons also give me a townread on that slot.

Can you please make this a little more clear because I have no idea what wagon you mean and whom you're townreading.

So I thought Performer was being voted for townreading Slandaar for a moment, when that didn't happen.
I was townreading Performer.

Ara is Akarin?
Most of what wagon was built on sand?

So what did happen?
Are you still townreading Performer?

Does any of this this change anthing of your read on Accountant?

[Wanderer-nl]

I actually don't like post 177. Expedience does say that he wasn't making null posts, but neither does he justify his lack of making active posts. Clearing away bad ideas to allow new discussion to sprout in its place is important, but you must also contribute to the new discussion. It isn't enough to pull the weeds, you must also water seeds if you want to have a beautiful garden.

As I said in 177, it's unreasonable to accuse someone for what they

haven't

said when they have a total of three serious posts. I understand what All Alone and you have said and intend to contribute to the discussion in future, but I have had few opportunities to do so thusfar.

So, Expedience: what do you think of the mm4 wagon?

I feel that Mario's aggression is excessive, unwarranted, and anti-Town. He looks very hard to find scummy things, and to some degree he's probably seeing things that aren't there. The repeated stabbing of his quote + quip seems like he's trying to appear very pro-Town by filling up pages and raising his post count, while perhaps saving some of his point for later posts and, uh, not nonuple-posting would actually help more. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this in some ways and it's just an aspect of his playstyle when he replaces in, but it nevertheless makes him lean scum for me. I support the wagon against him.

Don't really feel like voting, I haven't played a game on this site with this many players so I'll wait a bit to see how it works out. I'll remove my RVS vote from Accountant though.

[ unvote]Accountant[/unvote]

I think it's weird you wouldn't want to put a vote out. Mario is nowhere close to lynch and if you really support the wagon, you should want to be on it, no?

[Wanderer-nl]

No I didn't. It made me laugh and hope you really are town this game.

[Wanderer-nl]

Mario, why are you ignoring my post to you?

[Wanderer-nl]

I'd like Mario and Accountant to take a break from each other. I think it's TvT and it's letting scum coast by quietly. I don't have much time right now, have to go in a bit, but won't be long and I'll reread this thread and look at several iso's to break out of this Mario vs Accountant for a while. If either one is scum it will show when we change the subject but I dont think this 'you're scum no I'm not yes you are' is going to help us much further.

[Wanderer-nl]

@performer

Personally can't decipher who's really town or mafia right now.

There's definitely been enough content to at least get a weak read on people. The fact that you don't have any reads at this stage is suspicious.

What do you think of Accountant and Mario?

Since more time has passed and they happened to post more, it seems to be they're both town ( I could be wrong, they could be third party or mafia) from what I could gather on their posts. So far, it looks like they're trying to lead town with scum hunting.

As for Accountant stating Mario is seeing her as proven scum, it looks to me like he's just trying to scumhunt.

I'm leaning slight town so far, on absta101 .

Which posts from Accountant and Mario indicate to you they are scumhunting? And why?
Any early scumreads you wish to share?

[Wanderer-nl]

I've been following the conversation. I have some thoughts I need to unscramble before I post them. I'm not sure I like Akarin's change of mind like that on Silverwolf, I need to make up my mind on a couple of things.

@Silverwolf: About Mario and his Performer-issues, it should have been clear from my questions to Mario that he was confused about the slot. I'm townleaning both of you.

@Slandaar: I remembered it that way. It was subjective. How is that scummy?

Going to bed, will post more when I'm properly woken up.

[Wanderer-nl]

No.

I mixed it up because I agreed with the points, but didn't realise that Akarin had placed her vote on someone that hadn't actually done that.

So Akarin placed her vote on the 'wrong person' so to say, that's not something you'd want to get into?

@All Alone: What's fake in 177? (Pointing to your 178)

@Grayfox: Where did you go? I want your thoughts on the recent Silverwolf vs Akarin and also the earlier Accountant vs Mario vs Silverwolf please.

@Performer: I still have a question out for you in 211.

@Expedience: Appeasing town is usually seen as a scumtell. You did show you were afraid to vote Mario by not voting for him initially. You voting for him after me and Accountant-parrot said something about that reinforces that for me.
What is your read on Accountant?

I was going to look into Accountant as well but she asked to be replaced. I'll post my thoughts on her slot after Expedience explained his read on Accountant.

[Wanderer-nl]

Everyone has their own way of talking, be it serious be it playful, doesn't matter. Use of words, grammar, sentence construction; that's all unique to anyone. I recognized yours. Maybe style would have been more accurate than tone.
Your reactiontest was serious, right? That means you were serious with your opening post even though you weren't being serious about being conftown by making that opening post.

[Wanderer-nl]

Everyone has their own way of talking, be it serious be it playful, doesn't matter. Use of words, grammar, sentence construction; that's all unique to anyone. I recognized yours. Maybe style would have been more accurate than tone.
Your reactiontest was serious, right? That means you were serious with your opening post even though you weren't being serious about being conftown by making that opening post.

So you town or scum-read people based on grammar, sentence structure, and style???

Slandaar is not asking "Can you recognize my writing." You made an alignment read off it looking like previous games. Nitpicking the definition of tone isn't responding to his point.

If you want to interpret it that way, fine, there's not much I can do about it. I never said I had a townread, or any read for that matter, on Slandaar, just that I didn't take his conftown-shit seriously or as a reason for scumreading him.

[Wanderer-nl]

Also, if you are scum reading him, why would his scum buddies quick-hammer anyway?

This^

Can we have a vc please?

[Wanderer-nl]

Anyway, while I haven't commented on later stuff since it isn't really causing me that much reads either way (I may have to read through again tomorrow when I'm slightly less tired and maybe that'll give me a different view on it idk)

What I mean to say here is, well, I was quite tiredly reading through this and, as a result, probably stopped paying as much attention by the last few pages (I noticed I got noticeably fewer - i.e. no - clear ideas from them and that's a bad sign), so I'l read through sometime I'm more awake so that I can actually pay attention. It seems like a lot has happened but I just didn't really pick up on it.

Why did you need to clarify?

[Wanderer-nl]

Eh yeah that post of mine certainly wasn't great, but I also don't think it's important enough to keep bickering about. What do you think of the rest of my iso, Slandaar?

[Wanderer-nl]

Anyway, while I haven't commented on later stuff since it isn't really causing me that much reads either way (I may have to read through again tomorrow when I'm slightly less tired and maybe that'll give me a different view on it idk)

What I mean to say here is, well, I was quite tiredly reading through this and, as a result, probably stopped paying as much attention by the last few pages (I noticed I got noticeably fewer - i.e. no - clear ideas from them and that's a bad sign), so I'l read through sometime I'm more awake so that I can actually pay attention. It seems like a lot has happened but I just didn't really pick up on it.

Why did you need to clarify?

I felt I worded it in a mediocre way. Thought I'd make it clearer.

It was already pretty clear to me. What's weird to me now is that you reworded that part of your post but needed to be asked to clean up the rest of it. Makes me think your priorities are with looking town, not scumhunting.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Slandaar: So basically I'm a nullread with a scummy post?

[Wanderer-nl]

@Expedience: Appeasing town is usually seen as a scumtell. You did show you were afraid to vote Mario by not voting for him initially. You voting for him after me and Accountant-parrot said something about that reinforces that for me.
What is your read on Accountant?

I appeased the town because I didn't want to be suspected. Both town and scum do not want to be suspected. If I'm doing something anti-town, I don't see how it shows scum motive to stop doing it after I'm told that it's bad to do.

Does anyone actually think I was afraid of voting for Mario? Regardless of what your high-tech professional theory book tells you about it being an automatic scumtell or whatever, that's what everyone's implying here. I FoS'ed him in the first place, so why would I be afraid of voting for him? Voting is basically a formality which I generally prefer to use to lynch another player rather than being representative of my suspicions. This is because I believe it can lead to bias in the reads of other players (e.g. they read a player differently if they see that there's already a wagon on them). While giving an opinion alone has a similar effect, it is to a lesser degree because of the black-and-white symbolism of a vote (it's either on someone or off them).

I'm reading Accountant as town. She has been scumhunting with arguments that actually make sense to me, unlike Mario whose hyperaggression seems poorly reasoned. I usually read aggression as town, but in Mario's case his aggression doesn't seem to be helping us.

I don't have a lot of time but I wanted to reply to this before I leave.
I agree with that, I don't like throwing my vote around on anything I see as suspicious. However, you said you were afraid of rbeaching some kind of voting-etiquette. If you really believed this, you would have used this for an explanation to not vote and keep not voting. Now it sounds like this is something you came up with to make yourself look better.

I'm terribly sorry that I don't have more time to finish my thoughts and properly read the posts since last night. I'll do that when I get back home. I'm btw not townreading Accountant, and I'll get into that as well tonight.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Performer: What kind of connection did you see?
Also, Accountant joked(?) about being scum in response to Slandaar's opening posts. Why did you ignore her claim?

77 +1

@Expedience:

*cut*

Does anyone actually think I was afraid of voting for Mario?

*cut*

(A lot was cut from this post, click the link to read the full thing, I hate walls)

@Wanderer, @Accountant: Yes, I see what you mean.

I was more afraid of breaching some kind of different voting etiquette

because there are more scum with capacity to quickhammer. But on day 1 and with this few votes on Mario that wasn't particularly thoughtful of me.

VOTE: MarioManiac4

@Silverwolf: Why would Expedience townread Accountant in his position if they are buddies? (281)
I don't townread Accountant, I think she could be scum because I did see some scummy things, but there are other things that make me wonder and she can't answer anymore. I know I'm being vague, but I want a replacement before I put down all my thoughts.
I'm going afk for a few hours. I've been thinking between this line of text and the last one and I think it sucks that I'm putting off posting my thoughts on Accountant. So I'm going to post them either tonight (depends on how caught up I get in my other activity) or first chance I get tomorrow.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm backing up the intent.

@Silverwolf: At the time you were still scumreading Accountant and I had some issues with scum putting out a townread on a supposed buddy.

The biggest problems I had with a scumread on Accountant:
28 would she be able to pull this off as scum?
117 I liked that last bit, what she said about Performer.

What made me doubt a townread on Accountant:
61 I think she could have done more with that answer from Jake there. She may have missed my vote and that's ok, but she never responded to my response and that's what bugs me about this.
91 93 discrediting town-meta, it would have been nice to have been able to ask her experience with town-meta but to me it kind of felt like she was preventing the use of town-meta at all.
107 Never got back to this.
138 OMGUS on Mario.

And that's all things only Accountant can answer to. Channel replaced in nicely and I'm going to give him a slight townlean for now. It still bugs me Accountant never explained her thoughts on All Alone's vote on Expedience (the 107^) I think Alone's vote was good enough for the stage the game was in at the time.

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: Davsto
That hammer was horrible, man.

[Wanderer-nl]

UNVOTE:

Ok. Just why didn't you give anyone a chance to respond to Expedience's claim yesterday?

[Wanderer-nl]

UNVOTE: GrayFox

Davsto, you haven't considered all the possibilities there. You could have been blocked.

Ah, oops, forgot that. Used to a version of IRC Mafia where you're specifically told if you're Roleblocked.
UNVOTE: Grayfoxxxx
Wait, does this mean I still have my Shot or is it still lost?

Wait, are you throwing away your other options and just assume it was a roleblock?

[Wanderer-nl]

I want to know what Mario meant by 326 before I really react to this

Then wth is this?

[Wanderer-nl]

@Davsto: The way you worded it to me feels like you completely disregarded your earlier options. I started this day with a scumread on you, that makes it a little harder for me to believe you. But I'm really not liking how Grayfox is responding to your claim so yeah, I'm probably going to iso you tonight, maybe redefine my read.

@Grayfox: I'd like that analysis from you now.

[Wanderer-nl]

We won't ask why if you promise to elaborate later, how's that?

[Wanderer-nl]

Although I'm not townreading Wanderer, he definitely deserves looking at. He's just not my top priority.

The way Wanderer responded to Slandaar's push yesterday has him firmly placed at my #2 scum read.

Can you explain what exactly you thought was scummy about my response to Slandaar?
Also, would I want to kill the one person who was scumreading me? That seems stupid, but oh well.

About Davsto: I wasn't feeling all too good about him yesterday (it's actally visible in my iso). Yes, I backed the intent to hammer because at the time I also thought Expedience was scummy too and I was afraid Davsto actually wouldn't hammer. But then Expedience posted a lot and scum would minimize associations so when I saw those posts by Expedience I was ready to unvote, only to realize the thread was locked because Davsto hammered 2 freaking minutes after Expedience's claim. And thát's what my scumread was for. Some of you also seem to have missed I unvoted Davsto immediately after he started posting and joined pushing on Grayfox. I didn't immediately jump on the wagon because I was still scumreading Davsto at the time.

PEdit: new posts showed up while I wrote this that I will read now.

[Wanderer-nl]

PEdit: new posts showed up while I wrote this that I will read now.

Scratch that, I missed an entire page :/

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: Davsto
That hammer was horrible, man.

So why did you think Davsto was scum for this hammer when you stated you intended to hammer Expedience earlier in the game?

UNVOTE:

Ok. Just why didn't you give anyone a chance to respond to Expedience's claim yesterday?

Did you honestly believe that Expedience wouldn't of been lynched if we would of responded to his VT claim?

No, I think we'd have still lynched him. Responses to a claim can be very telling so it would have been nice if we had some.

[Wanderer-nl]

I agree we need to figure out Grayfox' alignment and that's more important than his role, but saying VT isn't necessarily town aligned sounds odd to me too. I feel like Grayfox is comepletely missing the other point made by Silverwolf.

[Wanderer-nl]

Yeah I actually haven't completed that tought yet. Looking at your joindate you're not a newbie, so I would assume you'd know what a VT's job is. So I don't really understand how you're missing that point.

[Wanderer-nl]

409 - a VT Mafia??
419 – Wanderer, he mentioned a VT Mafia, which makes no sense

I honestly think grayfoxxxx believes if he claims VT, that means he's town. Like, I think he really believes that and he may actually be town for thinking like this.

Performer-VT Mafia to me=Mafia Goon. Basically scum with no PR.

VT = vanilla TOWN. Mafia goons are vanilla just like VT's are vanilla. A vanilla cop would get not guilty on both a VT and a VM ie mafia goon.
This was bothering me so thanks for clarifying.

[Wanderer-nl]

Lets stop focussing on this because it's distracting.

@Grayfox: How are those reads coming?

[Wanderer-nl]

400 - what is grok?
409 - a VT Mafia??
410 - if someone says "obvtown," they better back that up fast with a good explanation
419 – Wanderer, he mentioned a VT Mafia, which makes no sense

grok
ɡräk/
verbUSinformal
verb: grok; 3rd person present: groks; past tense: grokked; past participle: grokked; gerund or present participle: grokking

understand (something) intuitively or by empathy.
(It was a new word for me too, not hard to look it up though).

The rest of your points are such huge misrepping of how the conversation went because you seem to be accusing Grayfox of those things while he came up with none of that himself.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Performer: I strongly suggest you READ THE THREAD!!!

You know what else I don't like?

Accountant replaced out of this game due to some RL issues but immediately joined another game and is posting regularly in that one starting 3 days after replacing out of this one.

To me, that means I can't townread CDB.

People leave games for all sorts of reasons. Though it's annoying to me too, on the bright side, CDB isn't inactive.

Accountant stated she had to replace out due to RL-issues. It looks very weird for a player to replace out due to RL-issues and then few days later be online already. A v/la would have sufficed in Accountant's case it appears.
Ofc we still don't know the real reason and maybe she thought she would be gone longer.

400 - what is grok?
409 - a VT Mafia??
410 - if someone says "obvtown," they better back that up fast with a good explanation
419 – Wanderer, he mentioned a VT Mafia, which makes no sense

grok
ɡräk/
verbUSinformal
verb: grok; 3rd person present: groks; past tense: grokked; past participle: grokked; gerund or present participle: grokking

understand (something) intuitively or by empathy.
(It was a new word for me too, not hard to look it up though).

The rest of your points are such huge misrepping of how the conversation went because you seem to be accusing Grayfox of those things while he came up with none of that himself.

You don't think someone could be BP Mafia, Mafia Goon, or some other mafia role, while saying they're VT Mafia? Who on earth would even come up with that? Townies just state they're VT, not something improbable like VT Mafia.

It's funny you suddenly say I'm misrepresenting something when all of day 1, he spoke of following through with a reads list or some sort of analysis. Then on day 2 he talks his way out of doing so.

Sounds to me like you're trying to misrepresent me for genuine scumhunting.

Nobody claimed to be VT mafia. Silverwolf confused VT with vanilla and thought Grayfox' claim could still mean he was mafia, while really he claimed VANILLA

TOWN

[Wanderer-nl]

Expedience (7) - All Alone,

SilverWolf

, absta101, Akarin,

Slandaar

, ChannelDelibird,

Davsto

MarioManica4 (1)-

Expedience

ChannelDelibird (1) - MarioManiac4

Not Voting (4) - Wanderer-nl, Grayfoxxx, Performer

Struck out those I know are not scum.

So, while it's possible it was an all town wagon, I'm thinking it's got a scum on it.

So at least one of All Alone, absta101, Akarin, CDB are likely scum.

Off-at least one of MM4, Wanderer, Grayfoxxxx, Performer are likely scum.

Most mini's of this size have 3 scum so I'm going with that assumption as of right now.

So I'll be ISOing and meta diving some of these folks and seeing what I can find out.

This is a 10 vs 3 town vs mafia mod-confirmed setup. No need to assume, we are certain of this. The rest of this post is kind of duh, so I'm looking forward to what you find. By kind of duh I mean it's pretty obvious this is the case and it looks like you put in work but really you did nothing but copy the vc, crossed out the names of flips and Davsto and yourself, and then make 2 pools of the remaning players. Duh.

[Wanderer-nl]

Second, where does it say anywhere that this is a 10 vs 3 town vs mafia mod-confirmed setup? I've never played in a mini that says what the setup is before hand. Those are open setups. This isn't. How in the hell do you know this? I read the opening posts so it isn't there. Although I did see we only have 12 players where most minis have 13. So how do you know so much? Only scum know what the town v scum set-up is because they know how many scum there are.

Oh shit I mixed that up with another game. Silverwolf, I'm sorry about that.

[Wanderer-nl]

Second, where does it say anywhere that this is a 10 vs 3 town vs mafia mod-confirmed setup? I've never played in a mini that says what the setup is before hand. Those are open setups. This isn't. How in the hell do you know this? I read the opening posts so it isn't there. Although I did see we only have 12 players where most minis have 13. So how do you know so much? Only scum know what the town v scum set-up is because they know how many scum there are.

Oh shit I mixed that up with another game. Silverwolf, I'm sorry about that.

Or you tried to fake a townslip. Is the game ongoing or can you link it? Otherwise, I'll go searching myself later today.

It's ongoing.

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't think we are going to be able to get grayfoxxxx's alignment

Again it's VT

I'm not talking about your role. I'm talking about your alignment.

I really don't like how you did nothing D1. All this analysis incoming shit from you for days, while never delivering on it is straight up BS. You've made a lot of excuses and basically only posted to defend yourself.

The reason I'm not voting you straight up for this is ongoing shit I can't discuss. But I will vote for you if you have another day where you don't do shit. There's no reason, even if you are phone posting, or even if you don't know what's going on in the game, you can't give your opinions on things.

I can't stand lurkers and anti-town players. I want to lynch them in every game I play. So I expect more from you this day phase.

The bolded (I did that), to me that read as you saying that a VT doesn't necessarily have to be town-aligned. Because you can't discuss this, I can't go any further right now.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wanderer

Also, would I want to kill the one person who was scumreading me? That seems stupid, but oh well.

Precisely because he is the only person scum reading you... You could easily point to WIFOM and potentially get away with no suspicion.

Awesome. Thanks for explaining how to play as scum.

But then Expedience posted a lot and scum would minimize associations so

when I saw those posts by Expedience I was ready to unvote

, only to realize the thread was locked because Davsto hammered 2 freaking minutes after Expedience's claim.

You wasn't voting for him so you couldn't have unvoted and stopped the hammer. I mean, you stated intent to hammer yourself, you only do that if you aren't already voting the person.

Also, your reason for calling him town is weak. I don't see how Expedience posting a lot when he was L-1 is enough to turn your scum read of him into a town read. You stated intent to hammer because you were afraid Davsto wouldn't hammer. That's how strong your scum read of Expedience was.

Wait. I really did that? Bah I suck. I wasn't voting Exp and as such I could never have unvoted him.

And no, that's how strong my scumread on Davsto was.

[Wanderer-nl]

Figuring out who knew that Expedience was going to flip town is near the top of my priority list when I get off work later, too. In the meantime, should you wish to metadive me, useful links:

Spoiler: Recent games

As town:

Team Mafia
Eine Kleine Nacht-Mord
Uncouth
Murder on the Oriental Express
DS9 season 1
UK meet invitational 2015
UK meet invitational 2014
Nexlexia

I haven't had as many scum games over recent months/years but here are the most recent:

Reck's Retrospective Rehash (mafia)
Harry Potter 1 (mafia)
999 Mafia (third party)

Did you find anything yet, CDB?

To me meta works best when it involves my own experience with a player. I can't remember how every player on MS responds to every other player on MS, but I can remember how other players engage with me as certain alignments. (I have a really good example of this but game is ongoing..)

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh.
sorry I'm not around I'm hungover from last night and I have too much of a headache to work on this. Expect a decent reply first thing when I wake up tomorrow.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wanderer

Awesome. Thanks for explaining how to play as scum.

You tried to disregard the notion of you as scum killing the only person who scum read you. I simply stated that it isn't a stupid scum move. It's a fine strategy to take considering there wasn't any strong players that needed to be killed by scum.

And no, that's how strong my scumread on Davsto was.

Wait what? You only stated intent to hammer because Davsto is your scum read. I don't understand why you had to state intent because of that. It seems more likely that you would state intent to hammer someone because they are a strong enough scum read to warrant being lynched by you. Can you explain what you mean here?

I was drunk when I made this post.
I stated intent to hammer because I was scumreading Expedience. I was also scumreading Davsto and mistakenly thought we were much closer to DL. I was afraid Davsto wouldn't hammer. Which was stupid, I realize that now. My scumread on Davsto grew stronger when I saw his hammer.

And no, that's how strong my scumread on Davsto was.

Wait a second, wasn't your scumread on me not really a thing until

after

I hammered?

Answered above.

It was already pretty clear to me. What's weird to me now is that you reworded that part of your post but needed to be asked to clean up the rest of it. Makes me think your priorities are with looking town, not scumhunting.

This is the only time she hinted a scum read on Davsto (before the hammer) and it doesn't sound as strong as she says it was.

VOTE: Wanderer
This is better for now.

There was a wagon on Expedience, whom I was also scumreading, so it was of little use to emphasize my scumread on Davsto.

but... but...
greyfox is scum

Grayfoxxxx could just be badtown, to be honest, I'd rather get this out of the way first.

On the other hand, Wanderer-nl claimed that he sheeped my intent to hammer because of his scumread on me (which makes little sense in the first place but idk)

which didn't exist at the time.

VOTE: Wanderer

This is L-1 and stuff, tho. Be careful please, we have a lot of time left. I want to do an ISO on Wanderer first (the Grayfoxxxx one can wait).

I didn't sheep your intent to hammer, I had my own scumread on Expedience. I will repeat this for as long as I have to.
Why are you putting me at L-1 before iso-ing me? Do you know I'm going to flip town? Why can Grayfox wait? Why didn't you iso Grayfox before shooting him?

See how quickly that wagon on Grayfoxxx disappeared?
Don't any of you find it suspicious?

I don't really think it's suspicious. It already started disappearing once it became clear that Grayfox didn't necessarily have to be scum after surviving that vig-shot. The wagon on me built very fast though and I think that's more suspicious. It makes me think there is at least 1 scum, maybe more, on my wagon.

Chirst

UNVOTE:

Why the unvote? In 473 you write you're still scumreading me.

Mario, did you read #400? What do you think of it? I know that GrayFox's iso is 'bad', quote unquote, but I'm not convinced that it comes from a scum mindset. I don't know either way, but it's certainly nagging at me.

This is kind of how I feel too. But Grayfox never commented on the game until he started being wagoned so that to me looks scummy, and he still hasn't posted reads.

[Wanderer-nl]

Then I failed in making clear my scumreads but I figured my pushes on Davsto and Expedience said enough. I'm also scumleaning you, Silverwolf, in case that wasn't clear either. Do you have results from iso-ing and metadiving yet?

[Wanderer-nl]

I already explained that. Why state intent to hammer if you're not going to believe/discuss the claim anyway. 2 minutes between the claim and your hammer. Like you were waiting for it.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'll read the wall at home.
poiny me to where I said exp was suddenly a townread. Because all I remwmber saying is that I would have unvoted if I could to discuss. I also said somewhere I never expected exp to not get lynched. Read my posts pls not what other people are saying about me.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm done repeating myself. Also there are a lot of inconsistencies by now in my iso so I agree I need to be lynched. It's ok, I'm a vt so go ahead.
Performer is scum; he's always having the wagonee as biggest scumread.
Silverwolf is someone to be looked at, she hasn't really done much to figure things out imo.
If Grayfox flips scum, take a look at Akarin as well:

Like akas last post. Gives reasoning that's easy to follow, and follows up with a vote instead of just pointing fingers.

Oh and I never went back to Accountant because I was doubting my scumread due to an ongoing, I thought I said this somewhere and I cba to look it up. I may have forgotten. I'm also not scumreading CDB even though Silverwolf saw Accountant join a new game right after replacing out of this.

VOTE: performer

[Wanderer-nl]

My cold is turning into a flu-like thing and I need rest.
I'm still happy with my vote on Performer. His thoughts seem to conflict with each other.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm not giving up, I'm seeing things the way they are. I'm not going to pretend I haven't been inconsistent because I have. I said my scumread on Davsto was based on his hammer while I was already scumreading him before that. I'd vote someone on that, too. Doubt on my slot isn't going to help anyone but scum so that's why I said you had to lynch me. And that doesn't mean that I want to be lynched.

[Wanderer-nl]

Only if you lynch town today.

And I actually wasn't aware of it maybe being mylo tomorrow.

[Wanderer-nl]

Can Grayfox just be force-replaced so I can at least have a decent 1v1? Because it would suck BIG TIME to lose this to an inactive player and it would even suck more if Grayfox turns out to be town as well.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Akarin: you promised us a catch-up. Where is it?

[Wanderer-nl]

Was he sorry for not getting an analysis up Day 1?

@Performer: You are voting me because you think I had good reason to vote Slandaar. How do you not understand what All Alone said with their post?

[Wanderer-nl]

*vote=NK

[Wanderer-nl]

I kind of want to be lynched so my townflip will prove how wrong you are but since you pointed out it's going to be mylo if we lynch town today I became more survivalistic. Also I become more optimistic each minute I'm not hammered.

[Wanderer-nl]

I think I understand what you mean Silverwolf. Lately it's because I'm having a bad case of the common cold that's really draining. I don't really have the energy right now to read everyone's iso's. I hope I feel better soon and can pick up my game again. I know it's not ideal but it's the way it is and at least I'm here to respond to things.
I feel like All Alone has been thinking for themselves, not sheeped the general stance so to say (you know, like Performer is doing) and that's something I like. I should read their iso more carefully but for now I don't see any danger in leaving them alone.

[Wanderer-nl]

Was he sorry for not getting an analysis up Day 1?

@Performer: You are voting me because you think I had good reason to vote Slandaar. How do you not understand what All Alone said with their post?

Not just that but also because of 378 .

Just did another ISO on All Alone, which post of his are you talking about?

546

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh hit submit too fast. That's not a post from All Alone but your post Performer, where you quoted All Alone and asked for explanation, and that's what I was responding to. In 506 you post your idea of the NK.
And I just noticed something:

*cut*

@CDB-Who do you think would benefit most by a slaander NK?

Seeing as no one has posted any possibilities, I've got a theory on Slandaar's death. My theory of his death is because

a townie perceived him to become a threat later

, somehow. See his posts 105 , 212 , 246 , and 264 relating to Wanderer-NL.

*cut*

Town doesn't kill, right? Shouldn't it be that

scum

perceived him to become a threat?

[Wanderer-nl]

For crying out louds someone give erformer some English lessons because his reading abilities suck,.

[Wanderer-nl]

even though they didn't do it.

Performer, it looks like you forgot to read that part.

[Wanderer-nl]

The only reason town actually benefits is when scum gets NK'ed. It may look like a NK benefits someone (like Slandaar's kill did for me) but that doesn't mean necessarily that I'm the one who did it. All Alone is telling you there are plenty of examples where a NK looked to benefit someone, and then that someone flipped town.

[Wanderer-nl]

This is what I thought would happen after we gave Gray and Akarin more time. They have literally just stalled the day. Other than Performer/Wanderer still looking scummy there isn't anything interesting that's happened.

Really?

Out of the people that are actually posting, Wanderer and Performer are the scummiest. Wanderer's excuses for her play (being drunk or having a cold) could be true but I see them as null seeing as she could easily just say those things as scum. Therefore, we can still only get a valid scum/town read from her earlier plays. I still think she is scum with inconsistencies as evidence of her disingenuous play.

I agree that's a null-tell. Still, when I get questioned on my play this game as opposed to other town-games I tend to want to explain it. I don't agree you can only read me on my earlier posts, I made a lot of new ones too. There was one inconsistency; when I said my scumread on Davsto was because of his quick hammer. I've been very clear I wanted more time after Expedience's claim to get reads from the reactions, I never said I was suddenly townreading Expedience for those posts I only said I would unvote. 413 that was, and also happens to be where my inconsistency happens)

I agree with the wagon on Performer; his reads have been extremely weak. It's obvious that he is trying to avoid committing to reads (He only seems to give reads whenever I call him out on it since the start of Day 1). You can tell he is on the fence a lot, it's supported by the fact that he hasn't used his vote anywhere close to how much an actual townie would/should.

You can check my towngames for it but I don't really throw my vote around easily so I don't use that as a scumtell. But I am bothered by Performer as well, and I'm a little surprised you haven't addressed that.

@Wanderer

- Can you answer my question in #486 please.

I responded to that in 491

[Wanderer-nl]

@absta: I meant that I wanted to know where you stand on my scumread of Performer since you seem to have one too.
Davsto hammered 2 minutes after the claim with readslist. Is 2 minutes enough time to really think about it? Because for me it wouldn't be and still if I didn't believe it I'd wait with the hammer until other players have seen the claim as well and were able to respond to it. The way Expedience posted made me at least doubt my scumread and want to reconsider, not necessarily leading to him not being lynched, but at least getting more reads from the reactions from others. Why do I have to keep repeating this?

[Wanderer-nl]

You can check my towngames for it but I don't really throw my vote around easily so I don't use that as a scumtell.

It's not just the fact that he isn't using his vote, it's that he doesn't show ANY interest in finding scum. He is just in the background letting everyone else do the work. When I asked Performer to give reads in Day 1 he said something about not having any scum reads which just seems like bullshit to me. I don't see how it's hard for town to have scum reads. When you are town you have a certain amount of suspicion, something which Performer isn't showing at all imo.

Shouldn't this actually make me less scummy than Performer? Or does my one inconsistency weigh that heavy?

[Wanderer-nl]

Uhm well I don't know maybe by talking to me about it so you know whether I'm talking shit or not?

[Wanderer-nl]

I like to provide reasoning while dropping a big list.

You know, go ahead and skip the "BUT WHY?", part of the process.

[Wanderer-nl]

Seeking a Replacement for Akarin who has asked to be replaced.

Ok just read this

Does that mean you don't have an opinion on that slot?

[Wanderer-nl]

I think we should lynch soon. I'd like to lynch Performer, but I can certainly go for Grayfox because he said he's been getting better feelings of my iso Day 2 yet he's still voting me.

[Wanderer-nl]

Forgetting which game you are in... When you have just quoted a post with the playerlist in it... Really?

Yes, really.

This post annoys me too "Only if YOU lynch town..." So are you not part of town then?
And, that AtE, just Ugh!

People were lynching me, I wasn't lynching me, I am town. My choice of words in this particular situation was correct. We should lynch Performer today, you shouldn't lynch me. See the difference?
It was a response to 535 and 534.

I actually kind of like the rest of your catch-up, except the Performer-bit. Other than saying he should have been a PL, you don't really say much about Performer. Or to Performer. What's your actual read on him?

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wanderer-Are you still scumreading me?

Not a lot but kind of. Would like to get to that tomorrow.

[Wanderer-nl]

Cool!
VOTE: Octopus

[Wanderer-nl]

@davsto: also 68.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Davsto: I felt 68 was an association between the two, so that's why I made a mental note of it. It's basically the only *read* he posts Day 1.
397 is his only interaction with Akarin and it could be SvS, Akarin says she prefers Grayfox and at that point in the game I can see at least one scum bussing a buddy. She never voted there though, and she went into lurk-mode until getting replaced.
597 Akarin is safely in the middle of the readslist. 615 no comments on Akarin from Grayfox as he sees that she's getting replaced.
Now hesitant to vote Octopus.

PEdit: lots, reading up.

[Wanderer-nl]

Well my theory about Grayfox and Octopus was completely shot to space when Octo flipped town. I think I'm going to follow my gut and say Grayfox is town.
I have a doctor's appointment so will be back later.

[Wanderer-nl]

Looking at all the vc's, if I had to choose between absta and all alone, I'd say All Alone is scum because they moved their vote from me to Performer, while I started that wagon. That seems a little weird.
Now I was looking at this before I saw Mario's claim, and the fact Silverwolf was hesitant to lynch Performer all day until she hammered bothered me, but her saying she played scummy on purpose made me push that thought away. Now with Mario's claim and Silverwolf vs absta, I think I'm just going to ignore the entire claim and read some iso's and make my reads based on that.

It also bothers me she says I'm a vt

and

town. VT is a townrole: vanilla

TOWN

but I guess she's doing it on purpose because the entire mix-up always looked awkward and now she is just trying to maintain and I'm sure she knows better.

Nobody better be at L-1 before I get back to do my reads.

[Wanderer-nl]

WTF?
I'm a 2-shot Commuter.
I commuted last night, but still have a commute.

What made you decide to use your power to commute last night?

I'll post more after dinner.

[Wanderer-nl]

Looking at all the vc's, if I had to choose between absta and all alone, I'd say All Alone is scum because they moved their vote from me to Performer, while I started that wagon. That seems a little weird.

Silverwolf, can you give me your opinion on this please?

[Wanderer-nl]

I saw that from absta and that's why I changed my mind. And that's also why I quoted a small part from my previous post for you to answer.

(And in my experience VT is explicitly a town-role. The mafia vanilla-counterpart is vanilla goon)

[Wanderer-nl]

O shoot.
Intent to vote Mario.
I don't have anything to add right now, I'm happy to go with what Silverwolf suggested.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh ffs new page..

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't really see why this should be dragged out any longer.

VOTE: Mario
L-1

[Wanderer-nl]

VOTE: absta

And that was hammer.

[Wanderer-nl]

Looking at all the vc's, if I had to choose between absta and all alone, I'd say All Alone is scum because they moved their vote from me to Performer, while I started that wagon. That seems a little weird.

Silverwolf, can you give me your opinion on this please?

I have no idea why a scum!All Alone would take her vote off an easy mislynch-I mean you were under a lot of suspicion-and put it on one of her buddies. That doesn't make sense from a scum perspective.

I will re-ISO her to make sure and absta too but I am leaning absta as last scum based on his reaction to my claim. I mean, he pretty much said I'm scum with Mario and fakeclaimed cop to frame my buddy and somehow I have 3 results, every night I live I'll have to have more (plus, a reason to be alive) and when those people keep flipping town, somehow I'd survive LyLo and win the game. Like, In what Universe does this even make sense as scum play? Then he talks about my scummy play which I already explained was because CDB's hard townread on me was making me nervous about being the NK. Then he says me claiming cop today makes sense instead of tomorrow-hell, I would of claimed it yesterday if given a chance. absta is setting up a 1v1 with me where All Alone calmly explained why absta and mario make sense as a team from a NK analysis standpoint. She was also the second vote on the Performer wagon which is more likely to be town than scum from what I've seen in games. I'm not ruling out bussing, but I don't think that is super highly likely either.

^This.

[Wanderer-nl]

Btw, I'm not an easy misslynch.

[Wanderer-nl]

Thanks for modding!

Had fun

[Wanderer-nl]

Hey, I had a guilty on absta today.

Yeah I read in the dead thread and mod thread. You were awesome!